{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":4.11,"endTime":6.15,"body":"Welcome to the"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":4.11,"endTime":6.15,"body":"Hydrophiles, the HR Wallingford"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":6.15,"endTime":10.47,"body":"Podcast. I'm Sally Jackson, and"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":6.15,"endTime":10.47,"body":"today I'm joined by Mike Case,"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":10.5,"endTime":15.03,"body":"who's an expert in clean energy"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":10.5,"endTime":15.03,"body":"in terms of its markets and its"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":15.03,"endTime":18.42,"body":"technology. And we've been"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":15.03,"endTime":18.42,"body":"getting together to talk about"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":18.42,"endTime":21.48,"body":"the future of energy and what"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":18.42,"endTime":21.48,"body":"that might look like. There are"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":21.66,"endTime":25.62,"body":"three other episodes, and this"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":21.66,"endTime":25.62,"body":"is the third. The first two are"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":25.62,"endTime":29.34,"body":"on the industrialization of"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":25.62,"endTime":29.34,"body":"floating wind. This one is going"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":29.34,"endTime":32.85,"body":"to be all about solar, which you"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":29.34,"endTime":32.85,"body":"might not think has much to do"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":32.85,"endTime":36.48,"body":"with water, but we'll find out"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":32.85,"endTime":36.48,"body":"why it does in a moment. The"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":36.48,"endTime":39.51,"body":"last will be on carbon capture"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":36.48,"endTime":39.51,"body":"and storage. So welcome Mike."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":39.54,"endTime":40.08,"body":"Hi, Sally!"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":40.32,"endTime":42.6,"body":"First of all,"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":40.32,"endTime":42.6,"body":"before we find out about how the"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":42.6,"endTime":46.68,"body":"solar industry is linked to"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":42.6,"endTime":46.68,"body":"water, let's find out about what"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":46.68,"endTime":50.04,"body":"the big ideas are in solar at"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":46.68,"endTime":50.04,"body":"the moment, and how that might"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":50.04,"endTime":52.02,"body":"help with our energy crisis."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":52.0,"endTime":54.43,"body":"So what we're seeing"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":52.0,"endTime":54.43,"body":"is quite interesting on solar,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":54.43,"endTime":57.43,"body":"actually. So what we're seeing"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":54.43,"endTime":57.43,"body":"is the number of projects coming"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":57.43,"endTime":63.16,"body":"through that are developing"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":57.43,"endTime":63.16,"body":"solar purely for hydrogen or"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":63.16,"endTime":66.82,"body":"ammonia production. So looking"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":63.16,"endTime":66.82,"body":"at areas of hot, arid countries"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":66.82,"endTime":71.74,"body":"where they have very high solar"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":66.82,"endTime":71.74,"body":"radiation that they can use to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":71.74,"endTime":76.36,"body":"convert that power to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":71.74,"endTime":76.36,"body":"electricity and then ultimately"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":76.36,"endTime":78.97,"body":"use an energy carrier, such as"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":76.36,"endTime":78.97,"body":"hydrogen or ammonia, to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":78.97,"endTime":82.6,"body":"transport that energy somewhere"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":78.97,"endTime":82.6,"body":"else. So you've got potential"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":82.6,"endTime":88.51,"body":"there for large areas of Africa,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":82.6,"endTime":88.51,"body":"North Africa, and Australia, or"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":88.51,"endTime":93.31,"body":"other countries where you could"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":88.51,"endTime":93.31,"body":"sensibly produce solar. Actually"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":93.31,"endTime":96.25,"body":"the cost of solar has come down"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":93.31,"endTime":96.25,"body":"enormously over the last 20"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":96.28,"endTime":99.49,"body":"years. So solar is one of the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":96.28,"endTime":99.49,"body":"cheapest ways of producing"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":99.49,"endTime":102.82,"body":"renewable energy, and you could"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":99.49,"endTime":102.82,"body":"produce large-scale renewable"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":102.82,"endTime":107.05,"body":"energy and then export that in"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":102.82,"endTime":107.05,"body":"empty energy carriers, such as"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":107.05,"endTime":109.9,"body":"hydrogen or ammonia, to other"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":107.05,"endTime":109.9,"body":"countries and markets."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":110.13,"endTime":112.38,"body":"So, before we"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":110.13,"endTime":112.38,"body":"come onto hydrogen and ammonia,"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":112.56,"endTime":116.13,"body":"what you're really talking"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":112.56,"endTime":116.13,"body":"about, could we see vast swathes"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":116.13,"endTime":119.73,"body":"of the Sahara covered in solar"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":116.13,"endTime":119.73,"body":"farms to power Europe, for"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":119.73,"endTime":120.39,"body":"instance?"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":120.84,"endTime":125.01,"body":"Yeah, or other global"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":120.84,"endTime":125.01,"body":"markets. I mean, if you look at"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":125.01,"endTime":127.5,"body":"the LNG market, something like"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":125.01,"endTime":127.5,"body":"that, I mean they're global"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":127.5,"endTime":131.4,"body":"markets. So you could be"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":127.5,"endTime":131.4,"body":"transporting that ammonia, or"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":131.4,"endTime":136.53,"body":"that hydrogen all over the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":131.4,"endTime":136.53,"body":"world. So it opens up a huge"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":137.37,"endTime":141.09,"body":"global market if you can produce"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":137.37,"endTime":141.09,"body":"it cheaply enough. There's a"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":141.09,"endTime":144.3,"body":"number of markets that are"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":141.09,"endTime":144.3,"body":"opening up, which are high"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":144.3,"endTime":149.97,"body":"carbon intensity.  As the carbon"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":144.3,"endTime":149.97,"body":"price in Europe and across the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":149.97,"endTime":153.84,"body":"world increases, then the 'hard"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":149.97,"endTime":153.84,"body":"to abate' sectors such as"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":153.84,"endTime":159.3,"body":"manufacturing, chemical uses and"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":153.84,"endTime":159.3,"body":"some transport, heavy transport,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":159.3,"endTime":162.06,"body":"shipping and so on  (they are"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":159.3,"endTime":162.06,"body":"the 'hard to abate' sectors),"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":162.3,"endTime":167.04,"body":"you'll see a huge increase in"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":162.3,"endTime":167.04,"body":"the hydrogen market for those"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":167.04,"endTime":167.46,"body":"sectors."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":167.69,"endTime":170.66,"body":"So, I imagine"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":167.69,"endTime":170.66,"body":"that means that there is a real"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":170.66,"endTime":174.89,"body":"way out for hot arid countries"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":170.66,"endTime":174.89,"body":"at the moment that rely on oil."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":174.89,"endTime":178.43,"body":"Is this right? They could"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":174.89,"endTime":178.43,"body":"actually be replacing their"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":178.85,"endTime":181.88,"body":"fossil fuel sector with clean"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":178.85,"endTime":181.88,"body":"energy sector, because they"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":181.88,"endTime":184.13,"body":"actually have those assets too."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":181.88,"endTime":184.13,"body":"Is that right?"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":184.17,"endTime":187.26,"body":"Yeah, yeah. Why not?"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":184.17,"endTime":187.26,"body":"And I think a number of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":187.26,"endTime":189.84,"body":"countries are waking up to that"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":187.26,"endTime":189.84,"body":"fact that they could produce"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":190.29,"endTime":193.32,"body":"very cheap solar, and they can"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":190.29,"endTime":193.32,"body":"produce an exportable energy"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":193.32,"endTime":195.69,"body":"product from cheap renewable"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":193.32,"endTime":195.69,"body":"energy."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":195.0,"endTime":197.94,"body":"So what we are"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":195.0,"endTime":197.94,"body":"really talking about in terms of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":196.2,"endTime":201.66,"body":"Well, it depends on"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":196.2,"endTime":201.66,"body":"where your market is. If your"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":197.94,"endTime":200.91,"body":"how this interacts with water,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":197.94,"endTime":200.91,"body":"then, is how we get this energy"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":200.91,"endTime":205.2,"body":"that's produced in a desert or"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":200.91,"endTime":205.2,"body":"high sun area in arid"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":201.93,"endTime":211.5,"body":"market is in Europe, and you're"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":201.93,"endTime":211.5,"body":"close to the market, then"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":205.2,"endTime":208.41,"body":"conditions, to where it's"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":205.2,"endTime":208.41,"body":"needed. One thought on this is"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":208.41,"endTime":212.04,"body":"you just put a giant cable under"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":208.41,"endTime":212.04,"body":"the sea at wherever it needs to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":211.62,"endTime":217.11,"body":"pipeline is the most sensible"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":211.62,"endTime":217.11,"body":"way forward. So, producing"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":212.04,"endTime":215.1,"body":"be. But what you're saying is"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":212.04,"endTime":215.1,"body":"actually it's more sensible to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":215.1,"endTime":218.1,"body":"try to transport it using green"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":215.1,"endTime":218.1,"body":"hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":217.47,"endTime":231.3,"body":"hydrogen and then piping it to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":217.47,"endTime":231.3,"body":"where you need it is the most"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":231.3,"endTime":234.33,"body":"sensible way forward."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":231.3,"endTime":234.33,"body":"Transporting hydrogen is very"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":234.33,"endTime":234.81,"body":"difficult."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":235.23,"endTime":238.5,"body":"So tell us the"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":235.23,"endTime":238.5,"body":"process. You've got a solar farm"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":238.68,"endTime":242.79,"body":"in the Sahara, say, and you want"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":238.68,"endTime":242.79,"body":"to transport the energy to"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":242.79,"endTime":246.15,"body":"somewhere else in the world"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":242.79,"endTime":246.15,"body":"that's quite far away. Tell us"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":246.15,"endTime":246.99,"body":"how that works."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":247.26,"endTime":250.5,"body":"From a solar farm,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":247.26,"endTime":250.5,"body":"what you need to have an"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":250.5,"endTime":254.13,"body":"exportable energy product, you"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":250.5,"endTime":254.13,"body":"need an energy carrier. That"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":254.13,"endTime":258.48,"body":"energy carrier is going to be"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":254.13,"endTime":258.48,"body":"either hydrogen or a derivative"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":258.48,"endTime":262.32,"body":"fuel made from hydrogen. So,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":258.48,"endTime":262.32,"body":"you'll produce hydrogen. You"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":262.32,"endTime":265.35,"body":"need water for electrolysis, but"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":262.32,"endTime":265.35,"body":"relatively small amounts of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":265.35,"endTime":268.89,"body":"water for the electrolysis. So,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":265.35,"endTime":268.89,"body":"you'll produce hydrogen. Then"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":268.89,"endTime":271.77,"body":"from that, there's a number of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":268.89,"endTime":271.77,"body":"chemical processes. I think it's"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":271.77,"endTime":275.31,"body":"a Haber-Bosch process. You can"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":271.77,"endTime":275.31,"body":"produce ammonia, or you can"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":275.31,"endTime":279.42,"body":"produce synthetic fuels. So, you"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":275.31,"endTime":279.42,"body":"can produce synthetic methanol,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":279.72,"endTime":283.8,"body":"or you can produce synthetic"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":279.72,"endTime":283.8,"body":"aviation fuels on site, and then"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":283.8,"endTime":286.68,"body":"you can transport them in the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":283.8,"endTime":286.68,"body":"same way you transport aviation"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":286.68,"endTime":287.49,"body":"fuels now."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":287.52,"endTime":289.14,"body":"So you would go"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":287.52,"endTime":289.14,"body":"that step further, because"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":289.14,"endTime":291.0,"body":"hydrogen is hard to transport on"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":289.14,"endTime":291.0,"body":"its own."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":291.0,"endTime":293.61,"body":"Yeah, hydrogen is"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":291.0,"endTime":293.61,"body":"very hard to transport because"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":293.64,"endTime":297.93,"body":"you could transport it in"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":293.64,"endTime":297.93,"body":"compressed form and be able to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":297.93,"endTime":303.42,"body":"liquefy it at extremely low"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":297.93,"endTime":303.42,"body":"temperature. So transporting it"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":303.42,"endTime":305.88,"body":"produces a huge amount of heat"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":303.42,"endTime":305.88,"body":"which requires huge amounts of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":305.88,"endTime":309.63,"body":"energy in order to liquefy it."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":305.88,"endTime":309.63,"body":"So your losses are enormous. If"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":309.63,"endTime":312.87,"body":"you want to liquefy hydrogen,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":309.63,"endTime":312.87,"body":"you'll have huge losses to get"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":312.87,"endTime":315.75,"body":"to liquefied hydrogen and to be"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":312.87,"endTime":315.75,"body":"able to transport it."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":315.75,"endTime":319.17,"body":"Transporting the gasses at that"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":315.75,"endTime":319.17,"body":"temperature is very difficult as"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":319.17,"endTime":322.29,"body":"well, and expensive, and then"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":319.17,"endTime":322.29,"body":"you have the regasification at"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":322.29,"endTime":323.01,"body":"the other end."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":323.04,"endTime":323.82,"body":"Because it's so"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":323.04,"endTime":323.82,"body":"cold?"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":323.82,"endTime":327.12,"body":"Because it's so cold."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":323.82,"endTime":327.12,"body":"So, the easiest way of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":327.12,"endTime":330.66,"body":"transporting hydrogen, and the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":327.12,"endTime":330.66,"body":"cheapest, most effective way, is"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":330.66,"endTime":335.79,"body":"probably ammonia. You"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":330.66,"endTime":335.79,"body":"manufacture ammonia on site, and"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":335.79,"endTime":340.11,"body":"then you move liquid ammonia."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":335.79,"endTime":340.11,"body":"Now liquid ammonia, I think, is"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":342.0,"endTime":346.77,"body":"about minus 33 degrees, so it's"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":342.0,"endTime":346.77,"body":"much more akin to LNG, something"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":346.77,"endTime":349.32,"body":"like that. There's other"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":346.77,"endTime":349.32,"body":"challenges with it, because it's"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":349.32,"endTime":353.49,"body":"toxic. You can transport it in a"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":349.32,"endTime":353.49,"body":"very similar way, similar"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":353.49,"endTime":356.73,"body":"technology that you'd use for"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":353.49,"endTime":356.73,"body":"Liquid Natural Gas, and then you"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":356.73,"endTime":359.37,"body":"can transport that to markets"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":356.73,"endTime":359.37,"body":"around the world, and then the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":359.37,"endTime":365.01,"body":"offloading facilities will be"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":359.37,"endTime":365.01,"body":"quite similar in scope to LNG"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":365.28,"endTime":366.72,"body":"offloading facilities."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":366.9,"endTime":369.96,"body":"You said it"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":366.9,"endTime":369.96,"body":"yourself, it's toxic, and it's"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":369.96,"endTime":372.27,"body":"not just toxic, is it? Ammonia"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":369.96,"endTime":372.27,"body":"is really toxic."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":372.48,"endTime":374.88,"body":"Yes, it's quite a"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":372.48,"endTime":374.88,"body":"dangerous thing to transport."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":375.42,"endTime":379.59,"body":"You can actually use ammonia,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":375.42,"endTime":379.59,"body":"it's quite useful. You can use"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":379.59,"endTime":383.7,"body":"it directly. You can combust it"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":379.59,"endTime":383.7,"body":"directly in engines. So it could"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":383.7,"endTime":387.81,"body":"be used in ships, for example,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":383.7,"endTime":387.81,"body":"to power ships instead of diesel"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":387.84,"endTime":395.37,"body":"or heavy oils. But it does have"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":387.84,"endTime":395.37,"body":"the downside of it, it's toxic."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":395.37,"endTime":400.56,"body":"So on top of the challenges of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":395.37,"endTime":400.56,"body":"the danger element from LNG, you"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":400.56,"endTime":403.38,"body":"also have the toxicity element"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":400.56,"endTime":403.38,"body":"of it as well. There are a"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":403.38,"endTime":406.05,"body":"number of challenges around that"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":403.38,"endTime":406.05,"body":"that need to be overcome to"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":406.05,"endTime":408.3,"body":"transport it globally in a safe"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":406.05,"endTime":408.3,"body":"way."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":408.99,"endTime":411.96,"body":"And those"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":408.99,"endTime":411.96,"body":"challenges are in ports, in"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":411.96,"endTime":416.52,"body":"terms of the facilities in"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":411.96,"endTime":416.52,"body":"ports, and also on ships."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":416.54,"endTime":420.71,"body":"Yeah, exactly. So in"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":416.54,"endTime":420.71,"body":"ports you have to obviously,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":420.71,"endTime":424.4,"body":"LNG, it's liquified natural gas,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":420.71,"endTime":424.4,"body":"explosive, you have to be very"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":424.4,"endTime":427.94,"body":"careful. So there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":424.4,"endTime":427.94,"body":"rules and a lot of engineering"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":427.94,"endTime":431.3,"body":"around how you do that in a safe"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":427.94,"endTime":431.3,"body":"manner. It would be the same for"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":431.3,"endTime":435.23,"body":"ammonia, but with the increased"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":431.3,"endTime":435.23,"body":"danger element of the fact that"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":435.23,"endTime":437.69,"body":"if you do have a toxic release,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":435.23,"endTime":437.69,"body":"it won't just release into the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":437.69,"endTime":440.96,"body":"atmosphere. You'll have the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":437.69,"endTime":440.96,"body":"toxic impact of that. Whereas if"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":440.96,"endTime":446.15,"body":"you have a release of LNG, once"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":440.96,"endTime":446.15,"body":"you've overcome the explosive"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":446.15,"endTime":450.17,"body":"nature of it, you don't have"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":446.15,"endTime":450.17,"body":"that secondary toxic"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":450.17,"endTime":451.25,"body":"implication."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":451.28,"endTime":453.23,"body":"So ports are"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":451.28,"endTime":453.23,"body":"going to have to do quite a lot"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":453.23,"endTime":456.62,"body":"of thinking about how they adapt"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":453.23,"endTime":456.62,"body":"their existing facilities for"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":456.62,"endTime":459.77,"body":"ammonia if we're going to get"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":456.62,"endTime":459.77,"body":"solar energy around the world."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":460.4,"endTime":463.97,"body":"Exactly. So you'll"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":460.4,"endTime":463.97,"body":"have to adapt existing LNG"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":463.97,"endTime":468.41,"body":"ports, where you offload, where"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":463.97,"endTime":468.41,"body":"you want to offload the ammonia,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":468.77,"endTime":471.89,"body":"also where you produce it and"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":468.77,"endTime":471.89,"body":"where you liquefy it and put it"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":471.89,"endTime":475.28,"body":"onto the ships. So, they'll have"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":471.89,"endTime":475.28,"body":"to be carefully thought through"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":475.37,"endTime":477.65,"body":"how you do that. And, of course,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":475.37,"endTime":477.65,"body":"we have the actual transport"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":477.65,"endTime":480.08,"body":"itself. But ammonia is"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":477.65,"endTime":480.08,"body":"transported, at the moment. You"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":480.08,"endTime":483.59,"body":"know, it is a commodity, it is a"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":480.08,"endTime":483.59,"body":"bulk commodity at the moment."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":483.59,"endTime":487.31,"body":"So, ammonia is transported.  You"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":483.59,"endTime":487.31,"body":"will see ammonia trucks on our"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":487.31,"endTime":490.37,"body":"roads at the moment transporting"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":487.31,"endTime":490.37,"body":"ammonia for chemical processes"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":490.37,"endTime":493.52,"body":"and other things. So, we do know"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":490.37,"endTime":493.52,"body":"how to do it. The technology is"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":493.52,"endTime":495.41,"body":"there. It's just scaling it"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":493.52,"endTime":495.41,"body":"well."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":495.45,"endTime":497.49,"body":"And are we"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":495.45,"endTime":497.49,"body":"helping clients to do this for"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":497.49,"endTime":498.6,"body":"solar at the moment?"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":498.84,"endTime":500.88,"body":"So these are"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":498.84,"endTime":500.88,"body":"starting. We're starting to see"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":500.88,"endTime":503.88,"body":"inquiries coming through for"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":500.88,"endTime":503.88,"body":"solar projects. So there's a"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":503.88,"endTime":506.97,"body":"number of areas where HR"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":503.88,"endTime":506.97,"body":"Wallingford could help with"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":506.97,"endTime":510.33,"body":"these large solar projects. So,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":506.97,"endTime":510.33,"body":"in the hot, arid areas, one of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":510.33,"endTime":515.13,"body":"the issues they have tends to be"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":510.33,"endTime":515.13,"body":"flash flooding. So if it's hot,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":515.28,"endTime":518.04,"body":"you have these wadis, these dry"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":515.28,"endTime":518.04,"body":"riverbeds and so on, and you see"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":518.04,"endTime":519.57,"body":"these wadis, and they're"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":518.04,"endTime":519.57,"body":"enormous. You're thinking:"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":519.57,"endTime":523.71,"body":"\"Well, how are they created?\""},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":519.57,"endTime":523.71,"body":"But then when you see a flash"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":523.71,"endTime":527.28,"body":"flood, when you do get rainfall"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":523.71,"endTime":527.28,"body":"and desert, you have these flash"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":527.28,"endTime":529.29,"body":"flood areas. So one of the areas"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":527.28,"endTime":529.29,"body":"we're looking at for these solar"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":529.29,"endTime":533.64,"body":"farms is what the likely impact"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":529.29,"endTime":533.64,"body":"is on fluvial and pluvial"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":533.85,"endTime":539.1,"body":"flooding. And then we've started"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":533.85,"endTime":539.1,"body":"seeing inquiries coming through"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":539.13,"endTime":543.33,"body":"looking at port infrastructure"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":539.13,"endTime":543.33,"body":"for the offloading and for the"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":543.33,"endTime":546.84,"body":"export facilities for ammonia"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":543.33,"endTime":546.84,"body":"and the import facilities for"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":546.84,"endTime":549.42,"body":"ammonia as well. They're"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":546.84,"endTime":549.42,"body":"starting to come through now."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":550.02,"endTime":551.61,"body":"Something that"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":550.02,"endTime":551.61,"body":"came up the other day when we"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":551.61,"endTime":553.5,"body":"were chatting before this"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":551.61,"endTime":553.5,"body":"podcast that was really"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":553.5,"endTime":556.74,"body":"interesting is that you actually"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":553.5,"endTime":556.74,"body":"need water in solar farms for"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":556.74,"endTime":558.87,"body":"cleaning solar panels. Is that"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":556.74,"endTime":558.87,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":559.41,"endTime":561.84,"body":"Yeah, I think in some"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":559.41,"endTime":561.84,"body":"areas, they use water for"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":561.84,"endTime":563.79,"body":"cleaning because, of course,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":561.84,"endTime":563.79,"body":"particularly if you're in an"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":563.79,"endTime":567.69,"body":"arid and in a dusty area, if"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":563.79,"endTime":567.69,"body":"your solar panels become covered"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":567.69,"endTime":570.9,"body":"in dust, they become less"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":567.69,"endTime":570.9,"body":"efficient. So, the cleaner you"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":570.9,"endTime":574.47,"body":"can keep them, the better. In"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":570.9,"endTime":574.47,"body":"some areas they use water, or in"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":574.68,"endTime":578.16,"body":"other areas they just brush them"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":574.68,"endTime":578.16,"body":"off. But of course, you"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":578.16,"endTime":580.53,"body":"obviously scratch the glass and"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":578.16,"endTime":580.53,"body":"so on, and you reduce efficiency"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":580.53,"endTime":583.11,"body":"over time. So there's a number"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":580.53,"endTime":583.11,"body":"of different ways of doing that,"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":583.11,"endTime":584.7,"body":"but yeah, water is is one of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":583.11,"endTime":584.7,"body":"them."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":585.09,"endTime":586.17,"body":"That's really"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":585.09,"endTime":586.17,"body":"interesting, isn't it? Because"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":586.17,"endTime":588.18,"body":"actually, you've mentioned water"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":586.17,"endTime":588.18,"body":"in a couple of areas that's"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":588.18,"endTime":593.52,"body":"needed in the process, you know,"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":588.18,"endTime":593.52,"body":"for cleaning and also for"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":593.58,"endTime":596.13,"body":"production of hydrogen. So, if"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":593.58,"endTime":596.13,"body":"you're going to be producing"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":596.19,"endTime":599.76,"body":"energy in a desert, is there a"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":596.19,"endTime":599.76,"body":"possibility you need to ship"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":599.76,"endTime":601.32,"body":"water to a desert to do this?"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":602.58,"endTime":604.5,"body":"If you're producing"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":602.58,"endTime":604.5,"body":"hydrogen, you'll certainly need"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":604.53,"endTime":608.46,"body":"desalinated water. You'll need a"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":604.53,"endTime":608.46,"body":"water source for the hydrogen"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":608.46,"endTime":611.04,"body":"production.  I think in terms of"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":608.46,"endTime":611.04,"body":"washing, I think that's fairly"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":611.04,"endTime":615.42,"body":"small volumes compared to what"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":611.04,"endTime":615.42,"body":"you might need for the actual"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":615.63,"endTime":616.62,"body":"hydrogen production."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":616.65,"endTime":619.02,"body":"So you might be"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":616.65,"endTime":619.02,"body":"looking at desalination plants"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":619.08,"endTime":621.3,"body":"alongside hydrogen production?"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":621.33,"endTime":622.23,"body":"Yeah, potentially."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":623.46,"endTime":625.23,"body":"Absolutely"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":623.46,"endTime":625.23,"body":"fascinating. It'd be interesting"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":625.23,"endTime":627.42,"body":"to see how this plays out over"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":625.23,"endTime":627.42,"body":"the next few years."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":628.05,"endTime":629.91,"body":"Yeah, it's very, very"},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":628.05,"endTime":629.91,"body":"exciting area."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":630.54,"endTime":632.82,"body":"Thank you so much"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":630.54,"endTime":632.82,"body":"for joining me on that one, and"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":632.82,"endTime":635.61,"body":"we'll be back for the last in"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":632.82,"endTime":635.61,"body":"our series, which is on carbon"},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":635.61,"endTime":637.71,"body":"capture and storage next time."},{"speaker":"Sally Jackson","startTime":635.61,"endTime":637.71,"body":"Thank you, Mike."},{"speaker":"Mike Case","startTime":637.77,"endTime":638.07,"body":"Okay."}]}