Stoicism, Death, & Authenticity in Clinical Practice w/ Kristen Poppe, LCMHC

In this episode, Tripp and Marcus are joined by Kristen Poppe for a deep dive into the philosophy of Stoicism and its relevance in modern life. The conversation touches on the resurgence of Stoicism, the distinction between self-improvement and therapeutic work, and the challenges of holding space in therapy. The trio also discusses the weight of identity, the inevitability of death, and the role of authenticity in leadership and life. This candid conversation offers listeners a blend of philosophical insights and practical reflections, making it a thought-provoking episode for anyone interested in mental health, personal growth, and the human condition.

Key Points:

• Stoicism: The resurgence and accessibility of Stoicism in today's world.
• Identity and Therapy: Balancing the therapist's role with authenticity.
• Death and Authenticity: How conversations about death can deepen human connection.
• Leadership: The pressures and responsibilities of leading with integrity and humanity.

About Flourish by Advaita Health

Flourish by Advaita Health explores how people, providers, and communities move from suffering to flourishing. Each episode weaves together perspectives from healthcare, wellness, and human experience — from the science of mental and physical health to the art of living well.

Advaita Health is a North Carolina–based behavioral health organization dedicated to supporting whole-person flourishing. Learn more about our work and clinical services below.

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Transcript

Kristen Poppe (00:00.647)
Okay. Well, they were good.

Tripp Johnson (00:04.554)
We're good. Actual recording is in higher quality, hopefully.

Kristen, welcome to Open Source Health.

Kristen Poppe (00:15.544)
Thank you. What a nice introduction. This is actually great that this happened because this has all been a test. What is in our control and what's out of our control with stoicism.

Tripp Johnson (00:19.701)
Yeah.

Tripp Johnson (00:30.131)
Isn't that beautiful?

Tripp Johnson (00:37.598)
I don't even know how this topic was really broached, but I think Marcus is probably even more equipped to talk about Aristotelian stuff and stoicism. I'm more of a purer message to me. I'm kind of like a pop stoic, like a Ryan Holiday stoic, probably. Not like a real Marcus Aurelius type, but I'll fake the funk.

Kristen Poppe (01:00.824)
Mm, yeah.

Marcus Shumate (01:06.97)
Yeah, that's kind of Buddhism with an edge. It's part of like you're kind of an edgy guy. All right, you have a backwards hat and stuff.

Kristen Poppe (01:07.981)
Yeah.

Kristen Poppe (01:14.018)
That just screams edge.

Tripp Johnson (01:14.657)
Yeah, I mean...

Stoicism is, you know, Buddhism without the fundamental recognition that there is no self.

Marcus Shumate (01:19.444)
Yeah.

Tripp Johnson (01:30.678)
which isn't very useful.

Kristen Poppe (01:33.214)
I am in, actually I lean more towards Marcus. I like Ryan Holiday, but I definitely lean more into the older kind of doctrines of it. Epictetus, yeah. I don't know, think, mean, well, this is the one thing I had to ask about it was this has been around for a super long time, obviously. And I sent you over that question, Tripp, but.

Marcus Shumate (01:45.31)
Interesting.

Marcus Shumate (01:56.328)
-huh.

Kristen Poppe (02:01.774)
obviously Marcus, too, I'm gonna like, it has come back, resurged. And it's kind of like a hot topic now. Definitely useful for therapists because it's so similar to so many modalities already. But I don't know, what do y 'all, why do you think it's come back? Why are we now? And I think I sent this to you, Tripp, in like 2019. That's kind of when it, the...

Marcus Shumate (02:18.963)
Okay.

Kristen Poppe (02:30.924)
like books and stuff skyrocketed in prices and just people. I don't know. What do y 'all think?

Marcus Shumate (02:31.551)
Right.

Marcus Shumate (02:38.47)
some thoughts on this actually. Because it's readily accessible, right? Like it's not something that doesn't make sense on the immediate surface. It's immediately graspable and applicable, right? Like you don't have to have some sort of advanced training in the language of therapy or self -care or something like that. It's just not weird.

Right? Like it's not weird sounding. I think a lot of gatekeeping to therapy stuff and applying it is because the language ends up being sort of like off putting or weird or sort of esoteric and kind of divorced from like day to day life versus stoicism. But, know, we've mentioned holiday, but you could pick up a Ryan Holiday book right now and you're probably going to get something out of it that you're to start applying immediately.

And it stands the test of time, right? Like it's not this, it's not something that's even though there's been this giant resurgence, it's not this thing that's been, you know, in and out of style. It's held pretty steady and it doesn't require some sort of advanced training to understand or like I said, begin to apply.

Kristen Poppe (03:38.626)
Mm -hmm.

Kristen Poppe (04:00.098)
Did it ever go away? Is that what you're saying, Marcus?

Marcus Shumate (04:02.802)
Yeah, I'm sort of saying like, don't think that it ever necessarily went away, but I think the, you know, I, so there's been this giant push right towards raising mental health awareness, this sort of general social movement around like how to take care of your own mind. And I think what I'm sort of suggesting, you know, from a completely non data driven perspective or objective, just pure conjecture, right? Like just perfect for podcast fodder, is.

I think it's because readily accessible. so with the social media, podcasts, any of that sort of stuff, right? Like just you take something that's useful and people want, and you make it very accessible, like people are to run with it. So I think there's some degree of that, right? Like would be my guess.

Marcus Shumate (04:58.218)
How about you? What do you guys think?

Tripp Johnson (04:58.739)
Well, back, yeah, what do you why do you think it had a resurgence? Do you have a hypothesis?

Kristen Poppe (05:06.382)
I mean, my immediate thought went to COVID because 2019, 2020, and I'm wondering if people were like, okay, this, like all we can do is be in our homes and, you know, we can't control what's going on out there because we're banished inside. what is some, and I mean, I don't know, I think whatever, people were like making sourdough loaves and all these different like.

Marcus Shumate (05:18.771)
you

Kristen Poppe (05:32.888)
fads that were going on. But I wonder if people were leaning into something, not like religious, so to speak, but something greater than them because we felt so powerless during that time. this definitely grounds you into you do have control and that's over yourself. So maybe people leaned into it. That I mean, I agree with you though, Marcus, like it never disappeared, so to speak, but the numbers were like super staggering, like

300 % increase in that time. Like that's really interesting. And I wonder if it's just, you know, with Ryan coming out and kind of reintroducing it, so to speak. I don't know. My mind went to the epidemic or because I was just, you know, pandemic of what are we, what are we grasping onto here? What is something that we can hold onto to get us through this? And it was kind of a collective, you know,

Like you said, those tools can be applied anytime in your life, at any place. That's my hypothesis.

Marcus Shumate (06:36.906)
Could you Hey, I'd be really curious to hear you riff on this just a little bit But you you mentioned the religious piece to it like it's not an overtly religious doctrine writer or dogma or philosophy so Would why bring up the word religious and that what's your thinking with that?

Kristen Poppe (06:58.402)
Well, I think, I mean, from a therapist perspective, it is certainly a topic that I've seen with folks with traumas, with a source of contention, and a lot of words can be triggering of involving various religions, Christianity, but, soicism to me,

Marcus Shumate (07:03.7)
Mm

Kristen Poppe (07:25.408)
it has more like pillars of life that aren't so rigid thinking or excuse me, like, I don't know, there's not really a backing to it like with the trauma that comes from the various other religions. This seems to be more in, you know, here's how to live your best life, but there's no, I mean, I haven't, it seems more like fluid, if that makes sense.

Marcus Shumate (07:41.727)
Yes.

Marcus Shumate (07:46.057)
Hmm.

Tripp Johnson (07:54.292)
Yeah, it's, I would say it's like it's more palatable. You don't have to accept anything that you, you don't have to make any leaps of faith to apply it in your life. Whereas a lot of times like religious doctrine, whether it's, you know, Western, you know, Judeo -Christian religions, you know, require a certain set of beliefs. And then similarly where like, I'm, you know, very informed by kind of Eastern traditions.

Marcus Shumate (07:54.676)
So.

Kristen Poppe (08:05.037)
Yes.

Tripp Johnson (08:21.564)
most of the Eastern traditions come with all sorts of weird stuff and baggage with it too. Whereas like Stoicism is just like, you don't need any pre -existing beliefs to kind of apply this and feel like it applies to you. So I, and I would also say that, you know, we're seeing an overall secularization of society in the West. And so people are probably looking for tools, you know, to that, that fit their worldview and that they

are coming with whatever background they have, but they want something that doesn't offend whatever background or, you know, it doesn't require adopting some new beliefs to put into action.

Kristen Poppe (09:01.9)
Mm -hmm.

Marcus Shumate (09:02.366)
Yeah. So I have some, a couple of thoughts on this actually that, cause I, I found it really curious that you went with, that you mentioned religion. And I think there was something to that. And I like what you're saying, Tripp, cause I'm thinking about that Sam Harris quote where he talks about, I can get all the bit something to the effect of I can get all the benefits of religion without having to divorce myself from reason or believe like wacky things. Like I can get all the benefits that come with religion without having to sort of adhere to some sort of.

belief system that doesn't map on to reality or my ability to perceive reality. And so one thing that I was thinking about, I had a really wonderful philosophy professor that was the guy that sort of exposed me to Platonic and Aristotelian philosophy. And I remember one time a student asked like whatever the intro course we were in, why was he spending so much time in the classics and not jumping into like more niche -y sort of like French existentialism and stuff like down the road?

Kristen Poppe (09:38.915)
Hmm.

Marcus Shumate (10:01.982)
And he said, he's like, because everything comes out of these, all of Western tradition is it sort of comes back to these classics, right? Like Necromachean Ethics, Plato's Republic, those sort of seminal texts. And his argument was essentially that it's really important to read the classics. And the reason it's really important is it allows us to partake in a human conversation that's span, that's transcended the experience of time.

And I would, you know, I would, I think I gear a little more towards trip, but I do have some affinity for Stoicism in a little more connection to it perhaps. But I actually do find that to be some, one of the things that's really appealing to me about it is it's sort of like allowing you to tap into this collective human experience where conversations have been going forever, right? Like when we die and this apocalypse happens or something and there's just cockroaches and we get back to.

humans eventually like we'll have some version of this like stoicism will still live on these classic conversations will still live on. And so in some sense, it allows you to tap into something that is bigger than yourself, right, like to the collective human experience without having to have this sort of baggage that religion has. I think that's kind of an interesting appeal to it that you you I think you kind of put your finger on it in way that's kind of cool.

Kristen Poppe (11:23.148)
I lean into that word to baggage. I connected to that a lot of stoicism to me is freeing. I mean, it's it it discusses reasons without this like revelation or these these components behind it. I don't know, it just gives you such a place of examining your impressions. Like it gives you kind of full autonomy over that without like you said that baggage. Yeah, I agree with that.

Marcus Shumate (11:31.806)
Mm.

Marcus Shumate (11:52.062)
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

Tripp Johnson (11:53.61)
Could you speak a little bit about your kind of clinical practice, what maybe brought you to becoming a clinician? And I'd like to lead that into, you know, kind of the difference between clinical work and this like the general self -improvement project and kind of draw a distinction between like when we can apply stoicism really well to meet some of our goals versus like when we might really need someone who's a, you know, a mental health professional.

and kind of what those differences are. So first question, just like what brought you to becoming a clinician?

Kristen Poppe (12:28.524)
Yeah, definitely will speak on the other components because there is a lot of overlap with CBT and ACT therapy. But clinician wise, I feel like I've lived many lives in sense of job and experience. So I used to work in tech. So I worked for corporate for a long time. And I worked at SAS for a little bit of time. And then

I think I may have had, was like a psychology class I took and it really piqued my interest in the sense of just human behavior. I love traveling, so kind of witnessing how people act, why they do the things they do, just learning more, being curious about their stories. But something, and this is kind where we can talk about that, like something bigger than me, whatever you wanna call it.

led me to doing more of like serving, like I wanna be there. Cause corporate, know, that's to me personally, it wasn't super fulfilling. So I worked at a homeless shelter. I made a really big shift. I was like, I just wanna do this, leaning into this. And that was transformative. That gave me perspective a hundred percent of, okay, my problems.

I mean, leading into a stoic quote is, you we suffer more in imagination than reality of, okay, reality here is that my life is actually really fine. Like I'm okay. But I worked alongside therapists there, not being licensed at that time. I got to know them and their work and I thought, you know what, this is something I really wanna do. I really wanna sit with people in their...

highest points, their lowest points of life, all points. And so, I don't know, one thing led to the other and I really leaned into the clinical work there and just being with people and went to school and whatnot. I love, and we can get into Aims practice, but one thing I really value is this kind of...

Kristen Poppe (14:41.376)
integrative care. So working alongside other providers has is paramount. Because we have to be a collective unit, it takes a village. And I think that this is my greater purpose is is being this clinician and serving. And that's something I want to do. It brings purpose and fulfillment to my life.

Kristen Poppe (15:06.328)
Second question, what was the second part of this?

Tripp Johnson (15:09.042)
I would be curious where the...

kind of where you draw maybe a somewhat arbitrary distinction, of course, between like, you know, therapeutic work versus just your general self -improvement type project, because it's one of those boundaries. Marcus and I have lots of kind of offline conversations, you know, just around like, we're all going through this human experience. And like, I just find it really interesting how we're all wired differently and we all have different experiences.

And so like, you know, the distinction between again, just engaging in normal kind of self development that you can either do on your own or, know, in a group of like minded people versus like, this is like a clinical, this is like a more clinical type issue. And not that they're again, they're not that there's a bright line distinction, but, know, I think like tools, I'm a big Alan Watts fan. He wrote a book like psychotherapy, East and West.

And part of the premise of that book is kind of just that, know, Eastern traditions have historically used the more spiritual religious as a self -improvement project and kind of its own form of psychotherapy. Again, like, as you mentioned, a lot of the roots of CBT, ACT, can really trace because of the, I mean, universal wisdom, regardless of who came up with it is kind of similar.

So you can trace a lot of things to stoicism or to, you know, mindfulness practices. But yeah, where's kind of like in your mind, the line between the clinical side versus just the normal self development side.

Kristen Poppe (16:53.966)
Well, I've always been, like, I love this work, but I've made the distinction that therapy is what I do. It's not who I am. Because you can begin to make that your worth of, okay, if I...

whatever, if this session did not go well or whatever it is, then you attach yourself to that and it internalizes. So I think with self growth, I think I really try to have a distinction there of I am someone who always, I'm tenacious. I never wanna be complacent of like, know, this is just good enough. But in terms of like clinical work, I think I just.

want to meet people where they're at and not, does it have to be, that's again, kind of the stoic practice of does it have to be me? Like let me examine my impression on this. Giving someone back the autonomy to live their life. But no, I think self growth is a great topic and there is a distinction there. And I wonder too, this can be a question kind of,

going back to you as a leader of what does that look like, that distinction? Because I know that a lot of times in our society, we really attach growth directly to, I our jobs are important. They're a big part of our life. Do you attach, what's your outside life look like in terms of self growth? And does that come into this job, this work?

Tripp Johnson (18:33.142)
Yeah. wow. How much time we got? So I have historically, well, from a well, can of worms here, self growth, like I got super interested in this, like my kind of story was was very much about the fact that I woke up when I was, you know, 26 or 27 and was like, I got to get my shit together.

Marcus Shumate (18:34.942)
Hahaha

Tripp Johnson (19:00.278)
And so I embarked on like a very deliberate like journey in like, what kind of person do I want to become? And I actually kind of had that conflict to me, I think they're actually two separate projects. There's like the personal development project, which is largely about attainment, even from like a stoic perspective, it's what you do to attain whatever freedom you have and control over your environment.

right, but it is you in the world having control. And then I draw the distinction between like the ultimate project of like self -realization, which is really recognizing that we're all connected and the subjective feeling of separateness doesn't always have to be there in the way that we think it is. So for a long time, I viewed that as one project. And now,

I mean, I think integrating those two projects is a big piece of it. But I mean, quite frankly, the only reason, you when we started Green Hill, I was in law school and trying to figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up. And I knew I wanted to have an impact. And for me, especially just my experience being, I thought it was really cool and wanted to help, you know, young guys who...

had the same set of challenges around substance use and mental health. And I think like just figuring out how to, you know, be a man in the world and me, my experience, like trying to be a man in the world meant like being a college athlete, being an army ranger and going to war. And the fact that like, that did not fill my cup, right? So to speak that I then had to go on this other self development and self realization.

journey. And then what could be cooler? Like I always say, I'd probably run a cult if I could, and it would be some weird spiritual thing. And if not that, like it would just be run like a non culty, like retreat center, where we really got to do this self development work. So really, like that that is just fascinated with me. And like, how do we build lives of meaning and purpose? And so like, I just feel like

Kristen Poppe (21:04.536)
Yeah, wellness.

Tripp Johnson (21:19.246)
so grateful that that's kind of like, even if I've gone corporate in the sense that like, I don't do the direct, you know, kind of client patient work. Like, how cool is it to try and build a system that honors like the patient and the providers and, everyone we come into contact with.

Kristen Poppe (21:37.15)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Does self -growth to you mean like always, you know, striving or being a better version of yourself than where you were?

Tripp Johnson (21:50.262)
So I'm going to go back to, feel like you sent something that made me think living in accordance. know, one of the questions you sent me was what does living in accordance to nature mean to you personally? So it's a really interesting, mean, I think it's always about, you know, getting better. don't, I don't love the, means like we were worse before, right? Like I'd like to think we're all just evolving. And part of, for me though, that has been because I,

I'm a competitive person. I'm type A. Like I want to see the world become the way that I think it should be more. And for a long time, I tried to like tamp that down. Like, there is no better. There is just what is and kind of worried that I was like too competitive or trying to exert my will on the world. But part of my nature might actually just be that like.

I'm going to want to exert my will. I'm going to want to see what's possible. So really kind of integrating again this idea that we can strive to be better while being really grateful and appreciative of what we've already got. So that's how I kind of reconcile that right now.

Kristen Poppe (23:01.614)
Yeah, I appreciate that. I agree with you. I think that word better does have a connotation that what we're doing now doesn't have as much merit as it will. But I guess in terms of clinical work, there are various skills that you become more comfortable with and whatnot down the road. know, clinician of 20 years may look different than someone six months out of school, but it doesn't mean that that's where I want to be mindful of it.

not better. And this this place someone's in just has much worth as then because it's a it's a it's a stepping stone. And you can look back on that have compassion to say we have to start somewhere. I think that's where that comparison to comes in with the self judgment. And, you know, you in law school, that's that's a very different place. It wasn't worse. It's just it is it is what it was. And I think

Marcus Shumate (23:48.692)
Yeah.

Kristen Poppe (23:59.266)
That's where I, I know a lot of therapists have this imposter syndrome of I could be better, I could be doing this. And I really try to challenge that of it's start where you are. It's okay wherever you are. But I know that's a big, big piece of therapy is that.

Marcus Shumate (24:18.25)
You said something earlier, I'm going to kind of come back to, talked about this idea of identity as a therapist and like a really identifying as a therapist and sort of having this, this hard line between the practice of being a therapist and then, you know, your other life, right? Like your, sense of wellbeing isn't tied to being a therapist. And so I, I,

think there's a duality there or like a tension that therapists have to abide in or maybe should be this maybe beneficial be cognizant and mindful of. So like on the one hand you have, right? Like being a therapist is just, it's a job. It's a profession like anything else, right? Like your identity shouldn't be too tied to it. It's problematic if it is too tied to it. And then this idea of like,

everything is just experience, right? Like I can't help but bring in any sort of experiences I have, right? Like I, in the example I'll give, because people that practice Jiu -Jitsu are just like cross -fetters or vegans, they can't help but talk.

Kristen Poppe (25:34.604)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Marcus Shumate (25:35.466)
But yeah, it's interesting to me, right?

Tripp Johnson (25:41.575)
Kristen, sorry, Kristen, you know he plays guitar as well. Just, sorry.

Marcus Shumate (25:46.383)
yeah, yeah, I'm s - Yeah.

Kristen Poppe (25:49.472)
Dude, I can't. is... Whoa.

Tripp Johnson (25:51.093)
Hahaha!

Marcus Shumate (25:51.69)
I know it's see, there's like concert posters in the back and everything. I'm touching aggressively white dude. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Strategically. Incrementally, I'm going to move the guitar into it. No, the, so the thing about Blake Jujitsu, he's talked about this with yoga and stuff too, right? Like, I,

Kristen Poppe (25:56.502)
I see that. Yep. Placed very nicely directly behind you.

Yeah.

Kristen Poppe (26:09.622)
Yeah.

Kristen Poppe (26:19.256)
Yeah, yeah, totally.

Marcus Shumate (26:21.598)
I think a lot of like my contemplative practices, my meditation practices inform how I approach like my fear and anxieties and stuff on the mat. What that looks like in matches. I think that influences how I approach tackling new tasks that approached how like everything is just experience, right? Like everything is just life and experience. and at the same time, I think there is some, there's an interesting piece to what you're describing that I think is probably necessary. It's like there, you have to kind of approach being a therapist.

like a job or else I think you become ineffective, right? Like you start dealing with the identity of a therapist. So now you have three people in the room, right? Like you have your quote unquote authentic self, the client that's in front of you, and then the perception of what a therapist, like your identity and attachment to a therapist. And so I think those are like three weird things to be juggling versus

you know, can I just bring myself into this and a client? I'd be curious if you have any thoughts on that, you know, the sitting and abiding in that tension between those two things.

Kristen Poppe (27:32.014)
That's so, this could be a whole nother topic for another time, but like the selves, like adaptive performing, because there is, I guess there is a performance, so to speak. don't know, like we put our hats on and we go to work. I mean, I'm a different person sometimes with people in session, but I do try to be authentic. I like that you mentioned the three people. That's really interesting. I'm going to think more on that later. But 1000 % and what I was alluding to was really if I

Marcus Shumate (27:34.697)
Yeah, yeah.

Marcus Shumate (27:39.156)
Mm

Marcus Shumate (27:49.097)
Right.

Kristen Poppe (28:02.508)
Like, because you were saying maybe on the mat or kind of performance, if we place our worth in that, what does that mean if we have not, you know, a less than stellar experience? It can just be an experience. I think it's the judgment we assign to it. So, you know, there's been sessions though where I've had with clients and I get wrapped up in this, okay, I'm the therapist here. You know, I should have insight in all these.

this distorted thoughts of a should should, but coming back and gaining perspective of, okay, bottom line is they are sharing their most vulnerable pieces with me right now. And all I need to do is be here and show up and hold space and kind of come back. And that's it. That's all that's really there. Everything else will come in, whatever modality, whatever all this stuff is. But I think that, and then,

At the end of the day, someone once told me that they do this mindful act where they, you know, they take, they literally will put their hand up and like take off whatever hat it is and like toss it away and say, I'm done for the day. That's it. Because that's where therapy is so strange that it is a job, but you fall into those patterns with family and friends and they're, you know, well, you're a therapist, let's talk. And you have to be mindful to say, you know what?

I can't be that for you. The lines get really blurred there as opposed to if you're, I don't know, an accountant or something. I mean, guess someone can come to you be like, hey, do my taxes? I don't know. But it's so much more, it's a really tricky line you got to be mindful of.

Marcus Shumate (29:32.948)
Right. Yeah.

Tripp Johnson (29:41.716)
Thanks.

Marcus Shumate (29:50.506)
I just had something that's popped into my head and I'd love to hear you maybe process it in the moment or talk about it. But there's this great essay that I got exposed to from a psychoanalyst and always butchers first name because I'm from Eastern North Carolina and we didn't learn how to speak well. So, but I can usually get his last name, but beyond. And he wrote this essay called On Memory and Desire and his essential contention was

that the role of an analyst and by proxy, guess, therapist is to have no memory or no desire for the client or the patient, whatever you prefer. So the idea was like, essentially that you show up to every session completely new. I don't, think maybe this is just what you use the word hold like holding space. And that's something that I hear a lot of therapists say. It's always a frustrating one for me.

because I think most people tend to say it without the level of depth and consideration that you're sort of offering. And so I'm like, I'm actually really curious to maybe hear you play around with that a little bit. Maybe I don't know that it explicitly ties to Stoicism, but I am kind of curious with any thoughts that you have on that. Like this idea that you stand up in a set, you come to a session and there's no memory, no desire for the patient. You're just, you're present and holding space.

It does connect to stelecysm in some sort of way in your head.

Kristen Poppe (31:21.868)
Yeah, that's a really interesting thought. I hear you and I realize as I said that, and like that's such a buzz phrase of holding space. What does that mean? And I'll speak to your point, but I do want to, for me personally, what that means is really what you were just saying is respecting whatever this person comes in with and not having an opinion coming in or any

thoughts and like you were saying earlier from that essay is, know, I guess it's stating like preconceived feelings or bringing an agenda in, you're just sitting there in true space and listening to whatever comes up and not being attached and just being present. I think holding space means being truly present because, and that's where,

bringing it back to stoicism, one of the really helpful kind of quotes I live by is, I can choose to not have an opinion on this, because we can kind of get wrapped up in and just saying it is, it's here. But as I'm saying that now, I realize that yeah, lot of maybe folks don't recognize the depth or weight of what that really means. It's hard to whatever we want to say hold space because I think

Marcus Shumate (32:29.94)
Yeah

Kristen Poppe (32:48.0)
I've learned to do this early on and mitigate this is coming in and wanting to solve the problem. Much like you, Tripp, I can lean into that type A of like, what's going on? Let's figure it out. But holding space is saying, maybe we can't resolve this and that's okay. It just is right now. Let's just let it be. And that's again, stoicism, letting go of control. What can I just let this be? I mean, I'm someone who wants to do that. I see something and let's...

Let's tackle it. That's a really hard thing to do though, is to lean into that. Letting go of that resolve. Yeah.

Marcus Shumate (33:22.911)
Right.

Marcus Shumate (33:27.006)
I, something just dawned on me that I think is, is kind of interesting. at least to me, it is probably no one else or something or some weird points that I'm connecting that aren't nearly connected. I'm going back to this idea of, you talked about the therapist identity, coming in with a therapist identity and like, you know, job, not job, that sort of stuff. But in this idea that when you do that, right, like the, and this is tied to some of that non -dualism.

Like the sense of self or identity that is the, arguably I think the root of a lot of suffering, right? We attached this idea that I am something around this sort of fixed identity. And so when you're describing this sort of thing, right? Like you come into a session, you abandon this sense of, have to fix this. I'm a therapist now. That's my identity. That's who I am.

And so I find it interesting because when you do that, right, like you, suddenly remove your presentness from the, from the session because you've now stepped in and you're now attached to this idea of this, of this like representation of a therapist. I have to be a therapist in this moment. And so now you're not present. You're now attached to the idea of therapists. And so you're now filtering the present experience through that versus

what you're describing, I think, right? Like just this idea of your presentness and divorcing your identity from that sense.

Kristen Poppe (34:55.767)
Yeah.

Kristen Poppe (35:01.492)
That's a really good point. think there's obviously appropriate behaviors to have as a clinician, but I think when I hold myself to that thought, I do lose authenticity of me as a human. know, like a therapist should sit a certain way or like be very kind of like, okay, what does that, how does it feel? You know what I mean? Like, okay, very, and first off, like,

Marcus Shumate (35:24.232)
Yeah.

Kristen Poppe (35:28.896)
me as a person, I want to sit on the floor if I could. And sometimes we have, I've met clients where they're at. That's been beneficial for me because then you're right, I'm not connecting to me. I'm assigning myself this idea of what I should be doing, what falls under the umbrella of that therapist, so to speak. Is that what you were leaning into, Marcus? A little bit.

Tripp Johnson (35:33.92)
You can.

Marcus Shumate (35:55.134)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Tripp Johnson (35:58.102)
And then isn't there one, I always find this is like the hardest one. You you take that one step further. So if you're trying not to be a therapist, now you're trying not to be not to, you know, a therapist. And so it's kind of like one of those, you know, like how do you describe emptiness? And it's like, well, there's nothing in it. And without describing, you know, so you kind of, so there is this, and I do think there's like a...

Marcus Shumate (36:09.576)
Yeah.

Kristen Poppe (36:20.461)
Yeah.

Tripp Johnson (36:23.988)
you cannot reconcile these with language, but you can with experience. that authentic piece, and when we're really in that state, you just kind of are. There's not trying to be or trying not to be something, which I think is like often like the amateur, like for me, at least on the, you know, maybe on the more contemplative side of things.

Kristen Poppe (36:30.498)
Mm

Marcus Shumate (36:37.105)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kristen Poppe (36:37.932)
Mm -hmm.

Tripp Johnson (36:46.442)
You know, like there was a, let me be, I'm gonna be really equanimous. I mean, you know, I'm not gonna let anything bother me. And then I'm just trying really hard not to let anything bother me. And it's like, wait, that wasn't the point either. Like, to be here trying, I'm just supposed to be.

Marcus Shumate (36:59.485)
Right?

Kristen Poppe (37:00.502)
Whoa.

Marcus Shumate (37:04.243)
Yeah.

Kristen Poppe (37:04.364)
Yes. Yes. this just made me think too, and you know, we, this is our society, but whenever someone's like, you know, well, I don't know. It's more to ask all of us. Who are you? How would we answer? Like what, or what do you do? That's the very first question. What do you do? And I, and I, yes. No, no. And I, yeah. And I hate that.

Marcus Shumate (37:19.773)
Yeah.

Tripp Johnson (37:26.2)
In the US it is, not everywhere else though, right? Like that's one of the interesting, yeah.

Kristen Poppe (37:33.708)
I don't want to have to say I'm a therapist. Like I'm so there's so many other domains. There's something to think about. I don't know. I always think about.

Marcus Shumate (37:35.722)
Right.

Tripp Johnson (37:41.972)
Yeah, what? Yeah, tell it.

Marcus Shumate (37:43.508)
And if you don't answer the question, you are going to look like a jerk, like a weirdo, right? Like it's like, how are you doing today? Well, let me tell you how I'm actually doing. Like that's, that was not the reason I asked that question. Yeah. Yeah. Please just let me pay you.

Kristen Poppe (37:49.516)
Yeah, like what do you, why?

Tripp Johnson (37:51.455)
What?

Kristen Poppe (37:56.172)
That's not right. First, that's where you went wrong.

Tripp Johnson (38:01.418)
But I that's where we connected originally though, Chris. I mean, I think we were talking in the hallway with Caroline about death, right? Like, I mean, just a very real topic. And I look back on those things as these like little mini collisions of like real authenticity that I, you know, I hope we're like just bringing more of into the world because it's really like those moments where like no one was trying to be anything. And we were talking about like the most

Kristen Poppe (38:03.266)
you

Kristen Poppe (38:10.475)
Yeah.

Tripp Johnson (38:30.748)
serious stuff, right? imaginable. think like we both of us had some sort of death of a friend or family in the last week. And yeah, I mean, I think about like, that is like, really the magic of like, community and connection, which is nothing to do with stoicism necessarily, or actual clinical work. But like, those are the moments that I'm like, yeah, like, we're really doing the thing, especially like, as a as a culture, like,

just to be able to walk down the hall and have like that little moment in the middle of the day is like very refreshing, at least, you know, for me.

Kristen Poppe (39:07.446)
Likewise, no, me too. I think I really resonate with that. I mean, I was present there. I wasn't trying to say something that would, I don't know, please, you or Caroline, or I was just showing up. And afterwards I was like, that was cool. That doesn't typically happen because no one wants to talk about death. Nobody wants to talk about, you know I mean? Of like, let's just face this, it's gonna happen.

Tripp Johnson (39:22.954)
Mm -hmm.

Marcus Shumate (39:30.093)
I'm

Kristen Poppe (39:37.462)
I don't know. it fair to say it's a taboo topic? I don't know. People are like, nope. Like you said, Marcus, how are you? Great. Even though we couldn't be worse.

Marcus Shumate (39:46.75)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kristen Poppe (39:49.314)
But that is what makes community, think. There's not this like power shift or trying to be in this performance self. You are just authentically there. Those are really great. Yeah.

Marcus Shumate (40:05.31)
I like that phrase. Perform itself. That's a good, yeah.

Tripp Johnson (40:09.374)
I've got a question for you. Why, why, you know, I've, I have run into, especially over the last few years, like I always kind of forget that like I'm the CEO of a company and, what that often shows up as is like, people are often like somewhat intimidated of me just by nature of my position. And you had none of that. You just talk shit to me like date, like minute one, and it was awesome and refreshing.

And obviously that's part of your personal style. Not everyone's going to approach it the same way, but it was really cool to me. It's been, I don't know you that well, but it's just been, it's been very refreshing to talk as a person, not in some hierarchy kind of feeling. And so I wonder like, about, if you have any insight into your own psychology around that.

Kristen Poppe (41:00.982)
I appreciate you saying that. I honestly, well, I think it is my personality, but you also, I mean, I'm sure Marcus can offer some sassy comment, but you don't, when I've met you in the hallway, whatever, no, the very first time I met you, I told you that you sent me a phishing email and...

Tripp Johnson (41:15.147)
Hahaha

Marcus Shumate (41:16.115)
haha

Tripp Johnson (41:27.669)
Mm

Kristen Poppe (41:30.762)
Marcus, it was urgent. Message me right now. And I was like, god, I'm in trouble. And I went to, but I don't know. I've worked, like I said earlier, corporate offices where there is this power differential and you will only email me or I'm not available at this point. But you were a person and you broke down that barrier for me, at least, of accessibility.

Marcus Shumate (41:36.553)
Yeah.

Kristen Poppe (42:00.238)
I don't know, just it was refreshing to talk to you as that. Cause I know that CEO has a lot of behind that, those three letters. But I think it was your humaneness, which made it refreshing. And I don't know if the word safe space is appropriate, but maybe just comfortable. But I don't know, I think this sounds like I'm advertising aim, but you really do live up to.

Tripp Johnson (42:18.559)
Yeah.

Kristen Poppe (42:28.482)
the pillars, I think of this in the terms of community. Like you talking to me in the hallway at that time was really refreshing because you weren't just like throwing out buzzwords of, we value integrity and groundedness. Like really you do, you kind of live by those. I don't know, I didn't really even consider what you said until just now. And I guess it's interesting, I've, and I guess the reason why I'm so comfortable with

conversing with you and just the overall nature of it is because of that. It's kind of, it is what it is. We're all gonna die. At the end of the day, CEO, and I don't wanna, you know, it's CEO and you have a big role and you have wonderful amounts of experience and certainly tackle things I could never with regard to relations and just, you know, forming a

Tripp Johnson (43:08.906)
Yeah.

Kristen Poppe (43:26.36)
community in a big branch that is flourishing. mean, all these openings we have and this incredible opening of Chapel Hill, like those are things that are remarkable. But at the end of the day, think, and I don't want to be, you know, I do strip that title in the sense of you, you're human. And that's what you are at the end of the day. And I think you exhibit that and it's really refreshing.

You come around the building and you support us. And it's not this scary CEO that I think we're used to in this society of big glass walls and a big desk and just this big power differential. I don't get that.

Tripp Johnson (44:15.208)
Yeah, it's interesting because I think some people do and it's always been like to me, it's the most confusing thing to me is when people experience that differential because like I don't like again, like the reason I asked the question is because you know, as as we've grown, especially, you know, I think that does just naturally come up sometimes for people like again, just the, you know, again, power dynamics are inherently there in any sort of hierarchy. Yeah, I was just curious. So

Kristen Poppe (44:23.074)
Really.

Tripp Johnson (44:44.134)
I mean, I appreciate the answer. feel like great about myself. think we should wrap now, but, no, I, I, I do wonder, like, I think that's, you know, like, that's one of the things I, like when Marcus and I talk about, growth and like what we want to accomplish and like, even like our vision, you know, and, what, I want the organization to accomplish long -term to me, it's really important. Like none of it matters if we don't have those moments in the hallway. Like there's this big societal change, like I hope to have some.

role in effectuating, but like at the end of the day, the only like the real change is going to be these one -on -one interactions. So if we're not doing that right, like it's very unlikely we're going to have whatever change in the world that we want to see. yeah, like that's, that's one of the things that like I try and, especially like now trying to open Chapel Hill, there's a ton going on and how can I have more of those good collisions with people? those authentic collisions.

Kristen Poppe (45:40.756)
Absolutely. I think you, and Marcus too, and this company overall, you value thoughts regardless of what title or position you have, even this space right now, letting me be in this moment and speaking. I think in corporations, there is a food chain and it's like, well, this person

Maybe some CEOs never see their employees. They don't know who this person is because they don't make time, but you do. And I think you see the value in people as them and less of their job title, essentially. I think so, yeah.

Tripp Johnson (46:20.438)
I hope so. Yeah.

Marcus Shumate (46:24.233)
think you brought up a cool point about death though. Like you mentioned that earlier, like the idea of death, right? Like no one wants to talk about it, but it's in some sense, it's like the most humanizing thing, right? And like CEO, like all the way down through anything, right? Like the great equalizers, we're all going to die.

Kristen Poppe (46:43.96)
great equalizer. Absolutely.

Marcus Shumate (46:45.522)
Yeah, nobody's making it out of the thing alive.

Tripp Johnson (46:50.976)
Do you talk about death at home, Kristen? this like a normal topic?

Kristen Poppe (46:57.28)
Yeah, it is. It's not like, you know, just, yeah. My partner is one who really leaned into stoicism first, and then I kind of jumped in. And I mean, he brings it up more than I do. And there are times when the thought of it really gets me, you know, envisioning this. What is this? There's this, again, leaning into there's a quote of like, hug.

Marcus Shumate (47:01.502)
Yeah.

Tripp Johnson (47:01.574)
Yeah.

Tripp Johnson (47:08.577)
cool.

Marcus Shumate (47:09.951)
Nice.

Kristen Poppe (47:23.936)
Is it like hug your wife, she's borrowed or something like that. But it's a thought of, you know, this is all temporary. And not that he like reminds me of, hey, remember, this is all gonna go away. But you know, it just gives you, we do, we talk about it in the sense of like, you know, like, we really try to be present with each other and acknowledge, you know, let's be here now. It doesn't matter later down the line, whatever. Let's be here. It's really good perspective.

Tripp Johnson (47:27.285)
Mmm.

Tripp Johnson (47:31.456)
Mm

Marcus Shumate (47:35.039)
Bye.

Tripp Johnson (47:43.946)
Mm

Kristen Poppe (47:54.092)
I don't know. What about y 'all? Is this something you talk about?

Tripp Johnson (47:58.014)
Depends on who so death is one of my favorite topics. My wife hates it. She comes from, you know, Catholic family and like everyone's like very concerned about purgatory or hell. And then with my other family, they're just like, look, like euthanasia is legal in Oregon, like we got some property there. Like you just tell us when it's time. Send us with the

you know, send us with some feel good drugs and we'll ride off into the sunset. So I live in a very bifurcated death talk family.

Kristen Poppe (48:33.603)
That's such a stark difference. No, there's true for me. There's some members of my family. We're just not acknowledging it. We're not acknowledging it. We just will not talk about it. I'm definitely Eileen Morton's that sometimes depending on who it is. But I recognize the true importance of it. You know, I think the more we talk about it, the more we whatever expose ourselves, this is the reality of it.

What about you, Marcus? You bring it up?

Marcus Shumate (49:03.848)
Yeah, I I have, think I've actually been on other podcasts in the industry and someone asked me like, what's the thing you're afraid of most like death? Which was a great topic for something that's supposed to be kind of a fluff thing. yeah, I'm, you know, death is deeply unsettling to me. And I think making having made peace with the fact that it's unsettling is paradoxically made it less, less of a point of suffering, right?

But I would say, for me, death as a fear probably started really early in life. grew up with a lot of family that was, I'll use my dad as an example, he's a lifelong smoker, worked hard manual labor jobs his whole life. And so I never remember a point in which he was moving and wasn't in pain. Just literally, I like from, I think he was 38 or something when I was born and there was,

Kristen Poppe (49:39.288)
Yeah.

Marcus Shumate (50:02.966)
never a point in which I saw him moving without pain. And so there's just this like long aware, and I watched everyone else around, know, all family and stuff dying of different sort of metabolic and smoking related diseases. And so I think there was always this like watching that. And I don't, you know, I'm not a fan of taking something back to like,

trying to analyze why we have some sort of behavior and trying to attach it to some experiences in childhood, just because I think that's like rife with biases and just not a particularly useful exercise. if we were to indulge in that for a minute, I think I started exercising when I was 12, like 10 or 11, maybe 12, and probably not taking a day off really unless forced to for some sort of reason. Since then, I'm

be 39 next month. so I've always lived a really, really physical life in some sense of this one because I enjoy it. Like I just, love it. Right. Like feels good. it helps me clear my mind and think and yada ya, you know, a million different reasons, but, you know, in theory or arguably maybe there's some degree of like running from this idea of death, but the, again, the paradox of like engaging in a really physically demanding sort of

life and doing a lot of physical activities that you, as you watch your performance shifting as you age. And so I think, you know, again, tie it back to jujitsu, right? It's this combative sport. It's, I'm still in some ways I'm better than I ever was, at it. I have a really good competition record relative to the amount that I've competed, all this sort of stuff, but I'm watching guys that are younger than me, but I'm like watching. Yeah.

Yeah, but I'm like watching people I'm watching it fade right like I'm watching my performance shift and change and so in some ways there's this bearing witness to my own slow demise so no matter how much I work out and many how many minutes I jump rope how many push -ups or squats I do I will die and I will watch that performance fade I think all that stuff will help me, know Peter Attia sort of stuff like

Kristen Poppe (52:21.869)
Mm

Marcus Shumate (52:26.65)
age and die better, but the end result is I'm dying and I will watch my, will bear witness to that through the decline in performance. And I've already seen it, right? Like in different facets. So yeah, I think about death all the time. And having made peace with the fact that it's deeply unsettling and in a point of fear for me is actually eased the suffering of it. It's okay to be, for me to be disturbed by my own mortality.

Kristen Poppe (52:58.198)
was really well put. I agree with you. I definitely resonate with that of radically accepting the discomfort of it has helped me lead into it too. And it's I think it for me too, it's there. It's always in back of my mind. If I am saying goodbye to someone if I'm even getting in my car, I just think well, I could die. I don't know. And it just pops in you know, but

Marcus Shumate (53:22.004)
you

Kristen Poppe (53:27.648)
I, with your dad, I don't know how we are on time by the way. Are we?

Marcus Shumate (53:33.13)
Now, Tripp can text his mom and ask her how much more of this she would listen to.

Tripp Johnson (53:33.813)
Let it roll.

Kristen Poppe (53:33.814)
Okay. Okay.

Kristen Poppe (53:40.97)
with your dad and him really, you only seeing him in pain, did you ever talk about death with him? But how did he feel about it?

Marcus Shumate (53:48.244)
Hmm.

Marcus Shumate (53:55.585)
man, that's an interesting question.

Yeah, he was, yeah, he always was really clear, like, I'm going to die. And that's not

Tripp Johnson (54:06.582)
We can't tell if he's there.

Kristen Poppe (54:07.916)
I hope you were. I thought you were just sitting there.

Marcus Shumate (54:11.124)
Whoops, sorry, I just saw that I froze for a second.

Kristen Poppe (54:13.312)
I'm sorry, you cut off. You cut off.

Marcus Shumate (54:16.136)
No, I was just saying, yeah, so with my dad, he was always very clear. I actually have this memory when I was a kid, like probably way too young for this conversation if there is an age for that sort of thing. But there's a big like family cookout or something, I think. And he at some point was like, I'm going to die. There's like all these people and stuff around. And I remember, you know, my memory of that is like freaking out and breaking down. So I was like,

four or five or something and there's like 20 people over at the house and I'm like losing my mind because it's like, my God, my dad's going to die. So, you know, he was a clumsy person in a lot of ways with stuff he tried. But so yeah, I mean, not only was I watching it happen, but it was a pretty common sort of conversation. But what's interesting to me about it was never

It was never this thing that was like, I'm going to die and that's okay. Or you're going to die and that's okay. it was just a, yeah. So it was, was not necessarily like a terribly reflective sort of embrace of it in some sort of way. I don't know. yeah. So

Kristen Poppe (55:30.808)
really interesting.

Marcus Shumate (55:36.072)
Would I, have you ever incorporated death into sessions? Like as a, as a means of like, an intervention, right? Like an as a end of moment intervention, I'm curious.

Kristen Poppe (55:45.614)
That's a really great question. Not directly, I, and clients have brought it up though in this sense of, I'm trying to think of an example, I guess with like perspective taking of does this, is it really that serious in this sense of assuming the worst of a minor situation and saying, at the end of the day, I'm human and does it, and not in like a,

Marcus Shumate (55:50.842)
Thank

Kristen Poppe (56:14.274)
you know, suicidal way of does it really matter, but just perspective of, okay, you know, at the end of the day, we are gonna die. But no, and I haven't leaned into a lot with folks regarding end of life. I have talked briefly with a close friend who's a therapist and she has a client who has about a year left to live and they have talked. I I was picking her brain about this and...

Marcus Shumate (56:19.156)
Hmm.

Kristen Poppe (56:40.226)
you know, that I think it'd be really interesting to actually meet with a client who is transitioning to that because hearing the story of, know, have they accepted it or what are their thoughts on it? So no, not necessarily, but that's a great point. I haven't really leaned into that with, you we list what we're interested in and maybe that's kind of a, I wonder if I've done that actually indirectly, why I haven't leaned into that. I think

with more conversations or talking about death here and there with my partner, I think that has made me more comfortable with it. Because first beginning therapy, I didn't want to touch anything involving grief, anything involving really anything about that. And only in the past year, I guess, I have leaned into that and talking about people like...

Marcus Shumate (57:23.332)
Yeah.

Kristen Poppe (57:37.204)
losing a loved one with a client and in my own therapy too, but no, that's a good question.

Marcus Shumate (57:39.743)
Yeah.

Marcus Shumate (57:45.288)
Yeah. I, there was something I used to use sometimes it was helpful and always had the benefit, I think primarily of working in a residential setting. but I was always really enamored with that Carl Sagan, quote about Pell Blue Dot when they're, think it's the Voyager that's passing out of the solar system and it's looking back and there's like this, you see the sun, like a night, you don't even see the sun. You just see this sort of illumination.

light and you see this like barely noticeable speck and he has this just beautiful reflection on it in a way that only Carl Sagan could sort of articulate but it's you know it starts off behold that pale blue dot to spend there something like a speck of dust but there's a line in there that's always resonated with me that like behold like on that sits every tyrant every saint every mother child

everyone that you've ever known, loved or cared about. and, but it, but it just sort of paints us this picture of our own finiteness within this framework of infinite this. I think that's like, I would give it out sometimes to the clients and when they were be hung up in the, in the most sort of like perseverating or stuck in them, like most sort of myopic, like silly thing and just like, Hey, just

read this, just go somewhere by yourself, read it for a little bit and come back. We'll talk afterwards, but I just, want to hear your thoughts on it. because, yeah, because I mean, there was, I've always found it helpful for me. and so it seemed like a potentially useful exercise for, for some.

Kristen Poppe (59:17.122)
Mm -hmm.

Kristen Poppe (59:28.802)
Yeah, absolutely. So, I don't think I've met you before this. Yeah, so you do work with clients too.

Marcus Shumate (59:32.138)
I guess not, yeah.

Marcus Shumate (59:38.824)
Not anymore. No, no, no. I was a really bad driver. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can't talk about that too much. No, I maintained a few clients for a little while once I transitioned out of that into kind of coming into the organization.

Kristen Poppe (59:40.354)
Okay.

Tripp Johnson (59:41.534)
Licensure issues, know, these complaints and... We can't, yeah, it's... We have to edit that out. Look at the mustache.

Kristen Poppe (59:47.572)
Okay, classified.

Marcus Shumate (01:00:08.636)
yeah, I think, you know, for me, working with clients was all, felt a little limiting, loved aspects of it. Other aspects I didn't, this is like, we're, felt not, yeah, not, don't know. so, but I kept a few clients for a long time, from just over the years. And then I think actually don't really see anybody anymore.

Kristen Poppe (01:00:09.39)
Sure.

Marcus Shumate (01:00:37.29)
Occasionally someone will pop up on the radar, not really, not anymore.

Kristen Poppe (01:00:37.58)
Hmm.

Kristen Poppe (01:00:41.302)
Okay, cool. Tripp, there was one question I had for you, if that's cool. Okay, well, so I wanna go back to this kind of place we discussed briefly about CEO and just this, you know, title and whatnot. Do you?

Tripp Johnson (01:00:47.477)
Yeah.

Kristen Poppe (01:01:06.764)
any pressure on yourself? Like do you find yourself being attached to that title often and feeling like...

Tripp Johnson (01:01:13.129)
To the title or to the pressure?

Kristen Poppe (01:01:19.148)
I guess both, whatever comes with it.

Tripp Johnson (01:01:20.754)
None to the title. have no, I don't think I have any. The other piece is like, think from, don't identify as much as a CEO as I do identify someone as like a social entrepreneur. Like I'm very interested in building things like that hopefully have a positive social impact. So I am kind of like that, that feels like authentic to what kind of my mission is even.

going into the army and things like that before was very much to want to be part of something bigger. And then I'm just a horrible, horrible employee. And so I think it kind of made it so you really didn't, I didn't have the ability to work for others very well or even with others. So I had to do something on my own.

Kristen Poppe (01:01:53.581)
Mm -hmm.

Kristen Poppe (01:02:10.189)
Mm.

Tripp Johnson (01:02:11.326)
So that's kind of where that one is. And then in terms of pressure, I mean, I would say I live under what probably would seem like a ton of pressure and I put a good bit of pressure on myself. I definitely put a ton of pressure on and markets will know because we have all these conversations. I always want to figure things out so that if everyone had the right information, they would maybe even think like I'm a good person or like doing the right thing.

Because like for me, is the hardest piece is, you know, trying to build something that works for everyone. Right. And, and, and some of the things I've had to let go to one of the things I let go of a few years ago, but especially over the last maybe three to six months was, early on in kind of my leadership journey, I felt like, we got to build the right team. And if you build the right team and you treat everyone,

the right way and you're fair, it will all stay around together and that's how it's done. Whereas like there's too many factors that influence like how long someone's going to be in a particular job or role. And all we can do is kind of be committed to getting like the stoic more stoic approach. What's under my control? How can I do it? And I, you know, I'm never going to be able to give Kristen or Marcus all of the information that's going into it. And I can just do the best I can to

articulate what we're trying to accomplish, how we're trying to address problems. And I think that's like the hardest piece is when it feels like that falls short because like people are mad over, you know, whether they had someone put on their schedule that they didn't like. Like I take everything personally. Any grievance that anyone has in the organization I take as a personal attack on what we're trying to do and on me. So.

Kristen Poppe (01:04:06.05)
loops.

Tripp Johnson (01:04:06.058)
which is like super unhealthy, but I mean, I've learned to at least like tamper that down some.

Kristen Poppe (01:04:12.396)
Hmm. I really appreciate that. sorry Marcus.

Marcus Shumate (01:04:13.651)
I -

No, no, I wanted to kind of follow up on your question and push back on him a little bit on something. Cause we've, I mean, you've talked ad nauseum about this idea of like, when we've gone through points as a company where we've almost, you know, we've been at different inflection points are almost failures, right? Like almost collapsed in on itself. I've heard you in a, in a way that's like remarkably human discuss, like I'm,

do not want to let the people down around me, right? Like this pressure of, want to keep this thing going. I like the pressure that you, know, like even to the degree that like you've talked about, like the pressure that you felt was around like your, you know, quote unquote duty or responsibility to the people of the company. And so what I'm kind of curious about, to, you know, Kristen's pushing back on the site, like the identity of CEO stuff. What I'm curious about is how do you,

hold those two things because you really quickly were like, no, I don't really feel the pressure of that title, but that those things seem very connected to me. So I'm curious.

Tripp Johnson (01:05:25.674)
Well, I I feel, I mean, I just feel like, mean, I, and again, I label as language is imprecise, right? But, you know, like, feel like it's my job to gen like, I'm very like, and I hate the word loyal because I think it invokes weird other things, but like, am, I am very protective over like the people once, like we're on the same team, like I, and I just, and just the general connection of being human, like I am, I will throw things and get mad at.

you know, Blue Cross and at like nameless corporate entities or politicians that stand in our way of helping people. And once I get on the phone with them and we can have a human interaction, like I care about them and I understand that they have things they're trying to accomplish as well. Kristen, what you don't know is, you know, now I guess it's been call it 20 months from like the real near death experience we had. And like there was a time as CEO where I had to sit there and put together a list of

You know, and I had these mentors, I had like this board of advisors and I was in the CEO mentorship kind of group where 20 CEOs, we were by far the smallest company. And basically everybody said, you need to, you've got to put together a plan. You got to lay off like half of the team and you need to do it like in the next week. And there's the CEO side. Like then you were actually wearing the two hats, which is like, one is the mission and survival.

And then one is like the people who are involved and I didn't actually make a trade off them. So maybe I just got kind of lucky, but like we, sat there with a list and I had like, okay, like if we were to do this, these, you know, 25 people or 20 people are going to lose their job in a week. And that may protect the other 20 from losing their job kind of thing. Ultimately, like we were, we were able to get by on the skin of, you know, skin of our teeth.

So I've definitely felt that. And I think like the only thing I would say is like my goal and even in just like starting weekly communications again, like it's hard to have everyone, you can't share all the information, right? It wouldn't be fair. If I had told everyone in that moment, and we've talked about this as a leadership team, like if I told everyone in that moment, like guys, I don't know if we're gonna be around in two weeks, then like everybody's gonna leave and then we collapse anyway. And so like I had to sit there and be like, well, maybe we'll pull this out.

Kristen Poppe (01:07:43.34)
Gosh.

Tripp Johnson (01:07:52.618)
and, and I think since then, like we've made a lot of like strides, like we've made tremendous strides. It's not even the same organization in any way. but you know, like what that brings up for me is like anyone who was around back then too, like we went through some hard times, where it wasn't as transparent. Things didn't make as much sense, hopefully as they do now. and I think sometimes that even lingers with people. And so.

You know, like, I would just say, like, quite frankly, like, your experience of me is very different than other people who may still work with us to some extent, or may have transitioned out. And I just understand that's kind of how it is. sometimes it sucks. Like, I want to be able to, like, you know, give my case. like, why I'm not a bad person. And like, you know, we've made all these improvements, but you just can't, you know, like, I think that's probably the hardest thing. like, I just want to...

Kristen Poppe (01:08:30.584)
Sure.

Tripp Johnson (01:08:47.338)
If I could just explain to you, you'd believe me. And you'd be like letting go of that. Like just letting go of the fact that no matter what you do, some people just aren't gonna like you. And Elward, like you're just, so like that's, I mean, that's the hard piece, but yeah, I feel tremendous pressure because I feel like a lot of people have given me, you know, like to sit on, you know, quite frankly, like if this is what I'm doing on Friday afternoon, this is awesome.

Marcus Shumate (01:08:50.11)
You

Kristen Poppe (01:08:52.929)
I'm a fan of yours.

Kristen Poppe (01:08:59.042)
yeah.

Tripp Johnson (01:09:14.478)
And like in order for us to have the time and space to do this, like a lot of us are working and rowing in the same direction, you know, to help our patients, but to keep a, to keep an organization afloat at the same time. So yeah, there's a, what's the, with tremendous privilege comes tremendous responsibility type thing. I feel like incredibly lucky and fortunate. And I think what comes with that is like being a good steward of, of the mission and the people in the organization.

Kristen Poppe (01:09:41.132)
Hmm, that's a really refreshing answer. I just was envisioning myself in that space of I can't tell anybody really to cause this like wildfire, but also I may have to lay these people I mean, that's incredibly. And you're right, I, I've come into a completely different organization than what I'm imagining. And I can resonate with the piece of that stoicism of not being liked that is not

something for you to worry about. But I can imagine what you're saying of, just listen to me. Like, I promise I'm not a bad person, but that's not up to you. And at the end of the day, and that's hard, that's a hard piece to acknowledge. But yeah, I really appreciate that. And the fact that you've kind of given me insight into those pieces.

is refreshing for me as part of this organization. Like you are including me in that conversation and helping me see really where this began. And it's kind of cool to really see from your standpoint how this was pulled out of that quicksand. mean, and that was not long ago at all really in the grand scheme of it. So.

That's a lot to process.

Marcus Shumate (01:11:05.648)
I know we're probably, we're kind of winding short on time, but Kristen, I something I'd be really curious about, to maybe just hang some very practical stuff on this. Like let's just assume that some therapist or someone's listening or they see that title of this podcast. Like, what I'd be curious to hear is this take like two minutes and hypothetically

Kristen Poppe (01:11:09.943)
Yeah.

Marcus Shumate (01:11:34.342)
Imagine you're working with some sort of client, you've seen them at least a few sessions, that client comes in and let's say pretty normal stuff, dealing with rudiment, like just broadly speaking, dealing with depression and some anxiety, just whatever. How would you incorporate stoicism into a session? What would that look like, practically speaking for you?

Kristen Poppe (01:12:02.616)
That's a really good question.

Kristen Poppe (01:12:06.966)
I think I would help them really. So I know that part of the practice is that's where kind of the CBT piece comes in. I've already alluded to it in this podcast of we suffer more in imagination than reality. So I think I would help this individual. There's this, you know, technique, checking the facts to say, OK, you know, what are what story?

What narrative is anxiety telling you or depression? And let's acknowledge that and what story is this versus what can it actually be? Because we do, paint these pieces in our mind that things that haven't even happened yet or already assuming this piece and that goes outside of the area being present.

groundedness, I think I would help them lean into here now and acknowledge, you know, what stories there versus, again, checking the facts. What is reality? What is what's going on here? What are you choosing to lean into? Are you choosing this fear or because that's maybe a comfort for some people. That's how we control things rumination. That's our

That's our way of controlling the situation is to just, if we think on it enough, that becomes our way of saying, okay, I've got this, you know, letting it be. So I think leading into, I know mindfulness is such a overused phrase and I really don't even like it. Yeah, but I think recognizing, hey, I think this might be a bit more and we're making it a little bit more and kind of helping them come back down, so to speak.

Marcus Shumate (01:13:41.533)
Yeah.

Marcus Shumate (01:13:51.042)
And it's fine, you're gonna die.

Kristen Poppe (01:13:53.046)
It doesn't matter because we're all going to die. So bye.

Marcus Shumate (01:13:54.442)
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, bye.

Tripp Johnson (01:14:01.072)
That's how I end conversations with my wife. You know, we're all gonna die and the self is just a construct. So I don't know why you're trying to change me because there is no me to change.

Kristen Poppe (01:14:14.85)
There is no need to change.

Marcus Shumate (01:14:15.102)
Yeah, and I've got no... If there was, I have no free will to change it.

Kristen Poppe (01:14:19.101)
Exactly. I love that.

Tripp Johnson (01:14:22.351)
well that was fun. That was a nice long recording. was... Chris, and thanks for coming on.

Kristen Poppe (01:14:28.088)
Thanks for having me. Yeah, we did kind of go all over. loved it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay.

Marcus Shumate (01:14:28.319)
Ciao.

Tripp Johnson (01:14:30.794)
Will you do it again someday? You should really encourage someone else to get on. So it's not just Marcus and Tripp talking. I mean, cause next thing you know, it's going to be, yeah, who knows? All right. Well, I'm going to go check in on the construction here and I'll see you all next week.

Marcus Shumate (01:14:39.188)
Nah.

Kristen Poppe (01:14:43.707)
yeah.

Kristen Poppe (01:14:49.472)
Love it. All right, sounds good. Thanks, y 'all.

Marcus Shumate (01:14:51.594)
See you next week. Thanks.