Your Worth Is Non-Negotiable With Kami & Shelby

Kami Mitchell & Shelby Smith and I got to sit down together, via zoom, as they shared their epic and beautiful story of deconstructing from religion, leaving toxic relationships and cultivating their friendship which brought them together in a beautiful way.

On this episode both women share their stories of growing up mormon, getting married, and their journeys through many paths in their lives. They share how they first met and had this epic moment of soul recognition. During this episode they share pieces around how they were taught to believe that they had to earn their worth and that emotions were not safe, unless you were happy. 

A big piece for both of them was finding their inner truth and the quickest way that they found this was through self love. "Once I tasted that godness within, that love within me grew and finding that love allowed for me to start developing the trust back for myself. Instead of giving authority over me, I started coming back to my own truth."

Have you heard of the kinsey scale? It is a truly interesting scale and the research behind it is quite interesting. You can read more about it here: https://kinseyinstitute.org/research/publications/kinsey-scale.php

Kami & Shelby offer the thought that if there is any curiosity within you it may be your soul / heart asking you to experience something different. The universe is always conspiring in our favor.

A bit more about Kami & Shelby:

Shelby and Kami, partners both in life and in business,  are celebrators of the human experience!  Over the last decade,   they have co-created and held retreats to invite others to get back in touch with their whole selves through movement, breath, sound, touch, music, emotional release, and play.  

These two have done the work inside, and within the last five years,  have answered their heart call, leaving toxic marriages, outgrowing the walls of organized religion, releasing old patterns, rewriting old programs and digging deep to identify the lies they tell themselves, to find truth.
 
They believe in humanity and invite us all to slow down, behold the creators that we are, and BE magnificent, by being all of you. 

Both Shelby and Kami are trained in reiki, BARS, Heart Theta, presenting, energy, healing touch, Tantra, mindset shifts, loving all that arises, emotional clearing/release, movement and flow, shadow work, heart mentoring, play and inner child work.  They are certified cuddlers as well, and 
are published contributing writers in several co-authored books.  

They are thrilled and honored to BE with all those who are choosing into the INbody Retreat!

To follow Kami & Shelby on social media on IG: @yinyang_shelby & @kamsterdance You can also text Shelby at 208-709-0904 OR Kami at 435-229-0513.

Get your spot today at our upcoming INbody Experience! https://www.amandajoyloveland.com/inbody

Grab my latest book on amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Leaving-Religion-Those-Leave-Behind/dp/1952566487/ref=sr_1_1?crid=CU4NMG55H62Y&keywords=leaving+religion+%26+those&qid=1658200798&sprefix=leaving+religion+%26+those%2Ca

Looking for more tools to assist you in deconstructing after religion? https://www.amandajoyloveland.com/leavingreligiontools

Let's stay in touch!

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:02

I am so excited to be back in this space with you. It's been a few weeks. And I am so thrilled to be sharing this next interview with you. And while this interview is a little longer it felt to still keep it just as one debate about separating it out and having two parts. But this, this is to be held as one in one beautiful container with two of the most beautiful humans, that I've had the beautiful opportunity and pleasure to get to know and call two of my dear, dear friends. And I am excited to announce that with them along with Sarah, my beautiful other friends, the four of us are, we have cultivated an in body experience that we have just opened registration. This will be September 22 through 25th. Down in Springdale, Utah. And this is an experience for those of you who have been shifting and moving through so many different places and spaces in your life, unwinding and deconstructing old programs, whether it's religion, or relationships, or old beliefs that you once held, and are cultivating these parts of you that you didn't even know were there, and are really trying to and wanting to step into more embodiment of all that you are, this rich experience is 100% for you and is going to be the most epic one that I have facilitated and have the opportunity to co facilitate. To date, this retreat is only open up to 14 people. So if you are feeling that soul, yes, head over to my website to secure your spot as this retreat will sell out. It's Amanda joy@loveland.com. Forward slash inbody. That's inbody. That's again, Amanda Joy loveland.com. Forward slash inbody. I Nbody. Head over and secure your spot. And I have no doubt by the end of this podcast, you will fall in love with these two women like I have. And you will see the beautiful wisdom that they have. Not only do they practice what they preach, but talk about embodiment. These are. Oh my goodness, I cannot wait. So I'm going to stop talking. Let's dive in to this interview with Kami. And Shelby. I'm so excited to do this interview. We're excited. I didn't know what it was about this morning. You didn't? You didn't know. I mean, we've been friends for a whole two months and you didn't know about my podcast. I knew about your podcast. I forgot totally about this stuff. Are you still Yes. I'm totally Yeah, we're a hell. Yes. Before I knew that's just like, she didn't even need a subject. So let's go with Amanda. Okay. You're like, yes, we can talk. I can definitely do that. We do that? Well, I am. I am so excited to be sitting down with two of my absolute favorite people. Even though we've only known each other for a few months. You feel like you just you're like you're my family. And I just love you both so much. And after hearing a little bit of your story, I don't know much of your story. I really wanted to have you guys on the podcast. In fact, I think I asked pretty soon after we we met but where we live a little from each other you guys and st Georgia and Alpine. It's really wanted to do this in person, but that's just not happening. So here we are via zoom and I am sitting with CAMI Rhodes and she'll be Smith. And this is gonna be fun because they very rarely do podcast interviews with two other people. So you were first it's a new day. A new day. You on one? That's, that's an that's a different podcast. Maybe we should start that one. Especially, especially after your last retreat, ladies. Talk about anything, needing everything. I know. That's how that's how I am. So good thing you said nothing's off the table. This will be fun. So you guys both grew up Mormon? Absolutely. Yep. In Utah, where were Rhodes families in Utah. seven siblings. There's eight of us, just Mormons thick in our blood. I'm from Idaho. I am an Idaho blood Mormon, and totally grew up that way. But my family started off a little rocky and not in the church. Then they got sealed in the temple when I was eight. And yeah. Did you guys enjoy being Mormon? I loved it. I loved it. I didn't know any different and showing up in different places with all of these siblings and station wagons and getting all the looks when we travel outside of Utah. They're like, Oh my gosh, that's a whole family. Like, why are they staring at us? What's What's the matter? Doesn't everybody have a kids in their family? I just identified very much so with the with the Mormon religion with the this is who I am, this is how I function. This is life. I have a different experience. I, I liked it, I could see that my mom and dad were very motivated to get back on track, as they said, and be in in something that was a guidance in their life, something that they could live standards to. And I watched them do that. But I also watch them struggle back and forth going between drinking and smoking to getting back into the church and being active and just this constant battle for them. Yeah. And I was terribly bored in church. I Amanda, I wanted to just be outside and I wanted to be talking with my friends and playing and I couldn't sit still it was it was really a difficult experience for me. But there was something that inspired me in that my parents wanted it so badly. So I'm like, okay, Mom and Dad wanted. Maybe eventually I can get on board, but it was I never fully identified. I always had questions. I always had doubts. I always had discomfort. So it was a back and forth for me. Yeah. And you guys that were both married in the temple. Hmm, of course. So for camis whole entire life like not just a little bit Mormon Cami, you mean you can be the one who's talking right now. I was fully immersed and like I would walk around if someone was drinking caffeine, I would shame them. They could eliminate earrings and tattoos or smoking cigarette like that is just not okay. What are you thinking? What kind of music are you listening to? Why don't you put on the LDS music like I was fit into it how I was the perfect child and had to implement that and put that on, on everyone else. My little sister wanted to go to an R rated show and I bald and bald and begged her Don't ruin your which little sister. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna name names, but one of them one of one of them. And I just saw I'm like you'll you'll give up your whole celestial kingdom. If you go to this already did show like don't do it. And she just was like, Oh my gosh, Kami. She went to the show, and came home and she was totally fine. And I was a wreck. Oh, I was 40 years old and had never seen an R rated show. Had never drank coffee had never tasted coffee or alcohol or been around cigarettes. Like I just was that I was that person. Which is so crazy. Looking back. No kidding. You and I would not have gotten along CAMI fell out of you girl. Because you have a tattoo. And you have like, yeah, there's just so many different things. This is indicative of what happens when you say I'm never going to or I'm like you judge it because you're sure you're gonna be it. She's now with a very pierced, tattooed swearing rated are going woman. Woman. Yeah, we're gonna get into that. Too fat. Back to your question. And so I was one of the judgmental people I was taught like, from when I was little that this, this is the way it is. And if you even stray a little bit, then you will not have joy in your life and you'll risk eternal salvation. And so I was very hard on myself and everyone who came into my space. I had friends say this was when we were younger. We were in high school kami I cannot be your friend and I'm like, what? Why? Because you're just too good. And it drives me nuts. And I'm gonna I'm gonna do other things. So I just can't be friends with you. Like I felt punished because I was so good in quotation marks and very judgmental because of it. Sounds interesting. I did go through the temple, but it was a year after I got married. So you can put the pieces together there. You are naughty. Oh, it was not it was I said naughty to me it was very pleasurable I did want some stability and some structure for the family that I always wanted. I always knew I wanted to be a mom. I had one of those little hope chests with all of the family, like, contribute contributions of what my family gave me so that I could have what I needed to raise a family. So I had baby stuff. I had pots and pans. I even have food storage in this Hope Chest. I knew I wanted to be a mom. And I felt like and was taught that in order for me to be a good mom, I needed to have the church in my life. And so I I adopted that I'm like, okay, that makes some sense. But there was always this part of me that was just like, I am really struggling with rules and confines and boxes and oh, the but okay, everybody says this is what you do. So I was very pregnant. And in this big huge tent white dress, like it was a tent. Oh, went through the temple with and I almost passed out because I was going, Oh, my God, and I thought, This is the weirdest I've ever seen. So, so weird. It is a little weird. It's weird. And my sweet dad prepared me. Your dad did your dad. Yes, I said it, especially if nobody's really prepared you. It is some weird stuff. Yeah, I wasn't truly prepared for I mean, I love wearing costumes and getting dressed up. But this is a little different. And here's Kami, like I served a mission. I graduated from BYU and then got married in the temple. Like I was just on the path. It was around the straight and narrow. Oh, I was clutched to it cleaning to the iron rod. I was going to heaven, no matter what I was 24 when we got married in the temple, and I'd never had sex I'd never done like I remember one of the guys I was dating. When we were kissing reached down touched my butt. I'm like, we're over. Like this relationships over you are not allowed to do that. Like I read the IKEA Leslie strict. It was what I see. Yes, I see you on the street and there are holding rod and I see me diving in and out. Just making sure the path is here and I can see it. We go over here to visual. And that is so funny. And our Yeah, yeah. So you both have several children. How many children do you each of you have? So I have three kiddos? I have six? Six babies. Yeah, nine. So married for how long? I was married for 18 years. I was married for 23, which happens to be the exact number of years my parents were married into. So interesting. Is that very interesting. So when did you both start getting into energy work? Did you start getting into energy work before you left? Oh, yeah. So I started youth for America back then then it became youth for freedom. And so working with the youngsters in the leadership conferences that I would put in the energy was always a part of that. I didn't know it was that later on, people came in and said, Oh, you realize that you're working energy here and like I am? Oh, no, I didn't know. I didn't have that label. But it was definitely a part of, of the retreats and different things that I was involved in. I just didn't have a label for it yet. Um, gosh, I feel like when I was younger, I would visit my family's cabin all the time and I would be outside or in the water was ice cold water, I would be this little six year old and I would be picking up crystals and feeling them and picking up moss and feeling them there was just this awareness ever since I was little. So gosh, I started homeschooling my kids probably 15 years ago and started attending Commonwealth type of things and was meeting people who had shared similar experiences where impasse talked about energy. And I was like, Okay, this is this is it. This is what my world was trying to tell me. So tell me more, teach me more. And so I just kind of dove into seminars and classes and energy healing conferences and and I loved it. And it was before way before I left the church, I wanted it to be workable together. I wanted to build a bridge where both could work together. But when I talked about energy with a lot of my church friends, they were like, You talking him out here, just go pray about it. Like, that was a kind of a side slap to me because it was truth, energy was truth to me. And so when that started conflicting with, with everything that the church was, I didn't understand that, um, like, of course these two would go together, why couldn't I be speaking at an energy healing conference and be a good Mormon? Right? Now those two coexist and the the way that the church viewed energy and energy healing energy talk, all of it was looked down upon, and that just really confused me. As to how, how they could try to separate this, I've always been a seeker of Truth and energy. It just was. So that was a huge conflict, when that came into, like, what, why? Why would they label this a bad thing? How could this not be a beautiful, intricate part of what, what the Church believes? Right? Like, why aren't they teaching this in church? I mean, basically, the priesthood is energy work. Like, why aren't they teaching and implementing this, I was very, very confused, because I could see, I could start to see how it was basically energy and all the scriptural references when they're talking about it. Like there's just reference to it. You could feel it. And I was very confused. Like, this is all the same thing. Like it's just here. Yeah. Testimony of energy work. Was this part of your like the beginning of the unwinding, out of religion for both of you? Whoo, that's a good question. That that was probably my first like, how do these not coexist? I shouldn't be in trouble for being in this world. So probably, I hadn't even thought of it that way of the unraveling, because it's just, I was Relief Society president at 30. And I was doing energy work, like, the different activities that I would orchestrate we're out of the box. And not we're making a quilt. But we're coming together and connecting and looking in each other's eyes and, and building the connection and the foundation and the friendships. And we're washing each other's feet and serving one another. And when we I would go into serve a family it wasn't here's a casserole, I would gather the the women and say, like you go and massage the Mama's feet while I'm cleaning spaghetti off the wall while you're playing with her children out back. Like it was an entire different way. And some people really appreciated that some people were like, What the heck is going on? Aren't you gonna just drop off some dinner for us? Why do you have to come into my home and talk to me about my relationships with my kids? Like what's happening here? So that I just pulled it in? Because it was part of me and I when I would get in trouble for it. I didn't back down. I'm like, this is this is love. Yeah, yeah, it is. And so I didn't understand what any other point of view and I, I did keep that to my core, I think the biggest unraveling for for me, was I had two brothers who had, who were living their gay lifestyle. And I was taught to that they were sinners, they were diseased, they were going to hell, they were ruining things for our whole family. I judge them very harshly and did not accept them for who they were and for their choices. And when that started unraveling for me, I'm like, these are my brothers and I'm treating them horribly. Not in the not out here but in my mind, thinking that they were these terrible things like how could you do this to our family? You're gonna leave some empty seats in the celestial kingdom flutter, you know, wouldn't change about us first, over over choosing the sinful life. And in 2015 when the church came out with any child of get a gay couple is not welcome in the church. They can't be baptized. I hit a wall. I'm like the church has never come forward and said, if you're the child Out of a prostitute, if you're the child of murderer, if you're the child of all of these different things that we called sin, you are fine, you're welcome. But this one's different. Why? And that that really hit me hard. And I started seeing my brothers as my brothers for the first time in a long time, and went through a lot of sadness for how I've, I'd held them in what the church taught me to hold them in, which is, it was wrong to me. It shattered my heart and burst burst me wide open to say, What? What is going on with my relationship with the church? Who am I? Who do I want to be? Where's the truth in all of this? So force you to question I love that. The biggest unraveling is I'm looking back. So in 2011, I was asked to film a Christian movie about pornography. And it was the role I played was a woman who divorced her husband because he became addicted and abusive. And it was her single life and how she was getting back on track in her life. And it was a three week process. I left my family for three weeks. And it was something that I was passionate about at the time. My dad was, had experienced porn addiction, my husband at the time had experienced it. And I was feeling like I was being a voice and creating hope for people. And I came home after that three weeks feeling just alive. Like I was on purpose. I had succeeded in something that I had dreamt about in my youth, I wanted to be a star, I wanted to be on the big screen. This was this was my dream. And it was, in my opinion, something that was worthwhile because of the message. But after that three weeks, I came home and was met with intense questioning doubts from my ex. He was very upset that I would leave our family to do something that I loved. X at the time. No, he wasn't. He was yes, at the time. He was my husband. But he he questioned a lot. And I felt a lot of shame, a lot of his shame. But it was being projected onto me. And he told me he said, after he watched the premiere he goes, I don't understand how this could work. You were basically the porn on the screen. I was in a cycling outfit, most of the time, that was my role. I was a cyclist. So I had one of those cute little tight shorts, but it had basically a diaper in it. And then a little I mean, you know, a padded bum, this padded and I could not fathom like I am, I am on the path of finding my dreams. And I started hearing from my bishop and my other friends that I took way too much time away from my family that I shouldn't have pursued something like this. It was just conflicting so conflicting in my mind how I could be out there doing something that had this beautiful message of inspiration for so many people and come home and was met with shame and judgment and it did not make sense. It also did not make sense to me that I've had been doing all the things morning scripture time and family prayers and everything that was suggested attending my meetings and I did not feel what everybody says is spiritual or spear I didn't feel the spirit. I didn't feel in line. I didn't feel like our family was getting closer. I was doing all the things. And it didn't feel like anything was ever improving or, or connection was happening. It was just a constant. We have to do this force force force force force because it's the right thing to do. That's how we do it family. So let's get on board. Well, that's what you're taught that you do in order to have the things that you want. You we didn't you earn your words and your happiness by checking off all of these boxes and then for some reason doesn't apply and I was a box checker Pro. I had boxes upon boxes and boxes at the end of the day just so that I could have more boxes. I did all of the things and still wondered why I felt that way. There was always this something is missing. And it was And it was close to that time that I realized it was me. I was missing. Yeah. Well, the truth that our worth isn't negotiable. No, I, we I was trained, that I had to earn it. I had to earn my worth. Each day, I had to earn the love from God. And if I did these things, then I would have it. And I did all those things, but still lived in so much shame and feelings of unworthiness. How, how is that possible if their formula was correct? Hmm, great question. Mm hmm. Oh, my goodness, I love this so much. So YouTube became friends tell me like, let's keep coming down this trajectory, this path. And you guys know where I'm going. So what continued? What continued from here with your an unraveling and unwinding out of religion? Yeah. So we, for me, I was so excited about attending some of these seminars where I was hearing more and more of the truths that I wanted to hear when I attended church but wasn't. So I, I, I'm like, this is where I get to go these seminars, these classes, these mentors. So I, in 2012, attended a seminar with my then husband, and Cami Mitchell happened to be down the road from me, I did not know. But she happened to be in my row of all the universal plannings she was in my row. And I was still pretty good at being prepared and prepared mom and wife. So I had 16 bags at my feet. There was probably a bag of notebooks, a bag of snacks, a bag of jackets, a bag of food storage, things that people might need. So just in case you I'm in our building, because there was a natural disaster. I days, you know, you just never know, prepared. I did take some of those teachings seriously. To all did, we all did. There's a lot of fear with it. So we would take up zero. Right? It worked. They put fear into our souls. Fear is motivating it is and it will get the job done. But it will, it will cause us our health and our psyche and our many other things. It does get the job done. I'll tell you that fear and shame are huge motivations huge for that lifestyle, which is incredibly heavy, and different than what they actually try to tell us. They're teaching us you know, it's so crazy different than what God is. love, not fear and shame are so different. Yeah. Yeah. So anyways, I had been well prepared. And so I had this mountain of bags at my feet and sweet little soul needed to go to the bathroom. And I could see that she had come to my mountain and was trying to navigate which way so I, I'm like, I, I will help her, I will help her. So I reached out to grab her hand and help her over the mound. And she stopped. Which was, it was surprising because I'm like, I'm actually helping you. And and so I got a follow through with my hand holding to get over the man. But she stopped and looked at me and had this perplexed look, one touch. Like, once her hand touched my hand that energy, I recognized it. I knew it. I knew it from lifetimes. I knew I knew it. And so I was like, Oh my gosh, who is this? And I flipped around. And shockingly, I didn't recognize her physical form and it scared me. This Oh, and I'm like, Whoa, do I have a booger there's something on my face. He was like so shocked. Finally, she gathered herself up and and climbed over the mountain and and it was a little bit later where we all were all separated into groups of three and she comes right up to me and she goes, You're in my group. And I'm like, she knows what she wants this girl it's a row I'm saying I maybe, but I loved it. And I said, I will absolutely be in your group. I am intrigued by who this soul is. So we were in a group of three and we don't even remember who the third person was. We were so like, enamored enamored by I was enamored by her brilliance, her wit her. Like she was laughing at my jokes, which, of course, is always endearing, and dirty. That's why I liked it. My jokes and she's not shaming me for my job. Oh, we were finishing each other sentences. And our sandwiches like we just hit it off really, really quickly and exchanged phone numbers that day. She lived in St. George at the time I lived in Idaho, so we knew we wouldn't be able to immediately get together but just to stay in touch. I remember writing in my journal Haftar. Afterwards, just that I had met this soul that I recognized and I loved being in her space and her energy just it lit me up. And I was bawling. As I was writing in my journal. I'm like, I already miss her and I just met her. Oh, that reconnection was incredible. Well, and I like she tried to leave that first seminar before she said goodbye. And I texted her and I said, you get your ass back in here. And you say goodbye to me. I already was so comfortable. We were literally just friends for two hours. I was so comfortable. I climbed on her lap and just throws her. I'm like you don't get to leap. I get to hold you for two more minutes. And we just we it was the weirdest thing. It was like we had known each other for centuries, centuries. Wow, that's beautiful. So where does this story go from here ladies? Well, we were still very married still very LDS. So we it was like a veil over our eyes. Like we couldn't see anything beyond what our best friends we could be besties that's that was what the role that we have here. And so we created women's retreats so that we could come together and play and then also influence other adults into it was mostly around play, reconnecting to themselves and falling in love with with their inner child. And that meant that she and I got to be together we would we would hold retreats in the center of our travels and be able to play that way. We also would follow the seminars and and say this one looks good. Let's go to that one. And most of them were held in the Salt Lake area. So we would go halfway and and have a few days of playtime at the seminars. And it just was this blooming beautiful friendship, immediate best friendship and I there was something about her I could not put my finger on it. But I'm like, I don't know why I want to be in her space all the time. But yeah, it just must be that we were we are like Soul friends just soul friends that even a friend couldn't say necessarily soulmates? Because that would be oh, what? Oh, there Yeah. Yeah. So I got to keep it to I knew her somehow we were sisters or friends or related in in years, centuries, eons lifetime. So we made it happen. We we got to see each other. And we knew there was something special about this friendship and a lot of people would tell us you guys have this synergy, like you just when you come together, you can feel it on the other side of the planet. You can feel it on the other side of the universe. There's something happening when you to get together and we knew that we could feel it. So how many years did you do this dance? Six. So we met in 2012. And in twos about six years of best friendship and trying to navigate what on earth this was. But loved every minute that we got to spend together. We were like I pulled Shelby into anything and everything that I could get her into like the I had her come speak at youth for freedom and she would work with the kids and we had the improv night and she would do that with us. And then we would meet at seminars together that we were both being certified like as different mentors and energy healing modalities. We were and just anything that we could land in the same space together, we would I was in, at Shelby. I remember an experience I had learned in therapy, about this holding technique. And where you put your heart to, to the other person's heart, one person's held like a baby and totally supported. And I would try this at home with my husband, but then he it would turn sexual and it could like the holding wasn't this wasn't a place for sexual anything. And so I would ask my friends, like, Would you hold me? Would you do this whole thing? I really think that this could be a powerful healing for me and connection and like, they would just laugh at me. Oh, Kami, You're ridiculous. And I would get shamed for it. But I knew that that's something that my heart needed was to be held, just held nothing else, no agenda. And so early on in our friendship, I told Shelby about this holding she had recently lost her papa. And I offered to hold her. And she climbed right into my arms and just sobbed and sobbed and sobbed. It was the most beautiful healing and connection and like I felt her father within me holding her like it was so incredible. And then, to watch her sob, I'm like, Wow, this girl, she's so connected to her emotions, she can feel her feelings so big. It was incredible to me. And then when she was done being held, she goes, Okay, Cami, it's your turn. And I just stopped, like, I'm like, but nobody offers this to me. Like, this has never been available to me. Are you sure? And she's like, Can I get in my arms. And I, for the first time in a long time, I had tears that were coming out of my eyes. And that for me was I'm like I am sobbing here. And it was this incredible experience. And Shelby's like honey that you're just have tears, but that's not crying. See that you feel it's Friday, this is for you. But crying is so beautiful. I haven't had a teardrop like that. And she's like, Okay, we got some work to do. We have some more parents in here that would like to come out there. Just take it out right now. It's a whole flood in there with me. And in this unconditional space where shame and judgment wasn't a part of it. She just let me be me. For the first time I felt like in my life without any. That's gross. Don't do that. We don't know. Why would I do like nothing, it was like you want to be held come here. And it just was an incredible free space for me to be all of me. And open my heart space to the emotions that like growing up emotions were safe if I was happy. But any other emotions were I was a bad girl. And I needed to go on timeout. And so any other experiences of sadness or anger or shame weren't allowed. They weren't welcomed. And so to have her mentor meet through that process and allow my feelings to be felt all of them, not just the happy ones. It was an incredible journey. And the friendship just grew there. And I was so like, intrigued by this woman who was a quote unquote, good Mormon girl, but so willing to try things that are out of the norm. Like I just was like, Who are you that you would want to like, try this new process of holding. I've never seen this before. I've never heard of it. But my heart's like. It's amazing that this woman who is also a good Mormon would be willing to do that and not go through. That's weird. Because my heart longed for connections like that so big. And to find someone who was willing to do it and at the safety that we created the beautiful loving energy, there was nothing off about it. There was nothing sexual about it there. It was just this beautiful, nurturing healing space. And I'm like, I want more of this. And she's willing to introduce and show me what she's learned and I'd like to learn more and share what I've learned and have that experience with someone who won't go. We probably need to go see the bishop. Now. What are you doing? What are we? So Amanda like with refreshing with what you were talking about the beginning, like, when these two worlds collided, I had to ask myself I really had to sit with. This feels true to me. But the guidance of the Church says no, like I met with, my husband dragged me into the counselor and said she likes sleeping with her girlfriends when she goes on girlfriend trips, and she sleeps in the same bed. Oh, man. That is not allowed. Not is not okay. This is absolutely outside of the the church's standards. And I'm like, I grew up with eight kids. We went, I had three sisters in my bed all the time. Like, this is just core to who I am. And he's like, You have to stop. This isn't okay. So like I had to take this feels. Okay, it feels truth to me. And the church is saying no. Where do I stand now? Yeah. When, when energy working with energy feels absolutely divine and spiritual to me. And then the counsel of what was coming in is you got to stop that. What, what do I do? And all of these conflicting pieces of where do I? Where do I go? Do I stand up for my own truth? Or do I just go back to Okay, someone else said, it's not okay, I have to let it go. And so that, like, added to the unraveling of my relationship with someone else telling me what the truth is, versus the truth is inside me. And will I honor that? Yeah. I'm remembering. The first time we had spent the night in the same space because we had a seminar the next day, so we met at a friend's house and stayed in their spare room. And I remember letting her know like, I, I might cuddle you. I hope that's okay. Because sometimes I I kind of go towards the warm body and, and the warm body doesn't want to have sex with me. So I will definitely probably lean towards you. So she just dropped everything. And she goes, Are you joking? I'm like, No, I you're like, No. Okay. Is that a no for you? And she's like, No, I just don't know very many people like that. And I'm like, we both jumped in the bed. And I'm like, big spoon. I remember. And I pulled her in, and I just snuggled up to her. And I felt so at peace. And so okay, like, this was just fine. I fell asleep. I'd like I was just so comfortable. So safe. And she told me later, she's like, I stayed awake the whole time, because I couldn't believe it was happening. I was in shock crying. Because it was so beautiful to me. Yeah. And so starting to unravel, like, the the relationship that we had with the church versus all all the things that started to happen. And that wasn't allowed in my marriage. Like, I'm not allowed to question the church. And I would have been the first one to say that to my husband the day before. Like, yeah, I would have told you that, you know, all of all of my life, this is not something you can question you have to just stay here. And I yet I was the one looking at my relationship to God versus my relationship to God according to the church's view. And I'm like, that's not the God that I subscribe to. I remember knowing that on my mission, they were like, here's your list of everything that you need to do. This is from God and go out and do it. And I'm like, God, what do I do? Not this, okay. And I had nine baptisms, where the average baptism for a missionary in Hungary was one and a half. Why? Because I was connected to God. And I followed that he was he was the one that gets to direct me, not a person who is in between him and me. And I have always known that as my truth and this, the God that I know and grew up with and was very close with was starting to be very different to me than than the one that I've been told about and described in within the the realms of, of the belief system. I think this is part of our relate reliability and availability. Scratch that rewind relatability because there was that, that knowing that there was something speaking to me that was my own that was different than what everybody else was saying the authorities, the leaders. And so to be able to have conversations around that with her and have her understand, have someone see me and I see her. And to be able to grow and develop and follow that with someone, like a best friend that you adore, like, How much better can it get to be able to do this self discovery, and find our own answers that have always been within and, and being able to learn to trust those and, and feel like you have support. That was one of the things that that we really enjoyed doing is learning how to trust ourselves bigger together, and have someone to bounce it off of. And, and still knowing that there's this background of church voice that we get to navigate. And I, I just I want to shout out to all the people who are experiencing that or have, because it's not an easy way to go. It's there's a lot of voices, a lot of voices outwardly and inwardly from the past that speak loudly, saying, you're, you're doing it wrong, shame on you, you shouldn't have done that. That's not the right way. I still to this day, sometimes hear those. And so it's, it's not, it's not for the faint of heart. And so I just want to celebrate all of those people who realize that there's truth within them, their own truth within them, and that they are navigating beautiful waters, and it has a beautiful payoff. It does finding the godness within a godness within and and just climbing into that truth. You can't you cannot fabricate that piece. No, that is like this deliciousness that once once we started tasting that, and increasing the love that we had for ourselves. That was a huge part of the journey. Because until I really loved myself, I didn't trust and I didn't listen fully. I would take someone else as an authority over me, and and change my ways. Until I really started gaining that absolute compassion and non judgmental place for myself, Holding, holding myself in a place of love instead of holding myself in a place of shame and fear. And you have to choose and you need to the new shoulds all of that started unraveling and finding that love for me. And building the trust back here when I was little I have that trust like crazy. Through the marriage, I stopped trusting me because I had an authority figure who said no, it's my way. And this is righteous, and this is what we do. And I would be like, oh gosh, I didn't feel that. But okay. Yeah, I want to go to the celestial kingdom, I want to be a good wife, I want to be a good Relief Society, President whatever. So I would give my authority over to others outside of me. When my marriage was breaking apart, and I was getting out of it, the psychologist told me he's like this is going to take you 18 months to start revamping and coming back into your own because you have been so willing to give control over to any to anyone else. And so to come back and find that trust, he's like, you've got 18 months worth of work, and saying no, and learning how to come back and find who you are, what your truth is. And all of this was unraveling. At the same time, my relationship with the church was was coming to a close. My relationship in the marriage was also coming to a close they were kind of happening simultaneously. And it took a long time for me it. I'm a slow paced person. And this was my whole identity. So to take. Yeah, that wasn't a fast thing for me like this took years. It was probably six years worth of my marriage that was back and forth and back and forth and so many different counselors and mentors and helpers and things for me to start seeing that maybe this isn't what is working for me. And then with my relationship with the church, I was 40 years old and starting to shall be had to train me how to say a swear word and give myself permission to just do things because I wanted to do them and I couldn't even say the swear word at first you had to assign numbers. Instead of saying shit, you'll say one. And then she had me practice holy one. That's not naughty. Okay, let me try again. It was a ridiculously long process, but I feel like my identity my very who I saw myself as it wasn't true, but it's who I thought I was. Yeah, was this good Mormon, girl, and, and wife, and heterosexual and like, all the the labels that I had lived and proclaimed and judged everyone else for if they weren't those things they came in for me to look at and the love that I had grown for myself, finally was able to answer that that's not a piece of me moving forward. So when you look at all of this, Amanda, like, isn't that LDS church kind of like the coolest mystery school ever? Like, if you consider for a second, if we go in, and we actually find ourselves through, finding what we're not, and what's not working and where truth isn't, and, and have that experience and come to the other side, having realized our godness like, truly, there's a lot of gratitude that I'm feeling. It was rough, and it's hard, and there's still some feelings towards the church that I do have and get to be with but for the most part, I feel a lot of gratitude for that whole mystery school of the Mormonism world. That taught me about me. Yeah, brought me back home. Yeah, so much appreciation. So much. It was an awesome. K through 12. Yes, exactly. Schooling college is really fun. A little bit more fun. Yeah, yes. I said, I'm for that. Show. Tours. Yeah, you go. Go ahead, like so the breaking up. Her. Her marriage was very interesting. I could see it from outside. Show me would call me hiding under her stairs, frightened for her life. She'd left her kids upstairs, she didn't know what was gonna happen to them. And she's breathing in panic. And I'm like, This is not normal. Like call the cops. What? And she's like, What? No, he just this is how we this is how it happened. I just need a timeout. I would just say that. I just need to just sure he needs to simmer down and then everything will be okay. I saw it is very toxic. And like, I couldn't like I'm like, It's not fun. And it's hard. And of course I can I live with a guy so I can see his wounds, I can see what he's struggled with. I can see his family dynamic and know why. Why he's like that. So there was a lot of justifying my choice to stay. There was I mean, I was married to a doctor, and his family was a family of doctors. So my family was well provided for and he was a lot of the things that I had felt I wanted in a man when I first met him, there were so many things on the list, you know, the checkmarks knocked off all those boxes. So I had found a good one. And so a lot of it I just thought it was me. Like i i There was something off with me. And I would tell God all the time. I'm like, God, he's a pretty good man. He's amazing father, like you get you get to fix me, like change my heart because I am having a hard time staying here. I don't want to be in this marriage. And I think it's just my shit. I said stuff at the time. I don't know if I said it. counsel was have more sex with your husband. Oh, well, that was later on. But yes, he's like you leave too much. And I did. I left because I couldn't be in the same space with him. I didn't want to be. Okay. So one of the stories for Shelby is when she she was having terrible back pain. She was going into the chiropractor all the time, like her back was falling apart. And she was looking at shots, maybe surgery, all that stuff. She'd get in the car and drive. And as she would drive away. She could walk. She was fine. Sitting behind her back was completely fine. We would go through the retreat. She'd get back in the car and head home and call me and say oh my gosh, my back's hurting. My body stopped working. Her body just didn't see her. It didn't show up work in the sexual world. rolled with him it didn't function there. It just my body was saying no more like, this isn't this isn't happening. But I, I said there was something wrong with me. I'm like, you've got God, you've got to change my heart, you've got to change, you got to have me fall in love with him again, because I know I'm supposed to be here forever, and I can't be in this space. I'm such a romantic I love so big. And there's there's something broken. So if you could just, you know, adjust the knobs somehow. Whenever you don't need adjusting, but I will let you play with them. The knobs finally work. Just fine the work. So it was a it was a slow process of realizing that there was more than one person involved in the marriage. It wasn't all my fault wasn't all his fault. We were no longer compatible. And I realized that and I realized I had chosen into something. Because it was this fairytale. Married, you get married to have kids, I knew I wanted all those things. I thought I was in love with this man. Looking back, I was in love with the idea of the man and the life. Knowing what being in love is now I can feel the difference when I am looking at this woman and go on I am in love with her. And whatever life comes with that is beautiful. But the soul is what I want to be with and whatever else is outside doesn't matter where before it was. All these things had to be a part of the package for me to go say yes, again, it was a whole all these things that you want to get back in the church, you want to have kids, you want to be a doctor, you have a great family. Awesome. It's the whole package. I'm in love with it. Yes, I'll marry you. And so realizing that I actually wasn't in love with the person and to take accountability and responsibility for that was heavy, because I had chosen into something and it would impact so many lives now because I chose into it what for what I felt was the wrong reasons. But I can see. Now looking back my innocence. I was doing what I knew doing my best. Yeah. And I was I was only 19 years old at the time. So just you can be compassionate and I was so little and gentle with myself and how to show me get to show up now and realize that I had lost myself in the fairy tale I had lost myself in the story or the paradigm of what a good Mormon mom looks like. I lost myself completely. So it was in 2016 I went to a friend's birthday party, who also was one of our CO facilitators for some of our retreats. And she she got in my face. He got in my face because I was I was like already in pain because my my husband at the time was in and he was struggling pretty big that I had left again to go to my friend's birthday party. He was furious and angry and shaming and it was heavy. So when I chose to leave, I was heavy. I felt heavy. And she addressed it and she's like what's happening and I shared a little bit of here's another experience of me wanting to be somewhere and feeling horrible about it. And so tired of it. So she got in my face and she goes Shelby. When in the fuck are you going to actually choose yourself? When in the fuck are you going to choose you? Like she was very direct? Very in my face. Full of fiery love. It wasn't she wasn't. Yeah, it wasn't a bullying. It was a let's just talk straight. Let's just lay it all out here shall be why are you not choosing you after all the things you've been learning after all the things you've been teaching women after all the retreats you've been, you aren't choosing you step up. And I'm like shit, shit. So I went home, that from that birthday party, and after days of crying, being scared thinking of all the possibilities, the wettest of all the things that could hurt. How could hurt people? How could go wrong? How I don't have a college degree, how I love bla bla bla bla all the stories that we've wanted to stop me. I chose to trust what had been driving me for a long time and knowing that I don't belong there. My soul is not thriving. So I two days before my ex husband's birthday, I chose to tell him I was divorcing him And there was nothing that was going to change my mind. It was, it was rough. And he said, please do not tell the kids until after Christmas because it was in December. And I did choose to wait and tell the kids but I knew once I told the kids, that it would be even more solid for me, if I could tell everyone that it's happening. And then I'm sticking to my guns. So that was in 2016. And I was celebrating the hell out of Shelby for getting out of a marriage that wasn't serving either of them. The love that you have to have for yourself also allows you to love the other person and say that we're not, we're not good. Together. He's not, he was not happy now neither of you were. And so I'm celebrating her and excited for her. We're still doing seminars, working on my relationship with, with the church, finding my truth and coming into reality checks for myself. And about six months later, my husband came to me and said, I am divorcing you. I am in love with another woman. And this wasn't the first time that that happened. But I gave myself 10 days to to feel into if I was going to beg him to stay and do all the things that he his list of things that I had to do in order for him to consider staying with me, one of well many of those things where the church is non negotiable, I had to be part of the church. And he was willing to look at his relationship with this girl, if I was willing to do all these things. One of the things was give up my friendship with shelves, like just all these different things which I had done over and over and over in my marriage. Like when he said that I needed to do these things I did, I changed them and stopped trusting me. I trusted him and made the marriage work. But both of us were miserable. I took that time in warm water and next to streams and in the mountains and realized that this whole paradigm of this eternal marriage that was gonna last forever. Like it wasn't it hadn't even brought me happiness in years. Why? Why would I want to hold on to something hoping that in the in the celestial kingdom, maybe we'll be happy. But we're miserable here. Like what, what in the good night was I thinking? But that love that I had found for myself. That was the piece that gave me permission to say, I also choose out of this. Because I choose Me and I in this sandy beach, I wrote I choose me put my feet and took a picture. I'm like, This is me moving forward. I came back to him and said, we are getting a divorce where I'm not. This is not negotiable from here on out because he would threaten that. And then he pulled back well, this isn't really what I wanted. Let's just change this do this different. It was never, never something that I questioned again, I had found my truth, I loved myself enough to finally choose me. My relationship with the church was changing and different. I I went and talked to the bishop said we're getting a divorce. And he's like, I don't support you in that. And I said, That's okay, thank you for that. Mark is divorcing me. And it's happening. So you can not support us in that but it's happening. It's like, no, no, your kids deserve better. And you guys need to stay together. And this is the only way. And in that bishops interview, I found that my relationship with God was above my relationship with the bishop and his relationship with God, telling me what I could and couldn't do. And I let him know that this is happening. Thank you for voicing that you don't support it. It is what it is. And this is what's going on. He didn't believe me about any anything that I had portrayed. I'm like, this was my marriage for all these years. He's like, nope, nope, this No, you can't be telling me the truth. A month later, he texted me and said I verified every single thing that you shared, and I apologize So that's nice. We're telling me how nice but either way, I'm getting divorced because I am in charge of me. I think if those bishops, like the bishop that told me you need to sleep with your husband more and and give him more sex, and the bishop that told kami that you need to stay in the marriage. I like it, there's this tendency to follow the book, the manual, there's a process by the letter of the law. Yeah. And it's it. There's no spirit of the law, when it comes to that when we're completely doing it by the book, you know, suggest to people to stay, stay in their marriages, when when they're not happy, suggest to others that you should keep having sex with the husband without any consideration of the single human. They that experience that's so unique to a book, the book doesn't cover every experience, every soul every wound every it's got to be, it's got to be led by the Spirit. The he's got to like the the leadership, when they are tuned in if he had tuned in that day, you didn't and it's perfect, but had he you would have known without needing to have can explain everything he could tune in to what is true. And there's sadness in me that the manual has taken, taken precedence over listening to their hearts and to listening to the Spirit. And how many people have been impacted and affected because of the constant drilling, trust your leaders trust your leaders trust your leaders, but it's an individual basis. It's not, it cannot be covered by a manual. It has to be led by the heart by God by the soul. It just that yeah, I'm noticing I feel a lot of sadness around all the people and their experiences have been beautiful and perfect in their Mystery Schools have been just right for them. But I do notice there is there is sadness, and gratitude. For those who have chosen into saying no. Not today, Bish. Yeah, your words actually don't supersede mine. Or my connection with God, that piece that I had to get to I had to unravel a law to get to that point where I loved myself enough, trusted myself, said enough to say that actually, I know what's best for me. Thank you for your counsel and relying on on me. For most of my life, I didn't do that. Well, you look at you go, there's a little bit of a lag. So kami go, sweetie. Um, I remember earlier on when the bishop called me and said, You're going to be the next Relief Society president. I'm like, I don't feel like that's true. And he's like, that's fine. Go home, and then we'll, we'll set you apart in three days. Not much. But I said that I said, No. And he's like, yep, that's fine. That's nice. We're, we'll set you apart in a few days. I didn't have a say. And I was set apart. I was pregnant, and my pregnancy went crazy. Wild and I was in bed for a huge part of that. That to being really sad president and it was a lot on me. You know, I couldn't get out of bed. I still it weighed on I'm not serving the women. I'm not doing the you know, and I, I think about that, like, man, had I just really been listened to that it was a no for me. But it wasn't accepted. It was taught Yeah, that's nice. Pat. Pat. You're the next Relief Society president. And so like, it's just interesting to, to look at how when did we give up trusting ourselves and give it to someone else? What were you gonna say, Amanda? Well, I was just going to say that. I mean, that last question that you asked is, when did we give up ourselves and we're trusting someone else you did, the minute you entered that church, because there is always an intermediate, an intermediary between you and God within the Mormon church and within most religions, not just within the Mormon church. But I find it really fascinating, the negotiation piece that you talked about with your marriage. Well, if you do this, then I'll do this or I'm willing to stay if you do these things, and I and in some ways, it's kind of how religion actually has set up that construct to as far as relationships, and I haven't really put those two together and how much we do have this and I don't know what the word is, but you can feel it this sense of giving up more and more of who we are for the sake if someone else called yeah, there's another piece of sacrifice. Yeah. Within the church. Go figure. Yeah. Yeah. There Yeah, like Christ's sacrifice yourself for the good of your family. Sacrifice and compromise. Yeah. And and let's not be happy while we're doing it, and how you know, and where he brings the children into this, it's like, actually, I'm going to do a better job as a parent showing my children when a happy and actual love looks like, versus staying in a marriage where it's not happy. And it's not a co creative relationship or it's not healthy. That's not teaching. Yeah, there's no thriving happening. It's just surviving, which is also equal to enduring, enduring, and enduring and surviving are synonymous, they're the same. And so just survive to the end. But I don't know if I would ever choose that. We did. I know. But I don't know if I would realize that. We didn't like wait a second. And now I'm choosing into thriving like, I had the opportunity to choose into it. So I knew what I did not want so that I could live a life of how I wanted it to be. Yeah. Just yeah, thriving for me, and pro pro thriving over here. So how did you two end up together? How did that do you mind sharing? And how was that for you? Because I mean, this is a huge pendulum swing, don't leave the Mormonism no longer married to a man. And then we're swinging completely over. I remember a man having an entire file of all of the articles anybody has ever written about gay people eventually taking over the church and trying to infiltrate temples and, and their big agenda, like I was so on board. This, I don't even know like this movement of what would happen if we continue to support gay people in their agenda. I had articles upon articles. And it wasn't until I met a beautiful soul that actually facilitated my son through a process that was very healing for me, for him and for me, and found out later that she was gay. But I watched her and like, just the most purest love, and he looked up to her and appreciated her and I'm like, wait a minute, you can't be gay, because you're good. You're nice. And you're, you're like, full of love. And I like this. That's this is so weird, like you can't be and she's she became one of my very best friends. And that shifted everything I threw everything away. I'm like, this, this isn't applicable. This isn't true. There are so many good people like she would literally be standing at the cash register, and by the cash, cashier, a candy bar. Just her heart was so beautiful. Like, I'd like to buy you some free break today. Like I'd watch this all the time. And like she can't she can't be batch can be evil, this is just off. And so it it did throw me for a loop and that what I believed for so long, was being pointed out and shown to me, person after person and more and more people that I loved was they were coming out and saying, you know, I am having this experience and I learned to love. I actually remember having close friends in high school too. When I wasn't in the church that were gay and I I remember them being so enjoyable and fun. I preferred gay men over girls they were less catty or something and they'd cut all but not want sex they were perfect friends. But so the the idea of me having any attraction toward women wasn't ever a thing. I always had the the half naked men posters on my ceiling and on my walls I just really really not me I had the moment ads I had the posters are different. My mom really wanted me to have the Mormon ads underneath my big beautiful poster Oh, yeah. I love so yeah, I we, we didn't have the leanings. And so to to even entertain the idea of being in love with this person was so far off for me. I remember driving home one point after we'd been friends for years and having had a beautiful I think it was either a retreat or a seminar or something where we we were facilitating some beautiful souls and The thought came into my mind I am so in love with that girl. And I about peed my pants I mean, I mean, I'm so in a place of love when I'm in her. I mean, I mean I'm not like in love with her but I'm in love with what we do. And I love her. Like I noticed my like backpedaling, justified. It's a woman I can't that's so cute. Weirdest thing. Like I am in love with you. But you're in a girl's body. This is weird. We had to google how to be with a woman because we didn't know. And by the way, that wasn't very helpful. We said how do you know if you've had lesbian sex? Google, Google. We don't have a lot of information on that. But we do know you'll know when you have it. So I we got to kind of navigate through energy, learning how to follow flow and follow the energy and follow what her body was asking for. That's kind of where our learning ground was. Because Google was we had crapshoot, right, we had to take all of our set of beliefs and let them go let them go. Like, literally to the side so that we could start to see what this was because we had such blinders on our on our selves. gret having grown up being taught that this was not okay. And our hearts. Oh, it's more than okay. It's incredible. It's It's what you've longed for, for a long time. Yeah. So we were navigating both of us at the same time a divorce. So I was in my divorce for six months, then she got into her divorce. And so it was an entire years process for both of us to move through, they literally ended our marriages within a week of each other. The courts did, it was pretty interesting. But that whole year was, once the divorces were in process, we spent a lot of time together, we had our kids one week off, and one week on. So we would she would either drive up to me or I would drive down to her during the weeks without our kids. And we would have conversations, we would have intimate moments we would have. Just being curious about what this could be and noticing when the shame would come at noticing when the stories or the wounds would come up noticing when the stoppers would be involved. And so it was a it was a just a an adventure, a new adventure with a new territory, a new place to discover. And it was breaking down identity versus making identity pieces. Yes, yes. The church identity as well as the being married identity as well as the heterosexual identity. Like everything was crumbling. Yeah. And we're like we leave all have that at the door and just let our hearts lead. What? And we would flow with that. And we found so much joy. And I finally got to say I actually am in love with you. And I tried to deny it. But I can't. It's very realizing that the in love experience that I have wanted and thought I was in I now know this, this is it. And it was extremely unknown to me. That's why I was so afraid of it. I can't I can't be possibly so well, like you both have mentioned especially within the religion, it's so conditioned that this is wrong. It's bad. It's evil. It's not you know, the proclamation of the family. It's a man and a woman. Having children and our society has not been supportive of that for years and years. Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting because understanding what I know the soul doesn't have a gender. Yeah, so eventually wouldn't like if we both died, we would be genderless and still loving each other like to limit ourselves to, I can only be in love with this certain person and only have this type of process of marriage. It's they advocated as or advertised it as a way to grow within the church, but I feel like it if you continue believing into that structure, it's it. It's not it hinders the growth um, because you are limited in how you love, you're limited and who you love, you're limited in who you trust and how you how you communicate to God and it's very limiting. There isn't a possibility for growth, it's like we're waiting this lifetime out so that we can eventually grow after we wait a minute, that's not the point. It's, it's I'm starting to understand as well, that was interesting, because the crumbling of all of that happened at the same same time going to our family, our kids or siblings, or parents. Uh, a lot of the feedback from the LDS ones who are still in the church was hey, we're just be with Shelby, that's great. Just don't leave the church. Interesting. And, okay, here, have you met me? So when I'm involved in something, and I believe in it, I live it. And that's why I didn't ever swear or drink caffeine or goes to an R rated show. Like when I was LDS I was in it. And it was, it was me. I can't be part in part out. Like, there's a lot of people who that works for it just would never have worked for me. I'm in when I'm in something, I'm in it. And so to be in the church, but be directly against what they teach. Like, no way would that have worked for me, but it wasn't out of integrity. Absolutely. But so many in the church were like, it's okay, I drink coffee. I listen to everything seems I do energy he like. So I'm a cup of coffee. So double life for me, doesn't work. It won't ever work. But it wasn't this relationship that crumbled my relationship with the church. Those two things were separate. But once I let go of the church and came out of that my eyes were open to see something that was a possibility that it couldn't have allowed myself to see the veil was lifted that we talked about that kept us binded. Yeah. So allowed it to be moved so that we can be as little children truly curious, and wonder and everything's new, where we're rewriting a story or rewriting the program. Letting go of the old ones. It's interesting. I'm just gonna say how grateful I am for anyone who is still in the church believing big time, but willing to love those who have left. There's, there's there's so many of those. And then there's so many who once we left like they cut us off like there. We I remember going on a walk. Yeah, Shelby and I had our kids, we were out in the walk in the state president and his family, I saw him go, Oh my gosh. And I was I was in the state president, like I was in the I did the choir for the stake. I did the Relief Society presidency for the state, like I worked with him closely. And I love him and his wife, I did Young Women's camp with them. And I love them so dearly. And so I'm like, Oh my gosh. And they immediately smiled and looked at and once they saw who it was, they looked at me and looked at Shelby, and their eyes dropped to the floor. And they walked right past me and my family. To me, that is not what God is teaching us to do. And to be very Christ like, I was that. I was that I was that judgmental person when my brothers came to us and said, Hey, I found the man that I want to be with. I was like, No, you can't do this. You can't do it and full of judgment. And so we felt we've felt both the people who are full of judgment and and you're a bad person now because of what you've chosen, versus the people who still are willing to love us and see us as as people. I love this because it does allow for that compassion. Like I know this experience. I know having that judgment. I know what it feels like to be afraid. Afraid for others and afraid for me to if I interact with them, what what will that say about me? To have compassion on that experience? Having lived it, like if I hadn't lived it, it would be way harder to understand or have compassion for. So yeah, feeling a lot of gratitude and getting it and and still noticing the pain that it still incurs inside to having the being the receptor or the receiver of that energy. Well, and we Yeah, even we can talk to you. Yeah. Why don't you guys both know this, this story that I have shared with you. But for me, I got to really look at some places within me. And I would love for you to to share that about the Kinsey scale here in a minute. But I had some opportunities to look at those places within me of Wait a minute, could there be sexual attraction to a woman? And what would that look like and just just even going within and having some different experiences with being spending a whole day with a gay man at this hotel, I got to, you know, I got to spend a whole day with him and talk to him and communicate with them and he feel his heart and, and then happen to pick up some books that was talking about, I think it was the Magdalene manuscript, about the how she falls in love with with the heart and the mind and the soul and not body parts. And it was just so fascinating looking back to just see these things that I was kind of questioning within me, of where am I still holding on to those will know, we pick, you know, where are my prejudices against people who choose to be with someone of the same sex. And as I went through this, not long after my son finally came out as gay. And so as you're sharing about some of these people that shunned you and voicing this with thank you, for those that have been supportive, or in the church that are supportive of people who leave, it's, we have no idea, especially in this day and age, we have no idea what our children or are going to choose to experience in their lives. And if they don't feel safe enough to communicate that at home, like the detrimental effects that that has on them, not feeling safe to be them is massive, and I was so grateful that I got to go through those processes within me. So then, my my son felt safe and, and secure enough to be able to to communicate something that he's been holding on to for a few years. Oh, wow. And I'm so grateful because I've met that son. Yeah, he's just a ball of love and light. He's just, oh, he's just mute. I'm so grateful that he has that support system that he can honor his true that's going to change the trajectory of his life so big and I'm, I just, oh, he's just yummy. Right. Okay, so for the Kinsey. Dr. Kinsey is the, the major contributor to most of what we knew about sex clear up till the 2000s. He was the first person to really dive into it, research it, he was, he had was, had the money, he wrote an entire volume on the man's body. He did videos and just all of the different studies that that he created and came up with in order to teach the world about sexuality, which we were in the dark before that. Nobody was willing to lean into that and to study it and to find answers. And so when he went to go the his next volume was about the woman's body, and the colleges that had supported him shut him down. And so we didn't get we didn't get hardly any study of the female anatomy and body like the clitoris in 2003 was the first time that they actually mapped out the entirety of the the clitoris, clitoris. Really? Yeah, it's insane. Like the woman's body. We are so far behind because of Kinsey's work he was able to do on the man's body and the sexuality, but when he he was shut down, all the funding was pulled and so the female body was not able to be studied for years. So, so much power of the universe. We can't talk about it because it's so much power. We've got to shut it down. We've got you got to pretend it's not even there. So something that Kinsey studies and you can the he calls it the Kinsey scale, something that because of his research what he he came up with an understanding that the Kinsey scale like over here is completely straight over here is totally same sex attraction. He said there is no like nobody just lands on a place. It is a spectrum that that you continually move back and forth with you and many women will say when I watch porn I want I'm watching the woman and that's is that bad. Am I wrong? Am I attracted to women? He his his understanding is that it fluctuates. That we're never or just one thing or another, our judgments definitely affect where where we allow ourselves to be. But when we open ourselves up and just have the freedom to see beauty and hearts and souls instead of body parts instead of this is wrong, instead of labeling it, we, we often tend to swing on that spectrum and allow allowing yourself to just what if? Oh, my gosh, what if a woman was incredibly beautiful to me? And I am attracted to her in this moment? When have we allowed ourselves to be free? There's a time when Chubs and I first were, were starting to love each other. There was so many people on the outside world like, Okay, well, what are you? Have you always been gay? How were your closeted? Were you? Are you this? Are you that and all of the language you're leaning? Start with when you were little did you want to stay with GI Joe? College, she loved playing with Barbies, because you thought they were beautiful. And like all these things, and we're like, oh my gosh, guys, guess what? labels don't work for us. I was in love with my husband, when that was my lover. And now I'm in love with Shelby and her energy and her soul. And it I don't care that she has this part or that part. Like, so we came up with a label that works for us. It's, it's half H A L F, human loving fuck. You're gonna try to label us There you go. That's why we even made sweatshirts. And it's really, really cute. It is a it's fascinating to this picture visually in my mind that that scale, that if we pick one spot, and we stay there and identify it for our entire life, like there's so much of the scale that we're missing, and that's kind of a microcosm of the macrocosm of the world is we pick one spot. And we go, that's why I am. That's where I'll always be, and I won't do anything different. And then I'm like, but there's this whole Wow, there's this whole scale. Do you want to like slide a little bit one way just to see a little bit just a little bit, even in your sexuality exploration like, Okay, you're, you're essential. But what if you tried on some king? What if you tried on some energy energetics? What if you like in everything in everything? Okay, this is the kind of food you like and prefer, but what if it's the choosing before you experience? I guess that that is what I'm noticing. If I don't have the experience, then how can I make an educated choice, but when I can have the experiences of one side of the scale versus the other side of the scale and and have some background? Now I can say this is definitely my preference. And I have I have experienced that. And I have experienced that. And I found my sweet spot. And I loved every day. I didn't need Google always go the other sex. Well, and I do I do want to and we need to wrap up soon. But I do want to touch on because I just got to participate in your experience retreat, which was, what, two weeks ago, three weeks ago to, I don't even know. And one of the things that I found fascinating to witness of myself was one of the biggest pieces we dove into was shame because we hold a lot of shame around sexuality and preference and kinks and that kind of things. And being able to be open and have these open conversations and experience things that why normally wouldn't experience actually allowed for the capacity to love more and to have more connection with my partner than I would have thought because usually we shut that down. When we don't talk about this or this feels really shameful about ourselves our this is bad or this is wrong or no I don't want to go there because I don't want to create you know, ripple effects or whatever it is. But it did it allowed for I felt closer to my partner and had more capacity of love than before that experience. And that's something that I think is always fascinating to witness right. So when you're talking about that shall be of you know, don't shut it down until you experience there is truth in that. And there's always choice and what we want to do and when we want to choose different things, but yeah, yeah, if there's any, any inclination, any question any curiosity and within us, like there's some things that I'm not at all curious about. And in this current moment, I don't care to experience what It would be like to be, say a murderer. Like, that's just not something that cost me. It's not an experience. And I think I've actually had that in past lives and I actually did. I have killed flies, and spiders. You know, I have experienced the beetle last night I did see the beetle. Okay. She believed it was trying to attack her, but it wasn't it was very docile beetle, but she swore it was the killer coming after her. Beetle buddy can go now I did not kill him because it's not my preference to kill any living creature. But I have done it before and I have experienced it. So I know in some elements I guess I have, but to be able to find if there's any any curiosity in our hearts that any ping that says Oh, I wonder what that would be like. That is I have a clue. It's a it's your sole symbol or signal saying hey, this is an experience that might be for you might be beneficial. So you're gonna throw this in there. Shelby is not talking about harming or No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, absolutely. So just making sure that put out that disclaimer. Like thing is our heart never anyone our heart and soul never calls for those things. It doesn't so when we're when we're feeling like we're going into dangerous territory of Oh say loving someone else like I'm I just say question. Question that you're questioning love. That I mean, yes, question when there's a thought in your mind that says there's there's harm involved or hurting someone, please do question that. But when it comes to loving and exploring and understanding you on a deeper level, what if you just release yourself, please allow, please offer yourself the opportunity to explore even a little bit or just tell your heart I'm willing. And the universe is always conspiring in our favor. And when we are willing, it will offer us beautiful opportunities, place them at our feet, even where we didn't even see them coming. And then until I do see are coming now. I love seeing her coming now. But they were just coming off a high of experience. It's true. Yeah, DLR. Although you guys, let's be for real, you guys are always like this. And you are truly a beautiful couple. And the energy that you carry individually and together is both of that unconditional love space, complete freedom. And just a lot of expansive energy. That's quite beautiful. So I celebrate both of you. So oh, well, I love you. Just to wrap up, is there any? Is there any thoughts, advice, wisdom that you would love to impart or give to any listeners that may be going through? We've I mean, we've crossed a lot of subjects here. Um, so I don't know if there's anything that just as is popping as I'm, I'm communicating? Yeah, here's the last piece that I would love to put in, like, yes, and it kind of kind of goes along with just everything that we're sharing. So when you choose to leave the church, when you choose to do something different no matter what it is, if it's leaving the church or, or changing sexualities, or getting a new friend, whatever. The people who have known you, as one person, they, they tend to want to hold you in to that place. My invitation is holding space for them in return, we really want them to hold space for us as we as we're transforming as we're changing as everything's different for us. What if we are the ones who hold space for them or wherever they are. So it's been about four years that shelves and I have been able to be together and having left our marriages and are in the church, holding space for my siblings. My parents might the loved ones that I have that are still very much believing and that is important to them. I had a sister last night in our home, begging me for forgiveness for how hard she has judged me and how much like she hasn't let her children into my home like through all the ways that she's withheld her love from me and I have just held space for where she was and what she was going through. And look, look at how sometimes it flowers open and shifts. But I didn't need to judge her for judging me. What if we meet each other in the had unconditional love and non judgmental space that were so craving and wanting from other people. Let's be that and hold space for wherever the other people in our lives, we had so many people leave our lives and some of them have come back and said, Wow, I judged you like crazy and I want to be back in your world. Some of them haven't come back. And it's beautiful, all of it. So that's my invitation for myself included, is to hold space of unconditional love for yourself first, and then and then all of those all of the ways that this is landing on the people that we love, and who raised us and mentored us and struggle with us choosing differently than than what they've known. Yeah, that's the biggest piece of a lot of people who have left the church are like, but everybody preaches Christ, like love, but they're not doing it. And then we get out of the church, and we get very angry and pissed off and step out of this judgment of non Christ like or unconditional love. And we step right into it again, on the outside. Yeah, we do. And it's a beautiful healing process, if we can remember what we were our, our main intention was, and that was to actually find truth, and to find that love that everybody talks about, but we haven't seen it demonstrated to be that. And the we tell I tell all of my clients is that they if I can give you one key one piece that will change your life forever. And it's just one it would be learning to love yourself. First, in that unconditional space because we we are the ones who continue the shame, and telling the same stories in our head and perpetuating the lies and perpetuating the false beliefs in our minds and taking what we experienced and abused as like being abused. As children, we abuse ourselves as we're older. Please be kind to you notice when you're being hard on you, when you're being judgmental on yourself, and you're shaming yourself and you're perpetuating the very things you're wanting to leave, you're still doing it. When we can learn to love self first, it will ripple out and it will change the world. And that's why we left guys, because it wasn't working. That love space wasn't, didn't feel real, it felt manual felt written down by man. And so to self care, be compassionate. Find where you're bullying and being abusive to yourself. And turn it around. Yeah, find where you're lying to yourself. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. If someone wanted to get in touch with you to either know of any upcoming retreats you have, or I believe you guys do sessions, right. Now if they're wanting to reach out to you, what's the best way that they can get in touch with you both? We are both on Facebook Shelby Smith CAMI Rhodes Mitchell, we do have a, an events page that we do post some of our events when we remember. Technology's not our forte. So if you just want to text us, I don't know. Can we leave our numbers here? Or is that like, well, I eat if you want me to. I can put it in the show notes. If you do want that out there. Yeah, I'm good. But I'm detects that that we follow that much more than an email or anything else. Okay. In the show notes. Okay, great. I approve this message too. Oh, thank goodness. So do I so mean Shelby? Well, I just love you, too. Thank you so much for spending the time with all of us today, especially for me. My day will be so much better now. Oh, we love you, Amanda. Thank you so much, honey. Yep. Thank you, JJ. Did they tell you or did I tell you? And I'm curious in this space, what is the biggest takeaway for you from this interview with them from the wisdom that they shared and their story of where what they went through? Just taking a moment of what really inspired you? What were the pieces that are still kind of percolating and if you are in that place where you're still trying to deconstruct religion, I highly highly recommend either either snagging my book, leaving religion a guide. Actually, if you go to Amazon and you search up leaving religion, and those we leave behind you will find my book, as well as head over to my website I created and curated have these beautiful guided meditations to really assist you in deconstructing God, your ordinances, the covenants that you made. And so that you can let go of what was and be open and available for what's asking to come into you. Because there are things that are asking to come into your world that I'm you may be able to feel them, but you can't quite see them yet. So when we clear the old we allow for the new, I will put the links down for both my book as well as the guided meditations, I highly recommend both of those if you're looking for tools and ways of how to deconstruct even further where you are at and heal those wounds within you. And, like I mentioned, and like they mentioned, I'm going to put down their their cell phone numbers in the show notes. So if you want to connect even further with shall be Academy and see about doing any one on one, work with them, seeing what other offerings they have coming up, go ahead and shoot them a text and go head over to my website and get registered for our inbody experience coming up September 22 through 25th only available for 14 people and registration is open this week. So this will sell out, head over to my website, Amanda loveland.com forward slash i n b o d y and secure your spot today. And wherever you are today, I hope you take a moment to breathe. To breathe in the beauty of all that you are the wisdom that you're cultivating and learning the gifts that you're cultivating and learning through the challenges through the struggles through the unwinding and unbinding of the places that you have been in. When we move through places like this, we cultivate some of our greatest gifts. So celebrate you celebrate and honor where you are and where you have come from. Honor where you are, celebrate your wins, see your wins and have gratitude for who you are and all that you're doing. And is always sending you so much love know that you are not alone.