Concussion/TBI within the Veteran Community

In this episode of The Sharing Experiences With Concussions/TBI podcast, Simon Kardynal welcomes May Machoun, Ryan Carey, and Blair Hennessy to talk about brain injuries and head trauma in the military and veteran community. 

Listen in as these veterans shed light on their experiences with concussion and TBI, the systemic healthcare problems veterans are facing in Canada, and how we can continue advocating for better treatment of veterans with TBI and improving TBI education throughout the military. Whether you’re a veteran, a medical professional, or a family member of a concussion survivor, you have the power to make a positive change, so let’s do this together!

Transcript

Narrator (00:00:01):

What is a brain injury? The answer to this question is more complicated than it may seem.

May (00:00:07):

I didn't realize the scope and the challenges until I started to struggle.

Stephanie (00:00:13):

Concussion will change very quickly and rapidly week by week. And we need to adjust very quickly that

Ryan C (00:00:18):

Pretty hard to self-identify. When you have a brain injury,

Catherine (00:00:21):

Approximately 80% of adults in the justice system who are incarcerated, have a history of brain injury.

Narrator (00:00:30):

Our brains are intricate, comprised of billions of neurons, responsible for how we think feel, communicate, and experience life. The significant role our brains play in our everyday life is what makes experiencing an injury to it. Traumatic.

Stacey (00:00:47):

And I got a call from one of Jake's friends saying that he'd been in an accident

Vijaya (00:00:52):

Most of the time it's been ignored. So they feel very isolated.

Ryan C (00:00:57):

I didn't tell anyone. I just mean you just keep going, right?

Blair (00:01:01):

Light, sensitivity, sensitivity to noise. The irritability, the fact that like things are making you dizzy when they're passing by like all these small signs are things that nobody really understands

Narrator (00:01:14):

Approximately 165,000 TBIs occur annually in Canada, equaling out to 456 people every day. And one person, every three minutes as the leading cause of death and disability, worldwide brain injury is 15 times more common than spinal cord injury. 30 times more common than breast cancer and 400 times more common than HIV aids. What this also means is that by the time this intro finishes, someone will have experienced a TBI. It is because of the severity of this injury, that two leading organizations in the sector have come together to create a sharing experiences with a concussion or traumatic brain injury podcast, the Ontario brain injury association, and the heads up concussion advocacy network are proud to present yet. Another season of this multimedia series, as we continue our mission to create a deeper understanding towards a varying impacts of this injury, and now a message from the executive directors responsible for creating this series.

Ruth (00:02:22):

Hi everyone. My name is Ruth Wilcock and I'm the executive director of the Ontario brain injury association.

Ryan S (00:02:28):

And I'm Ryan. Suton the executive director of the heads up concussion advocacy network.

Ruth (00:02:34):

I want to welcome you to our multimedia podcast series. The mission of Obi is to enhance the lives of Arians living with the effects of acquired brain injury, through education awareness and support. We are so excited to have partnered with heads up concussion advocacy network to publish this multimedia podcast series. And Ryan is going to tell you a little bit more about our partnership and the series.

Ryan S (00:03:00):

We are thrilled to be sharing a second season of the series with all of you this season aims to broaden the conversation around concussions and traumatic brain injury by highlighting different perspectives in topic areas that lack representation building off the success of last season. We've found new ways to facilitate discussions between people directly impacted by the injury while gaining up to date insights from industry experts, we are very proud to present the second season of this podcast series and hope you enjoyed this episode.

Narrator (00:03:34):

Thanks to Ruth and Ryan's commitment to education. This podcast will run throughout brain injury awareness month with episodes releasing weekly. During this season, we will explore a wide range of topics by highlighting group discussions that incorporate elements of lived experience and professional expertise in our collective effort to provide a diverse understanding towards a varying experiences of a brain injury. This series has been broken down into five parts, brain injury and justice, concussion, and TBI within the veteran community impact of brain injury on family members, recovery at home and accommodating a concussion in the classroom. Today's episode is brought to you by our sponsor, the Ontario brain Institute, and features a group discussion on the topic of concussions and traumatic brain injuries within the veteran community. This episode was facilitated by Simon card by a former member of the Canadian armed forces that served for over 26 years and became an institutional leader. When he was promoted into the trade of aircraft maintenance superintendent.

Simon (00:04:44):

It does have to come from a top these types of education components to help people understand what concussions are and not. It doesn't mean that it's a huge back to the head that has to stop at the top, start at the top rather and make its way down.

Narrator (00:04:56):

We would like to thank all of our participants for their willingness to share these experiences with us and our amazing episode sponsor the Ontario brain Institute for making this podcast possible.

Seth (00:05:09):

The following podcast may contain sensitive material that could be potentially distressing or triggering to some people. If you require support, please call the Obi helpline at 1-800-263-FIVE 4 0 4. The Obi helpline offers confidential and emotional support for those who need a caring, compassionate, and non-judgmental listening ear.

Narrator  (00:05:34):

And now please enjoy the conversation.

Simon (00:05:37):

Welcome everyone. I'm Simon Cardinal, the host of trench leadership podcast from the French, a leadership Dean podcast, designed to help emerging leaders across all professions as we lead from the front. But this is not why I'm here today. Today, we are gathered to talk about brain injuries and trauma in the veteran community. As a host, I've come to realize that very few people want to hear me speaking and that's okay because it's all about the guests. And so let's just get right to it. My guests have at least two things in common first. They're all veterans. And second, they have all experienced some form of brain injury or trauma. Hey everyone, how's it going today?

May (00:06:12):

Good. Thank you.

Simon (00:06:14):

Yeah, it's a real pleasure to have everyone here. Listen, before we get into this, what I'd like to do is maybe we can do a quick introduction of each person just to get to know each other a bit. And then we'll bash on may. I'd like to start with you.

May (00:06:24):

Okay. My name is I'm a retired veteran. I retired as captain PA from the military, but I was only a captain for maybe a month before retiring. Prior to that, I was a master one officer and my profession or my job was before retiring at the medical director of the physician assistant PA program, which is a university level program that the CA F was running. And before that before I became a PA in 2009, I was medical technician with the Canadian forces. And I was member of the Royal Canadian regimen, three RCR in UA for a few years, and I've done numerous missions. And I was also a member of the two field ambulance, which was a lot of it was combat missions. When I became a PA I served both in north bay in Trenton with the special forces. And then I got posted to board.

Simon (00:07:35):

Great. Thank you very much for that, Ryan Kerry. You're up next.

Ryan C (00:07:38):

Thanks Simon. I came to the, the military late in life. I, I was lucky enough. I was fairly good athlete when I was younger and played high school, grew up in Carlton place, Ontario small town in the Ottawa valley was recruited to play at a bunch of universities, decided to go play Acadia. Then I was drafted and played in the C. Then after the CFL, I, I I was in private business for a bit. And then I joined the military was commissioned and served in the Royal canyon regiment, mostly in the first battalion. Of course they said, we want to get you cross culture to every battalion, but I was in the first battalion, like the whole time. So <laugh> whatever. Right. and then I was medically medically released in September of 2016, had a pretty difficult transition.

Ryan C (00:08:31):

And over the last couple years have been working well, I guess I'm going on almost three years now been working as the director of military engagement and the director of operations for the concussion legacy foundation, Canada and under concussion legacy foundation, Canada is project and list. What we're heading up is to try to get where we're in the process of trying to advance the discussion on, on brain injury in the military and on and on research. So, so it's a good company to be in with all of us being veterans to have this conversation, cuz it, it needs to be had. And I'm, I'm happy. We're all here to do it.

Simon (00:09:13):

Thanks very much for that. Fantastic Blair you're up next?

Blair (00:09:17):

So Mike Blair Hennessey, my military career kind of began when I was 16. I joined the reserves. I did that part-time for a few years as a non-commissioned member and then I went right force in 2013 or 14. And then I was with one PV, C L I in Evanton for about four years and had a pretty big string of concussions from childhood, right on, up through from hockey. And basically that's how my career ended in medical release as well in May, 2018. But now I'm doing much better and working towards my master's in physical therapy and competing in triathlons.

Simon (00:09:53):

Fantastic. Thanks very much for that. I, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that you're surrounded by three Royals, so it's all I'm gonna put out there. I'm just gonna say it for the veterans out there. We'll totally understand that. So I think we can all agree that that's kind of fun. I'm sure it'll come up again. Well, listen folks, I think I just like to, let's just get right into it. I have a question here and I'm gonna put it out there and we'll see where we go in your experiences. What is the culture in the Canadian armed forces around concussions?

Blair (00:10:17):

I'll go first. I was a non-commissioned member. And to be honest with you, it's, it's not the best thing to have to go through. You start out and the people, you have a warrant officer in charge of your platoon and when you show up to work that day and you're not looking like the person that you looked like before it's a pretty big challenge to try to show someone you're injured without looking like you're injured. <Laugh> and you sound like you're having a hard time and people are anticipating you being able to complete your job and do your job the way you could the day before. You're not necessarily able to do that. And when you go through the medical system with concussion, as it's, it's a challenging thing to navigate because you're trying to look out for yourself, but you also are trying to find your way back into the platoon with your buddies.

Blair (00:11:05):

And it's not an easy thing to do. And even just as if someone going into physical therapy now, I think there's a lot of convoluted experiences going on for people experiencing concussion, going into Mir. And I think that's something that needs to either has been changed since I was released or something that needs to be worked on in the future. Because what I went through was pretty rough experience with how I was medically managed and had I been medically managed appropriately. There's a chance I'd probably still be serving and while I've moved on from that, it's something that other people may not have to deal with. If it can be sorted out appropriately in the future.

May (00:11:42):

Can I step in and and add to that? So I did not understand what someone like Blair goes through until I became ill and was being released as a result of numerous issues, or I didn't realize the struggle, just a reminder, like I said, I'm a physician assistant I'm I was a medical technicians for me for many years and I always thought the military has the best medical systems. And ironically, I taught the lecture to the physician assistant course in 2015, I believe. And concussion was just a small little blurb as compared to the rest of the neuro trauma that at least PAs were of looking into. I didn't realize the scope and the challenges that members go through until I started to struggle just like Blair. And I was a master warrant officer physician assistant that I knew the medical system inside out.

May (00:12:54):

I knew fairly as a master warrant officer, I knew my administrations. I knew all the different procedures and I struggled till I released. It was an awful experience releasing actually. And talking about the concussions. Yeah, I did not start to understand. And you are right with the stigma and trying to convince everybody that there is something wrong with me. I know everybody gets the PTSD diagnosis. It's so much easier to throw medications at you or to send you for, you know, an inpatient treatment that, you know, cost thousands of dollars. Meanwhile, I knew from my initial concussion that I had back in 2010, which I was able to, you know, return to work within two days of having severe concussion, losing consciousness, you know I should have even survived the injury and I went right back to work and I was still able to do my job and do all these things, but I knew what the sign and symptoms of were.

May (00:14:07):

I had the medical experience behind me and it was a struggle to convince medical personnels that you're not faking it. I struggled to even, you know, try to convince people that, you know, something that probably would've got blare into a trouble. I was able to a little bit get away with it only because I knew the system I knew when something I lost my temper or I couldn't, you know, just took off from the, you know, when I was with the transition unit, I knew to send an email the next day to say, listen, like I had no control over that. So I can imagine for non-medical professional to go through concussion. And I am right now in 2021, I was released in April, but yet in March I, I released in 2010, but last year in 2021, I was helping another female member get through the transition because it was horrible. And only now after releasing, she's starting to receive the help that she needs. And that's why I'm so glad that we're having this conversation because it needs to be had, and the system needs to change.

Simon (00:15:26):

I, I have a question about that may, but first I'd like to hear what Ryan has to say about this and, and then I'll come back to that if that's okay.

Ryan C (00:15:32):

Okay. Well, I, I certainly echo what Blair and may and may are saying. I mean, my experience with head injury in the military was, you know, PGI stick fighting, you get whacked pretty hard in the head. You see some stars, well, everyone just calls it a ringer and you, you keep going. You know, I remember I remember you know, being in Afghanistan and getting, getting too far ahead of the second wheel on a lab and almost getting my head torn off when the lab started shooting at at the bad dudes we were fighting. And so I think we miss a lot of, of, and of course I didn't, I didn't tell anyone, I just, you just keep going, right? There's no blue tents on the battlefield or, and in, and in training you know Blair hit on it. There's this, this peer pressure, which is good.

Ryan C (00:16:24):

The peer pressure is good, but when it's not good, when someone is not identifying with your injuries. And so what happened with me is, you know, played high school football for five years, played university football for four years, played in the can football league and then served in the entry for infantry for 14 years. And not one person during the whole time that I was seeking treatment, like may said, I was diagnosed right away with PTSD. No one even asked me about head injury. It wasn't even part of the conversation until I said, recently, you think this might be something. And then, you know, the psychologist that I'm working with now, she says absolutely is something that has to be looked into. But if you look at that whole transition period, it was just an utter, I mean, they're asking me to do things and my brain was damaged.

Ryan C (00:17:20):

I mean, yes, your brain gets damaged through not only through head injury because I, I call it the rubbernecking effect. Right. It's like, well, they are in Afghanistan. So it must be what they saw in Afghanistan. Okay, sure. Yes. I have trauma from Afghanistan, but I'm gonna tell you right now I've, I've worked through that very well. I've dealt with a lot of that. It doesn't keep me up at night. It doesn't, but I'm still having these side effects of, you know, these, these depressive days, these, these you know, and we can get into talking about how, how to mitigate that. But when you're trying to work within a system you're injured. So you can't, and, and, and the people that you're working with, aren't identifying with your injuries. And then there's a lot of, in my experience, there's a lot of patient blaming you get into this.

Ryan C (00:18:10):

Well, you're not doing what we're. And I'm like, well, no, because there's six medications you want me on? They're not working. I feel worse. I'm not like it's getting worse to the point where my, the mother of my children said, we have to fire this psychiatrist. You're working with. She she's, she's brutal. She's, she's absolutely like <laugh>, you know, and, and, and, and I couldn't identify it. I was just, I was trying to listen to everybody and it was so contradictory and it was so frustrating to go from such a person. And, and, and I'm sure all of us are like this high performing and high. And then all of a sudden, not being able to perform the most basic tasks and nobody recognized it, it was more like Blair was saying, and it's like, well, you know, what's wrong with you. I dunno, what's wrong with me.

Ryan C (00:18:57):

So I think when we're talking about systems, change is, is, is, is, is what MAs talking about right away. The first thing is, is the bystander model. I mean, how does someone identify that they have a head injury when they have a head injury? They don't, they're trying to, they're trying to unscrew themselves. They're trying to just survive. And so it takes someone else to go, Hey, wait a second. Maybe that behavior change isn't because they're a jerk or they're a, or, or they're, they're, they're a disciplinary problem. Maybe it's coming from some somewhere else. When someone, all of a sudden starts acting differently. Like you start have to start asking the questions. And one of the questions that a medical professional should be asking is head injury, exposure to trauma. You know, and, and there there's a, there there's a lot of factors when it comes to dealing with the mental of health challenges that we're dealing with as in the veteran community. But I could, I could honestly say that one factor that has not been addressed in the past, up until recently is head injury and its effects on mental health. And we know that there's effects on mental health when it, when it comes to head injury, the research is very clear through the states, right? So

May (00:20:08):

Can I add one point to that one with regards to the research that's obvious and head injury and being research, the problem is the military is not following the up to date research. The the veterans affairs just released in their salute magazines. And they're so proud of it that they published a guide to physicians to give them, you know, directions on how to members this guide is based on eight and eight research. And I can tell you now that I'm fairly versed in all the different articles and going through appeals through veterans affairs, that at that time in 2008, I think if that research was taken into contacts, it was, it was, you know, ahead of its time, I would think, unfortunately, you can't live in 2008. You can't live in 2016 when it comes to brain injury, let alone in 2018 because the, the research is expanding so much, and there's so much information for treating and diagnosing concussions.

Simon (00:21:22):

Find that interesting in that. One of the things that we always hear about is how we're able to keep moving forward and learn from the things that we've done in the past. And yet it sounds like that's not what's happening in this moment. One of the interesting things about the, one of the great things about most professional Aries is the clearly defined hierarchy, the clearly defined chain of command and the structure that's required to do the things that the military is asked to do. The problem with that, or the challenge is maybe a better way to put it would be. That's also the very same thing that makes it very hard for military members willing to speak up if a medical professional or someone that's in a higher, higher rank says, no, there's nothing wrong with you. It's very difficult for us to speak up for an advocate for ourselves because we're trained to shut the hell up and, and push forward. And that becomes difficult. So looking at someone saying, oh, 2008, that's a great year to move forward. Is it? We don't know. So that that's, I am curious to know Blair, you've been pretty quiet in all of this. What are your thoughts on how some of the, the stigmas might be eliminated? Cuz it sounds like one of the ways as made and Ryan both suggested would be to get the most current information.

Blair (00:22:22):

Yeah. well, just to add onto that as a physical therapy student everything is based on evidence based approach and we just finished doing some neuro rehab things. And let me tell you that things that we're learning are from 2008, they're much more recent and there's a lot of information that could be utilized, but as coming from like, like the non-commissioned member I think that it's just a matter of like looking out for your buddies. Like it's so simple, like go, like when you're out, like when you're doing maneuvers or you in training or wherever you are, your job is to look out for your buddy. Like at the end of the day, like you do what you're told from the top down, but then your buddy next to you has the guy you gotta look out for. And if they're not able to do their job, like they could yesterday, you need to start thinking of how many tomorrows come and they can't do that job the same way.

Blair (00:23:19):

Then I ask 'em what's going on. For me, I, I don't know if I'll call it lucky, but it was something I've had really bad like lash outs. Like I went from this super not super calm, but like I was pretty calm, collected. Like you see me today, but I went from something like this to look at me the wrong way. And I was not your friend. And I just started to major in our, in Charlie company in one VP. I did that. And instead of getting what you would anticipate me getting, he just took me in a room and he is like, dude, what happened? What's going on? And I was very lucky because that's probably one of a thousand Sergeant majors that would've approached it that way. So he effectively got me on this path to unfortunately being medically released, had to have been managed a bit differently.

Blair (00:24:07):

Would've been okay. But I think that's what it all boils down to is someone being like that Sergeant major being like, dude, this is, this is not who you are. Like, what's going on? What can we help you with? How can we move forward? Like together? Not just like when I, when I was medically released, like leading up to it, I was sent to JP U I didn't have a release. I didn't, I, I don't even have a certificate of service. <Laugh> like, I don't have anything. I just sent to JPS U and out the door. That's all it was for me. It's just a year and a half. And then it's like, it never even happened. But those things kind of, that's another conversation. <Laugh>,

Simon (00:24:44):

That's definitely something we'll wanna speak to shortly. I, I am curious though. And may I did see your hand up, I am curious with all of that. Were there any positive aspects that came out of the, the concussion protocols or recovery or anything like that? I'm just curious with all of you,

May (00:25:01):

For me, it's doing what I'm doing right now is getting involved with Brian. The other Ryan <laugh> from heads up and trying to advocate for through every single thing I have doing. Like, I don't necessarily need to appeal certain decisions, but sometimes I feel that, you know, I could have just gone and paid and I have paid for my vision therapy while I was serving. And I paid for my glasses, you know, and I fought all the way through and I'm fighting through right now. And the reason I'm doing all, this is just maybe just a little, maybe to let the leadership wake up and realize there is this, there is a serious problem when it comes to concussion, when it comes to the treatment of concussions, like we don't need to create yet another command, like the transition unit to for releasing members.

May (00:26:07):

And yet that exact same thing that got created has no clue about a brain injury or what the member needs, you know? Oh, you know, we had so many and bugman report. We have so many things that you know, is out there regarding what the members seriously ill and injured members need to get released. Like yes, return to work is absolutely good idea for certain individuals that have been properly treated and identified and are able and capable of working. But to ask me while I couldn't even think I couldn't even formulate my thoughts and I was fighting to even, you know, get a referral to a properly trained multidisciplinary team. I get asked by the medical based surgeon don't you wanna work? <Laugh> don't you wanna go back to work? I was like, honestly, let think about it. Well, let me see. Yeah. Why don't I wanna work and release and be working as a physician assistant, cuz it's my life dreams. Sorry, I just got passionate about this stuff.

Simon (00:27:30):

There is nothing to apologize for. The passion is part of the fire that's important and it's part of the way that things will change. People staying calm and collected more often than not will background stuff, but it's that fire that drives people that drives societal change and that matters. Bla, I see your hands up. And then Ryan, I'd like to know what your thought. So

May (00:27:47):

That was the positive

Simon (00:27:48):

<Laugh> after all this that's good

May (00:27:50):

And I can fight.

Simon (00:27:52):

That's good. That, that that's a win. I'm happy to hear there's something there. Bla, I do see your hand is up. So you're up next? And then Ryan, I'd like your thoughts on all of this.

Blair (00:27:59):

I'll say that like the positive for me is much like what may mention is the advocacy thing that I've kind of picked up along the way and just being able to share not only my experiences, but like other people's experiences and working and finding common themes and the like the whole experience I went through really lit a fire under my ass to do what I'm doing in school right now. So I know I'm one person I'm not gonna make that much of a dent, but as a physio who can actually treat concussion, like differentiate it from someone experiencing PTSD or someone who's just like, who might be experiencing a neck injury, even just being able to tell someone where to go, because that's oftentimes all anyone really needs is to get to the right person. In the military, sometimes you get sent right to a psychiatrist and messing with brain chemistry before you've tried other tech like other health professionals, like a physical therapist, occupational therapist, things like that. It's just, I think it it's important for me to be on this journey now to try to help in that realm. I think.

Simon (00:29:08):

And that's the thing, it's one you had mentioned earlier, what, you're just your one person, but it starts with one person and then it's two and four and eight and then societal change happens might not happen as quickly as we would like to see, or it needs to happen, but it has to start with people brave enough to step up and do their part to be able to do that. So it it's don't think that you're not making an influence. You, you truly are Ryan. I'd like to know what your thoughts on all of this are.

Ryan C (00:29:33):

Well, I think it's important that, you know, there's the education piece when it comes to concussion. I think a lot of people think that you to get a concussion, you have to be knocked out cold and that's not the case. The call them microtraumas call them. MTBS, there's different words. I don't, I'm not a doctor or a scientist, but those microtraumas add up. And when you see young football players in the states start hitting at nine years old and they commit suicide at 20 and you, and you look at their brains and they they're full of CTE. You know, that's saying something that's is repeated blows over time. And so if you haven't identified that if you don't understand that, then how you supposed to identify it in a soldier. You know, it's very possible that a soldier could jump out of a plane on Monday, have a hard landing, see stars, which is a brain injury, like call it what it is the next day, head out on the range and fire, what 10 or 15 rounds, the 84 bla can tell a story about that.

Ryan C (00:30:39):

Right? Get your brain shook with that. Maybe on, on the next day you're, you're out, you're on, you're on a, on a range and you're, you're bouncing around on the back of the lab, hitting your head off of the, off of the top, which we've all done that and then maybe you finish off the week with some PIL stick fighting. Well then Monday you come back and this person's acting like, well, what's wrong with this? What's you know, so we have to first identify that. And so there's that top down, bottom up. I'm I'm pretty sure. And I'm confident that if the right information is given to the soldiers if the right information, you know, they're, they're gonna implement it because like you said, there's, there's a, there's a fire team partner mentality. But if that information isn't coming from the it's, like I said, it's that top down bottoms up approach.

Ryan C (00:31:26):

That's not coming from the medical side then, then, so it needs, it needs to happen. It needs to happen from the top. It needs, it needs to the conversation needs to change. Like, you know Blair was saying the amount of medical professionals that I saw, psychiatrists, psychologists, medical doctors, not one of them identified, not weren't even thinking about head injury. So how do what's a positive that can come out of this? A positive that can come out of this is anybody that's presenting themselves with a mental health challenge. You should do a diagnostic and say, Hey, where, where are we here before you release someone? I was released ill and it destroyed my, it destroyed my family. It destroyed, I really sick. And if you are taking someone that's not recovering, that's not doing well, stop victim blaming, stop patient blaming, and maybe look yourself and say, okay, what, what are we missing here?

Ryan C (00:32:23):

Is there something we're missing? Is there a more global approach to this than just rubber necking on the fact that this person served and saw some traumatic things? You know, sometimes it's pretty straightforward, the head injury, other times it's hidden. And, and it seems to me, the conversation that we're having is, is whether it's pretty straightforward or whether it's hidden, it's not happening. You know, like I didn't present with head injury because I didn't think anything of it. And nobody asked me about it, but Blair and may had head injury and they said, look, I have head injury here. And, and still nobody was, was identifying with that. So I think you know, you, you, you put people in here, you've got me, who's working on, on one angle. You've got me working on another angle. You've got Blair working on another angle.

Ryan C (00:33:11):

You've got you what you're doing. And this is what it takes. It takes all veterans to start coming together and, and telling these stories so that we identify and, and we can make positive change because every veteran I talk about says, yeah, we wanna, we always wanna make it better for the, the soldiers that are following in our footsteps. Every veteran wants that because we're, we're still team members. We're still, it's why we joined. So I think, you know, another reason why these conversations are, are very important. So identifying it and I, I guess I could follow up with saying that, I mean, the thing that's benefited me the most is trying to live a healthy lifestyle, you know, trying to focus on, on sleep, good nutrition, exercise, and cognitive reserve. Like I, I play music to try to, to try to force me to, to learn new things, learn new songs, learn new chord structures for somebody it could be writing or reading or doing Sudokus. I mean, there's, there's, there's, there's a lot of things, but the positive thing that's come out of this is, is are those four pillars for me that I, that I try to try to make sure that I work on on a weekly basis.

Simon (00:34:18):

Thank you very much for that.

Ontario Brain Institute (00:34:20):

The Ontario brain Institute is a provincially funded non-for-profit organization that accelerates discovery and innovation benefiting both patients and the economy. Their vision is to make Ontario a world leader in brain research, commercialization, and care, and they aim to achieve this through a collaborative team science approach between researchers, clinicians, patients, and advocates, to help deliver innovative products and services that improve the lives of those living with brain disorders. You can learn more about their work by visiting www.braininstitute.ca

Simon (00:35:02):

I, I am curious. So we, that we touched a little bit on the idea of education and how can we educate others? What does the system do? Does it educate others? Does anyone have any thoughts on that at all? Like, does it do that? What do you, what do you wanna say? Who wants to go?

May (00:35:15):

Okay, so having done such intensive research regarding education back in 2009, I believe the health services introduced the I believe the acronym is to return the road to metal, to mental readiness. And it was adopted from actually the us and at the time when the us, during that period of time. So we adopted that for the PTSD, mental health, all that stuff. And that's where the Canadian continued to focus on. Unfortunately, we did not take the whole picture because as part of the us in 2008 they started in addition to the mental health issues, they began population screening for, and keeping statistics of, you know, brain injury, how many suicidal, how many people are being. And the, the research is vast and it's out there and they even have, you know, just looking at it. Now they have a guides to clinicians, guides to eye care providers, all related specifically to all the different signs and symptoms, what, and who you need to refer the person to a whole bunch of questionnaires was I'm sure Blair probably might go through if he got that section regarding brain injury.

May (00:36:51):

So the education is there, you know, the mace, I know we love acronyms in the military, which I don't remember what it is right now, but they have the guides for the families. They have the guides for leaders, what to follow and how to screen in the battlefield for concussions, what questions to ask. And they have exactly the same thing for, you know, when the person returns, they kept statistics. Okay, well, we saw this person and now, you know, they're, they're having all these symptoms and they're all interrelated, but you know, it's not quite PTSD because PTSD don't necessarily have the photophobia, which is like, it it's so, you know, bright outside, cuz you can't stand. I don't go out to the malls. Not because I'm trying to avoid it per se because you know, PTSD symptoms, no, because it's loud. You know, and something as simple as having musician earplugs and I had to fight to even get those paid for, because under the spectrum of care for the health services, it's considered you know, it's not improve because they're called musician earplugs.

May (00:37:59):

Meanwhile, those, one of the things that help me cope. So education is there is just leadership and policy of health services that need to actually it comes from the CVS. I would say it's the policy and directions from the C that need to direct health services, which can filter downs into, you know, the rest of the medical system. And then you know, the, the soldier up on the front precedents, all you have to do is look at what happened to PTSD. And when did we finally start getting people looked after for PTSD and getting the stuff diagnosed.

Simon (00:38:41):

Thank you very much for that. It, that the trick with all of that is there's so many things and you're right. It has to start at the top. I think part of it too, is that message has to actually get to the top. And that's a very big challenge.

Blair (00:38:51):

Exactly.

Simon (00:38:51):

Blair, I see that your hand is up.

Blair (00:38:53):

Yeah. And I agree with what May was saying. And I also have, I guess I had the bottom perspective, but when I was 16, when I was, until I got medically released, I didn't know anything that, wasn't what the person in charge me was saying. And if what they were saying was wrong, I didn't know it. So for me, the fact, one thing that I think that I would love to see implemented is in sports, which let's face it. If you're most combat arms you're an athlete in order, in order to be there. Like, you're not like you're most people at least, but like you're doing PT every day. You're doing very hard training. You're cognitively you need to be sharp. These are all assets that athletes have. And all athletes do. Prehab. Prehab is doing work on yourself so you don't get injured.

Blair (00:39:54):

And I think that when it comes to concussion and I'm biased again on the physical therapy front, but it, our job as physical therapist is to educate you and help you move forward with concussion. So while I'm not a physical therapist yet I will be, but I think there's a big key educational role that a physical therapist can play with concussion education alongside of certain sessions in a week for PT. Cause PTs being led by a guy who could be like a rockstar athlete or they could just be there because they're delegated that day and they don't have any PT experience like, you know, and that's just how it is. But if you have a physical therapist come in, even once every two weeks and drive you through some prehab for your knees back ankles, everything, and then just start talking about concussions, then your privates, your corporals, like I was know the master corporal that could have been run in PT. He's gonna know more about it. And the officers are probably gonna be more likely to come do PT with the troops. If there's a physical therapist there that understands it so they can learn and like hone their skills. So I think that's something simple. And I know that for myself, the people I know you probably wouldn't even have to pay the physical therapist to be there. They would probably just love to be there and just provide that education to make that little bit of a difference. Thank

Simon (00:41:22):

You very much for that. And, and it's interesting to bring people in. I remember my time in the infantry, the odd, very rare time we, we saw someone that was outside of the company lines. They were always excited to get involved and see what we did. And I remember one time one of the medics came out with us and they were like, what, what are you guys doing? And it happened to be all guys in, in the group. This is keep in mind, this is their still their early nineties. And what are you guys doing? And we were running through, through swamp on our sneakers. And I happened to be that I stepped in between two rocks and my whole body, except my foot move 90 degrees to the right and snap my ankle. The medic's like, holy crap. That's not good.

Simon (00:41:56):

Make sure you get that looked at. I go to the doctor and the doctor's like, well, corporal Cardinal, the problem is clearly not that you stepped in between two rocks and broke your ankle. The problem is that your obese and your body could not, your ankle could not sustain your weight. I weighed 197 pounds and I'm five 11. So obese, probably not. And while not concussion related I think that's part of the, the system there is that it's it's, it was always tended to be easier to avoid what the actual problems might have been to not look at whatever the problem might have been. And I don't, I'm curious to know with that, is that still, there are those types of blind blinders on the medical system to avoid actually having to deal with what it meant to means to be with those concussions. Ryan, I'd like your thought on this first.

Ryan C (00:42:43):

I don't know. I'm not, I'm not in the medical system. I can't speak for them right now. But through our support line with veterans that are transitioning out, that it's not, it's still not being addressed. The over, over prescription of pharmaceutical medications is rampant it's it's you know, it just seems like if things don't work to just keep adding medications. And, and so the last gentleman I spoke to, he got in touch with us because he, he was a sniper and, and was asking about he had brought the information forward about head injury. And I don't know, I don't know what position he's in. I don't know the story. I'm just saying, he said it wasn't really, wasn't really accepted. So, I mean, I, I think we're back to that and it's it's about like may said, I mean, it, it, it is a top down organization, right? It has to certainly there's a bottoms up approach to it, but it has to come from the top. And I'm, I'm confident that it, that it will, it's, it's, unfortunately it's unfortunate that it's taken this long. But I'm confident within this year, there's gonna be, there's gonna be positive changes made

May (00:43:55):

If I can add to it. It has to be top down because the entire military system is based on what directions including the healthcare that is provided to soldiers. And what's covered under the spectrum of care or what health services can and cannot cover. It's all dictated by the mission and by the policies that it's directed down from the CVS to the surgeon, general

Ryan C (00:44:27):

A hundred percent like, and right now we all know that when you're in the military, it's, it's busy when you're not busy, it's just always something to do. And if it's not being directed, it's not gonna happen. And right now in the canadian forces, there's a man, there's a crisis. Like there's a crisis of man. Like there's a lot of people getting out. A lot of people are not joining that's a different conversation all itself, but and so you do need an outside resource to come in and manage that and to, and to help and to, and to augment, you know, the, the the system, because right now, like, like we're saying, it's, it's be because it's so busy and there's, and there's a crisis in, in, in in Manning to throw like, sometimes it's like, you know, we always talk about the bright idea fairies, right?

Ryan C (00:45:22):

<Laugh> now this is a little more serious than a bright idea fairy, but it's that kind of mentality. It's a sense that yes, it does have to come from, from from national defense, from the headquarters. And when that happens, I think you'll see, you'll see rapid change because I echo what Blair's saying. The people on the front line of this are physiotherapists. They're the ones that are going to be able to, they're the ones that see patients the most often, there's actually a program at the U M U H C now that they're, that, that McGill's putting together where, when people come in and, and, and identify with some form of head injury, they go to a, they go to a physiotherapist first because a doctor is, is, is not gonna do all those, those assessments now that a doctor's involved in that, you know, so that's the kind of stuff that's happening in the civilian world, where, where I'd like to see it happen in, in the military where you identify with it, what what's seeing a doctor gonna do, the doctor's gonna gonna refer you anyways.

Ryan C (00:46:19):

If that's the system, that's the system, but then the doctor would at least know to refer you to a PT. Then, then, then I think that's what clears up that, that, you know, that log jam or that system that's to me, what has to happen cuz that's, that's the and or, I mean, there there's other I mean, you would, you would know better than I would bla, but what all the, the neuropsych assessments, you know, whatever needs to get done. But again, we're, we're back to this. If it's not part of the conversation, then, you know, even if you're a soldier coming forward and saying, Hey, I, I, I think there's some issues with head injury, but if the system's not willing to accept it, or then you're, you're falling on, on deaf ears, right? So

Simon (00:47:02):

One of the challenges the forces is going through right now in relation to how busy everything is, the they're allowed to have 71,000 people. And right now they're hovering about 6,750 short of that. And that's roughly 10%, a little bit less, that's a generational shortage and talking about the busyness and how things get put to the side. That's not going to go away anytime soon. So as may had mentioned, it does have to come from the top, these types of education components to help people understand what concussions are and not, it doesn't mean that it's a huge back to the head that has to stop at the top, start at the top rather, and make its way down. That's tough, that's tough. And I'm not making excuses for anyone or anything. I'm just simply reiterating what we were saying here. I am curious though, as we were talking about these different types of things, when you folks had experienced your concussion or your brain traumas, because of the way the system is designed and how it, we don't talk about these types of things, because that could be perceived as a weakness or whatnot.

Simon (00:47:54):

When, when those, when you were experiencing these things, was there some type of doubt that went through your minds that am I actually heard? Is this me? Is it, is, am I, am I, as we like to say a lot of times, are we just being weak? What's what's happening there. Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

Ryan C (00:48:06):

Well, well, just quickly, I never identified with it. I, I remember getting almost knocked out during istic fighting and the Sergeant major that was running, it said, okay, well, you're done, you know, you're done for the day. But, but that was it like, and I didn't think anything to come forward with it at all. And I didn't think anything until I was released from the military to even mention any much of, of my head injury, again, pretty hard to self-identify when you have a brain injury. Right. So that's my 2 cents on it

Simon (00:48:36):

Comes back to that education component. We need to understand what it means to have a concussion and the signs of it otherwise, how can we know what we've got going wrong? Larry, I see your hand is up.

Blair (00:48:45):

Yeah. that's a, that's a really good question for kind of my journey. I guess when I was still in, until I was medically released. And even afterwards, I spent a lot of time thinking and I was making things up. To be honest with you, I was, I had a headache and I'd be like, no, I don't have a headache. I and just Dodge it, drink more water. That's what I was told for. I'd drink more water. So I was drinking more water and then I'd show up to work. And I, like, I remember, I think the most distinct thing to me was I was support staff on a LTS course, engaged town. After my injuries, I was trying to lead like a wreck. And I had every single bearing done as a back bearing on my map. So I was the opposite of the joke.

Blair (00:49:26):

And I was leading the LTS backwards through gauge town and we got back and I was like, that was completely backwards. And that's the only time I realized that I was right. That things were going wrong for me because every day you'd show up to work. And you'd like, most of the times back then, like you might be hungover. So you might not even feel the best anyways on PT. But I mean, I never believed that it was this severe thing. And and if I'm being honest, I still have times where I'm like, was it that bad? But when I look back and I see cuz I've, I have constant communication with the physiotherapist who saw me in October of 2018 onwards. And it's just like, no, like you're a completely different person. Like just seeing who you are right now. She's like, have you ever doubted anything?

Blair (00:50:21):

She's like, you can come back and read your files. Like there's something objective, but when you're that private or corporal, you are weak in your head, you are. And you're nothing other than that. If you were not good enough for yourself, you're telling yourself you're not good enough for your Jack. And then you're just constantly ringing through your head that you're useless, even though you're career trajectory from the moment you went reg for was going this way and you probably could have kept going that way. And you were never that way. It's something that comes from people, just not believing you because they have no clue what a concussion is like mood swings, blight, sensitivity, and sensitivity to noise, the irritability, the fact that like things are making you dizzy when they're passing by like all these small signs are things that nobody really understands. And to be honest with you, it does get chopped up as someone being hung over quite often. But that's not what it is if it's a full year in a row and yeah, long story short, definitely agree with the, I felt weak very often, but now not so much cuz I know that it was all real.

May (00:51:32):

I do wanna give a heads up for physiotherapist, actually the one that not justified, but helped me initially before I even recognized because I knew my symptom did not make any sense. It was a physiotherapist and it was a military physiotherapist that had extra training in concussion. And that's the only way I knew. And I began to be able to start seeking all the different therapies and help that I needed. But even then it was struggle to even get approval for these things. You know, to see an OT because health services doesn't cover therapy they only cover treatment. So that's what I'm talking about is it has to be a policy change and like all our, your stories is without the policy change without changing the medical education system down to the private and the corporal met tech, a lot of our stories are gonna continue on happening.

May (00:52:37):

I can tell you from being my experience being, you know an infantry met tech or you know, a field and met tech. Yes, I recorded everything. I remember having with three RCR covering, you know, a jump exercise. And I had this one soldier that you know, he came down and hit hard and my concern was his C did he lose consciousness because that was the, that still a common thing that you get asked, did you lose consciousness? Well, because if you didn't lose consciousness, then there's no way you could have had, you know, brain injuries. So if you had, if the met tech themselves are not recording or don't know what kinda information they need to be recording or what kind of questions they need to asking, because that's not part of the policy to educate the Medex, then many soldiers will be missed.

May (00:53:34):

Many soldiers will be, you know, when it comes time down and you're being released, you know, for something or another, but you still can manage your finances. Nothing is making sense. And all of a sudden you're thrown up after the two years of the rehab or return to work are done once you're with veterans affairs and now you are homeless and no one understand how can you be homeless, no way. There's tons of resources. There is veterans affairs. And I can tell you I'm I would consider myself the best case scenario for ensuring, regardless of the stigma that I didn't care what anybody said the few times, you know, I was on in Afghanistan <laugh> and I fell and I came down and both my wrists, you know, went back. And I just, I remember, you know, here I am in medic and you know, going to see the Mir, not because of anything, but I knew that if it's not recorded, it did not happen.

May (00:54:37):

And then with veteran's affairs, it's not doesn't exist. So now good luck trying to prove it. Right. And then eventually with that story is yes, I end up having a tear, which wasn't, you know, we didn't find out about it till like 15 years later, but how many soldiers, when they have the declaration, do they even actually write or they know what would have caused it? Well, I had, you know at first tour in Afghanistan, I was you know, crew crew commander in a bison, you know, we end up rearing a lab because it was a sudden stop. The lights were not on. And you know, by the time my driver saw it, well, I didn't, you know? Yeah, I didn't, I didn't complain, but that was a whiplash, right. Bla <laugh> that could have easily had caused, you know, I still have neck pain for the longest time, but I never really associated because as you know, part of the brain injury I don't remember a lot of stuff.

May (00:55:40):

So yes, it has to be policy top down and it has to be a change. It has to be recorded because at the end of the day, you know, when you go to VA and you put your claims through, oh, we're sorry, it's not, we can't contribute it to your military service cuz it's not written anywhere. And this stigma do I really wanna go and complain because now I'm worried about being released medically a concussion should not be the end of your career. There is a treatment, right? Like in 2010 when I was hit by a truck on the side of the road and I was a, like a pedestrian struck, I knew that I needed to have a CF 98, but anybody else is like, well, I was on the course. So you wouldn't think, cause other, you were driving your car, right. All the little stuff.

Simon (00:56:30):

Well, it, it comes back to that education component. We talked about earlier, letting the medics know, and even, even if they're not sure to fill it out and for the listeners, the CF 98 is the injury report form that we've, we are, the forces members are required to fill out to diet to ensure that all, anything that's happened to us is actually documented the trick with the CF 98. And I think everyone would agree with me on this is the first thing people think of when you think about that is, Ugh, that's a giant pain in the ass, cuz it's about 20 feet long. And secondly, as soon as it's documented, you're now openly saying there's something wrong with you. And that comes back to the point about being viewed as weak. So it's an interesting conundrum that we fall into. We get told to fill out the CF 98 all the time, but then to actually take the time to do it. There's a whole bunch of emotional and societal things that come that are attached to that. So it's an interesting conundrum. We, we fall into Blair. I see your hand is up. And then Ryan, I'd like your thoughts in all of this.

Blair (00:57:20):

Yeah. I thought of a really good example of this stigma from when may was second. So I had a Sergeant I'll call him Sergeant G and he's gonna know who he is if he ends up listening to this, but he made me my remedial homework one night after my concussions was to make a pros and cons list of becoming medically released due to my injuries. So he made me go home and he made me sit down and write a pros list of what's good about getting medically released as if I was choosing this fate and put down the cons. And later that night I had a physio appointment. I had to go see the psychiatrist who was filling. And I didn't do that cuz I thought it was poor leadership. He, so cuz this guy thought I was choosing to be medically released, like I didn't anyways.

Blair (00:58:10):

So I thought that's a pretty good example of how a person can make such a big difference by just stopping to have a conversation and being like what's actually going on instead of give me your pros and cons of being medically released, because like it's just, I'll never forget that. And the few things fire me up about the army and yeah, he's one person that still gets me going because of that, because that's just, it's part of the stigma that you're trying to break. And like, all I can think about is if that was some other new private who's 19 years old, he could be struggling and he'll never go get the help. I was lucky. I had a wife who believed me in, so what I was going through, but that 1920 year old, he doesn't have that. He's gonna, I'm pretending I'm faking it and he's gonna go, you know, that's my example that I think just someone needs to make sure that Sergeant G it gets educated.

Simon (00:59:10):

That's that's it, it's part of that stigma and it's attached to that and it's still there. It's not gone. Ryan, what are your thoughts?

Ryan C (00:59:19):

No, I mean, I, I, I certainly that you know, this, this, for example, the, the Sergeant G that Blair's talking about, I mean, it's learned behavior. He, he learned it from someone else and then someone teaches that Sergeant that this type of behavior is weakness. And instead of leading with empathy, he's leading with what he knows. And so again, it, it comes to that, that shift in policy. And I mean, I understand what it's like to be in the infantry. You gotta be tough. You gotta be physically tough. You gotta be mentally tough. There are people in an infantry battalion that are slackers that, you know, try to get outta things they try to, but you have to identify the ones that aren't and the ones that aren't, that are coming forward and presenting with some type of injury. You know, you have to deal with that on a, on a case by case basis and that, and just not broad stroke it.

Ryan C (01:00:21):

And I think that's, you know, like, like that example that the Blair was talking about, but what's also very important. Is education going through veteran affairs like may was saying, because again, and one of my friends said this who just got her PhD actually in, in concussion. So she's now a doctor. And she said, you, based on the information that I was giving her on the military, she, you have to assume that everyone that's been in the military, you have to assume they've had head injury. So when they're leaving, you need to diagnose that or go through some type of diagnostic because may is right. I mean, if it's not in your file and mine, none of it's in none of my head injuries in my file, in the military. And then they could easily say, wow, it was probably something that happened before, but you can't do that.

Ryan C (01:01:08):

You know, if you, if you accepted me into the military, then you accepted me as is. So I, I think that that's important because veterans affairs won't, I won't identify with it, but if it's not being identified, however it is being identified as an, in, as an issue in mental health, then veterans affairs should be going back through their files and anybody that has long-term OSI or things that aren't working should say, okay, well, our, our has, has a neuropsych been done? Have they been evaluated by a PT? Like what, what are the next steps here? Because doctor psychiatry, psychology, which has been very good for me in some, in some levels, but in other levels it has not been at all. So that's obviously, and I think there are some people in the field that understand that, and there needs to be more of a holistic approach and not a treatment by silos, right?

Ryan C (01:02:03):

You go see this person and none, none of those people really seem to talk to each other. So I, I, I think all of that is, is coming down to the same points, right? There needs to be education. There needs to be a more holistic approach so that this can be dealt with and, and without, without and leading with empathy, like having empathy for that person that's coming in. And, and, and you have to assume that that patient, and may, can school me on this, but they're an adult. You have to assume they're telling the truth.

Simon (01:02:32):

Yeah. It's, it's a challenge. And like you said, there are people that are trying to get outta stuff and trying to play those games and finding that balance between the two is difficult and really that all comes back to more education in how the leaders are paying attention to what's going on in the environment around them. So, folks, this has been fantastic. I may, I, I saw you put your hand up really quickly. So this is what I'd like to offer. I'd like to offer that we start rolling into the the final thoughts from each of you. So may, I'll start with you. You can tell, tell us where your thought and then we'll do Blair and then Ryan. Okay.

May (01:03:02):

Okay. So you have to get back to me. I've come back to me because I'm at that past the point where my brain needs is not functioning as well anymore. So just gonna take me a couple more minutes, so maybe you can ask someone else, sorry.

Simon (01:03:15):

Absolutely, absolutely. Blair. Then I'm gonna, I'm gonna come at you. How's that sound?

Blair (01:03:19):

I think for final thoughts one of the most important things you had to remember at the end of the day is like, there was only one of those up there. Like at the end of the day, that's at the bottom line, you have one brain, like neurons had the capacity to do some pretty amazing things after you've experienced injuries, but at the end you only have one whole brain, one whole spinal cord. And if you're not looking out for yourself, no matter how tough it is, if you think there's something going on, don't, don't let anyone stop you from getting the help you need. Cuz while the help I need was down the road and I couldn't get it when I was in the military due to the red tape, the minute I got out, I found someone who helped me and I'm here now.

Blair (01:04:01):

And I'm doing things now that I would never have done had I not experienced the concussions and had injury that I did have. So just keep on the road and make sure that it's you, that you're looking out for because as nice as it is to wear that Canada flag you as the private or a corporal, like you gotta look out for you cause no one else is going to, and I can't say that enough times and this like, you gotta be your own best advocate. And if you aren't, you're gonna have some lifelong situations you're gonna have to deal with in the future. So it might not look pretty and it's gonna be hard and people might not believe you, but you can come out on the other end of it, a better person and hopefully make the positive change that you didn't have to, that you had to deal with negatively in that time.

Simon (01:04:46):

Great. Thank you very much for that. I really appreciate that, Ryan, your turn.

Ryan C (01:04:50):

Well, I I'll I'll, I'll just say that project enlists Canada, so project enlist do CA has a support line that if any veterans out there is struggling with their mental health or they think that, and it, and it's through head injury, it's an email, it's basically a patient navigation service, so they can contact the support line. And normally if they're a veteran they'll, they'll ask if they wanna speak to another veteran and they'll speak to me or another ambassador and we'll, we'll help them along the way. So we we've started that and that's been quite successful helping veterans navigate the, the, the mental health slash head injury spectrum. And I would ask any veteran, if they are interested in supporting project enlist to pledge their brain again, it's all project enlist do CA we do have a Facebook page project enlist Canada.

Ryan C (01:05:42):

But by pledging your brain, you support the research that we're looking to try to get supported through CAMH. That doesn't mean that your brain's gonna be autopsy because there's a lot of hoops that have to be jumped through in order for that to happen. But basically it means whether you're a civilian or you're a veteran, anyone who pledges, it shows that you're in support of the project. And there's plenty of information on the page, on what the project is that we're doing. But a lot of the stuff we're doing is grassroots as well. Like, like the stuff that Blair's talking about operation brain health is focused on the four pillars that we talked about earlier in, in the program. And if you're a, a, a veteran and, and you're, you're interested in advocating there, there's lots of organizations out there that could use your, use, your help, including the B I a and, and, and project enlist. I mean we're, we're not fighting over everything. We're, we're fighting towards, you know, we're gonna try to do this together and, and, and we're all fighting for the same thing as we want. Not only do we, do we want better treatment standards in the civilian world? We're, we're demanding better treatment standards with with veterans and current serving military.

Simon (01:06:47):

Thanks very much for that. I really appreciate that. And I'd like to point out, I have pledged my brain. That's all taken care of. So

Ryan C (01:06:51):

We're yeah, we, we denied your request, but it's fine. Anyways. Thank you.

Simon (01:06:55):

Yeah. Yeah. It's huge head that I've got. It's fine. There's, it's just a lot of stuff floating around there. It's all good. May it's your turn?

May (01:07:01):

What I'd like on is a positive note. The Canadian forces were leaders in bringing attention to PTSD in mental health and OSI. The potential is still there. I think we need to be the CF and, and veterans affairs. Canada need to pursue that and be leaders when it comes to concussion, because many of the issues we're discussing, it's not just unique to the military. You know, on the civilian side, you show up to the ER and you have a concussion or just go home and they do a little quick screen. And then after that, you don't know what's going on. So it's not just, but let's be leaders again for the CF and and educate not only the civilians and then have these partnership. And then finally to those veterans that are struggling or going through the transition process, or they are struggling after getting out of the military, never, ever give up hope. Things will get better. You may not be the same person you used to be when you are in the military, but there was always a reason for something. And, and just, maybe you're gonna be a better version of the person. You're meant to be,

Simon (01:08:20):

I'd like to thank our guests for being so brave by sharing their personal and professional experiences, along with their expertise about concussions and traumatic brain injuries inside the veteran community. My favorite leadership coach, Margaret Wheatley once said very great change starts with very small conversations, held among people who care. My friends, this episode has been one small conversation held among people who care. And our next episode will be another small conversation with the discussion involving the impacts of brain injury on family members facilitated by Karen Guy. Thanks for tuning in and remember leadership without passion limits the depth of your vision.

HeadsupCAN (01:08:58):

Thank you so much for listening to this episode on concussion and traumatic brain injury within the veteran community. If you found the content in this conversation valuable, we would love to hear it. Please let us know by providing a rating and review of the podcast below.