Finding meaning in your work (with Satya Nadella, Microsoft CEO)

In this special episode, JP chats to his own direct manager: Microsoft Chairman and CEO, Satya Nadella. Don’t miss this unique opportunity to listen in on a conversation between these two Microsoft execs, as they discuss everything from confronting your own fixed mindset and redefining empathy at work to their shared childhood passion for sports. The episode also features a cameo appearance from social entrepreneur Maïmonatou Mar, who asked a question on behalf of young leaders everywhere. 

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Transcript

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JP: From Paris, this is the Positive Leadership podcast. In this episode, I talk to a very special leader, who I am lucky to witness demonstrating Positive Leadership every day. I am talking to my own direct manger, Satya Nadella.

I really can’t express how grateful I am to see how he personally empowers individuals, teams and our entire company to achieve more for the world. This is a special episode, so we also have a surprise guest at the end.

Let’s listen.

A warm welcome, Satya. It’s so great to have you joining me for this Positive Leadership podcast.

SATYA NADELLA:  Thank you so much, Jean-Philippe, for having me. It’s such a pleasure.

JP:  You know, you and I have been speaking and engaging a lot on a few of the topics we’re going to talk about, people, leadership, values, culture, transformation. But today we’re sort of having a more personal discussion with you, Satya, about those topics. So looking forward to having a great dialogue together.

SATYA NADELLA:  Absolutely.

JP:  Yeah, so let me start here with your personal journey, and your childhood in India. I mean, you’ve shared some of those stories in your book, Hit Refresh, and in some interviews as well, all the way back to your passion for cricket, but also, of course, the big influence, I think, of your parents, from your dad as a civil servant and your mom as a Sanskrit scholar. How has this shaped you, who you are as a leader today, Satya.

SATYA NADELLA:  It’s a great question, and I think, I don’t know, I wonder whether it is Tolstoy, or who said it, but you know, in some sense, what shapes you is your own life, right? And the more you grow, you realize that, and growing up in India, Jean-Philippe, as you mentioned, in the ‘70s, the mid-’70s to late ‘70s, early ‘80s, in what is now – you know, in Hyderabad and Delhi, those are the two cities. It was a very different time and place, even, in the context of India. 

I kind of look back and see what those cities even are today, and especially Hyderabad. It’s just a very different milieu. And to your point, my parents were massive influences in my life, and I go back, and I’ve lost both of them now, and as I reflect on their influence on me.

Just for example, and I’ll never forget this, my parents were just academically super well accomplished. But at the same time, they gave me space, in some sense. To your point about my passion for cricket, I mean, I never dreamt of, for sure, being the CEO of a multinational company. All I wanted to do was grow up in Hyderabad, live in Hyderabad, play for a bank, and stay there.

That was the – I was very provincial, quite honestly, in terms of my ambition. But I think that that curiosity my father had for ideas and new things, and breakthroughs. And the calmness my mother had of being present, somehow – somehow, the combination, I think, has had a significant, I would say – you know, influence in my approach, in the ups and downs. 

All of us have the ups and downs, and the question really is, how do you navigate? But it’s just, it’s been – you know, it’s a massive blessing. I think all of us are shaped by our childhood and parents, and I was lucky enough to have a life with parents who were loving and giving, and in retrospect, a huge influence. 

JP:  I see it, obviously, Satya, in your own interactions with people. I’m sure there is a lot of your dad and mom coming through that. And you know, I’m not going to get into my own childhood, but as well, I would tell you, it was maybe the same kind of passion. I had a passion for soccer, not cricket. And when I was really eight or ten years old, I thought one day I might become a professional soccer player. 

I never made it, by the way, so maybe we have something in common. We missed it, we missed our dream, our dream jobs, earlier on in our careers.

SATYA NADELLA:  We found it, or at least life was kind enough to make sure that we found the right market fit, let’s say.

JP:  Exactly. So you know, Satya, I remember, actually, really well, your very first speech as a CEO, when you said something that really stuck with me. You said, "I want us …" To all the employees, by the way, all the employees were listening and watching, or some of them in Redmond. "I want us to find meaning in our work."

And you articulated, at the time, our new mission as a company, succeeding of course to our founder’s mission. So why do you think it’s so important for companies to have a purpose beyond only making profit and money, which is expected from companies in the first place? Why is that so important?

SATYA NADELLA: Yeah, I mean, there are two trends, Jean-Philippe, for me, in that entire piece. I mean, for the two of us, who have grown up, essentially, through our entire professional career at Microsoft, I felt that there was a reason why I stayed, you stayed. There was... I felt that Microsoft represented, in its essence, something that caused me to commit. I wanted to invoke that at scale.

So in some sense, you know, it’s just not by accident that, whatever, 25 years of my life had gone through, and I was still at Microsoft. And so I said, why is that? It is because of that sense of purpose and mission of the company that I identified with. I always, you know, or we used to, at least when I joined, which was after you had joined, you know, we used to talk about our mission as a PC in every home and on every desk.

And the reality is, by even the end of the ‘90s, at least in the developed world, we had more or less achieved that mission. I felt we kind of were a little lost, and we went on this journey, what is our mission then? And then when – as I reflected on it, the reality is, it dawned on me that this was an audacious goal, right, when it was first uttered in the late ‘80s and the early ‘90s. I’m sure it felt like, whoa, wait, will we ever get to that goal?

But the reality is, it was an audacious goal, but it was not the mission and the sense of purpose. In fact, I go back, all the way to the founding of the company, and I feel like everything that needs to be known about Microsoft in 2021 can be found in this founding moment, because the idea behind Microsoft, and saying, oh, we’ll create a BASIC interpreter for the Altair, is about helping others, empowering others to build more technology.

And so I wanted to invoke that, in whatever reinvention I knew will come, only if we invoke a sense of mission, purpose and pride, which got someone like me to stay in the company all those years.

JP: No, I mean, it’s so profound, and I’m so much in the same belief, Satya, that the true, authentic mission, that is something that our people can live every day, can drive them to do amazing things, and it can – and I’ve witnessed it myself, like you, traveling the world, physically for many years, digitally in the last 15 months, and just – you know, one anecdote among many, and I know you can relate to that.

 What I witnessed, what our team in India did, just during the pandemic, recently, and the way our people had this sense of mission, brought together, obviously, the expertise of technology to enable the first-line healthcare workers in India, which was hit so badly by COVID-19, to save a lot of lives.

I can tell you, the sense of pride they had, helping, belonging to their communities, and helping their countries was just huge. It’s one example among many, where I can see how much the mission can mean to our people, every day, across the planet.

 SATYA NADELLA:  I think that’s another part which I wanted to really make sure we were grounded in it, on an everyday basis, which is, what is a multinational company? I mean, let’s face it, sometimes – you know, you can feel that a multinational company is a soulless company, right, that you belong to no nation, except that, to me, a multinational company, that knows how to really invoke its mission, one community, one country at a time, to your example, is the company that I wanted to work for. 

And so that was, and the Microsoft I grew up in, work in and am passionate about, is that, right? Which is, it’s not about the multinational-ness. It’s about the connection to every community and every country.

JP: And it’s so powerful, as you said, because it brings energy to our people on the front line as much as it brings energy to people in Redmond all the time. 

Let me build on that first mission dialog, Satya, and talk about another key, key driver, trigger, I think, of the transformation of a company, and honestly, of many companies we get to work with as a technology platform provider. I mean culture. 

And I think one of my favorite quotes from you, let me read it, is you said, “Our culture needs to be the microcosm of the world we hope to create outside the company, one where every individual can be their best self, where diversity is celebrated.” 

 So, can you talk more about the way you felt culture was so critical to change or evolve at Microsoft and the lessons you learned along the way?

SATYA NADELLA: Yeah, in some sense, it’s really the mission and the culture, and that’s the entire ballgame. 

The way I have reflected, again through growing up here and thinking about organizations, why do some organizations thrive, why don’t they – or when they get into trouble, what happens? I think it’s really you lose your sense of purpose and identity and pride, or you no longer evolve your culture to essentially match both the expectations of all the constituents, your customers, your employees. 

And so, one of the journeys I went on, Jean-Philippe, was, what does it mean to continuously evolve, what does it mean to continuously learn? And let’s face it, even the biggest issue we as human beings have is we all like to sort of talk about change, but not change, right? Because at some level, the joke is, we want others to change, not ourselves. But the reality is, the hard part of the culture that is needed for anyone to thrive, whether it is civilizations, societies, or individuals or companies, you need a culture that evolves. 

And so, when I went on that journey, I was really lucky after having read this Carol Dweck’s book Mindset maybe four or five years before I became CEO. In fact, my wife had introduced me to that book more in the context of my children’s education and child psychology. And then it dawned on me, Jean-Philippe, that what is true for, say, two children, two girls in middle school, one has more innate capability, the other has less innate capability, but we know how the story goes. If one is a know-it-all and the other is learn-it-all, the learn-it-all will always do better. And I said, oh, that applies to a CEO, but it also applies to the entire company. 

So taking that cultural meme of growth mindset, or more importantly, confronting one’s fixed mindset as a daily exercise is what allows us to, in some sense, be better at recognizing the importance of diversity. Because in 2021, what diversity and inclusion means and the bar for it is very different than, let’s say, 2020, right? If you’re not keeping up, like, if you go back and say, oh, I’m going to think about diversity and inclusion like I thought about it a year ago, guess what? It’s going to be impossible for you to succeed. Even customer obsession or even how we as a company come together as one company. And so, I feel that that everyday exercise of confronting one’s fixed mindset has been one of the bigger changes I think we have brought about to make the case for change.

JP: Yes. And, Satya, I’ve seen so much of a positive impact and so much pain as well, to be honest, for the entire organization, all of us, including myself, to learn and confront with our own, my own fixed mindset, which I admit.

And one story, and I think it shows the power of that cultural transformation, which I believe has been the key trigger of the change we’ve met as a company. Of course, still more to be done, by the way, as you remind us every day at the SLT. When it comes to my own experience, as you know, when I took this global sales leadership role, it was all about transforming the sales culture as well, from a software company into a cloud-first, AI-first company. 

And what I did intentionally was to take, heads on, an iconic artifact of our old culture, the Midyear Review. To explain to our listeners what it is, because it is a very heavy, heavy, heavy corporate process we created as a company for decades, where we basically gathered hundreds of Microsoft people in a room, locked in a room for seven weeks in a row, to review every single data point of our business performance, everything else. 

And it was great, but guess what? Well, we needed a change. So I decided to kill it and give people time back, time back to spend with the customers, to start being more customer obsessed.

And the reaction I got really literally two months in my job, Satya, was so overwhelming positive. I received, like, hundreds of thousands of messages saying it is such a good moment for us. And I understood at the moment, I was just starting to address that cultural transformation of the sales culture of the company. So, it’s a big deal. 

So Satya, just adding to that, culture takes also a lot of qualities and skills from each one of us to change, shape, and also role model. You are known, clearly, and I can see that myself, as a leader with great empathy. 

And I think that you’ve been sharing as well openly how much you learn as well with your son Zain and his cerebral palsy and the way you, your wife, your family have been really nurturing and really living empathy every day. 

But I’d like you to basically bring that context into your professional life as well for the listeners. How do you connect the dots with empathy, but also work, innovation, success in your life – professional and personal level altogether? 

SATYA NADELLA:  Yeah, in fact, the word empathy sometimes people associate with as, oh, that’s some sort of a soft thing that is not related to business. Or people say, oh, that’s what I have for my friends and family, but I’m a much more hard-core business professional. 

And the thing that dawned on me, though, is the most innate thing in us. It goes back even to the change and culture part, which is, the most innate thing in us is that we learn through our life’s experience every day to understand deeply more the people around us, whether it’s our friends, our family, or our colleagues or customers. That’s what life teaches you. If there’s anything, every day you learn more about how to think about people and their thoughts and how to be able to relate to them. 

And that is to me, design thinking, right? I mean, if you think about innovation, right, what does a company do? A company needs to meet unmet, unarticulated needs of customers? How is that insight? Where is that inspiration going to come from? I think it’s going to come from the deep sense of empathy. It may come for an engineer to actually have that stroke of insight when they see a log file of data, of saying, oh, wow, that was the customer journey. I could build a product for it. Or it’s a salesperson who’s listening beyond the words that are being uttered in a particular setting. 

I felt that empathy is a beautiful word, and let us give it the broadest meaning, versus its narrow, colloquial sort of meaning that sometimes we have. And again, I feel it’s at the center of what businesses have to do. 

Of course, the beauty of both, I think, the growth mindset and words like empathy are it also integrates. See, the other thing that I’ve always felt is we kind of say, oh, this is life, this is work. It just doesn’t work that way. Our work is life. Life is work. They’re integrated. And the more we can do, even in language, mental thoughts and processes, where we’re not trying to treat work as some transactional thing and life is something different, where you’re apologizing about one to the other, but integrate the two, I think it helps. It helps in many, many ways in both innovation and success professionally, but also in being able to relate to people in and around your family.

JP: No, it is so true, Satya, and I would say, you know, you, like me, differently... obviously, all of us have different lives. I mean, I got to learn a lot as well and reflect through my family journey as well, the power of empathy, and truly change my approach that I’ve been having myself as a more traditional leader, wanted to compartment my job from my family and the rest. And the reality, it’s not a real, it’s not authentic. It’s not about you. 

And so, clearly to me, that empathy is about opening your mind first and to be able to listen deeply and be keen to learn very different perspective from anyone you get to meet, as you said. And I’ve witnessed you doing a lot of that in many meetings internally, externally. 

It’s also about staying out of judgment, which is so hard for all of us, little voice saying, oh, this guy, that person. So no, no judgments. 

Recognizing emotion as well from others and communicating your own emotion as appropriate at the right time as well, real time. And speaking the truth as well, whenever when it might be uncomfortable, which I think is another aspect of leadership, which is not easy, is to expose issues, problems in a positive way with people. 

Building on that maybe, Satya, you said success can cause people to unlearn the habits that made them successful in the first place. What are the habits or the leadership qualities that you work on to ensure that continued success and what do you look for in your leaders at Microsoft, all the people you’ve been growing, nurturing, hiring every single day in the company?

SATYA NADELLA: It’s a great question and it’s sort of one of those things where every day I’ve learned a ton, quite frankly, from you, what does it mean to be a leader and what does leadership excellence look like. 

And the thing that I would say I’ve come to recognize is, one, it’s a privilege, right, that you’ve got to start by saying the fact that you get to be a leader, it’s sort of it’s a privilege. And it’s a state of mind, right? It’s not like, oh, I need to be in a leadership position to be a leader. It’s sort of an approach. 

And I would say there are three things that at least come to me, and that’s something that we have tried to even build more muscle around in the company. One is, leaders have this innate capability to come into difficult, ambiguous, uncertain circumstances and bring clarity. You never meet someone and say, “Oh, that person is a leader,” if they come into a situation where it’s confusing and create more confusion. Leaders don’t do that. Leaders create clarity. 

The second attribute of leaders is when you meet a leader, they create energy, right, and across the board. 

JP: Oh yes.

SATYA NADELLA: They create energy by not saying, “Oh, I’m great, my team is great, and everybody else sucks.” That’s not leadership. Leadership is about creating energy across all constituents required in order to go after a mission.

The other thing, and the pandemic has been an amazing example, right? You can think about even the example you used earlier in India or every country, quite frankly. The pandemic was a tail event none of us could anticipate. Leadership is about being able to solve over-constrained problems. I can’t wait and drive success in spite of the constraints. That’s leadership. 

 And you can’t say, I’m going to wait for perfect sun and weather and conditions in order to do my best work. I mean, that doesn’t happen. 

And so to me, bringing clarity, creating energy, and driving success are really the three attributes of leadership. I’ll acknowledge that it’s a high bar for all of us, and every day, I like to sort of say, shine the light on did I bring clarity, did I drive energy, did I create success and un-constrain the problem so that it can even be solved? I think those are things that I think at least I’ve come to recognize

JP:  And I’ve come to recognize and lead those principles, Satya, every day as well, which is challenging sometimes. But I would say I would elevate one of them, which is energy, because as you know, I’m trying to practice this positive leadership. 

And one aspect of that is my belief is life is all about energy in the first place and it starts with the people you meet who will lift and increase your positive energy, as opposed to those who are actually draining you. 

I invited a guest, Dr. Audrey Tang, a psychologist, and she used that expression, emotional vampires, right, people who suck your personal energy out of yourself and drain you. And so it’s really important, I think, to recognize that. And also, the professional projects that you decided to focus on that energize you and those that burn you out. 

Satya, let’s talk about really not just the importance, of course, of empathy as a leader, but also the way you’ve been navigating yourself at times of pandemic. This balancing act, again, between really empathy, taking care of others, our team members, community, customers, and driving hard because expectations are high on Microsoft as a public company. How did you make that balance work well for you as the CEO of Microsoft?

SATYA NADELLA: Oh, that’s a fascinating question. I would say that the thing that has been most helpful is the management framework that we started just before the pandemic, that you were obviously very instrumental in helping us create, which was the model-coach-care framework, right? 

I mean, I shudder to think even, Jean-Philippe, what it would have been like if we had not invested in what we felt was necessary for just good manager excellence, modeling what excellence looks like, what coaching looks like. But quite frankly, that last element of care was a game changer, right, because in the pandemic, it became the entirety, right? If you had a leader or you had a manager who felt that they – or rather, who understood what it means to care for their team, which because in some sense, we had this one big tail event, but then within that tail event, every circumstance was different, right? 

I mean, think about it, right? There were people with young children and their education disrupted. There were people with their parents who they had to take care of in trying circumstances. 

A leader, a manager who understood what it meant to provide that flexibility, care for their people, and yet at the same time, move the mission and the project forward, was – I felt – everything. 

So, I think that I’m so glad we started to put more focus on it. But becoming a good manager, even for me... this model-coach-care as a framework I think is just something that, again, requires everyday practice.

JP: No, I agree with you, Satya. I think what I have experienced myself and particularly with some of the first-line managers. As you know it, everything happens or ends at the first line of management in a company, whatever is the size of the company. 

And when I reflect myself, actually, a few years back, I was trying myself very hard to transform our sales managers, as you may remember, across the world. And my team convinced me it was a brilliant, but quite intimidating idea. What they said is, Jean-Philippe, we’d like you to do a coaching, a live coaching session, with just one of the best, one of the very best world’s coaches, called Michael Bungay Stanier, very well-known coach. And so, inviting me on a stage at Ready, which is our internal event, where I had thousands of managers basically looking at me. 

And I can tell you it was a humbling experience – showing, rambling, showing vulnerability and more to thousands of people. But the reaction I got after that moment onstage was again overwhelming positive. People felt that I liberated them by showing my own weaknesses, my own gaps, my own inability to address some of the coaching questions. And that got really us to embark on that coach-model-care framework in a much bigger way. So clearly, to me, it was a powerful moment, and I believe we have still more work to do. But most leaders, I think, have to work on their first-line managers every single day. 

Let’s keep going, Satya, about the importance, again you talk about the importance of employee well-being over the last year. How do you yourself basically balance your professional life, your personal life, with the level of responsibility in your hands, of course, both leading the company, and as the chairman of the company as well? A lot of things on your shoulders, Satya. 

SATYA NADELLA: Yeah, it’s another area that I think we are all learning a lot. I mean, one of the things I feel very, very good about is how, for example, even as we speak, the Olympics are going on and we sort of hear about how people are talking about wellness and mental health as just even for the most top elite athletes, as something that one needs to really pay attention to and even take some individual responsibility, and for the society and companies to really give the space for people to be able to do that. I think it’s a very important part, I think, of our evolution as human beings and society. I feel very good that finally we’re talking about wellbeing; we’re not just thinking about productivity in a very narrow way, but we are talking about it inclusive of well-being. 

So if I had to practice that, one of the things that I feel is to be a little data-driven, right, to some degree, using even how you’re using the most scarce resource we all have, time, if you sort of think about the calendar and you really are about just completely scheduling your calendar in ways where it doesn’t give you the time to recharge, to renew, to be able to come back with sort of energy. I think that those of us who have some privilege to do that, we need to really exercise that. And then for those of us who have the privilege to lead people, we should ensure that we care about the well-being of the people who we lead, right? In some sense, each one of us can do more to recognize our own needs for well-being and the needs for well-being of the people we lead.

One of the practices, at least, I am trying to do for my own personal self is being present, right? One of the things about work-life balance, sometimes it gets you to think, oh, my God, do I have work-life balance, and it creates its own sense of anxiety because you’re trying to balance something. 

But if you sort of say, well, at least the time I have with, say, my daughters or my dogs or my wife or my friends, my family, am I really present or am I somewhere else? And that everyday exercise I think has been a revelation. It does require real practice. It’s like meditative. And so, I think each of us will have to develop our own habits. But well-being is, I think, one of the things which we will talk of for many, many decades and years to come, because it is, I think, core to what makes us tick as human beings.

JP: Yeah, I think it is, again, a great, I think, well a learning as well, I share with you, Satya, and I think you made it perfectly right. I think to me it’s again, all about modeling as a manager or leader. And if you don’t start by taking care of yourself, you’re in trouble. You’re in trouble with your people, your family, everyone else.

Thinking of yourself, both from a health standpoint, but also mental wellness, mindfulness, so that you can really bring in your mind every day when you wake up and engage in every moment of life, that positive energy that you want to carry to the others you engage with in every single moment. I found that when I’m really witnessing myself and showing that positive energy, it can make a big difference. That starts with me taking care of myself. So very good, important reminder for us, Satya. 

One final question, if I may. You know, you are inspiring so many people, not just within Microsoft, outside the company, as you know. In particular, so many young leaders around the world. And on behalf of those young, passionate, purpose-driven entrepreneurs out there, I wanted to give the floor to a very special young social entrepreneur from my Live for Good foundation. Her name is Mai and she’s going to she’s going to ask you a question. Maï, welcome. Bienvenue Maï. 

MAÏ: Thank you, Jean-Philippe. And so nice to meet you, Satya. 

I am Maï, the co-founder of Gribouilli, a French learning community of 1,000 nannies, enabling social inclusion and employability. We strive to provide the best education in the early life of children and work-life balance for parents. 

I met Jean-Philippe at the very beginning of my social entrepreneurship journey when his foundation supported me, and it is a privilege to participate to the Positive Leadership Podcast today. 

And after listening to your amazing story, Satya, I want to ask you, what advice would you offer to the listeners today that are early in their careers and eager to make an impact?

SATYA NADELLA: First of all, Maï, it’s so wonderful to meet you and hear about sort of your work, your foundation. It’s pretty inspiring. I’m actually very cognizant of the impact people in your profession have on early childhood and early childhood development and how important an area it is. 

And so to me, if I had to sort of provide any advice at all. I think sometimes what happens to any of us is we so think about achieving some objective, some goal professionally, that we lose sight of what we are doing currently and the impact it can have.

I always say it’s sort of slightly glib, but I like it because it’s... Because don’t wait for your next job to do your best work. Try to define what you’re doing in the broadest way, because it creates so much energy for yourself, that then you create energy around it, and in some sense, it propels you forward towards your goal. It doesn’t mean you can’t have big, big dreams. You should. But at the same time, let us also be grounded in how important a job you are doing today. 

When I reflect back on my Microsoft career, that has been true. I felt the first job I had at Microsoft was as important as the CEO job. I never felt any different as a 24-year-old joining the company than I was, let’s say, as a 46-year-old becoming CEO. It was exactly the same. I felt like, oh my God, this is the biggest job, greatest job I can have. And I think it was helpful. 

And so, I think what you are doing in your foundation and all those who are associated in your foundation clearly are having, going to have a broad impact, one child at a time, in the most formative time of their life. And so, wow, what a what an amazing opportunity. And so therefore, that’s kind of how, at least, I would approach.

JP: Thank you so much, Satya. 

Let me, if you don’t mind, just recap my own learning doing these podcasts. I’m trying to share with my listeners the key takeaways very quickly. You know, number one, I think as you said so many times, build a mission that becomes a platform for your people to derive meaning in their day-to-day work. It’s so powerful. 

Number two, confront your fixed mindset every day. 

Number three, really develop empathy as your appetite to learn every day from every person you’re going to meet in life.

Number four, leadership is a privilege and a state of mind. And as you bring clarity, you create positive energy and you drive success, I think you will end up being a reasonable to more than decent leader.

Be present in your life and don’t wait for your next job to have a positive impact in the world. 

I think that’s a wonderful, inspiring discussion, Satya. Thank you so much for being a very special guest for me, as you can imagine, in this podcast, and I’m sure the listeners will share tons of feedback. And thank you again so much for anything you’ve done, not just with Microsoft, but outside as well. Thank you. 

SATYA NADELLA: Thank you. Thank you so much, Jean-Philippe. It was such a tremendous opportunity for, you know, being able to join you, and for your leadership and your inspiration. I’ve learned so much from you, as I said. It’s been wonderful having this conversation.

JP: Thank you so much.

I hope you had a great time listening. Thanks so much for joining me today and tune in next time for a bonus episode. The bonus episodes will be done with my fellow French speakers.

And the first one will be a conversation with the founder and CEO of Open Classrooms, Pierre Dubuc.

For everyone else, I’ll be back with an English-speaking episode in a couple of weeks to continue our Positive Leadership journey.