You’re Not Behind—You’re Playing the Wrong Game

Are you playing to win, or just playing not to lose? 

There's a mindset that is quietly shaping your life...

Watching the Olympics this year got us thinking — not just about athletic excellence, but about the mindset behind it. Do you want to win because you've pushed yourself to your absolute best? Or do you want to win simply because everyone else fell short

In this episode, Stephanie and Maren dive deep into the difference between a fixed mindset and a growth mindset — and how this one distinction is quietly shaping your relationships, your business, your leadership, and your life

Spoiler: it's not an all-or-nothing thing. We all have both. The real question is — where is each one showing up for you?

🎧 What You'll Take Away

• Why the process matters more than the outcome — and what Carol Dweck's groundbreaking research with children reveals about how we're wired for (or against) growth
• The hidden cost of a disposable mindset — in business, in relationships, and in how we lead others
• How to find your exemplars — and why surrounding yourself with people who call you up is the secret to true excellence
• The snowboard principle — what relaxing your shoulders has to do with resilience in business and life
• Why what frustrates you about the world might be your unique fingerprint — and the invitation to up-level that very field

"Be kind with the self you're becoming — because you haven't become that person yet. You're in the making." — Stephanie

📚 Resources Mentioned

• Mindset: The New Psychology of Success by Carol Dweck — Find it on Amazon
• Nadia Comaneci — the 1976 Olympic gymnast who scored the first perfect 10 and up-leveled the entire sport of gymnastics

🙌 We Want to Hear From You!

What area of your life are you ready to up-level? What does the world need — and could you be the one to help with that?

Watch on YouTube

TRANSCRIPT

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📬  Connect With Us
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Transcript

Framing The Question Of Winning

Stephanie 0:03

In a world where we have everything and it's still not enough, we're often left wondering, is this really it?

Maren 0:10

Deep inside, you know there's more to life. You're ready to leave behind the old push your way through and claim the deeper, more meaningful life that's calling you.

Stephanie 0:19

That's what we invite you to explore with us.

Stephanie and Maren 0:22

We're your hosts, Stephanie Allen and Maren Oslac. And this is The Soulful Leader Podcast.

Fixed Vs Growth Mindset Explained

Stephanie 0:30

Yay! So I'm curious. I've been watching the Olympics over the last little while, and I'm really curious. Have you ever played at something that you wanted to win at all costs? Like, like you would do anything to win. Or you're in business and you'd do anything to like outbeat the competition. And I'm just curious because there's been times in my life when I've competed and I just wish my competition would go away so that I could win. I can relate to that. However, when I really sit with it, would you rather win against, or at least you know place in the top three, with absolute excellence? Or would you rather win and stand at the top of the podium with a bunch of people who eh, they're not so great, because you took out all the best people?

Maren 1:33

Or somebody did.

Stephanie 1:35

Or, you know, I guess this is kind of what I'm talking about. Is like, you know, Maren and I really look at mindsets. You know, if you're a growth mindset or a fixed mindset, meaning, do you want to evolve and grow and be better? Not from striving and pushing, but that that's actually your birthright, is to strengthen your gifts and strengthen your strengths. Or would you rather be a fixed it's like, why bother? It's not gonna work anyway, and this is good enough, but more from a place of a why bother place, not from a place of self-love and acceptance of like, hey, I'm good, I'm great, not from that place.

Maren 2:20

So I want to go a little further down the fixed and growth mindset rabbit hole. Because you and I have done a lot of work with this, and I don't know if our listeners have. So there's a woman named Carol Dweck who has a wonderful book about mindset out there, and she talks about fixed and growth mindsets, and she did a study. Actually, she's done lots of them at this point, and I believe the initial one that I had heard of anyway, was with children, and she tested children. She took a group of, two different groups of children and basically said to them, all right, here's the deal. Group A, they were judged, they were graded based on just the outcome, whether they got correct answers or not correct answers. Period end of story. And the second group of people was actually graded on their process. How did you get to that answer? And the first level, they did stuff that was really easy, right? Everybody got 100% on everything, and then they went to the second level a little bit harder questions and the next level. And what they found was people who have fixed mindsets are ones that are usually trained in that the answer is all that matters. How you got to it doesn't matter, the answer is all that matters. And what they found with these children is that the ones who were graded just on the answer, they started to get more and more fearful the harder the questions got. They didn't...

Stephanie 4:05

more anxiety would come up...

Maren 4:07

...more anxiety. They didn't want to try, they were cheating off of each other's papers, like all of the stuff that we tend to feel inside of ourselves, right? The ones who were graded based on their process got more curious and more excited as the problems got harder.

Culture, Teams, And Accountability

Stephanie 4:29

I think this is so powerful because not only as children, it was like you know, evolution of growth, but I think of like relationships. It's like just that belief, like, well, if it's a great relationship, it's easy. It's like, I'm sorry. I mean, I worked with thousands of people and great who have had good relationships. And I'd say, well, you know, how did you get there? Because it's about their process and it's like what they learn. It's not about whether or not the outer outcome is good or bad or right or wrong. It's like, man, we both had to work at it, and they have a sense of humor and they're curious. And I don't know, I just like, what are we doing in society that we are cultivating this outer mindset, right? Fixed mindset. And how do we change it? And how do we change it.

Maren 5:19

As long as you win, that's all that matters.

Stephanie 5:22

Yeah,

Maren 5:22

Yeah. And you know, it's like we see it. I see both of those happening in the Olympics right now. And then I also see it in business, where just recently you had an experience where somebody said to you, you know, tell us about...

Stephanie 5:37

Like you know, it's for me, the most important thing is that I have a good culture. Meaning, if I have people on my team that are heartful and are willing to learn and grow, have a growth mindset, they can make mistakes, they can do all kinds, like you know, there's space for that.

Maren 5:59

And that's how you foster a growth mindset is you make space for it.

Stephanie 6:04

Yeah, you gotta make space for it. It's like, you know, we're human, we're gonna make mistakes. It's like, I mean, you know, as long as you are in integrity and you're not stealing from your... but again, that's culture, right? If you have a good culture, you've got someone who has the same values as you, who are aligned with your your mission and your vision, and who are actually invested in helping you get there. Like they're on board with you. They're not just, they're not just employees, they're teammates. They want to see you succeed. Yeah, we want to see each other succeed, right? So there's this wonderful team. So to me, that is the most important thing because so I believe you you can always learn skill. You can only but you can't always learn a good ethics or a good a good, you can't create a good person. That has to come from them, right? So recently, yeah, I had somebody that had made some mistakes and did some things, and you know, I was sharing with another group of friends of mine who are business owners, and they're like, oh, we'll just let them go, let them go. I'm like, oh my god, I it hurt my heart so much. I'm like, you're not hearing me. Like, I'm not complaining about this person. I'm just I'm actually taking personal accountability because I think I have maybe given them the wrong things that you know, the things that are not really truly theirs to do. Like, I think maybe I was supposed to be doing that. It's mine to do, and I schlepped my responsibility. Or I'm also looking at it, it's like, yeah, but they've got all these talents over here. How can I create an environment for those talents to flourish? Because that would help both of us. So I took the responsibility and the accountability rather than just saying, oh, well, just let them go. It's you know, it's not nothing personal, it's it's business. I'm like, ouch. And I think there's too much of that in this world.

Disposability And Psychological Safety

Maren 7:55

And that goes back to when you look at it, you know, like you said, it's not just kids. We are developing a fixed mindset culture in our businesses, in our sports, in our adults, in our relationships, fostering it. And a leader who is, you know, just up, just dismiss them, just let them go, instead of looking at their own accountability, and maybe I gave them the wrong assignment. Maybe we're, you know, okay, so what's the process? And how do we need to adjust the process? Asking other questions instead of just dismiss them. We live in such a disposable society right now. People, things, stuff we buy, it's it's cheaply made, just let it go, right? It's just everything is disposable. And it does hurt my heart. And I think it hurts, I think it hurts most people's hearts, and they just are so numb they can't feel it.

Stephanie 8:59

Well, and when you keep throwing something out, you know, if you're a human being and you're watching somebody else just toss out relationships and items and stuff, you kind of ask yourself, okay, when am I gonna be tossed out? Because it so it creates an environment that doesn't feel safe. That's true. So then you create an adapted side, you know, type of personality so that you can feel at least you know, temporarily feel like you're safe and yeah, and protected. And I just think, you know, how what a waste.

Maren 9:36

Yeah, what a waste, and I think it it does go back to what you were saying at the beginning of do we feel better about ourselves because I tossed out the trash, quote unquote trash, meaning that other person who wasn't doing something so well. And do I want to live in that society where I look at other people as disposable, as like, to me, that's that lower mindset, the fixed mindset that says, well, you know what? Some it, I'll just find the answer elsewhere instead of hey, let's look at the process. And the process involves people, it involves being a true human being that values all other human beings and all other sentient life, really.

Process Awareness And Skill Building

Stephanie 10:30

Yeah, so I'm curious with those who are listening, you know, what is it that you value? What is important? Is it the outer results or is it the process? And like when someone says the process, I know when someone said that to me, I'm like, what do you mean the process? Like, I don't know. Like I snowboard. And so I, you know, I was going up on the chairlift with somebody and they were talking about which, you know, where to put your weight. I'm like, and they asked me, well, where do you put your weight? I'm like, I have no idea. I don't think about it. I just... I have a natural athletic ability, I always have, that I don't think about it. It just happens for me. But I can talk with you.

Maren 11:15

And you surf. Right.

Stephanie 11:16

Yeah, and I surf and I do gymnastics, did different things like that. But it's like... what happens though is that I don't develop a process. So for me to be able to help or serve another person, I can't because I'm in it. I don't know. And so why that's important is that I do want to make a difference in the world of lives. And so to be able to actually break it down without being in my head and thinking about it, because I think what happens, I think, I think, I think, I think, and I think and I stink, you know, is that we stink in thinking, then we get anxiety rather than just dropping into the heart and letting it just flow. But there's another level to up level it is to then now break it down and go, well, what is the process? Because if you don't know your process, you can't tweak it, you can't evolve it, you can't refine it. And when you look at excellence, no matter what it is, whether it's business or relationship or athletics or whatever it is that's your passion, if you don't know your process and you can't fine-tune it, you can't up level it. You get stuck,

Maren 12:25

you get stuck,

Stephanie 12:26

you get stuck. And we've got to take away the shame of looking at the process. Like, I seriously, when that person said on the chairlift, like, how did I'm like, I have no idea. First I laughed, and then and then I kind of also felt a little shame. I'm like, my God, I got a Phys-Ed degree, and I don't even know what my process is. I haven't got a clue. You know, like one of the young people said to me, he goes, oh, you do tricks on the snowboard. I said, No, my trick is to stay upright. That's my trick. Are you kidding me? I'm too old to fall. I don't want to fall anymore. You know, but that's the fixed mindset that I... that you know, so when you don't know your process, it leads you right down the path of a fixed mindset, which is gonna...

Maren 13:05

What's interesting is like you said, I don't want to fall. So when you're moving away from something,

Stephanie 13:11

yes,

Relaxation, Resilience, And Joy

Maren 13:12

and you don't know your process to not fall, yes, you get all tight and tense and anxious. And then if a fall does happen, that's when you get injured. Because you know, the one of the examples that I used to use when I was teaching dance, a lot of dancers, especially new dancers, get very tense and rigid and like they look like Frankenstein on the dance floor because they're trying, they're like dancing is something I have to do. I'm like, no, it's just walking to rhythm, right? So, anyway, one of the things I tell them is like when you're dancing with a partner, you can get hurt, you can get your shoulder pulled, or you can, you know, as I said, the best way to not get hurt is to relax. Because the thing that they, the kind of yucky study that they did was that drunk drivers are usually the ones who are not injured, yeah, because they don't tense up in a crash, right? They don't know any better, so that's going to your process thing of like you're going down the hill thinking, I don't want to fall, I don't want to fall, I don't want to fall. You're gonna get more and more tense, you will fall, and then you'll get hurt.

Stephanie 14:25

Exactly. Oh, exactly.

Maren 14:26

Knowing your going into knowing your process, okay. Well, if I don't want to fall, that actually means -here's the toward- I want to stay upright. What's my process for staying upright?

Stephanie 14:38

Yeah. And you know, as you start, I love how we're talking about this because my, all of a sudden my process is starting to come to realization. And I'm like, oh yeah, that's so true. Because I when I'm thinking too much, I get tense and I can feel myself not working with my momentum, I work against it.

Maren 15:01

Yes.

Stephanie 15:02

And so when I when I drop my arms and I relax my shoulders and I breathe deeply, there's part of my process, and I go, oh, I love this. I put a smile on my face, my neck doesn't hurt, my body's relaxed, my knees are slightly bent, so they are more resilient. We talk about resiliency. Now you're more resilient. And this is translatable and transferable into anything because the minute I get tight, maybe in business or in a relationship, is when I don't have full capacity. I don't have the full listening or seeing of the whole picture. I'm just dropped in trying to stay alive or stay, which narrows everything.

Maren 15:49

And if you go back to the kids with the test, they were the 'I don't want to fail, I don't want to fail, I don't want to fail, I don't want to fail', because they needed to get this right, this this high mark. That's what they were being judged on. Whereas the kids who are being judged on process, they're like, oh, I want to explain, I want to explore my process, I want to get curious. So all of their capacity was engaged, whereas the other kids, kind of like you were talking about, everything gets narrowed down, and now they have very little capacity to actually answer the questions, and that is what we do to ourselves in business, in life, and it robs the joy of everything, it's like there's no space for joy, and it becomes a perfectionist society, yeah.

Stephanie 16:41

So there's you know, and I'm gonna say this too, because we talked about space in one of our other podcasts of if there's no space, there's no joy, there's no there's no up-leveling, there's no curiosity, there's no wonder. So, how do we make space? Relax, let it go. Like it's a both hands, it's a big circle, right? It's like when you relax, you make space. When you make space, you can relax.

Maren 17:09

Curiosity makes space,

Stephanie 17:11

absolutely,

Maren 17:12

you know, going to your business example, instead of , 'yup, let them go', right? Now there's no space and it's gone. We're done. I'm gone, right? If you instead get curious and be like, oh, okay, well, that's the second time this mistake has happened. What's going on? Is it that there's something going on in that person's life, or I have them in the wrong position, or I gave them that direct like now we can get... yeah,

Excellence, Kindness, And True Competition

Stephanie 17:42

but what's my process too? Like, what is you know, what did I forget out? Maybe I didn't communicably put all the steps down, or I didn't break it down, or it's not about right or wrong, or good or bad, or like we... I really want to let go of this perfection. I love elegance and perfection, but to only only focus on perfectionism, and you know, it's a do or die something. That's not fun, that's not joyful. Like, you know, again, coming back to watching the Olympics, like watching the excellence of some of these athletes. So you're just like, oh my god, amazing, you know, like it's their life work. It is their life's work for like maybe 10, 20 seconds, some of them. And I don't want to see them get hurt, but at the same time, they put it all on the line, they do it. They're humans, it's somebody's child, it's somebody's partner, it's somebody's parent, it's like it could be us. Would you want somebody you know, putting bad juju out there on you? It's like where's the kindness in ourselves and for each other, which also can lead to excellence.

Maren 19:04

Yeah. And one of the things that I was thinking about when we're talking about this is that I would rather lose at a high level, meaning that someone pushed me because of their greatness, because they're like that top level, and I like and I lost to that person, then have that person not be there and I'm mucking around with people who are like not quite as great, and I'm the top dog. Woo-hoo, good for me. Like, okay, one, it just wasn't, you know, that high quality. I would rather lose at a higher quality.

Stephanie 19:45

Oh gosh, yeah. And when you look at environments, that's you know, we are who we hang out with, right? If you know, it's like if you're with a bunch of people who don't necessarily measure up to what your values are or what you... you're going to sink down to their level, absolutely. Versus you get to somebody else and you're like, wow, they've got really high standards, really beautiful, elegant articulation of life. They're gonna actually, they're gonna call you up. So it's not gonna be easy, and that's what happens even in in part in relationships, too. It's like I remember having even a boss who she was incredible. She she wasn't judgmental, she wasn't harsh, but she held herself at such a high level and with kindness, and with kindness, so she had space within herself to make mistakes and and to let others, but it's like I wanted to do better for her, I love her and she allowed me that space to grow, she pulled me up by her modeling that behavior.

Exemplars That Uplift The Field

Maren 20:57

So, not everybody has that amazing, right? Most people don't. And if you're in a situation where you don't have that, when you where you're actually stuck in the muck and the mire, and it's so easy to just say, Oh God, it feels like a slog uphill both ways, you know, just to have some sort of integrity, to have some sort of like uplift. Do you have any recommendations for that situation?

Stephanie 21:32

I think you know, find those models, find them, like search for them, whether they're from the past, meaning you know, they're exemplars from the past or looking at where they are right now in this future, like seek for them. There's that saying is like what you're seeking is also seeking you. So when you're when you're longing for something or something better or something more beautiful, looking for that higher excellence. Know that it's also looking for you too. So pay attention. Like the process of being open to it, keeping an open mind of like, hmm, is there something else? Ask the question. Let the question lead you. You know, is there a more beautiful way to do this?

Maren 22:16

Yeah.

Stephanie 22:17

Is there something that I'm being called beyond the results-oriented? But is there something that I'm being called to grow or learn or develop? And then bring me the person or the system or the place where I can actually receive it to see it.

Maren 22:34

So you might not in your place, you know, wherever in your sport, or you might be on a team where it's that team says, you know what, the way that we work is we take out the competition, let's cut them off at the knees, let's do this. And that's not who you want to be. And so you may be stuck in that position for now. And if you're looking around for the exemplars who have a higher level of integrity, who are like, no, I don't want to take out the competition at the knees. I want to beat them at a high level. Like, let's both get to the best we can be and let's compete there because then we're we're making each other better.

Stephanie 23:17

So when you up-level you up-level that field when you do that too. Not only are you up leveling yourself, you're actually up-leveling that field.

Maren 23:27

Yeah. So I mean the entire game, the whole game gets up.

Stephanie 23:32

Like I'm gonna say, like when I was a little girl, my exemplar was Nadia Komanich. Like I was a gymnast, and I was like, she called me to the possibility. I'm like, and perfect 10. Like, oh my God, oh my God. Like, I want that. And it was searching me and searching. Now that was 1976. I don't know if you're familiar with gymnastics, but you compare 1976 to 2026, we're not even on the same level on the same planet of what the body, the human body is capable of doing now. But Nadia Komanic up-leveled it, and then everyone from there up-leveled it, up-leveled, up-leveled, up-leveled. And if we do that across the board in our relationships, in our business, in our parenting, in ourselves, like finding those exemplars, it will guide you. And so, like I said, it doesn't even just up level you, it up-levels the whole field. It does. And that's how we make a difference in this world. That's how we lead a soulful leadership.

Finding Growth Inside Fixed Corners

Maren 24:36

And if you are in that situation where you're stuck in one of those places, finding exemplars outside of your realm, your immediate realm is very helpful. Another place to start is to start looking inside yourself for the places that are fixed. Because it's not an all or nothing. It's not like, well, this person has a fixed mindset person, and that person has a growth mindset person. In each and every one of us, there are places where we have growth mindsets and we're curious and we we look for the process, and we have fixed mindsets where we go and we shy back and we go, uh oh, I have to do this right. Yikes, oh, what does that mean? And now we're all, we're, we're all rigid and, right? So start looking for those. And instead of shaming them and saying, oh, that's the wrong part of me, look at it and say, that's the opportunity part of me. Because as you change yourself and you look at those things, different opportunities in the outer world will appear. Absolutely 100%.

Streams Of Care And Gentle Ambition

Stephanie 25:44

So as I'm hearing you say this, I think this is really fun to kind of play with because what I'm hearing too is like it isn't an all or nothing. It's not just you're either fixed or you're growth. And if you look at your life, there are certain areas of your life that you go, oh, I would love to be better in these areas. You know, maybe it's better at health, maybe it's better at relationship, maybe it's better at finances, maybe it's better at, I don't know, um your business, whatever it might be. And then there's other areas that you go, yeah, I don't care if I'm not a good cook. I just don't care. I know I should be better, but I don't care. Right. So what I'm suggesting is that look at where you care, like what matters to you. And those are streams. Think of like a stream all coming together into a river that moves to the ocean. Like these are all streams that feed you. And instead of just looking at one stream, look at all the ones that feed you. And what would be an exemplar or a role model in each one of those areas that would lead you up leveled and play with it and allow yourself to be kind with yourself because I always say be kind with the with... be kind with the self that you're becoming because you haven't become that person yet. You're in the making. So be gentle with yourself. That doesn't mean, oh, that's enough, honey. You should just sit down and not do anything. I'm not saying that. You say when you really make a big mistake, you go, Wow, look at you go. Good job. That took a lot of courage. You okay? You're doing okay. Do you need a hug? All right, let's try it again. Why don't we do this differently? Like be playful with it. Yeah, and find those areas because what you're going to be doing when you do that is that you will be inspiring so many people around you, and you'll be up leveling those fields indirectly and directly.

Maren 27:45

I love that. I love the doing it playfully. I think is the most important thing. Being kind and doing it playfully. So thanks for that.

Stephanie 27:56

Fun. And I'd love to hear from them. Like, what have they done?

Maren 27:59

I would love to.

Stephanie 28:02

Yeah. You know, what do you do? What do you do? What areas do you want to grow in? What areas do you want to level up? And what like I often say is like, you know, look out to the world. If you say, oh, we're really a hot mess in this area in the world, that might be an indication of where you might have a piece to up-level yourself. It's really fun to play with that. I said that to a young person the other day. You know, like if you look out to the world, you know what? What if you were to allow yourself to be critical and judgmental, which is this was a young person, they're like 14, they're really hot on the judgmental and the criticism. Then and I said, you know, what's wrong with the world? And I said, that may be your unique fingerprint to be able to up level. So what is what would your solution be? And how what kind of process and skill levels would you develop to be able to do that?

Maren 28:56

Maybe yours to do. That's fun, especially for a young person and even for an older person, like any age, to step into that and start playing with that. Powerful stuff.

Turning Critique Into Contribution

Stephanie 29:08

Yeah. So I want to hear from from you out there. Like, what are you doing? Yeah, like what does the world need? What where does it need to be up leveled? And you know what is your process to help with that? What are you doing? I'd love to hear from you. Yeah. Tell us.

Maren 29:28

Tell us. You can find us on LinkedIn and Facebook and on YouTube, all under Soulful Leaders, and /or you can just email us. We've got a couple different emails. I'll put them in the show notes. That's easier. It's in https://tslp.life/ which is one of our websites, and the other one is at www.TheSoulfulLeaderPodcast.com But you can find us here every other week at www.TheSoulfulLeaderPodcast.com. And we will see you in two weeks. Thanks for joining us.

Stephanie 30:08

And that wraps up another episode of The Soulful Leader Podcast with your hosts, Stephanie Allen and Maren Oslac.

Maren 30:16

Thank you for listening. If you'd like to dive deeper, head over to our website at www.TheSoulfulLeaderPodcast.com.

Stephanie 30:25

Until next time...