Two Brandons, Two Movies — Intentionally Blank Ep. 252

Brandon Mull joins Brandon Sanderson for this special episode! Mull talks about his upcoming books and the Fablehaven movie, while Sanderson goes into the struggles of writing a screenplay. From movies to games, you'll have plenty of entertainment on this episode of Intentionally Blank!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hey Mole. Hey Sanderson.

SPEAKER_03 0:07

Welcome to the podcast again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Yeah. I'm glad I'm glad to be on. This is great.

SPEAKER_03 0:12

Uh we have you in the studio. Last time we just did a live episode, right? Uh, or were we in the studio? Donald, have we had Mole in the studio before? We have. We did some very fun episodes. All right. It's good to have you back.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Yeah, it was a studio. I'm was it this same room? No, you were at the old office. It would have been a different place.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Yeah, but it looked similar. Right. This is at the new office. So I thought this was new, yeah. For those who don't know, this is this is the other Brandon, or I'm the other Brandon because you published first, right? When did you publish?

SPEAKER_00 0:38

We're about the same, man. Like I was 2006, was the first one. Okay, so I was first.

SPEAKER_03 0:42

So you do get to I was 2005. By just a smidge, you get to be the other Brandon. Um this is Brandon Mole, he writes uh the Fable Hazen Haven series. Um and you've got the new book coming out next month. Yeah. Depending on when it comes out.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Yeah, that's right. Like it comes out in April. So it's in April.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

And this is the one that I've been reading. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Yeah, that's right. It's called Guardians.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

It's epic fantasy. Yeah, yeah. Instead of uh instead of why most of what you've done is actually middle grade. And this is this is straight up epic fantasy.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Look, man, it's it's gonna be shelved like it's middle grade. Oh, is it? But they get but but it's me cheating, you know what I mean? Because the characters are young, yeah. And they're like grandfathering me in. Uh-huh. But but yes, you you you you saw exactly what I was doing, which was like I had this idea that was kind of epic fantasy, and uh and because I had enough credibility in middle grade, it's like, well, let's just kind of write an epic fantasy where the characters are middle grade aged. Okay. That's exactly what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

So it's gonna be shelved next to the Fable Haven books.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Yeah, it'll be it'll be it'll be shelved in in middle grade through Random House, through Penguin Random House. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

That's interesting because I was reading, I'm like, the this could go either way because it it it reads like a lot of epic fantasy has young protagonists. I mean, Frodo's not young by age, but he's young by a hobbit age. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

And and by feel, right? Yeah, yeah. So no, fully agreed. And I I'm so glad it felt that way to you because that's what I was after, man. Like like like like I had this idea that you know how you have your you have like your skill set. Uh-huh. And inside of my skill set, this was my masterpiece idea. Okay. You know what I mean? Like, like where I thought I could do some of the things I do best and and some of the themes I'm most am interested in. I could express that in some of the coolest ways inside of this story. So it's been cooking in my head for a very long time. Uh-huh. And hopefully that'll show as like the payoffs start rolling out and everything, you know. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

So it's just it's called Guardian.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Guardians is the series title. The book title, it book one is for the The Forbidden Mountain. Okay. Is the title of book one. Yeah. But yeah, so I'm almost done with book two. Because you know how the book world is.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

You're usually we were talking before, and he's like, Oh, I have these terrible revisions. I'm like, Oh, how big, how big is book two? What's the cause the word count of book one's pretty big for you? It's pretty chubby. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, is what have what book one 150?

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Yeah, it's about 150, and book two is about 140. Okay so so I didn't go thicker, but I stayed in the same neighborhood, which all those for me is you know, that's like maybe some of my book fives get close. Yeah, but I think this will these are some of my longest books. And hopefully, like look when I describe my stuff, I've got certain books that are like I help make readers for everybody else. Yeah, like Fable Haven Book One, that that helps make readers. That that takes some reluctant readers into being readers, right? Um for for the kind of kids where hey, this is my first thick book, not guardians, right? Right? Like, like, like for the kind of kids that burn through books, yeah, guardians will be this huge treat. Right. And it'll also be good for um yeah, for adults and people like like like the kids that read my books and their kids and grew up, this one will work for them, I think. You know what I mean? It'll be sufficiently complex and an interesting world and and some really cool problems.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

So I always say if someone wants to to try a mole book, I I give them candy shop war. Um that's the that's the one that I just think, you know, if you're an adult and you haven't tried moles books, I mean Fablehaven's great. Um Fable Haven's a blast. Uh, but I usually pick that one. It just feels a little more self-contained, um, even though there are sequels now.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Yeah, yeah. But but candy shop war, look, what what's fun about Candy Shop War is it's almost a slightly different species of fantasy, right? Like like so much fantasy we're out in the woods. Yeah. But Candy Shop War is fantasy in suburbia, you know, where maybe like something wicked this way comes or something like that, you know, fantasy in a normal town, but with really weird stuff going on, and like kind of just fun and loose on the rules of magic, so that there's all sorts of things that are possible and almost like uh fantasy Goonies, maybe, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Yeah, yeah, that feels about right. Yeah. Uh so if I can ask, I'm curious, Mole. You Fable Haven was basically what you and Ranger's Apprentice were the big two that got me into reading. What would be your pitch to someone like me who read Fable Haven? I'm not like, I don't know, 14 going into uh into Guardians.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Into Guardians? Yeah, man. I I could say this. If you've done like my Fable Havens and you saw that I could build like a good crescendoing story, imagine me doing that a little more epic, right? Okay, like like like it's it is for the kind of people who like my books who want to see like what happens if Mole like swings for the fences. It's just three books, but like three mighty books, like mighty, mightier, mightiest, kind of right. Okay, and so like you know, if if I've got a masterpiece in me for the kind of thing I do, it's probably this stuff, you know? Okay, it probably is. And and I'm like like Random House is excited about it, they're very excited about book two. So it's gonna get a decent marketing push, but like at the end of the day, it all what what totally matters is when someone cracks it open, is it fun and cool and do they get swept up in the world? And so that's that's what I'm trying to do, man.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Cool. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

Thanks for thanks for asking for the pitch. Yeah, like it's like uh your basic premise, because I've I said a lot about it without saying a premise, but you've got this race of people called the Inorans, okay, and they can partner with spiritual guardians. And some of these spiritual guardians have different powers, and some are more dangerous than others, and you've got this kid that will partner with a very interesting guardian, and and it leads to a you know, a big conflict with light and darkness and good and evil, and and uh and hopefully a kind of an original, interesting world, and and a lot of the problems are kind of like what about what happens when organized evil infiltrates your society, and so you're trying to root it out instead of fight like a foreign power, that kind of thing, right?

SPEAKER_03 6:22

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

So so there'll there'll be a lot of that. Cool, I'm super hype.

SPEAKER_03 6:27

Um, have you ever like I know your improv background is helpful as a writer because what we're doing is improving in a lot of ways. Yeah but have you ever thought about writing a book about like your characters are in uh in use improv? Like, like have you ever right? Like, that's such an interesting thing in your background. The first I ever knew of Mole um was going to some of I mean it's not fully improv, it's sketch writing that the first that I knew, but I know you do improv also. But sketch comedy was your thing, like your sketch comedy writing stuff. The first I ever knew was I went to just the sketch comedy troupe that he wrote for uh long before we met, and they threw glow sticks at us and did funny things.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it was called Divine Comedy, it was at BYU, and it was uh yeah, that was my first education in writing for an audience. And so, like what was beautiful about that experience was I I didn't realize how useful it would be for writing novels to have gone to sort of like multiple years of comedy boot camp where you're you're writing skits, so it's so it's all dialogue, right? Yeah, it's like it's like going to dialogue camp, right? It's all dialogue, and if it's tight and funny, the audience laughs, and if it's not, they don't. And so you have this incredible feedback system to help you develop um an ear for writing tighter and funnier, right? Because it's a bunch of like BYU students, they paid their like three bucks or whatever. They want the, you know, they brought a date, they want, they want their funny show, and yeah, it's gotta be funny or they won't laugh, right? And so, and so yeah, I spent about five years working my butt off trying to figure out how to how to how to make funny skits, and it was shocked how much that translated into trying to write humor into my scenes, right? And so this idea of using improv in my books, to some degree, if my characters come to life and are kind of funny and have good banter, a lot of that has its roots in the community. I mean, it is one of your strengths comedy.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

Yeah, um, I really uh feel in the kind to say. I'm glad an outsider's saying that, yeah. No, I mean it was my favorite part of Fablehaven was the banter between the siblings. Yeah. Uh and so I just I'm curious about that. Like, did that did you ever have like Hollywood aspirations back in the day? For myself? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

Like to write or to or to act? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. To uh as a little kid, my mom wanted me to act, right? Really? Because I was weirdly bright as a little kid.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

Isn't that different from the way most parents are? They're like, don't be an actor, it's terrible.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Your parents my mom was trying to get me out there because she just she saw I had a skill set, right? Uh-huh. So so I had like little headshots and little resumes and did a lot of plays and that kind of thing. So part of my background was being a little kid who did plays.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

But but yeah, the part of my brain that that I wanted to develop was the writing part, right? Because what nobody knew was the imagination I had, right? And so, yeah, you know, I never thought super hard about Hollywood when I was a young writer because I liked the solo aspect of novels. I like the fact that I didn't have to like try to convince a team to get behind an idea, and I could just like go, well, this is cool to me, and I'm just gonna make it and no one can stop me.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

I mean, that's the best part about uh being a novelist, right? Yeah, like I'm working on the Mistborn screenplay right now, and there are advantages to having lots of people looking at it and giving you advice and knowing that you know you're gonna have to sell them on your version of it. Yes. Uh, because it does push you. Um and you know, they all always say in Hollywood, best idea wins. Um when that's going well, best idea wins. When it's going poorly, it's not the best idea, it's just a different person's idea. Yeah, yeah. That's very hard for novelists. And I I fully expect that won't happen on the Mistborn screenplay. But it's happened in the past on other things I've worked on in Hollywood. It's just you know, you have a difference in of opinions. There's a lot of cooks in the kitchen. It's very difficult to have different tastes. What is best. But uh with books, it's just like the editor comes in and says, Change this, you try it. If it's wrong, you go back and say, Nah, my version's better. And they just have to live with it.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you have so much more control. But like, uh you know what? Like, but I love the idea of creating stuff for for Hollywood. I love that idea. I just it wasn't my original aspiration.

SPEAKER_03 10:50

Because uh you are now you're gonna do you're gonna go this whole crowdfund uh a movie route. Well, that's that's a piece of it. Yeah, yeah. It's a piece of it. The the crowdfund's paid for the whole movie, but it is part of the part of the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

It's it's these filmmakers who are hustlers, you know what I mean? And and like, you know, any decent filmmaker has part has part hustler, right? Because you you gotta, it's like uh Moulin Rouge, right? You gotta like con the money into funding the thing, you know? And so so so these guys have have been working hard and smart, and they've got you know traditional investors and they've they've found a distributor and and they're and they're also trying to supplement everything with crowdfunding, and they're they're doing a great job. They're creating cool merch and they're trying to like get fans engaged. I like like the moxie and the effort, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 11:38

That should be going right now. We're not 100% sure when we're recording this, when this episode will go, but the crowdfund should be going theoretically when this goes live. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:49

It should be about synced with this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

Do you know is it Kickstarter? Is it Backer Kit? Is it their own? Backer Kit. It's Backer Kit. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Backer Kit's the thing, and yeah, they're creating like fun stuff you can get, and it's a way to you know try to pump up the budget. Because obviously, on a first movie, when it's kind of an indie, the the the more they pump up that budget, the the more they can do, right? But but yeah, they're getting yeah, it it keeps moving forward. It feels like this kind of Don Quixote quest that these filmmakers have, uh where they're like uh they're punching a little above their weight class as far as just trying to make everything work, and like, but they're doing a killer job. And these guys they wrote a great screenplay. Did they? And that's that's the most important part. And that's part of the strength of the whole thing. That's partly why it's it's finding backers and it it found a home at the at the distributor. And on the strength of their screenplay, it almost got made at other places. And then this just kind of made sense. It's getting made at a place called Angel Studios that has had recently some pretty good success. That they've actually pushed some stuff out nationally pretty well, and uh, and Angel Studios will really support the family-friendly side of it, which was what was getting very choppy in Hollywood. Like, like, like part of why I wrote Fable Haven was when I was a kid, my parents would like bring home a family-friendly DVD or something, or f or family-friendly video cassette, you know, when I was actually a kid, and it would have like a dog in it and it would be kind of bland, you know what I mean? It was like like like what was good about the movie was what was not in it. Yeah. Right? Like, and like but like kind of what was in it was like, ah, it could have been better, right? And so part of my goal when I wrote Fable Haven was I wanted to write something that was really family friendly, that like kids and parents could read together and everyone would would would would have a good time, but but actually have a good time, right? I wanted it to be gross, I wanted to be scary, I wanted to be cool, I wanted it to be fun, and so like you know, make something family friendly that is good. And and I knew that was possible because there's it happens sometimes, right? And and people do make some of the early Pixar movies or things like that, where it's just yeah, this kind of works for everybody. Toy Story is just fun if you're old or young, right? And so, you know, I was trying to live in that space. Harry Potter, it's fun if you're old or young, right? And so when it when it looked like in the Hollywood system that that was gonna get stripped out of it, maybe the family-friendly side of it, I I was I was I had probably never been that professionally panicked in like the last 10 years, you know, because I was like, oh man, you're gonna like take take one of my coolest things and like like from my point of view, ruin it, like ruin part of why I did it, you know? And and so uh, but here at Angel, it's it it's being really supported as being family friendly. That's kind of part of their mission as a studio, and so I don't know, man. Like, like hopefully we'll kill it. There's also like almost a spiritual parallel between this movie and the and the book, Fablehaven. Uh-huh. Because Fablehaven was my first published book.

SPEAKER_03 14:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

And when it was published, it was from a small Utah publisher, Shadow Mountain. And um, and even like my sister Summer was helping me on the marketing. And now, after like 15 years at Adobe, my sister Summer is back happy helping me on the on the marketing because she's home with kids now. She finally had a couple kids. And and it might be a small Utah distributor that launches this movie.

SPEAKER_03 15:11

And when I say small, I mean relatively, because you know I mean they were involved in the chosen, and that's uh a mega hit.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Chosen was a mega hit. Yeah, the Sound of Freedom was a pretty darn big hit. I mean, it was it hit in the hundreds of millions. Yeah, and so they've had some pretty big hits and they've had some mid-size hits, and they're doing it in kind of a rough market, and so yeah, there's reason to hope, you know? And so you just yeah, we'll we'll see what they do.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

How much do you want to be involved?

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Oh, I'm I'm a I'm a paid consultant on the film.

SPEAKER_03 15:38

A paid consultant, okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

So so so it's like so so there's a seat at the table contractually built in, right? And and then on top of that, the main thing you're trying to do, and you know this because you because you've you've got your story worlds in development too, but like you want to be useful, right? Because it because sort of like best idea wins, yeah, um in that same thing. If you're gonna be involved with the movie, help the movie. Right. You know what I mean? And and if you're helpful and smart and reasonable, then they'll contract or not, they'll want to work with you more than if you're like problematic, you know?

SPEAKER_03 16:15

Yeah. Um, yeah, I I I find it it's been a really interesting process this last time. Uh you probably haven't been following it, but with Mistborn that we're doing right now, I'm writing the screenplay currently.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Yeah. Tell tell me what you're learning, or tell me about that experience.

SPEAKER_03 16:30

Well, I uh so maybe as early as 10 years ago, when I started to get see some bad screenplays based on my works come in, um, there was one that was just really bad. I won't say what it is because I'm you know, I don't want to be kind to be kind, but there was one that came in really bad, and I'd always thought, man, I don't want to be uh Michael Jordan playing baseball. Yeah, good point. Do you know what I mean? I know exactly what you mean. The author understands the metaphor immediately, but I'll explain it a little bit anyway. Please. And for those who don't know, Michael Jordan, the you know, during our era was the the basketball goat, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Yeah, the most legendary NBA player, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:11

He always wanted to play baseball because his dad loved baseball. So he went to play baseball. Um in the middle of when he could have still been playing basketball. There's all sorts of conspiracy theories that you know that he that why he did it. But the official story, which I have no reason to personally dis discount, was he said, My dad loved baseball. I want to see if I can play baseball. Um, and uh there's a really good uh documentary called Michael Jordan Rides the Bus about it, uh, if you want to watch as part of the the ASPN uh mini documentary series. But uh anyway, he um he was fine at baseball. He was the goat in basketball. Uh and I'm not making this metaphor to say I'm the goat, and but you know, I I'm good at writing what I write.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

Yeah, and you would say you're really good at writing fantasy novels. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

Right? Um I think that's been decided. And he went to play baseball and he was good enough for the minors. Yeah. Which most people who want to play baseball are not good enough for the minors. So that's respectable.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

It's a respectable, exciting amount of talent.

SPEAKER_03 18:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

But unless you're Michael. You're the best guy in the world at basketball. And people sing songs about how you look when you dunk.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

Yes. Um, and I always told myself, I don't want to be that, right? I don't want to. I I I I should let the experts at writing screenplays write the screenplays, but then the screenplays came in and they were not good. Now, me, you know, just over and over, and I'm like, I I could do better than this. Um now to manage my hubris, I went and I wrote a couple of screenplays, and they were terrible, and I had to learn the format. Um my first one was as big a disaster as my first book was, which was kind of interesting. I thought it would have been a little easier to transfer my skills over. Uh, but I got pretty good at it pretty quickly. Uh and I wrote like four or five screenplays during the those years. So when it finally came here to Mistborn um at Apple, I said, um, as part of the contract negotiations, I'm writing a screenplay. Um, at least the first draft. Um Yeah, let me have my crack at it, right? Let me have my crack at it. Let me prove I can do it. Um and uh so you know that was part of the deal negotiations.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Is that done? Is the is the is the screenplay done?

SPEAKER_03 19:24

I mean no screenplay is not done. Uh I've still working on it. I I hit uh 25% um on my weekly update the the week that I that we're recording this.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Okay, cool, cool, cool.

SPEAKER_03 19:34

So you're you're into it. Yeah, yeah. I'm I'm basically polishing off act one. Um and so And this is book one of Mistborn? Book one of Mistborn adapted as a feature film. So yeah, and that's that's what I've been doing. Uh it's been my life lately, is uh how do I adapt Mistborn? Uh I'll tell you what is easier than I thought it would be.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Tell me, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:55

Shrinking the story to fit.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Yeah, yeah, I wondered about that. Easier than I thought it would be.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

And it's uh it's a 200,000-word book, right? So um people look at me and they I like to write long books. Uh and they they look at me and and think, well, Brandon will have trouble writing short. And very short, yes. I'm no good at flash fiction, um, but I'm pretty good at novellas. I've won a Hugo on the novella category. Um, and I'm pretty good at saying, This is the size of the story that I want to write. Let's write it that length. And I found when I sat down to work on Mistborn, building the treatment, the outline for it, yeah, that instantly transferred. Like I was able to be like, all right, if I had to write Mistborn, uh, because a screenplay is about 20,000, 30,000 words, right? Okay. Um, yeah. And I'm like, that's since a lot of the description goes by faster. It's like, I need to essentially write a version of Mistborn that works as like a 70,000, 80,000 word novel.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Um Yeah, this is how you're thinking about it.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

Yeah, it's how I'm thinking about it. I'm like, how would I do that? And I built this treatment. Uh, and obviously, there's other things you think about with a screenplay. Not just, you know, it's not you're not just writing a novel. You have to do it visually and all these sorts of things. But I found it was much easier to get it into the the the size that I wanted. Um than you expected. Yeah, and I mean it will be a longer film, right? We're not we're not making a 90-minute film. Uh, right, right. Um, but uh structurally, it's all working. What's uh what's hardest is that show versus tell. The way that you show versus tell, I mean, you've done it with your sketches, um, in a visual medium is so different from what you can do in a book. How do you show characters' emotions? And how do you not overwrite that in the screenplay? Because the director's the gonna direct the actors. How much do you trust the actors? How much do you just leave the words on the page? Uh, all of that is uh the real challenge.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

So much of a screenplay is a big trust fall. Because because it because it's not it's not the end product right it's a tool to create a movie and so so when you like like there's not gonna be a lot of people saying I want to read that screenplay Brandon Sanderson wrote you know there might be a few because because you're so well known as a novelist but but for the most part that's just a tool right and then there'll be this team of people who have to make that make it all work make it all come to life that's I I have messed around with screenplays and written a few. Yeah yeah yeah like back when I was early as a writer when I didn't know what direction everything was going to go yet you know I experimented and partly because I had a friend who liked to make movies and so he was like oh make me a screenplay and I was like okay this would be a fun challenge you know I assume oh go ahead oh yeah so it was like I don't say I've mastered the craft or figure it out. I'm not even sort of saying that I'm just saying I I've I've dabbled enough that I've written a couple features and that let me at least know the structure or the form.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

It's smart. Like when I started writing these I didn't think I would eventually be writing Mistborn I just thought I should be able to give feedback that's useful.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

And then as I worked on I'm like no I think I could do this someday.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Yeah yeah as you became conversant with the form. But yeah one of the things that I think hardest about is how do I make this into the tool that will produce the result I'm after. Right. And a lot of that is in dialogue I think. You know what I mean? Like where the writer has clout inside of a screenplay is with the dialogue.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

Do you have a director built in at Angel over there or do you will you do this and then get a director or do you have a director that's already attached?

SPEAKER_00 23:33

No there's a dude there's a cam Cameron Sawyer is is is going to be directing it and he is it's what I'm saying he's he's a pretty young guy. Well young guy as far as um he is this will be his first major feature. Like he's uh he's been hungry and he's been pursuing this for years. Oh yeah and this is his chance to to show his quality right like like like like to prove himself and so I I I I hope he just kills it. Because what he has done is he and his partner his writing partner created a really solid screenplay that gave me lots of hope which was why I optioned to them in the in the first place was on the strength of the screenplay and on the strength of a couple of their of their connections and backers. And uh it was I'm glad it did because they these guys have proved really faithful to the story and now they're charging hard trying to make it happen.

SPEAKER_03 24:27

You know it's awesome. I'm I'm watching really interesting the crowdfunding um portion of films. Because as we talked earlier it's very difficult to crowdfund an entire film. But what you do is you crowdfund a part of the film to make the film better. Just the way that crowdfunding currently works. A lot of people want me to crowdfund the the Mistborn films. I'm like no I that's not it's I don't want to be in charge of your money in that regard. Yeah in that way that makes sense when I crowdfund a book I'm like I know I can deliver a fantastic book. Yeah I don't know if I could make on my own if you gave me that money that I'd be the best steward of it for making a film because um there's a here's a here's here's another weird example. When we want to start our company when we wanted to like officially register Dragon Steel. Okay. I made a mistake just a small mistake but a mistake. I went to a friend who's an attorney because I know you had to have an attorney draw up these papers and said hey can you draw up papers for us starting a business and she's like yeah I think I could learn to do that. And I said well make sure you know you know you you actually charge us for it. Don't do it for free because we're friends. She's like totally I won't it ended up being more expensive um than if I'd just gone around the corner to somebody because uh the people around the corner that's all they do all day they've already learned how to do it. Where my friend had to figure it out. She did an excellent job but she had to take more time to learn how to do hours more hours and I didn't want to shortchange her. And I realized from that I'm like if your friend already does the thing you can maybe have him do it. But learning it is right and that's kind of what like I would be if you had me make the film myself if I didn't have a partner if they if I crowdfunded Mistborn I would be like that friend of mine who has to now had to learn how to do because you know she was a litigator not a not a business uh attorney and so I would have to spend your money making mistakes in order to learn how to make a film myself. Right. Uh and you know comfortable with that yeah that that money is better spent uh other other ways let's save your money and then we'll put it in theaters and you can go see it. That's that's where you should spend your money. In my case I'm not doing the crowdfunding you're not that's why I'm watching really closely because there are a few companies uh like Angel Studios that have grown up around hey what if we did this ourselves outside the system or halfway in the system halfway out uh and they're using crowdfund and it's possible that this becomes a major way that films get made.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Yeah no it's it's an interesting thing it's it's more of a thing than it used to be for sure. Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:05

And I and like you I'm curious too I think that I'm pretty sure that the um the uh uh what's what's it called um Vox Machina um uh animated show was crowdfunded am I right on that Donald? Yes it had a major crowdfunding aspect and that's um I mean that's an animated TV show yeah but I mean that the crowdfunding aspect of that was a huge component of it and it was very successful and turned out very well.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

So yeah you know I I think what we'll probably end up finding is that just like in traditional Hollywood studio films, some will be good and some will be bad and it's just gonna depend, right? Like like film has never been a safe investment. Yeah you know if if you're wearing an investor's hat.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Right? But it can also but it's like it's like a gambler's investment. Because sometimes they pay off beautifully sometimes they pay off awesome sometimes it's a total disaster. But that's part of the fun in funding art, right? Like like like let's see what we get. I I'm I'm glad that our society um likes to fund art. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 28:07

For now maybe eventually it'll just turn into AI and you know they'll push a button rather than funding it. Yeah who knows right like like with the AI who knows but like like like I think like we'll we'll always need our human aspect right you'll you'll always oh I believe that but I'm just joking with the uh the the the doom and gloom that seems to potentially be our future is uh frightening.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

Yeah yeah we'll all just hook into AI and it'll remix our greatest hits for us right uh do you um who are your favorite uh like filmmakers like what are your favorite movies? Oh yeah like that kind of thing yeah I'm all over the place you know and and I write I write uh you know like kid friendly stuff but I don't only watch for kid friendly stuff but like like I mean my some of my favorites you could almost guess like I love Lord of the Rings so much like any card carrying kind of nerdy guy you know like I thought it was so killer good um but but I and I love Star Wars like I love some of the mainstream big hit things like The Matrix and Star Wars and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

But I think of the Star Wars uh prequels and sequels where do you stand on them? Or is your what's your ranking of Star Wars films? Just real quick yeah yeah yeah really they already know mine. What's yours?

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Yeah look like Best Star Wars film number one best Star Wars film it might be the Empire Strikes Back. It's Empire? Okay for you. Yeah I I really like the Empire Strikes Back number two and and number two would be uh uh probably the original probably New Hope like like I just like that so much uh um but then like I don't know man three was pretty good episode three was pretty good like episode seven was okay okay you know what I mean like was pretty strong like like episode nine I didn't like you know what I mean like like did that give you the spectrum is nine the bottom nine's the bottom for me's the bottom yeah yeah I just felt like it was like trying to do too much nine is the bottom for me too when I say that painfully uh knowing JJ and knowing what he went through trying to get that film together and things like that. And look and look seven was was strong and hopeful I thought you know what I mean and and and for me even eight had its moments like like like like like the people who talk about eight and go like yeah but Luke should have been cool right see I'm one of those people we can disagree on this let's go no I was gonna say I can sympathize with that like like like that's my complaint right like like Luke Luke should have been cool. But if he wasn't gonna be cool they did it in an interesting way at least you know what I mean and that and that was something and and and and part of what I liked about 8 was it broke the formula it wasn't like I got what I was expecting. Yeah I mean that is the the strength of eight is it it plays with those ideas yeah I mean like like like those aspects I liked but but would I have rather seen Luke just being super awesome somehow like in a in a in a different way than he had his awesome moment he had his hero moment but it was like you know so bittersweet and so kind of kind of like like like like faded such faded glory.

SPEAKER_03 31:04

I definitely was one of those that I'm like he was my childhood hero. I there are great stories you can tell about an old master who has gotten jaded I've seen that movie a hundred times that part isn't new to me.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Yeah did we need Luke to be that guy do we need to be Luke to be that guy um and you could have been a little bit that guy and then and then come out you know what I mean and then come out like a lion.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

But um but we've talked about that at nauseam on this channel. I just wanted to get your take. So all right so that we that gives us a metric. You and I sit in similar places. I actually like um Return of the Jedi more than most people do. Return of the Jedi was good though. Yeah go on uh I just the Luke Vader fight as a culmination of what you've been watching for three episodes is so powerful to me. Awesome. Yeah and it that elevates it to be my favorite though I admit it is structurally inferior to the first two to uh to New Hope but but that last payoff was just so good that you're like I don't care.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Exactly yeah Ewoks were kind of like teddy bears I don't care.

SPEAKER_03 32:05

Exactly I don't care the Ewoks are teddy bears and we're redoing Vietnam with Ewoks um what I care about is the the Luke thing landed so much for me. Yeah you're you're right it was one of it was one of the great payoffs what are your what are your dark horse favorites that like people wouldn't expect for you um like look I love like like almost everything Tarantino's made is really cool to me. I could I could have guessed that knowing that you like the sketch comedy and things like that. Like Tarantino is just very very good in that way. What's your favorite Tarantino then?

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Oh what's my favorite I don't know man like I mean I really like Inglorious Bastards uh when he called it his masterpiece he might have been right you know what I mean or when when the guy at the end of the movie calls it that right yep um like that like that's so strong but they're all strong I mean pulp fiction's so dark right but it's so good but it's so dark.

SPEAKER_03 32:56

But it rewires the way that you see fiction when you watch pulp fiction.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yeah yeah yeah maybe not anymore because he's had so many imitators but when I watched pulp fiction yeah it was like Watchman is one of those things that rewired my brain just a little bit yeah it's like he's finding story in really interesting places and doing really interesting things with it right yeah like like like like and that might be what I most love about him is he really knows how to play with story and he really knows how to play with tension.

SPEAKER_03 33:23

So are you a Chris Nolan lover or a Chris Nolan like he goes too far?

SPEAKER_00 33:28

No I mostly I mostly love Chris Nolan look tenant because I I'm a tenant apologist I love tenant I think tenant's one of its best here's the thing am I am I saying tenant's like the most fun movie ever no am I saying tenant is a beautiful really cool experiment that a filmmaker made that felt so imaginative and so complex and so brain tickling it was all those things you know any other dark horse picks for uh for films or reaching around in the in the movie world yeah I don't know man like I like a lot of old stuff like I I like and like like uh yeah like I mean for a for a comedy some like it hot go back in time like that's one of the great comedies of all time um see that's where one of the holes in my understanding uh like my like when I talk to real film buffs they all know all the movies from you know the 40s 50s and 60s yeah and I don't right and I'm not that guy yeah I I've seen I've seen enough that like I try to see some of the best of that stuff because I'm assuming it must have been good and usually I'm really pleased. You know what I mean? Usually oh yeah that was that was famous for a reason that was cool for a reason. But like and you don't even have to go back that far like like the movies of my childhood right like I I love movies like The Natural. I thought that was such a fun movie. I like Goonies a lot I I I like you know almost anything almost any of the Spielberg stuff is so fun like where it gets really imaginative you know I I I love I've always loved a good adventure so if you give me a movie that gives me a good adventure whether that's Indiana Jones or whether that's a war movie or whatever like like I'll I'll sign up for all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Yeah we're around the same age and so um we're of that era where the films that we watched growing up were that era of filmmaker who was taking the pulp stories and giving them gravitas right uh the Scorsese Lucas uh Spielberg uh sort of era where they're like we loved these things that were made really cheap as B movies can we take a really cheap B movie and put a real budget behind it and make it amazing. Yeah. And that's our era.

SPEAKER_00 35:31

And the world kind of voted yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:33

Yeah yeah you can do that. Yeah monster movies if they're in the hands of Steven Spielberg it turns out a monster movie can be really elevated and and have a lot of that like I say gravitas powerful filmmaking and whatnot.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

And so yeah so I assume we like a lot of the same stuff and really that's what Tarantino was doing too right I mean almost everything he did is a is a B movie premise but done with with A-list attention to detail and casting and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

He kind of took the grindhouse sort of aspect of it where the like Spielberg and Lucas had taken like the serial like the adventure series sci-fi yeah he took more like the quirky movie.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Yeah like he was he was a fan of the quirky he was a fan of the spaghetti westerns and stuff like that and said let's let's let's elevate that yeah you haven't played any video games lately do you do you do gaming I remember we talked about this last time yeah look like my my time is so compressed uh that that that my love of video games which has existed since I could think uh uh is is a little bit on hold right now like like like I I've played every Zelda okay because I can't stop myself so did you you played the um Tears of the Kingdom yeah yeah finally yeah because I started that and I really enjoyed it but then I uh I was getting a bit of the this I feel like I've played this game before vibe from it yeah there's a little bit of that yeah but I'm so hooked on that formula yeah that I I don't care they could make 12 of them and I would still be like okay it's different enough Donald can you grab me some more pages I forgot to bring Ollie today absolutely I was gonna roll and get them but it's not rolling well I'll just have you do it.

SPEAKER_03 37:09

Uh you're awesome thanks. Uh yeah um Hades did you ever play Hades? No is it awesome it's awesome I need to just get a list from you man it depends on Hades is depends on if you like uh the roguelite formula right like if you like doing a run and losing at the end of it and having to start all over but with new understanding and maybe a new power a few new power ups or things like that. Yeah that sounds fun yeah yeah yeah yeah I would like that you never have never played any of those none of them none of them Hades should should I write it down? Yeah uh Hades is is incredible it's the the best of the genre over Dead Cells you'd say yeah yeah I would agree I mean Dead Cells is is fantastic don't get me wrong but Hades Hades is on um a tier for itself um what's it on uh everything it's just on everything yeah uh I play I've played it on Steam Deck and Switch I have two copies it's a good handheld game yeah uh it plays a little so it has the you go in a room you fight everything then you get a power up and move to the next room like Zelda the original Zelda's right like old school Zelda the idea is that you are uh the son of Hades in Greek mythology yeah and you are a grouchy teenager okay and your dad is forbidden you to go to the surface and you're like I don't I'm mad at you dad I'm gonna escape from Hades and I'm gonna go up to the surface and I'm gonna see what's up there. That's a fun project and your dad is like a grouchy middle manager of the dead uh thing and you're his son Zagrius and so the Olympians all found out that you exist and like oh we have a nephew we didn't know about yeah so they send you blessings that give you power ups. Oh nice and so you go in a room you defeat all the the souls of the dead that are there to keep you from getting to the surface right and then you get a power up and then you pick a door to go through that has a one of the gods. It's like we know that Athena's uh power-ups all give you you know extra blocking power or you can go through Ares's door and Aries gives you you know this special thing that does extra damage in a certain way. Yeah god of war stuff stuff that fits the god kind of and you you say well I'll I'll pick Ares this time and I'll I'll put it that works really well in this weapon that I've chosen and you know you go you defeat those guys you get that you pick one of his three blessings and then go to the next door and eventually try to fight your way up and you will the first few times loose. Yeah um but you'll start to understand how the different power ups work together and you'll get a little bit of level up experience that you can go spend uh to make your characters a little bit stronger for the next run.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Yeah uh and then you'll try it again uh and get a little further uh learn a little bit more that feels like the old school video games yeah it it really is like the old school video games like so much now is like explore this cool world and I love that but but there is something fun about the old video games where it's like no dude you just got to learn how to figure out the hand eye coordination to beat this thing.

SPEAKER_03 40:01

It really feels like that but it's secretive in how the power slow powering up makes you augments how you're learning and that's the real secret of Hades uh because if you go you can do a run and take off all your power ups that you've uh spent and be like oh I'm really good at this now and you'll go back and be like oh I am much better than when I started but these are really handy to have I still needed some of this I still need some of this and uh anyway it's uh it's a really good game uh nice story um each time you die you you you're you know you're um a god so you die and then you just uh materialize out of the river sticks and then you go walk respawn yeah you walk up and your dad like laughs at you for having died because he's there like stamping papers of the new dead that have arrived yeah and then you get to go through the house and talk to all the people there uh and advance each of their conversations a little bit further uh and learn a little bit more about them new relationship beats um and and you know Achilles is there and you get a Achilles taught you how to fight and so you go chat with Achilles and that sounds well conceived I love it. It's just really good.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

I'll have to try it yeah and I'll rope my kids into it.

SPEAKER_03 41:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Is there other awesome games? Other awesome games?

SPEAKER_03 41:19

Yeah um one of your favorite I mean Elden Ring is uh is very high on my list. Yeah uh do you have any idea what Elden Ring is?

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Yeah through my kids I do yeah yeah yeah uh and that just seemed like I would just get lost in it till the end of time because it's super cool.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

Like the nice thing about Hades is it the scope is manageable for somebody who's doing a lot of other things.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

Yeah yeah you can go sit down do a run through Hades it'll take you 20 minutes you'll chat with everybody you'll feel like that was fun I'll go back and do my work now you could take incremental bites out of it is just dude even Minecraft yeah there's too much there I I just have too much fun with like exploring nooks and crannies and messing around. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 42:03

And so some things I just have to cut myself off from because you take my imagination which loves to imagine and loves to pretend adventures and you put it inside a world that lets me do that and I just want to live there you know have you done Bilattro no that's a phone game yes uh Bellatro that's a phone game yeah yeah Bilattro is great um so Bilattro is probably the best game built for like best game you can buy on your phone right now would you say that? Uh currently absolutely Minecraft is on phone Minecraft's pretty good I mean I'm biased I'd say Final Fantasy one Final Fantasy so anyway top ten games you can get on your phone Bilatro is one of them all the other ones are big famous games you've heard of heard of but Bellatro is cool and I might and I haven't heard of it. And what it is is uh Bellatro is you get a hand it's a poker uh it's like Hades it's a roguelike but it's poker. So you get a hand of five cards and you like you you have a certain number of discards you can give and you try to build a flush or whatever and you score points equal to what it is. You're not playing against anyone else it's just you're trying to hit a certain uh point threshold. And then you get little power-ups that'll say things like you can build a straight but you can skip a number or you get a power up that says every time you put a seven in you know it scores multiple times. So do you maybe want to try to get multiple sevens and then you start sculpting your deck where you're like well I don't want anything but sevens let's get rid of these ones and so you can pay to like make your deck no longer have ones in it and stuff like that. And you're trying to get to higher and higher scores.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

So it's like increasingly modified poker.

SPEAKER_03 43:42

Yeah and the idea is you just modify and modify and poker modified modified and you're trying to beat eight levels of of bosses but the bosses are just a circle with a number in it right yeah yeah it's not like yeah it's just it's like here's my mustachioed enemy or whatever. Yeah it's just can you get past each of these each of these number thresholds And some once in a while you'll hit a bot like every third one of these has some special rule you have to follow. Um, like um to to make it a little harder. But yeah, it's just like that. Can you get how how can you sculpt? How can you use these tools to make a poker deck that is that that breaks the rules?

SPEAKER_00 44:19

And that sounds like it would break your brain because I know that you love Magic the Gathering. Yeah. And so the idea of building an awesome deck is is happy territory for you.

SPEAKER_03 44:27

It's very happy territory. So I could see you loving it. Being a phone game, and it's again, it's a phone game you can just buy. There's no microtransactions. There's no just pay whatever it is. Once you buy it, you can now play it. You can play it, you have all of the game. There is no more game that you can pay to have. And I just love supporting developers who'll do that.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

I prefer that model so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's great.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

And they killed it too. Uh it's it's it's a game of the killed it in good. Yeah, a good way. Uh didn't Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

They've won prizes and everyone's loving it kind of thing. Yeah, that's that's fun to know. Yeah, you know, uh a great game is so fun. I get so lost in yeah, I mean, you know my situation. I've got a bunch of kids, right? I'm I'm a blended family, and so and so it's a bunch of kids, and that that is beautiful and hard and time consuming. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's all those things. And then and then, yeah, and then just trying to be writer guy, you know, you know, about wearing that hat too.

SPEAKER_02 45:25

Oh, I do.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

And trying to trying to be writer guy and trying to be dad guy. Like right now, if my wife hears you telling me about good games, she will be losing it. Like for sure. In the in the in the funniest way. You know what I mean? Yeah, in the funniest way.

SPEAKER_03 45:39

You gotta have relax, you gotta relax now and then. You for sure. I get it. Um so Donald, have you played Clover Pitt yet?

SPEAKER_02 45:47

Uh I was the one that recommended Clover Pit.

SPEAKER_03 45:50

It wasn't just you. Someone else told me about it, I thought.

SPEAKER_02 45:53

Oh, well, I remember you and I had a very I the second I bought it, I was like, Brandon's gonna do this. It must have been you. Is it then it was it ma magic?

SPEAKER_03 46:00

It was that magic. It's like Brandon, you gotta play this. Because there were multiple people involved in the conversations. But yeah. Uh so yeah, Clover Pitt. Uh I like Clover Pit. Um is that also a fun game or is that Yeah, it's also a phone game. But it's uh it's this same sort of thing, but with slot machines, um but also twisted and dark and messed up. Yeah, yeah, weird. Yeah, Bellatra is kind of happy and uh friendly fun game. Friend, friendly fun game. Uh, and this one is uh if you can't meet these thresholds on your slot machine, we're going to drop you in a pit and kill you. Um good luck. Also, and all the power-ups that we give you are also alive, and if you throw them away, they explode into bloody messes. Oh, that's crazy. Yeah, it's it's real weird.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

The wacky thing. Yeah. Uh Mole, what do you usually game on?

SPEAKER_00 46:47

Look, like like we're long time, we've had Nintendo's forever. Like, like I'm I'm like Nintendo's whipping boy. Like, like, like, I mean, that's that's from the first NES up through everything. Like, I think I've had every main console, and it's mostly because I just keep chasing my Zelda highs. You know what I mean? Not not Mario or are you fine with Mario? I love Mario. I mean, like, like, like I like Mario. Like, I respect I've played most of the main console Mario's and think it's fun. But yeah, like this, the special sauce has always been Zelda for me. It's just I'm so nerdy for it.

SPEAKER_03 47:19

I don't I um uh I wish we had another Zelda 2.

unknown 47:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:25

We've never gotten another one in the Zelda 2 style. Like we Yeah, the the the side view kind of thing, right? We've gotten another we've gotten like a whole bunch of them like Zelda 3, which was uh Link to the Past, the Super Nintendo one. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh lots of just styles of that, and even a few like uh OG Zelda on the Game Boy and things like that. We had things like that, but we we've never gotten another Zelda 2 style game.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

Yeah, yeah, that'd be fun. Drop down some chimneys. Yep, right? Remember that business? Yep, yep. Yeah, I like that stuff. That just makes me think. So I was in Connecticut when when that was coming out. I was in eighth grade, yeah, lived on Bucks Hill Road, and I just remember like talking with eight greighth grade boys about the secrets of the games, and somehow pre-internet, yeah, everyone still got all the codes. Yeah, it was to me, it was like the You had them from Nintendo Power.

SPEAKER_03 48:17

That's how you got codes.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There were but it felt like to me, it felt like, you know, in Lady in the Tramp, yeah, when the dogs just like call out the howls and like it just spreads through town. Yeah, it's like that was going on with like nerdy kids who like games. Like, like, like I would just hear about it from friends. I didn't even have to buy the magazine because everyone, yeah, someone knew, someone at school knew, and they would tell you the secret, tell you how to get to the minus world on Mario or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_03 48:41

Uh, people are gonna tell me, I guarantee you like Zelda 2, play Shovel Knight. I did play Shovel Knight. It's very good. It is a mashup between Zelda 2 and uh a Metroidvania. So uh there is there is Shovel Knight, but cool. As an asterisk that yeah, yes, I have to let people know I have played Shovel Knight. And you know, Hollow Knight, but you know, Hollow Knight is not based on Zelda 2 as much. Shovel Knight has that. So one of the big things, did you ever play Zelda 2? Me, Donald? Yes. Yeah, you did? Okay. So for those who's not like Zelda 2 has like jump up and land on someone with your sword pointed down is like a major move that you do a lot. And I just like a pogo stick, yeah. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

So yeah, yeah, that's kind of fun just bouncing on dudes' heads. That that that gave Zelda a little bit of a Mario vibe. You like bounce on that guy's head and poke him with your sword. The uh Yeah, what is I am?

SPEAKER_02 49:40

My brain just fizzed. My brain just fizzed. That happens sometimes. It does happen. Uh Mole, how do you feel about Metroid if you're a Nintendo fan?

SPEAKER_00 49:47

Yeah, I like Metroid. Yeah, yeah. Metroid's solid. And I liked Metroid Prime. You know, like like when they when they took it 3D and stuff. Like, like that was all fun. Oh, that was I was gonna say I also did I also had a PlayStation. Oh, so so I played a bunch of the PlayStation games around the PS3 time. Three time, okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 50:04

Uh, what was uh what was Bloodborne on? Was that PS3? That was three, yeah. Yeah, did you play Bloodborne?

SPEAKER_00 50:10

I didn't play Bloodborne. I played the Uncharted stuff, like that stuff, and I played like um Little Big Planet, which I thought was so fun. I like that you could build your levels, like the level building on that, I still haven't found its sequel. Like I built such cool little vehicles and stuff using the physics of that simple like like kind of simple, but like there was a lot you could do with it. That was another one I had to cut myself off on because I would have just like been like an unpaid level designer in Little Big Planet, you know?

SPEAKER_03 50:36

Oh, here's a mark of I don't know, not shame, but a mark of of deep dark secret from Brandon. Don't like Uncharted. What? I don't like Uncharted. Okay, well Don't like Uncharted? Yeah. What have you played? Uh I don't know. I can't remember. I I tried one of them. I don't like I don't like quick time events. Okay. I don't like cover-based shooting. Okay. I don't like sneaking.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

That okay. All right, that's fair.

SPEAKER_03 51:00

That makes sense for you. I don't like set pieces that are super scripted that all I do is I hit the right button at the right moment and it advances the set piece. Um, I had even a problem with that in the Insomniac Spider-Man games, which are really good. Um, but this when the set pieces happen, I'm like, come on. I'm not playing this game anymore. It's not my skill. I'm just pushing a button so that you so for your cut screen to advance uh from this thing.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

You were seeing through that too much. Yeah. Like, look, the the the weakness of Uncharted is for sure the mechanics.

SPEAKER_03 51:34

Yeah, I started by climbing up a train that was hanging off a cliff, whatever that one was.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Yeah, yeah, I did that one. And what was cool was that you were climbing up a train that was hanging off a cliff. Like that part was cool because I hadn't seen that part of the thing.

SPEAKER_03 51:46

That was so boring. I'm like, oh but but the mechanics weren't good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So boring. And then it was like, sneak into this thing and hide from these dudes. I'm like, I don't want to sneak in and hide from the things. Yeah. Uh like I want to give me a gun. I grew up on Doom, Doom. Yes, I give me a gun and point me at the demons. Yeah, yeah. I want to test my skill, not my ability to wait, because that's the thing that bothers me the self. It's not your skill. It's how patient are you to just sit there and wait while the people walk past so that you move at the right moment. I don't want to play a game that waiting is my main mechanic.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

I I hear you. You're you're making a good case. And also, like Uncharted wasn't my favorite game, and it wasn't, it wasn't what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03 52:28

I know a lot of people love them because of the writing. And the writing that I saw was really good. Uh the characterization was good, the writing was good, and things like that. And that's why people like Uncharted.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

For a video game, it was really good. Like the cutscenes and stuff like that. It felt like, oh yeah, this is almost like a little movie kind of.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

And you needed Uncharted for Naughty Dog to run with The Last of Us. Right.

SPEAKER_03 52:49

Right. And Last of Us is amazing, but I still don't love the gameplay.

SPEAKER_01 52:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:55

You gotta sit and hide under a I'm hiding under a car. I gotta hide under this car until these people walk fast so I can shoot them with my bow when they're pointed the other way. Like, come on, I was the Doom Slayer last week. Uh yeah. What about like Arkham Asylum? Did you like that? I uh I liked Arkham Asylum. I they did let me swing in to beat some guys up now and then. Right. Because I I I was asking that because it has some of the similar aspects, right?

SPEAKER_00 53:24

And I but it also had some really cool moments.

SPEAKER_03 53:27

That I I didn't like I played Asylum and I played City. And by the end of that, I'm just like, I am spending too much time hiding. I'm spending too much time like uh the best games in the genre I can only tolerate. Yeah. Uh and admit how fantastic they are.

SPEAKER_02 53:44

I'm gonna play Darkimus Sound.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

I just played that one.

SPEAKER_02 53:46

You should play City and Night. They really, really expand on some of the very night after city.

SPEAKER_03 53:52

I'm just like, I'm so tired of hiding in the eaves and waiting for the right moment. Which is fair. And and then they didn't the Insomniac kind of took this and did the Mary Jane ver uh things from Spider-Man, where you play as Mary Jane as MJ. Oh, really? And you spend the whole time hiding. Yeah. I'm like, ah, yeah, that's rough.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

You're like suffering. I can picture you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:14

I don't mind a game being hard. Like Elden Ring is one of my favorite games ever. Uh I don't mind, you know, getting getting flattened now and then. And but I want to go and fight that boss. I don't want to wait. Yeah. Yeah. Wait. I'm curious. All right, shoot him once. All right, wait. Wait, wait, wait. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

As your life ticks by. Exactly. I hear what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 54:37

Have either of you played Shadow of the Colossus then with PlayStation? Okay. I love Shadow of the Colossus. Love that game. Mole, have you played Shadow of the Colossus? Is that was that three? That's three. I think it's on a couple of them. That's an all-time great game.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

You know what? I think I I swear I think I played it at a friend's house. So like so like I never owned the game. Yeah. But like I but you weren't you like climbing these big things to fight them, right?

SPEAKER_02 54:59

Yeah, it's a puzzle monster fighter, basically. Can you beat the boss fight? Puzzle boss fight game. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 55:04

Yeah, that's that would be fun. My little sample of it was fun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:09

Nobody's made another game like that, really. No. Um, which is which is odd because it is so revolutionary.

SPEAKER_00 55:16

Um, but oh, speaking of games, you know one one that I thought was kind of fun. Yeah that was a do you ever play the room? Ah, yes. Those games? The room.

SPEAKER_03 55:25

It's like it almost feels like adventure games.

SPEAKER_00 55:27

It almost feels like it's a little escape room on your iPad or on your phone.

SPEAKER_03 55:31

Yeah, I've seen them. I haven't tried them.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

And they did like a they did a VR one that you can do with Oculus or whatever. And that one to me was really fun. It was like it was like what I would want an escape room to be. Because you could do things like shrink down or do things that like you can only do inside a video game. They made good use of of what you could do. And so, like, you got the Oculus on, you're kind of in the room, you're manipulating things that look Egyptian. I'll try. That was kind of neat. Because that sounds like like mist and ribbon and things like that.

SPEAKER_03 55:59

Yeah, totally that vibe. Totally that. Like if you like mist, it was like that. Yeah. So if you like adventure games like that, I'll give you one last recommendation that you can play with your kids. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:09

As we just sit here and nerd out, right? Right.

SPEAKER_03 56:11

This is one that you can be like, hey kids, they may have already heard of it, but if they haven't, you'll have a blast for a while. It's called There Is No Game.

SPEAKER_02 56:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

Oh, okay. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 56:20

Um kind of meta. You have to play it with a sound on. Yeah. Um, because uh the game will insist that it's not a game with a fun voy voice, and then you have to solve the puzzle. My son did show me this. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 56:36

Yeah, he did show me this. It was awesome. Yep. Okay. It wasn't super long, right? No, it's not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a but it was so creative. So um I think yes, you're right. Like that that kind of thing, I would do that every anytime. Like something that's like the room or something like that. I I wouldn't be able to help myself.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

All right. Well, Mole, do you have a favorite video game? We gotta ask. Yeah. Before we go, favorite of all the stuff?

SPEAKER_00 56:58

Yeah. Yeah, probably uh it's gotta be uh Breath of the Wild. Breath of the Wild. You gotta build stuff in Tears of the Kingdom. Yeah, yeah, like look the Breath of the Wild was was like the new one. Like when it hit, it felt like so. I like I love building stuff in Tears of the Kingdom. That was an awesome thing. If they hadn't added that, it wouldn't be as good a game. But like But when Breath of the Wild first hit, I just couldn't believe it. And here's the thing about Breath of the Wild. I was going through my divorce at the time. And so I was so hurting, and it was like it felt like a gift from heaven that there was a thing I could go escape into that like reminded me of my childhood, and except it had upgraded everything. And it was like and suddenly there was like I was I was alone in my house, and I felt like a ghost haunting my house, and I had like someplace fun to go. You know what I mean? Like it it did, it did a beautiful thing for me. Like it was so like like like partly even just the timing, I'm sure that might always be my favorite game. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's awesome. It hit at the right time. Thanks for coming by, Mole. Yeah, yeah, thanks. Yeah, yeah. It's it's it's good to see it, it's good to talk to you.

SPEAKER_03 58:04

Yeah, this timed really well because Dan was sick and you had some cool things coming up, and we're like, let's let's chat with Mole.

SPEAKER_00 58:11

Yeah, people if people like Fablehaven, they should check out that backer kit stuff because there's all sorts of cool little merch and there's cool little things, like it's it's worth looking into. They and then they'll keep adding stuff to it, I'm sure, you know.

SPEAKER_02 58:22

Yep. And link will be in the description for all those who are interested. All right. How's that, Ben?