Courage to be Curious with Adina Tovell

Transform Anxiety with Reflective Practice

December 08, 2021 Adina Tovell and Shelbie Fishman Episode 170
Courage to be Curious with Adina Tovell
Transform Anxiety with Reflective Practice
Show Notes Transcript

What does it mean to be mentally healthy and spiritually fulfilled? In this week’s conversation, we talk with Shelbie Fishman about her journey from high achieving perfectionist who continuously wrestled with stress and anxiety to a first-year medical student who is approaching this new chapter with wisdom, balance, perspective, and joy. Tune in to discover how she is transforming the state of her mental and spiritual well-being.

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So I think for me, you know, mental and spiritual well being really, really stems from that feeling of knowing yourself to the point where you can make decisions that are best for you. And I know that that sounds simple, that used to sound very simple to me. But it is so profound, so much more profound than that, in that you really have to do the work and take the time to get to know who you are, and what is best for you. And that changes, you know, that's not a sedentary thing. It's dynamic, and it's fluid. And, you know, you and I talk a lot about the seasons of our lives that we have. And so being really attentive and mindful, and then acting accordingly is is for me what mental and spiritual being has become. Hi,

this is Adina here with today's episode of courage to be curious with Adina Tovell, and we are kicking off the month of December. It's hard to believe here we are December of 2021. And every year in December, both in my newsletter, and in my podcasts, I usually focus on the big theme of reflection, right? It makes sense. Here we are at the end of the year, we and 2021 2021 has been a year different from any other and we said that the end of 2020, but well has 2021, even more different than 2020 was for many people too. And so it behooves us, I think, to really set aside time for reflection on where have we traversed this year, what has it been about for us? And then given the journey that we're on? Where are we headed in 2022. And so everything I do this month is really going to be focused on this theme of reflection. And so you saw that in the newsletter, if you missed it, go back and grab it, it's in your email, if you want it, you didn't get it email us at info at courage to be curious, calm, because we always send off some great reflection exercises in that. And in this podcast this month, we're really going to be doing some wonderful work in reflection, and my guest for today's episode, and I'm going to introduce her and then come back and sort of set the stage for what we're going to be talking about. But my guest today is somebody who is very near and dear to my heart. Her name is Shelbie Fishman and Shelbie is a client a incredibly vibrant, up and coming transformer of the world and who and potentially the medical field, she's going to give a little bit more background to herself. And I think an incredible representative of kind of a millennial generation. And he's really thinking about who am I in the world? And how do I make my mark and the world and so a perfect person to have a wonderful conversation about reflection in December. So welcome, Shelbie. And thank you so much for being here.

Thank you so much for having me. Adina so yes, my name is Shelbie Fishman. I'm 23 years old. I just started medical school at Washington University in St. Louis School of Medicine just a couple months ago. I'm originally from just outside of Washington, DC. So you know, first time in the Midwest, um, and it's been a really amazing experience. I met Adina the summer prior to when I started medical school because I had just graduated college the year prior 2020 had gone through a lot of transitions and very clunky, you know, kind of adjustments, graduating in the midst of pandemic moving back home applying to med school, all in the context of this crazy pandemic year. And I really wasn't sure how to transition back into an environment that was going to be so high stress, while also not really feeling like I had a handle on everything that was going on in my life at the moment. And so I reached out to ADINA, and I asked her, you know, how I can become a better kind of version of myself so that I can best handle the challenges that are going to come you know, before me and you know, as she and I have talked about extensively, I was really intent on doing this not only for myself, but also for the patients and the people that I was signing up to care for for you know, the rest of my life. I actually just took my official kind of Hippocratic oath at my white coat ceremony recently where he talked a lot about the commitment that we're making to others, through our profession and through really our livelihood. And so Edina has been an incredible resource and really has made all the difference for in just the last couple of months in making me able to to be the best kind of medical student and I think ultimately physician for those individuals.

Thank you for that. Shelbie, thank you. And I, you can already tell from listening to Shelbie that she's an incredibly impressive and beautiful inside and out young woman and many people. I mean, I look at her and I think 23 years old Wow. And just an incredible amount of courageous curiosity and wisdom and commitment to bringing your best self forward and to bringing your best self in service to others. So I'm just, I feel totally blessed that you're here with us today.

Me as well, me as well.

So on this episode today, and the reason I asked Shelbie to be on is, in thinking a lot about the importance of caring for our mental, emotional and spiritual well being, I think these couple of years, right, Shelbie have been so trying on people, and in a minute, I'm gonna ask you maybe to talk about how that showed up for you. But, you know, I have just seen it across the board with plans with people out there with friends with family, young people who've been in college, through the pandemic, people who've been trying to traverse, you know, high school during the pandemic, and it goes all the way down, that living in an environment that is so outside the norm of what we're doing, has been really taking its toll along with everything politically. And those things that we're dedicating this episode, she really reflecting on the importance of supporting and nurturing your mental, spiritual, emotional well being. And Shelbie, I'd love for you to say a little bit of how this whole couple of years has impacted you. And what really brought you to the awareness that you needed to do something different, and you wanted to do something different.

Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I'll just go back a little bit to sort of the impetus of reaching out to you and sort of what, what led me to this work, which is, you know, when I was in college, I was a pre med student, kind of from the start and had always sort of followed, I think, what was expected of me by the standards of, you know, what a pre med student should achieve, had always been, you know, a very kind of high intensity person really go go go, didn't really take a lot of time to stop and think about what I really wanted and needed in the day to day and was very focused on just kind of getting to where, to me what meant progress and success. But I never really took the time to define what that looked like for me, in kind of the broader fulfillment sense. And so when I graduated college, and the worlds came to a stop, at the same time that everything that I had been doing for the last four years also came to a stop. It was like, my entire barometer was totally out of whack. And I just felt like I had lost all sense of really control over, you know, all the things that had been propelling me for the last four years and something that, you know, you and I had talked about, I remember even during my first session was just that, you know, a lot of people that are drawn to these high intensity kind of professions have such difficulty bringing themselves back down to that equilibrium state. And I just, I will never forget hearing you say those words, because that was exactly what I was craving, I really wanted to get back to a place where I felt centered and stable, and like, I could make decisions that were best for me at, you know, on a day to day basis. And, you know, it's crazy to think, you know, that wasn't even that long ago, but I really did not feel capable of doing that. Because everything that had been my normal up until that point was essentially gone. I was no longer you know, living in a college dorm, I was back at home with my parents, I felt like so my independence had been lost. And then of course, we were going through this global pandemic, where everybody was feeling like, their normals were completely evaporated. So I think for me, you know, mental and spiritual well being really, really stems from that feeling of knowing yourself to the point where you can make decisions that are best for you. And I know that that sounds simple, that used to sound very simple to me. But it is so profound, so much more profound than that, in that you really have to do the work and take the time to get to know who you are, and what is best for you. And that changes you know, that's not a sedentary thing. It's dynamic and fluid. And, you know, you and I talk a lot about the seasons of our lives that we have and so being really attentive and mindful, and then acting accordingly is is for me what mental and spiritual being has become.

Yeah, it's beautiful. And you know, it is we don't we talk about these words mental health And we're talking about it all over the place right now, because of the reasons we just discussed, spiritual, some people feel more comfortable with and some people are still getting acclimated to the idea of spiritual well being. But I think as user, you mentioned some of the key components of, you know, mental, emotional and spiritual well being, which is your feeling rooted in a sense of meaning and purpose, right, that I'm not just kind of going on the treadmill. And I'm not just sort of following everything, and I'm not in a state of perpetual motion and momentum that I've no idea what my purpose or meaning is, this, you know, way of relieving stress. Because if I have a feel spiritually rooted, and, you know, mentally clear that I'm able to navigate, whatever kinds of stressors come up, I have a plan, I have an approach. And you know, when we can do those things, there is this feeling of hope. And I think that this is one of the biggest things that mental and spiritual, emotional well being provide for us is that even when things are hard, we have confidence in ourselves, and we have confidence that we can move through it, and that there will be something good on the other side, right, something for us on the other side, right?

Absolutely. is so, so, so important. Especially, just in thinking about, truly what roots are in that, you know, they keep you grounded, and that visual, you know, we talked a lot about that. And that has been something that has carried me through knowing, you know, you ask a lot, what is what do you know, to be true for you? And the answers to those questions, becoming your roots becoming almost like that armor that you carry with you everywhere that can help you defend and, you know, be ready for anything that life is gonna throw at you. It's a really, really powerful thing.

What do you think makes this so difficult? Like, let's talk even about your generation right now. Because I think that you're in a place that can be hit almost extra hard with this, I think we're all hit in different ways. So maybe it's just a unique heading of it for your generation. But what do you think is most impacting people your age, because I'm personally just having I have more clients in your age group than I've ever had over my 10 years of practice. So something is happening? What is making it so demanding right now to feel grounded?

Yeah, absolutely. I think that the accessibility that young people have to essentially anything that they want to consume at any given moment, is more stimulation than probably anyone can and should handle and really, that anyone even asked for. So I think that this era of, you know, you have all of these opportunities at your fingertips, while very exciting, is also incredibly overwhelming. And if you don't, if you don't take the time to ask yourself, Where do I really want my energy to go? Where do I really want to focus my attention, based on those routes that I have laid for myself, you'll go everywhere, you know, you'll take every opportunity to look at consume everything. And before you know it before you're consciously aware, you are completely drained, and you feel like you have lost yourself. And so I think that, you know, my generation has also really been raised in a way that again, it's kind of a double edged sword, where I was, you know, very much taught, you can do anything that you want to, you know, like, a woman and kind of, you know, being a successful woman has always been really important to me, and I love that, but it's also, you know, the opportunities are endless, and I want to make the most of my time on earth here and like really make an impact and, and kind of have this legacy. And that's a really, you know, that's a big kind of burden to bear that I, you know, a lot of people have not necessarily thought about or really had the opportunity to think about before. And I take that very seriously. And so I think young people are kind of feeling the weight of a lot more kind of on their shoulders at a younger age. And they're not really taught what to do with that. And so I'm a huge advocate for this work at a young age. I am I wish I had started this younger, to be completely honest, because it completely changes the way you move through the world and makes makes everything just more meaningful. It lightens that burden. It teaches you you know, just how much how much capability you have to be able to make, you know, pave your own way, which is really amazing.

So your talk shall be about the proliferation of things that sort of target us, right? You know, we have all these things and it's true, actually, everybody is vying for our attention, right? And we almost have to become like warrior about what we're going to give our attention to and how to protect our boundaries because those who want our attention are getting better and better and better and better all the time. trying to grab it right. But I'm also wondering if you can speak to I don't know if this is your experience, but especially with social media and things like that the comparative nature, right, that here's what it looks like, here's what fun looks like, here's what success looks like, here's what your peers are doing. Here's that what role does sort of the comparison that is set up by having access to other people's lives all the time? How does that impact?

Yeah, I think that's a huge impact that also really gets built into your subconscious over time, which is that your goals in life, oftentimes, like get more into somebody else's, because you're constantly looking at the way that other people live their lives. And I mean, because Instagram and Facebook and social media in general have become kind of this mindless activity where you're consuming it almost without even thinking about it, you don't realize that, you know, when you are, you know, maybe feeling down and you go on your phone to distract yourself, what you're actually doing is, you know, just perpetuating whatever you were feeling beforehand, which is that, you know, your you know, whatever path you're on right now is not good enough, it's not valuable enough, what somebody else is doing is better. And it just, it sends you into this spiral of comparison, where I just think it makes it all the more confusing to really know yourself, because you're incorporating these curated, you know, almost facades that other people are putting up into what should be true for you, when in reality, those are fake to begin with. So it is a very slippery slope, I think it's very much a part of my generation psyche. And it seeps into all other parts of life. You know, I think it also speaks to, you know, people that are already intense kind of, so to speak, and, in some ways, maybe intrinsically motivated by a, you know, kind of have a competitive nature, so to speak, like, those people are even more susceptible to this. And I think a lot of times, that creates a really dangerous combination.

There was something that you shared with me early on in your medical school, you're still pretty early on, but very early on, and came up maybe in the first few weeks of medical school where you were talking about the fact that you have the option to do this pass fail, or it was pass fail, but that some people were still so competitive. And, you know, how much should you be worried about what your final grades were? Or could you embrace the Pass Fail nature of things, and I would just love for you to share a little bit of how did you work your way through that? And, you know, again, it was sort of what were you being warrior about, as you were trying to find your way through this? Yes, absolutely.

I think this is, you know, today, probably the clearest manifestation of how I've really incorporated what we've talked about into my, you know, concretely into my life. So, yeah, like Adina mentioned, my curriculum at med school, as most medical schools are these days, is pass fail. And that's a very sharp departure from how most people in college that, you know, wanted to go to medical school had lived their lives, most people, you know, all they cared about was the hot, you know, what the percentage on their their exam scores can be. And, you know, having had that experience for so long of really just caring so much, and investing so much energy and what that grade was going to be, I knew that it was going to be an adjustment to try and let that go to relinquish some of that energy. And I went back to what, you know, a DNI talked about, and I said, Okay, you know, here's this new kind of set of guidelines. What do I know, to be true for me, in terms of what do I want to get out of my medical experience? What is going to make me the most fulfilled here? And what what do I know? You know, kind of on the converse, is going to do the opposite what's going to be detrimental or kind of danger, harmful to or counterproductive to those goals. And I realized that this pass fail thing was such a gift. And it was an opportunity to really live out a lot of those goals that I had set out for myself during my work with the dean. So I think, you know, an example of this is, I asked myself, you know, at the end of each day, if I have, you know, memorized 100% of what I'm, you know, what might be tested on, but not been able to participate in any of the extracurricular activities, not been able to get involved in any leadership positions, not been able to shadow and build relationships with faculty members, what I feel fulfilled. And, you know, I asked, I took myself I asked myself that question, I was curious about what that answer would be. And the answer was, No, I wouldn't feel fulfilled. I would rather meet the standards of what was being set out for me rather than, you know, continue on the treadmill that had been set by my past. I wanted to change that behavior. urine, say, really fulfill me is to learn 70% of the material and pass and leave self leave time for myself to engage with the community around me and really become a part of this amazing, all the amazing opportunities that the university has. And I think that is where this armor, you know, I really just, you know, kind of hinging on the the warrior part of this, which is this armor of the roots that I had laid before of what really matters to me, what do I know to be true for me, I know that I am a person that really values connection and relationships with people, and I can't I can't build those if I'm spending 12 hours in the library each day. And the beautiful thing is, I didn't need to do that anymore. So there was really nothing stopping me other than myself that and so I think that is really the difference between, you know, had I not worked with Dina and not really done that work, I guarantee you, I would have stayed on the treadmill of I have to get the highest a no matter what. So, so yeah, that was my experience.

What is I'm listening to I'm hearing all of the courageous questions you ask yourself, right. All the things you said as I asked myself this. And then I asked myself this, right at which I love sort of referencing this, the power of asking yourself the questions in order to get to what matters. And in order to help guide yourself to making the decisions that feel most aligned to you, which is your fall. And so you mentioned I mean, we just talked about it, some of the questions that you asked yourself, and it just were one of the primary tools that you took, it's like, oh, okay, I should actually stop and pause and ask myself some questions and reflect on things rather than just keep going and going and going. And that will help me to feel a greater sense of alignment and purpose. I would love for you to share just one other tool that maybe we discussed, that you felt has been instrumental in helping you to feel connected to you and rooted in you as you're

traversing life. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, this is a bit of a smaller thing. But it has made a really big difference. In my life, I think, you know, this was something that we talked about sort of the tail end of our work together. And something that I'd shared with you was that I was nervous about my interactions with people that had a lot more experience with me in the field. And so, you know, medicine is known to be this very hierarchical organization, you know, you have your attendings and then your residents and your medical students. And it's, it's very known that that's an intimidating part of this career path, obviously, as is present in many other careers. But there's a lot of a lot of, I guess, fear in, in approaching people that have more experience than you and making a bad impression and having that impact your career. And while at the same time, you know, trying to learn from them and make the most out of those interactions. And so I mentioned to Adina that I was, I was feeling really anxious about going back into an environment with people that I felt really intimidated. And honestly, less than and kind of inferior to. And something that she recommended I do is, you know, five minutes before, you know, entering a room with individuals that I might feel intimidated by taking a deep breath, and know she has great breathing practices that I won't go into here. And it does go back to questions. But I would say even before that, just beyond questions, reminding myself, I am such and such. So what are the answers to those questions of what I knew to be true for me, reminding myself of those and feeling myself be rooted in in what those answers are. And then this one phrase, I think is so amazing is you never know when you can be somebody else's Angel. And that I really think is something I have come to live by. I think you mentioned it to me once, but it has made such a difference. And I truly do I say that to myself, every time I'm about to enter into a conversation with somebody that, you know, I might feel is, you know, superior to me, whatever that might mean. And it just it's so empowering. Because it also forced me to think about all the times in my past when that has absolutely been true when I had no idea that I might be able to help somebody, and it takes away all the fear out of that power differential because all of a sudden, you realize that you bring something to the table, you have value. You know, this isn't a one sided thing where I'm just here to impress, like, every interaction, every conversation is an opportunity to potentially make somebody else's day better. And, you know, as I mentioned before, that's really why I got into this work in the first place is I wanted to be the best kind of physician and, you know, service member that I could be and so that really spoke to me because that spoke to my values that I feel very rooted in.

Alright, so beautiful and I love that that's the thing that you brought forward because it is that teaching How can you be somebody who's Angel today just changes everything in that dynamic and relationships? Yes. So, as I've shared with you, and one of the reasons shall be that you are spokesperson on this episode too, and thinking about this work of reflection is, and this is sort of the first time announcing it formally to the courage to be curious community, right, is that I've recognized over time, how important developing this as a practice is, you know, that asking the questions, taking time for reflection is not something that most of us have built into our day, our day often feels like even if we put aside the time, it can just sort of once it takes off, it runs away with our time. And yet, if we don't stop and pause, and take this time to ask the questions and do the reflection, that we become very disconnected from ourselves, right, we become disconnected from what's most important, and we just suddenly find ourselves like in the midst of the rapids being carried down the river, and we have no idea if we're gonna hit a rock or where we're gonna land. Yeah. And so for courage to be curious, and you know, after about 10 years of doing this work, really thinking, how can I bring this create a community that can do this together so that it's not always you know, a one on one for those who are able but really a community of practice of really asking the questions sitting to take the time. And so courage to be curious is launching right now there's actually a pilot program running of which shall be is a part where we are doing pilot sessions, wisdom, Warrior sessions, where we are taking this time for pausing, reflecting and connecting back to self. And I wanted, you know, to just ask you, you know, you've been through this individually, what do you feel like is the benefit of coming together in community with people all taking the time to pause, reflect and connect together? Yes,

absolutely. I'm very excited to answer this question, because it also kind of goes back to another really concrete tool that you have taught me, which is you very, so astutely have kind of renamed anxiety for me as almost like an ego centrism, where you kind of feel like you are the center of your own universe and your problems. And, you know, I don't even know if problems is the right word, but whatever your feeling is, is kind of outsized in a way. And you know, something that I also do more, you know, more now than I ever did before, is when I am feeling anxious about myself, I call a friend and I asked them about their day, and I kind of take myself outside of that egocentric view. And it really just evaporates a lot of those acute feelings of stress, it doesn't obviously get rid of whatever I might be experiencing, but it really, really de escalates what I'm feeling. And I think that is, in a sense, what is so beneficial about community of practice is not only can you learn from what other people are benefiting from, but you really can get outside of yourself. And and I mean, it's it's truly magical is not the right word, but it is incredible, the impact that, that moment of just taking time to listen to somebody else. And and really just taking some energy away from whatever you might be hyper focusing on, bring so much clarity to your own world. And so the community of practice, I think, you know, is beneficial both for learning and for understanding other people's techniques, hear hearing other people's stories, building those relationships that are also really fortifying. And then kind of at the crux of it is, you know, taking yourself outside of that kind of inward focus.

Oh, I love that Shelby. I mean, you said that I think even better than I did, she's gonna be more facilitators. But this idea of how when we come together, because I think when we do get into feeling anxious or unnerved about something, and you kind of mentioned this is that we feel like we're the center of the universe. And we also feel like it's the only we're the only person this is happening to and it is like, all eyes are on us, or it's most important thing. And it does, it gets a supersized in a sense, right, and we supersize our story. But when we come into community, and it's amazing how often somebody says, Oh, my gosh, right, like, yeah, I feel that too. I feel that too. There's a little bit of a normalizing. It's like, oh, this is what people experience in this kind of moment. And we can all actually make it through this together, you know, that there's a path through this, this isn't something that's going to consume us or take us down. It's something that people experience.

And it's okay. Exactly, exactly. And I just, you know, I just have to add that I think what's so powerful about that is it you know, a lot of times I think when we reach out to our support systems, we get a lot back that is still focused on us, which which others Sometimes we think that's what we want. We want, you know, advice, we want to be consoled. And I think sometimes while that might be that immediate gratification in that moment, and it is absolutely necessary, when really kind of working through things, for me, what I have found to be most powerful is hearing other people's stories, you know, taking the focus away from myself and seeing kind of that solidarity, and learning from what's worked for other people that might have had more experience than I. So it is, it's really, really amazing. And I'm so excited.

Yeah, so I want to just share a minute or two about what's going to happen in this community of practice. And then she'll be asked you, you know, who do you think would be, you know, this is for Who do you think are good participants, but so in this community of practice, and if you are listening now, it is mid December or early December, I should actually say, and we still have a few pilot sessions. And so I sent out the, you know, the, there's a pilot group who has been participating in some early sessions, but as a listener, courage to be curious. Now, I want to be able to invite you and we have a few pilot sessions left, that if you want to get information about how to participate, like immediately, immediately immediately send an email to info at courage to be curious, calm, and we will get you the information for that if you are so intrigued. And I know she'll be will be in on some of those sessions. Oh, of these community practice sessions really is to take us into that space of pausing reflecting and connecting their 30 minute session signing up like the same way you would for a yoga class or your hit class or whatever it might be, that an opportunity to be brought in, gets centered, separate from the world outside, bring forth the query, one of those courageous questions like Shelby has been asking of herself, allowing us to ask it in the context of community, a little bit of guidance from me as to how can we go in and explore that? What might you do with this question, some guided reflection, and then really thinking about how do I take this out into my world? How do I take whatever insights have been gained, either from me personally, or things others have shared through chat into my world in order to help me feel more grounded and go forth with more intention, so that I feel more meaning and purpose. And literally, these are 30 minute hits for your mental, emotional and spiritual well being. So this is what we're doing in these pilot sessions. This is what we're doing in this community of practice, that is going to launch fully in 2022. But shall be as you've been thinking about this, and been, you know, kind of participating in this work? Who do you think these sessions are for who you think should consider signing up and participating? Um,

I mean, I think the sessions are really for everyone. But I think in particular, you know, anybody who, well first let me just plug again, young people out there young people everywhere, millennials, Gen Z years, I think this work is so so, so important for us, because, you know, we we have, you know, just, you know, a life ahead of us that we want to make the most out of and find the most meaning from meaning from and so, I would especially plug those for, for the young people out there that might not really even know that this kind of work exists that in this way. You know, when I preach a Dina's gospel to my social circles, a lot of people have never heard of work like this. And so I would, you know, definitely say that, you know, people who are not aware or who, you know, don't have never found themselves in a place to be doing something like this before, definitely would benefit and then I think kind of more specifically, I think anybody who is really looking to be able to live their life in a way that feels more authentic and more true to themselves, and something that, you know, if anybody is struggling to, to, you know, just make make their life more more them, which I think is really just, you know, a simple but, but pointed way of saying that, then, you know, you should definitely participate. And I will add that, you know, a lot of the practices that Adina and I have talked about, I think, you know, she's mentioning specifically that this is there's kind of 30 minute sessions and it's really rejuvenating, and it doesn't doesn't take long to to engage in this work. I, you know, asked myself a question for a minute a day, and it changes my entire day. So so that's really the benefit of this work is, you know, it takes obviously time to kind of build an understanding and incorporate those into your life, but they're simple and they're concrete, and they're, they're accessible to anybody, anybody can can, you know, make this a part of their life and so, I think that you know, these sessions will really make a difference for everybody.

Thank you, Shelby. And I think I'm gonna like go off the show just like us let you take the league, because you are such an amazing method. So you're you're hired, right? You're a new host, cursory curious. Oh, the dino on podcast. so fabulous. Really, as you can tell, it's clear to see why I think so highly of this incredible young woman who yes, and you're like on the cusp to hear between millennial and Gen Z. Right? You get a little bit of the Joseph though. Yeah, right. Yeah. So I mean, I don't really have a lot more to add on top of what Shelby said. But what I really want to encourage everybody who's listening is just to hear from me that this is really feels for me. I've been doing this work for about 10 years now. And been hosting this podcast for about four years asking these courageous questions, Game Changing questions, inviting people to get curious within. And so for me, this is this expression in this next level of let's all get curious together in real time in real space. And it's one of the reasons I thought a lot about it, these sessions are not going to be recorded and then distributed later, it really is about showing up. It's showing up and doing this work together. Face to face, like you and I are here face to face today. Because there's something about the shared energy, right of being in a space with people that really does help to bring us out of ourselves and helps us to feel part of a community supported by that community and infused with energy and insight by that community. So, you know, Shelby, I'm so grateful to the way that you've expressed all of this and invited people to consider something that they might not have ever thought of before. Because you you've done that beautifully, and you've made it a very welcoming space for people to be so thank you.

Of course, of course, Adina knows I'm endlessly grateful for her. So this is, you know, my absolute pleasure.

And so as wrapping up this episode, and we have more to come in terms of reflection, and courage to be curious for the month of December, so keep staying with us. You can find out we're always putting stuff out on Instagram, or you can follow us at courage to be curious. And on LinkedIn, we have a courage to be curious page where all of our podcasts release, if you're not yet signed up for our newsletter and our podcast, distribution by email, go on to courage to be curious, calm and signed up, sign up for that. And again, I want to invite you, if you want to participate in some of these final few Community of Practice sessions through the month of December, actually, for the next week and a half or so from the time of the release of this podcast, then go ahead and send me an email at info at courage to be curious, calm, because as a listener, I'm eager to have you participate to say raise your hand and say yes, I want to be part of this courageous practice. I want to see what this is about. And then of course, we'll launch the full program in 2022. Thank you, Shelby for participating today. Thank you so

much for having me. I had a great time as always, and yes, everyone sign up, if you will. It is absolutely worth it.

And thank you for listening today. Continue to engage with us and we will be back again next week.

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