Cyndi Markey. How to embrace all of who you are after religion.

My guest today is Cyndi Markey who used to be a Jehovah's Witness. Did you know that Jahova's witnesses' cannot celebrate birthdays? They cannot socialize with people outside of their church family unless it's for work or school.

Cyndi shares with me about how growing up women and children were to be seen and not heard.

In High School Cyndi was able to take a class that was not an approved class from the church. She loved her teacher and he taught her critical thinking skills. She later received a scholarship but couldn't accept it as higher education was frowned upon.

At 18 years old she met a guy that she loved and as nature would have it, they had sex. Cyndi was given a public reproof in front the of the church for her sin and if you were not shown to be sorry enough, you would be ex-communicated from the church. She had been told that if she disassociated herself before she was dis-fellowshiped that it would be better for her as she could still be with her family. She learned quickly that this was not the case, in fact this was much worse.

Cyndi moved to Tennessee and her family followed her, she was stalked by her family and members of her church as they were trying to save her soul.  She moved from Tennessee to Arizona and then to Chicago to live with her grandmother. In Chicago she tried to establish some sort of normalcy. To her normalcy looked like establishing routines, getting a car, a job, getting friends and having a sense of community.

As Cyndi tried to unpack the previous years of her life it was painful and she attempted to take her life at 21 years old. She later married a man, divorced and then had a few other marriages. She asked herself, "Why can't I find the keys to happiness?" This question propelled her into finding her healing.
Cyndi breaks down finding happiness and yourself in 4 steps:
1. Know Yourself
2. Trust
3. Teach
4. Love Self

Your heart knows, Cyndi shares. Build your own resilience. Did you know there are more neurons in the heart than there are in your brain? Cyndi is now a heart math practitioner and shares some fascinating information about the power of the heart.

Cyndi was an author on a book Fear to Freedom: Stories of Triumph After Leaving a High Control Religion. Get your copy today! https://www.amazon.com/Fear-Freedom-Stories-Triumph-Religion/dp/0228825652/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1647314520&sr=8-1

To connect with Cyndi, visit her website: https://www.cyndimarkey.com

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Transcript

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Welcome, welcome, welcome to my podcast leaving religion and those really behind. I'm your host, Amanda J. Loveland. And as always, I am so thrilled to be here with you today. And I'm excited to share with you my next guest, who was a former Jehovah's Witness. And I love that we're branching out and sharing different stories and having different perspectives and different wisdom that's being brought into these episodes. It's truly truly a gift. And I'm so grateful that I get to facilitate this, how awesome is this. And before we dive in, I want to remind you that I have a speaker symposium coming up in April and this is a lean into your light speaker symposium. And I have five beautiful speakers along with myself that will be spending the day with you and assisting you in really stepping into those places within you and leaning more and more into all that you are. And this is April 24. In Highland, Utah, it is an in person event only. So this is for my Utah, the locals head over to my website, Amanda joy loveland.com forward slash lean in to grab your tickets tickets are $149 for the day, and that does include lunch. So it's a great, great price, and you'll want to get your ticket today before they sell out. If you are not on my email list, I highly highly encourage you, I would encourage you to go and get on my email list. I have several events coming up. And other retreat that I'll be announcing here soon. For those of you who are writers and feel like you have a book within you that you are not quite sure how to get it out how to share it, where to even start I am co facilitating a retreat with my beautiful publisher Akira Polson. And we haven't announced this retreat yet. So here's your little teaser, this is coming up in May. So jump over to my website, get on my email list, I'll put the link in the show notes below and make sure you're on that list so that you can be one of the first to know this will sell out quickly. So they're just a little teaser to make sure you are on my email list. And with all of that, let's dive in to my next podcast interview with Cindy. Well, welcome Cindy, I am so excited to sit down with you. And one of the reasons why I'm really excited is because I don't know much about Jehovah's Witnesses. And so this is really, most of the I don't know if you know this, but most of my episodes have been former Mormons. And that's because that's what I I was. And so naturally, that's what I've gravitated towards. And now we're starting to branch out into other religions and people who've left other religions, because I think it's really, our stories are more like than we realize. And I think that there's beauty and wisdom that we can gain from all walks of life. So I agree. So happy you said yes. And that we get to meet and get to know each other. Well, thank you for inviting me. You know, initially, I did the same thing. And I focused on just people who were leaving Jehovah's Witnesses. But I also in doing that met other people from other religions. And it's kind of eerie to find out how similar they are. They're all same, same but different, right? Because it's all mind control. It's all about control. And it just has little subtle differences. But the effects on the people that are in the religion and try to leave are very much the same. Yeah. And so I met our mutual friend because we both share stories with, you know, back and forth between the Mormon group and the Jehovah's Witness group. And, you know, I used to feel B to be a Jehovah's Witness until I found out you guys couldn't drink coffee the whole time. Oh, at least I got to drink coffee. Like I thought I had it. Exactly. As I'm drinking my coffee right now. And and the strangest thing for me was the underwear thing that you guys had. I never knew that. And I was like, wow, that's really weird. But then, you know, sharing my story with some of the people that I get to know who are Mormon or Scientology or whatever. They're like, Wow, you guys did. That's weird. We're glad we didn't have to do that. Right. It's just kind of funny to react back now. Right? Yeah, that's really interesting. So were you born into job being a Jehovah's Witness? So I was about a year and a half old when my parents decided to convert so I wasn't born into it. But I didn't know anything else because I was so young, when they converted over and believe it or not, they were someone that knocked on their door, which is the really typical thing that people know about Jehovah's Witnesses right as they come to your door and bring their pamphlets and their tracks and or they stand at the train station now or, or whatever it is they do with street corner. But my parents were converted by someone who made that knock on their door. And they're still in that religion. So, yes. So growing up in that religion, how was it for you, you know, early on, you think that your life is the same as everybody else's, and you really don't know any different. So you just kind of go along with the flow. Now, it wasn't until I was probably in, you know, like fifth or sixth grade getting into middle school, you really start to notice that you're different than other people. And, you know, I wasn't allowed to associate with people outside of our religion, except to go to school, or to go to work. Is that that is that they typically do things is they isolate you, right? They don't want you to be out talking to other people, because then you might get a clue, really. So even the adults that's limited, limited contact with people outside your local congregation or other Jehovah's Witnesses, unless it was work related or school related. So as I started to get older, and I didn't get to celebrate birthday parties, or play sports, or celebrate holidays, and I became more aware that that's what other people were doing it, that's when I noticed that my life was different than others. Yeah. So once I just made that connection, it was an uncomfortable situation, because whenever there was someone's birthday, and the kids would bring in cupcakes or candy or whatever, and people are going to have a birthday party, we had to leave the room. Really. When when people saluted the flag and said the Pledge of Allegiance in the beginning of the day, things that most people think are normal, we couldn't stand we had to remain seated. Because we didn't show our loyalty to a religion or I mean, a country or a man, that was not acceptable. Will you tell me because I, again, I'm not familiar, hardly at all. There's only one person in my life that I know that is a Jehovah's Witness. And I, I don't really know much about the religion, the belief system, what the structures like or what the logic is behind it. So this is all that I'm actually really curious to understand a little bit, do you mind kind of sharing a little of that? Sure, I will share it. Now, I will tell you, I haven't been out over 35 years. So I don't have my finger on the pulse of their, you know, today's teachings. But overall teaching really hasn't changed that much. They are run by a governing body, New York, and that governing body is believed to get the messages from God. And they pass that along to the congregation. And they are the only ones that have that direct connection. And so they filter it down to you know, there's like, district overseers and then there's presiding overseer, and then there's local elders, and then there's ministerial servants below the elders. Women do not have any teaching role. They're there to support and clean and, you know, knock on doors and support everything but but they are not allowed to do any preaching from the platform, or have any type of a leadership role in the church, we're more there to, you know, have children and support the husband and, and help spread the Good News and help other people learn. But there's no other role for women. Women and children were pretty much seen and not heard. Little boys were groomed to become you know, leaders in the church if they did things but but women were not so some of their basic teachings is they don't believe in the Trinity. They believe that Jehovah is God and that Jesus Christ is his son, he came to earth to kind of show us the way and and to die to save us. They believe in the Holy Spirit, but not as in the Trinity they believe the Holy Spirit is more a force that supports God and and Jesus and will shed light to the governing body on and teachings or truths that come about. They believe that they are the only ones that have the real truth. And that if you aren't a Jehovah's Witness comes which you know, they take a look A lot of the Bible is literal, especially the Book of Revelation, when it talks about the coming of Armageddon, that is something that they take literally. And with everything going on right now in the world, this is another time that they're saying, Oh, well, it's the time is now, even though they've predicted that at least five other times, and they were wrong here, they're still hanging on. And so in their mind, what will happen is, if you're not a Jehovah's Witness, and Armageddon comes, you're going to die in Armageddon. And they don't believe in heaven or hell, they believe that you're just dead. And if you happen to be a Jehovah's Witness, and you're in good standing, and you've done everything correct, then you get to survive Armageddon, and you'll live forever. In a paradise earth, the earth will be recreated into the Garden of Eden that Adam and Eve started out in. And they will live in harmony with each other, and, you know, have the animals will live in everybody will be, you know, wonderful and happy. And it's not going to be like it is now where everybody has to work, it would be just a big, communal living, and people would just love one another. And if you had been a Jehovah's Witness, and you died, you would be resurrected. And you would come back to live on that paradise Earth. So that's the way they keep you living that way, even if their predictions of when Armageddon is going to come fail. You want to make sure that you're leading your life, perfectly up until your death so that you can become resurrected, and live in that paradise earth. And the caveat to not believing in heaven. And hell, the way most Christian religions believe in heaven in Hell is they do believe that his specific number of 144,000 people will make it to heaven, and they will help rule over the garden with Christ and His angels and all the archangels and Jehovah over the people that do reside on the paradise earth that 144,000 which they can never tell you, whether that 144,000 has been reached, how many are left? They have no way of vetting that because I asked I mean, my dad was an elder in the church, he was a presiding overseer, which meant the other ones other elders were below him. And there were ministerial servants below him. And I remember asking him, well, how do you know if they really are? And it's like, well, you just have to trust because if they're not, you know, Jehovah will know, like, but I mean, Jehovah's Witnesses have been around forever, they haven't met that 144,000 yet and globally. And, and he was like, well, that's not for you to question. You just have to trust that is and who isn't. And the only way we knew is every year when we had our memorial service, which is when they passed the bread and the wine around. If you were one of the anointed that were going to go to heaven, you would partake of the bread and the wine. If you weren't, you just passed it on to the next person. So the only way we knew if someone was of that anointed crowd is if you saw them, take a bite of the bread and drink the wine. Who would make that choice? If they were that individual? Oh, they would just say, Okay, I'm part of the one I know that I am. And huh, interests? self identified? Yes, that's going to create an interesting and elite ism within the religion, I would think. Yeah, you know, because there is a lot of elitism with that, because peoples for whatever reason, kind of thought that those people were specialists, the anointed, and they're going to get to go to heaven. And if you were an elder, or you were an elders family, you were like, looked at as someone above the others, you know, and if you were an elders child, you wanted to make sure that you were associating with the right people. You know, just not any other Jehovah's witness was good enough to hang out with because they might be bad association, because they may not follow all the little intricate rules to the tee. And they would be bad association. So you wouldn't want to see yourself with them. But you'd want to be friends with the elder or his family or we had people that dedicated their life to going door to door and we call those people pioneers. We would also have people that would move around the country and serve in different congregations where they were struggling to have enough participation or their trying to grow the congregation. So you would move and work where the need was greater, or spread yourself out that way. So we had full time pioneers, we had part time pioneers, we had people who would volunteer to go live and work at Bethel, which was the headquarters in New York, and where they did all their publishing and printing of the articles and getting the word out from the governing body. So if you were a Bethel light, that was even a different level of elite ism, so there's a lot of class structure to it, that you don't really know about, if you're not in it. And sometimes even when you're in it, you just think that it's normal. And you don't look at it that way. But reflecting back after you leave, you can definitely see the different layers and structures. Yeah, absolutely. So what was it that was your turning point of choosing out of this religion? Um, you know, I, I had a lot of influence from the kids that I went to school with, who really felt bad for me, because I didn't get to do any sports, I couldn't be in the school play. I couldn't, I couldn't go to any of the parties, I couldn't do anything. And so when I got to be the age that I could drive, and I went, I had my first job working at a grocery store as a cashier. And some of the people that I knew through school, or my co workers who were my age started just asking me questions. They weren't doing it to be rude or demeaning. But they were like, Listen, you know, why can't you do this kind of stuff? You know, we'd love to invite you to a party, but you always say no, and why can't you play sports? And so they started asking me a lot of questions. And when the answers that I gave them, which were the answers I got, they didn't just go okay, that made sense. They started pushing back and saying, Well, that doesn't make sense, what they would give me counter questions that I didn't have answers to. And I was like, I don't know. Yeah, and the only response I got back from my dad was, well, that's why you shouldn't be hanging around people who aren't Jehovah's Witnesses, because they don't understand. And they're gonna start getting you to think in ways that you shouldn't be thinking because it's going to be your downfall. And you just don't need to hang out with them. But I never got the answers to the questions that they were asking me. And when I got into high school, probably like my sophomore year, we got a new guidance counselor, who was also our psychology teacher. And normally studying psychology was kind of questionable, they wouldn't want you to study psychology. But I kind of convinced my dad that I needed to take it because there was no other elective course available. And I was trying to graduate early. And I needed it. And so I wanted to take it. When really it was I really liked that teacher. And he was asking me questions and teaching me thinking skills that I hadn't been taught before. This about it. And I used to meet with him during my study hall and ask him a lot of questions. And I grew up in a small town, it had maybe like, 400 people. The elementary and high school was all in one building, because I was 35 people in my graduating class, and it was the largest class in the school. Where did y'all was? Where did you? Where did you come? At this time in my life, where I went to school from fourth grade to 12th. I was in Iowa, a small town in Iowa, a small rural town. And, you know, of course, everybody in the school knew who the Jehovah's Witnesses were, because there weren't very many of us. Yeah. And so the teachers used to feel bad for us. So they would give us a little extra mentoring. And, you know, I just started talking to him, and he kind of taught me some critical thinking skills. And then when I was offered a scholarship to college, and I had to turn that down, because higher education was not encouraged and actually, around and in the Jehovah's Witness religion, and I wanted to go to school, and I couldn't accept the scholarship. So it went to someone else. I mean, not realizing that, okay, well, when you're 18, you don't need your parents permission to go and there's things called student loans. And there's ways for you to, you know, none of that had been taught to me, I didn't know about it. And so I just let it happen. And then I started to feel like this was just not adding up to me. And then of course, the big downfall came when I met someone. I met a guy that I was interested in, I was 18 and I started sneaking around so that I could see him. I became a very good liar and learned how to live a double life at the age of 18. so that I could see this person. And as most young adults do, I had sex outside of marriage, and they found out. And so I was publicly removed and eventually got to the point where I just didn't go anymore. And I just decided it wasn't for me. Did they take you in front of the congregation when you say publicly? So a public reproof is where when, when the elders hear that you've done something that's sinful, they will pull you into a judicial committee meeting, which is comprised of two to three elders. And they will ask you questions, and especially young women whose sin is a sexual nature, it is not uncommon for them to want to get every little detail and repeated over and over, it's like, disgusting. Yeah, of course, you don't know into that, you know, you don't care enough to know that. So I mean, once they decide that, either you're repentant or you're not repentant. One of the things that they don't feel like you're sorry, enough, they will disfellowship you and you're cut off from the organization, or they will publicly reprove you, which means you sit in the in the congregation, while they from the from the platform, say that, you know, you've committed a sin and that you are publicly reproved. And people shouldn't talk to you for a period of time until they determined that you paid the price enough. And so at the age of like, 18, that happened to me. And then I just decided that before they were going to disfellowship me later, because I I just quit going and I was living my life, like most people would think as normal, they were going to disfellowship me, but I decided I was going to disassociate myself. Because when you are disfellowshipped, from the Jehovah's Witness organization, you are completely shunned from everyone, including your family, which means they don't talk to you, you can't come over, they won't see you anymore, you are as good as dead to them. They cut off all kinds of any kind of support, whether it was financial support, or emotional support, or whatever. What I had been told at the time, this disassociation was new at the time. And what I was told was, if you take the action that you choose to leave, everyone's going to still shun you, but your family can stay connected. If you wait and let us disfellowship you then nobody is going to be able to talk to you. So I I decided I do the disassociation, because the hardest thing is losing your family, especially at that age at that age, right? Well, that was not true. What they told me was not true. And so even though I just I just felt disassociated, myself. The reaction from my family was actually worse than if I had been disfellowshipped. Because they were beside themselves that I would choose to leave. I was like, How dare you? Because now you have chosen to do this. And now you have me. And you have turned your back on Jehovah. And you know, so now it was really easy for the finger pointing to start. Yeah. And the more they pushed it, why it was my fault, the more I didn't want to come back. Yeah. So I had to be really challenging and hard to go through that young age. Yeah. So what I did is I moved away, I wanted to start fresh, I didn't want to be around any of those people that I knew I didn't want to, I just don't want to think about it anymore. So I moved to Tennessee. They followed me to to really your family. My family moved to Tennessee. They were trying to save me and keep me on bring me back at me to change my mind. You know, between them and the elders there, you know, you almost get stalked. I mean, they would constantly call follow you around and see what you were doing. Who are you talking to? And what are you doing and, you know, my calls about changing my mind. And so I moved again, you know, I moved out I moved to Alabama, and moved with a girlfriend of mine that I met through work and lived down there for a while and I got laid off while I was there and had a car accident. So I moved to Chicago where my mother's parents lived and they were not Jehovah's Witnesses. So I moved there with them. And I think that was part of my ability to move on is because I finally did have a little place where I could really learn about me and what was going on and how I wanted to move forward. I was very lucky that I had my grandparents to turn to because I A lot of people that are in my situation have nobody to turn to. And life is hard enough with a few people to support you, with no one to support you. It's sometimes his disastrous ending. So, man, I bet, wow, thank you for sharing all of that. I think that, for me, it's very eye opening, because I had no idea about a lot of those pieces. And, you know, it sounds like a lot of my goodness, a lot of trauma. There's a lot of trauma, there's a lot of high control, mind control, and just no room to think, or learn or grow. No self esteem or self worth, because there's no value, you certainly can't, can't think. And so, you know, what they always tell you is you'll never make it outside the organization. If you leave, you won't make it because everybody outside the organization is controlled by Satan, and all the demonic forces of the world. And so you won't know how to live and no one's going to help you because they're all evil. Well, that couldn't be farther from the truth, because most of the people I met who are outside of the organization, were very helpful to me, and very loving and concerning. No, you aren't given life skills. So you make a lot of mistakes you aren't taught must, you know, you really aren't taught how to function at all. Yeah, that taught how to manage finances or how to get a job because the focus wasn't on the jobs or going to school or building your life. Like most people, the focus was on making sure that you do everything, share your gifts within the organization, everything was about giving your money and your gifts to the organization, so that you could help spread Jehovah's word. So you could save as many people as possible before Armageddon. And because Armageddon is always around the corner, it's just around the corner, you don't want to focus on material things or bettering yourself because none of that is going to matter when Armageddon is coming. And you're going to live in a paradise Earth. So a lot of tactics, fair tactics, very narcissistic behavior. Which, unfortunately, when you're raised in a narcissistic environment, and you're taught that type of thinking, when you leave, that stuff is carried forward, and you do sometimes have trouble moving forward, you don't know how to make friends, you don't know who to trust, you don't know how to make a living, you have no education. So there are a lot of challenges to trying to move forward that people just don't innately know, especially people who are raised in that religion. Now, if you were an adult, that wasn't a Jehovah's Witness, and you lived a life, like most people, and as an adult, you become Jehovah's Witness, and then you leave, you at least have some of those basic skills that you learned. But for people who are children or raised in that environment, it can be pretty traumatic. Yeah. This is kind of a odd question. I'm curious, in your experience, Did you witness a lot of women choosing or having abusive partners? I would say that a lot of people in the organization, do you have abusive families. So just because of everything that you're sharing, it just I wonder if that is a common thing, especially for women to choose that type of behavior and a partner, thinking it's safe. And in all reality, it's very abusive. Yes. And the sad thing is, there's a lot of sexual abuse, and a lot of domestic violence. I'm not gonna say it's all all of all of the people there because that's true. But there is a lot of it, and a lot of it gets swept under the rug. A lot of it doesn't get reported, because they want to handle things within the judicial committee within the organization. So you are not supposed to report any of this to the police ever. Because you bring shame on Jehovah. So you let the elders handle the situation. And, unfortunately, for children, and I'm not going to say it's just female children can be male or female children, and women who are sexually abused or have domestic violence, and you go to the elders, what does well what did you do? Hmm, you know, maybe you aren't given your husband, enough have enough sex or your dues, you're not being a good wife? Or maybe you are speaking up too much, maybe Are you not an obedient wife? Are you not an obedient child? It's always put back to you. And if you were a better wife, or if you were a better child, you know, that wouldn't happen to you. So a lot of times people don't even bother because you're ashamed. And as I told you, they the questions that they ask you, especially for someone like me 1718 years old when they keep asking you the questions about what happened and what did you do? And why did you do this, and it's just very intimate that you don't want to talk about it. So people don't go and say anything because they don't want to talk about it. They don't. A lot of times the women have the punishment, and the guys are just, nothing happens. And I didn't realize how widespread this was until I left. I was gone many years before I started to help people. I was gone for probably over 25 years before I started helping other people who had been Jehovah's Witnesses. Because I didn't want to identify myself with that anymore. I didn't want to think about it anymore. Yeah, I didn't, I just wanted to step away. But then, when those pivotal things happened to me, and I started learning more about myself, and I wanted to help others, I started to find out how widespread some of the stuff was. And it was even more disturbing and more upsetting to me. Because by then, I had already been married, had children, not in non Jehovah's Witness organization, but I had what I considered to be a normal life compared to what I had had. And it just makes me sad to see how much stuff is swept under the rug. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So talk to me about how when you when you said it stepped out and you're moving from Tennessee, to Alabama, to which I love Tennessee and Alabama, by the way to Chicago, and you're, you know, finding your own way in the world. What did you do? And what have you done, since it has really helped helped you in healing those parts of you that need to be healed and moving to finding the beat of your own drum? Yeah, so initially, by the time I got to Chicago, I was probably 20, I did allow to happen around between 18 and 20. Because between 18 and 20, I was running away from right, I just wanted to be away. There's a lot of reckless behavior, you know, learning things, you know, hanging out with the wrong crowd doing stuff like that, but nothing life threatening or anything like that, at that point. When I got to Chicago, and I wasn't running from anything anymore, and I kind of had what I considered to be a safe environment, I started to really start to reach out and I wanted that growth. And I wanted to find out who I was. And the first thing I did when I stopped running, is I wanted to have what I thought was normal. Hmm. So I established normalcy first for me, and that was I wanted to get a job. I wanted to have a car. And I wanted to figure out how to make friends, right, that sense of community, because when you're in that organization, there's a huge sense of community. Not it's really surface community, it's really not deep friendships, like you're led to believe it's just that you all have something in common, and you can't associate with anybody else. So you become each other's friends and acquaintances, because that's all you have. It's not true friendship. So I wanted to make friends, and have a job and have my place of my own and just maybe take some classes at the junior college. So I did things that made me feel like I had a life. So I established routines that made it feel like I had a life, you know, every I saw everybody going to work. So I got a job, get a job. And then you have nicer things, you start buying clothes, you start doing going to concerts and doing things that you didn't do before. So that was the first step. And that was just very surface level. And then I got married. And I had children's. And like most people who don't know themselves and haven't really recovered from being in a high control religion, I didn't make a good choice in a partner. And so I got divorced, and I was a single parent and still working. And I had a career working downtown and corporate real estate. Excuse me. So I took leadership classes and self improvement classes and seminars that they would send me on so along the way as the years went by. I was picking up skills because of my job or interest that I had. I didn't take ces at the junior college and expanded my my world a little bit that way. And I met another individual that I married like eight or nine years after I got divorced thinking I made a better choice but even though I you know I became Catholic for a while, and so I went from one frame pan to the other right just a little different but I spent several years in the Catholic religion raised my kids that way, sent them to school in the Catholic school. And then, like most organized religions, you know, they disappoint after a while and you start the veil comes off, and you start to see behind the veil and it, I left. But it was after my divorce from my second husband that I really, really sat. And that's probably been about 12 years ago, or 12 or more years ago now. But it was after that second divorce, my son, a drug addiction, so I had to work through that. My daughter was away at college. So I was an empty nester, for real for the first time, I was living by myself divorced the second time children were gone son was the drug addict. And I stopped and said, You know, I may have left the religion and I know that that's not the answer. I'm not going to go back. But I haven't really done a lot to figure out who I am. And why does this stuff keep happening? Why can't I find the keys to normalcy and happiness? And how do I really move forward? Because I really, I've really haven't been happy, I've been existing. But I'm really not happy. And I want to find out how to do that. And that was when I met some other people who had been Jehovah's Witnesses themselves. And we kind of started talking to each other about what were we doing? And, you know, the group of people that I connected with, they really, and they didn't really seem to be doing any better than I did. But I really wanted to find out, well, how can how can I really connect those last pieces, I had been to counseling, you know, because early on, when I left Gen, and realize that things weren't as easy as I thought they were going to be when I left. Because the sound of leaving always is great, right? I'm leaving, I'm leaving, I'm going to leave Yay, I'm free. I don't I don't know what the hell I'm doing. And no support and no money. I did try to commit suicide. And so it's probably at the age of 21. So I started to see a therapist, and I had seen a few therapists and they get you so far. But when they haven't lived in that type of high control environment, a narcissistic religion, abusive relationships and families within the organization, and they don't understand the mind control. They can only get you so far, because they haven't they haven't lived it. So I met a group of people and the person who started the Empowered ex Jehovah's Witnesses, private group on Facebook. And I started to talk to them and do some of the programs that they have that help people rewrite their their mind to reprogram their minds. And then I started doing my own personal development. And I came up with a plan on why how I could move, move forward. And so after a lot of growth and a lot of learning, I have broken it down into four things. To know yourself, trust yourself, teach yourself and love yourself. It's a four step process. Now there's a lot of things that you have to do. But when I really boiled it down to me, those were the four things that you have to do and knowing yourself is because when you were in the religion, you didn't really do anything for yourself, you didn't really know who you were, you didn't know what you believed, because you weren't allowed to question or follow your own beliefs. You just had to do what you were told. And follow what you were told you weren't allowed to ask questions, you weren't allowed to broaden your horizons and read other things or go to school. So you were just a little shaped that followed everyone else. So you really have to know who you are. And that takes some time. It takes time it takes reflection. It takes a little bit of awareness and clarity. I have a lot of people who say, Well, how do you do that? And it's like, well, you have to sit in quiet. And you have to really trust what you find inside because your answers are all inside yourself. You just were never allowed to focus on yourself. You were never allowed to listen to that little intuition that you had inside that inner knowing that and so that's where my second step of teaching yourself comes into play. Because you get that reflection you get the clarity. You get the awareness by teaching yourself being open minded. You you weren't allowed to be open minded, you had small minds that Because you weren't allowed to question you weren't allowed to go to college and broaden your your knowledge, you weren't allowed to be with people outside of the organization. So you couldn't see things from a different perspective, you only saw their perspective, the one that they wanted you to see the things they wanted you to hear. And, and so you can't grow that way, you're kind of kept in a darkness, you're kept in a box. Yeah. So opening yourself up to personal growth, and allowing yourself to see things from different perspectives. And realizing that someone else's perspective doesn't have to work for you. But it doesn't make it wrong. But looking at things from different perspectives allows you to grow it allows you to have empathy for others, it allows you to have compassion for others, it allows you to see things differently. And maybe you don't change your mind, then. But it's okay to change your mind down the road, after you've talked to a few people. Maybe you change your mind about something, or maybe someone sheds a little bit of light on it. But you need to teach yourself a lot of different things before you can find out what it is you really believe. Because if you haven't looked at other perspectives, you don't know what you believe. So knowing yourself a little better by teaching yourself some things is very crucial and becoming authentic, and setting that foundation. And when you start to learn enough about that, that's where that third step of learning to trust yourself comes in. If you trust yourself, and you know what you believe in, then you'll become anchored. And you wouldn't easily be swayed by people. Before you know who you are and what you believe and what your purpose is, and why you're here, what your gifts are to share with other people. You could be swayed around like, you know, a leaf in the wind. But if you are grounded in what you know, what you believe, and you start to trust yourself that other people will start to trust you too. And you can become more confident and more courageous, you'll recognize that courage that you have within when you start to trust yourself. And people equate being courageous with big things. But being courageous isn't necessarily doing anything big or spectacular, or being a superstar, or superhuman. But it's being consistently authentic, and living your truth, the way you believe it. And being consistent in that every day. Your career courageous enough, away from that high control religion, you were courageous enough to walk away from that abusive relationship or marriage, you were courageous enough, just find out what you believe. Don't stop being courageous. Keep taking that stuff. You know, the, the journey is where you find your joy. It's not the destination, but it's the journey there. So be courageous to take that next step, you already took the first step to take the next one, and then the next one and the one after that. That's been courageous. And so if you can be courageous, and trust yourself, loving yourself comes next. And once you love yourself, and you live from the heart, and you show heart centered qualities and everything that you do, if you're if you show love, care, compassion, kindness, dignity, honor, courage, those are qualities of the heart. And when you put that out, and show gratitude, you weren't taught in our organization to be grateful for anything. You are just told you should be grateful. And that you should appreciate the kindness that that Jehovah is showing you and, and it's always in fear of making sure that you do everything that that he wants you to do so that you can survive. When you get out of that flight, or fear, you know, fight or flight. When you get away from that and you can really start living from gratitude. You get so much more abundance in so many ways. Doesn't have to be monetary, but it could be the type of people that you bring close enough to you. When you when you love yourself enough to know that it's okay to set boundaries. It's okay to say no, it's okay to change your mind. And by the way, it's okay to fail. Be courageous enough to fail. Because every failure is just a lesson. It's not something to be out. You know, you just you just have to take that next step. The other thing that I tell people very detrimental when you first leave, is, that has always been your identity. Always identified yourself as Mormon or Scientologists or Jehovah's Witness, you have to be open to change. Because you can't stay the same, you can't think the same and hang out with the same and always focus on that religion and what they did to you or what they still think, or what are they doing now, and move forward, you're still anchored by them, they're still controlling your thoughts and your emotions. So you have to realize that you outgrew them. And they're never going to understand you. Because you think differently now, and you act differently now. And it's okay to outgrow your friends outgrow your family. And just because they're your friends or your family, doesn't give them a license to mistreat you, it's not okay to be shunned. It's not okay to cut off and punish you because you want to think differently or feel differently. Yeah, so step by step and paying attention to that, because where you put your focus and your energy that becomes your world. Stop focusing on what they're doing now, or what they're going to do next, or what they think about you or what they say about you, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Yeah. So stop watching the videos about what they're doing now or get on those websites. And we all know they have them. They bash that religion or bash those people. You know, don't give that any attention or focus. Don't let them give you emotional control or blackmail anymore. Yeah. Don't you know what they're going to say? You know what they're going to do? Because you lived it. Don't be surprised when they do it. But don't give it any weight. Take your power back. Yeah. Now you co authored a book, what was the title of that book? Again, that book is called fear to freedom, fear to freedom, stories of triumph after leaving a high control religion? And we'll make sure and link that because you said it's available on Amazon. Correct. It is beautiful. And you have another book that you're currently writing. Yes, I'm impressed us of writing the book. It's changed its title a couple of times. But I finally decided, since I'm a heart, math, mentor, and coach now, I'm certified by Heart Math, love, love everything that they say and do. My book is titled, living between the beats, beautiful living, living and leading with heart coherence. So how long have you been doing the Heart Math. I've been doing life coaching and leadership development for a while. But last year I became certified. I have two certifications with them. Now. I might go for a third. But you know, I want to but the two that I have now. It's really awesome to see how living through heart coherence can just help so many people in so many different ways. They have 35 years of scientific research that backs what they do. They have they have fascinating research. I love the way they do. And you know, my favorite people that I heard about HeartMath was Gregg Braden, Joe Dispenza. And Bruce Lipton. And those guys were strongly influenced me. During my personal growth and development, I still listen to their stuff. And I kept hearing Gregg Braden talk about Heart Math. And I'm like, What? What is that? Yeah. And I started, I couldn't get enough of it. Because I've always been a believer that your heart knows. Your heart knows. You have that inner knowing, and that inner wisdom. You know, the mind thinks but I'm only learn to follow our heart. It just opened so much. For those that don't know what heart coherence is, would you mind just touching on that for a minute? Sure. So what Heart Math is all about is helping people build their own personal resilience, or having a resilience advantage, which means that you are learning how to prepare for, respond to and recover from challenges or stress in day to day life by building your own personal energy and changing your baseline so that when things happen, because you know they will everyday is not going to be perfect. You have this ability by connecting with your heart and your brain so that they are in coherence with each other. There's more neurons in your heart than there is in your brain. And when a fetus develops, the heart develops. So they speak about the heart Now neural cardiologist talk about the heart brain. So many people have heard about, you know, the brain in the heart and the brain in the gut. And, you know, the mind, everybody just assumes that the mind is first. But through scientific research, we have found that actually, it's the signals from the heart that come first, the signals from the heart go to the brain, and then the brain responds to the heart signals. And then the gut feels the body responds. So the heart leads, the body follows. So when you can work with rejuvenating emotions, replenishing emotions from the heart, you can activate more DHEA in your body, which is the good things, right? It's anti aging, it helps build your immune system, it, you know, really stress gives you clarity and focus, you become more kind and caring, and compassionate. And you can respond to, it's almost like you have this Teflon shield when, when things do happen, you can stop yourself in the moment, from feeling those depleting emotions, and bring yourself to a state of calm or ease. And then you can also replace those depleting emotions with rejuvenating ones like love care, compassion, and kindness. Beautiful, thank you. One of my favorite things about the heart that I learned years ago, was about heart transplants, how patients with heart transplants would have memories and tastes smells that they never had before foods that all of a sudden they started craving that they hadn't craved before. And that was always that was such a fascinating thing with that mini brain that does reside within the heart. So yes, that's very true. And, you know, what they have found is that you get to, you can choose your emotions, and you can learn how to rewrite some of the programs that you've placed in your own way. And you can replace. So what happens is, when an event happens, it's the way that you respond to that emotion. And if you are to the event with emotion, it's so if you have always responded to something with a stress emotion, you can reprogram yourself to replace that feeling of stress or anxiety with a different replenishing emotion over time. And HeartMath has some tools and techniques that you can use, and they have a lot of wonderful mentors and guides and coaches across the country that can help people learn those tools and techniques and help you learn how to rewrite those programs that we've placed in our, in our mind and, and choose different emotions, because we actually get to choose our emotions. That's what humans have the benefit of the rest of the animal kingdom doesn't is we have the emotions, we get to choose our emotion. And we can retrain our minds. You know, the power of choice is always a beautiful thing that we have in any situation with a lot of different dynamics, for sure. Yeah, well, I so appreciate all your wisdom, and you sharing your story. And is there anything else that you'd like to share? Oh, boy, just, you know, be you be authentic. Don't be afraid to try something new. And, you know, your past is part of who you are. And so always remember to embrace who you are all of who you are. Because if you don't face what the past was, and you accept what it was, and understand that it helped make you who you are, but it doesn't define who you are. And it doesn't determine what you can become or who you will become or what you can do. And just approach life with as much love and compassion as you can be grateful every single day. And love those around you. Beautiful, beautiful. Well, thank you so much, Cindy, and I'll make sure and link your information down in the show notes as well as how people can get that book as well. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you. I so appreciate you. Thank you for inviting me. I really enjoyed speaking with you. Me too. This has been fun. I love zoom. Thank goodness for zoom that we can exactly people all over. I used to hate it at the beginning of COVID. But I get used to it now I know. Yes it is. It's a beautiful tool to connect. So it is well thanks again, Cindy. Super, super interesting wasn't that I had no idea about some of those things with Jehovah's Witnesses and I am you know, this is what happens when you live in the the Utah Mormon bubble. I definitely didn't know very much about other about Jehovah's Witnesses. And so that was really interesting. And I so appreciated her her insight and the things that she's learned and I will make sure that I post her information down below and where you can grab that book Fear to freedom. And as always, wherever you are in the world, I hope you know that you are not alone. And your invitation this week is to have a little bit more courage of what can you do to step more and more in just a baby step of stepping more into who you are and who you are wanting to be. What is that tiny little step that you can make this week of following more and more of your heart and is always sending you all so much love.