The Champion of Trilogies — Intentionally Blank Ep. 253

Brandon Sanderson and Dan Wells dive back into the Hollywood Thunderdome to declare the greatest movie trilogy of all time! Star Wars, Iron Man, Back to the Future, and more . . . but who will make it to the top? Find out on this episode of Intentionally Blank!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

All right. Dan. Hey, so I you recorded without me last week, right?

SPEAKER_00 0:08

I did. But uh I don't know when that one's gonna go live because uh it's uh it's with the other Brandon. Yes. And the other Brandon, like he has a crowd fun coming up, so he might want that to go live with his Crown Sun or something like that. So this might happen before that one. Ooh. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Time travel. Uh-huh. Um, so yeah, I was out last week because I had RSV. Oh. There's a nasty strain of RSV kind of chewing its way through Utah and Idaho. And yeah, I was sick for a good two weeks.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

So you didn't didn't mean RSV, not RSVP. You didn't get to go to some nice thing.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

I didn't get a go to a cool thing. That would have been great, though.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

RSV, virus? Yeah. Yeah. Respiratory something virus. Is there a I don't know what the S. Is there a vaccine? Can I go get it so that I I don't know. If it's going around. Yeah. I haven't been sick in a little while, so it'd be nice to not.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

I haven't really talked to anyone here in Utah Valley that's hadn't. Okay, so that means it might be. Salt Lake and North Salt Lake. Okay. Everyone was sick.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Okay. Well, that's uh this good forewarning heralded from the from the future, the the far-off future of Salt Lake.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

It might be coming south. Uh but I say that to preface. Uh-huh. We're gonna record three episodes today. Yes. My voice will get raspier and raspier over time. Ooh, more and more blues singery as the time progresses. Yes. Uh but before, uh-huh, while I still have a voice, we need to cover the most important thing we can cover. Is this a food heist? It is a food heist. Okay. And it's only it is a heist that involves food.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

But food is not the thing they were stealing.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

It's a food adjacent food heist then. Yes. And our categorizations. It's uh it's a level two rather than a level one. Yeah. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Uh, but it's delightful in many ways. Uh there was a guy who was caught uh using taco seasoning packets to steal Pokemon cards from Target. What? All right. And you might think that he was like hiding cards in the taco seasoning packets when he checked out. Yeah. No. Okay. Um, according to the news, he was just grabbing large boxes of trading cards. So it may have been other kinds of cards as well. And an equal number of 99 cent taco seasoning packets. Okay. And then he would go through self-checkout and only pay for the taco seasoning. Uh-huh. And then walk out. So I I feel like there has to be more to this. Okay. Because that doesn't sound like using taco seasoning to steal cards. It sounds like just stealing stuff and buying a bunch of taco seasoning on your way out.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Yeah. But what is he going to do with that seasoning and those cards? Yeah. Right. Um, he's he he is a monster for stealing Pokemon cards from those kids.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Right? Yes. Uh so the Taco Mon. But what is the Taco Mon gonna do? Is this like a Mr. Freeze situation? He needs taco seasoning?

SPEAKER_01 3:30

I wonder if he loves eating tacos, uh-huh, but he's not allowed to have them at the table when they're playing Pokemon because they're too messy. So he's like, fine, I'm gonna bring all my own cards, and these are taco-approved cards. So they can get the seasoning on them. You can get these as messy as you want.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

And then, I mean, gotta be pretty tempting to eat those cards once they've got all the taco seasoning on them. You know.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Delicious.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

We lost a bet. Here's what it is. He lost a bet that uh if he if he lost the game of Pokemon, he has to eat the cards.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Like an old-style anti-system.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Yeah, exactly. So he's buying some taco seasoning in anticipation of if I lose this, if I lose, I'm gonna have to. At least it's gonna be delicious.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

You want to know what's insane? Uh he was uh Target estimates he stole ten thousand dollars worth of cards from them. Yes. Wow. Um I think he may also have been targeting other stores like publics and stuff. Um but then they say he faces up to ninety years in jail.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

It's a lot of money, which is a lot of time for$10,000 white collar sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

$10,000 worth of trading cards should not get you 90 years in jail. No, something's up there.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Uh, what about uh what about Pico Mon Picante Mon? Picante Mon, there you go. Yeah, Picante Mon, that's what I was looking for. Pico is just small, right? Or no? Pico is actually a sting. What's Pico de Gallo?

SPEAKER_01 5:04

Uh beak of the of the rooster.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Okay. So Pico, yeah, is like a beak or a stinger or something like that. Okay. So that okay, so Picantemon.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

Picante Mon. That actually kind of fits Pokemon.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

I could go for a couple of Carneas Sodomons right now. Love it. Uh I'm assuming neither of you have played Pokemon. Uh, the card Pokemon, I have a lot of children.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

I have played one of the Pokemon games. The card game, I looked at the rules and said, this does not make a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Which is fair. Well, you see, I've only played the card game. Okay. I haven't played the like RPGs and stuff. Gotcha. Because they're Nintendo only. They are Nintendo only. Then, Dan, you know that he just wants you to eat the prize cards. Every time you get a prize card, he just wants you to eat it. He just wants you to eat it. Yep. You invented the new Pokemon style. I hope to see it in the tournament. There we go. Yep. Oh, the prize card. I have no idea what you're talking about. He has been charged with counts of felony, organized retail theft. Uh-huh. Three counts of felony dealing in stolen property. Because apparently he was selling them on eBay. Oh. One count of felony money laundering.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

That ruins a lot of our theories. If he's selling them. I wonder if they were. But maybe he was selling them as spicy, seasoned Pokemon cards. Maybe? Yeah. I don't know. Honestly, I don't think this guy belongs to be uh talked about in such cool terms. This was just this wasn't really a heist. This was just This was just shoplifting. We're we're we're aggrandizing this person. He doesn't belong from stealing from those kids to be in the same echelons as our normal discussions. So Yeah. Okay. No, no food heist personality. No more uh no more attention paid to you. So Donald came up with an idea that is surely not going to make the internet mad as we discuss this week. While I sign copies of Skyward.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

What we're gonna talk about today, uh Donald has very kindly and lovingly assembled a list of movie trilogies. Yes, and we are going to rank them.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

We are going to rank them. Now, let me ask you this: is this a ranking based like solely on quality or on how well they fit as a trilogy? That's what I was going to ask.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

How good are they as a trilogy? Yeah, versus an average between the other. How much do we love them versus how important are they cinematically?

SPEAKER_00 7:34

That's true. That's that's another category. How important are they cinematically? Yep. Um the and I feel like one other thing that's gonna give uh great amounts of points to me is if we can find a single one where the third entry is the strongest. Ooh. I don't know if there's a single one that we'll be able to find where the third entry is the strongest of the trilogy. That okay, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Maybe yeah, oh boy. No, I off the top of my head I can't think of any. So we'll see.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

We'll uh we'll add that those marks. If your third entry is the strongest, you get an automatic upgrade a point uh a point. Up a level. Up a level. Okay. Uh how about we do that? And if we deem you to be cinematically important to the landscape of film, we'll give you another level. So we'll give you another. And then we'll give you one level based on if you hog together cohesively as a trilogy. So I'm gonna give a rank, and it can be bumped up up to three points higher for me. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

So I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

We may need A's and uh minuses and pluses, but we'll see. We'll see.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

All right. Well, let's uh let's do it to it. What's our what's our first one? First one.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

Uh this is gonna be the Aliens trilogy.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Aliens trilogy. The xenomorphs. Uh yeah, this one. All right. First one is excellent. First one is excellent. Second one is above excellent.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Okay. I I I like where you're going for that. Third one is not as bad as people say, but not so you're so you're you would be like 10 out of 10, 11 out of 10, if that's even possible, followed by seven. It's not six terraces. So it depends on how much you pay attention to the Newt principle that I've talked about on this. That my trope that I named is named after Aliens 3. Uh, if you're not familiar with the Newt principle, it is uh in making a sequel, be very, very careful in order to not undermine the audience's emotional investment in a better film. Yes. Right? Uh, and this is because Alien 3 starts off with the death of several characters off-screen that we loved from Alien 2 in order to reset so the character can have a new adventure. When you do this, like uh when I first watched Alien 3, it got like a two from me because of the Newt principle. I started off against the film. Um watching it as an isolated film in retrospect, it's it's actually a good film. It's better than average.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:05

But the Newt principle, I'll go with a six. I'll go with a six, like you. Yeah, I think six is a fair place for it. The newt principle should knock it down a little bit, even if it's not making it a two. Uh so um, I so in terms of like what tier Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

That third one falls it down. Yeah, I I can't put it into S tier, but I can't, in good conscience, put it anywhere lower than A. Um, okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

So let's go through my three categories that I've said. Is the Aliens trilogy really important cinematically? I would say I think so. Yeah. Definitely. Um there's a couple things the Aliens trilogy is doing that's really interesting. The first is uh what became a bit of a pattern later on is the the first one being a small scale uh sort of story, all not indie, but almost, expanded into an action film after. Yeah, right? The horror film becomes action film. We see this in um Evil Dead, uh, with Evil Dead 3 becoming the action movie. Evil Dead's a weird trilogy. That one should be on there, maybe. Okay. Um, because the Evil Dead trilogy is horror film, comedy film, action film. Yeah. Um, we see this with Terminator, um, and it's just kind of this idea of aliens is the the Ur example of it. So I would say it's important.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Um Well, and it spawned such a huge raft of copycats.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

It did. Yep. Um, I mean, in Space, no one can hear your scream is like one of the best taglines of all time, also. Yeah. Uh the third one is not the strongest. It does not get a point for that. What was the third thing I said you get a point for? Uh you've already done cinematic history, you've already done uh I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

It was uh how well does it hold together as a trilogy? Poorly, I think. I would agree. I think the first two fit together well, and then the new principle, they tried it. Trying to shoehorn the story into and it didn't fit.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

And even not with um the genre swap. Going from, hey, there was this weird thing to hey, the the company wants it in movie two is a nice escalation. So I'm gonna say that it only gets one bonus point for me. I would have put it in B because uh three uh was pulling it down, but I will put it to A. You'll put it up to A. I'll give it an A for its cultural significance. There we go. Okay. All right. Okay. Oh, wait. Oh, Back to the Future trilogy. Back to the Future. Oh, that's our next trend.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

I don't know if there is any trilogy on this list that holds together better as a cohesive story than Back to the Future. Agreed.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Point for that.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Uh, what about our cinematic uh sort of thing? Well, I mean, Back to the Future, the first one, one of the greatest scripts ever written. Yes. Um, and I have heard countless writers, comedy writers in particular, yes, who say that reading that script is what taught them how to write. Uh, even Tina Faye has, you know, come out in this is a foundational script for for modern writers. Okay. So I think that it's got the the cachet as well.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

I would agree with you. Just the fact that a later Avengers film references it as, you know, like the the fact that, yeah, it is the time travel trilogy. Um is the third one the strongest?

SPEAKER_01 13:29

I love the third one so much. But I don't know if I can say it's the strongest. I think the first one then the third. Number two is not as bad as you probably remember it. But everyone remembers it being bad. Well, everyone remembers the bad parts of it.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Yeah. The good parts of it are really good. But the bad parts of it are really like why are we saying his mom be hot and what's going on? And it just it just feels weird and icky when it's bad. Yeah. Um, and so um Back to the Future Trilogy, I'll agree with you on those two things, but I or uh the cinematic import and it holding together. I will also agree the third one is not the strongest. It is my favorite.

unknown 14:18

Really?

SPEAKER_00 14:19

If I'm gonna down and watch one, I'll watch three, but one structure is stronger. Um three has the little problem that they um they ran into when they decided to make two more, which is that they had to invent a character arc for Marty. Yeah, and so they had to out of nowhere invent he doesn't like being called chicken, which is like one of the I'm glad they did it. He needed a character arc, but it's one of those things, and man, if you could have made one change to a perfect film in the first one, making him ski have that so that it didn't have to get invented in movie two would have been great. Um I'm gonna I'm gonna go S tier. S tier. S tier. What are you gonna go with?

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Oh man. Um again, I really don't love the second one. That's true. Does that knock it down to B?

SPEAKER_00 15:08

I'm gonna put it into A tier. Okay. Um there gonna be any bad trilogies on this? Did you pick any bad trilogies? Are we just gonna put everything in A? I mean, there's a couple in here I wouldn't put in A or S.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Okay. Yeah. All right. Um the the nice thing about three, Back to the Future three, the big train sequence at the end is spectacular. Yeah. And I it gets so many extra points for just that sequence of.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

I'm gonna go S. I'm I'm I'm holding my ground because of how well it it hooks together as an idea. Um that is fair. Is giving it the boost.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

So, Dan, this is where you have to make a choice. Is it better than aliens? Which trilogy in your A tier is the bias?

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Yeah, that's true. You can move it to the front. That's maybe how we'll bump things around.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Oh, okay. So I have to rank them within category. Yeah. I'm gonna keep Aliens in front. Back to the future. I would watch Aliens before I'd watch any of the Back to the Futures. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

I don't think that I would just because they're miserable.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

They're good, but miserable. Aliens is one of my all-time favorite movies.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

I mean, it's an amazing movie, but it's miserable. It is miserable. It's absolutely miserable. But I love misery. Yes, you are, Dan. If I'm gonna sit down and be like, do I want to watch everyone get murdered and turned into xenomorphs? Or do I want to watch um Doc Brown um make a steam-powered uh locomotive go 88 miles an hour? I'm gonna I'm gonna watch that. Yeah. Talk about Jules Verne and you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Okay. So all right. The next one's not easy at all. Nolan Batman. Nolan Batman. Nolan Batman. Okay. So So definitely very significant.

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Yes. Um really gave the world permission, I think, to love superhero movies in a way. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Um so far that uh to the point that it ruined the subsequent Superman trilogy. Yes. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Um this is very um aliens for me. Yeah, cooking. Because the first one is excellent, the second one is better, and the third one I genuinely dislike.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Really? Yeah. I'm the only so I'm different than you slightly. I don't like the first one as much as everyone else does. Okay. Uh I think the idea of vaporizing water or whatever that idea is is just so dumb that it is painful. The but the arc of Batman, when I say I don't love it as much as everyone else, I give it like an eight. And I think in a lot of people's books it's a nine or a ten.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Right? Um uh Dark Knight is my 11, right? If there's if I'm gonna give one thing on this uh an 11, uh, the the second Nolan Batman film is incredible. Yeah. Right. Um the third one I don't dislike as much as you, but it's not great.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

No. Um I I genuinely think it's a bad movie. And I know that a lot of people like it more than that. Um I oh so where does it go? That's the problem.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

How do I It has one of the best films of all time?

SPEAKER_01 18:16

It is an S tier number two, and it is a D tier number two.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

I wouldn't give it a D. I'd give the Dark Knight Rises is Dark Knight's not a D. It's not below average. It's still Christopher Nolan. It's an above average film. It's at least a five or a six. No, it's not. Okay. Um A for me. I'm gonna put it in B. Okay. A for me. Um, A for me. I'm gonna put it above or below Aliens? I'm gonna put it right below Aliens. Okay. Um, I think the third Aliens film, despite not being great, is maybe slightly better. Uh and Alien, maybe I mean, I though I'm not I'm the one that doesn't love the first one. I would watch uh Dark Knight over Aliens.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

I would uh So do you want to put uh Nolan Batman in front of Aliens then?

SPEAKER_00 19:08

No, only because two of them I'd watch Alien instead of.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Does that make sense? Sounds good to me. Alright, so what do we have next? OG Born Films, the three that came in. Oh man, not in the sequels. Um I want to throw these directly into S.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Oh, really? For me. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Uh I love these movies so much.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

I think they're good. Uh, but I can't feel can't say that I feel that they um are cohesively a trilogy on the same way as some of the others. It's just there could have been a fourth one, really. Is it there? Uh it's just a new adventure for Jason Bourne. They do expand, they do escalate.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Two and three are somewhat connected because they do some time shenanigans with them. Um I think all three of them hold up incredibly well. They each have a very different style to them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Um isn't the third one where they they fridge uh what's her name, though? That's uh two. That's two? Well, they fridged the wife in two or the the love interest. But I'm talking about the what's Oh, Julia Stiles?

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Yeah, Julia Styles in three is just No, she's still around, even in the the recent one that's No, they killed her in like four. They killed her in five, which is the fourth Matt Damon one. Fourth Matt Damon one, okay. And in the middle there wasn't like as much. There was a non-reparate.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Okay. Yeah. So all right. Uh I just don't feel like this is a trilogy in the same way, and I think that's gonna cost it to me. If we're talking about great trilogies, okay. I just uh you know.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

On the other hand, yeah, in terms of cinematic importance, every action movie has gone shaky cam. Yes, and that's awful. Post this. I'm gonna give that minus to this.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

Because the shaky cam is live like I hate the shaky cam in these movies. Yeah. And I hate that other one. So I'm gonna give it a B. A B? Yeah. I'm gonna give it a B. Uh the first one, excellent. Yeah. But all of them good, but I am the cinematic legacy of it nauseates me.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

This is one where I, upon reflection, am gonna say the third one is the best one. Do you think? Born Ultimatum again. Is my favorite. Okay. Uh, and that might be almost fully based on the scene in the London mall where he is trying to talk the guy out of the side of the cameras and things like that. It's just they are such smart action movies.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

I love them. I'm a twist person, so I would like the first one the best. Like the whole concept of who am I, and then I find out and I don't like that person I used to be, is a really good character. Isn't that twist number two? No, because at the end of the first ones where he finds out he wouldn't kill the guy. Right. He was sent. Right? That's the first one.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

No, that's the second one. I thought that was the first one.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

No, that's the first one. The first one is the one where he gets to the end, he realizes that he was an assassin sent to kill. Like, that's the whole mystery. Who is the born identity? I thought that was the second one, but okay. So, all right. Um that's where I might get some some hate, uh, the B on that one. All right. Uh Guardians of the Galaxy trilogy. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Oh trilogy. Um a very good first, a slightly less good second, and a slightly less good third.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Huh. I don't know if I 100% agree with that. Um, I think that I would say excellent first. Um the second one is uh is is tough for me because I feel like the character arcs are stronger in the second film. And I feel like they do James Gunn does more with the time in the second one. But because it's not fresh and new, you don't have the team getting together, you you lose that aspect, which is so fun. But I think I would rank one and two equal. Equal. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

That is interesting.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

I would put three slightly below. And the main reason, spoilers for this, the main reason is I think that three's message doesn't land. Uh quick spoilers, you can skip forward a minute or two if you don't want to get spoiled for Guardians Three. Guardians three is about saving, you know, like the the whole idea of these poor little creatures who've been uh treated awful and uh Rocket couldn't save them, now he's going to. Yeah. They ignore an entire planet full of people that blows up. Who are those experiments? They save a hundred uh little raccoons, and they let uh nine billion uh raccoon people get blown up and don't even try.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

I don't even remember that part of the movie. I was mostly unimpressed with three. I think three has the weakest villain. Um three is where James Gunn lets himself uh get too indulgent with his fascination with medical horror. That is a recurring theme in lots and lots of James Gunn stuff. Uh-huh. And three is where he's like, yeah, let's do it. I think it's appropriate to the film. It is appropriate to the film. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

It's just gross. I think, well, from you? Wow. Um, so I think I like all of these movies better than you do. Um, I think that I love the first one. They're pretty significant in that again, imitator after imitator of the quirky team that gets together, no one else has been able to do. We had an entire episode. We're like, why can't anyone else do this? Yeah. Uh cohesively, I don't know that they are terribly cohesive as a trilogy. Um, and this partially is because uh the MCU fiddling with character arcs and relationships by killing Gamora in the middle. Um it just it means that the third movie feels tacked on again in these trilogies. So um I'm going to A it. A where an A. Uh last in A. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

I'm gonna put it in B after the Nolan Batmans. After you what you would watch Guardians over Nolan Batman?

SPEAKER_00 25:15

No, he says after.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

After. What do you After? Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we're on the same page. Never mind, sorry. Uh-huh. Cool.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

All right. Uh next one. Three flavors Cornetto trilogy. For those who don't know what this is, this is Sean of the Dead.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

This is Hot Fuzz and uh World's End. I think is what the thought is. I have seen only Sean of the Dead, which was excellent. Sean of the Dead is the best of the three.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Uh-huh. That's gonna get people mad at me because most people prefer hot fuzz.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Um I really do need to watch the others. Hot fuzz is very good. Uh World's End, I think falters. Okay. Uh I didn't think World's End was super great. We're gonna have to make this probably a two-parter. Probably. Yes. I'm saying we got two parts on this.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

I mean, we got two parts on this. We're we're having a lot of fun chatting about these. I'm gonna have to let you place this, and I'm gonna have to abstain. Not having seen all three films. I don't think I can when we talked about this ahead of time. This is the only one I hadn't seen. Put it there. Um, no, no. It's not D, it's not D, it's just hiding there for the moment. All right, you'll have to make a different category. Yes. In posts, we will fix it.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Um I'm gonna put three flavors in A. Okay. Because Sean of the Dead and Hot Fuzz are strong enough uh to make up for three not working.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Now we get our most obvious S plus of all time.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Which one? Are you looking at this one?

SPEAKER_00 26:35

Uh no. I'm looking at the next one. Okay, we have them in different orders on the different things. Yeah, they messed up on this. But let's do this one. All right. Most easiest S plus of all time for me. Indiana Jones. Indiana Jones, straightened S.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Absolutely yes. Um even number two, which is uh I think everybody's least favorite, is still awesome.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

It's still better than any to me born film. Though I like the Born films. Yeah. Right. Um like uh I would watch um Indiana Jones 2 happily before most other films. The third one is not the best. See, I love the third one. Yes, but the first one's structure is so good. The third one is my favorite. If I'm gonna be like, let's watch an Indiana Jones film, you're gonna pick three. I'm gonna pick three, but uh again, the cinematography, the placing, the plotting, the building of it, uh one is uh like unimpeachable. One is for me the single greatest action film of all time. Yeah. I I would be hard pressed to disagree with you. I would have to sit and think about it, but I mean, I don't know that on this whole thing there is a better film than Indiana Jones. I think you're probably right. Right? Oh, okay. Interesting. It's possible. We'll see. We'll see if there's anything they can rival it. Dark Knight rises is the or Dark Knight, not rises, Dark Knight. Uh I keep wanting to call it Dark Knight Returns because of the comic. The Dark Knight is the closest thing on here, I think, to it. To to beating to beating Indiana Jones one. Um Aliens is pretty close. I'm pretty put aliens up too. Aliens is pretty close.

SPEAKER_01 28:14

Those are the top three on this list for me so far. Okay. So cool. Yeah. All right. Easy S tier. What's next? How to Train Your Dragon trilogy. Okay. I here's the here's the problem. Uh-huh. And Erin's gonna start yelling at me because I don't love the same thing they love. These are good movies that I enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

I can't remember the plot to either of two or three. Yeah. Um, I know they introduce new characters and I can't remember them. The first one is really good. The first one does uh Hero's Journey better than almost anything I've ever seen.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Yeah, it has only one flaw.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Yeah. Uh what do you consider its one flaw?

SPEAKER_00 28:56

Yeah, it's one flaw is that um after all the work he takes to learn how to fly dragons and do all this, they have to cheat and let all of his friends learn all of that in five minutes so you can have your climax at the end. Uh undercutting all the work that he did. Um I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

I to me it doesn't undercut it. Yeah. It's there's a huge time montage where he is using his ex hard-earned expertise to help them.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Yeah, they just but they don't have time for that because the end like his father is being killed while he's saying. Okay, well then never mind. If he had like, all right, let's we got eight hours, I can use all my expertise and train you, but they can't because they cut to his father's ships being sunk by the big dangerous monster dragon. And he's like, Everybody get on your dragons and let's go. Uh and it just you have to accept that. I don't know that they could have fixed it. Yeah. Uh actually they could have. The way that they fix it is they have him start training them earlier. Like, um uh um what's her name? Figures out what he's doing, and he starts training her. And then maybe the you know the twins. And so yeah, in secret, he begins training them before the crisis happens. Um but and then you have like the one dumb guy that know that is the bully guy who it just has to be on his dragon and not know what he's doing in the end uh for comic relief while the other are actually uh capable. You could do that, but it's hard in an animated film where you only have like 90-something minutes. Yeah. Um, and so I I don't hold it against the film, but it is the one flaw of the film. Uh two and three are totally acceptable movies. They are really solid seven out of tens. Put them on, watch them, enjoy them, but they don't belong in the echelons of the rest of any of the rest of this.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

Um, so yeah. So what that means we have to put it in C. I feel like I'm gonna be able to do it. So we have to put how to train your no, I'm gonna put it in B, just the lowest of the B's. I put mine into C. I can't in good conscience put how to train your dragon as a C. See, the first how to train your dragon is an easy S. The others are not. Here's the thing. It's but they're not C's. I think they are. You think they're five out of tens?

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Uh yeah. Two and three? Really? Yeah, because You think they're below average. I don't remember. They're plus anything.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

I think that's like the definition of like a six or a seven. Like if five is, I want to turn it off. It's I don't have time for average.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Well, if C is average, yes, I've watched several average movies to completion and been happy about it.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

And I have, but I don't, I'm not happy about it. Like um, like I don't have time for average. I really don't. And so for me, the something has to be above average for me, and I have fond memories of it, so that's why I can't put it in C. But it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

You I'm gonna put them in C because I genuinely wouldn't watch two and three again.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

You wouldn't?

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Uh I think you'd be watching them again and be like, oh yeah, I was just like, I'm sure if I were forced into it, like it was the only good thing on an airplane, I would probably enjoy them. But I would never choose to watch them. Yeah. Uh-huh. Sad so two is fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

All right. Yeah, two is good. I really like two. Two is but three ruins some things about the whole thing. Yes, it does. It pulls the toy story uh four. So there is that. Yeah. Um we'll get there. All right. Iron Man trilogy. Iron Man trilogy.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

Iron Man Trilogy. Um love one. I love three. And two is okay. Two is okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

Oh. Um. Tough. See, this is the problem. They're all gonna be they're all gonna be B's and above. Like, we didn't put any you're gonna have to find some bad ones to put on here for the biggest. I think there's some bad ones on here. I'm curious to see what you guys think. So Iron Man um is gonna be another B for me. Okay. Uh, it's gonna go above how how to train your dragon. Uh it's not gonna go above the Bourne films. Okay. Is it? Yeah, I think it is. I think it is. It's top of B for me. Because Iron Man One is so good, and Iron Man Three is just excellent in a completely different way. It does new things. Every one of them does new things. It is foundational, again, to like Yeah, in terms of historical importance, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

This is the other one that started the superhero phase of Hollywood.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Um, it it um has the it feels more cohesive than it should because they managed to get a good character arc for Tony Stark in all three.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Uh and that adds some serious cohesion. Uh three drops the ball and not letting Pepper keep her powers. Um, I think that would have been a more interesting relationship for them to deal with.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Um or at least get her um suit. Yeah, get her suit. If she gets in endgame, yep. What's the name of that? Yeah. It's medic something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

But um, really cool twist villain and a nice way to introduce a fake Mandarin, then you could later on use the real one that they did. Yeah. Uh which which was which worked for me. Uh so and two is not bad. The only problem with two I think two's pretty bad. The problem with two is that they wouldn't let them do the alcoholism arc. Um and uh they had to fake do the alcoholism arc. And if you know the alcoholism arc, you can be like, we're just pretending that he's alcoholic and self-destructive, and it makes this movie just way better. Um I think it's still a perfectly strong film. That's why I'm gonna I'm gonna do that. And one is just incredible.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

So um I'm gonna put it in B. Above Guardians. Above Guardians. Below Batman. Below Nolan Batman.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

I'm almost talking my way into an Iron Man A. I'm gonna move it up to A. Yep. Okay. It's going up to A. It's going up to A. Right. After Guardians, after Guardians, after after. After. You don't understand what the word after means. Well, are you saying this after or this after?

SPEAKER_01 34:58

No, that's before. Why would before be after Donald? Never mind. Why would be before? Do you read from right to left? Uh sometimes. He reads comments. Knock it off manga. Okay. All right. The J.J. Abrams Star Trek trilogy that came out Okay. This is gonna be fun to talk about. A passable Star Trek movie, a bad Star Trek movie, and a top five Star Trek movie.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Top five. Let's see. Where am I doing?

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Star Trek Beyond? Top five.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Beyond is a really good movie. It's good. I just didn't know Dan would have that strong. Top five. Top five Star Trek.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Top five Star Trek.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Um we have Undiscovered Country, which is number six. Yes, but okay, for me, it's um it's first contact is number two.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Well, I'm not I'm not saying these are in order. Okay, okay. Undiscovered country is is a top five. Uh First Contact is a top five.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Um is a top five. Uh the Wales one is a top five for me. I love the Wales one. Partially because it's the first one with Saund Theaters with my brother and things. So yeah, this would be number five for me. Okay. This might be.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

I agree that four is a top five movie, but I would put Star Trek Beyond Above it.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Okay. That's defensible. Uh, we may have to rank those sometime. All right, top five Star Trek movie. There you go. Yeah. Um still lands it in C. Um for me.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

I'm gonna put it in D. Okay. And here's why. I'm gonna do it. Because in terms of its impact, um JJ Abrams and his writers played so loose with the technology of Star Trek that we are still dealing with dramatically. We're still trying to deal with it. Uh they it they broke canon in so many ways that irked me so much.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

And it kind of ruined Star Trek, and we still haven't gotten past it. All right, slip it down to a D. I'm gonna go with them. All right. Um, three is generally good. And one, the casting is amazing. It's a good film. Oh, yeah. Two is so monumentally bad. Uh and I say this just with all fondness for JJ. He's made some fantastic films. I will say, as bad as two was, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

My one big problem with three is that they didn't keep Alice Eve.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Um she could have been such a great addition to the crew. Uh they needed more women anyway. Uh we got Jayla and she's great.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

But Donald, I can't keep it in D. I'm putting it to C. Going into C. Going back to C. All right. I can't because the casting is so great in one. And the whole breath of fresh air that it felt like after they had run next generation films to the ground. I think we are forgetting how good we felt that film was when we saw it. Because we're just like, okay. It's not a great Star Trek film, but it's a great action film in the Star Trek universe. And all the movies are action films. Yes, they are. Right? And I'm okay with that. Yeah. The movies can be action films. Um, and so as a Star Trek film, not as a Star Trek episode, uh, one is that I I I have to put it like a seven and a half out of ten. Um that is fair. Uh, but but two is like a two. It's like I would not watch the like Spock punching con is so none of it worked. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

Um I I rate the first one pretty high as well. Yeah. But like they teleport at ridiculous, insane astronomical distances. Yes. They do all kinds of stupid stuff. Um I I have to put it in D as a protest.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

As a protest. I I morally support you in that, but it ended in as a C minus to me. Fair. All right. All right. Let's do one more. Um The big this is a pretty big one for the last one. Lord of the Rings. I'll do Lord of the Rings. You already mentioned it. All right, we have to do Lord of the Rings.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

So Lord of the Rings, obviously that's S tier. Obviously, S tier. Um, in fact, I'm gonna put it. Let's see, we gotta rank them. I'm gonna put Indiana Jones first in S. Okay, so right here. No. This okay. Oh my god. Donald, what is wrong with you? I'm making sure. Some people do them different ways. That's why. Oh my gosh. Indiana Jones. This is so bizarre. Left to right, Donald. Left to right. Left or right. Um, I'm no, I'm gonna put Lord of the Rings first. Above Indiana Jones.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

I'm going to put it first also. Yeah. Um, and um I'm gonna put Indiana Jones above Back to the Future. Okay. Um the reason we have to do this, I think your reason might be the same as mine, is you will not find a trilogy more cohesive. Right? Right. With the arguable exception of Back to the Future. No, this is more cohesive. It was made knowing it would be a trilogy back to the did one. They said it'll be back, but they didn't know what they were doing. You're very good. They had to add a character arc from Marty. Um now, Lord of the Rings is cheating because it has the source material, but they could have ruined that source material and they didn't. And I just reread the books. Like, there are a few places where the books are better, but there aren't a lot. And there are a ton of places where Peter Jackson added a bunch that is great. Yeah, I I'm I'm one of these that's like the interaction between Sam and Frodo, where Sam uh leaves, is better. It is stronger narratively. Uh Helm's Deep, way stronger. Uh, I know this is blasphemy, but Tolkien wrote the books at an era where there weren't like he didn't have what we have now, which is you know, an entire century more almost, 75 years more, of how to build arcs and how to deal with them. He didn't have any of that. He built invented this thing whole cloth. It's amazing. Um but with you know, another 50 years of experience, uh, we can say, hey, giving character uh Aragorn a bit of a character arc, actually struggling.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Gorin gets a character arc, Farimir gets a character arc. Um, a lot of this works better. Now, this I will also say is a strong contender for the third one being the best one. Uh and here's the thing Two Towers is my favorite, yeah. But, and we've talked about this before on the show, if you take out the silliness of the big green undead blob kind of just swarming over the field at minus Tirith. Yeah, um three is just it has incredible moments. I think it has better stand-up and cheer moments. Okay. Um, it has better lines, it has Thaedin's speech, it has I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you. Like it's good stuff. I think it is incredibly strong, and we remember it as weak because we all laughed at that very silly undead arm.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

There is no better stand-up and cheer moment than when Gandalf arrives at Helmstead. Oh, I disagree. That is the great moment of the films because it's such an improvement on the books in part, but also it's just it's so beautifully paced and plotted, uh, where you forget about it. And that is what elevates two to I think Okay. That is totally fair. Three is close. Because that is an excellent odd. Because one is a ten out of ten.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Uh so there we are. Um we we differ on which one we'd pick. I still haven't picked one that I think the third movie is stronger, the strongest. But you have. You've uh you've said that uh I'm gonna say uh Born the Third One is the best. Both of them.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Third Lord of the Rings. No, I'm still torn because Two Towers is my favorite. So I won't say that, but I will say uh Born Ultimatum is best.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Okay. Uh join us next time when we do the other half and maybe find something that actually belongs in D rather than just a protest D. How's that, Ben?