31: The Art of Clothing with Pamela Mayer of Mayer Wasner

I’m so excited to share this interview with Pamela Mayer, a patternmaker, clothing designer, and owner of the local boutique Mayer Wasner which specializes in modern day heirlooms with a focus on clothing made responsibly and ethically.

We talk about the joys of making clothes, developing personal style, the evolution of our personal philosophies throughout life and how that is reflected in our businesses, and sustainability choices that happen not only as a shop owner, but also how to continue making those sustainable choices after we bring clothing home.

Mentioned in this Episode:
Mayer Wasner Website + Instagram
Soft Work Intuitive Garment Design Course (goes on sale later this month!)
Sign up for my newsletter (scroll to bottom of page)

Brands / Companies Mentioned:
Gary Graham
J. Morgan Puett (more current info here)
Wolhide
Ace and Jig
Indi and Ash
Sally Fox Colorgrown Cotton
Lauren Manoogian
Cal Patch 

Transcript

Introduction

Hello, Pam. Welcome to Stitchwish Radio.  Thank you, Christy JJ. I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.  Yeah. So first off, let's start at the beginning. 

Pam's Early Beginnings in Sewing

How did you learn to make clothes?  Oh my goodness. There's a lot of lore about me making clothing. Uh, my sister is 11 years older than me and always sewed.

So I would break into her room and like play with her sewing machine.  And then my mother. sewed all of her maternity clothes while she was pregnant with me. And so there's that. And then my great grandmother, Nanny was like an excellent,  amazing, talented seamstress.

So by the time I was 11, I was super, super interested in making clothes. And, they offered it in HOMAC. And of course I was like, yes, please sign me up. Sign me up. And I started there and then I realized there was a whole, like, Vogue pattern situation and all of the designers that I was in love with, Claude Montana, Issey Miyake,

and I was like, Oh, wait, I can make all these clothes.  So I spent most of my, like, middle school and high school, staying home and making clothes like, Hey, my best friend had a sewing machine. Come over, bring your sewing machine. My parents were gone all the time. We did not go to parties. We did not do anything really bad.

We hung out, make cookie dough and baked and we sewed clothes all weekend. I would come to school with a new outfit my sewing teacher in high school was a master seamstress and she took me under her wing  and I was like, I love this. And she was like, you're really good at it. So that's.

Let's help you. Let's do this. Let's, I would spend every free moment, my lunch periods my whole summers, everything. I would be like, I got to sew. I got to sew. So I worked at JoAnn Fabrics as soon as I turned 16. And I have a plethora of patterns from that moment in my life.  And I would, spend every dollar on just buying clothes and fabrics and this and that.

So that's kind of how it started. Amazing. Do you still have any clothes from that period of time?  I do. I do. I have the first Issey Miyake outfit I made,  it's  a very basic  yoke pant and  this cool asymmetrical jacket. And I had found these buttons, these like vintage antique breast buttons. 

And for some reason it survived, which I love that it survived. And, I wore that outfit to death. I was like, this is the coolest thing I ever made. Looking at it now. I'm like, Oh, it's like, it's like beige on beige.  Exactly my best like color choices, but  I do I have a couple of things that I made that I  have never let go over I gave to my mom or my sister and they've still have it so every once in a while I  look at them and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe this. 

And my,  sewing teacher in high school is the one who was like, Hey, you can go to college for this like you can. You can study this. And I was like, what?  Cause my parents didn't go to college. And they're like, yeah, no, you can't go to school for sewing, but it worked out.

Eventually they acquiesced and we figured it out, but  Nice. 

Venturing into Fashion in New York City

And just a side note, um, where did you tell the people where you grew up? So, and I'm like, how did you find Issey Miyake there? But yeah.  I grew up in Bay Village, Ohio, which was like one of the safest cities in the entire country, I was born in 1972. So this was , we're talking like 86, 87, 88. I graduated in 91. So  we had a Joanne fabrics. And at that point,  there were so many interesting designers who had  deals with Vogue patterns.

And I got to work at Joanne fabrics and, you know, it wasn't exactly like a bastion of fashion. There was the East side of Cleveland. Which was, which was a much more  fashionable place. And that's where we would go shopping and go, like, they had cool fabric places and stuff like that. Cause we, you know, we had Joan fabrics.

We didn't have a lot of access to other things. It's not like you could mail order or get on the internet, which I mean, I don't even know how it would survive that today. Like the amount of fabrics I could buy and the amount of things I could make. So, , yeah, I grew up in Ohio and. I just, I fell in love.

I had the bug. I fell in love with it. I didn't know what else to do with my time.  I was good at it and I, I just, I loved it. I loved learning about it. I was fearless about it. It taught me so much about how to pattern make when I went to college , which was kind of fun. But, um, sewing also gave me an idea of how things fit and how things should fit or how to  someone properly.

And it was fun. I made clothes for my sisters. I made clothes for my mom. I made clothes for people all the time because I was like, Hey, I can just take that in. I can make that work. I can. Oh, you need a dress for something. Great. And, um, I made all my ill fated  dresses for the dances I went to with my best friends.

I don't think I went to one with a guy at all. Um, which was hilarious. So there are some, there are some rough dresses. I'm glad they didn't survive because  There's some things. That was a period of time that was a little harsh on the dress world. I know my sister growing up, my sister made clothes also.

And she's about, I think she was born like a year after you and wow, the taffeta was real. Exactly. Oh my gosh. I did not meet a taffeta. I did not want to sew some really pretty like chestnut Browns and some Ivy greens. And Oh yeah. I had some moments with some taffeta. Oh, I am happy. They did not survive. 

It's, it makes for a really beautifully sculptural design, but wow.  The fit is awful. I mean, add that to some like really bad  rayon polyester velvet with it and , Oh,  it's not looking good on anybody.  That's too good. We'll have to, I'll have to compare my sister's prom dresses to yours because I'm like, wait, I figured, I think she had this exact same ivory green taffeta.

I wonder what pattern she used. Oh yeah. I mean, I don't even remember. I remember hand sewing it  the night before prom because I was  finishing the hem by hand because My sewing teacher was old school. She was like, you did hems by hand.  You learned how to do a blind stitch. You learn how to do this.

I mean, I think I've forgotten more than she taught me at this point. There's so many things I've forgotten that she was like, nope, nope. You have to do this. You have to do that. So  it was awesome. I loved it. That's so fun. , 

Establishing a Boutique and Sustainable Fashion

so you went to College in New York City, and then you started working for different designers in New York City.

Can you tell us about some of the designers you used to work for? How you got into that? Or how, how you Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah. I went to Pratt. , I was at Pratt from 1991 to 1995. And I mean, I was like, this is what you get to do for  school.  Once they like made me take an, a basic English and a basic science.

And then I was done and I was like, wait, I fill my days of pattern making and draping and sewing. Oh my God. That's so exciting. It's so fun. I have a tailoring class, so we could not graduate from Pratt without doing internships. So I did internships I cannot remember the people I did internships for at this point.

They were like more couture than anyone else. And of course I was late. I was, did not show up. I was a student. I did some like awful, well, it's fine. But then I ended up, Sort of working my way into J Morgan Pewitt,  she was back in Soho at that point on Mercer street and she had the most beautiful store. 

It had a carousel in there. It had a boat at one point. And, I had read an article about her in Harper's bazaar, I believe. And she was selling at Barney's and. I was like, this is the person I want to work for. But the problem was, is that she only hired people from the fashion Institute of technology, uh, the Chicago Institute of technology.

Cause she was, that was her alumni. So she was very specific about that. And, um, or the art, the art Institute of Chicago, one of those things, one of those things. And so I was like, I can work for free. I'll be an intern, blah, blah, blah. I ended up meeting with her pattern maker. Who's Gary Graham. And we fell in love as friends,  he was like, Oh yeah, we're good.

We're good. I was like, classic rock me, classic rock. And we, , we hit it off and she hired me. And that was like my big main job  before I ended up going on my own. In hindsight, I probably should have worked for someone else before deciding I should just jump right into my own collection.

It would have learned a lot.  I would have learned a lot more than I've like did on my own. But,, so I, that was like my main gig was working with Gary, working with Morgan and being an assistant pattern maker.  I was a sourcer and then I ended up as a production manager, really young, like 23 years old, like way too young to be a production manager. 

I think I was 23, 24. And that was the hardest job of my life. Like, I think I worked probably 70 to 90 hours a week in like some really  awful circumstances at moments.  The fashion industry was not quite  as regulated, I think, as it probably is now. And I hate to say that, like, I walked into factories that were absolutely stunning and beautiful and The people, they were happy.

And I walked into factories that were probably very like the complete opposite of that.  They had children not working, but children there that were sleeping children there that were hanging out parents who were clearly under extreme duress. And , it took a toll. It took a toll. I was like, I don't love this.

I don't love this industry. I don't love what I'm doing here.  I didn't like walking in and being like, well, I can only pay you this amount of money for a garment where I was like,  it just, it didn't, my moral sensibility was broken. I just was like, I can't do this. And so  I eventually left. I mean, it took a minute to , figure out what I was going to do.

And I left. And shortly after that, I mean, I freelanced in the city for a year. At different places and made curtains and made people clothes and kind of did whatever I could to get by. And then I eventually  moved upstate and was like, I want to come here and I want to make a sustainable collection.

And I want to be able to do this in a, like in a happier, kinder, gentler way.  So that really the working as a production person and seeing, and by no means was it the worst, I'm sure there were much worse places. But for me. Morally, psychically, emotionally, physically, I was like, I can't do this. It's not.  It doesn't feel good.

I feel, I feel bad about myself.  And that's a really young age to see like such a dark side of the fashion industry. And knowing that that's not as dark as it gets is even more like,  yeah, I was like, this isn't as bad. I mean,  This can't, there's worse things out there.

There's got to be. And, and also the garment industry at that point was  dirty. It was full of runaways. It was full of drugs and prostitutes. Like it was a hard place to work. And I would work all weekend and you would see things and I was like, there's got to be a better way. There's got to be a kinder way. So that's how I eventually got to the country.  And I'm so happy you did because that's where I met you. And side note, when I first walked into Pam's store, and she mentioned that she worked with Gary Graham, I was like, I idolized Gary Graham. 

He was one of the first like independent designers that I learned about when I was in college, and I was just like, Oh, it was like meeting a celebrity.  You worked with Gary Graham. Oh my god. I did. I did. He is a genius. And masterful and kind and a good soul and everything you would ever think  the most beautiful, gentle, lovely human being and also just brilliant in every way.

I found some of his garments and I was working in a store when I was in college and the, the labels, the interior labels had handwritten the size and the fiber content and I was just like, Oh my God, somebody's hands touched this passionately supported that, you know, and I think I spent like probably like, you know, three weeks of wages at that store. 

on the Gary Graham dress because I was just like, this is  a piece of history and a piece of artwork that just, , I feel like that's definitely worked into, your style of creating. So, , do you see a difference in the methods you were taught in, I mean, obviously you see a difference between the methods that you were taught in high school, but then like when you were taught in school versus what you learned from Garrett or how Morgan worked, like, how did you see those differing and what did you, what do you feel like you took on for your own style? 

That is a very good question. The big question.  No, no, it's a multifaceted I like what I learned my teacher in high school was super old school. So I was taught  how to use a pair of shears. I was taught  how to do a French seam. I was taught how to do a flat felt seem like we were taught certain techniques.

And then I got to college and we were all, I mean, we were all using an overlock machine and it was fine, but  we had tailors and the tailors were from Italy and they were like, No, no, no, no. You're going to be graded on how you cut this. And you're going to be graded on this. And we had to hand sew our interfacing and we had to  hand sew an entire suit, which I did not finish.

 Full disclosure. I did not finish the suit.  I got the lining pinned in and partially sewn. And I was like , okay, I give up.  This is as good as it's going to get.  but  we were taught some old school techniques and. 

When I made my own clothes, I continued on with those techniques. But when I went and worked in a more  ready to wear commercial venture, it was, it was different. You did not do those techniques.  I mean, Morgan did really, and Gary too, they both have a certain amount of  application and applied and I'm a minimalist by nature.

So for me it was a big learning curve on like, Oh, putting that  velvet trim into that spot or  doing like covered snaps and doing cover buttons, and we had an in house dire. 

So, our covered buttons, everything was always tried to match up, which made it also incredibly hard to produce. But it was super fun to figure it out and game it out and, , you got real crafty, like, how can we make these snaps look really old? Oh, yeah, I'm sure there's some crazy, poisonous thing that we can pour on them and, like, hopefully that works!

Windex! Windex works! Cool!  We got real crafty about how we would do stuff. And, I was the person who would come back to them and be like,  okay, we want to pay this much money to get this made, but  to do these trims, it's going to cost this much money. We have to either pull it back.

Or I was kind of the person that bargained with each side and I was like,  We have to pull this design together or we have to pay way more money.

It's one or the other. And we never had enough money. Like every other fashion house, there was never enough money. There was never enough time. There was never enough anything. And , you were always on some kind of crazy deadline. And, so it was interesting to learn, how to make something look beautiful and also get the cost down  the nuances of just how the details really  changed it and how to keep it so that it was their vision, but also keep it so that they weren't 1, 700 each because there was that. 

Do you think that has anything to do with your minimalism or were you kind of a minimalist before that?  I'm a minimalist. I was always kind of a minimalist before that. Anyway, I love, like, give me something good and basic and minimal and make it so beautiful. And I'm in love. I just, for some reason, for me, that clean, minimal, simple simplicity, like just speaks to my soul.

But I appreciate, All of the extras that everyone does. I just don't think like that. For me, it's not how my brain thinks. So I'm always like, God, that's so cool. Or that's so interesting. And I love the historical nods because  I love looking at historical clothing, but I don't,  add it to my repertoire.

 It's not something I do,  and there's plenty of people do it who take something and they modernize it. And I'm like, God, it's such an interesting story. And one that I had never, I don't have inside me. So it's, I have much, like much reverence for that. 

It's so interesting. I'm like a more utilitarian, minimal, like, how's it going to work? How's it going to play? How am I going to do this? How am I going to do that? Who's it going to fit? So it's just totally different shakes. 

Fashion Philosophy and Minimalism

Yeah. So anybody who's ever been in your store knows that you, you make your own clothes, but there's never like, Maya Wesner spring 2024 collection.

 I feel like that maybe the minimalism speaks to that too, of just like not making too much, but I want to know, why did you choose to not have a regular collection of clothing?  Well, I mean, I did. I tried, and I was extremely unsuccessful at it. , I did that.  I did have my own collection. I started, when I came up here, I started making leather bags.

I loved leather. I would work with Lieber Leather in the city. They had the best leather.  And I made this beautiful collection of bags, and I would sew them during the week, and then I would take them down to Mercer Street.  On the weekend and sell them and that sort of fueled me into finally being able to do my own collection and I did my own collection for probably like Five or six years. 

And I did not love the pressure of it and the like,  do it making 17 of these or 50 of the, it was also a different system. Now, when I work with people, it's amazing to me,  there's deposits and there's this, and there's cash before deliver it. Like it's a very different system and 

it's a much more egalitarian system. Back then it was more like, Oh, you might get paid. You might not get paid.  And you're pretty much, it was a small business and we were trying to run it. And I had my first child Gabriel and he hung with me hard.

He was my studio baby and  came to the city,  came to my showrooms. He did a lot with me. And then I got pregnant with Marcello and I didn't have it. in me. I was like, I don't love what I'm doing. I love making clothes, but I want more connection than this. I want more. And at that point I had, I had actually, I had started the store.

I yeah, that was 17, 18, 17 years ago.  So I had started the store on a whim. The lovely dudes in my town, someone moved out of the building in the middle of the night and they were like, , come on, just do a pop up.

Just see what happens. And , I never closed. So it was very cute of them to try that for me.  But I had this store already and I was doing a collection and I was pregnant with Marcello and I was like, this doesn't speak to me in any way. Like I'm not good at it. I don't really enjoy it. I feel like I'm always under the gun for creating something new when I'm not really there yet.

And I also don't have the money to do, like, I just felt like I was doing it poorly. And you know, I spoke to my brother and my brother was like, if you hate it, why are you doing it? And I was like, oh, you mean it can be that simple. So I stopped. I stopped wholesaling like I was pregnant with Marcello and I stopped.

I think I did one last collection and then I just stopped. And, , I focused on the store and I was able to do things. in the store  at the moment,  during the season, I was like, Oh, we're missing this for spring. Let's make skirts. Let's do shirts. Let's make these dresses.

Or, Oh my God, I'm really wanting to make this. Or I really want to try that. Or I really want to die this, or I got this beautiful material. And it was such a,  Better process for me. It was such a more fun, magical, like I'm a Libra. I'm a little impulsive. I'm a little ADD. I'm a little, a lot of things.

So I'm a little like, Oh, let's do this lovely thing today. And it was, it was fun to just be impulsive and to be a little bit less  on a schedule or on This journey. I couldn't sustain. I was not good at it.  I mean, all I, all I ever wanted to do is make things. I mean, since I was a kid, all I ever wanted to do, that's, I knew that from the minute I started sewing, I was like, this is what I want to do.  I just want to make stuff.

And so for me, it was really hard to Beyond this kind of treadmill of  ideas when I'm like, I don't, I don't have that many ideas, right? I feel like this is watered down or I feel like you get one beautiful collection and then you've got to come up with  another one and it's got to be at that caliber over and over again. 

And it just isn't. I mean, I, I think,, you look at in the fashion world all the time. And with the exception of like Alexander McQueen, everyone's collection sort of like you're in love with it. And then you realize like, Oh, it's just becomes a kind of,  beautiful watered down version of that beautiful spectacular first collection, or the collection that made it for them.

And you're kind of like, Oh, it happens to a lot of people. I get that.  But,,  yeah, I just, I agree with you. It was of the moment and it made so much more sense to me and I connected with people in such a better way. And I could also make things for people. You came in and you were, and you know, an extra, extra large or Let's say you were 12 on the top and a six on the bottom.

I could make you things and I could make them and fit them to you. And that appealed to my soul in every way.  Yeah. I have a question here that I feel like that really speaks to it, but what has been your, experience with fashion versus clothes for living an everyday life?

Like the idea of  producing for a fashion or, or even purchasing fashion as opposed to like, clothes for just the act of living.  So I mean, fashion is,  it's a system that I love. I find that right now, I think that there's ambassadors rather than designers at this point.

And it's making me sad. You know, I have to say that Martin Margiela collection that John Galliano did, I was like,  Ah, it was like to see  high fashion was super cool. And I was like, Oh, this is something I'm missing. I don't want to see a celebrity on the cover of Vogue.  I want, give me some like diversity and some body positivity.

And that's what I want to see on the cover of Vogue. I want to see people like that. I don't need to see Anyone who's already famous.  It doesn't really appeal to me, but I digress. So I love fashion. I love the ideas. I love the thoughts. I love seeing  all these beautiful things in these spectacular moments that people come up with.

But in my own life, I want to go from work and my cute,  awesome outfit. And I want to go to my garden. And I want to go hang out with my boys.  I raised both my kids wearing all these clothes  and , we would go in the Creek, we would go wherever. And, you know, I make clothes that are made out of silk, made out of wool, made out of linen, made out of cotton, but , they all can go in the washing machine or they all can be , they're pretty sturdy.

And I,  Loved being able to look nice and wear clothes that made me feel good in my own skin and still move on with my life. Like I could go out to dinner or I could go play with my kids or I could go do this or I can go walk in the garden. Like it doesn't, they're not so precious. It's not like I have to like take it off, put it away, store it away.

 These are clothes you can live in. You can beat them up. You can,  they're kind of indestructible. I mean, I have things that are, you know, 15 years old that I'm like, Oh,  you're still around. Cool. You feel like a nightgown at this point. You're so soft.  I still love wearing you. So for me, I mean, I, I don't high fashion is it's got to fit in.

If I get something from high fashion, I want it to be able to  go on my washing machine. I don't want to dry clean it. I want it to be able to be worn outside in the rain. I want it to be able to travel with me on this adventure, this life I'm living. And. I don't need anything too precious. I need it to be a little bit more utilitarian and beautiful. 

I love that. And I think,, that distinction between, things that  look good in the moment and things that we feel good in is  so much about why your store is, so different than the rest and why your own sensibility and your own selection is so much more usable and wearable.

And I have people, I know like people would walk into the store when I was working and they're like, Oh, I can't wear any of this in my daily life. I'm like, you literally can wear everything in the store every single day. You can throw it in your washing machine. Like you can, you can garden in silk pants.

I've done it.  We're here to tell you, you can. Yeah, totally. Totally. You're fine. Totally. Totally. Yeah, no, I know. It's hard to convince people. I think I've won people over  because of the sample sales and it makes it accessible to certain people. And then they're like, Oh wait, I'm still wearing that piece I bought like 12 years ago or eight years ago.

And I still love it. And like, it hasn't fallen apart and it doesn't make me feel like I can only wear it if I'm having a skinny day or this day or that day. , these pieces should make you,  they should make you feel good. Whatever, however you feel like you should. You should be able to walk through life in them.

Yeah, and I think that your sample sales were also my first introduction to, because it was like, I had just moved up here, I didn't have any money, we had just bought a house, I was like, I don't, I can't buy clothes, but  this , gorgeous, stunning, coat   is now on sale for  100, and that might seem like a lot of money for somebody, but when I'm still wearing that coat seven years later, a cost per use that code was pennies. 

And that's why, yeah. And that's why it was, they're made, they're quality made and they last forever. Um, so how do you know when you are looking at other companies and what is it you look for in a garment that, you know, will work for your customers?  So I have this list in my head of my friends and my customers,  and there's not, and it's like 10 of them.

And I'm like, this appeals to more than three of them. I'm good.  And I think about body type. I think about where they are in their lives. , are they working? Are they professional? Are they home? Are they moms?  What are the things that they're doing?  And I sort of put myself in those positions with people and then I think , Oh, this will work for them.

This will work for them. This is good for their body type. This is good for their body type. And I try to be as inclusive as I can. ,  Unfortunately, the industry hasn't caught up with us quite yet. We try, we try, we try. But, , Ace and Jig was probably my most inclusive and they don't do wholesale anymore.

But it's easy. You can get them online. It's good.  But I try to think of the people in my life that sort of influence me. And they're usually friends or really good customers. And then I sort of buy from that. And my mom,  my sisters,  you, Christy, you know,  Hillary, , sunrise.  I think of all the people, who come in my store, 

and I'm like, what would they wear? That's so cool. I love that. I feel like so many people think that you have to have this company that's , this greater vision. And it really is just I am providing a service for people like bringing clothes into a town that doesn't necessarily have, , a whole lot of new designers, a lot of amazing vintage stores and antique stores and things.

But, as far as  new sustainable designers, it's a little bit, uh, harder to find in this area. So you're just , you're providing a service for people.  I love that. Yes. There's not a lot of clothing stores up here. And that, you know, it makes me sad. I think that  unfortunately small boutiques are a dying breed. It's not an easy thing to do. And I think like, uh, during COVID, I saw a lot of my friends leave, hence Gary Graham, but he did reopen in Franklin.

 But it, it's, it's fun. I have, dressed so many people in our community. And it's been so fun to see like people who felt like they were down on themselves or didn't feel good about themselves or felt like they had, didn't have the money and they would come in during a sample sale.

And I'm like, Oh no, no, no, no, no. I got you covered. I have things for you. , I've got great pieces that will look really beautiful on you or like make you feel good or fit you perfectly. And that is the best part of my job is  connecting with those people and making like seeing people light up and being like, Oh my God, I look good.

I feel good.  And Pam has the respect of telling people, you know, actually that doesn't work for you.

Try this instead.  Even if she knows it might mean, you know, not making a sale. She was like, that's not, that doesn't work for you, your figure. That's just, let's move on to something that, that will compliment you better. Um, I try my best because there are people who come in who I mean, I think everybody has body dysmorphia on some level and I'm like, that is way too big.

It's never going to fit. And they're like, no, no, I'm an extra large. I'm like, you're not an extra. Okay, cool. Let's try that. And then I'm like, why don't you try these things? These things might make you feel like maybe it'll be a little bit better. And it's just fun to see that. And it's also I appreciate I'm when I'm like, that does not look great.

And I don't think you're going I don't see wearing it and why take it home if you're never going to wear it so what advice do you have for people who don't think nice clothes are made for them?  I think that there's so many parts to that question. Do they think nice clothes aren't for them because of their size or because of their circumstances in life or because they think like, Oh, I'll, I'll never keep this clean or I'll ruin this in five seconds. And I have to say ,  these clothes aren't going to be ruined in five seconds.

You can stain them.  That happens. You can get stuff all over them. It's a matter of like taking care of them. I think that wearing nice clothes is kind of.  This  radical self love to wear nice clothes and to wear clothes that fit you and clothes that make you feel comfortable and make you feel confident.

It's the largest organ on our body. So what you put on your skin matters. It really does. And  when you take the time and, go to a secondhand store and, and buy things that are really, Organic cotton or cotton or linen or wool or silk and see how that difference see what that feels like  And shop at sample sales if you can't  there are so many good sample sales out there We all have them.

We all like we really do try if people I know that  Cannot afford the clothes in my store. I always have a list of like, Hey, I'm having a sample sale. There's great things in here for you or the, to the people who like don't value clothes, which breaks my heart in every way.

I don't, I don't get it. Like the, the fast fashion, it's a form of slavery. It's toxic water. There is somebody who is not getting their fair share at the end of that system and there is an environmental problem and there's a toxicity to it. And I just, we have to find a way to like move forward where we value what people do.

The people who make, so for me, I mean, that's like 85 to 100 a piece of clothing sometimes. And they should get that. Like, why, why shouldn't they get that? That's a craft that I don't know how to do as well as they do.  Pattern making, sewing, cutting, dying, embroidery,  those things take time.

And it's interesting that we value  going to a mechanic, which is also a skill or a welder or a plumber, an electrician, and nobody beefs with having to pay them. Yeah. We never question how much our mechanic never, I mean, yes, we go, oh God, that's gonna cost me an arm. Like, but we don't say 29. Say what? . Yeah.

We don't say, oh, oh mm-Hmm. I can't do it for that price. Can you do it for this? Because. Yeah. And you think you could just, you know I mean, they clearly write,  it's 45 an hour and that's how much service costs. And , we accept that, but  fast fashion has sort of ruined everyone into thinking like, Oh, it's no big deal.

T shirts should be 5. And it's like, what world? I mean, even making the material, I don't even, I don't think I buy anything for 5 a yard at this point.  It's just not possible. And I mean, you have to wonder  what's at the end of that system if you do buy that stuff. And I think that there needs to be a conscientious effort and also some education about it.

And I get it. Not everyone can afford it. I totally get it. There, I try to keep my price points at a certain level because  I can't afford, you know, at TRO at 1, 500. I can't afford Marnie. Like I can't afford those larger things either, but it's like, look at our grandparents. My grandparents did not buy clothes a lot, but they bought stuff that was  what they could afford  and they took care of it. They sewed their buttons back on. They mended  their clothes, they wash them conservatively.

They did not overwash them. They let them hang out to dry.   They treated the stains.  It's an act of self love to take care of yourself and your clothes and your body like that to me. Yeah. And I think too, when we wear, I mean, just to kind of piggyback on what you're saying, when we wear things that make us feel good,  we feel better about ourselves and we kind of expect more from ourselves.

Uh, we, we expect more from the world and we expect a little bit more, we're able to say like, okay, you know what, like this person can't treat me like that   I'm going to  spend a little extra time.

making dinner because I actually enjoy that.  It kind of trickles down, I guess, or trickles out to other areas of our life.  It does. I mean, how we put, I, and people, I mean, let's be honest, we still judge people on the way they look at every moment.

You meet somebody and they show up and, and, you know, you show up in something that you feel confident in, you feel comfortable in that works for you, that fits for you, you're perceived in a different way.   It's our armor to the world. It's the way that we are seeing ourselves and the way the world sees us back. . I agree with that.  Your clothing racks always have these unique but harmonious color palettes.

So this is like getting, getting into something fun. Um, knowing that you're not always  necessarily having all the clothes on your hands to order it. You're sometimes you're ordering online sheets or you're doing it, , at the computer or at different shows. I'm always really impressed by that. How do you pick out your color palettes? 

Oh, I knew you're going to ask me this. , I love  the world to me is gray, right? It's a little bit gray. Everywhere. And I, I mean, I love a piece of black clothing or a piece of gray clothing, and I love a neutral any like everyone else, but there's something about the color of like these  beautiful, stunning, magical colors that come through.

And usually how I pick it is I, I walk the shows, I look at stuff and I always have  my anchor sort of collections. And I look at what those guys  the color choices they've made. I buy straight into them. And then.  The secondary and tertiary lines seem to always have  the complimentary colors to that.

So I pull in the colors that go with that. And then it all sort of ,  has this  symbiotic relationship. As soon as it comes into the store, I'm like, Oh, look at that green and that yellow. And then I'm like, Oh, look at that green and that yellow together. Oh, that yellow has green in it.

So a lot of it is sort of just my  mental process of what I see. And I, every season I'm like, I hope it all works out. Like this is going to be really pretty. And then I, I end up making stuff to fill in that sort of works with everything too.  So I love, love, love color. I  worked with a dyer when I worked at J Morgan Pewitt, Monica Damsky, who was a Swedish woman who .

taught me the nuances of color. And to this day, I still argue with my friends sometimes, like, that's gray. I'm like, no, no, no, that's purply gray. , that's like lavender. There's shades of gray. So I just end up sort of, Taking photographs and remembering color for whatever reason.

I don't always remember the styles that I'm getting in, but I remember the colors I'm getting in. And I know that those colors, , those racks and those metal hangers is going to sing. And that is what makes me so happy to walk into the store, is to see all these , color stories and notes and just  this music that goes through my head of like, ah, I love it.

As somebody who was, was the house dyer for Rozae Nichols back in the day, and the back, I'm like back in the day in the early two thousands.  Yeah, yeah, it is now. , I was the house dyer there and that's when I learned my nuances of ,  there are, you 500 different shades of sage green, you know, and they are not all equal and they do not all match.

And no, they do not all match. It would be really nice if they all matched because it would be a lot easier for that job. Yeah. I mean, once you work with someone who's a dyer and they teach you, you really do see color and there are so many blues.

There are so many reds.  I mean, even white, like the way my source painted, I wanted a white, that was not blue and a white, that was not yellow  and not gray. I wanted a neutral white. And that took forever, but we found it. 

 But yeah, I mean, I admire you for being the house dyer because that is not an easy job.  Can you match this piece to this piece over here? And two weeks later, you're like, maybe.  And especially because fabric is a different color when it's wet than it's dry.

So you're just constantly dying something, drying it, dying it, drying it So circling back to, , How we can make more sustainable choices as creators, as consumers. How does this look on your own business, making the more sustainable choice?    At one point in the store.  I realized that  buying from some of the companies I was buying from, I was just participating in a cycle that I didn't like.  I wanted more transparency.

I wanted more sustainability.  That's the reason I came up here. It's the reason I made my own collection. It's the reason that I work with people I work with. And I realized that Companies that were touting sustainability or calling it maybe greenwashing it. And then I would be like, Oh, this isn't made where you said it was made.

Only one thing was made in this place. So that there's these interesting, like  nuanced spots where people can say that's made sustainably, but in all reality, 95 percent of it is not. And I was like, that doesn't work for me. That doesn't work for me at all. And I started asking questions. And if those companies could not answer my questions.

I stopped working with them. I tried to go for companies or work with people who are like,  we love sustainability.  We want to be responsible. Like wool hide. Who's like, we work with a wool coalition,  the wool coalition across America.

We're using, Sally Fox's sustainable, organic cottons like cotton once upon a time was in many different colors. It's not this white, pure,  linen y color.  There were different colors of it.

So I admired that they were like doing the research. Indian ash, same thing,  they're, they use botanical dyes, like they know who they work with. Um, And Lauren Manoogian, you know, she's always been like, I'm not going to dye my clothes. I'm not going to, I'm going to use what the animals have produced.

This is, I'm going to do it. She lives in Peru for six months of the year. She comes back to Brooklyn. So I really started to try to like,  engage people about it and ask them questions. And the last time I went to a show,  there was a really great line and I was like, I love it, but they were like, well, it's made in this factory in China.

And I was like, okay, that's really not my thing.  , and they're like, well, it's really this, it's really that we can certify it. And how do you certify it? How is the water, how are the people treated? , I don't know. I don't know how you,  I want you to lead with that.

I don't want that to be, be  in the back part of your pamphlet that I've asked about.  So I really tried to have conversations with people and there's plenty of lines I dropped because they stopped making things in the U. S. when they told me that things were made in the U. S. Or they stopped making things, you know, with the factory that they had worked with in India or in Peru.

And I was like, well, where is it being made now? And nobody could give me a clear answer. I really try to walk the walk. And there are moments when I don't do it well. And there's moments when I really feel like I've done a good job. And I try to have a relationship with everybody I buy from and, and to know where they're coming from.

Like, okay, it's made in Italy. It's made here. This is how we do it. These are the dyes we use. These are the, this is how it's done. This is, this is their vacation days. This is where, you know, this is the childcare. This is, there's so many things that can be done. And so many things I want to know about. So when a company sort of leads with that.

I will definitely get in a conversation with them or I'll have, like, I'll be like, yeah, I will definitely consider that. So it's been interesting. It's been a huge learning curve. And it's something that I decided   probably about 10 years ago where I was like, these are my non negotiables and I need to start really living by that.

I try to be very, very considerate about where I am buying it from or how the, where I'm, where I've sourced it or who I'm buying it from.

And I have a lot of friends in the industry. And we have a lot of conversations about these things because it matters. People's lives matter and  a happy. I got to think like the the happiness of the people making your garments is going to rub off on you kind of like the happiness of making food rubs off into the food like I just have to think that there's a joy or like a we're sustaining ourselves in a good way.

And so for me that really resonates. And, um,  yeah, I hope that answered that question. Yeah, no, definitely.  

Future of Sustainable Fashion

Size inclusivity,  that's a bigger question. Um, there's a whole article about how Ozembic and Wigovi have, ruined size inclusivity again. Like how, everybody has access to being skinny.

Everybody has access to this. And we're at a place again where we have to find sizing, we have to do this. And  it just, it feels, it feels ridiculous at this point, having this conversation. I'm like, people are different sizes. They just are I have a certain body type.

It would be impossible for me to look like a waif. , I don't have that body type and, you know, vice versa.  You know, every designer has their, it's their prerogative to make stuff that like works for their body type or fits them, but.  Would it hurt people to go up and down like go to an extra extra small or go up to an extra extra large or an extra extra like how I get it.

It's cost prohibitive sometimes, but . It's always good to be able to offer something to people and there's not a ton of options out there sometimes and there's not beautiful clothes sometimes for bigger people and it bums me out because you know everyone talks about extending sizes and it's like okay you made it to an extra larger 16.

 I mean. That's a pretty normal size at this point. So it's just, it's interesting to sort of talk about it. And, we just got an order for a pair of pants for totally custom made for somebody in, who doesn't fit our straight sizes. And I'm, I'm happy to do it, but I've done a poor job at telling people I can do it.

And I need to work on that. And I, I am finding holes in my own like philosophy because if people walk into my store, I always talk about it, but I realized we're such a digital.  world. And I have done a bad job at letting people know that. I mean, I've done a poor job with letting people know I make clothes.

Like I'm not, I'm just that I, I have, I have a hard time being like, I make clothes.  I think too, when we hear all these companies, like being like, we're sustainable and they're not, or they're like, we're size inclusive and they're not. And you're, you get so kind of like the, those concepts get watered down.

So when we want to talk about it, it's, it becomes difficult. And we were like, Oh, I just feel like I'm like jumping on a bandwagon, but it's actually something that does need to be talked about. And it's like, you're probably doing it better than 90 percent of the people that are out there shouting from the rooftops about their extended size range.

Um, Yeah, I mean, yeah, you're, you're probably totally right. I, I just, I, I felt bad that like I hadn't like been clear on my website, but I'm not, I'm only like most of my business is the people coming into my store. So I'm always like, Oh yeah, I'm happy to talk to you about that. But I feel for people looking for beautiful clothes that like, do not fit into a straight size. It sucks. It's hard. It's not easy and it's not accessible. You can't, it would be lovely if we could get all of our clothes custom made.

Who wouldn't want that?  Perfectly great. But that's not the life that we all live. You know, I mean, it would be excellent to do that, but.  There's a lot of shifts that need to happen. And I think it's coming. I think your generation is better about it. And hopefully that continues on. I think that, you know, we, we need to, we need to just keep doing what we're doing and fighting the good fight and  having those disagreements with people online once in a while about  cost a certain amount of money. 

Right. If something is. 20 if a dress is 20, somebody somewhere is not getting paid for their, for their labor. And why is anybody else's labor more important than, you know, that company is still making that, that company is making that money. And like those people are not 

and people get mad. People don't want to hear about it. And I'm like, that's, it's, it's not sustainable. It's not good. It's not a good choice. And,  and I hear it from people who are not.  who are not struggling to feed their families, who are not struggling to pay their bills. I hear it from people, all different kinds of people,  people who can afford a second home, people who can afford this, who can afford that, who have really nice cars.

And, you know, I, I once in a while I'll get into that battle because I'm, I'm in a mood  sometimes. I'm like, whatever. It's not worth it. It's I'm not changing their minds, but right. I can hear Libra, you know, equality now.  So 

Connecting with Customers and Community

what are your thoughts on us as consumers?

What is our. What are your thoughts on our power to shift the tides of how companies produce?   We have so much power with our dollars.  The way that we spend them, the where, where we put them, how we,  how we choose to invest them in our lives and our, in the clothing and the quality of both clothes.

 At this moment, I think that fashion is having a revolution. I think that there is,  there are way too many clothes that have gotten produced. There are so many sales going on. There are so many incentives to buy things.  There are so many people who just keep producing, producing, producing without selling their last collection. 

Our dollars are starting to talk because people are struggling to get these things sold. And I think that we have so much power because. We're starting to say like, Hey, I don't need a new thing every two weeks. I don't need to buy an Amazon haul and try it on for everyone. And like, for what I would like to buy one beautiful, pretty dress for the summer, or I would like to have, you know, a cardian, or I would like to buy this sweater, but I think that we have so much say in what gets.

made because we're not spending money the way we were spending money five years ago.  People are being more conservative. People are being, I, I'd like to think are being more conscientious and I do think they are being more conscientious. I do think there is a kind of like, you know, don't buy anything new.

Don't do this only by second hand, which  doesn't necessarily work for everybody. I don't think you have to always buy secondhand. I think you can buy from people who are makers. I think you can also sustain them and buy stuff from them and support them.  I think that if you see something lovely and you want to support someone who makes something, please that we all jump for joy when we sell something we love. Like, it's so exciting. It's so fun that somebody saw your vision and gets it and wants to, wants to wear it. And so I think that we have to have more  conversations or something has to happen.

I don't know how it's got to happen, but like the Amazons, the sheen, the H and M's, the forever 21s, like, I don't know how we're going to shift people's thinking on this. I think that the people who think like this, you, me, and the, and the people that we know  But we both have friends who don't care, who will spend money on whatever.

And it's interesting because you try to have conversations with them and  they don't want to hear it. So I don't know how we're going to shift this. I don't know how we're going to do it. But I do think that putting your money where your mouth is, is the best way to do it. Is buying from people that really  sustain you and you love what they do and you will wear it and you will.

enjoy it and it will be a purchase that you will think about and you will hand down to someone before you throw it away or, you know, you'll recycle it in a, in a way or never recycle it. You'll put it away for a couple of seasons and then bring it back out.  Um, I do that all the time. I have my original Lorne Mnookin pieces that are gosh, they have to be 15 years old.

And , I just got them out of  storage and I was like, Oh my God, these are so pretty, but there were a couple of years where I had worn them too much.  And, you know, also. moving your clothes on in a way that's conscientious, like giving them to someone you need them or finding shelters that need them or  just helping women get back on their feet after bad circumstances.

But I'm  not sure I have a good answer for that one. Yeah. I, I, yeah. 

All right. Well, I'll tie this up on a fun note. Still quality of life related. What are your favorite thing? Clothes to make?  Oh my gosh. My favorite clothes to make, , I love making skirts because I wear them all the time.  Not such a pants person. As you probably know, I'm, I'm a dress and skirt person, so I love making skirts.

And putting pockets in everything. Yes. 

And if you, do you have any recommendations or anything you want to share for anyone who maybe wants to make their own clothes or wants to get into pattern making or something but they're like too afraid or they don't think, they think it's too much or too much to learn. , you know, there is there's so many classes online at this point for learning how to sew and like our friend cow patch has her like embrace your sewing machine classes, which I think are super cool and super awesome.

Merchanton mills has great patterns and like fabrics and there's so many resources. I'm a big fan of learning how to make your own clothes. I think that  there's nothing quite like it and the satisfaction of making something that you actually love and that fits you and that you've made by your own hands.

And it also teaches you about how hard it is.  It is not an easy job.  Yeah. And you also learned really quickly that quality fabrics and natural fibers are so much better. Oh, yes you do.  And pre wash everything. Pre wash every, I don't care what fabric it is. Pre wash it even like, yeah, wool, all of it, but agreed.

I think that, there's something about.  Making something with your own hands that teaches you an incredible,   it's an incredible part of life to like, get your hands involved. It's like being in, your garden, there's something about growing something and getting your hands dirty, but you know, making clothes is not getting your hands dirty necessarily.

But like, You're going to make mistakes. So just know that upfront,  it's easy to take things out. You're going to make mistakes. Your first piece will be laughable. Probably  your first knitting piece was laughable, all of it. But you know what, if you love it, do it. It doesn't matter how it comes out and using quality fabrics makes a huge difference.

Using crappy fabric is going to give you a crappy outcome.  Yeah. And I always, I had a, , podcast episode that was basically like, we have this idea that we, we want to save time or money by using,  by using cheaper fabrics, but it's like, what is your time worth? You know, your time is worth more than that.

So if you're going to spend your time making something, spend a little extra money on actual good quality materials. Oh, yeah. If you're going to spend your time on it, it's like, it's like making soup with Campbell's soup. You know what I mean?  It's like making soup from rocks. You're like, Oh, it doesn't taste very good.

Okay. Well, they're rocks. I mean, what did you think it was going to taste like?  Agreed. Agreed. Agreed. No, it makes a huge difference. Lovely, beautiful, sustainable, natural fabrics. Wash them and you'll be like, Oh wow, ironing them. Oh my God. Embrace your iron. That's my biggest.  Embrace your iron. It makes huge difference.

Preach.  No, I'm like, I tried to avoid that and notches always use your notches. Oh my God. Yeah, I was like, man, notches are so good.  You're speaking my language. Me and Pam have very different,  styles of what we make, but we have very similar styles of how we make.  And that's where we connect on.

Definitely. It's good. It's good. Yes. Yeah.  Cool. 

Conclusion and Contact Information

Well, thank you so much for joining me today. And, um, where can people find you?  Thank you, Miss Christy, JJ. Oh my God. It's so fun. Um, you can find me on Instagram at Mayor, M-A-Y-E-R, Waner, W-A-S-N-E-R.  Or you can find us in Narrowsburg, New York, 55 Main Street, Narrowsburg, New York.

Um, the website is ww dot mayor waner.com and you'll see Christian on there and you'll see all the fun ladies in my town on there. And, um, thank you so much, Christie. It was super fun.