Impact of Brain Injury on Family Members

In this episode of The Sharing Experiences With Concussions/TBI podcast, Caron Gan, a Registered Psychotherapist and Marriage and Family Therapist, welcomes Anne Sanger, Stacey C., and Madeline Roitman to talk about what life is like for families whose loved one has suffered from a traumatic brain injury (TBI). 

Listen in as these incredibly brave caregivers share their stories and experiences of caring for their spouse, brother, and child who are recovering from brain injuries. They highlight their initial thoughts and feelings after the injuries, the most significant impacts the injury has had on them and their families, how existing healthcare systems can better prepare families for life after brain injury, and how roles, responsibilities, and communication dynamics have since changed.

Transcript

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Narrator (00:00:01):

What is a brain injury? The answer to this question is more complicated than it may seem.

May (00:00:07):

I didn't realize the scope and the challenges until I started to struggle.

Stephanie (00:00:13):

Concussion will change very quickly and rapidly week by week. And we need to adjust very quickly that

Ryan C (00:00:18):

Pretty hard to self-identify. When you have a brain injury,

Catherine (00:00:21):

Approximately 80% of adults in the justice system who are incarcerated, have a history of brain injury.

Narrator (00:00:30):

Our brains are intricate, comprised of billions of neurons, responsible for how we think feel, communicate, and experience life. The significant role our brains play in our everyday life is what makes experiencing an injury to it. Traumatic.

Stacey (00:00:47):

And I got a call from one of Jake's friends saying that he'd been in an accident

Vijaya (00:00:52):

Most of the time it's been ignored. So they feel very isolated.

Ryan C (00:00:57):

I didn't tell anyone. I just mean you just keep going, right?

Blair (00:01:01):

Light, sensitivity, sensitivity to noise. The irritability, the fact that like things are making you dizzy when they're passing by like all these small signs are things that nobody really understands

Narrator (00:01:14):

Approximately 165,000 TBIs occur annually in Canada, equaling out to 456 people every day. And one person, every three minutes as the leading cause of death and disability, worldwide brain injury is 15 times more common than spinal cord injury. 30 times more common than breast cancer and 400 times more common than HIV aids. What this also means is that by the time this intro finishes, someone will have experienced a TBI. It is because of the severity of this injury, that two leading organizations in the sector have come together to create a sharing experiences with a concussion or traumatic brain injury podcast, the Ontario brain injury association, and the heads up concussion advocacy network are proud to present yet. Another season of this multimedia series, as we continue our mission to create a deeper understanding towards a varying impacts of this injury, and now a message from the executive directors responsible for creating this series.

Ruth (00:02:22):

Hi everyone. My name is Ruth Wilcock and I'm the executive director of the Ontario brain injury association.

Ryan S (00:02:28):

And I'm Ryan Sutton the executive director of the headsup concussion advocacy network.

Ruth (00:02:34):

I want to welcome you to our multimedia podcast series. The mission of OBIA is to enhance the lives of Ontarians living with the effects of acquired brain injury, through education awareness and support. We are so excited to have partnered with Headsup concussion advocacy network to publish this multimedia podcast series. And Ryan is going to tell you a little bit more about our partnership and the series.

Ryan S (00:03:00):

We are thrilled to be sharing a second season of the series with all of you this season aims to broaden the conversation around concussions and traumatic brain injury by highlighting different perspectives in topic areas that lack representation building off the success of last season. We've found new ways to facilitate discussions between people directly impacted by the injury while gaining up to date insights from industry experts. We are very proud to present the second season of this podcast series and hope you enjoyed this episode.

Narrator (00:03:34):

Thanks to Ruth and Ryan's commitment to education. This podcast will run throughout brain injury awareness month with episodes releasing weekly. During this season, we will explore a wide range of topics by highlighting group discussions that incorporate elements of lived experience and professional expertise in our collective effort to provide a diverse understanding towards the varying experiences of a brain injury. This series has been broken down into five parts, brain injury and justice, concussion, and TBI within the veteran community impact of brain injury on family members, recovery at home and accommodating a concussion in the classroom. Today's episode is brought to you by our sponsor GLA rehab and features a group discussion around the impacts of brain injury on family members. This episode was facilitated by Caron Gan, a registered psychotherapist and family therapist with over 30 years of experience, providing psychotherapeutic intervention to youth, adults, and families, living with the effects of acquired brain injury in both public and private sectors.

Caron (00:04:45):

It's, it's a challenging journey. And you know, even when you're in the early stages or later stages, the lived experiences deeply felt by all.

Narrator (00:04:57):

We would like to thank all of our participants for their willingness to share these experiences with us and our amazing episode sponsor GLA rehab for making this podcast possible.

HeadsupCAN (00:05:10):

The following podcast may contain sensitive material that could be potentially distressing or triggering to some people. If you require support, please call the OBIA helpline at 1-800-263-5404. The OBIA helpline offers confidential and emotional support for those who need a caring, compassionate, and non-judgmental listening ear.

Narrator (00:05:35):

And now please enjoy the conversation.

Caron (00:05:39):

Welcome everyone to this podcast on impact of brain injury on families. I'm Caron Gan, and I'm a registered psychotherapist and marriage and family therapist for the past 35 years. I've been really privileged to learn from amazing families. Who've inspired me in both my clinical work, as well as my research. And so I'm really honored to be hosting this podcast today on family impact after ABI and it's particularly timely because today, April 5th is national caregivers day. So what a way to tribute all the caregivers out there. I'm wondering if each of you can introduce yourself briefly you have a wealth lifted expertise. So I'm really looking forward to the panel discussion. If you can tell us your first name and share a little bit about your loved one with the brain injury, that would be great. So who would like to go first? Madeline?

Madeline (00:06:43):

Yeah, I can go. So my name is Madeline and my brother suffered from an ischemic stroke. When he was 14 years old. At the time I was in grade 12. So I was like about to turn 17, I believe. He was It happened while he was in, in gym class. He was running the beep test and he collapsed. And he was brought to sick kids where he stayed in intensive care for three weeks. And then following that he was InView rehabilitation center, both as an inpatient and then later as an outpatient for several months. So yeah, that's, that's, that's my lived experience.

Caron (00:07:25):

Thanks for joining us, providing the voice of sibling Madeline, would like to go next Ann.

Ann (00:07:32):

Hi, I'm Ann. I've been in this journey for two years. My husband had a massive ATV accident. He's 53 at the time. Then he went to Sunnybrook and found out he had, sorry to tell you massive cancer. We didn't know, and a major brain injury, but didn't find that out for a very long time and is brain injuries the worst, and that's where we're at.

Caron (00:07:55):

So you're fairly new in the caregiving journey, Anne, and we really look forward to learning from your experiences. Thank you for joining us, Stacy, just take your time, Stacy. Okay.

Stacey (00:08:11):

I apologize. So I'm fairly new in the caregiver role as well. I care for my son. He was in he was involved in a very bad car accident as a passenger in September of 2018 and has a catastrophic, severe traumatic brain injury, frontal lobe as well as multiple other injuries. But the brain injury is that the most significant injury. And we work with a team of therapist, speech therapist, occupational therapist, kinesiologist, physiotherapist, and we're moving forward in his recovery, but we're very early in his recovery. And that's what brought me towards Obi and trying to learn as much as I can and, and be as much support as I can for, for my son.

Caron (00:09:02):

Thank you so much for joining us Stacy. And I think for all the caregivers here, it's, it's a challenging journey and you know, even when you're in the early stages or later stages, the lived experiences deeply felt by all. And so I, I commend all of you for your bravery in coming and sharing your story with everyone. Now I'm gonna start off with the first question to reflect on what were your first thoughts or feelings following your loved one's injury?

Madeline (00:09:36):

I can speak if that's all right. Karen.

Caron (00:09:38):

Sure. Madeline.

Madeline (00:09:39):

Well, as I mentioned, I was in grade 12 at the time. This was my brother had a stroke in the fall of 2015. So about seven years ago approaching seven years. I remember when it first happened. I was at a physio meeting with my mom because I used to be a competitive athlete and she got a phone call from the school that something had happened to my brother. And I was like unaware of what had happened, but she rushed off to the hospital and the physiotherapist drove me back to school. And when I got there, people kept coming up to me and oh, is your brother okay? He was pulled out on a stretcher and I was like, what's going on? Cause the way the, the principal made it sound on the phone with my mom was just that he had, you know, fallen in gym class and then the principal got on to the loud speaker at the school and like announced that like someone had been brought to the hospital and I was like, oh my gosh, this is crazy.

Madeline (00:10:29):

Like I, no one told me that this is what was happening. So I ran up to the principal's office and they sent me down in a, in a taxi to, to sick kids to go see my brother. I remember feeling like really, really terrified in the moment because we didn't know what was happening. And I remember he saw me and he thought that I, he called me Emily, which is my younger sister's name. Which was just like very scary because I was like, oh my gosh, he doesn't know who I am. He wasn't able to smile with half of his mouth and I knew right away that that was a stroke symptom, but it didn't make any sense. He was a perfectly healthy 14 year old boy. Right. So there was in my mind, I was like, there's no reason why this, this should be a stroke.

Madeline (00:11:10):

I remember feeling especially terrified because I kept asking the people at sick kids who were there caring for him in those crucial moments. Is he gonna be okay? Is he gonna be okay? And they kept saying, like not saying, we don't have an answer, but not saying anything, like, just like saying, saying nothing completely silent. And so that in the moment for me was really, really scary. And the initial stages, I remember not thinking long term at all. I remember not thinking it was going to be long term thinking. It was, it was gonna be something that, you know, he was gonna be outta the hospital in three weeks and you know, that was gonna be that and things were gonna be fine. He also didn't lose mobility in half of his body until like 48 hours after his stroke. So especially in those early stages, I was like, oh, he's totally gonna be fine.

Madeline (00:11:51):

This is gonna be a fast recovery. I was more just concerned about it happening again. And that was a fear that I held for that I held for a really long time. But especially in those, like in those first, those first few days, those first few weeks, because they say, and the doctors were telling us that it could happen again and that they needed to monitor him. And I remember feeling highly, highly anxious about that in the early stages. Not as much long term, but more just, you know, in the immediate term, making sure that, you know, he was gonna be okay for now.

Caron (00:12:20):

Yeah. So those initial reactions were one of feeling terrified and fear that it would happen again and wondering what, what comes down the road. So a scary time for you, Madelyn, thanks for sharing. Who else would like to go next to share the thoughts and feelings Anne?

Ann (00:12:41):

Well, I in a very different situation, you know, massive trauma. When he got discharged from Sunnybrook, he was so injured. I won't even get into it that he was not even able to get outta the house. And his family doctor came to the home because he came home with no prescriptions and he needed medicines and she was amazing to come into the home. And she said, well, of course he has a massive concussion based on his injuries. Now that was the only thing. And a year later, I'm not kidding a year later cause we are dealing with so much trauma. I'm going to the fracture clinic at Sunnybrook very regularly by ambulance, cuz I couldn't carry him out of the house. The resident doctor said, well of course he has a TBI or an ABI or a year later. So nobody discussed it with me. It was a pandemic I wasn't allowed to go there. No doctor phoned me. Nobody told me. So it was crazy. And now another year, post two years post accident is massive and I'm not kidding. He has an MRI booked for me and he hasn't had one yet because his brain injuries are so bad. He won't even be able to do it because of the sound. So that's not gonna happen. I know it won't happen. So it's pretty serious.

Caron (00:14:10):

And it sounds like the information that you needed in the early stages were not there for you. And you're finding out much later,

Ann (00:14:19):

There was just so much trauma and injury and other issues that it wasn't a priority. The recovery, all the services like Stacy said, oh, hospital ward and OT physio, you can't even imagine was coming to my home. It was a hospital ward. And so it wasn't a priority. It was recovery priority first and getting his medication first and trying to get him comfortable first and the brain injury was so

Stacey (00:14:51):

Later.

Caron (00:14:51):

Thank you for sharing that Anne. Stacy, are you comfortable sharing your thoughts and feelings?

Stacey (00:14:58):

Yeah, so Jake's collision was, as I said, he was a passenger and he took the brunt of the impact in the collision. They were T-boned and I got a call from I apologize. We're just going through Jake speaks to a, a neuropsychologist once a week and we took a bunch of pictures and videos when Jake was in the hospital and I'm just in the process of compiling those onto a hard drive for him to see cause they felt it would. So it's taken me back right to that time. So that's, I'm gonna say that's why I'm so emotional right now is because I'm I'm right back in ICU. I'm right back in the ER room. And anyway, I got a call from Jake's one Jake's friend saying that he had been in an accident and that I had to get to the hospital.

Stacey (00:15:52):

And so I made some calls to our local police agency to try to find out what was going on. And of course, dispatch can't give any information. And then I was starting to get many more calls and text messages saying that I needed to get to the hospital. So I got to the hospital right away. And we couldn't, we couldn't see Jake because they were working on him and he immediately went into it's funny, but the vascular surgeon, Jake aorta was torn. So he had to go into surgery right away. And I remember signing the cause he needed a blood transfusion cause he had lost so much blood signing it with this big thick black Sharpie marker. And <laugh> I thought like you don't, don't normally wouldn't sign a consent form with the big marker, but that's all the doctor had on his, on his in his jacket.

Stacey (00:16:43):

So Jake wasn't conscious, he was he went into surgery for multiple hours and we actually didn't, we didn't get to see Jake for about five and a half hours after being at the hospital. And we, when we went in to see him in ICU, he had a, a trach and a, like what seemed to be like a hundred tubes plugged into him. He wasn't breathing on his own. His lungs were colo. He had severe damage to his liver and kidneys. His pelvic was completely crushed. He was in his self-induced coma for several weeks. So we didn't know the extent of the brain injury. And then he had his collision was on the 14th of September and four days later he had pelvic surgery. So they pinned and plated him back together. And when they were weaning him off the fentanyl pain medication, he suffered a severe seizure, which paralyzed the right side of his body.

Stacey (00:17:47):

And we knew that it had paralyzed the right side of his body because he had injury, which they said was conducive to brain injury movement. Like his leg was constantly going up and down and no control of his arms, no control of his, any, any part of his body function. So he was in a, he was in a self induced coma for several weeks. And then when he did come around, it was there was, his eyes would open, but there was nothing there. So over time we eventually graduated from ICU. And then we went to peds ICU because he was, he was a pediatric patient and he turned 17. He turned 17 just a couple days after his collision. And yeah, we didn't, we didn't realize the extent of his brain injury until after, you know, he, he came around and they tried to give him medication to try to make him more alert, to try to, to wake him up.

Stacey (00:18:47):

And he wasn't responding to any of that. So it wasn't until we were in, in the hospital for some time that we knew the, the extent and the severity of his, of his brain injury, not something you'd ever wanna see. You know, my boy was a, an honor student and he was a great athlete, you know, had lots of friends and the boy that he was with. I'm actually, I'm thankful that he wasn't a close friend. I'm not even sure why Jake was with him in the car, but anyway, his injuries were very minor treated that same day and left the bandaid or left the hospital with just a, a small bandaid. And we were in the hospital for five and a half months with Jake. So,

Caron (00:19:33):

So Stacy clearly this was a very, and continues to be very traumatic for you, especially having to go back to that time. And that story. So thank you very much for, for sharing that. Now I'm wondering what was the most significant impact to your family following your loved ones injury? How did it affect your family?

Madeline (00:20:00):

Well I guess I can, I can talk about our experience in the immediate, like right after my brother, Aaron got sick. My parents, obviously their, their full, you know, undivided attention was, was on him. My sister stayed at her best friend's house for like several weeks following the incident also because she had a cold at the time and they didn't want her in the hospital. So she couldn't actually see my brother until she had recovered. And then after that, she was quite young. She's seven years younger than me. So she was like nine at the time. Yeah. Nine at the time. And so they didn't want her to see him, you know, in the state that he was in. And then I, you know, for me, I, I was in the process of applying to universities and I was also a competitive athlete and that was my final season as a competitive athlete before I was going to university.

Madeline (00:20:48):

And that was kind of thrown out the window as well. Which was challenging for me at the time. But then at the same time, I'd feel such immense guilt. Every time I felt bad. Like every time I was feeling annoyed or feeling upset that I couldn't do the things that, you know, I I'd planned to do in my final year of high school. You know, my parents couldn't take me to any university tours. They couldn't come to any of my skating competitions. I was a figure skater. And I kind of just had to start doing more things on my own and relying, relying on our community in the long run, cuz it has been several, several years now. It still does impact my family for sure. I think that, you know, it's, it's, it's been very, very challenging on my parents and we're not the way we were before.

Madeline (00:21:33):

For sure. And in terms of like specific ways, I guess that it continues, continues to impact my family. I mean, my brother he's come such a long way and we're all like, so exceptionally, exceptionally proud of him. He's, you know graduating from engineering school next year, which is a massive accomplishment. He, you know, is able to ski again. He was a, a very avid skier before his stroke and it took him several years to get back on that mountain. The doctors of sick kids told him he never would and he did it. So he's come a very long way. But it was very traumatic what he went through. And I think we all, we all need to be very sensitive to that just in, in his, in his continuing behaviors. And the way he responds to situations. So yeah, I guess it's still, you know, he still is a priority in the family and that's just the reality of having, having a sibling with, with a brain injury.

Caron (00:22:23):

So the impact on the family was felt very much at the beginning, but it continues to be felt even years after

Madeline (00:22:30):

I think that's something like at, at the time I was thinking very short term. Right. I think, I think we all were, but it's continued. Like it'll always be a part of us now. It's not, it's not ever, you know, our family will never be the way it was before, before this. Before my brother had his, had his stroke.

Caron (00:22:47):

Mm-Hmm <affirmative> thank you, Madeline. Who would like to go next or would you like to add anything?

Ann (00:22:53):

I feel, I feel like we're going in order for every question. So it seems simple.

Caron (00:22:58):

Okay.

Ann (00:22:58):

Keep up with that order.

Caron (00:23:00):

Sure.

Ann (00:23:01):

I, at the time of my husband's accident I was living with my daughter. Who's 31 and she's been living with us full time. So my gut reaction, when I read the questions about what we would discuss today, my gut reaction of massive, most significant impact I would have to say is sound sensitivity. He was deaf before the accident, and now he's hyper sensitive to sound and that affects every single step you take in the house. Every chore you do, every movement, the two of us, my daughter and I are walking around on eggshells. Every single second. It's difficult to get anything done or turned on the dishwasher or do ALO of laundry or make a meal. Everything is worked around. Does he have this head noise canceling headphones on? Does he have ear plugs on? Is he outside? And the second he's got those things on or he is doing those things, we're running around like chickens, trying to get all these things done because we don't wanna bother him because he's very, very upset. My daughter's reaction when I asked her that question, she said the massive change in my relationship with my husband, which is of course massively true, but I find of course that's never gonna change. That's where we're at. And it's, it seems to be getting worse. It doesn't seem to be getting better. And maybe because he's on a lot of medication and he's in a lot of pain that it's more hypersensitive even now. Sorry, but that's the truth. <Laugh>

Caron (00:24:46):

It's often been said that every brain injury is different. You've seen one brain injury, you've seen one brain injury. So, and you know, in your situation with your husband, be hypersensitivity to sound is quite profound and that's a significant impact for all of you.

Ann (00:25:05):

It does. And also light massive issue with light. He's wearing sunglasses and binders along the side here, and he's wearing them in the house 24 hours a day.

Caron (00:25:16):

Thank you, Ann. Stacy, if you'd like to just share whatever you're comfortable sharing around impact to your family, that would be great.

Stacey (00:25:24):

Yeah. So I think initially the most significant impact was to Jake's brother who had just left the province to go to Nova Scotia for his first year of university. So the collision happened just, you know, a couple days after he arrived and got settled into residence. And so his first semester was severely impact impacted as a result of, of the collision. It's impacted us all in very, very different ways. It's impacted Jake the most. And I say to him that he's like the new improved Jake, cuz he'll never be the Jake that he was before, but yeah, it's, it's significantly impacted our entire family. You know, our work, our, our, our daily routines, you know, our, our therapists have become our, our extended family and the most supportive because they understand Jake's injury and it's hard because even close family and friends, they, they try, they're very supportive, but they don't understand the extent of, of his injury. So, and I definitely get the light sensitivity. Jake actually has glasses they're called F L 41 glasses to help reduce the glare cuz he does have sensitivity to light and the sunlight. And we definitely suffer from the the sound impact as well.

Caron (00:26:50):

So clearly there's been a ripple effect for all of you after your loved one's injury, it impacts the parents, it impacts the sibling relationships, the spouses. And so the family impact is huge. It's a family affair for all of you now, what were you least prepared for and how can existing healthcare systems better prepare families for life after brain injury?

Madeline (00:27:18):

I think I was least prepared for the long term impacts of what, what the brain injury, what the brain injury would look like, how it would change, how, you know, it would continue to impact my family for, for years to come. I'm not sure how the, how the healthcare system could adapt to that because, you know, they were saying the whole time, it was such a freak fluke thing that happened to my brother. They still don't know why it happened. So they had no way of knowing what was gonna happen or how he was, how he was going to recover what that recovery was going to look like. I just in the moment when it was happening and you know, for the first few months after that, I really saw it as something much more short term than, than it ended up being. So I think that, you know, that's, that's probably what I was, what I was least prepared for, I would

Caron (00:28:05):

Say. So the long term impact is something that you were not prepared for. You were thinking more short term.

Madeline (00:28:13):

Yeah, I think also, sorry, just, just one more thing to add about the sibling, the sibling perspective and being, you know, a young, a young sibling watching my brother go through this at the time. I don't think I was also prepared for, or I didn't really know how to handle all of this like newfound attention that I was getting in, in my community for having a brother who had, had gone through what he did. I remember the day after his stroke, I went to school and teachers who I didn't know were approaching me and, you know, asking me if I was okay and not being invasive, but like, it was like I was treated like, I don't know, like they, everyone was like walking on eggshells around me. Everyone in, in the community, my mom, one of my mom's friends set up a, a food service.

Madeline (00:28:56):

So we had different families dropping off meals for us every day. And I'd have people at school being like, oh, you know, my, my mom's making a meal for your mom later this week. And you know, it'd be kids who I would like never speak to or who had like never spoken to me before <laugh> and it was just a, that was something that I, I, I wasn't, I wasn't really prepared for. And I didn't really know how to handle that. I remember talking to my school advisor several weeks out and telling her to like, stop, like get, get the other teachers to stop talking to me in the halls. Like I don't, I don't wanna talk to these teachers who, who don't know me and who I don't, I don't know. The principal came up to me and like gave me a hug the day after.

Madeline (00:29:33):

And I was like, I don't wanna hug you. Like I <laugh>, I just, I, it was a lot of attention and I wasn't, I wasn't prepared for that. As a sibling and then also having to speak on behalf of my brother, because people were always asking, oh, how's he doing? Is he getting better? Is he, you know, the conversation was like always centered around him and his friends too. Cause his friends weren't really able to communicate with him. So they would always come up to me and ask me. And I was actually the one who went to tell all his friends what had happened to him the next day at school, cuz no one knew and no one had heard from him. So yeah, I wasn't prepared for that as

Caron (00:30:03):

Well. Although that extra help, like preparing meals or getting meals was, was well intended is absolutely.

Madeline (00:30:10):

And

Caron (00:30:10):

I, and unfamiliar place for you.

Madeline (00:30:12):

I wouldn't, I wouldn't change it for sure. I, our community really, really held us for sure. And I, I am, I'm grateful for all the support that we received, but at the time I think, you know, I was also like a self-absorbed teenager and there was just, I was like, leave me alone. Like I, I don't wanna, I felt like I needed, I needed more space. I just didn't really know what to do with all of this attention that I was getting or how to handle that in the moment.

Caron (00:30:37):

You also made an interesting point, Madeline, that everybody was asking how your brother was and I'm wondering what difference it would've made if people asked how you were and just your brother.

Madeline (00:30:50):

Yeah. I did have one. I had one teacher who I was very close to who was really just focused on me. And I think I really needed that at the time. And that was very, very helpful for me. I also had my, my figure skating coach was a massive support to me at the time because, you know, he was also just focused on me. I remember like a month and a half after this stroke, he was like, oh, how's your brother. And I was like, oh, that's so refreshing that it's been this long. And it's not something that I have to talk about here. Or something that I constantly have to report about or yeah.

Caron (00:31:20):

So people need to ask how's maddy.

Madeline (00:31:22):

That's how I felt at the time. That's how I felt at the time, for sure. Sure. And also, sorry, I will say, I will say one, one last thing. Something that I wasn't prepared for as well. I guess something that I just didn't notice before people make this comment all the time, like someone, you know, shakes or drops something. Oh my gosh. I had a stroke happens all the time and I had, no, I just, I didn't recognize this before. You know, I had this, this personal experience with someone so close to me having a stroke. But I remember like a week after Aaron had a stroke, I was sitting in English class and one kid in the class like sitting across from me was like acting as though he had had a stroke and like trying to make a joke about having strokes, not knowing, I guess like what had happened to my brother and maybe he did know, I don't really know, but I guess I wasn't prepared for you know, like how, how that would feel, you know, it wasn't something that I had experienced before, so yeah, that's something I wasn't prepared for as

Caron (00:32:15):

Well. Thanks so much Madeline and or Stacy, what were you least prepared for and what could the healthcare system do differently to help prepare for that?

Ann (00:32:25):

I think there were so many service providers involved with Steven's life and the coordination was incredible and the paperwork and the phone calls and the emails and meeting and setting it up and making sure he was comfortable. And did he like the person and would he agree? And there was so much, and he was really having a hard time with having to commit to meeting all these new people. He had no problem with taking help, but it was exhausting to even think about booking an appointment because you're, you're not working and you're home all the time and you don't know when you're gonna be awake and you don't know when you're gonna be sleeping and you don't know when you're in pain. And he tried for maybe a year post the accident to really try to do it himself. But everybody would text me and call me and say, he's not replying.

Ann (00:33:20):

He's not booking. So I ended up taking it all over and in the last year, the biggest difference has been, first of all, a lot of these appointments are paid for through the car insurance because it was an auto accident and it's a massive amount of paperwork to get a commitment from the insurance company to approve it. And Steven would have to meet them. The OT would have to write the assessment and we'd have to submit it and wait. And then that person might come and finally meet Steven two or three months later. And he'll say, I don't like them. No thanks. And meanwhile, it's been three months of work to get that person to the door. And then you had to start all over again and that's been very difficult. And also when he finally found someone he liked and they might have an appointment, booked somebody, a strange, a friend of his will call and say, Hey, do you wanna go out to me? He'd go. Yeah. And he'd cancel that first appointment. We've been waiting four months for, that's been really, really hard and he's like, I don't care. <Laugh>, it's just like, I'm gonna do what I wanna do. And he appreciates all the help and he appreciates all the service providers, but if he wakes up one day and he had a meeting and he doesn't wanna do it, he's not doing it. And he doesn't. So maybe empathy's gone. I'm not sure.

Caron (00:34:35):

So the influx of service providers, you were not prepared for and the volume of paperwork to complete all the forms and to get insurer approval, that that was daunting from the sounds of it. Yeah.

Ann (00:34:49):

Well, I was a former PSW, so I had a heads up and I was a former admin assistant. So I was all in like when he had his accident. Okay. Again, reminding you, I wasn't allowed to go to the hospital and I had weeks to wait for him to come home. I had my dining room table was full of files and faxes and paperwork, and it's all I did. And it kept me busy and it kept me distracted. So it was a good thing for me to have all these massive to-do lists. And I don't begrudge that at all because it seemed logical, but the amount of providers he's had over the last few years, belows my mind.

Caron (00:35:27):

Thank you, Anne, for sharing that, Stacy, would you like to add to that?

Stacey (00:35:32):

Yeah. What was I least prepared for initially? I'm gonna say the phone call that Jake was in the collision, never expected that you never expected it was gonna happen to your family. We had amazing support from the school in the community, which we're very thankful for. I wasn't prepared for the constant harassment from the media about Jake's collision. You know, he was in critical conditions for, for some time and I was not prepared for the media to not let, not be able to leave our family alone. You know, we don't live in that small of a town, but it just seemed to be the highlight. And the driver that was driving the car that Jake was in was the driver that was at fault. And I wanted them to highlight that story as opposed to, you know, here's my boy, who's the passenger who's fighting for his life.

Stacey (00:36:22):

So I definitely wasn't prepared for that. The healthcare system was amazing. That being said, when, when it's motor vehicle related, I wasn't prepared. I did not know that I would have to notify my own motor vehicle insurance company, that my boy was involved in an accident even when he wasn't driving. And thankfully we had the, you know, additional accident benefits if there was a catastrophic injury. So I'm thankful for that. We had an amazing adjuster. I didn't realize how much I would have to work with the insurance company. And I agree with the paperwork. I have banker boxes full of, of paperwork with the OCF eighteens from all the different therapists. Didn't realize the lack of speech pathologists that there, that there is in the community that we live in there isn't one that works privately. There is one at an acquired brain injury program, but because it's insurance related, Jacob doesn't qualify for those outreach program.

Stacey (00:37:17):

So our speech pathologist travels an hour and a half to two hours a day for, for Jake's and overall the lack of therapists in our community that specifically work with brain injury. And when you're working through the insurance company, again, you don't qualify for the local brain injury program, which I think is, is something where both family and the entire family doesn't benefit from because you are not able to be part of that local support group. And that's why I reached out to, you know, the interior caregiver organization and, and to Obi to try to get support for myself, to help support my family and to help support Jake. We were part of an acquired brain injury program through Providence care hospital. And they did a family meeting before we left the hospital to kind of set us up for next steps, moving forward for Jake, which I found to be very beneficial. And I feel that the connections that we made were in the hospital, I could call them back at any time or send an email back and continue to ask them for advice or if they had future suggestions. So I do feel that we do have the healthcare support, but you really have to be a strong advocate to get answers.

Caron (00:38:27):

Well, thank you, Stacy. I'm hearing from all three of you that dealing with the system has been a challenge and new learning for all of you, whether it be dealing with healthcare systems that don't have specialized ABI supports or social supports in the community, family and friends who are stepping into help or dealing with the medical insurance system and all its paperwork and all its forms. So it's a lot to navigate when people are already going through the most stressful time of their life. So thank you for sharing that and highlighting it.

HeadsupCAN (00:39:05):

GLA rehab is a multidisciplinary team of clinicians and practitioners that provide assessment and treatment services for traumatic brain injuries, spinal cord injuries, orthopedic injuries, psychiatric problems, pediatrics geriatrics, and chronic pain. The GLA rehab team works with clients through each step of the recovery, employing a personal and effective strategy for rehabilitation. From beginning to end, you can learn more about their work by visiting www.Gla-Rehab.com.

Caron (00:39:43):

Did your loved ones injury impact your emotional, mental or physical health? And if so, in what ways?

Madeline (00:39:53):

I guess I, I can speak to this one. I've always been a highly anxious person and following my brothers, my brother's injury, that was definitely, I definitely became more anxious at least for a period of time. I think moving forward has just become another aspect of, of my anxiety when I, when I, you know, do deal with anxiety, oftentimes it is relating to situations related to, you know, my brother and my brother's circumstances. And it used to be more like, is my brother going to be okay? I feel like that anxiety has stabilized since it's been considerable time. And he has been on a trajectory where he has been, been getting better and making progress for some time now. But you know, sometimes, you know, there are behavioral issues or I'll have conflict with him that are a result of, you know his, his brain injury.

Madeline (00:40:45):

And that'll cause me quite a bit of anxiety and that'll be hard to, hard to work through, but yeah, it's something, something I've always deal with. So it's not something that, you know, was born out of the brain injury, but it's something that, you know, has definitely grown with the brain injury. Okay. My physical health, I don't think, I don't think was impacted too much. I didn't sleep well for like several weeks after after he was sick. I also, I don't eat when I'm stressed. So I didn't eat for a really long time. I lost a lot of weight, but that was all short term.

Caron (00:41:15):

Thanks, Madeline. It's understandable that, you know, if one was predisposed to anxiety before that it would be exacerbated after the injury. Hey Anne,

Ann (00:41:26):

I think emotional, other people would have to answer that. It's really hard for me to judge that I was in such, I just wasn't dealing with a brain injury. So I was fortunate that I was sleeping and you know, shutting down that central nervous system and taking deep breaths is extremely important during a trauma. And this was a very long trauma physically. I found I was thrown into a massive PSW role in caregiving nursing. Like it was physically demanding, but that's not because of a brain injury mentally. You know, I have the calm app, which is amazing. I love that. And I had yoga practice in the background and I think the deep breathing seemed to be the best in listening to music. And I was going for a I'm going for massages because I really find my whole body is so massively tense up all the time. And I'm in a lot of pain because I'm so anxious all the time about all the things I need to do. So that's really been helpful. I need to start taking care of me physically because I need to be

Caron (00:42:31):

Well, it's great to hear how you are using a variety of coping strategies to help manage stress and anxiety. So thanks for sharing that. That's great to hear Ann Stacy.

Stacey (00:42:42):

I think the impact of, of the injury has probably made me much more emotional I'm okay. Unless somebody asks me how I am. So <laugh>, don't ask me how I am. Cause then you're gonna get my emotions. Unfortunately it has made me realize what is really important in life. You know, I've really grown as a person, as a mom and as a caregiver since Jake's injury mentally I think it's, it's kind of taken me down the path towards some occupational interest. I've taking some courses through Obi, through Brock university and neuro rehabilitation. So it's kind of given me a, a new, a new yearning to learn something new, to help Jake and physically yeah, it's, it's made me just be more aware of my self care and my mindfulness and, you know, taught myself how to ground myself in breathing techniques, that sort of thing.

Stacey (00:43:37):

Cause if I'm not, if I'm not good, then nobody's good. And if nobody's good, then that's not good for Jake. So I really need to, I need to try to do my best for him. The one area that it's probably impacted the most is my sleep. I don't sleep well, but I think that's just being a mom and, and full time caregiver. So there's some, there's some positives to it as, as much as everybody thinks that it's all negative. There are some, there are some real highlights and positives to things that we've learned through his injury.

Caron (00:44:04):

Well, I'm really encouraged to hear the theme around self care because this is something that's for the long haul and to keep one's coping and resilience, enhanced taking care of one's self, taking those breaks, the calm, the deep breathing, and trying to get some sleep. So good to hear that from all of you, how have communication dynamics changed within your family and what did you have to learn to adapt to,

Madeline (00:44:34):

Sorry, Karen, I'm just, I'm trying to construct an answer in my head that doesn't compromise. My brother's privacy.

Caron (00:44:42):

Sure. No, that's that's fair. Take your time with that.

Madeline (00:44:47):

Give me a second. Maybe if someone else wants to answer first.

Caron (00:44:50):

Yeah. And would you like to, to St start us off? Yeah,

Ann (00:44:53):

Sure. Yeah. Give her some time. I think part of the issue is if anyone's on medication, of course, and you've got a brain injury and your SCOs thoughts are scattered, things are misfiring and that makes it very difficult. I find with my husband's accident, he's overwhelmed completely by questions. He is concentrating so hard at trying to recover and manage pain and have some resemblance of a, a life. I find when I ask him a question he's begging me not to, he doesn't want to be overwhelmed and he's doing all he can to be stable and he can't handle it. So communication has been very limited. I listen. And I only ask him a question if I absolutely have to. And I have to really prioritize, prioritize what the question is.

Caron (00:45:55):

Thanks man. And the effects of a brain injury can complicate communication, cognitive communication, and processing information. So it's really understand understandable and how you've described what your husband's dealing with.

Ann (00:46:11):

Oh, and the other thing massively is since his accident and the brain injury, his short term memory loss is quite severe. His long term memory is fantastic, but short term, no, he'll say I gave his medication five minutes later. Did I take it?

Caron (00:46:26):

Thank you, Anne.

Madeline (00:46:28):

I can speak now, Anne, as I was hearing you talk about your partner, your husband being overwhelmed easily. I definitely relate to that. In my experience with, with my brother, especially at first, he was easily overwhelmed, like all the time. He still experiences sensory overload to some degree for sure at the time I remember it being challenging to, you know, once he was able to start doing things again, it was challenging to go and do those things with him. Like in public, I remember going to a restaurant with him for the first time and he, it was just like way too much sensory overload we had to leave. So, you know, that changed the dynamics of our communication at that time, you know, making sure that he wasn't overwhelmed kind of like changed you know, the situations we put ourselves in as a family, I think also he's he's very angry about what's what's happened to him as are all of we all of us, but you know, him in particular and rightfully so, I would be super angry too.

Madeline (00:47:25):

If I was, you know, a perfectly healthy 14 year old boy, very active, played a ton of sports top notch grades, and then, you know, has to deal with this right. And come out the other end. And he has come out. The other end, he really, really has, and he's, he's made substantial progress and you know, that's been, that's been really excellent and rewarding for him and also just, you know, for me to watch. But he still is quite angry. And so you know, there are things that you just don't say in front of him and just because it wouldn't be useful, like if I'm complaining about something that you know, something in my life that sometimes he's sometimes he's very empathetic, but other times, you know, if he's feeling particularly angry about his disability, he can't be empathetic in that way. Which I completely understand. I wouldn't be empathetic either. I'm sure. So I suppose that's, that's kind of like changed the dynamic of, of our communication as well.

Caron (00:48:19):

OK. Thank you. What would you like to add?

Stacey (00:48:25):

Yeah, it definitely changed our, our communication within our entire family, probably mostly between brothers. So, you know, with Jake's injury, it's it's fun lobe. So it's the sequencing, the processing his lack of empathy and, and hard at times, I think for his older brother to, to understand and, and the fact that it's a completely invisible injury, you know, to look at Jake, he looks great and, and he is great. Sorry, he doesn't just look great. He is great. But for others to see that there is that he does have cognitive challenges. He has new challenges. He has neuro fatigue. You know, there can be at times third speech, you know, they, they told us that he would never walk again and he's doing busier now is tolerated. And you know how his daily like his whole, and he's had to learn how to do everything again.

Stacey (00:49:19):

He's had to learn how to do every single thing over again, and, you know, being a healthy 16 year old and that, and now being, you know, he's, he's 20 and knowing that he's had to learn how to do everything again, the communication has been a challenge, but we've worked through it. And, you know, we take one day at a time. And I remember I remember the hospital and one of the doctors and this phenomenal told us that this was a marathon, not a sprint. And I go back to that quite often. And that gives me strength to know that, you know, this is a long we're into the long haul and we're doing we're training and doing what we need to do daily to get to a positive outcome.

Caron (00:49:59):

And I think that's a great segue to our next question around how did roles and responsibilities change within your family Lin? Yes.

Madeline (00:50:09):

Speaking, speaking from my own experience, I was always the oldest sibling. So I was always, you know, kind of in a little bit more of a caretaker role than my other two siblings, but following my, my brother's stroke there certainly was, you know, I did feel as though I had more responsibility, not my parents were expecting more of me. They were very, you know, hyper aware of, you know, what was happening and the impact that that would have on me, but just because of circumstances, right. There were, you know, several nights, my parents would alternate nights at the hospital. And my sister was like nine. And so I was, you know, often left with like one parent who would be at the hospital late or wasn't present. And it would just be me and my sister and I would, I would be taking care of her.

Madeline (00:50:52):

So that was something that changed in terms of our, our family dynamic that's the first, the first thing that, that comes to mind in terms of rules and responsibilities we spent, I would argue more time together as a family following my brother's my brother's brain injury, which, you know, as, as you were saying, Stacy you know, people talk about it, like it's only bad things, but you know, there were some, some positive moments as well. And in terms of roles and responsibilities, I guess, I don't know our role, like as a family together and our responsibility to each other was, was strengthened. Cuz we would always just wanna wanna be around each other and wanna be around my brother.

Caron (00:51:30):

Oh, it's here to, it's wonderful to hear about the growth and, and the positive changes that are happening in people's families in spite of the brain injury. So that's encouraging Anne,

Ann (00:51:42):

I guess the biggest change is we bought this property we're we live rural and we are massive gardeners, landscapers, qu ponds, vegetable gardens. It's a, it's a lot out there. And you know, I always thought that we would be doing that together and he is having a hard time with that. And he is not able to work ever again. So, you know, he used to, we used to love just spending our weekends or days off together doing that quality, spending our quality time together, doing what we both loved and that isn't happening anymore. That's a big change. And also for my daughter, who's massively involved with caregiving and happy to share and and assist. And I must say that Steven's her stepfather, so it's not her father. And it's a pretty big deal that a stepdaughter is so involved and so caring and so passionate, but it's a lot of responsibility that she's taken on. So that's been a massive change in her life.

Caron (00:52:48):

So we've heard this afternoon, how siblings have to step up to the plate as well as sons and daughters to accommodate some of the changes going on in the family system. So everyone is, is affected Stacy.

Speaker 15 (00:53:05):

I think the only thing that I can add is that it's just you know, my role of mom is still there, but then I also have the caregiver role. I kind of have the case management role. I have the advocacy role for, you know, advocating for the invisible brain injury. And you know what, it's, it's not 24 7. I don't have to worry about Jake overnight. I mean, I'm here with him overnight, but I, you know, I don't have to worry about when he is sleeping or anything like that, but it's just, it's been pretty constant and yeah, I'm, it's made me, sorry, I'm lost for words here. It's made me really pre appreciate what I'm grateful for in my life and how blessed we are that we still have the new improved Jake with us. And that's what I say. Sometimes I get frustrated and then I go back to, we created a gratitude jar. And so that we write down the things that we're thankful for or the best parts of our day. And just to take it back to the basics and to not get overwhelmed with thinking too far ahead of how, of how much this injury potentially could be. I don't know if that made sense, sorry.

Caron (00:54:04):

No, it's, it's wonderful to hear how we are focusing on gratitudes and the new and improved Jake and, and the things that have improved in spite of what's happened. And I think this is a great lead in, into the next question, drawing on your lived experiences, what would you recommend to others to help prevent burnout and stress and enhance coping and resilience? And I've heard some of you talk earlier about practicing the self care, the calm apps, the deep breathing, the relaxation strategies, other ideas that you have to, to recommend.

Madeline (00:54:45):

One thing that comes to mind too, for me, and this may be more specific to to siblings. Cuz I know my mom, you know for the, for the first several months following my brother's brain injury, both my parents were, you know, that was really all they were doing and all they were able to think about as a sibling. It was most of what I was thinking about. But I did try to get away in some sense. And for me that was figure skating. I would go skating multiple times a week and I purposely didn't tell anyone at skating about what had happened for like several weeks aside from my coach, because I just didn't want to think about it while I was there. And I wanted to have something that was separate a place where I could escape.

Madeline (00:55:25):

That was very helpful. I would, I would argue that was, that was the most helpful in terms of, you know, maintaining or managing, managing my, my anxiety at that time as both Stacy and Anne have suggested mindfulness practices work very, very well. I did participate in some of those and taking therapy seriously. We were required to do family therapy with home blur view following my brother's, my brother's brain injury. And you know, I learned a lot from that and that was very, very useful as well. So I guess advice I would give to other siblings going through something similar to what my family went through is finding an escape outlet and you know, using, using the resources you have available to you to practice mindfulness and wellbeing.

Caron (00:56:09):

Great ideas, Madeline. Thank you. And well, Natalie,

Ann (00:56:12):

You're amazing. You've done so well for your age. It's incredible.

Madeline (00:56:16):

Thank you so much, Ann. Wow.

Ann (00:56:19):

I'd say I maybe about a year post accident. I started doing psychotherapy because I was getting tired of talking to my family or friends. And I think that was really important because I don't want that to be all that I ever talk about with my family and friends. And I wanted to kind of close that door a little bit. That was very helpful. And I also didn't talk about my husband's brain injury at my work. So when I would go to work, people say, oh, how is he Postan and blah, blah, blah. But I never got into what it was really like. So I just wanted to go to work and enjoy my time and, and not think about it and have a break. Once all the PS Ws were here and he was comfortable and sorted out. And also now two years later, I would say that if someone wants to talk to me and I don't feel like it, I don't, I don't want to, I just send a text message and I say I'm not feeling it today, but I'll touch base with you later. And that was a hard thing for me to do, but I'm doing that now.

Caron (00:57:26):

So you've really learned to establish boundaries around when you talk about your husband's injury, who you talk to about it, and if you don't and if you need to take a break from talking about it at all, you do so, so really helpful tips.

Ann (00:57:40):

Yeah. Thank you,

Caron (00:57:42):

Stacy. What would you like to recommend to others?

Speaker 15 (00:57:44):

I agree with what Madeline and Anne have said for sure. Boundaries are very important. They're very hard to set. I've started setting boundaries as well, just to express the, the importance of the routine and your diet and to exercise. Not to lose things that you yourself enjoyed. Like Madeline said, you need to have an outlet. And initially that's hard. We're three and a half post three and a half years post collision post injury. And I'm just starting to reach out and do some things for myself and it feels, and it feels really good. It's, it's it's a sense of giving yourself a little bit of power. And if, if somebody offers help, don't say, no, they may not offer the help in a way that you need it, but maybe you can turn it around to a way that something that can help you in your weekly situation. And I've I'm, and I'm thankful for Obi. And the, the scale program that they did through the Ontario caregiver organization. That was, you know, when it, it talked about the different phases of caregiver and the different emotions and stressors and the importance of, of self-compassion self-care and all the resources that are out there to help you have that for yourself.

Caron (00:58:55):

And it sounds to you like you're doing a great job practicing all of that and putting it into practice. Stacy

Speaker 15 (00:59:02):

Trying.

Caron (00:59:02):

Yeah. Madeline I see your hand up,

Madeline (00:59:05):

Sorry. As two of you were speaking, something else came to mind that I wanted to, to bring up because I wish someone would've told me this earlier, earlier on in the game, and that is that, you know, going through having a loved one, who's gone through a brain injury. It really is a lived experience thing and people who haven't lived it or haven't lived your specific experience, can't understand to often the degree that you, you want them to. And that's been hard for me is, you know, I made a ton of friends at university. I've had a few boyfriends since then, and it's, you know, explaining to, you know, these new people in my life were very important to me, what my family has been through to people who, you know, weren't around when it was actually happening and have never had to go through anything like this before. So I guess what I would say is that, you know, some people may not understand, most people will not understand what you have been through as a family. And that, that is okay. Doesn't mean you can't have a relationship with that person.

Caron (01:00:01):

Yeah. That's a very insightful comment, Madelyn, thank you for sharing that. And I think your point about reaching out to people who understand your lived experience is so important. That's why podcasts such as this Orbi can really make a difference to reduce that isolation for caregivers. We're wrapping up with our final question. If you could offer hope or advice to someone who's loved, one has, has a brain injury. What would you tell them? And it sounds like you'd like to go first.

Ann (01:00:36):

Well first of all, thank you for Obi for I was part of the spouses of brain injured for two whole sessions, and that was really good for me. And I really enjoyed that. And I would recommend that if someone was interested, I have to say the biggest assistance I had in the last two years was his occupational therapist. I was very fortunate. We were very fortunate to have this amazing woman. And she's been with us every two weeks for the last two years. And she's done every report, both CFAs, and she's got so many different people involved in my husband's life that she knew would suit his issues. You know, if you are not happy with someone that is a service provider, find someone you like, because they're gonna be with you for a long time.

Caron (01:01:28):

Thank you, Ann.

Madeline (01:01:29):

I just jotted down a few things quickly what I would recommend to someone going through this. Practicing gratitude I think is, is, is a huge one. Stacy, you touched on that earlier. In addition to having strong communication with, with your community, what you need from them and what you don't you know, my mom needed people to make us food every day from September until like the following February. And she communicated that to, you know, the community and they were able to, to set something up right at my brother's school. And just like within, within our neighborhood, those are, those are two things I would recommend. I, I feel very fortunate that my brother has, has come as far as he had not to say that he doesn't still experience hardships that, you know, I never will. But I think, you know, he, all of us, I, I suppose, have, have developed a a newfound sense of, of gratitude appreciation and also just strength for having gone through this and having to have gone through it together as a family. We're definitely stronger. And you know, it's not to say that it's still, isn't hard sometimes, but, you know, I think we're closer because of it. So hopefully that provides some hope and comfort to someone listening to this.

Caron (01:02:44):

<Laugh>, that's a great way of Sy sizing that Madeline really inspiring. And Stacy,

Speaker 15 (01:02:51):

I wanna say that I'm thankful for the support groups through abaya with severe traumatic brain injury, it's been, you know, to share with strangers who understand where, you know, maybe your best friend or your mom or your brother don't really understand because they haven't gone through, they're not living in that situation. I agree with the, if there's no connection with the support team for the therapies that you need to find that connection, because they really are the people that have the, the knowledge and the ability to help that injury move forward and to grow and for neuroplasticity to take place and everything to rewire, never to give up hope. It's the brain's an amazing organ that you know, you just need time and patience, and we never thought that Jake would be where he is today. And he's, you know, he he's our hero.

Speaker 15 (01:03:43):

He is dedicated to his therapies. He's dedicated to his recovery. He's starting to understand, you know, the importance of his therapies and that that's gonna help him recover so that, you know, he can move forward in his life. He's young. He's very resilient. He's very determined and it's, it's really, it's given our family strength that we can get through any battle early in the hospital. A lady said to me, you know, well, if this was gonna happen to anybody, it's, you know, I'm glad that it's happened to you. And I was kind of taken when she said that. And then I kind of thought about it later. And I thought, you know, my grandma always said to me, you know, God, doesn't give you what you can't handle. It's just gonna make you stronger. And we have the support and the connections to get Jake through this recovery. And what she said to me now makes sense, because it was very chaotic and, you know, life altering, but here we are, we're moving forward and we're making progress and we've had very few setbacks. So I'm thankful for our healthcare system and our support groups and, and you know, for Lauren and everybody at Obi. So thank you very much.

Caron (01:04:49):

That was so beautifully said, Stacy, and what a wonderful way of ending our podcast. <Laugh>, I'm, I'm, I'm just so inspired by these messages of hope and gratitude and strength and resilience and how all of you have grown and continue to grow with your families through your lived expertise and experiences. So thank you so much for sharing your, your stories, your experiences with us. And I know other caregivers and service providers out there will really benefit immensely from your conversations. I wanna thank you all for taking your time to share your poignant stories. And I'm really grateful to all of you. The next podcast will be a discussion of recovering at home, following a brain injury. So stay tuned for that one. And thank you for joining us, everyone.

HeadsupCAN (01:05:47):

Thank you so much for listening to this episode on impact of brain injury on family members. If you' found the content in this conversation valuable, we would love to hear it. Please let us know by providing a rating and review of the podcast below.