A Force To Be Reckoned With
A Force To Be Reckoned With
241. What Makes a True Leader? with Dale and Brian Karmie Pt. 1
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Welcome back to another week of A Force to Be Reckoned With! This week we are excited to share an episode that also went out on The Impact Without Limits Podcast. We are sharing a conversation with two people who have poured so much into us over the years, Dale and Brian Karmie.
We are talking all about leadership, growth, and how to be a person of Impact. Make sure you come back next week for part two, and check out their podcast!
Setting The Stage: A Shared Episode
SPEAKER_01We are at war, and it's not against our neighbors, spouses, children, politicians, or whatever else we feel like we're battling against.
SPEAKER_00So the questions are: who's to fight against? And are we winning or losing? We're the advocates, and we are a force to be reckoned with.
SPEAKER_05Are you ready to join the force?
SPEAKER_04Welcome back to the Impact Without Limits and And a Force to Be Reckoned With. This is a double-duty cross-pollinating two for the price of two episodes.
SPEAKER_03You left that hanging. You said welcome to the Impact Without Limits podcast. And a force to be reckoned with podcasting. But nobody ever said podcast in that whole intro. You did.
SPEAKER_04And you see, we didn't want to leave you up. There you go. All right, so here's what we're doing. We've got Dale and Brian. Dale's here. Wait, I introduced you as Brian. And Brian. Bethany Adkins.
SPEAKER_00It's the last episode of the day, so it might get a little silly.
SPEAKER_04Hey, F is for fun.
SPEAKER_00Yes, we're here. It weren't those things.
SPEAKER_04We are doing something we've never done before, which is we're recording an episode that will be our podcast and on your podcast. So both audiences will get a chance to hear this.
SPEAKER_00Millennials call that cross promotion.
SPEAKER_03This is double the power. Yeah. Double the retreat. We call it the double power hour.
SPEAKER_00And here we are.
SPEAKER_01Oh it's a double dash bar. Have you guys seen Bergatzi's uh new stand-up? This is like a double dash.
Naming The Theme: Leadership
SPEAKER_04Apparently I haven't. I love Nate Bergatsi, but I don't know the double dash.
SPEAKER_01It's when you order DoorDash. It's he sets it up that it's something that you do that you wouldn't do yourself.
SPEAKER_03What is this DoorDash thing you guys keep speaking about?
SPEAKER_01It's on the internet. It's this thing, it's like an app on your phone which connects up to the internet and then you can order food.
SPEAKER_00Well, tell him what a double dash is.
SPEAKER_01So a double dash is okay, I'm feeling maybe a Big Mac from McDonald's.
SPEAKER_04Yes, I have to do that.
SPEAKER_01But I also want a blizzard from Dairy Queen. Now I'd be too embarrassed to jump out of the McDonald's line and go drive through the Dairy Queen line, but on DoorDash, you can get them from two different places.
SPEAKER_00But you space out the drivers enough that they don't come to your driveway at the end.
SPEAKER_04That's his shtick, right? You can't have the driver show up at the same time. Right. Yeah. I did see that.
SPEAKER_01Because then the embarrassment is still there. Mr.
SPEAKER_00Healthy Oakers, this is where the magic happens.
SPEAKER_03Right here. You guys are witnessing it live. But you know Nate Bargetzsi.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah. The Christmas special episode was fun. He did the manger scene version of the George Washington skit. He's hilarious. I love Nate Bargetz. He's funny. It's a good one. Okay. Yeah. But this isn't a podcast about Nate Barghetsi.
SPEAKER_00No, it's actually do you guys know what this episode is about?
SPEAKER_04No, we don't.
SPEAKER_00Do you?
SPEAKER_03She didn't tell me.
SPEAKER_00It's a it's an episode about leadership.
SPEAKER_03Leadership.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So.
SPEAKER_03Which to this point in this episode has appeared to be lacking.
SPEAKER_00Who's taking it?
SPEAKER_04And that's what we're trying to show. It was like that episode where we did the chaos of the speak with one voice and everybody's speaking. And this is an episode of what happens when there's no leadership. And all of a sudden, a double dash. And that's what happens.
SPEAKER_00No, but how many minutes are we in? No. Seriously, this episode about leadership, really excited about it because you guys are the gold standard leaders in our life.
SPEAKER_03Well, no. Remember Kenny Thomas. I don't saw yourself.
Leadership As Action Not Title
SPEAKER_00Until today, until Kenny. No, but we were talking about leadership on the last recording day, talking about some of the flaws in the just in the leadership world. It seems like leadership is has become a buzzword. Do you guys feel that? It seems like it's been hijacked a little bit. Do you feel that, or is that just our generation?
SPEAKER_04Um, I think everyone is seeking good leadership, and there's sometimes a vacuum and it gets filled with things that maybe aren't good examples of leadership, and people just throw stuff out there and it gets sucked up. So, yes, I think Yeah, you slap a label on something. Right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it seems like everybody's seeking good leadership, and then there are people who are self-proclaimed leaders that don't aren't necessarily leaders.
SPEAKER_04I agree with that 100%.
SPEAKER_00Like there's this era of life coaches, leaders, and where's the track record?
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this. If you're out there telling people you're a leader, you probably aren't.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's great because that was my first question. Do you guys consider yourselves? Are you going out there telling people I'm a leader?
SPEAKER_03Look, what am I gonna say now? Yeah, uh I I don't I don't go out and profess that I'm a leader and that I uh uh have incredible knowledge on leadership skills and that I'm somebody somebody should look to, but I believe leaders step up in the situation, right? Leaders come out of action. Uh and um, you know, do we lead? I sure hope so. We we we have a family that we lead, we have a company and organization we lead, a business, we have dealers that we lead, uh, and we step into that role, but it's not because we said we were leaders and we we put something out there and then tried to fill a position. It it just happened.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I would say that um I would consider myself a student of leadership. Like I want to be a good leader, and I I learn and study and practice and follow good examples, but I am certainly not a self-proclaimed expert on leadership. Um, I'm willing to share my experiences, and I think that's what this podcast has been. And to be honest, I mean, you encouraged us to do this podcast, and we're like, eh, does the world really need another podcast? Does the real word world really need to hear, you know, anything we're going to say on leadership or business? And and your answer was, well, you guys have your story, your experiences, and so we're just willing to share that. And yep. Um so I I don't know if that answers your question, but I would say I I if somebody were to ask, are we leaders? I guess I would say yes, but I certainly wouldn't say uh we're experts on leadership.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean it does, and it is it's a helpful start. So what you're what I'm gathering is you didn't wake up one day and say, I'm gonna become a leader. It was something that has become developed in you through the trials and life and the life journey that you've set out on.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. I I think it life presents you with situations and opportunities. Uh you don't always know what they are. Matter of fact, I think most of the time you don't know what those opportunities are, whether it's a positive opportunity or a challenge or what have you. Um but if in the moment you step up to the task, if you if you if you step out and and you do what you think is good and right, you become a leader, right? I mean, that's I I think that's what a leader is. A leader isn't a name tag, a leader isn't necessarily something you learned in a classroom, although I think leadership skills can be learned and can be taught. But it's stepping into the can be. You're saying they can be but but it can, but it's stepping into the moment. When the moment arises, stepping in. You don't always know what you're doing. Look, we've said it before, we've often felt like um you know the wizard of oz, you're hiding behind the curtain, and people think there's something incredible going on behind the curtain, and what you don't want is them to peel back the curtain and realize you're back there pulling strings and pushing levers, and you don't really know what you're doing. Yeah, the old imposter syndrome. But you're willing to step into it, even when you don't know, even when you don't have all the answers and you work your way through. So on one hand, Brian, I agree we aren't experts in leadership, but on another hand, we are, because we've we've continually stepped into the roles and the opportunities have been presented to us, and sometimes we've done things really well, and sometimes we haven't, but we've continued to to to I think move forward and become an example that people could follow. Yeah.
Servant Leadership And Purpose
SPEAKER_04I I think there's there's some elements there that like I have for years like studied leadership and and you know listened to people that I think are great leaders and are experts and and I want to apply some of that. And I think early on I did it because I wanted to be seen as a leader, and that wasn't very effective. And it isn't until you kind of have those moments where you're thrust into duty or you're thrusting, you know. We just talked to Kenny Thomas and he was talking about when you're in the battle, you're not thinking about self-preservation, you're not thinking about yourself, you're thinking about how can I serve, save, help the others. And I think you know, a true leadership really comes down to serving other people. And yeah, sometimes you maybe you get tricked into it a little bit and you start reading and studying. And and I, you know, a big one for me, I remember early on was reading Jim Collins, and he's talking about level five leaders and the selflessness that comes with that. And I'm like, oh my goodness, that sounds a lot like Jesus. And then you start to think, okay, this idea of servant leadership, and we've talked about that, but the idea of, you know, I think truly great leaders aren't focused on, hey, look at me, look how good of a leader I am. They're they're focused on their team, their people, the people they're leading, and how can we serve and help and and guide them? And if we do that well, I think that is good leadership. And so it's I I guess maybe I started seeking leadership for the wrong or the the principles of leadership for the wrong reasons, but at some point in there it shifts and you realize no, great leadership is really about other people, not about me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think you you hit a real uh real salient point, a real powerful point, which is the purpose of leadership. Yeah, the purpose of leadership is uh doing something that is an example to others or serves others or helps others, that's true leadership. If the purpose is, like you said, people call themselves leaders. Well, what's that? That's inward facing. I'm gonna call myself a leader, I'm gonna act like a leader to serve me. That's not leadership.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's an interesting or it's a fake version of leadership.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. I I joked in the beginning that you guys are the gold standard of leaders, but in all seriousness, it was a joke. I wasn't joking. Now in hearing you guys talk, it might be true.
SPEAKER_03So I was thinking maybe we were bronze or pewter leadership level, but yeah. We're climbing up the precious metal scale.
SPEAKER_00Maybe silver. Um no, but I think we've all sat, and sorry, I know you have questions too. I know, I think we've all sat under bad leaders and not intentionally bad leaders, but you know that feeling where you're kind of like I don't know the word, like thumped down by them. Like you feel I've I've noticed it because I've had your leadership. You guys are my uncles in my life. And I have to mention my dad and Uncle Jim too, but I've seen leadership lived out my whole life. So I know what it feels to have a leader that compels you and inspires you and makes you feel like when you walk away, you know where you can grow. You always want to grow, but you also feel like you could run through a brick wall. And that I think is what leaders, what a good leader is. But also, so then on the flip side, I think we've all sat under leaders where it's like, I feel it's not a good feeling. You feel like maybe scared to make a mistake or micromanaged in a way, and it's not an intentional thing. But I I'm curious to hear like your struggles as a leader or to somebody out there who has maybe been thrusted into a leadership position and they can kind of feel do you know what I mean? There's like a vibe that is a dynamic that isn't lined up. Can you speak to that at all?
SPEAKER_03I mean, I'm gonna come back to what we just said. I think that shows itself when the purpose of that moment is exposed. If that person is doing what they're doing for their own good and their own benefit, that's gonna be self-serving and they're going to demean, diminish, micro-minute, right, control a situation because they're not worried about the people under them, they're worried about themselves. Whereas if Brian was talking about the servant leadership, if a person in that role is looking to serve the people who are following them, the people who are under their command or under their direction, that selfless focus inspires people, lifts them up. And and and I think that defines that difference.
Good vs Bad Leadership Feel
SPEAKER_00But um, but could fear play into that as a leader, like fear of con sure.
SPEAKER_03Well, I I would tell you, you know, I think you you asked, do we have any struggles in that area, or at least I heard that. And my answer is yes. Um, there is a confidence level, right? You you mentioned the imposter syndrome. Sometimes you're you're doing things and you're getting sometimes credit and accolades for being um uh like in our example, and we're a small company and we're we're we're we're a small business, all that, but we'd have people say, Man, you guys have built something truly amazing, you've done this good stuff. And I'm sitting there thinking, I don't know what I've done. I like I I don't have that special that special sauce, and you're afraid that at some point somebody's gonna realize that you're not who they think you are, and so there's that lack of of self-confidence, self-worth, even in the moment of sometimes of good things happening. Um, so and yet you're in a leadership role because people are following you, or you're right, or you're in that area. So uh sometimes you it it's almost like stepping out on faith. You have to step into and act as if something from whatever other podcasts act as if you're you're you're really who they think you are, and and then in that process, you be you sometimes become it, right? It becomes almost a self-fulfilling prophecy.
SPEAKER_04But if you're doing that, this and I totally agree with what you're saying, and you're doing it for the motivation of hey, it's I want to pretend to be that, or I want to because I want people to see me and think how good I am, that's wrong. But if you're doing it with a serving motive, uh serving others' mentality of this is what's needed in this moment, yeah. I've got to go beyond what I'm probably capable of.
SPEAKER_03I think most of the times for me that uh that I find myself in leadership roles or opportunities, I I feel like I maybe wasn't prepared to be in that moment.
SPEAKER_00And how do you range the occasion?
SPEAKER_03You just step into it.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Right.
SPEAKER_04I mean, some of it's faith, right? For me, and I this is gonna speak for you there as well. It's it's assuming, you know, uh the the saying God doesn't call the equipped, he equips the called, right? He he puts you in a position, he calls you to do something, and then he gives you what you need to get it done. Um, that doesn't, you know, give us a pass on preparing. It doesn't give us a a pass on trying to be our best and to learn and grow and be prepared for those situations. But when the situations come, just about every time you feel overwhelmed or underprepared or you know, whatever. But you just have to step into it and trust that if God's putting this in front of me, he's gonna equip me and he's gonna give me what I need to get it done.
SPEAKER_01So just back to the growth aspect of it though, too. In any of those situations where you felt like you weren't um equipped or you weren't enough to be in in those situations, and I know that you said that you at first started reading books and listening to podcasts and stuff like that to to be known, but was there a sense of I don't know what I'm doing here that then encouraged you to seek out information through books, podcasts, conferences? Yeah, because you hear it said that you know businesses, organizations are capped by the growth of the leader. So I think there's also a lot of people out there that maybe think that they know that they think that they have what it takes too, and they have blind spots and they're not willing to grow and learn. Yeah, and that they're capping their business and their organization because they think they know everything.
SPEAKER_00Do you think that's true?
SPEAKER_01Sure, absolutely.
Fear, Imposter Syndrome, And Faith
SPEAKER_04And I think um, you know, being self-aware is probably one of the most important traits of good leadership and being willing to be honest and say, here's where my shortcomings are. But some of it is putting yourself in the position, being willing to take that step out and being exposed and being vulnerable and realizing, okay, this is where my gap is, and then saying, okay, now I need to learn to fill that gap. And you know, that's when you go back and say, okay, I, you know what, I thought I was good at leading this team. I realize I'm not. I've got to get better. So I need to learn in this area or grow in this area. And and then, you know, seeking wise counsel, reading, listening to podcasts, doing doing, you know, whatever it is that you need to fill that. Um, some of it you learn from experience, and some of it you learn from the experience of others. Twice bit in one shine.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. You you you step out and and that you're you're maybe sometimes Corey's thrust into the situation where you're in that leadership um position, you have that dynamic in play, and and you don't you don't rise to the level. Um because there's failure, right? We've failed over and over, uh, but you don't curl up and say, I'm never doing that again. It's like, okay, like Brian just said, what can I learn from that? What can I take away? And the next time I'm in that position, what can I do differently? How can I handle it differently to to be better? And and there's also an element there as a leader of I think there's there's maybe a rawness or an openness to go back to some people in situations and say, look, I screwed up, I didn't handle this one right. Um, I wish I would have done it this way, I wish I would have done it that way. Uh, but nonetheless, here's where we're at, and this is how we're moving forward, and you go. If if you try and hide behind this facade that says, I'm always right, I'm the leader, don't question me, everything's always good, that man, that that's that's fake. And people are aren't going to appreciate that. But you come at it with a sense of um humility and ownership that says, you know what, I missed that one. Sorry about that. You know, let's strap it up and go back at it. I think that earns loyalty, trust, confidence because um they know in that moment we're coming back to the same themes that it's not about you, it's not about me serving me, but it's me serving the role that I was in. And yeah, I can admit we screwed up, but let's correct it and move on.
SPEAKER_01It's authenticity. I feel like so much, so many people are just craving authenticity.
SPEAKER_04But you authenticity is so interesting because you sense it, right? When somebody's faking something, you sense it. And and when somebody's authentic and they're real, you sense it. And you know, um, I so I I humility is, I think, another key trait, but there's a fake humility where somebody's like, oh, sucks, you know, I'm not gonna that that's kind of put actually off-putting a little bit, but true humility combined with a growth mindset, right? Of hey, I might not have what it takes for this right now, but I can grow, I can get better, and I can learn and get good enough. So, you know, being self-aware to say, okay, here are my gaps and humble enough to say I don't know everything, but then having a growth mindset that says, but I can learn, I can grow, I can get better, and next time be prepared for this situation.
SPEAKER_01It's funny. We were talking before, and I just feel like it may have just clicked with me is that there's there's like two types of people out there that turn you off. There's the people that do it take a lot of action but aren't willing to grow and read and listen and do all that. And then there's the people that do nothing but personal development but aren't willing to take any action. And it's really the blend of the two things.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And it it's fine. We just finished the interview with Kenny Thomas, which I think this on our podcast airs after. I don't know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But uh we were talking to him and and the whole idea, and I I was trying to ask a question. I don't know that the question ever came out right, but it was what you were just saying, which is at some point you've done this learning and growing and preparing, and that's critical. But until you get in the game, until you go out there and get it on, as uh you know, his uh title of his book. Uh until you're in the battle, y it doesn't it those things don't do anything. So you can sit in a show and you know be book smart, but until you put that into action, the greatness can't be shown or can't be developed or can't be refined.
SPEAKER_03I'm baking a cake, but I never take the ingredients off the shelf or out of the refrigerator.
SPEAKER_04The cake one anyway you never put it in the oven, right? You might even stir it up but you never put it in the heat.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so I see I'm an expert on baking cakes and we all know how many cakes I've baked.
SPEAKER_04Dale the cake is like surfing.
SPEAKER_00It's like Martha Stewart.
SPEAKER_03Weren't you cake boss?
SPEAKER_01You kind of look like oh yeah they just call me boss for short. I don't ever think I've seen a cake from you. You would be correct.
Growth Mindset And Self Awareness
SPEAKER_00Twinkie maybe yeah so two struggles that I've witnessed and also experienced just in different leadership positions is I think um I want to try on word this well because Ken can Kenny actually was talking about it today and I was like this is the heart of what I want to cover. He was talking about how the leaders above him because you asked who like who one of his favorite people to work with were and he said that the leaders put him in a position to they trusted him enough to say go do this and I trust you and I'm equipping you and I'm emboldening you to this decision is yours. But if you mess up you own it you you own it but also as the leader they're saying whoa we have your back. Like you're not putting fear into your team member or whoever you're leading where it's paralyzing them. And I think maybe that is that micromanaging like the struggle of micromanaging for like as a leader you have fear that you don't trust that person or you know what I mean like it's going to hurt your team I think it's one of two things micromanaging or also um intimidation of like are they going to outgrow me? Do you see what I'm saying? And I don't I that's one thing that I've seen a lot and when I come to you guys you people flourish under you guys. Like it's been so cool to see family members that work for you guys, people, acquaintances that we know that have been at Foreverlawn and you I see them 10 years ago when they started and I see them now and they're different people. Like they flourish under you guys.
SPEAKER_04And so I'm just That's one of the kindest things I've heard. I I appreciate that very much and um you know I I we we talked we were talking about fear. I don't know if it was this podcast or another episode but we were talking about the fear of looking foolish. And I think as a leader um sometimes you have a fear of looking foolish like hey if I put somebody if I give somebody this opportunity and they fail that failure's on me. Or what you were saying is if I give somebody this opportunity and they outgrow me, then I'm not needed. Right. And both of those come from that fear of looking foolish or feeling of being unimportant or feeling of you know yeah I and so I think that's where humility is saying look I I don't really care what people think right I'm not doing this because I care what people are going to say about me. I'm doing this because it's the right thing to do. And you know we we want to create opportunities for people and we want to put them in position to succeed. Do people always succeed? No people make mistakes and but we've made mistake after mistake after mistake but you learn from it. And as long as somebody is willing to learn and grow I'm willing to put them in that opportunity to make the mistake. If somebody's making a mistake and they don't learn from it that's where we have a conversation that's like hey this this might not be the right fit.
Learn Then Act: Into The Arena
SPEAKER_03Yeah so this is an interesting one because this is a struggle for me. Which part of it the the the the leadership and the the delegation and allowing people to to step out um because and just personal examples as our company grows you know when when we were smaller we had our hands in everything right we installed we sold we did the books we did relations we answered the phones right we did it all and you like to believe and you like to think you're the best at what you do right you do we we tried to do everything well tried to be as good as we could be and and then you also develop uh we create a DNA of of our company of our business of how we want things done of what we want done and whether it's uh how we're gonna advertise or market something and what we're gonna say or how we're gonna do this how we create a product or name something and as you grow you can't maintain all of that right so you have to start turning that over and you're training people up you're trying to teach them we say we're trying to teach people um on one hand that we want their creativity and their knowledge and and and what they bring to the table but the other hand we want them to understand what we're trying to accomplish and what we want that thumbprint of forever on to look like and so you give people the the freedom to go out and do things you said right the the freedom to go out and and and try something and the freedom to fail and it's hard when you see somebody do something they're doing it for the right reason they're doing it what you know with what they believe is the best everything put forward and you see it and it's like oh missing the mark. Oh that's that's that's hard. And and so a couple things have to happen. As a leader like you said I have to be willing to accept that I have to be willing to own it. Like if as a leader I have somebody who does something that doesn't turn out right and I point my fingers and say oh our company we had that problem because so and so did this if I'm shifting that that is poison is gone. But not just their competence the whole company you're you're creating a an environment that is that nobody's everybody's like I don't want to step out and do anything because that's going to happen. But you also can't ignore it because you want to grow you want that person to have the opportunity to grow you want them to develop from it. And and that's a that's a fine line you have to walk or right you have to thread that that pass right down the middle of all these defenders to make it right. And and that's hard. And I I'll come back to um you know one of my heroes Ronald Reagan trust but verify trust people to do the work but verify it's done right. Verify it's what you want. And if it isn't there's a responsibility both on the side of the leader and also on the side of I don't know what we're going to call it the follower or the team member the leader to um allow that to happen but then in a positive way constructive way come along and say look this is what happened I really the vision we had for it was this and we want it to happen this way and the next time we go through it I would approach it like this right to do that in love and humility but then of the person to be receptive to to realize it's okay to fail and it's okay if I'm called out because I did something wrong and let me learn from it and how do I do it better. I think that responsibility is on both sides but in in my role of leadership that's that's a challenge. That's hard.
SPEAKER_04It's a challenge but I think you've you've done it well multiple times and many times but one that I mean I it was just at dinner last night and it and it came up and I'm gonna give a shout out to somebody on our team Aaron Gresl right and I was with a group of dealers last night and they were talking about when you introduced him on stage as the installation leader and he's you know I don't know what he was 20 something. He wasn't that then I don't think he was young and I think there were a lot of dealers like okay this kid's going to be teaching us how to install it and but what I have seen in Aaron is this willingness to grow and not just accept feedback but seek it out and you trusted him and you put him in positions where he had to be an expert on things and maybe he wasn't quite prepared for and he made mistakes but it was never a a hard slap of oh man you screwed up or it was never making him look foolish in front of other people to make yourself look good. It was hey Aaron uh here's what I would do differently and and learn from it and and he has had an incredible growth mindset and even now I can even you know we've we've had things recently where he's seeking feedback and saying okay that's I let me let me learn let me do that better. And when you see that that's encouraging right that's one of those things where you know you say you you see people well that's the flourishing I'm talking about right there.
SPEAKER_00Like I didn't have Aaron specifically in mind other people but he's a perfect example. And I would be willing to bet if in his early 20s if you just had said to him one day, but you're not ready yet. You're not ready yet. You're too young you're not ready yet he might not be up for everyone anymore. But that's what you guys do for people. You believe in people before they believe in themselves and you put them in positions to be willing to step up to the plate and stretch and grow. And because of that people stay and they stretch and they grow and where it would be so easy as a leader to say it's not worth the risk. He's not he might not be ready and it's not worth it.
SPEAKER_04And you guys take that risk and it develops a that's what's missing in the world that where I say the gold standard I think yeah my my uncles would there is discernment there too like there are people that we've said I don't know and they might not be it for everyone anymore.
SPEAKER_03I mean some of it is it's got to be not everybody's not everybody's ready but and I think maybe what you're getting at is sometimes we saw in them what they didn't know was there themselves. Yeah and we we put them we move them in the position that stretches them and yeah gives them the opportunity to step up and fill that role but I that's a that's a good example because I do remember having having that conversation with Aaron driving down the highway in in Arizona and telling what what it was going to be and his answer was I I'm not ready.
Trust, Micromanagement, And Ownership
SPEAKER_04Yeah he's I I don't I'm not ready for that role and it's like you are you are and and and he had that fear that people aren't going to respect me people aren't going to believe in me and and and it's like they will in time it might take time but they will and step into the role but he did an amazing job of stepping into it doing his best the first year or two getting beat over the head by people that didn't want to talk to him didn't want to believe in him didn't want to follow that lead of somebody that was new in that role but he stayed at it and were mistakes made sure they were but you he always was always looking for that feedback like you said of how do I get better how could I have done this differently and at the dinner last night I had three different dealers talking about or three different dealerships or four talking about how good Aaron is now and how he can command the room and he knows his stuff and and now he engages people and when he's doing trainings he trains people and he's the the one of the comments was he's never belittling even when people say things that maybe aren't right he doesn't like say oh that's stupid that's wrong. He engages well because hopefully that's the way we engaged him and trained him and it was never smacking him over the head or oh that's stupid or right. I mean words are powerful and you have to you have to be very careful with the words you use you could say something I mean I I think about there there are comments that people have made to me that greatly impacted my life that they would never remember that they even said and it probably goes the other way too there's probably things I've said to people that I don't even remember that I said but they've been hugely impactful hopefully positively one way possibly negatively because man words matter.
SPEAKER_03I I I I do this with my kids a lot and I know you do games like this but uh and and now it's Colton Jenna that are still at home but we'll have an experience where I and uh usually it involves something retail you're at a store you're at a restaurant or maybe we're at an airport dealing with customer service situation and I and I'll just say how do you think they did at delivering that message right and and we analyze it and I just ask them and and they'll say man that was that was really bad. Like the way they handled that the way it was very negative and I said could they have delivered that same message differently and what would that have been and what would the change in the outcome be and they'll come back and they'll say well if they would have said it this way and and we like role play it that's such a good teaching and it is and and they get it right and we've done that since they were were younger right we're going through a drive-thru window and somebody's like here's your food and somebody else is says hey you know thank you for coming by today here's your thing anything else we can do for you and I'm just like look at that the interaction is the same the experience is the same the food is the same everything the same but how what they said and how they said it can completely change the whole interaction um but taking moments like that to learn and to teach in real life that's that's I and that is so powerful and and I I love to do that with my my kids and and I do it myself right that it starts with you got to do it yourself.
SPEAKER_04You've got to constantly be a student of any interaction why was that good or why was it bad and if you're asking that and you're thinking through it it's it's a way to learn from everything that you do you know the yeah as a as a parent right you yeah I don't you see something and you're like and then and then you're coming back saying okay how do you think that was my message really delivered yeah what if I would have said it this way and look we all step in it.
SPEAKER_03But if if if you realize it and then the next time you come by it's like let me change that approach it's there's a lot of application there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and in reality that's how God is with us. It's like we continue to mess up over and over and over again. And he just so kindly and lovingly and graciously guides us through you know he's sitting there thinking like dude why'd you do that? You know but he's so gracious about it. I want to also so you don't have to give your own example one of the things that has made me stick at Foreverlawn for 14 years now and it wasn't intentional. They've been trying to get rid of years how do we get rid of this guy without a HR catastrophe HR nothing I'm worried about the family catastrophe. Yeah yeah just kidding Bethany coming and doing something to your house um but and I didn't even know this you know going in when I started but that I've admired about both of you and I've watched I've been around for 14 years I've watched you guys make mistakes I've watched me make mistakes we all we're not perfect but that you did you gave me the freedom and I I don't do well under micromanaging so like my personality type doesn't do well under being micromanaged is that you've equipped me and given me the freedom to make decisions with guidance and it's allowed me to to thrive in where I'm at and I've always appreciated that too that you've never you never demeaned me or anything I've made a wrong decision. You've guided me through it helped me learn through it but there it is freeing to know that we can as team members at Fervalund that we can make decisions and that you equip us to do that. And I think that if you didn't do that it would also handicap the business.
Delegation, Guardrails, And Culture
SPEAKER_03Oh it does develop any stifle creativity you stifle motivation you stifle um engagement fun I mean so much there and I appreciate you saying that Corey and you know thank you for for calling it out and I think one thing is we we try to lead like we would like to be led and I I'm the the guy that never wanted to be told do this and when that's done do this and when that's done do this and that step so I I'm the guy we're like tell me where we need to be I know where we're at and and say okay get me there. But you do we do have to put up guardrails. Yep right it's not just a free for all because we have core values we live by we have a culture we live by there there is a framework because if I tell you to get from A to B, you could get to B and you could get there a way that is outside of how we want our business operated. So you do have to define guardrails and lay that up but then allow that person the freedom to work within those guardrails and when they bump a guardrail they it's it's you kind of like nudge them back in but you don't come up and whack them on the head. Somebody blast through the guardrail and was going down the the cliff and things like that. Then you might have to get a little more right a little more engaged a little more forceful but it's it's um both in and as a parent again with kids like kids want guidance.
SPEAKER_01They want things they they want guardrails things that they know okay there's a boundary here you can't go outside that boundary they want help to it but then you also give them the freedom to operate uh you know along that path I literally had this conversation with Carter last night because we were he he has an iPhone but we have the parent like limitations on it and everything and he constantly wants us to push the the guardrails that we have on it and um I said to him last night that he was like well why do I have all these limitations on my phone and why am I allowed to have an hour and none of my friends have this and I said oh man that's I was like do you want me to put a case of energy drinks on the table and just walk you know it's 10 o'clock at night and walk away and you know just have at it you know that's what I'm doing by handing you this phone without any limitations is just letting you make all these choices. It's like one day you're gonna be on your own to make these decisions but it's my job as a parent to put these guardrails. You can you have the freedom to make choice I said all everything where you're at right now the limitations you have on your phone that you know success you're having at basketball whatever is based off of the choices and the decisions that you have made up to this point. And but it's my job to so we give you the freedom to make those decisions but you have to operate within these guide rails.
SPEAKER_04Yeah absolutely what I love about what you did there was you explained the why behind it not just because I said so here's what we're gonna do. This is our rule but you explained the why and I I know so many times I mean you know our our kids went to a small or four girls small Christian school and it's a pretty conservative community and we were still the strict parents in that culture right and so many times they'd be like you know Dad why why can't we do this or why and that's when they come over to fun Uncle Dale's or crazy and get a cake. But but my answer was always you're welcome because the easy thing would be to say no do what you want. But the harder thing for us to do is to limit you but we're doing it because it's good for you and here's why and try and explain the why behind it sometimes they get it and sometimes they don't but I think being willing to engage that it it helps them to to think through it and process it and accept it a little bit better and and understand those guardrails better.
SPEAKER_00And you have adult kids now you both do. And I know you both were strict parents so just now do you regret being that strict?
SPEAKER_04No I should have been stricter.
SPEAKER_03Okay I no I I I I look at my kids and first of all to me the biggest blessing or biggest compliment I could ever receive is somebody saying something good about my kids or seeing my kids living a life that is just awesome and and they are yes we've been very blessed to have amazing kids and and the biggest um pat on the back goes to Lori because she was the one that was there when I'm when we're out running the business and working 14 16 hours a day and you know six days a week and all this um so I'll accept some praise on her behalf uh but uh but yeah I I look at that and I can see a difference in how I parented Derek and Kaelin from how I parented Colton and Jenna and there were a lot more there were a lot more freedoms I think we all didn't there were a lot more freedoms allotted to the younger that I I wouldn't have given to the older and I some of it I think was maybe bad some of it you look back and say man I got a little lax I should have stuck with that and others were okay I I learned from the first ones and and this was okay and that was okay but the other thing that happened like the younger ones that I might have loosened my guardrails a little or we might have loosened our guardrails they also had siblings that enforced certain expectations Expectations and guardrails and things. So there was a level of parenting happening happening that wasn't now dependent on Lori and me, just but it was the family. It's the culture. We talk about it for Evelyn. We build the culture, right? At Forevlon, we we defined what this culture was and we worked to create it and establish it and put into place. But now we don't control that culture. The people that work at Forevalon control the culture. And if they like it, they're going to enforce it and hold people to it. And if they don't, it's going to fall apart. That kind of happens, happened in our family unit too. Um, but but the the that was a long answer. But the short answer is yeah, I look back at it, I'm I mean extremely happy with all my kids and extremely blessed. And there's some areas where I think, man, on the first ones, I probably was too strict, and on the last ones, there were times I was maybe not strict enough, but the that center lane, that main guardrail we had was consistent for all of them.
SPEAKER_04And and yeah, and I just I agree. I want to clarify, I said that in jest. I have four incredibly wonderful daughters, and they are they're awesome. And I'd agree with Dale. My favorite thing, like my favorite daughter, yeah. Yeah, like hold on, yeah. That's next news. No, the the is for somebody to compliment my kids, right? And and I see that. Like when I I when we meet other people and you see their kids, like I when I see your kids, I know more about you than anything that you're gonna tell me or any interaction I can get with you in a short period of time.
SPEAKER_01We're in trouble.
Coaching With Words That Build
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you guys have you guys have they represent you well. No, but that's that's so when people, you know, when my daughters represent us well, or you know, represent themselves well, but in turn representing you represents us well. Um, that's one of the proudest uh moments, right? I absolutely love that. And you know, you know, you we're just this is a little bit of a side, but we're talking about parenting and and how it's different for the younger kids than it is for the older kids. And by nature it will be because your family dynamic is different, changes, right? You get like a simple example, like you know, watching movies, like you know, my it's funny when Julia was in high school. I I don't think we allowed her to read Harry Potter, right? And then Ava, but when she starts watching it, right? Now I she might not have been high school, it might have been junior high. But then Ava at a younger age, like the rest of the family is watching, what am I gonna do? Tell Ava you've got to go to your bedroom? You can't, right? Right? Like at some point, she's naturally going to see things at a younger age than her older sisters didn't see till she was older. And so to think that you can be completely consistent and parent the first kid the same as you parent the last, you can't. And hopefully, I've gotten better. I've learned things with the first one. So f family dynamics change. And all the kids are different. The kids are different.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, each kid is gonna react differently, respond differently to different sisters.
SPEAKER_01Finding out parenting is like a microcosm for leadership for business because it made me go back and think.
SPEAKER_04Or is business a microcosm for parenting? Because if we're gonna be honest, parenting is probably more important.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's true. That's I agree wholeheartedly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, more people probably experience parenting though than running business. Yes, yes. Uh my so my it made me think when we were talking about the the guide rails or the guardrails, is one of the things I had told Carter is that the the better, the more good decisions he makes, he earns the ability to get maybe a little more freedom. Yes. Is that true in business too? Do you find that when people have results, people are you see them handle things well or making good decisions that you also give team members more ads?
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. 100%. If if if you if you loosen, uh maybe a bad way to say it, but if you loosen the reins and let somebody do a little bit more, step outside the zone, have a little bit more responsibility, and they serve it well, then I'm gonna give a little bit more, and I'm gonna give a little bit more. If they don't do it well, they don't necessarily want to jerk back the reins, and and but but that's when you come along and say, okay, let's see what happened to do. But yeah, I I think uh as you get rewarded with more responsibility as you effectively uh fulfill the responsibility you've been given or you've stepped into.
Pause For Part Two Tease
SPEAKER_01All right, everybody, we are going to pause here because if you don't know us, we got a little long-winded. So we're breaking this up into two,