Learning Experience Leader

55 // Value-Based Training with Kyle Cooper

February 23, 2021 Greg Williams
Learning Experience Leader
55 // Value-Based Training with Kyle Cooper
Show Notes Transcript

Kyle Cooper is the owner of Instruction Studio, a training, and development firm in Tooele, Utah. He lives in Tooele with his wife, Morgan, and 3 kids, Evelyn (8), Nelson (6), and George(4). Kyleโ€™s passionate about education and using effective teaching methods to create a clear and memorable message.

Today we talk about:
๐Ÿ‘‰ Training vs communication
๐Ÿ‘‰ Value-based training vs function-based training
๐Ÿ‘‰ Building learning objectives that actually sound interesting to learners
๐Ÿ‘‰ How to discover and articulate the value that your learners really want
๐Ÿ‘‰ Why value-based training is more than a simple WIFM statement

Resources:
๐Ÿ‘‰ Value Exchange is Product Management (This is Product Management podcast episode)
๐Ÿ‘‰ Merrillโ€™s Principles of Instruction (Blog post summary of the article)
๐Ÿ‘‰ Customer Education Manifesto (CELab)ย 

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/lxleader)
Kyle Cooper:

I would say you know, 99.9% of people they want to do good at their job by teaching value first, you can actually reduce the total amount of training that you have to do face to face the total amount of training that you have to deliver directly. Because if people are invested, and they see the value in what you what, what you're providing, then they may even be willing to go and spend some of their own time or invest themselves in learning that material. Through your self paced content, people are chomping at the bit to have an impact. And that's the difference with value based training.

Greg Williams:

From the beautiful state of Utah in the United States. Hello, and welcome. I'm Greg Williams, and you're listening to the learning experience leader podcast, a project devoted to design leadership and the psychology of learning. This podcast helps you expand your perspective of learning design through conversations with innovative professionals and scholars across the world. Today's guest is Kyle Cooper. Kyle is the owner of instruction studio, a training and development firm in Tula, Utah. He lives into Ella with his wife, Morgan, and three kids, Evelyn Nelson, and George. Kyle is passionate about education and using effective teaching methods to create a clear and memorable message. Today, we talked about training versus communication, value based training versus function based training, building learning objectives that actually sound interesting to learners, how to discover and articulate the value that your learners really want. And why value based training is more than a simple wisdom statement. There's some really great resources linked here in the show notes. You can also show your support for the podcast by going to patreon.com slash LX leader. And with that, let's get started. Kyle, it's such a pleasure to have you on the show today.

Kyle Cooper:

Yeah. Hey, thanks, Greg. I'm glad to be here.

Greg Williams:

All right. For those that don't know, you would love to get a brief introduction to what your current work looks like. What?

Kyle Cooper:

What do you do? For the last couple years I've been building instruction studio, which is essentially a training firm, what we do is we provide training services for organizations. But it's a little different. We don't have our own curriculum, we train on behalf of organizations. So there's a lot of ways to describe it. Some folks have described this as you know, a fractional training service where you can bring in some trainers to support your organization. Or, you know, in some cases, we are the training organization for groups. With our clients, it's less of like a one and done thing. Basically, we maintain a long term relationship with our clients and walk through, you know, we stay up to date with our content and deliver their content as needed. Interesting. So

Greg Williams:

is that, if I'm thinking about it as sort of like a, almost like an outsourced training team.

Kyle Cooper:

Yeah, that's, that's a perfect way to put it. Currently, in our portfolio. It's mostly mostly software training, we found that our model lends itself really well, the software. we've, we've thought about and tried to get into some different areas, but but it seems like that's where we fit best. That's where clients like us most.

Greg Williams:

Why? Why is that? Do you think? I think

Kyle Cooper:

it's mostly because software training lends itself to, to learn quickly. In other words, when we pick up a new client, and spend three or four dedicated weeks in their software, we can learn it pretty well, at least to the point where we can give a really good introduction to the software and give a good sense of how the software works and help their clients understand the value. That's that's, I think, why? But but that's kind of a little bit of an assumption.

Greg Williams:

Yeah. And it's always interesting to, I think what you're doing is fascinating from a number of levels, because you're designing and building training for lots of different types of clients. Meanwhile, you're designing your own organization and trying to find out where to add value and what value people see in you. And so it's kind of meta that way, I guess. But that it's a lot of work.

Kyle Cooper:

Yeah, it has been a lot of work. And I find it like as far as the day to day. starting to build something has taught me that man, there's just so many pieces to building an organization. And it's, it's every day is a little bit different. And there's just a lot of parts that go into it. And so even though I spend a lot of time training, because my role I actually usually start out as the lead trainer on pretty much all our new clients as things sit right now. But I'm also putting on a lot of different other hats, marketing sales, operations. Technically HR, though, there's not really much HR to be done.

Greg Williams:

So this probably is a whole different episode. itself. But there's a question that I've seen come up a few times in my own work. Because a similar to I think the world you're in, I looking at a variety of different needs and trying to interpret those needs into a language of solutions that I can provide. And so sometimes it's like, hey, Greg, we need training on this. whereas others, it's like, people need to learn more about these types of things. I know, this is a big conversation about whether there's a difference versus training versus learning, or learning design versus, you know, a training session or something like that, in your experience. And from your perspective, I don't know if this debates even worth delving into, but I'm interested in your angle on this.

Kyle Cooper:

Yeah, that's a good question. I hear it discussed a lot. It's something that's kind of a hot topic, people will bring it up. Me personally, just throwing this out here. I I have an opinion, but I wouldn't say I have a strong opinion. To me. It's semantics. In other words, when I'm working with a client, there's some clients that say, call it training. Some clients say it's learning some people call me a trainer, some people call me a facilitator. And while they are fairly intentional with their language, I personally am feel like you know, I'm going to deliver the job that you want me to deliver, and it doesn't offend me or bug me if you don't use the same language that I think should be used in the industry. There's a lot of ambiguity around training versus learning. But I think what it comes down to is training is usually performance oriented. So you're looking at how can I improve a particular metric or a particular situation at an organization. And so I can almost see training as a part of learning. It's a type of learning, but learning is a lot broader, where you're saying, hey, sometimes you're learning just for the sake of learning, because you're fascinated by something. And it doesn't really help you improve anything other than just your own edification. Whereas training, good training, usually has a direction and has a purpose. Mm hmm.

Greg Williams:

In my organization, there's this. And this isn't the only organization. Other places I've been a challenge that I'm finding is sometimes these words, and it can be just semantics sometimes, but they take on sort of their own meaning. And so sometimes there's training versus communication. So if I tell you something I've trained you, right. And I don't say that to disparage anyone in my organization, or others who do this, because it's, they have expertise and things that I would be laughed at for, you know. But like, do you see that mindset as you're going into organizations where they're like, Hey, we need training, or we trained them, like we sent out this email communication, or we we had a q&a session, and now everyone's trained, like, do you need to do any sort of change management or help folks kind of understand the difference of like, performance impact versus communication?

Kyle Cooper:

Oh, the yes and no, were the type of hire that we are. And this is something actually, if I know, Greg, that we're connected on LinkedIn, you probably see me post a little bit about performance analysis and context of l&d. And I'm, I'm a huge advocate for, you know, training as directly can or should be directly connected with performance. So I have to be careful in the way that I word this and I think sometimes people misunderstand me. But I actually don't think everybody in the l&d space needs to be concerned about the strategic view of how does, how does this impact performance. And what I mean by that is, there are folks who are technicians who are doing the technical work of training, they're delivering training, they are maybe creating assets, like slides and elearning modules. Sometimes those folks are really just developing the training itself. And my point is, is that in some cases, they really are order takers in a lot of cases. And that's what I see instruction studio as is we come in and we will deliver your training, we're the labor because you need additional trainers. But we're not necessarily the performance analysts. Now, back to your original question of do I see this, this problem of communication versus training? Absolutely. My first experience as a full time trainer all the time. If people didn't perform well, after a training, and someone questioned the training department, it was common tactic in that first role that I was in. The team that I was on it was common phrase saying, well, I trained them, right. And what the trainer was trying to say was, Well, I I told them how to do that. If they're not doing it, it's not my fault, because I told them how they should be doing it. Right. And so it's not just something that happens outside of l&d, but even within it lmd we get a little bit defensive because we say I trained them, right, I did my job I trained them. When, honestly, good training is more than that.

Greg Williams:

And I think you've posted about this before, or maybe I'm getting confused with other stuff. But depending on the gap and the the ideal state you're driving for, or that problem that you're solving, training can help. But we can't lean on the crutch of well, I did it. And I'm done. And I'm escaping any responsibility for performance. Exactly,

Kyle Cooper:

exactly. And this is something that I have learned as an entrepreneur, and I think everybody should kind of have this mindset to some degree in their career. Well, I don't think, you know, we we need to be cognizant of, we don't just blame ourselves for any failure. I think we need to be cognizant of the fact that any failure will impact us. And what I mean by that is, you can have things that happen with your organization that are not your fault, but they are your problem. Hmm, a good example is just this year with COVID, like nobody's fault, right? But at the same time, it turned into a problem for a lot of people. And if it's my problem, I have to come up with a solution, whether I cause the problem or not. And so when we say, Well, I trained them, what I feel like what we're saying is, well, I did my part, it's not my fault. But what we should be saying is, whether it's my fault or not, my I'm on the same team as everybody else at this organization. And I'm going to do my part. And I'm going to ask the critical questions that I should ask to try to essentially give the greatest contribution that

Greg Williams:

I can give. I like I like that a lot. And it's related to some things. I've recently talked with other guests about just around the responsibility of our designs, or of our work, and being willing to say, yeah, maybe, maybe I trained them. And that wasn't enough. And so what else do we need to do to reach this end state that we want to get to as an organization? It's such a different mindset, then, you know, why don't I have a seat at the table? Why Why won't people get training more attention? Yeah. And how can we work together and to get to the end goal that we all want to go towards? And that's hard? It's much easier, at least for me to bury my head and complain?

Kyle Cooper:

Yeah, well, I'm, to be quite honest, I, this is one of those situations, and not to turn this into a different discussion. But if we think about the, the situation of l&d folks asking for, you know, we want a seat at the table. I know we want to see the table to some degrees, that's never going to happen in some organizations. I don't, I don't believe it ever will. And if you don't like that, you may have to change organizations. Or you're going to have to accept and be willing to say, okay, maybe I am, maybe I am going to play the part that I've been hired to play versus the part that I really think l&d should play?

Greg Williams:

Well, I think this is definitely related to some of the stuff that I really wanted to get into with you, which is around this idea of value based training, and even just value itself. I mean, from an angle of an entrepreneur, you're focused on delivering value to your clients, from an angle of a trainer, you're focused on how your trainees or learners are sensitive, like sensitive to what values they might have. So maybe you could talk a little bit about what value based training means to you and how it sort of shows up in the work that your studio goes about doing?

Kyle Cooper:

Um, yeah, so value based training is something that we kind of pride ourselves on. Because it's something that even though it's probably it is talked about a lot, it's not like a new idea. It's not something that we came up with, but but in in practice, I don't see it happening all the time. And I think part of the reason why it doesn't happen, is because the people usually training when when organizations first start to build their training program, usually they just reach out to their subject matter experts, the people who know the product, or know the service, who they were the best at what they do, right. And immediately when you talk to a subject matter expert, usually their first impulse is to talk is to break down, break down a task or break down a process into its components, and then teach those individual components. Which I like to call the function. So when you ask, what is value based training? Well, I feel like there's value based training and then the alternative would be function based training. And a good example of function based training would be if I'm teaching software, I'm going in and I'm showing you how to you know, we'll just use a software application pretty much everybody's familiar with teaching about office, okay, Microsoft Office. function based training is where I go in and I say, this is the File menu. This is how I change the font This is how I change my headings. And this is how I use a table in Microsoft Word, right? Whereas value based training is the difference is I go in and I say, Microsoft word is used to write a letter, write a memo, convey information, or write a document that you could provide to folks to, you know, convert it into a PDF or whatever. And then they could use it as a job aid. It's where you take what's important to the organization. And you connect, what they're about to learn the functions that they're actually about to learn, and connect that with, where, where the organization will actually get value.

Greg Williams:

It reminds me of a conversation I had last year, nationally now, geez, it's been I think it was late 2018. With Lynn McNamee, she is a marketer, but also heavy in l&d space. And she talked about thinking about learning objectives. As more trying to tweak them into more of like SEO search terms, is becomes this poll versus push. Rather than you will learn this, like you will learn the File menu, you will learn the exit button to Hey, are you interested in you know, writing a report, let's talk about how you could do that with this cool tool. Yeah, kind of get to the heart of what you're talking about.

Kyle Cooper:

Totally, totally. And that's where I'm actually glad you brought up learning objectives. Because all too often we create learning objectives that are focused on what we want to teach. They're not focused on what the person actually wants to wants to learn or how that person wants to grow, or how they want to impact their bottom line, or their performance or whatever you may talk about. It real value based learning or value based training, the objectives, or the schedule of the agenda items, whatever you want to call them. They're written in context of the learner. So if I'm reading over the learning objectives as a learner, I'm going to one understand the objectives. And two, I'm going to see, like, hopefully, the the goal would be I'd read them and say, Wow, this sounds like I would actually learn a lot from this.

Greg Williams:

Yeah. It's the opposite of what I often feel, which is like, okay, let's just get me to the next slide. I don't want to read these bullet points.

Kyle Cooper:

I laugh because that that's, that's totally true. We as as practitioners of learning, as we create different learning assets, we tend to throw them up there almost traditionally, like we throw our learning objectives up there and say, Hey, this is just what you do, right? You put learning objectives in there, that's just what you do. But then when we actually deliver the training, like the first four slides were like, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, so we can get right to our content.

Greg Williams:

Exactly. It's much like when I slipped up, I like to cook sometimes these different whole food plant based types of meals. And I'm so grateful for the little button that says, skip to recipe because your website and it's like, here's my amazing 75 photos of my sandwich, and it's like, I could care less like, I just want to make it you know, right? Sometimes that's how it is with our training. It's like, let's talk all about what you're gonna learn. It's like, No, I just want to do it. Now. I want to learn it now. Yeah, you do it?

Kyle Cooper:

Well, and that's, that's where, you know, I think it's interesting that you say that, because sometimes when I say value based learning, when I have this conversation with folks and i and i compare it to function, I'm not suggesting that we remove the function part, the function part is absolutely critical, you kind of almost just have fluff if you don't have the function part. But I'll just give you a good example. So for one of my clients, we we trained, this is a client that I've worked with for a little while, I trained an LMS. For them, it's an academic LMS. And just like any software, there's a lot of functions in this LMS you know how the teacher can set up a calendar for their students how a teacher can set up an assignment for their students, how a teacher can set up, you know, a course for their students, all that stuff, right. But whenever I, whenever I train this particular platform, I always start with the conversation of, we're going to create a better experience for your students. That's what we're trying to do. And honestly, the amount of time I spend talking about that is maybe 10 or 15 minutes, but the benefit I where I really gain the benefit of that conversation where I start to see reap the reward is when I start teaching the functions, I can connect it back and say, okay, the reason why you set up an assignment this way, is because it's going to create a better experience for your students. And that's what we want to do. The reason why you want to Set up the class calendar like this is because it creates a better experience for your students. And I can continually connect back to that value. Which is really what, what it what is that that's what those folks in that particular instance want to hear about. Because to be honest, these teachers, a lot of times when we teach software, we think we're going to come in with this Awesome, cool platform. And everybody's going to be wowed and say, Oh, my gosh, where is this been all my life. And sometimes that does happen. But it only happens if we teach the value. And we make that connection. If we if we depend on the learner to make that connection themselves. What they're probably going to say is, I'm already doing all this stuff. Mm hmm. And what I mean by that is taking it back to that example, with the academic LMS. Teachers are already creating assignments for their class, they are already creating calendars and class schedules, public education has been around for decades and decades. So everything that software does, teachers are already doing. So if I come to them and say, oh, now you can make a calendar, a lot of them are going to say, why would I do that, because I'm already doing that. And even if my way is easier, even if it's easier with the software, they still may not even see it, because it's almost like when you when, when my wife she likes she does not like to drive. And so what my wife does is if she has a route to a particular place, she takes the same route every time. Because she's familiar with that route. Right? There are probably shorter routes out there, there are easier routes out there. But she goes with the one that she's familiar with. And learning is kind of the same. So when we bring in the software, the software might make things easier. But if if they already have a way to do things, and they don't see the extended value, they don't see how, you know, in this case, the experience will be better for students, if they don't see that, then they're gonna say, Well, I'm already doing this, I'm not going to spend time learning a new platform, just that I can do the same thing.

Greg Williams:

That's right, they, the status quo is a real thing that we don't want to disrupt, it's uncomfortable. And I know, I am not smart enough to have it off the top of my head. But I know there's loads of studies that have pointed to the biases and the heuristics that we follow in order to maintain the status quo. And so I feel like what you're describing here is, yeah, maybe the corporation or the organization, in this case, maybe the school district has purchased this, and they made the buyer decision, and they're all jazzed about it that I cool, then we have this new technology. And it's gonna save the world, or at least our school district, but then you have the teachers who are like, Oh, yeah, there's a district buying us and other software thing like they do every three years. And I'll keep creating my big poster calendar and sticking that on the wall. Right? Yeah.

Kyle Cooper:

Yeah. And they're like, I'm already doing all this stuff. And I think it's interesting that you mentioned the that, you know, that the folks that we train, oftentimes, especially in software, where the folks we train are usually not the buyers. They were the people that went through the sales pitch. The people that went through the sales pitch are your VPS, your directors, you know, those are the people who control budget, basically. And the people we're usually teaching are your frontline managers, your frontline technicians, your frontline people doing the work. And they don't know the value. They They probably and on top of that you already kind of started like, a little bit behind, because these people are pulled away from production to come and learn about this platform.

Greg Williams:

Don't think we're being punished to come learn

Kyle Cooper:

exactly. They're being pulled away, being told, hey, there's a new platform, we're going to, we're going to start using, and you have to go learn about it. And if you don't teach the value, then they're sitting there during the training the whole time thinking, why am I learning this? Because I've been already doing this for years. And they have their own way of doing it. And they don't and they don't necessarily want to change, you know.

Greg Williams:

And this is top of mind for me right now, as I'm exploring the customer education discipline as it's really emerged over the last, well, maybe it's been a long time, but I get the sense that it's pretty young still, with the rise of software as a service, and the need for Customer Success managers who are continually connected to organizations to make sure they're still using the software and getting value from it. Now comes this growing interest in customer education that a well educated customer will continually renew with a particular organization right and will see more value. So what I hear you describing is, yeah, your sales team is going to do the value proposition and persuading and and make the sale with a certain band, you know, an executive level as it were, but who's doing that sell on the ground level? If it's if it's not this customer success manager who might be strapped in can't connect with 1000s of offices or people every week? In my mind, it goes to well, the best option is probably a value based customer education program. And yeah, this makes sense from your angle, or is there other perspectives you you have?

Kyle Cooper:

No, I think that makes sense. And, and I think you're you're spot on customer education is going to help the folks at the at the, you know, at essentially the receiving end, to see that value. Hopefully, that's what customer education is doing. And I one thing that I wanted to mention, though, while you were talking, it got me thinking a little bit about how hard it is to change the status quo will a good customer education program, that what they do is they help the end users gain an understanding, and essentially get their buy in so that they feel comfortable with this new process, this new system, this new application, right? But the benefit is, is if you do that, well, you've established a new status quo. And so that challenge of churn is now reduced significantly, because any other player, any other competitor that tries to come in and replace whatever system or whatever application or process you put in, they're going to have to fight against your now status quo, right. So if you do a good job, and you are able to show them the value, then then at that point, once you once you've established that value, and they've been using it for a few years, and you can continue showing them that there is value there. Now you're you become embedded in their culture, you become embedded in their in their in the mind of their their employees, or folks. You're just a part of the process. And in order to get you out of the process, they'd have to go through another painful change.

Greg Williams:

Mm hmm. Yeah, that's a great plane. It has me thinking then this is really important to grasp what what value needs the folks you're training have? And do you have any process or method for going about determining what those values are other than just sort of your own intuition? and experience?

Kyle Cooper:

Oh, yeah, we do it? Well, it's a little half and half. Yeah. A little bit of its intuition. And after learning so many software applications, you kind of get good at asking the questions. When I go learn a new software application. The first thing I'm asking even if I'm not literally asking out loud, but I'm asking in the back of my mind is, why do people want this? Not how do you use it? But why do people want it? What's the benefit. And if I'm, if I'm having a hard time seeing that it's a I'm working with a new client, and I'm not sure exactly where that value sticks, because it's a bit abstract or something like that, go to marketing or sales, because that is their job is to show people value, right. And we don't necessarily need to be salespeople, it kind of goes back to that concept that I brought up earlier that teaching the value doesn't take that long, it might only be the first 15 minutes of your training session. But if you if you if you want to know that value, go to marketing or sales, I guarantee you that they have spent extensive amounts of time trying to convince people that there's value in what they're selling.

Greg Williams:

Totally. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, and they'll have some good ideas. And I imagine to even as you're in these training sessions, or like you mentioned piloting, if you're being a lead trainer, at first, you can probably pick up from those first few groups, maybe if you're doing a pilot or something like that, what they're talking about, and what's resonating the most with them. I don't know if you do that to a certain extent, and then sort of change your training program based on what you're hearing from that feedback. But it seems like a good route to go depending on the number of folks that you're training. Yeah,

Kyle Cooper:

yeah, totally. With nearly every training, I mean, every Our services are a bit unique. So every client that we work with some some clients have us train the same thing over and over and over and over again, like literally, like, almost scripted, not quite, but almost scripted, right? There's other experiences where we essentially are training. We're onboarding clients. And every onboarding is just a little bit different in the sense of, you know, what, what do they actually find valuable? So with with those trainings, I will always be going back to the sales rep going back to maybe an assigned customer support or customer success manager that already knows a little bit about that, that client and asking questions about, hey, what are their intentions with the software? Why are they or from the leadership? Why are they Getting the software, where do they where do they hope to be in three to five years? those kind of questions. And again, we didn't we're not necessarily diving super deep into a huge performance analysis, but we're just trying to identify, again, what's going to be what's going to give value to the, to the users at the kind of at the end user level.

Greg Williams:

Yeah. Is this is really it's such a small thing, like you said, it could just be a little bit at the beginning, but it seems like it's this critical wrapper that needs to go around the whole experience for it to connect with folks. And it's also sounds like it's really important. It comes right at the beginning. Oh, yeah. Almost as like a hook or something. And in an advertisement, you get them interested at the beginning, then they'll stay with you. Yeah. Yeah. I

Kyle Cooper:

mean, you hit the nail on the head. Think about it this way, think about if you had a book. I mean, take it take any self help book. The first chapter is almost always shorter. And it's very introductory, it doesn't introduce really heavy stuff, right? What if you took out that first chapter, there probably still be a lot of good content. But it would change the change the whole pace, change the whole vibe of the book, at least that would? That's what I'm, that's what I would imagine. Yeah. Yeah,

Greg Williams:

it reminds me of the, I think it's called the anchoring effect that you can use in sales, right. So if I'm haggling with you over your contract with my organization, and I set a really high anchor for price, but we also And so then, you know, we barter from there. If we set an anchor for folks, where this is the value, then from then on, everything is in reference to that anchor point, literally. And that's just, if the anchor point is, I'm thinking of like, let's say, compliance training, the anchor point is, you're probably a bad person, so we're gonna tell you to be a good person. For the rest of that training, I'm thinking, Man, this is so dumb, I'm not going to do all these horrible things. Like, you know, who do you think I am? Right, but it's almost this. It's not on purpose. I don't think so directorates or trainers are trying to tell that to learners. But there's also this hidden message to that we assume in those first few moments, that sort of blink analysis that we get a thing, whether you're trustworthy, and whether it's gonna be valuable for us,

Kyle Cooper:

Greg, you have to remember that the message shared is not always the message received, received.

Greg Williams:

Mm hmm.

Kyle Cooper:

And you're spot on when you say, you know, compliance training, I hate compliance. on multiple levels, there's very little compliance training that, that I'm, that I'm pleased with. And it's usually because nine times out of 10 compliance training is just a liability protection. That's all it is. Yeah. This experience came to mind, I'm thinking a little bit about an example of value based training that's outside of software, actually, because it is we've mostly talked about this in context of software. But it does exist in pretty much any type of training. And a good example is a number of years ago, I trained collectors, actually, for an auto finance lender. And this part of my role, we would hire folks who have no collections experience. And so part of my role was to help them we had we had what was we had a call model because it was a call center, right. And this model essentially guided our employees, our people through how to how to ask for ask for the payment, how to navigate back to the payment, if the if the color was kind of moving a different direction. So how to redirect the conversation, how to then take whatever the caller said they could pay and try to bring that up to the next level. Actually, I'm not super proud of my work and collections, I feel a little bit skeevy. But my point is, we had a process. And in this example, that call model that was what we would say was our function. And when I would train this, the way that the curriculum was designed, when I worked there, it jumped straight into function, it said, Hey, we're going to show you how to follow this call model. And what I discovered is when you do that people don't understand the reason why they have the call model or the benefit of the value of the call model. And so they tend to tended to abandon it, because in their mind, I was teaching them a function like ABCD. And if your caller doesn't follow that order, then it's really difficult to apply because they didn't understand what the end goal was. They almost took the training as the end goal is to go through ABCD. When that's not the end goal, the end goal is to collect money. So The way that I, the way that I trained this and change this a little bit was instead of just going and diving straight into this call model and going directly to the function that these employees would actually execute. Instead, I first taught them metrics, I first taught them and said, hey, you're collectors now. And the way that you'll know you're a good collector, is by looking how many looking at how many promises to pay you can get, and then looking at how many payments actually go through after those promises to pay, right. So all of these metrics that the operations team was measuring to measure success. And then when I went through the call model, I was able to pinpoint and say, the reason why we use this in our call model is because it will directly impact your ability to get a promise to pay. Hmm. Right? The reason why we redirect or we use this, this particular function in the call model is because by redirecting, you're able to determine whether or not you should continue the conversation with the caller or not. And if you and if not, then you can move on to the next caller, and look for that next promise to pay.

Greg Williams:

So with this, I know many listening might be familiar with the acronym with some wi FM, or what's in it for me, which is kind of this idea of Hey, before every module or piece of content, or course or whatever, you should have a with them, so people understand what's important for them. And this idea of value based training seems related to that. But perhaps, expanded or different in some important ways. I don't know if you have thoughts about that.

Kyle Cooper:

Yeah, actually, I think you explained it really clearly it is related. But value based training is a little more expanded, because now we're not just saying what's in it for me, we're saying what's in it for us. You're helping the learner, connect what they do with the organizational goals. Hmm. And you're doing it in a way that's in context of them. So you're not just saying, hey, if you do this, you'll make the company more money. Right, right. Like you're, what you're doing is you're saying, No, it's just like that promises to pay thing right with the collectors, what you're saying is, hey, if you do action, a, that's going to impact your promise to pay, and your promise to pay gets rolled up into how much you collect. And we want you to collect money. So we reward you with a bonus, because you collect more money. So you kind of go full circle, you do share with them, what's in it for them, right? What's in it for that individual person. But you're also helping them connect that with the overall organizational goals, so that they can be a team player, because the large majority of employees, they want to do good at their job. I mean, I say large majority, just because I'm not always fond of absolutes, I'm kind of weird that way. Um, but I would, I would say you know, 99.9% of people, they want to do good at their job. And the few folks who don't is usually because they've been trodden down by management, and they're so demotivated that they're like, I don't care anymore. But when they started their job, when they first took their first day at that job, they wanted to do it, they wanted to do well. And so if we can help them connect what they do with the overall performance of their team, and then roll that up into the overall performance of the organization, they're going to be I mean, people are chomping at the bit to have an impact, they want to do that. And that's the difference with value based training. So the only place where I think some people in training will sometimes get a little bit misguided with the with them, is they they try to focus only on the person and they don't make that connection with the overall organization. So they might say, hey, let's make the training fun. because that'll be fun. And that's the what's in it for me. Right. And it'll be fun for you. And while that's okay, I'm not I'm not opposed to fun training, if we don't connect it up to the value, that actually I kind of feel like people are less engaged, because they want to know how they impact the organization.

Greg Williams:

Yeah, yeah, I think what you're describing around that just inherent motivation that the majority of people have, value based training seems to do in my mind is it's explicitly providing a path for that natural motivation to go and to be utilized, rather than sort of stunted and eventually snuffed out in many sad cases. I know that that can happen. But it's saying, Yeah, continue being motivated this, you can add value, and here's how, and here's these functional things you'll need to do in order to, you know, contribute that value and I, I can only speak for myself, but the models I've seen with with them and so forth tend to focus like we've said importantly, right at the beginning, but what I hear you describing also is sprinkling that throughout all of your content, like the rapper touches all of the candy bar as it were. It's not just in the first byte of the whole thing. And so that way that it constantly reminded of this is the value, right? Like in the example you shared?