{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":3.78,"endTime":5.85,"body":"Welcome to The"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":3.78,"endTime":5.85,"body":"Hydrofiles, the HR Wallingford"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":5.85,"endTime":9.69,"body":"podcast. I'm Sally Jackson, and"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":5.85,"endTime":9.69,"body":"I'm joined by Mike Case. And"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":9.69,"endTime":12.33,"body":"we're going to be continuing our"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":9.69,"endTime":12.33,"body":"series of looking into the"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":12.33,"endTime":16.11,"body":"future for energy, and how we're"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":12.33,"endTime":16.11,"body":"going to meet future demand."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":16.77,"endTime":19.8,"body":"Today we're going to be"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":16.77,"endTime":19.8,"body":"discussing nuclear, the future"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":19.8,"endTime":23.82,"body":"of nuclear energy, and how that"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":19.8,"endTime":23.82,"body":"affects water. So Hi, Mike."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":24.03,"endTime":24.51,"body":"Hi, Sally."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":25.47,"endTime":27.72,"body":"So first of all,"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":25.47,"endTime":27.72,"body":"tell us a little bit becasue"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":27.72,"endTime":29.82,"body":"nuclear has been a bit"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":27.72,"endTime":29.82,"body":"contentious, you know. So"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":29.85,"endTime":32.34,"body":"that's, that's kind of dig into"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":29.85,"endTime":32.34,"body":"that a little bit and discuss"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":32.34,"endTime":36.18,"body":"what the current situation for"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":32.34,"endTime":36.18,"body":"nuclear is and how it's being"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":36.18,"endTime":37.2,"body":"developed for the future."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":37.54,"endTime":40.87,"body":"I'll talk about the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":37.54,"endTime":40.87,"body":"UK first. So the UK we've"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":40.9,"endTime":45.85,"body":"currently got about 15% of our"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":40.9,"endTime":45.85,"body":"power comes from nuclear, but a"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":45.85,"endTime":49.42,"body":"number of our older stations are"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":45.85,"endTime":49.42,"body":"coming offline. So in the next"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":49.42,"endTime":51.88,"body":"few years, they're all going to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":49.42,"endTime":51.88,"body":"come offline with the exception"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":51.88,"endTime":56.62,"body":"of Hinkley C, which is currently"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":51.88,"endTime":56.62,"body":"being built. After Hinkley, C,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":56.62,"endTime":60.7,"body":"we've then got sizewell B, which"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":56.62,"endTime":60.7,"body":"is basically a carbon copy of of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":60.7,"endTime":65.56,"body":"Hinkley C, being built by EDF."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":60.7,"endTime":65.56,"body":"And then after that, really"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":65.56,"endTime":69.58,"body":"there's a few other projects,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":65.56,"endTime":69.58,"body":"which are potentially in the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":69.58,"endTime":72.61,"body":"offing. But that's it really."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":69.58,"endTime":72.61,"body":"And it's a big challenge,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":72.61,"endTime":77.02,"body":"because as we want to reach net"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":72.61,"endTime":77.02,"body":"zero, we need to electrify our"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":77.02,"endTime":81.67,"body":"system. So we need to switch,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":77.02,"endTime":81.67,"body":"you know, electrify heating, for"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":81.67,"endTime":85.69,"body":"example, domestic heating a lot"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":81.67,"endTime":85.69,"body":"of our industrial uses, also"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":85.72,"endTime":89.02,"body":"transport, we need to electrify."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":85.72,"endTime":89.02,"body":"And in order to do that, we need"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":89.02,"endTime":95.53,"body":"to double our power generation"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":89.02,"endTime":95.53,"body":"capacity by 2050. One of the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":95.53,"endTime":97.66,"body":"ways of doing that is by"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":95.53,"endTime":97.66,"body":"increasing, and one of the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":97.66,"endTime":99.55,"body":"things we are doing, is"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":97.66,"endTime":99.55,"body":"increasing the amount of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":99.55,"endTime":102.61,"body":"renewables. So offshore wind,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":99.55,"endTime":102.61,"body":"floating offshore wind, solar,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":102.61,"endTime":106.39,"body":"etc, that we have on the grid."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":102.61,"endTime":106.39,"body":"As you increase the amount of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":106.39,"endTime":109.6,"body":"renewables on the grid, the grid"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":106.39,"endTime":109.6,"body":"becomes much harder to manage,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":109.6,"endTime":113.17,"body":"because obviously, they're"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":109.6,"endTime":113.17,"body":"intermittent. And you have"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":113.17,"endTime":115.66,"body":"issues, particularly in the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":113.17,"endTime":115.66,"body":"winter, in the UK, where we"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":115.66,"endTime":119.11,"body":"have, for example, these kinds"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":115.66,"endTime":119.11,"body":"of Atlantic high pressures over"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":119.11,"endTime":121.72,"body":"the UK, or over the whole of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":119.11,"endTime":121.72,"body":"Europe, really where you might"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":121.72,"endTime":124.75,"body":"have a week or even longer where"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":121.72,"endTime":124.75,"body":"there's very little wind. And"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":124.75,"endTime":130.18,"body":"that's a big, big problem for a"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":124.75,"endTime":130.18,"body":"grid, which is dependent on 70%,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":131.02,"endTime":133.84,"body":"of its power, it's coming from"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":131.02,"endTime":133.84,"body":"wind. What do you do for those"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":133.84,"endTime":136.36,"body":"few weeks, where you don't have"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":133.84,"endTime":136.36,"body":"the wind? Or what do you do"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":136.36,"endTime":138.82,"body":"where you have a dip in the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":136.36,"endTime":138.82,"body":"wind? Or what do you do for"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":138.82,"endTime":142.45,"body":"solar, what you do at night? So"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":138.82,"endTime":142.45,"body":"one of the things the grid"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":142.48,"endTime":146.02,"body":"really needs to balance is"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":142.48,"endTime":146.02,"body":"what's called firm power used to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":146.02,"endTime":149.02,"body":"be called baseload, it's more"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":146.02,"endTime":149.02,"body":"commonly called firm power now."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":149.56,"endTime":154.57,"body":"And one of the only real ways of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":149.56,"endTime":154.57,"body":"producing low-carbon firm power"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":154.57,"endTime":158.05,"body":"is nuclear. So as you increase"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":154.57,"endTime":158.05,"body":"the amount of renewables on the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":158.05,"endTime":162.37,"body":"grid, you also need to increase"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":158.05,"endTime":162.37,"body":"the amount of dispatchable firm"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":162.37,"endTime":166.03,"body":"power you have on the grid. And"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":162.37,"endTime":166.03,"body":"the only technology for doing"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":166.03,"endTime":170.23,"body":"that, at the moment is nuclear."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":166.03,"endTime":170.23,"body":"Expansion of renewables has to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":170.23,"endTime":174.88,"body":"go hand in hand with expansion"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":170.23,"endTime":174.88,"body":"of firm power, low carbon firm"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":174.88,"endTime":177.37,"body":"power, and really the only way"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":174.88,"endTime":177.37,"body":"of doing that is by nuclear."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":177.91,"endTime":179.8,"body":"So there are"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":177.91,"endTime":179.8,"body":"countries that are doing that on"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":179.8,"endTime":182.35,"body":"there. So I think France is a"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":179.8,"endTime":182.35,"body":"good example, isn't it?"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":182.0,"endTime":185.93,"body":"France is an odd"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":182.0,"endTime":185.93,"body":"example, because they went for"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":185.93,"endTime":189.86,"body":"nuclear very early on in a big"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":185.93,"endTime":189.86,"body":"way. And they've been trying to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":189.86,"endTime":193.13,"body":"diversify over the past two"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":189.86,"endTime":193.13,"body":"decades, they've been trying to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":193.13,"endTime":196.13,"body":"diversify and move more into"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":193.13,"endTime":196.13,"body":"renewables. So they've got very"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":196.13,"endTime":199.58,"body":"much I think, over 80% of their"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":196.13,"endTime":199.58,"body":"power comes from nuclear. And"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":199.58,"endTime":202.01,"body":"they've been trying to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":199.58,"endTime":202.01,"body":"diversify. But now they've also"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":202.01,"endTime":204.08,"body":"realized that there's a big"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":202.01,"endTime":204.08,"body":"potential for nuclear going"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":204.08,"endTime":207.71,"body":"forward. So they're planning on"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":204.08,"endTime":207.71,"body":"six new plants, large sort of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":207.95,"endTime":213.23,"body":"gigawatt scale plants in France,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":207.95,"endTime":213.23,"body":"Poland is an interesting one,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":213.23,"endTime":215.96,"body":"Poland is very interesting,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":213.23,"endTime":215.96,"body":"because they're trying to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":215.96,"endTime":219.8,"body":"decarbonise, their power is very"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":215.96,"endTime":219.8,"body":"much based on coal, particularly"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":219.8,"endTime":224.42,"body":"dirty coal, dirty sorts of brown"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":219.8,"endTime":224.42,"body":"coal. And they're moving away"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":224.42,"endTime":227.81,"body":"from that. And the way they're"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":224.42,"endTime":227.81,"body":"doing that is both by developing"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":227.81,"endTime":231.89,"body":"onshore wind, but also nuclear"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":227.81,"endTime":231.89,"body":"at the same time. So they've got"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":231.89,"endTime":233.63,"body":"big plans for nuclear as well."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":234.05,"endTime":235.79,"body":"So what you're"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":234.05,"endTime":235.79,"body":"saying is that nuclear at this"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":235.79,"endTime":239.33,"body":"time is a necessity to keep the"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":235.79,"endTime":239.33,"body":"consistency of power to grids in"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":239.36,"endTime":240.71,"body":"many, many countries."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":240.83,"endTime":243.26,"body":"Yeah, in order to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":240.83,"endTime":243.26,"body":"balance balanced demand with"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":243.26,"endTime":246.47,"body":"supply. It's obviously a tricky"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":243.26,"endTime":246.47,"body":"job by the grid operators to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":246.62,"endTime":251.09,"body":"continually do that. And nuclear"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":246.62,"endTime":251.09,"body":"is a really important part of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":251.09,"endTime":253.82,"body":"that puzzle, along with storage"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":251.09,"endTime":253.82,"body":"and along with, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":253.82,"endTime":255.32,"body":"obviously along with renewables."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":255.89,"endTime":257.72,"body":"So how does that"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":255.89,"endTime":257.72,"body":"intersect with the world of"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":257.72,"endTime":261.86,"body":"water? You know, what we do? I"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":257.72,"endTime":261.86,"body":"mean, you don't naturally come"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":261.86,"endTime":263.51,"body":"to the idea that this is all"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":261.86,"endTime":263.51,"body":"about water."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":263.93,"endTime":265.97,"body":"No, but if you if you"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":263.93,"endTime":265.97,"body":"look at where nuclear power"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":265.97,"endTime":268.82,"body":"stations tend to be located,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":265.97,"endTime":268.82,"body":"they tend to be located on the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":268.82,"endTime":272.81,"body":"coast. And the reason for that"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":268.82,"endTime":272.81,"body":"is cooling water. So all nuclear"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":272.81,"endTime":276.8,"body":"power needs large amounts of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":272.81,"endTime":276.8,"body":"cooling water to cool the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":276.8,"endTime":281.66,"body":"reactors. So so that's where our"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":276.8,"endTime":281.66,"body":"specialty comes in. And HR"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":281.66,"endTime":285.38,"body":"Wallingford specialises in in"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":281.66,"endTime":285.38,"body":"looking at cooling water from a"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":285.38,"endTime":288.56,"body":"number of different aspects,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":285.38,"endTime":288.56,"body":"from looking at how the thermal"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":288.56,"endTime":291.65,"body":"plume, how the other hot water"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":288.56,"endTime":291.65,"body":"is dispersed into the sea or"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":291.65,"endTime":295.97,"body":"into a river. What the resource"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":291.65,"endTime":295.97,"body":"of the water is because you do"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":295.97,"endTime":299.33,"body":"have some some nuclear plants"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":295.97,"endTime":299.33,"body":"based on rivers. But also"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":299.33,"endTime":302.96,"body":"looking at the protection of the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":299.33,"endTime":302.96,"body":"site as well. So for protection"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":302.96,"endTime":306.62,"body":"either from from the coast, or"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":302.96,"endTime":306.62,"body":"from fluvial and pluvial water."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":306.89,"endTime":309.05,"body":"So I imagine that"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":306.89,"endTime":309.05,"body":"climate change is going to play"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":309.05,"endTime":311.87,"body":"into that quite a bit. If you're"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":309.05,"endTime":311.87,"body":"looking at sea level rise and"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":311.87,"endTime":312.74,"body":"more flooding."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":312.72,"endTime":316.59,"body":"Yeah, for nuclear,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":312.72,"endTime":316.59,"body":"it's more complicated in terms"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":316.59,"endTime":320.04,"body":"of climate change than say,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":316.59,"endTime":320.04,"body":"offshore wind, because the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":320.28,"endTime":324.15,"body":"lifespan of offshore wind is"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":320.28,"endTime":324.15,"body":"typically around 20 years for an"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":324.15,"endTime":327.36,"body":"offshore wind project, or"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":324.15,"endTime":327.36,"body":"offshore wind turbines, whereas"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":327.36,"endTime":330.36,"body":"nuclear is three times that"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":327.36,"endTime":330.36,"body":"really. We're looking at about"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":330.36,"endTime":334.95,"body":"60 years productive life of a"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":330.36,"endTime":334.95,"body":"nuclear power station, and then"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":334.95,"endTime":337.53,"body":"you have the decommissioning"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":334.95,"endTime":337.53,"body":"phase afterwards. So you're"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":337.53,"endTime":341.16,"body":"looking at much longer"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":337.53,"endTime":341.16,"body":"timescales, in terms of the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":341.19,"endTime":344.19,"body":"climate change adaptation, if"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":341.19,"endTime":344.19,"body":"you like, so you do have to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":344.19,"endTime":347.79,"body":"factor in sea level rise, you do"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":344.19,"endTime":347.79,"body":"have to factor in increase in"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":347.79,"endTime":351.63,"body":"rainfall, increased runoff and"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":347.79,"endTime":351.63,"body":"so on. So, we have to think"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":351.63,"endTime":354.39,"body":"about those things as we're"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":351.63,"endTime":354.39,"body":"building nuclear power stations."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":354.87,"endTime":358.89,"body":"You have to look a lot further"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":354.87,"endTime":358.89,"body":"out an engineer for those now."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":359.13,"endTime":361.8,"body":"We're talking now"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":359.13,"endTime":361.8,"body":"about, you know, large scale"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":361.8,"endTime":365.67,"body":"nuclear plants. But there's also"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":361.8,"endTime":365.67,"body":"small modular reactors that are"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":365.67,"endTime":368.1,"body":"sort of coming online now as"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":365.67,"endTime":368.1,"body":"well, aren't there? Could you"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":368.1,"endTime":368.94,"body":"explain about those?"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":369.0,"endTime":371.28,"body":"Yeah, so there's a"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":369.0,"endTime":371.28,"body":"lot of work been done over the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":371.28,"endTime":374.1,"body":"past, over the past few years,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":371.28,"endTime":374.1,"body":"past 10 years, really, there's"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":374.1,"endTime":377.64,"body":"been a huge push for what are"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":374.1,"endTime":377.64,"body":"called small modular reactors."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":377.67,"endTime":382.89,"body":"And they vary greatly from"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":377.67,"endTime":382.89,"body":"reactors, which are kind of, you"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":382.89,"endTime":386.73,"body":"know, 50 gigawatts sort of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":382.89,"endTime":386.73,"body":"scale, through to the Rolls"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":386.73,"endTime":390.9,"body":"Royce design in the UK, which is"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":386.73,"endTime":390.9,"body":"more like 600 megawatts."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":390.96,"endTime":392.94,"body":"And what does"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":390.96,"endTime":392.94,"body":"that look like in reality? So"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":392.94,"endTime":396.87,"body":"you know we've talked about the"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":392.94,"endTime":396.87,"body":"gigawatts it produces, but"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":396.87,"endTime":399.57,"body":"actually, how big is that? Is"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":396.87,"endTime":399.57,"body":"that building? Is that a car?"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":399.0,"endTime":404.13,"body":"Yeah, so on the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":399.0,"endTime":404.13,"body":"larger end of the of the SMRs. I"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":404.13,"endTime":406.38,"body":"mean, there's some debate"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":404.13,"endTime":406.38,"body":"whether you can call the Rolls"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":406.38,"endTime":410.34,"body":"Royce and SMR really, but it's"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":406.38,"endTime":410.34,"body":"more of an MMR I suppose. That's"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":410.34,"endTime":415.05,"body":"really looking at a similar sort"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":410.34,"endTime":415.05,"body":"of size to, I think the market"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":415.05,"endTime":418.86,"body":"they're looking at his ex coal"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":415.05,"endTime":418.86,"body":"fired sites, where there was a"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":418.86,"endTime":421.41,"body":"coal fired power station,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":418.86,"endTime":421.41,"body":"coastal sites, and coal fired"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":421.41,"endTime":426.27,"body":"power stations. So where you've"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":421.41,"endTime":426.27,"body":"got similar sized grid capacity"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":426.33,"endTime":428.37,"body":"already there. So you can"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":426.33,"endTime":428.37,"body":"replace like-for-like,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":428.37,"endTime":431.58,"body":"basically. You take a coal"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":428.37,"endTime":431.58,"body":"plant, you know, a 600 megawatt"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":431.58,"endTime":434.46,"body":"coal plant offline, and you put"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":431.58,"endTime":434.46,"body":"him in its place, you know, an"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":434.46,"endTime":439.17,"body":"SMR. So they cover a reasonably"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":434.46,"endTime":439.17,"body":"large area, a large building, a"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":439.17,"endTime":443.28,"body":"few football pitches, down to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":439.17,"endTime":443.28,"body":"the much smaller reactors, which"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":443.28,"endTime":447.51,"body":"would be, you know, housed in a"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":443.28,"endTime":447.51,"body":"few small buildings. So the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":447.51,"endTime":451.86,"body":"sorts of new scale, they're"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":447.51,"endTime":451.86,"body":"around 70 megawatt reactors. So"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":451.89,"endTime":455.19,"body":"they're a much, much smaller"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":451.89,"endTime":455.19,"body":"scale, and kind of, they're"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":455.19,"endTime":458.64,"body":"looking at different markets, I"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":455.19,"endTime":458.64,"body":"suppose, like more remote"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":458.64,"endTime":460.74,"body":"community kind of scale market."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":460.77,"endTime":462.42,"body":"So it could power"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":460.77,"endTime":462.42,"body":"a whole community?"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":462.45,"endTime":464.85,"body":"Power of a remote"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":462.45,"endTime":464.85,"body":"community where you don't have"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":464.85,"endTime":467.7,"body":"access to grid, or where you're"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":464.85,"endTime":467.7,"body":"having to... small island"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":467.7,"endTime":470.31,"body":"communities as an example, where"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":467.7,"endTime":470.31,"body":"you're having to import diesel"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":470.31,"endTime":473.49,"body":"for diesel generators. So a lot"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":470.31,"endTime":473.49,"body":"of a lot of small island"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":473.49,"endTime":477.72,"body":"communities run off diesel"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":473.49,"endTime":477.72,"body":"gensets. And the idea is to have"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":477.72,"endTime":479.58,"body":"a replacement for those."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":480.12,"endTime":481.71,"body":"And I assume they"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":480.12,"endTime":481.71,"body":"still need cooling water?"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":482.01,"endTime":484.59,"body":"Yeah, they still need"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":482.01,"endTime":484.59,"body":"cooling water. I think maybe the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":484.59,"endTime":487.74,"body":"smaller ones can be air cooled,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":484.59,"endTime":487.74,"body":"but certainly the larger end of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":487.74,"endTime":490.47,"body":"the SMRs will need cooling"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":487.74,"endTime":490.47,"body":"water. So you're looking at"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":490.47,"endTime":493.26,"body":"either coastal or riverine"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":490.47,"endTime":493.26,"body":"sites."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":493.29,"endTime":494.97,"body":"So do have do"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":493.29,"endTime":494.97,"body":"they have exactly the same"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":494.97,"endTime":500.28,"body":"challenges as the larger nuclear"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":494.97,"endTime":500.28,"body":"plants? Or are they different?"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":501.15,"endTime":503.16,"body":"Very similar"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":501.15,"endTime":503.16,"body":"challenges, really, because I"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":503.16,"endTime":507.18,"body":"suppose the maybe the lifespan"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":503.16,"endTime":507.18,"body":"isn't quite so large, and they"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":507.18,"endTime":511.35,"body":"can be dismantled quicker. But"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":507.18,"endTime":511.35,"body":"you've got very, very similar"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":511.35,"endTime":515.19,"body":"challenges in terms of they will"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":511.35,"endTime":515.19,"body":"probably last a lot longer than"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":515.61,"endTime":519.27,"body":"than renewables in terms of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":515.61,"endTime":519.27,"body":"lifespan of a single project. So"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":519.27,"endTime":524.58,"body":"you have to look at the duration"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":519.27,"endTime":524.58,"body":"of impact for climate change,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":524.94,"endTime":528.48,"body":"and also water availability, and"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":524.94,"endTime":528.48,"body":"so on."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":528.0,"endTime":531.66,"body":"And scanning into"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":528.0,"endTime":531.66,"body":"the future, where do you see"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":531.66,"endTime":533.52,"body":"this going? You know, we're"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":531.66,"endTime":533.52,"body":"already moving into new"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":533.52,"endTime":534.9,"body":"technology. What's coming?"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":535.53,"endTime":537.51,"body":"So SMRs, it's a bit"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":535.53,"endTime":537.51,"body":"up and down at the moment. So"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":537.54,"endTime":540.9,"body":"there was a large project in the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":537.54,"endTime":540.9,"body":"US, one of the first projects"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":541.47,"endTime":545.7,"body":"for the US was cancelled"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":541.47,"endTime":545.7,"body":"recently because of cost"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":545.7,"endTime":548.58,"body":"overruns. And that's going to be"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":545.7,"endTime":548.58,"body":"the main challenge really, for"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":548.58,"endTime":553.14,"body":"SMRs is keeping the cost down."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":548.58,"endTime":553.14,"body":"The idea of SMRs says really is,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":553.47,"endTime":557.19,"body":"rather than these very large"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":553.47,"endTime":557.19,"body":"gigawatt scale nuclear plants,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":557.22,"endTime":560.58,"body":"like Hinkley Point C, which are"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":557.22,"endTime":560.58,"body":"absolutely massive engineering"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":560.58,"endTime":564.0,"body":"projects, the idea of SMRs is is"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":560.58,"endTime":564.0,"body":"really these are factory built."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":564.03,"endTime":566.73,"body":"So they're built in a factory,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":564.03,"endTime":566.73,"body":"everything's built in a"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":566.73,"endTime":569.61,"body":"controlled environment, you"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":566.73,"endTime":569.61,"body":"limit the amount that's actually"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":569.61,"endTime":572.46,"body":"having to be done on site. So"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":569.61,"endTime":572.46,"body":"everything's built in a factory"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":572.88,"endTime":576.63,"body":"containerised or loaded on"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":572.88,"endTime":576.63,"body":"trucks and delivered to the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":576.63,"endTime":580.32,"body":"site. So you have a kind of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":576.63,"endTime":580.32,"body":"factory production line of SMRs"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":580.32,"endTime":585.66,"body":"and that massively reduces the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":580.32,"endTime":585.66,"body":"complexity and also the cost."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":585.84,"endTime":588.84,"body":"But it's very early days really"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":585.84,"endTime":588.84,"body":"and of course early days, you"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":588.84,"endTime":591.63,"body":"know that's that's going to be"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":588.84,"endTime":591.63,"body":"the they're going to hit some"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":591.63,"endTime":594.72,"body":"engineering challenges of how"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":591.63,"endTime":594.72,"body":"they achieve that really. And"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":594.72,"endTime":600.09,"body":"nuclear in a way doesn't lend"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":594.72,"endTime":600.09,"body":"itself to innovation because"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":600.09,"endTime":603.24,"body":"it's so safety conscious, and"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":600.09,"endTime":603.24,"body":"the whole industry is very"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":603.24,"endTime":606.21,"body":"safety conscious. It's very hard"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":603.24,"endTime":606.21,"body":"to innovate in nuclear because"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":606.24,"endTime":609.42,"body":"because of the length of time,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":606.24,"endTime":609.42,"body":"you have to go through licensing"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":609.42,"endTime":614.01,"body":"and so on to change anything on"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":609.42,"endTime":614.01,"body":"the nuclear project. So, it is a"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":614.01,"endTime":614.73,"body":"challenge."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":614.75,"endTime":617.9,"body":"Can you ever"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":614.75,"endTime":617.9,"body":"imagine these small modular"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":617.9,"endTime":620.21,"body":"reactors, or much smaller"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":617.9,"endTime":620.21,"body":"modular reactors in our homes"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":620.21,"endTime":620.84,"body":"powering individual houses?"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":620.84,"endTime":621.8,"body":"No, I don't think"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":620.84,"endTime":621.8,"body":"that's gonna happen. I think"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":621.8,"endTime":622.91,"body":"it's more likely you could have,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":621.8,"endTime":622.91,"body":"as I said, smaller island"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":622.91,"endTime":624.23,"body":"communities or remote"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":622.91,"endTime":624.23,"body":"communities could have an SMR."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":624.23,"endTime":634.7,"body":"And I think where they're"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":624.23,"endTime":634.7,"body":"basically their power, then they"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":634.7,"endTime":637.49,"body":"run for their entire lifespan,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":634.7,"endTime":637.49,"body":"and then they've dismantled and"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":637.49,"endTime":640.91,"body":"taken away and then a new one"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":637.49,"endTime":640.91,"body":"put in so I think maybe, maybe"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":640.91,"endTime":644.87,"body":"for that kind of situation, you"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":640.91,"endTime":644.87,"body":"can you can see them, but but on"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":644.87,"endTime":646.85,"body":"a smaller scale than that, then"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":644.87,"endTime":646.85,"body":"the cost would be too"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":646.85,"endTime":647.54,"body":"prohibitive."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":647.99,"endTime":649.94,"body":"That's really"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":647.99,"endTime":649.94,"body":"interesting. Okay, well, thanks"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":649.94,"endTime":653.48,"body":"for joining us for that one."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":649.94,"endTime":653.48,"body":"This is a part of a series of"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":654.02,"endTime":657.56,"body":"podcasts that Mike's doing on"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":654.02,"endTime":657.56,"body":"the future of energy in the UK"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":657.59,"endTime":662.27,"body":"and around the world. The other"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":657.59,"endTime":662.27,"body":"ones are on, as I said at the"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":662.27,"endTime":665.3,"body":"beginning on carbon capture and"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":662.27,"endTime":665.3,"body":"storage on industrialisation and"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":665.3,"endTime":670.67,"body":"floating wind and solar in the"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":665.3,"endTime":670.67,"body":"Sahara. So do drop into listen"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":670.67,"endTime":673.04,"body":"to those ones and we'll see you"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":670.67,"endTime":673.04,"body":"next time. Thanks, Mike."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":673.16,"endTime":673.58,"body":"Thank you"}]}