Anna Ship. The Way Out Is The Way In. Our healing can come when reconnecting with what we feel hurt us.

Today I am sitting down with the beautiful Anna Ship. Anna shares her fascinating story of growing up in New Mexico. At a young age she experiences abuse, her mother passing and then her father leaving her life. Adopted by her aunt, Anna had many changes in her young life and is now Mormon with her adoptive family. The church, Anna says, was a safety blanket to her. It offered her comfort. The idea of Zion, she says, "this was it." In the community that she grew up in. "I embodied everything about the church."

Later on in life, after a marriage that she gave everything to - even sacrificing herself, she had experiences through her church that rattled her beliefs. For fourteen years, Anna shares, she was hustling to be the number one woman in her husbands life. It created a prison and she discovered that she was stuck. Her priesthood leadership was not great at the time and the experiences that she had with them would have caused her to leave. She was ready to walk away as she lost all respect for priesthood leaders. A book came into her life, "How to Love" by Thich Nat Hanh and it was a godsend to her at this time in her life.

Anna shares that she still has a lot of love for the church and still holds that there are a lot of truths there, she just now believes that it's universal.

During a conversation with her mother she asked Anna, "do you believe that God's work never fails? It's God's work and glory to bring past our eternal life, that's not our work. Our job is to love and we are on God's work table." This rang true to Anna.

Later, during a conversation with her bishop where she was not going to get her temple recommend, he said, "you know it's okay not to have a recommend. It's okay if it take a long time."  Anna shares that this was the first time in the church that she felt someone was telling her it was okay to have the journey.

With this thought that it's okay to have the journey and the belief that everyone is on God's work table, gave her permission to allow the pieces to fall.

God has me. There is no space he's not

LINKS:

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The Book How To Love by Thich Nhat Hanh https://www.amazon.com/Love-Mindfulness-Essentials-Thich-Nhat/dp/1937006883

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Transcript

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Welcome, welcome, welcome. I am so thrilled that you are here I am your host, Amanda Joy Loveland. And I am so excited about well, a few things. One, my book is at the editor as we speak, and will be coming to print here soon. And this is a guide book for those of you that have left religion and just a guidebook to knowing where to go next, like how do I find my spiritual center, what even is that my book is going to be something that you will love. And I'm also really, really excited I have a speaker symposium coming up April 24, here in Highland, Utah, this is an in person event only. And we are gathering some beautiful speakers that I'm really honored to share space with. If you're looking for more tools and more guidance, and more just learning where you can just eat up knowledge and eat up wisdom from others, come grab a ticket and spend the day with us. It's from 10 to 6pm lunches included, and the tickets are $149 for the day, so extremely affordable. And this is an event that I really really want to sell out as this is my first event. And I really want to grow these, I want to start doing more and more, you know spaces where we can gather and and teach and learn from each other, and really encourage each other to grow into those beautiful spaces and lean in. So head over to my website, Amanda joy loveland.com forward slash lean and to snag your ticket today. And I also have another retreat coming up in May 12 through the 15th. And this is for my writers, where are my writers, I know that you're out there. And if you were like me, I had a book within me for years. But I did not think I was a writer, I didn't know where to start, I didn't know how to begin, or maybe you've already started but you're not quite sure how to pull it all together. regardless where you are in that path. This retreat is for you. I'm co facilitating this with my beautiful publisher Kira Polson, who is so gifted, so wise and has so much wisdom. And together, we will be assisting you in how to spiritually create and write your book, and how to move through those places within you often it's the healing that actually we get to do with our books, that when we heal those places within the books come through, and come more in flow and ease and grace. So if you're feeling the call, we're just going to advertise this retreat, I know this one will sell out, head over to my website, Amanda J loveland.com. And go to the retreats tab, you will see the retreat underneath that, that link there. And without further ado, let's dive into the interview with my next guest that was just truly truly stunning. And so I'm really excited to share this space with a beautiful Anna ship. Well, welcome. I am so excited to be sitting here with Anna ship. And you and I have just kind of gotten to know each other over social media. And actually we're trying to connect in person and then life is just life. And so it's like, Okay, do you want to come be on my podcast? Because then we can kill two birds with one stone and get to know each other a little bit better? And then have you share your wisdom here. Thank you. I'm excited. You're here. Thank you for having me here. It's like I yeah, this has been something that I've been watching your posts watching, you know, listening in on some of these podcasts that you've shared and hearing other people's stories and just hearing. You know, the way that it's all acceptable, and the way that it's all lovable. Like I wanted to get to know you for very similar reasons. Like I just love what you share. And ironically, we have lots in common like we both lived in Germany, we both have like military ties. Now I do you have in the past and still do because your kid's dad is military. And you know, you're sitting here commenting that I have a lot of the same books that are on my bookshelf. So I'm like, I'm not surprised. Anyway, just fun. It's fun when we get to connect with like minded. You know, and this speaks a little bit because one of the biggest I just finished writing my leaving religion book, yay. And one of the things you know, as you go through when people are leaving is that community aspect, that it's like this interesting, double edged sword because you're so tired of the community. A lot of times people are tired of the community that's held within religion. And then they leave and it's like, crap. Now, where's my community? Right? And it's like, well, you just have to start looking and being open to it. Because then things like this happen where? Yeah, through social media, and you're like, Oh, hey, yeah, let's go get to know each other. And then you just start building new new connections. I feel like my circles are constantly changing because of that. Yes, I agree. Yeah. I feel like that's been my experience as well. Yeah. So you grew up in New Mexico? I did. Were you did you grow up Mormon? Um, yes. Well, yes. So I was adopted when I was nine. And that's later. So yeah, so my birth mom and my adopted mom are first cousins. So when my birth mom died, my mom's her cousin is my mom now. Oh, That's actually really sweet. That was hard for you though. And nine years old? Um, yeah, I can imagine it was in you know, like I really struggled to bond I really struggled to Yeah. To feel a connection. I think that there was a big part of me that felt like I would be betraying my mom, if I allowed myself to love another close. Yeah. Yeah. And, and then it wasn't until I was in therapy, like years later, like, when I was in my 30s, that I, you know, crying to my therapist and saying, oh, like I, you know, didn't have this bond with my mom. She's like, Well, you wouldn't, you're too old. And I was like, oh, but my sister did. And she was like, well, she was a little bit younger. And she was like, but yeah, like nine years old. That's, you know, that's kind of older, you're over that first period of where all the bonding usually happens. And so she was like, so that would be a natural struggle. And it was the first time it felt normalized, like, oh, it's actually okay. Like, I'm not abnormal for this where I thought that like something was seriously wrong with me or that I was unlovable or, you know, in some way, flawed in some fundamental way that I take with my whole life it takes is one person saying, well, actually, that's really normal. And you're, you're not weird, and nothing's wrong with you. Exactly. You're like, oh, even though I'm in my 30s, yes. Out, freeing. I had an experience with that with a therapist, and I, gosh, I had done so much work. And I was revisiting the first the first boy that I ever loved, we were going to, we want to get engaged or get married. Anyway, went through a lot of trauma, and I'm someone that I take full accountability for my choices. And yet, there's this fine line between Yes, and taking full accountability. And this, this happened to me, right. And my dad, my beautiful father, who did the best with what he could with what he knew at the time. And like, that wasn't a boy he wanted me to be with. And so he had done some things that ultimately led to me breaking out the engagement. But, and I, I was taking accountability. With that she goes, your brain, your frontal cortex, where all the relationship centers is not even formed. So of course, you'd lean on your dad because I thought I had this huge, like, I betrayed myself and not great things. And she's like, well, until you're What is it 25 I think is fully developed the prefrontal cortex, and that's where the relationship center is. And it was this Oh, logically, like, for some were funny like that, like a sigh. You're like, oh, okay, not just retarded, and trying to blow up my life. Exactly. I, you know, and that's, that's part of been part of my journey to step into full accountability and what it means to be 100% accountable for your life. And recognizing that those subconscious patterns and, like the way that we develop, and like what I know, now, the mind now, I had no clue back then. Right? You know, like, you know, something, my husband always tells me, You can't judge past you based on the knowledge that you have now. Yeah, like, in his, because I am really hard on myself sometimes. And I think I've always just been really hard on myself. And so that, that was one of the things that like, yeah, finding that balance of this event took place. And, you know, you know, like, with my parents and bonding, you can't meet needs that you're not aware of, yeah, and you know, and they had no idea, the depth of my needs, they had no idea the depth of the abuse that I had experienced before that. So like, they going into the best they could, yeah, and there was no part of it, that was, oh, I'm going to hurt her and like, make life harder for her. Right, you know, there, and I can recognize that now. You know, but at that time, or when you're trying to take accountability for things, you're like, I'm you're nice. You're so what was your dad, your birth dad? So um, so that's another interesting part of the puzzle is, so he came back for the funeral to take us but my, my mom's family, so he was from Mexico, okay. And so my mom's family was like, you know, he's gonna take them to Mexico, because, and I found out later, you know, just few years ago, I met him, he was pretty much homeless at that time, he didn't have a place for us. And so his only option really would have been to take us to Mexico. And, and so I think the choice was, if they're going to be with the grandma, they might as well be with the grandma that they know. So they hit me and my sister away. When he came looking for us, right, he went searching, asked all the neighbors and nobody would give him any information. And so, so he hadn't been in your life he had well they were like off and on all together your parents And he, like they got divorced, like right after my sister was born. I think they were convinced that like, by other family members that my mom could get better government assistance if they weren't married. So they got divorced and stayed together for a while. But you know, when things got hard, and you're not actually married anymore? So yeah, you know, it's really easy to split. And so and I think that that's what I understand that's what happened is things got hired on to so they were like, it was a very chaotic, never really stayed in one place for very long. Back and forth between California, New Mexico and Mexico. And so there was a lot of instability there. And so he really like he was in and out of our lives. And so like, we knew him, we loved him. But like, we really weren't, he wasn't a constant present, right in our lives. Yeah. So when he didn't come get us, like, you know, like, I think that there was a part of me that knew that he still loved me, but also knew he didn't come get us, you know, and so my family never really said, Oh, he didn't want you, or anything like that. I don't think they ever really lied about that. But I think that's something that I inferred. Yeah. Was that he didn't, you know, want me he didn't he didn't want Well, naturally. So, but there, but I learned later that there was a lot of dynamics there a lot of like, sounds like protecting us, to keep us in the United States, keep us where we would be protected. Yeah. And so now I can totally after having met him, and having met some of his family and seeing their lifestyle, it seemed like, can recognize the complete blessing that it happened the way that it did. Yeah. But it did open this whole thing. And a reality that I didn't realize, until in my 30s, that I had lost both my parents at that time. You know, I always figured like, and sort of held that space for the my mom was gone. Yeah. And that, but I never really, like, it wasn't a conscious thing of knowing, Oh, I lost both my parents, right. You know, and so, like, holding the impact of that later was like, Oh, my gosh, oh, oh, so like, all of that. And then there was sexual abuse before it was adopted. And after, like, buy from the original family. And, you know, like, all of that set the stage? Yeah. So much, like, difficulties like that I internalized as me being flawed. Right. You know, Yeah, unfortunately, that's what happens, especially when you're so young, everything. That's the irony, right? We're talking in our now we're adults, and like, Okay, we're gonna take radical accountability for how I'm showing up in my world and what's being reflected back. And yeah, as a kid, that is what we naturally do. How is this my fault, but it's more of that. And I feel like in the state that I'm in now, and I would think that this is the same for you. It's more, what needs to be seen and what needs to be looked at and a little bit with more compassion? Yes. And what's the lesson here so that I can clear it and move forward? Or shift the thinking or shift the pattern, whatever it is, as pigley? It's like, oh, my gosh, what's wrong with me that I keep it? You know, it is this very personalized, but in a not as healthy? Yes. Very negative. Yeah. So did you So you grew up Mormon with with a adopted family, so they had just joined the church, like five years before they adopt dressing? So how was that? Um, you know, it was good, good. Honestly, like the church was like, and the Mormon church. It was kind of a surrogate mother for me, where, where I struggled to feel like I fit in with my family, and, and feel like I belonged with my family. Church was an immediate home. No, you know, and I was Catholic before that, like, I'd taken my first Holy Communion and gone through catechism and and I knew the prayers, you know, and all those things that like, so I felt like I had a connection to God, you know, and I always felt close to Jesus. And so you know, the first couple Sundays that we were at church, it was really uncomfortable is very unfamiliar, didn't know anything. But then they saying how great that word, you know, and my granny's saying that all the time as a Catholic, you know, and it's just very Christian him and so like, that's where I found my home, you know, and people left me, you know, they accepted me I had good friends and where, you know, some people turn to cope with, you know, sexual abuse and stuff, they'll turn to drugs, they'll turn to alcohol or turn to promiscuity, and stuff, like I turned to purity. And it gave me such a blanket to cope with this that, like, I could, you know, get rid of all this pain, that, that I could get rid of the shame of all the stuff that happened to me. You know, and so like, it was a very warm blanket as a youth, like growing up like it. It was my safe place, it was my safe haven. And it wasn't until I was older, that I started to see there's flaws in the system. Yeah, you know, that they not everything I internalized it to be, you know, and where I had internalized it to be where, you know, your bishop is Jesus Christ himself, you know, incarnate here, representative, you know, and the, all these people that they love you no matter what, you know, there's never any judgment and like, and I had, like, such a pure experience with the church. Growing up as a youth, like, my friends group was amazing. I had the best support. And this was all New Mexico. Yeah. And, like, really, like, when you think of the ideas of Zion, you know, like, that was it, you know, like, we, like, just were really a tight knit group. And I mean, but there was a lot of us too. And, and so I remember like that being, I always looked forward to going to church. Yeah. And like, I loved the scriptures. I loved having a testimony. I loved bearing my testimony. You know, like, I mean, I embodied everything about the church, took it in, imbibed it all, like, everything. And it, it was my warm blanket. And so that was I have, like, really good memories. And so that's one of the things that like, I feel like helps me remain friendly with the church right now. Yeah, whereas there was one, I had a period where I could have walked away, and I would have been so angry and in danger of becoming really bitter. But Buddhism really pushed me back. Oh, interesting. What happened? Um, do you mind sharing? Yes. So um, yeah, so I, I didn't have any problems with the church really, until, like, much later. And it wasn't until my marriage was imploding. Like, I, my first marriage, I found out on my wedding night that I was a rebound. And I didn't have the courage to ask him about it. Until like, a week later, after the honeymoon was over and asked him, you know, like, are you still in love with your ex fiance? And he was like, Well, I don't want to be Oh, boy. And, and which was not the answer you want to know. And but I had such a laser view on eternity. Yeah, locked and loaded, that I'm going there. You know, like we are going to have, everything gets worked out. Eternity solves every problem. It can solve this one. You know, and so I like had so much faith in that. Yeah. But for 14 years, I I was hustling to become the number one woman I never became number one woman. And so as that was imploding on time, was that that's a long time to be hustling to be it is the number one woman in your partner's. But that's how deeply internalized I had this belief. And I had this hope that eventually it started to create this prison. Yeah, you know, yeah, that I and it wasn't until I started to see that, like, I was stuck. And then I in started to feel like, this belief isn't helping this belief is actually creating a lot of pain. For me. We got divorced, and you know, priesthood leadership, at that time, was not great. You know, how to Bishop that. Like, I can guarantee he never sat there as a young man and ever said, I want to be a bishop one day. Like, you can just tell that was not his aspiration. Yeah, you know, and, and not because he wasn't kind or anything, but he just I think struggled in the interpersonal you know, and so, in his approach was, like, I don't feel like I can help so I'm just gonna make it worse if I say anything, so just ignore it. And so so then I went, you know, to stick president and State Prison was like, Well, are you perfect? You know, like, and I mean, there was some significant things going on, like, I mean, there's sexual assault, there was infidelities there was, you know, active addictions and things that were really, really painful. And I was having a really hard time reconciling how it fit within the gospel and how it fit within worthiness, how it fit within the eternal family unit, you know, and, and I was having so much trouble with that. That, like, I lost all respect for priesthood leaders. Yeah. And I was like, never again, I will never talk to a priesthood leader again, I will never ask them for help, I will never like rely on them ever again. Of course, that wasn't true. I next Bishop, I tried talking to next Bishop I tried talking to, you know, and the next two actually, were really good guys. And they're very kind. But it was between the first bishop and the second good Bishop that, like, I was ready to walk away. Yeah. And, and I had this little book come up on my Facebook thing that said how to love and it was by Tikka Han. And, and I was like, and I saw that, and I was like, well, that's interesting, you know, and, and I was just at this point of, in the middle of my divorce thinking, like, do I even know what love is? Like, is love even a thing? Like, Does it even exist? You know, like, maybe I have it all wrong. And so I started seeing this book come up again, and again, in my feed. And I was like, Okay, I'll take white, you know, and so I bought it tiny little pocket book. And I just bought because the Zen master was describing the love I was experiencing from God, that was completely different than what I had experienced from church where, like, I was starting to really pull away. And as I was pulling away to get myself healthier, I would have all these leaders or friends be like, be careful that you're not being deceived. You know, because I was setting boundaries, I was recognizing, you know, going to therapy and getting you were having educated years. And I was getting educated on cognitive dissonance and all of the different cognitive distortions, and you know, things like that, and starting to see them in the way the gospel was taught, starting to see them show up in the way that we treated each other for being different, or not toeing the line of the gospel. And it started to like, shift things for me. And so I'm dealing with all of that. And then, and I reached this point where I was like, why would I stay here? Like, there's all these distortions all over the place, black and white fallacy everywhere. And I, you know, like, I was really pulling back my authority to myself, and, and starting to get clear that like, No, my connection with God is preeminent above anybody else's counsel above anybody else's. And and I started, like, if I started vocalizing that, that Be careful, you don't want to outdo the you can't. You don't want to suggest that you know, more than the prophet does. It's like, well, no, but I know more for me. Yeah, you know, and, and so coming into that space, I started studying Buddhism, and I went to my first meditation center, and like, what I had always recognized as the spirit, my whole body was filled with it. Every Harry was standing on end, I was warm, I was filled with this energy. And I just felt so at home. And again, I cried, because it was like, this is not where I have always felt at home. And where I had what always had been a warm blanket, wasn't feeling like a warm blanket anymore. And so as I started studying Buddhism, one of the concepts is that if you feel hurt by someone or something, you know, the first response is to walk away from them, or to, you know, be angry and blame them. But what you should really do is go back to them for the comfort that you actually were seeking from them. And I thought, well, you know, if that's true for relationships, maybe I needed to try this with the church. So I went back and had a really kind bishop, and really kind of stake president. And it was at that point that I realized, oh, okay, I can still have my autonomy. There could still be really good people. And I can still no, this is just not my place anymore. Yeah. And it's just not where I find like my connection. God in, in the place that worked for me, you know, and and I feel like I really needed that bishop in that state president to be as kind and loving as they were to me to help me recognize, I don't have to, like be angry, like, I can just know. Like, just not working for me. Yeah. And I don't have to fight against it. I don't have to try to tear it down. I can remain friends with it. Yeah, that is an interesting distinction that you're making there. Because I think that is natural that normally we walk away because we are angry. And it. And it's interesting, because even I mean, when I left, that was kind of the thing that people my family would say to me, Well, who who upset you? You know? Yes, that's just you know, and that was kind of their understanding of that must be why I left, right. Or do what you were saying, you know, with how that's natural for people to walk away from a relationship when you're upset. Instead of like, oh, no, actually, this just this isn't. I don't believe this anymore. Yeah. And that's why I'm leaving. This just isn't my place. Exactly. And like, go back and receive the comfort to resolve the pain, and then just make a decision from that point. Yeah. You know, and that is where true that true inspiration that true intuition comes in. When it is from that peaceful, calm place. Yes. You know, as you're talking about the Spirit coming in, in a place that was wait a second, you know, a little different than what you would experience. When I was I think I was 20. I had gone on a date with a guy that I had met on Matt on I don't know what dating site it was. And he took me up to this month monastery up in Ogden Canyon, they like they harvest bees and honey or harvest honey with me. And we went and listened to them chant in this beautiful temple that I had no idea it existed up there, when I'm sure it still exists to this day, I've never been back since. And they stood in there. And they felt the same thing. Like, we were sitting there. And it was like I was so overcome with filling the spirit. What I knew is the spirit. It was so confusing to me. Yeah. And like, How can I be sitting here with these at this monastery listening to these, you know, and then I had to kind of rationalize and make sense of it and fit it into my Mormon beliefs, because I write Mormon for a little while. But that was one of those things of Wait a second, because we associate that with Mormon religion, exactly. Like it has a monopoly on that feeling and a monopoly on, like, where you can get it. Yeah. In reality, it's just true. It's just your soul going, Yes, this is true. This is beautiful. This is you know, the spirit. Exactly. Whatever that looks like. But in so you decided at that point, you decided you were done? Not quite. Yeah, it took us I mean, those, I mean, the pull of community, right, the pull of familiarity. You know, it took me a while. I think, you know, I started to feel like how can I do this, that respects both the church and me, like, because I didn't want to, like, separate in a way where I felt like you know, I needed to announce it, or anything, you know, like, and, or. And one of the things I recognize right off the bat was that, like, I, I didn't feel like the garments were. They didn't have the same meaning for me anymore. And, and I recognize I was only wearing them out of habit, which I think that if you make a promise, and I believe in the power of a promise and making covenants like I don't. And here's the thing, like there's so many things I still fully believe, but just in a very universal way now. Yeah. Like, like, my path took me where it's like if something is true, and then it will be unchanging and unconditionally applicable to everybody, all at the same time, regardless of their awareness of it like gravity. You don't have to have a huge awareness of it. You don't have to study its principles to understand that it affects you and applies to you. Right, you know, and, and as I said, that definition then God in the end mean, when you start applying God, this concept of God, in that definition, it's like waiters, exactly. Well, and that's the thing like, and because huge pieces of my testimony were like taking big hits, like why wasn't God doing anything about men who were being unfaithful to their wives and still being able to serve in the temple? You know, why wasn't God doing anything about these huge betrayals, and for a sin that's next to murder? Right, you know, like, and so that was one of the things I was like, does God really care? And, you know, and so some of these questions like I started, like, really piecing I was like, I don't think he cares. I think we care. I think we have our labels And our definitions over these things. But I think, you know, I don't think God's turning anyone away, who who's seeking them, you know, if, if he's a personified being, and God is love, and that was another thing that like, my daughter was really concerned about what happened to us now as a family. And when I got my sealing cancellation letter, the letter said that my kids still had to qualify for being sealed to me and their dad. And that just sort of rubbed me the wrong way. It was like, they had absolutely zero apartness. Right. Like, and it was part of that thing where it was like, you know, if God is love, if that's if that's a true doctrine that God is loved. And whatever love is, God has to know if I love my children, and I choose them, no matter what, then I believe God's going to be there too. And so like, I, so the best answer I could give, my daughter is like, I there was no way I was going to read that to her and tell her well, you have to now hustle for it. Like you now have to live your life so that you can stay sealed to me and your dad. And for me that just like, I couldn't hold that. And so I just told I was like, you know it, I believe in agency. I believe that, that where God is that love is there, and I choose you, no matter what, I don't care what happens in this life. I don't care what anybody chooses. I don't care if anybody stays in the church or doesn't stay in the church. And my mom actually gave me just I don't want to say it's a freedom. But I guess it is a freedom. When my daughter was 11. And she was really pushing back against the church, she was really angry at God that he didn't, you know, save our marriage. And she was really angry that the divorce had actually happened. And I was talking to my mom about it, it was like, you know, so worried about her like, and this isn't I'm still very Mormon at this. And I was like, I'm so worried about her, like, I'm so worried about her future, like, you know, she's angry at God, she's not going to get the support she needs and you know, all these things. And my mom just looked at me and she was like, Well, Anna, do you believe that God's work never fails? I said, Yeah. And she was like, well, the Scripture says that it's God's work and glory, to bring to pass, you know, our eternal life. She was like, That's not our work. Our work is to love. And she was like, if you believe that God's work never fails, and you believe that she's on God's work table, then you don't have to worry about where she's at. Because she's never lost to God. And that to me, like I will say, gave me permission to let the journey unfold. And that was what sort of gave me permission to like, and also my bishop just was so kind and loving. And so like, you know, and I was so worried about not having my temple recommend, because, you know, it would have been the first time that I didn't have my temple recommend, and I I was struggling to pay my tithing at the time, because it was tied to my ex husband, because that was the only money I was getting at that moment, you know, and I was like, No, my eternity cannot be tied to him. For one more second, I cannot have any part of my salvation dependent on him. Right. And so I wasn't paying it because I like, I was so confused. There was so much like, of this dissonance of having to still be connected. No, and, and I and I remember crying about, like, not being able to, you know, have a recommend, and I remember him just being like, you know, it's okay. If you don't, you know, it's okay. If you if it takes a long time, you know, and it's sort of like I was the first person in the church to get permission to have the journey to, I mean, at least to open me up to the idea, right, that it's okay to have a journey. Yeah. You know, and, and I think I really actually needed that to come from within the church, because I think that, like, it just made all of it, okay, like my journey within the church. Okay, my journey without the church, okay. Like, all of it gave permission that all of it is on God's work table, whether I'm in an institution, or I'm out in the wilderness, you know, like, God has me there's no space, he doesn't take up. Yeah. And there's no space he's not aware of. And so those two together sort of gave me permission to allow the pieces to fall. So I could start picking up and for me, if truth is, like, if it's not unconditional, and universally applicable to everybody, I can't call it truth. Yeah. And so for me, that's where I'm at. So I do still believe in the priesthood, but I believe everybody has the power to act and everybody He has has the power to act with the elements. Everybody has that power to command, you know, the universal energy that's in motion in constant motion, we all have access to that. So I don't believe that it's just for men, or just for men within the church. You know, I, I believe it's everybody, even a small child can claim that power. And so I feel like, you know, your marriage, like, if the ceiling ordinance is about offering the promise, then it's the daily choices that we make with our partners that bind us together or not. And so like, that power, the covenant, I believe that it's there to awaken us to the idea of an eternal principle, that what we put together, can stay together, you know. And I feel like that that's a truth. And but it's true for everyone. And it's not just, there's not just one place, or one way to get there. You know, and so like, there's a lot of things that I still very much believe. But in a very universal Yeah, way, you know, and so I love all that. If you ever listened to the Christ letters, no, but Angie recommended those Yeah, she I think that's recommended it to me, too. Yeah. And I, I think you just started, she had, and I've shared a little bit of this on with my story. But for me, when I left religion, God died. Like that Mormon version of God just he was gone. And with it, like the foundation of everything, I remember sitting in my bedroom at the time, just looking outside and nothing had substance to it anymore. And it was like the weirdest feeling. And then I just sat with that. Okay, source, I can identify with source every time I saw God, instead of it triggering me because it used to trigger Yeah, you know, I replace it with source spirit. And it took me a little bit to get to that. And so I just kind of made my peace with that for a while. And then when this podcast came up on the book, I had different experiences of like, okay, now you get to go revisit what God is. And I was scared. Actually, I was not I didn't know if I wanted to go ask that question for myself. And I think around that time, Angie, and I were having a conversation, I can't quite remember. So I started listening to the Christ letters and the Christ letters essentially are saying that, a if God is unconditional, right, then that means these things that we put on him are completely on him, you know, we will say him, but that's we don't know, right? Is really ironic and hypocritical, because an unconditional love with you know, does not mean well, this area of the world, I'm going to create a tsunami in this area of the world, I'm going to create a hurricane and write earthquakes. And the trouble is, it's not God ran in this, it talks about how actually it goes into science and goes into the quantum realm, and how us as humans, as a species actually will create the own calamity in that world, wherever that is. So Steve, you know, say we're in Utah, and we all our love and light and harmony, while we're probably going to have balance in in the land, versus somewhere else that may have a lot of fighting and, and more anger than it would bring that up within the planet and that location, to have fires are how floods are have. And to me that, that makes make some, especially with the foldings that I have now. And and you know, and then later, I actually sat in meditation, I'm like, alright, what is God, you know, show yourself and and what came through for me was this ball of energy, essentially. I mean, it was faceless, and nameless and genderless. And, and I think that's part of the thing to at least, for me, like, with my clients, if there's some sort of a piece they need to make with some aspect or some person, usually I'll guide him to a meditation to where they can pop that part out and have a conversation, right? Because the mind if I can identify, and actually I know I can speak English with this person, and I can ask a question, then I'll get an answer. But if there's a blob LIS form that I don't even know what it looks like, exactly, so nebulous. Yeah, how do I, you know, and there's some of me that's still working with that. So I noticed I work more with Christ than I do with God. And that's a whole other conversation. But yeah, God is is such an and there's so many types of gods and then so many filters in the way that people communicate to what God is. And so it is so different. Yeah. For every single one of us. Well, and that's one of the things that like, I feel like I'm, you know, before I left the church, there was, you know, all this pressure to, to, you know, read the scriptures because that was President Monson. His last testimony was to read the Book of Mormon to read the Book of Mormon. I couldn't I felt so betrayed. Yeah, by all the promises that reading the Book of Mormon would save my marriage that it would save my family and priesthood blessings about, like, if you read the Book of Mormon every day, like it will, you know, save your marriage and, you know, things like that, and you know, didn't, I rang, it's not going to know. And we were like, fabulous. I mean, many things about the church we weren't great at. But we were great at praying together, you know, and so in which prayer was always you know, that that great binder, you know, the saver, and, and so, like, seeing all these things fail, you know, it, I wanted to be obedient, I still had that pressure to still be obedient. And I couldn't pick up the Book of Mormon, I felt so betrayed. I felt betrayed by promises, I felt betrayed by the book itself. And so I was like that, not picking it up. And, and I felt like, well, you know, like, if you want to just read the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Stay there, stay there for like, two or three years. Yeah. Just getting to know Christ life, you know, and it was through Buddhism that I started, like, actually started questioning, like, well, who was Jesus, you know, and, and started learning about, you know, the students who, you know, emulate the master, but don't look at what the Masters doing with what he's doing. You know, and, you know, there's that story of, you know, the, the teacher that took his students out on a hill one night, and so they were all watching him and very closely at what he did, and at one point, he raised his finger and smiled. And so they all started, you know, changing their body position to, to match him and to point and, like, make sure that their arms are pointing in the same way and to, you know, make sure that they their face was, you know, at the same angle, and, and whatnot. And, and one student looked at, where's the teacher was pointing, and he smiled, too. And, and so I think that there's this where I recognized for me, that I think I had done the same thing where I had got so caught up in Jesus, and the idea of Jesus and being inferior to just like, unworthy to like, very much on a pedestal. Yeah. And where I could you know, like, everything about Jesus just showed me how inferior and how like, yeah, awful I was, you know, I was not measuring up in any way, there is no way I was not coming out, look and look very Christ. Like, in release in the stories we've been told of who Jesus was exactly what we think we know. Right? And, and so it wasn't that at that point, like, where I recognize, oh, like, am I looking where he pointed, and then I started reading from that perspective, I started recognizing, like, he was never pointing the finger at himself, he was always pointing it at God. And always, like, saying, Look to the Father, kingdom of God is within, but, you know, always look for God, look, look for the Father. And and so it wasn't until I got in this place where one time I was just like, okay, and looking at God, and I'm trying to, like, define my relationship with God trying to define, like, what I'm actually observing in real time of what I think that God is showing me and what I'm actually observing versus everything I've been taught about what God does, and recognizing God's not striking anybody down, who's sitting, you know, God's not withholding any blessings from people who are sitting, right. And we're all creating our reality. Yeah. And so like, I, you know, that broke apart some things and, and then I started, you know, learning about you know, the nature of eternal spirit that's always connected and that that's the reality and that this human life is the dream. Right? And, and there's just this click one day and I, I was coming home from doing some errands, and I sat my driveway and I just cried, because I was like, Well, who is Christ to me if I'm his equal? Who is Christ to me if he's not any different than me? Yeah, you know, and so like this whole thing just shattered. Of because I felt the truth, that of our equality with everybody. I felt the truth of Buddha just being another person, walking his journey, and reaching this state of enlightenment, and recognizing the connection that Jesus was living his life. reach the state of enlightenment. And, you know, Muhammad. And you know, there's these three seems like three main gifts that they all displayed in, walking their journeying. And we are hung up on these three gifts. And really, I feel like they were all saying, follow me so that you can find your gifts. Follow me to your genius, follow me to this, you know, and where Jesus healed and served with his genius. You know, Buddha did stuff with the mind and correcting beliefs and recognizing the delusions of the mind, Mohammed. I mean, I don't know too much about that. But I know that it led him to, to bow and sing praises, you know, and they all did things in their own way. And I feel like we've gotten so caught up on the things that they did that we lost what they were leading us to, yeah, you know, and so that's where I feel like right now, like, if Jesus were to walk in the room, you know, five years ago, I would have like, hit the ground, crying, bawling. I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy, you know, where now if you were to walk in the room and be like, here's my dude, like, Hey, have a seat? Exactly. Let me pick your brain let you know, get a conversation. Tell me yeah, let's have a mastermind, you know, like, I would, I would feel like on the same level. And so there was this huge religious crash, I guess I've recognized on my equality with Jesus. And I didn't feel like it made me made me otherworldly. But I didn't feel like it robbed him of his other worldliness, either. You know, like I it was just this equalizing force that, and I feel like since I stepped back from worshiping Jesus, that now I'm like, actually able to digest some of his words in ways that like, I never would have ways that are like actually changing me, changing the way I relate to other people, and the way that I see unmet needs instead of people trying to harm me. That's all so beautiful. And what the same that keeps coming to my mind is as above, so below, as within so without, right, yeah, and I feel like all three of those that you're speaking to, that is one of the constructs that they they were living, you know, we're all connected, we're all one. And I as you're sharing all this, one of the things that has been sitting in my mind lately, and partly because I just facilitated a receipt, retreat with all women. That was probably one of the most stunning retreats I've ever facilitated, because every single one of those women came in with no judgment. No, I'm better than, you know, or you're better than Yeah, it was like i i Even though these women were very different backgrounds, very different experiences. And the, the beauty and the magic that was able to be held in that space, because of that was just, I mean, there's no word like, I get chills talking about it. And I was thinking, I was talking to my beautiful friend on the way home and we were just talking about that with, you know, just with women in general. And, and it's bringing this up as you're talking, we have this tendency, you'll see like the little memes that go around as far as you know, straightening another woman's crown, kind of Oh, yeah. And, and supporting our sisters, and it goes with men too. But especially with women. And as you're talking about this with Christ, I'm like, no wonder we struggle with the idea of being able to no matter where we're at, to see each other eye to eye to let that ego kind of take a backseat of, there's no better than or worse than it is a journey. And I'm grateful for where I'm at, and I'm grateful for where you're at. And hey, let's like you said, let's have a conversation. Let's have a have a mastermind and, um, you know, one of the things that I feel like, Would Jesus I work with him a lot, like he's on my little my counsel, right? Bring him in, I'll bring Mary Magdalene I'll bring mother Mary in a lot. And we'll have conversations, right? Because it's like, hey, help me with what I'm supposed to do here. And in fact, this is a Magdalene rose that sitting on on our on our table. But God to me, is this co creative energy. Yes. Not a codependent to where to me, this is my my filter. And my I'm just going to caveat it with that, that it is this not dictated this is what you should do. And if that's what I receive, because I'm asking, then I get to check in with is that what I want to do? Right? Yeah, there's kind of this co creative dance of, of getting out of the way and being in flow with life. Yeah, I don't know if this is making any sense, but I loved everything that you shared, because it is such an interesting dynamic of the constructs that have been embedded so deeply within the holding of the planet. And then also the holding within our psyche. Yes, subconscious just constructs constructs one after another. after another, you know, you need to listen to these people, Jesus died for your sins and you know, put them on a pedestal and let's keep worshiping his death exam, not actually what he was here to do and what he was doing, which was actually showing, he was showing himself what he was capable of, and in turn, also awakening that we can do. Yeah. And that's what I feel like I that's the other thing that I feel. So I agree with you that I feel like God is the source and I'm the creator of my life. And, but I'm a co creator with everyone else who has a part in my life. Yeah, and so nothing's ever gonna just be dependent on my thoughts. And so there's a certain element of surrender to what I can't control, and to have take full ownership of what is with than my control. And I feel like, it's funny that you're, that you brought up the trusting the flow, because that came up. I've been processing for the last few days, my money story, my love story, all the things that I felt I deserved or was entitled to, or that I didn't deserve, or wasn't entitled to. And, and one of the things that, like, you know, talking to Angie and, and she brought up, you know, the idea of being in the flow no matter what, and accepting the flow of life. And I feel like that's where I'm kind of landing is this understanding that number one, I don't have to trust anybody else. Like, number one, because they've got their own lens, their own perspective, right, their own creative power, no matter who they are. Exactly, yeah. So I don't, I don't have to worry about trusting them. But then it was like, there was this idea that like, you can trust yourself. And I feel like there's, I'm learning in a place where I'm recognizing, I never know what I don't know. And so putting the trust in myself, like when I have ego, and I have these faulty programs, that doesn't seem so like, great either. And so where I'm landing is like, I can't trust the laws, I can trust that there is perfect order in the world right now. Because everything is following the law of cause and effect, I can trust that there is perfect order, in me, because I am personally following cause and effect. So if I feel an effect, then I need to get curious about what the cause of that effect is. And because that's my experience, and but bringing love to it is going to be the way that like I can bring love to other people going through a similar experience. You know, and so I feel like the flow, where I think that there's a little part of my tiny little seven year old inner child, it's like, no, the flow hurt me, please, you know, like, I can't trust the flow. I think that's, I think a lot of people might that language, sometimes could, when you've had difficulties in like, real big traumas, that when you weren't, like you didn't have power, like, especially in those first seven years, where you are absolutely powerless and completely dependent on everyone else. When you've got a lot, there's like trusting the flow. There's huge resistance there, the flow was not kind to you, when you received all those kinds of traumas when you're that little. Yeah. And so coming into a new awareness that the flow actually is the loss. And it's, you know, this energy that is always moving, and coming into co creation with it, and recognizing that, like, I don't have power over these things that happened. And maybe I don't have to come into acceptance of them. Like they were a good thing. I don't have to, like, honor that. People who are abusive, I don't have to honor the event that robbed me of power. But what I can do is just at least come into agreement with reality that it happened, and leave it there. Yeah. You know, and then own my power now. And, and so it feels like that's where I feel like I'm landing in that, like, trust in trusting God is like, that's the only place that there needs to be trust. If there is such a thing as trust, you know, like, and maybe it's just acceptance. I don't know, I think there's a part of me that I'm still working through. Yeah, the language around trust, because there was so much that wasn't there. Yeah, that I'm not going to trust my faulty programming. Because it gets me into trouble. Sometimes. I'm not thinking, you know, and I'm, I'm not going to trust other people's faulty programming, but I can trust that there is perfect order, and I can get curious about that order. I all that was beautiful. And there's a few things that I would offer to that. One, have you listened The Four Agreements? Yes. So I'm really listening to it right now. You know, and it's funny because when we listen to books, I'm like, Oh, I don't even remember this part. The book, and he's talking about how, you know, while we may believe or not believe that we chosen to each experience, you know, depends on your belief you are, say religion or even abuse. You let's use religion This is easier to you're a part of this because your family is and at some point you do make a decision to have faith in it. Yeah, like there is a decision some sort of a bias in it somehow. And in some ways you could like the abuse, not necessarily, because abuse is a tough one, right. And the irony is, is, I would say 90% of humans have had some sort of abuse in their formative years totally. Which is really interesting. Because what happens then is you do create a program in the subconscious mind of, let's say, it's, I'm not worthy, because this is happening, or I'm not worthy of love, or I'm unlovable, then you have that program that's running through your life, everything until you clear it. This is why I love NLP, which is neuro linguistic programming for anybody who doesn't know what NLP is. And with that, in my experience, I think, absolutely, we get to a point to where we can trust ourselves. Because at the end of the day, everything is an internal, everything that is externally representing to us. We're seeing these things happening in our world. It's always a reflection of our inner state, always. And I think that that's one of the most beautiful things about life is it's always giving us feedback. And it always comes back to here. And so in as you're sharing all this, I think I agree that the the laws of the universe are formative. But one of my favorite favorite stories is about being an irony that shamans practice and it is being in right relationship with self. And there's different stories. Have you ever heard of this? There's interesting different stories that are told. And then in shamanism, by the way is 100% passed down through just oral language like just verbally, it's not written down. Oh, so it's really interesting, some of the things that have been passed down through the generations. But there's stories about in Machu Picchu, there were there were fires. So they call on the shamans to come and help you know, clear the fires, calm the fires. And all these shamans come in and they start drumming and rattling and doing all this around the land. And one of the female shamans comes in and asked for a hut to stay in. And she's in there for about a day and a half, and she comes out in the fire stop. They asked her what did you do, because they knew it was her that stop that did something she said and she said I went within that heart and I went within myself to find where I was out of alignment. And when I brought that into alignment into Amy, when I did that within myself, it reverberate it down to the land. Because when we get into quantum physics, when we get into the quantum realm, we do see that we all hold this amazing energetic blueprint and that we are connected to all things. So when we write things within ourselves 100% Does it reflect in our outside world? And so again, in my experience, and I feel like what I teach in the even this podcast with how do you find your spiritual center, you get more and more into that place to where you do trust 100% Even if it's wrong, you know that it has served a purpose, right? Okay, I'm going to make this decision because this is what feels right right now. And maybe I'm making it from a place of fear but okay. And then you know, you you experience what you experienced, but in that context, then everything is just for learning and for our souls. Evolution and in my belief, God in us are so intertwined that as we grow he he grows again, I'm using key as an ambiguous whatever. And as God grows, we grow like it is this well, and I do love the idea and I find A Course in Miracles where it's like that we're all literal extensions of God. Yeah, you know, and so I don't know I kind of like, it makes sense. If we think of God as an ever expanding concept, you know, that consciousness is always growing consciousnesses always expand. We're always ever evolving and I don't think that we would never I don't think we would ever cease to Stop rowing. And so the idea that there might be a finish line somewhere like I think that's one of the things is like, I feel like my mind can't fully grasp it but I my spirit senses it and said there isn't whatever there's no arrival there's something Yeah, like that. It's cyclical, you know and and that's the thing that I feel like letting go of the linear path is opened me up to like, recognize that everything is a cycle and and maybe one day like and I like the idea that that one day I could get there where I would trust myself but I think right now like I just so aware of my programming. Yeah. Well, we can click that Like he's and I think that like as the little inner child like She just wants to feel safe. And I think she just hasn't quite grasped that, like the reality that there's no such thing as safety, law of impermanence everything is in flux. Yeah. And you know, and that's where that religious programming creates such a warm blanket is to have answers to every you don't have that average deductibility. Yeah. Like and, but to, to go out into the unknown. You know, that's where this little seven year old Insight means like, but yet, oh, no, and, and, but there's this part of this 40 year old part of me is like, we get to learn, you know, and I can be doing this new curiosity in this new you know, recognizing that, like, you know, I may not be able to keep myself safe from getting hurt, you know, I may not be able to keep myself safe from experience experiencing pain again, in some way, some major way. Like, I have no idea what life has in store, you know, and so like, but I think, coming into acceptance that, you know, whatever this thing is that God is like, that is connected to all intelligence that is connected to the universal consciousness of all things. There's still a way to tap into that, you know, and so and I think that's the thing that like, I'm kind of landing on with this idea of the flow in the idea of like, it's not something I've been able to digest yet. But I love the idea of and you know, I love the idea of that, like, maybe one day, I'll get to the point where I can recognize the programming so fast, they can sink right into the universal consciousness and recognize, oh, it's just programming. Yeah, you know, but until that point, well, the journey, right, we get to go. And that's where, I mean, I've studied and been trying to practice surrender for years. And I do think it's a practice. And I love Michael, single singers work, I talked about it all the time. And how he describes no flow is a river. And then it some scars like boulders that are in our river, because they're the trauma that has happened that creates these filters, or scars and how we see the world. And you know, how we start clearing, though. So then we have more of the flow. And this retreat that I mentioned, I, I'm I mean, we're used to planning we're used to having, okay, this is, you know, with a retreat, I usually I will create the construct, like this is a container, and then the information will come in what wasn't coming in, and I was getting really pissed about, I'm like, What the hell is wrong with me why, and I was actually getting mad at God, like, hello, we have shit to do, I have this book, I'm finishing like I had all these things. And then through a conversation with a friend of mine, it was, what if you're actually being asked to just completely step into surrender and flow. And it was like, Oh, shit. And that is what I was asked to do. And that's what I did. And Holy Cow came to you the ease, the ease of it, and the experience of thinking that because for me, you get to a point in your life. And for me, I've cultivated my medicine and my skill sets well enough that I can 100% trust on them. And so it was an interesting experience to just step into that space and let go and then fully trust in myself and in the information that was coming through. It was amazing. It was almost effortless, and it and it was stunning. And I think that is the first real palpable tangible somatic experience that I've had with surrender, because it is an interesting like, oh my gosh, I don't even know how to do this. How do we let go, you know, and we we dance, that dance and life is a journey, you know? And when you're talking about Jesus earlier, he embodied actually trust he embodied that then the knowing that he was co creating with God and with the element. Yeah, I mean, you look at alchemy and how he was able to tap into the energetics of something and transmute, transmute and transform it into something else. Exactly. Like that would take a full trust and surrender unwavering. Yeah. Because when the human psyche and human ego gets involved of Who do you think you are to do this? Or, Oh, my God, I have no idea what I'm doing. You don't mean right gets in the way so you can't create. Exactly and that's what I feel like that's what atonement is. Atonement is when subconscious conscious and super conscious are all fully aligned. And I feel like that's what Jesus showed perfectly. I don't feel like atonement was when he died on the cross. I don't feel like atonement is when he was in the garden, you know, like that. You know, like, I feel like, you know, that wine press or, you know, whatever, that like that. That was part of it. You know, but I feel like him being able to maintain that identity of who he was without who he was, you know, letting go of all the identity parts and, and just being the universal consciousness through what we think is the wind press, I don't even know. Yeah, you know, there's part of me that I'm still like, I don't know what I don't know, I don't know, like, what, what is absolute truth or what has just been taught as absolute truth. This morning I was thinking about how when we allow ourselves to say, I don't know, I mean, I think I know these things until something else comes into my awareness that teaches me something different than me, then it allows for space and movement to actually have information to be brought in, right? And atonement is at one moment. Exactly, you know, when you bring you down in mind. And so like, to me is like, you know, when you get the subconscious, to accept, you know, and to be cleared of all the programming, and that's why I love hope on Apollo. So much like, it's my favorite method. For those who don't know what oponopono is you want to share? Oh, sure. So it's the Hawaiian shamanic prayer for mantras where the idea is that what you see you take it on as yours. So if someone is being rude to you, you take it on as your rudeness. And you say, I'm sorry, for carrying this pattern of rudeness. Please forgive me. Thank you, I love you. And when it's those four phrases, and you just the the premise behind it is there's only love in the world. And the only problems are the thought that there's a problem. And so if we're having a problem with somebody, like that's actually coming from within, it's not actually coming from without Yeah, and so we can clean on it. So Whoa, upon ponemos, the eraser, that helps clear the program that's telling you there's a problem when this person is doing this thing. You know, yeah, thank you. And yeah, say those four things again, it's the I'm sorry, please forgive me. Thank you. I love you. Yeah. That's a beautiful practice. And a lot of people really, really love it. Anyway, I'm like, where are we? You were talking about something else? And then you said hope on a pono. And I totally lost my train of thought we're where are we? Let's see here. Usually, I can recall it and it's blink. Oh, it's talking about atonement, and the aligning the mind and like clearing clear clearing the subconscious patterns, and clearing those beliefs. And that really just takes the light of awareness to help clear that, and in to change the vibration of it. And, and so I feel like when we apply that love and gratitude that that gives it to highest vibration. I mean, I'm not the highest highest, but you know, of the feeling. And, and then we have the opportunity to bring the subconscious in alignment with the conscious mind. And then there's this part of us that is connected to the All in all the superconscious that when all three of those are aligned, that is the United mind that is atonement. Yeah. And so I feel like Jesus was always showing us how to do that. I feel like Buddha showed us how to do that, you know, and so there's these two paths, I would like consider myself a Buddhist Christian mystic, like so. And as you're doing that you're doing the serpent energy that's all Kundalini and it's crossing through. That's funny. Oh, I love this. I love this. I love this. And I think I want you and I were before we started this podcast, you and I were talking about the mother wound? Oh, yes. And I think I'm going to have to invite you back. Maybe around Mother's Day, you and I have a conversation around that. Because Okay, yeah, there's some interesting pieces there that I would love to dive into and sound sharp, like you're open to sharing your mother wounds and so am I. So yeah, really cool conversation. But anyway, thank you, we probably should wrap up. We're over an hour and this has been such a beautiful, I've really enjoyed this conversation and think sharing space with you. And anyway, hearing everything that you've learned, is there anything that you would love to offer anyone that's kind of in the process of stepping out of religion, to kind of assist them in finding comfort and just kind of navigating through? Um, I think I would just offer you know, that it's okay for it to be scary. No, it's okay for because we're leaving behind not just a religion, we're leaving behind an identity an entire way that we've related to the world. And, and I think, you know, sometimes people can get really judgy about when they see people struggling and they're like, well, you should have gone back to religion, right? Because, you know, Um, you know, you've lost the light in your eyes or you know, you're struggling. So that must mean that the struggle is a bad thing. And it's not like I, as as painful as the journey has been for me, I would not give a second of it up, I would, I would not go back. And I feel like it's worth it to push past the discomfort. Because there does start to a comfort zone in the uncertainty begins to build. And then it opens us up to like so much more. And I feel like it's such a personal journey. Some people throw God out. Some people keep God and, you know, some people keep Jesus and throw everything else out. Like whatever it is that they're if there's an anchor that can help be a bridge, I think it's okay to hold on to that. Yeah. You know, and I think it's okay to experience the full, the full weight of the fear. And just know that that's programming. That's all fear is. And I think what you're speaking to, you know, it's that death, you're, you're letting go and, and allowing for what you used to be and who you used to be to die. Yes. And that that feels really painful. Well, it was it was your identity that you wore for as long you know, it served. Right, exactly. And now you're, you're letting it go, you're letting it die. And I did a as you're talking, I'm like, I'll mention this here, I did a meditation a guided journey that actually is a death, right? So I'll put the link in on the show notes for anyone listening that feel like they're in that process of, of death and needing assistance into allowing for that to be released. Because in shamanism, we have all these aspects, you know, and there's a part of us that sometimes it's like, okay, this is coming up to be let go. And and this journey assists and releasing that and then bringing in a new aspect one, yes, like, oh, okay, I'm ready to go. Let's do this. Well, and you know, I had a little period where, like, I became so disconnected from everything that I became suicidal. Yeah. And for and I, the more I talk to people, the more like, it's here. Yeah, that that's really common. And I, and I feel like the thing that I've learned is to step into the despair. Yeah. What's the dark night of the soul? It sounds like that you're going through? Yeah, well, in a few times, to like, and I think that, like, there's all this judgment around despair. But despair is the key to freeing ourselves from those prisons, of false hopes. And so like, I and that's what allowed me to like, move past the suicidal part of it, is to allow despair to have room. And I think that there's even outside the church. There's so much stigma around despair. Yeah. That nobody holds space for it. Nobody holds with the iceberg. Shadow part of ourselves that it is like, we want to avoid that like the plague exact and then when we do feel suicidal, again, I'm going to speak to this a lot of times, it's because there's a part of us that's actually asking to die. Yeah, not all of us say exactly. Just a part. Yep. Just one thing is ready to fully let go. Yeah. You know, and, and so identifying that part, instead of taking it on as all of me Yeah, but But giving room for the despair, giving room to let the hope die. Our emotions are actually part of alchemy that we get to experience within ourselves. And so that's, and I've spoken to this in another podcast. But I think it's really important to speak to that, again, that everything you're sharing, like when you allow yourself to actually go into those emotions and allow yourself to feel it through, it will clear and cleanse it. Yes, it can in a big way. And there's freedom on the other side, and light and knowledge and awareness that you didn't have and, and something about our ourselves gets fortified. And there's a new strength that comes in that we didn't know we had. Yes, exactly. Because I feel like we've been conditioned and programmed for so long to avoid the darkness at all costs, that the only way to get to that other side is through it. And we have to be willing to sit with that darkness The way out is the way in they exactly. Oh, beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I just appreciate you. And this has been awesome. Thank you for Thank you. Thank you for having me. That has been an honor. Wasn't that amazing? And such a beautiful conversation that I'm looking forward to hopefully recording another episode where we get to talk about the mom shame. And because that was just a conversation her and I had started before the podcast that was really interesting. And for those of you that are curious, in that meditation that I offered, if you head to my website, and you go to the meditations, you'll see one that's death rights. And that one is the one that will assist you if you're feeling a lot of the things that she was talking about. Towards the end with just those parts of you that are that are ready to be let go that are ready to be put to rest. I have a guided meditation that is a journey to allowing yourself to let go of that part of you that is asking to die. And then you get to claim a new part. So head over to my website and you can find that meditation underneath my meditations tab. And I just saw honor all of you on your path wherever you are, know that you are not alone. And I Gosh, I'm just thrilled to share this space with you. Sending you all so much love