Courage to be Curious with Adina Tovell

Effective Leaders are Appreciative Leaders

November 17, 2021 Adina Tovell, Amy Steindler, and Wanda Wallace Episode 167
Courage to be Curious with Adina Tovell
Effective Leaders are Appreciative Leaders
Show Notes Transcript

What happens when a content expert becomes a leader? What happens when a professional who is known and respected for what they KNOW moves into a role where they manage people? On today’s episodes, we speak with Dr. Wanda Wallace, business coach, author of You Can’t Know It All, and host of the podcast Out of the Comfort Zone who helps us unpack this transition and the role that appreciation and gratitude play in doing it well.

Where to find Wanda Wallace:

Web - Wanda Wallace
Web - Leadership Forum

Where to find Amy Steindler:


Follow us on all our other platforms!


Hey, this is Adina, and I'm wearing red today in honor of our podcast guest, Dr. Wanda Wallace, who I don't really know why I actually do know why she tells the story on our podcast, why her color is red, and why she shows up in red on her website. So listen in. So you can find out that what we're talking about this week on the podcast is leaders who transition from being experts into positions of being leaders where they manage other people. And what does that transition like? And of course, in sync with our theme this month, what is the role of appreciating and valuing people once we move from expert into leader, and what are some of the stages of transition that leaders have to make when they make that shift? So tune in see why Wanda and I are wearing bread, and check out the importance of appreciation in the workplace and for particularly for people who are moving into leadership roles where they have to manage others. Hi, this is Adina here with today's episode of Courage to be Curious with Adina Tovell. And as you know, you have already been reading our newsletter or listening to prior episodes, and you know that we are in the month of the you matter marathon. And I'm really thinking about how we acknowledge and value people. We started the month talking to Cheryl Rice. And she really got us launched into what I think is now the fourth year of the you matter marathon, and really distributing this message very consciously throughout the world that people matter. And on today's episode, and we're in our leadership strand, we are here with a really wonderful guest, Wanda Wallace, who is a friend and colleague of Amy. So Amy Steindler, is also with us today on this episode. And if you are listening, that's great. If you want to hop over to YouTube and see Amy and our guest and Wanda in person, you can pop over and do that as well. And we're the reason I'm so excited to have Wanda as a guest today as Wanda works with leaders, and she helps them to make a really important transition. This is an area of focus of her work right now, where she helps them to focus from expert into the position of leader where now somebody is more responsible for helping a team feel as though they matter. So, Wanda, welcome. I'm really excited. I want to give a little bit more background to you. But I just first want to say Hi, and welcome to today's episode.

Hi, thanks very much. It's pleasure to be here with both of you. So thanks for the opportunity.

And just so you all know a little bit about Wanda, she is the managing partner of the Leadership Forum, her focus really is on working with leaders. She is an accomplished and dynamic keynote speaker, which I think you're going to hear just kind of the dynamic, dynamic dynamism, diet, how dynamic is coming through today, when she speaks, she also has a book, you can't know it all leadership in the age of deep expertise. And this whole concept of not wrapping our identity around everything that we know, but how do we be in the space of not knowing and see ourselves as a leader, I think is a really important idea for leaders to lean into today. So I'm excited, we're going to talk about that. And she has a podcast, also a radio show called out of the comfort zone. And as you know, and you saw it, we talked about in October two, that we're all about being out of the comfort zone, because when we're out of the comfort zone, we're in the growing zone. So I love that. And if you are interested in what you hear today, pop over and check out that radio show and podcast too. We'll talk more about that later. But I want to let's dive in because I know after that people are very excited to hear what you have to say about leadership.

Okay, Dina, I'm ready.

Awesome. So I want to, again, I you and I talked about this a little before we got on board, I was popping over to your personal page to really just understand and learn a little bit more about you. But you came to an appreciation of people. And I often say I like to say fascination with people from a very young age. So what ignited your curiosity about just who people are and how they work?

I think I came in the world that way, quite honestly, my brother will joke that it's the only way we survived our family of origin. So you have your own family dynamics everybody does and their own family of origin. You know, I guess they are parents managed to raise two psychologists. So that may tell you something about that. But quite honestly, it's just been my own curiosity from as long as I can remember how do people make sense of their world? A question I've chased in education in psychology and my PhD in visual perception in memory and now as a coach and writer and speaker in business. It's my driving friends from driving question.

All right, well, now that you set up with that driving question, I have to ask you to share, what are some of the things that you think because there's so much that I'm sure you are still yet to discover? Because we are infinitely complex as these human beings that we are. But what are some of the things that you feel like you've revealed or uncovered, as you've been pursuing that question over the years?

Well, when I was much younger, so in my early years, and in my time as an academic as well, I was much more focused on the cognitive side of how people understand so how the perceptual system works, how the body functions, cognitively, how do we reach conclusions, make decisions, that sort of thing. And fairly honestly, at that time, there wasn't an awful lot of research into the emotional life. In fact, most psychologists were trying to wipe emotion out of study, because we couldn't quantify it in good ways. As everyone knows, that is all completely changed. And my research changed kind of at the edge of that field, I got more and more interested with the impact that emotion had on our thinking on our memory on our experiences. Today, I believe, basically, as human beings, we make up our mind based on the emotions, and then we justify it with the facts afterwards. Now, there's a few exceptions, not many. So that's one of the ways in which I've changed.

And, again, I'm going to go way off script here, because I just, you know, I had followed the curiosity and fascination but what you talked about in terms of that transition, making that transition from we were very cognitive base to now introducing feelings as a source of information and knowing and I usually write when I talk to people that signalling system, right air getting signals, what have you seen in your work in leadership as to the receptivity and the openness because, you know, sometimes in corporate environments, people are much more comfortable in talking about the cognitive and being in the space of the cognitive. So what kinds of transitions have you seen in the corporate and organizational world to people's comfort level and accepting this premise?

Okay, so can use the word emotion now, and people don't freak out on the first step, why remember, the first time I did this with a client, it was in the US. And I was working with the senior group, and I was trying to talk about conflict and the ways in which you work your way through conflict. And part of that one is you have to look at how you're feeling. And I remember the class just sitting there going, Oh, no one, one person had the courage to say, ah, you know, that's not not what was really very direct, not what I'm going to do. And that was in early 2000. So we have moved and now we're comfortable talking about the word emotion, we're comfortable with emotional intelligence being an attribute that we can assess that people understand they need to get better at it. Okay. Notice that that's all cognitively talking about emotion. What we're missing is the skill to say, I feel and fill in the blank, and have any comfort, where that's appropriate how to do that in a good way. So one of the things I see I work with a lot of women, especially young women, and they have been told that they are too emotional, overly emotional, okay. And they think that means that they have to become on emotional, like zero emotions. First off, that's not possible. And second, it's a really bad strategy. Because if you have zero emotion, we're gonna see you as inauthentic. As not genuine is not human is not reachable. Like we can't build trust. So it's a bad piece of advice. The comment is you've become overly emotional is a volume button, dial it down, not switch the off button. So in answer to your question, ADINA, we're moving, we're moving at a snail's pace, in my honest opinion. But we're moving we just have got to get a little better at understanding how to talk about emotions, where is that appropriate? And what's the way to do it that's going to be effective. And I'm hopeful I'm gonna a little a lot of people are, you know, there's a lot of mixed reactions to the millennial and Gen Z. I happen to like them, I think I'm curious what they're going to do to the world, it will be different, hopefully better, but it will be different for sure. And I think they have been schools to be more conscious of their emotions. So I'm hoping that they're not going to lose that skill as they take over leadership positions.

No, it strikes me but we're saying one day, the idea that we had to sort of Squeak the door open by talking cognitively about emotions before we could really get into the conversations about owners. ability. You know, I love Brene Brown and those kinds of teachings. So, you know, how do you think about and I, I know that you have taught me a few things about this? How do you think about introducing these kinds of conversations? You know, how would you think about producing a conversation about you matter, or about longing and inclusivity? Because I want to keep bringing it back to the topic?

Yeah, I think the easiest thing to in terms of umat Okay, let me put you matter asides. Because I think that's a relatively easy one to do. What I've got to do when I want to show somebody I matter is, I actually have to genuinely care. If I'm interested in you, as a whole human being, not just in your ability to produce work, so I'm not interested in machinery, I view the output of you, I'm interested in you. And that's where Curiosity is such a powerful tool, that if I have that I care. And then I'm willing to notice something that you've done. And to say something about that, or notice that you haven't spoken and invite you in to speak or to notice, yeah, I want to hear your opinion, and ask for your opinion, I think that's where we start to show to people that matter. So the mechanics of doing that one are really, I think, fairly straightforward. I think the problem comes though, with how do we introduce a conversation about emotion. So let's say for example, I'm not feeling very included by my team, or by my manager, that carries with it for me a lot of emotion. And that emotion may vary person to person, I may feel hurt, I may be angry, I may be, you know, any number of things ashamed, I may not get off all sorts of feelings. We have no skill, and how do I now initiate that conversation with my manager? So, you know, I can say the formula is that you would say, if you were my manager, Amy, I'd say, Amy, I'm not feeling very included in let me give you an example. But Jesus is that take courage to do, and it takes rehearsal to do it so that I can say that calmly because if I come in at with, you know, an edge in my body, that conversation isn't going to go very well. So it's that's, you know, opening the conversation when I'm feeling something like not included or not appreciated, is the hard part. Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense. And how do you talk to the leader, the manager, so say, you know, yeah, do you? How do you, how do you how do you? Yeah,

I have to tell the story. Because you know, Amy, I always tell stories, so I can't resist the story. But I was working with a very senior guy who's charming, delightful, fabulous leader, very successful, running a big chunk of the business, he gets a new manager. And the new manager is just not one of those appreciative people. So he doesn't say good job, thank you well, being Alright, the guy that I was coaching his name, and we'll call him John, for the purposes of this conversation. And John is just enormously frustrated. Like, I He's John is just one of those people that when you say you're doing a great job, I really value what you're doing those words, just make him motivated and keep going. I mean, he's like, just gun how, and he can't get it out of his manager doesn't matter what he does, how often he does it. Nine months, they've been working together, and he's been turning himself inside out, to get the manager to say, I value you. Okay? Now, the manager is not doing anything necessarily wrong. It's just not he's just not doing what John needs for John to be at his best. So finally, John, out of sheer frustration, having tried everything, wasn't it was manager's office, slams his handle on table and said, Would it kill you to say thank you every now and then he gets he can get away with that, because he has tried for nine months and delivered for nine months. So he's earned some credibility. And in those cases, you get a little pass for not handling that conversation. Brilliant. Manager and responses goes, he puts his head to his hand. He goes, Oh, I know. I've been getting this feedback forever. I'm terrible at it. I don't do it very well. I'm sorry. Okay, great. Great. Now what? Now what? So okay, good, but I still need the feedback and you know, the appreciation and whatever. So they worked out a crazy system. Anytime that John was not feeling particularly appreciated. He was going to sneak into a bought his boss's office put draw a star on a blank piece of paper and leave it in the boss's office. Hair. Because, you know, if you go to somebody and you say, Hey, tell me I'm doing a good job, it never feels very good. So this was like a secret code passed between them. That was a signal that the boss needed to come out and say, Hey, John, you're doing a great job on X, Y, or Z. But you know, sometimes crazy things like that just some code can make it easier for people to initiate a conversation around appreciation.

So I'm fascinated by this. And I have to ask this question on behalf of the women listeners, the not the John's but the Jane's, you know, who are out there too. And because as soon as you said, you kind of made the comment there, well, you go in and you say, I'm not feeling I'm not feeling appreciated or valued here. And I just pictured people and that I've known who would sort of look and either me like, What the heck, you know, this is a work environment, what do you need me to like give you gold stars, or smiley faces or pads on back? And that or there's this sense that maybe as you said, different people need different things. And some people look at this as just sort of like, are we on the playground? And we 10 years old, you need me to tell you're doing a good job, right? So how does somebody navigate in that space? And particularly in women who are already getting dinged for being overly emotional in those spaces, when they get that kind of response from people?

Yeah, it's, we should come back and ask whether women are overly emotional, or men are overly emotional, there's a mythology about that one, but I'll I'll park that one for now to say. So first off, if you're a manager of people, or you're working with people, or you're trying to get people to collaborate with you, and you don't have to do that, because their direct reports, just peers out there, it's pretty important to understand that people come as a continuum, but I'm gonna call them two camps, because it's easier to dichotomize and remember it than it is to try to do shades of gray. Some people are very task focus. So very cognitively focused, got the tasks done, check the box, move on, they don't need a lot of appreciation, nor do they give a lot. So instead, if you're not doing a good job with them, they will tell you rather immediately, what's not going well. That's their bias. That's their preference. They think that's what it means to be a good leader. And they will say to me regularly, what's the problem, I'm not giving them any feedback, nothing's wrong, get on with it. Like, come on. We're not in school. There's on school grounds. And there are men like that. And there are women like that as well. The other camp though, are people who need a lot. They're at their best when there's a lot of kudos, a lot of Pat's on the backs a lot of thank yous, and they give a lot to, okay, neither is wrong, the two just don't see eye to eye and don't tend to value each other's unique styles. So the number one thing to do is to recognize your own preference. And take a look around what do people around you want, and what's going to make them more engaged, stronger performers, feeling more included, all the stuff that you're looking for. And so you accommodate, you have to change where you can accommodate.

And I think this relates back to something that, you know, we were talking about, it's the seeing the people, because one of the things you write about in your book is the transition that people make from being expert to leader. So when I'm the expert, I imagine I only have to worry about what I know and what I do and how I know how to do it. And what I need, right, there's a much greater I focus. And as soon as somebody moves into a leadership position, suddenly the aperture to that lens has broadened. And now suddenly, they need to be concerned with something else. And so, you know, I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that transition. Because, you know, sometimes it's, for so many reasons, it can be a challenging one to make to going from expert to leader. So what's that transition like? And, you know, not both internally and then what you have to do to now be in charge of other people.

Okay, I'm gonna confuse your language a little bit because there is a transition from being the expert, individual contributor. So it's just me all by myself to being the expert leader, where I am leading a team, but I'm leading a team because I know more than the individuals were reporting to me, okay, it's a still a leadership role, still accountable for people. But my expertise is the driving factor. That's how I'm going to relate to people. That's what the conversations are going to be about. That's why people are going to follow me and I may even have some unusual personality quirks. I might not Be very appreciative or whatever else people need. But they give me a pass because my expertise far outstrips theirs. Okay, so that's one transition into leadership. Beyond that, if you continue to take on more responsibilities in your career, you will eventually find that you are leading a team where the team knows more about some things than you do something I call Spanning Leadership. And there are still there are two versions of leadership. It's just where's my credibility coming from? In the experts coming from my knowledge, and in the spanning world, one of the hardest questions is, why are people following me? What I do you know, more than I do, I can't do your job. Why are you following me? Why do you want to work for me? Why do you value me as a manager, what's my contribution, and in that spanning role, it is the relationships and the emotions. So I often say to people, if you think back on a leader that you really admired and valued, and list for me what that leader did that you so appreciated, I will bet very little of it has to do with what they know. And an awful lot has to do with how they helped you in your career, how they encouraged you the inspiration they gave, the way they backed you the way they empowered you, I mean, how we left them feeling. So it's learning to not drive all of your value value from what you know, and trust that this human side is actually the ultimate big value to add. But that transition before my credibility was all about my knowledge, and now it's about what

was hard for people?

What are some of the things that you see, as people are making that transition? And suddenly now, my credibility is going to come from leading a team inspiring, motivating and engaging a team? You know, where do people struggle in that? And what are some of the ways that you help them start to embrace this new experience of being a people leader?

Alright, so there are three questions that everybody making that transition has to ask. The first thing is why am I valued anymore? So if my identity has been about knowledge, my reputation has been about knowledge and ability to get it done. Why do you need to keep me around anymore, so getting people over their own nervousness of my value is now very intangible. So the value is now about being able to tap your network to reach people your team can't reach is about bringing the team together to collaborate with each other in ways they wouldn't do. It's about that emotion and encouragement and you know, valuing and appreciation, all of that stuff is what your value really is. But the first step is I have to get leaders to change their own mindset about how they're adding value. And when I get past that one, the second question is to say, okay, great. So what's the work I'm supposed to be doing? Then? Like, what am I doing with my day, if I'm not doing what my team is doing? And by the way, how do I know they're doing the right thing? Everybody's nervous about mistakes about risk profile I used to know used to be able to check can't anymore. Now, what am I doing? And we can talk about that we can resolve that when we get some issues on that one. And if I can get you through that phase, then the third phase is the how phase. Okay, great. How, how do I have these conversations that are going to be inspiring? How do I come to know what motivates you as a person? How do I resolve the tensions and disagreements? If I'm not leaning into the facts as the only way to resolve the tension and disagreement? It's, we can now we move into the how, but if I can't get you past those first two mindsets, the how is Oh, yes, sure. I mean, it's like in one ear and out the other. It just doesn't stick. get you past the first two mindsets than the How will work.

One of the things that I love about this is because in our work, one of the paths we like to take people on, which is what you're describing is to be inwardly reflective so that you can be outwardly effective. Yes. Right. And that's really what it is, is that asking these questions, we have to first ask the questions of ourselves, in order to then arrive at a space where we can be effective. And anytime we make a transition, you know, in our leadership roles anywhere in our life, there are always new questions to ask because the transition by its very nature means that something new is going to be required of us.

Yeah, well, and that's what growth is about, right. Um, you said that at the very beginning of the podcast, if I'm not putting myself out of my comfort zone, stretching into places I haven't been before taking on roles, I don't know learning stuff I haven't learned, then I'm not growing and that step out, you know, it's uncomfortable on occasion.


Sometimes it's exhilarating. But more often than not, it comes with some discomfort, some fear, some anxiety. And we're back to talking about emotion. Again.

We're talking about emotion. And I think we're talking about language and Adina. And I talk a lot about language and more into you. And I've talked about the importance of language. So I'm wondering what your thinking is on how to teach a leader how to walk a leader through the language of appreciation, what are the kinds of things that they need to say, I mean, besides good job on that job on XYZ.

But that's not I mean, if that's all you can get done, do that. That's okay. The best appreciation, though, is like the best feedback. It's specific. So if I were to say to you, Amy, I really like how you ask that question. That's very specific. It's very in the moment, and it's going to carry more value to you than if I just said, great job. So it's finding the thing that somebody did, and noting it, saying it out loud and adding your appreciation to it? Can I take a little side step because one of the things that I was thinking about and prep for today was an all my go back to my PhD days in psychology. And we just talked about animal behavior, we just talked about how do you train animals. So these single best way of getting people to make change is by positive reinforcement, the single best way of learning the single best way of teaching a new trick to a dog, it's true to anybody, human being as well as positive reinforcement. And what that means we should do is that we should catch people moving in the right direction, not perfecting it yet, but going the right direction. And given them positive readings, or the good job, you made a good step, that's the right way to go and say that. And then as I take another step, then you reward that one, you given the positive appreciation for that one, and then they take another step. So you're corralling them, almost channeling them in the direction you want to see them go in. But when I think that way, in business, I wait until you get it perfectly. And then I might say, good job, maybe. But mostly, I criticize you, when you didn't get a perfect along the way. She doesn't help very much.

And we were talking about our backgrounds in education, too. And we have the same problem in education too. And even where we should know better, because if we're really following the research, we should know a lot better. And it was interesting, because I was just following a post that somebody had on LinkedIn talking about a way that her daughter had been shamed in school for forgetting her gym uniform. And you know, the punishment that she got for that. And I was reading some of the comments that come came through, that got me very contemplative, they were about this tough love part, you know, oh, we're too easy on this. Oh, you know, we we let kids get away. It's the lack of discipline, it's the lack of whatever. And then people giving examples of times when, you know, when this happened to my son, or this happened to whatever, here's what I did, it was a tougher approach. And it got me thinking about this. And what I realized, I felt like the distinction to me was, if I introduce a tougher or kind of more disciplined approach with somebody with whom I have a relationship, and there's trust, then that can be inspiring. But when I take a tough love approach to somebody where we don't have that Bank of trust already built up, it's not likely to have the same reaction. And to me, it felt like, Ah, I think this will might be what people are missing. And when we're building relationships, I wonder if this is a key piece that people are misunderstanding.

I think there are two pieces to this. And we'll put the kids aside and what we shouldn't shouldn't do with kids. I'll leave that to parents make their own call about it. And I'm certainly not advocating that we never give constructive feedback that isn't very realistic, either. But we certainly could think about our ratio of feedback, not Kim Scott, the book is called Radical candor says that when I know you care about me, and you give me really harsh feedback, even very candid, tough feedback, I might not like it, but I'm going to value it and appreciate it. It's when you don't care about me or I don't believe you care about me. And then you give me really harsh feedback. That scene is brutal. So I think you're right that whether I feel cared for by you, makes all the difference in whether I'm going to receive that feedback. So that's one dimension that's going to help second dimension is back to this notion of expertise. If I am operating within my zone of expertise, and I know what I know when I know what I don't know and I know wouldn't everybody in the field knows, you can give as harsh of criticism as you want. And it tends not to rattle me because I'm pretty comfortable with my expertise. It's when somebody is trying to learn something new that they haven't done before, that the criticism is so hard to take. And I think we have to where are we focused on getting people to learn something new? Or are we focused on refining what they already know. And that would lead to two very different behaviors. So if I come back to the kids, I'm not that I'm giving parenting advice. But if I take this back to the kids example, that you said, if you've been working with your kid for a month, on getting the gym uniform, and having the habit of picking it up, and they've done it 99% of the time, and they miss the day, okay, maybe a little tough love is appropriate. If it's the first time the kid is learning to take their gym uniform, maybe really have to have a little different conversation.

Right, right. And I'm sure that Matt, not many people out there are following the same conversation I'm this happened to have been what the teacher in school did. And it was it was interesting, but at the same point is there and I appreciate that. And so I want to just as we're, we've been focusing on this aspect of appreciation. And I'm curious about maybe an example where you have seen this kind of really fall flat and an example where maybe somebody has done such an extraordinary a brilliant job of really conveying the sense of appreciation and you mattering that you've seen in the corporate environment.

Okay. Let me give you an example. That's an atypical example. Because I think we always believe that as a manager, it's my job solely to make sure that everybody feels appreciated as one more burden to put on the managers plate. And yes, I think managers need to do that. Yes, and you need to do that more than twice a year. Granted, if you want your team performing and engaged and all those positive things, yes. But it's also not the case that the manager has to do the entire set of work. So I worked with this leader, a woman in this particular case, I'll call her Jean for a change in names. And she, you know, was hard pressed on time, as many managers are, and one of those types of just did not feel comfortable giving an awful lot of praise. But she recognized her team needed more than she was giving them. So she created this thing called Friday huddle. And they sort of all got so smallish team, they all got together on a Friday, and everybody went around the circle and said, One thing they appreciated from anybody else in the circle. So I really appreciated you helping me on this project, I really appreciated the DA, everybody has an appreciation for somebody around the circle worked like a charm. 15 minute huddle, everybody's happy, she feels good. And quite honestly, she got better giving appreciation. And it was specific. Okay, so that's an example that an entity builds that kind of team cohesion, which is what helps us feel included, and in a learning environment. I think what the worst that I've ever seen, in terms of trying to give appreciation, or when people say, Oh, that was a great job, and there's like no emotion to it, it doesn't come across as genuine, I don't think you really liked me very much to begin with. And it just people judge it as fake. And that is worse than having said nothing. So it's I think you're back to where you started a Deena that you have to do this in context of I care about you as a person. And I think it needs to be specific. I think it needs to be something you genuinely mean, not something you're just checking the box on.

Or, you know, what comes to mind for me what are saying this is, you know, what are the elements of of expressing appreciation? And I'm thinking about, you know, the huddle where people get together, and they can say specifically, an observation, I noticed that you took an extra step and did this a little differently. And that really helped me out. And then we come back to curiosity, do you How did you come up with that? What made you think to do that? So we then engage in a conversation with that person about the thing that they did that we appreciated so much. And my sense is that would ratchet up the motivation and inspiration to the next level?

Sure. I think anytime you take a behavior or an observation, and you follow the thread, so you take it one step deeper, and you ask a question out of curiosity, to tell me in effect, tell me more about what you were thinking about why that mattered about what you saw about whatever. You're deepening the levels of trust. Because I'm hearing you I'm listening to you, I'm noticing something about you. And I'm opening up to you,

learning from you, right? So I mean, nothing, nothing gets me more motivated than someone to say, Wow, I learned something from you. Right? That's exciting that that makes me feel like I belong.

But back to the theme of your podcast, all of that has to come from a place of genuine, I often say genuine, gentle curiosity, not the level of curiosity, where you feel like you're facing an inquisition, to the level of curiosity that's genuine and gentle.

So with that in mind, before we get to Amy's favorite part of the show, which is where we kind of express our curiosity, since we are in this month of you matter, and we're talking about appreciation, let's model a little bit more of that here. Because we can do that amongst ourselves in this setting here, almost like this, this circle of things. And so given how we know each other, and things like that, so Amy, I'm wondering if you could kick it off. And whether that is sharing some appreciation for Wanda, who you've brought to us to me, will each pic get one person here that we get to put in a circle? But what would a genuine expression of appreciation sound like? So we give a little bit more models as to, you know, how people can start to verbalize? Yeah,

I just I, I really admire the work that you do in general, Wanda, and I appreciate so much everything you've taught me, I couldn't even begin to list how many things I've learned from you over the last couple of years. And that there's a generosity to that, that I've observed in you, that means a lot to me. So I just want to make sure you know that. Thank you.

Thank you. That's really, really cool. I appreciate that.

So when do you get an opportunity here? You know, for Amy, for me you've just met? And how would it sound like?

Alright, I'm gonna do a simpler one. And say, I want to thank the two of you for giving me a platform to talk about something I care about so much. Both the curiosity and the work, and I appreciate your willingness to trust me on this topic in front of your audience.

Well, thank you, and thank you for the ways that you've expanded our understanding of the topic and provided I believe, really accessible, and ways for people to begin to think about them their selves in this own space of how do I fit into this into my skin as a leader and be able to exercise this important part of my role. So thank you. And Amy, I just want to say to you, I want to express some appreciation to you because Amy, Wanda, you may or may not be aware of this. But Amy is kind of new, and she's kind of sporadically but frequently co hosting with me. And there's two things that I love so much about what you bring to this is you bring both the things that I wouldn't think to bring because you bring an entirely new lens into the conversation and I can count on you seeing an aspect of a conversation I might not have ever seen. And at the same time, I can count on you to actually read my mind and follow the next thread exactly the direction I would have gone and what an amazing blend to have of somebody who can do both things at the same time.

Thank you that's very kind and I think you know, when when we are present for each other in any kind of relationship like this, those beautiful little synchronicities start to happen. So thank you, I appreciate it. My enjoy it so much.

So now we get to this fun part, the one you really enjoy her, Amy. So you know, let's get in, you get to introduce and kick us off.

Yeah, so at the end of every podcast, we get to indulge our own personal curiosity on any topic. And of course, well now I'm gonna put you right on the hot seat immediately because I am so curious about how you you are in London right now. And you spent most of the pandemic in New York. What are you seeing compare and contrast living in London right now during you know, sort of extended endemic and what it was like in New York?

Well, in both cities feel very alive. So people are on the streets, people are out doing things. There's a lot you know, so it feels like the cities are both coming back. What I noticed though, in London that I think is different in New York is that more people are in office buildings, more people are going back to work. I went yesterday to see a client in an office building for the first time since this all started In March of 2020, so that is happening here in London. I don't think it's that and that, you know, vaccination rates here are really good because the NHS has a way of reaching everybody in a more direct way than I think the US has been able to do. Whether there's more acceptance here or not, I can't tell you about vaccines, but I think they have managed to reach a larger portion of the population through the regular general practice. But I think the case rates are very similar. I just think here, there's much more of an attitude of I'm not going to be so afraid of it. We have to get on with living through this. And I've obviously take some precautions, accordingly. So that's the difference that I see. And granted, London is different than the rest of the UK, just as New York is different than the rest of the US. So I'm comparing two cities, not two countries, I should qualify that.

Absolutely. Alright, you get to ask a question.

I get to ask a question. Okay. Then I'm going to do the question. I always ask people, which is I'm always curious, Amy, about what's around you. So I'd like to know, why the lighthouse, what's the significance of the lighthouse?

I'm so glad you asked. I just got back from a week in coastal Maine with three girlfriends. And I have fallen in love with coastal Maine. And just the idea that there's this clean, cold ocean water and fresh air, and we were very lucky on the weather. And also, I'm fascinated by the rockiness. Like I love stone, and the texture of it, and the colors and just I wanted to take home every rock I picked up. So I just I'm starting to feel this real pull toward postal mail and I don't know what it means plus, okay, lobster, Just sayin. We ate lobster twice a day. I am not making this up until I like couldn't anymore. So we switched to oysters. But yeah, that's, that's a lighthouse and coastal mean that you see behind me and I'm digging. You know,

IPLS Okay, so it sounds like you're going back again, sometime before too long.

I feel like I want to drag my husband up there and say let's look for a little piece of property, build a tiny house and have a place to be up there, though. I'm just going to put that out there and

Okay, with that reminds me how much you love the water to the ocean?

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for asking that.

Thank you. Go ahead, Adina.

So Well, I was gonna ask a question is so Amy, you had talked about having a color study done? Like to get what are your colors? And Wanda, you have really, you know, charged powerful colors on your website. So I want to ask about question about your colors. And so Amy, I want to know from you kind of what was revealed to you there and how have you embraced it? And you know, after she's done them, Wanda, you know, how did you come to the colors that were going to represent you and your brand out there in the world? So Amy, how did you What did you learn in your color? So

yeah, I learned that I'm a full right. So it's deeper colors, darker colors. This bright blue is one of the best ones say, you know, greens are good on me, actually, like a bright sort of green yellow color. And I tend to not wear that bright I tend to stick to block because it's easier for me to wrap my head around getting dressed for work. So yeah, I mean, I learned that certain colors do bring out my skin tone, the my eye color, and I had never thought about that before. You know, I love wearing great T shirts, but they made me look like shit. And so what can I do? You know, I still wear? I? Yeah, I don't know if that quite answers your question. But it was interesting, like this woman who went around and that was her job is to do people's colors and I got a little swatch book that I can take to the store with me. So that's my story. Over to you. All

right, completely different answer. So read this deep, bright red that's on the book cover and that's all over my website, happened by sheer accident as do many things. So I was working was getting some photographs taken the one that is so popular now. Greg Salvatore was the photographer. Give a shout out to him. We were on a very great day on New York City streets. And I had brought several different jackets with me and we picked the red jacket because it popped on this grey New York day and everybody Love that photograph sense. So it's stuck. And then once you pick that one for the good, that's the color you want to put on the website or the paint and photograph you're going to put everywhere, then well, that's the color we're going to pick up. And that became the color of the book cover. And then I've just decided, fine, red is my signature color.

Race, your power of the hour?

Well, I'll actually embrace having a great photographer who's got the wisdom to say that color.

I love it was driven by New York afternoon hazy weather. So it's. So as we're wrapping up here, tell us a little bit about the book, who is it for? And what can people who are going to pick it up, you know, expect to uncover in the book? And where can they find out more about you. And the work that you do with organizations

through the book is for anybody who's looking to lead, who is leading, who's managing people who are leading, are looking to step your own game up. And particularly if you've suddenly found yourself leading a team where members of the team know stuff you don't know, that's when it's really hugely valuable. I also think it's valuable for managers of managers to be able to know how to give their advice and development agendas for people. And it is a how to manual Edina. So we talk about each of the questions that I outlined. And we talked about what that transition really looks like from one state to the next state. And every single one of them has a 235 10 exercises to do that help you move in that direction. So that's what the book is about. And the best way to find me is you follow me on Twitter at Ask Wanda or LinkedIn or on our website is leadership dash my personal website wander out of the comfort I think I've gotten all of them in there. The podcast is called out of the comfort zone. I think if you grab any of those, you'll find me pretty quickly.

That Can I just do a little plug for out of the comfort zone because I have learned so much from Wanda's guests, she curates an amazing group of people on I every time I listen, I'm like, wow, I've got like 10 notes that I really want to put into practice. So I highly recommend out of the comfort zone, in addition to courage to be curious,

thank you very much, Amy. Much appreciated.

Thank you.

Yes, and you know, continuing to be a student of how do we be our best selves as people because this being human thing can sometimes be really complicated and hard. And then you add a leadership role on to it. And so continuing to immerse oneself and the resources that are there is, you know, it's how we grow, we get out of the comfort with how we grow. So one, I want to thank you for coming on today for being our guests for sharing with us and for helping people to start to toe out of their comfort zone and consider you know how they can land and new places of people leadership, and particularly in Hispanic situation when they're out of their zone of expertise that and for everybody who's listening, you know, we as we mentioned the beginning, we are in the midst of our month of really focusing on the you matter marathon on appreciation, it's also Thanksgiving. So it's not a bad time, right? We're already primed for gratitude. But we're hoping that through these conversations that what you were being prompted to think about is how can I up my game? How can I up my game in terms of how each and every day I can help those who are closest to me, and those who I might encounter for just a moment to really have the experience that they matter, and that you have the ability to convey that through your genuine seeing of people and genuine interest in helping to spread that message through the world. And as Wanda really poignantly pointed out for us today, it's not enough to just say words, because words without the emotion and words without the genuine feeling don't convey the same thing. But yet we have this really accessible capacity to sink into the feeling of the emotion that we just talked about, in order to be able to convey something genuine. So up your game this month, up your ability to convey to people you matter, and what an amazing way to plant seeds that change the world. So thank you for listening to today's episode. Be back with us next week as we continue the conversation about how to spread the message of you matter and appreciation and continue to pursue your own curiosity about people. I love that Wanda and I share that together Wanda Amy and I fascination with people thanks for listening

Transcribed by