Her Story, Part 2 with Rachael Wheeler

After a beautiful and raw first episode I, along with several others, were left wondering about more of Rachael's story. I was grateful when she agreed to sit down with me again.

Sharing about her journey as a child, being an olympic junior medalist, growing up within the mormon religion, her marriage and how they chose to navigate things like how they wanted their children to view the human body, a bit different than what the church teaches.

This is a beautiful episode as Rachael shares that she still feels called to go to church and be a part of opening doors to other possibilities.

To join my next INbody Retreat Experience head over to https://www.amandajoyloveland.com/inbody

Connect with Rachael:

Email: rachaelsbeautyparlor@gmail.com

IG: Rachael.wheeler.376

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For more tools to assist you in stepping out of religion: https://www.amandajoyloveland.com/leavingreligiontools

Grab my latest book! Leaving religion, a guide to finding your spiritual center after religion: https://www.amazon.com/Leaving-Religion-Those-Leave-Behind/dp/1952566487/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1FUQQ23L4I458&keywords=leaving+religion+%26+those&qid=1655217437&sprefix=leaving+religion+%26+those%2Caps%2C126&sr=8-1

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:05

Welcome, welcome, welcome. I am excited to share this episode with you as it is a part two of Rachel's interview. And I know that after our last interview, which was a few weeks ago, there was a lot of wondering more of her story. So she said yes to interviewing a second time and actually sharing a little bit more of her her story, and I am so excited to share this with you. And before we dive in just a reminder of my upcoming inbody experience that I am co facilitating with three other amazing women, September 26 22nd, through the 25th. And that will be in Springdale, Utah. And guess what? Something actually really, man, when you listen to spirit, and you're you're tuning in, and always kind of asking how things get to be a little different. It's always funny and interesting, the things that show up. So this retreat experience is converting to a donation based. And so we are tuning in and trusting the divine and trusting all of you. And so, we are, you get to go through and do a few steps, because we will have a lot of people applying and we only have room for 13 people, there is a questionnaire to go through and a few steps to to do and then if you are selected, then you get to tune in and check in with you and your connection to the divine and you get to pay what feels in alignment for you. Some people it may, you know, be a lot less than others. And that is okay, we are trusting this experience and trusting this opportunity to have a new relationship with money and reciprocity. So if you are wanting to attend and join us, head over to my website, Amanda joy loveland.com, forward slash inbody. That's INBOD. Why, as Amanda J loveland.com, forward slash, I n, b, o d y and just follow the steps to the website. And yeah, we would love love to have you this is going to be a really, really beautiful experience. So with all of that being said, let's dive into this interview with Rachel Wheeler. I had my I've never done an episode like that, where we just kind of even though I've been wanting to because you're not the only one that has everybody that I talked to has something. And so and so I thought was just beautiful, a that you allowed yourself to be seen in that space, and just had the courage to lean in. So again, I just want to thank you for that. And on top of that, I I really feel like by you doing that it gives others permission to just be seen. And that's what I was doing. My real about this morning is it's you know, we get into the such a state of being needing to be perfect and have shit together all the time. And it's like, nobody does, I don't care who you are. Anyway, so thank you for that. And I was listening to it on the way down with my husband, we headed down south and he's like, I really want to know more about her. And I'm like, you know, I was thinking about doing a part two. So when he said that, that's where I'm like, Alright, I need to reach out because that was his thing is like, I want to know more about her story, because it sounds like she's got quite a story. So thank you for agreeing to do a part two. So I know on our last episode, you kind of touched on a few things with your with your story. But you were were you raised in Utah. Were you in Idaho? You were in Utah. Born and raised Mormon. Yeah. How was that? Yeah, it was good overall. I mean, I still to this day, primary songs and hymns run through my mind all the time to give me little messages of comfort and things like that. I loved the culture and an amazing childhood. My parents were very, very strict, but also very consistent. And my mom was pretty attentive. Overall. She kind of spoiled me, because I'm kind of like the little version of her the side that she loved. I was spoiled. And, yeah, my mom was absolutely amazing. I mean, she would get down on the floor. From the time we were a little tiny and just be playing with us teaching us how to color and draw and she would be out playing sports with us and teaching us just all different skills. So my siblings and I were very well rounded and very talented, very creative. I love that. So you were you married later on in the church? Yeah. So I grew up in the church, and then I graduated high school and went off to college, but things kind of fell apart. I went, I actually went off to college on a full ride scholarship, throwing the javelin. Oh, sweet. And I got the opportunity. It's funny because my older sister she would do things and I just admired her and so I would be an icon I want to try that too, just as an endearing thing. But she did it every time. And at one point during high school, she's like, Stop copying me, because I would go and try something that she loved to do. And I was just really, really good at anything. So when I was 13, she joined the track team. So I'm like, oh, that sounds like fun. Maybe I could try something. And I saw the devil and I went out and I tried everything at least once. But the javelin, I threw it. And it spun over itself, because I didn't know what I was doing. But I was two feet away from qualifying for state throwing it that first time, wow. And then, three short weeks later, I think I was 1413 or 14, I heard that there was the Junior Olympics happening in Illinois. And my track coach is like, we're gonna fly you out. You're going to the Junior Olympics straight now. So I ended up winning a gold medal in the Junior Olympics. That's amazing. And then, but anyway, so I grew up, LDS, but I'd moved to new place during this 12 and 13. Year, and had a lot of bullying because I was no longer known by the group of friends that I had. And so I became really, really shy. I was having bullying from all different sources, like on the bus at school, all different groups of boys were bullying me. So I became extremely shy wasn't that same happy go lucky, outgoing, silly, creative, whatever. I just allowed myself to be before that. Anyway, I was, I learned that through puberty, that I was kind of terrified of men. Like when the boys started having their voices change, all of a sudden, I found myself extremely intimidated and felt like the, like, I just stayed away from him. I was scared to death of men in general. And that definitely, I think, the whole puberty transition plus that triggered something within me that I didn't know was there. So I didn't really date in high school at all. But then when I was 18, and I started well, 17 and started attending college. Then guys started asking me out, well, I turned 18 In October, just a couple months later. And so I started going out on little dates here and there. And then I, my parents moved to Colorado, right after I graduated high school at 17. And so I went back for my full ride scholarship at UVU. It was UPSC, then, but it'd be you. And within two and a half months, things just completely fell apart. Everything was going wrong. Yeah, I lost my wallet. I missed a major test. And a couple other things that made me lose my scholar ship. No, no, sorry, I did that full year. And then it was the following year that I went back and things fell apart. I might be remembering details wrong. But my parents started doing foster nanny during that time. And I was their full time foster nanny for a while. And then I was going to school off and on and, and working otherwise babysitting and things like that off and on. So at age 1920, and 21, I think I was either attending college online, or going to community college in person there. And also taking care of my, my parents, foster kids. And I wanted to serve a mission at 21. So I filled out all the paperwork, and I was going home. I mean, at age 13, because of the bullying, I started praying, like every morning and every night. I'm studying my scriptures every morning and really trying to get to know God, and what his purpose was for me. And so I had been doing that the whole time till 22. Whenever those little seminary things came around, it was like, I have read my scriptures for 30 days, I've read my scriptures for 90 days, you know, 120 days, every time I just wouldn't have my parents sign it because it was like, no questions asked, you know, that was my lifeline. Yeah, to make sure that I could feel connected to God and kind of hear his voice to be able to help or see if I saw a need for service or being able to see people for who they truly were. That was the gifts that I was honing in on for all those years. And also learning wisdom through the scriptures and through being connected. Anyway, so yeah, I was wanting to submission because that was all me I had been like a full time missionary the way that I was living my standards and everything for many years by then. And any chance I got I did try to share the book more random things like that with other people. So I filled out all the application, did my doctor appointment, even did pictures for my mission, and then was gonna send it in. But I prayed about it. And the same answer kept coming that marriage was next. And motherhood was next. And that was my mission. So be patient a little longer is the answer I received. And I never sent it in. And, and but I also tried to move out and just go get roommates at my parents, my dad had been laid off from Novell, after so many years of working because he didn't have a bachelor's degree. And so they were really struggling financially. And so they were having me kind of take care of the foster kids, while they tried to get ahead a little bit because they were in major debt. And so they were like, we really needed they would talk me out of every time I tried to leave at 820 and 21. So I stayed there. Until that had to be hard. Yeah. And, and then I, I was dating quite a bit, off and on. And I ended up meeting Dan, the one that I was married to for 18 years, when I was 20. And then we started dating the beginning of the next year. And ended up getting married within six months of knocking each other marry in the temple and then did the Mormon thing for a while. Yeah, so yeah, we're very active LDS. I mean, I raised my kids the same way. Meaning we were very active. And we still are actually, I still go to church with them all the time. And they go to the all the activities and stuff like that. But the cool thing is, is that Dan, from the beginning of our marriage, kind of questioned why I did things. And that helped me to not just do things because my parents did them or out of tradition, or this is just the right thing. Yeah. So we both have raised them in a way that's very pro freewill. That's good. Think outside the box. Sudo, explore whatever you need to explore. And my emphasis for my kids is adult, just make sure that your piece is intact. If there's something that's robbing you of your peace and, obviously, don't go toward that so much. Yeah. Did you say they're still active LDS? Are you and and I am, I pretty much go when I want. But I'm pretty active still. Yeah, I, the word where I kind of got kicked out is night and day difference from the word that I actually moved into. Yeah, I went this first Sunday to the new board. And the comments that were made in Sunday school, I'm like, these people are real and raw. And they're not afraid to make that this is the this is an awesome group of people. Yeah, that's refreshing. And then I went back to their ward yesterday, my where my kids are in the boundaries, they just live down the road, by the way. And okay, do I have anything to contribute here? Do I have anything to receive here? Yeah. And the spirit was just like, I mean, it's your choice. Because there have been so many times where I've been so triggered at their word that I've just like, gone home. And it's been a release, like I bought, yeah, or halfway through, I start bawling, because there's so much of it's too much of programming this much. And it's a lot. And but at the very, very end of yesterday's Sunday school lesson, I stuck with it. And at the very end, I was actually able to make a comment. And there was another woman that made a comment, and I totally got the chills and like, yes, divine feminine coming right in Thank you. You know, because they were focusing on how 18 year old boys need to be serving missions, and how can we encourage them to do that? And she came right in, she said, everyone's got their own path. And we need to, you know, honored that somewhat, she said that. And I was like, yes, thank you. We need the balance. It's not just, it's my 18 year old son was in there. And he's not in a mental state to be able to go serve a mission. I'm like, maybe in a year, if you feel up to it, and you really feel motivated, then a service mission, right. But it's a lot you have to know why you're doing it. It's not an easy thing, and be really strong in the work that you're doing to get out there and do it. So So in our last interview, you had mentioned that you kind of you pretty much got kicked out so I Yeah, because of that, that story that you shared with with you just moving through some of those pieces within you. And you're still choosing to go Go to church. Yes, because there was a point where I was bawling out of grief for all that I had lost just the ideal. I mean, the marriage was absolutely miserable for me. But just I had lost the marriage and the ideal family unit. And, you know, and also the community, I thought I'd lost the community. And yeah, everything that my parents and grandparents, you know, this is the right way this the right way, this the right way. So I was just grieving. And God or the Holy Spirit came right in and said, Rachel, please stay needed for the changes that need to be made. Yeah, did your presence is needed by a lot of people. And through falling, I said, I will, as much as I can. How's that been? So for months, it was really hard. Like I said, I would start crying like halfway through or right after church, I would just cry. And I allowed myself to just grieve. And it's much better now. Because the stronger I get in who I am without that, that does not identify me, then the easier it is to just go there and shine my light and to be pure love for everyone. Yeah, what was the you said you would grieve? What were you grieving? I was grieving the loss of everything. And like I said, this is a very, very strong generational thing. I mean, this is the right way you follow the Prophet, you do this, you do that. And also, I feel like I had an even more strongly because in my very, very early childhood years, I had my biological father's influence over my mother, who is who has always been pretty extreme. Fundamentalist. Yeah, mindset. So I think that really affected me more than more than I realized. Yeah, from the womb? Oh, absolutely. I know, there's, I've had conversations with a decent amount of people that they have left or had some sort of this is not this doesn't resonate with me any longer, but then they are told to stay, or they choose to stay for whatever reason. So it's always fascinating, and why people choose to stay in and there is that I remember going through a phase in my life, where you do miss the community, you miss some aspects of it. And I wondered, I actually had a conversation with a beautiful friend of mine, that she's like, Yeah, I go to Relief Society every once in a while. And I'm like, Really, you still step into that? She goes, yeah, it's just community. I mean, it's just like any kind of a, if we kind of detach from everything that's coming other mouse has to be my ultimate truth, because that's where we once were. Right. Yeah. And let it just be connection and just being experience. She's like, it can actually be quite beautiful. Yeah, it really can. There's so so much beauty and light to it. And, you know, I realized that for a lot of years, just because of my ex husband's influence, which I'm forever grateful for, I mean, he seriously raised me and all the ways that it wasn't raised years. And it's been 16 plus years that I've been learning and programming. And so it's been a much longer process that I've been less, almost like dependent on. I don't I don't take things so seriously, is what I'm saying. But I do try to take the treasures and the truth wherever I can. I should be just as excited to go to the LDS church as I am to learn about all these different religions, but I've been more understanding lately and I love truth. Yeah. It doesn't matter if the resource one there is truth in all things and I find it I actually just did another interview that I'm not sure if I'm going to drop his before yours. I'm still sitting with that right now. It's going to drop this week. But we he's someone that has done a deep dive into the scriptures and more like the accurate translation which you know, things like the Sermon on the Mount, right? We're be there for perfect and it's like, well, perfect actually was mistranslated, its whole. And so it's just interesting. The you know, there's that common saying that don't throw the baby out with the bathwater or God, God and Jesus aren't church, you know, they're separate from it. And when we start to kind of deconstruct those pieces of because it is ingrained within Mormonism that it's the only true church out there that has the complete, you know, whatever on this earth. And if we step out of that programming, can can you I guess this is like a rhetorical question for the audience. Can you step into a situation like that and still learn things take the parts that resonate and leave the rest aside because there is truth and beauty In all things, whether it's the Mormon Church, Catholics, Jews, you know, wherever it is, there's truth and beauty and all things. Yeah, I was thinking about recently, you know, as I've talked to my LDS friends, I still have a lot of LDS friends, my best friend is very much in it, but she gets a lot more angry about certain things that are said over the pulpit than I do. You know, she's like, someone says this, and, and, like, Yeah, I'm a little more of a, I've learned to be an observer more, just kind of be entertained by it in a way, but also have pure love. Because, you know, everybody has programming, I have plenty of it left to myself, and I still judge just like everybody else as well. So we can, we can let that go. What I was thinking is, I'm kind of have always been a rebel of when things are too imbalanced, one way or too extreme in one way I will, because I'm kind of like living water, I'll bring in the balance wherever there's imbalance. That's my natural gift and my natural way. And so as I was sitting in, in listening to actually, I think it was President, he's got to be the mission president, and that was making this long. I mean, he's perfectly still and perfectly calm and perfectly competent in the way that he expresses himself. And I thought, Oh, my goodness. That is, to me, as I sat, and that word over there, they represented the divine masculine. And what I'm bringing in is the divine feminine. And that's why God wants me to stay in there, too, because it's just as important. It'll, it'll balance out things over time. And I think there's plenty of women that are filling in boiling up within them as well and are speaking up. Yeah, there's, there's little changes being made. But I think we've been so competent in what we've had for so many, really, centuries, but in the LDS church, you know, hundreds of years that we just don't question it. And I've had to learn to discern, how do I feel truth? How do I understand truth, and for a lot of my life, with the very regimented, extreme discipline that I displayed in every area of life, that's why I started developing talents, a lot of different ones. And I was really young. That was the divine masculine stepping in, I felt the spirit, I felt that warmth, that burning within my heart so often. And I felt the direction of the spirit, Do this, do that. And, and so I still incorporated that as I started raising my kids. But I was so sleep deprived, and so burnt out all the time, that, that I felt like that was my lifeline, studying my Scriptures with my kids doing family night praying. And doing those core things, teaching them how to work in the morning, doing their chores, going to the park in the afternoon, reading to them a lot, and making them good food and things like that I was still practicing self discipline, but I felt like such a failure because there was no I couldn't feel spirit a lot of the time because severe postpartum depression and severe sleep exhaustion. So I felt very alone, I call that 14 years, my Gethsemane or my dark night of the soul. And after so long of that my uncle calls these years of child raising, he calls them the pressure cooker, your career years, I think after 16 or 17 years of that I just completely blew a gasket. And I said, I've been doing all these things, but I'm not happy and I'm not a piece. And there's got to be something more to it. There came a point where I started just letting go of certain things, pressuring myself to do things just right all the time. And that's when I it was after my total nervous breakdown slash rebirth, that I started just stepping into the void and saying, It's okay, I can learn to be comfortable in the cold in the dark, and I can bring like, and interestingly, I didn't know this about myself before, but I love being in cold water as often as I possibly can, going swimming, walking in streams to waterfalls and, and splashing in puddles when it's raining. That is my happy place. And I do feel more happy and more at peace overall than I ever did when I was doing everything just right and so to fill the contrast of that, that old way that is also very important. The LDS church does things by a certain rulebook and that is the divine masculine and so they have it down very strongly and that's why when a lot of people listen to the speakers and everything that burning that warmth, that that feeling of this is consistent This is stable is right there and So it's important for us now to bring in also the divine feminine. And that is, to me, the gathering of Israel or the union that's starting to take place. And it's interesting because my little brother that was adopted, I was his first Mom, he still considers me a mother figure. He calls me whenever he's struggling. He's in his early 20s. He was checking out the Catholic church, I was really drawn to it more recently, he's like, I'm gonna get baptized in the Catholic Church. And I thought, Hmm, I wonder why he's drawn to that. And I thought, you know, the emphasize grace, a lot more than our church. And that's probably what he's needing. As far as life. After being raised by our parents, we're very, very strict and very, again, divine masculine. You do it this way. You do it this way. This is the right way. Right? This and this and this, and it'll be fine. You know, I, how do I want to phrase this, I as I'm listening to you, and I recently had a conversation with another woman who went through something similar to where she was doing all the things she was supposed to do, right. And, and within that religion, it is taught that when you do these things, you will be blessed when you do the, you know, by the by the book kind of things, family home, evening scriptures, prayers, you know, you will be blessed. And, and we had an interesting conversation about that, because it's simply not true. But there is what I feel this is my Amanda's take on this is that it creates a false sense of safety, that we think that if we do these things, or we're taught that if we do these things that we will be protected, we will be safe, we will be blessed. And the truth is, is is that that's anywhere in the world, we have these things that we don't do, because or we do do because they give us a false sense of safety. And yeah, it's always that I love some of the things that you're sharing about with asking, how do you understand spirit? How do you discern for you, Rachel, for you, not from outside of you, but for you. And even that safety piece is something that if everything was stripped away from any of us, would we be so in knowing who we are that we could still feel safe within ourselves if everything was gone? Yes. And yeah. And that's where the Divine Feminine comes in, when that one made that comment yesterday, because it was all one way, one way, one way. And then Mr. President, was saying his piece, and then she came in and made her comment, and it was chills, there's the divine feminine, the recognition of truth there. And you're, you're totally right. And that I talked to my 18 year old son all the time, I said, you're not really living, if you think you depend on this, and that, you know, you've got this false sense of security. And that's the main thing with my ex husband and the way that he does things. He had this set way of being with me as well, like, I was just easygoing, and I would do whatever doesn't make me and a subservient wife. And the moment that I started approaching him in a very gentle way, again, very filtered, and telling him when you say this, or when you act like this, I feel this way. And that way, that way, the rug was pulled out from under him, and he started lashing out like crazy and, and becoming not only mentally abusive, but physically abusive. And and so that's the problem is that eventually the rug will be pulled out from under each of us and, and when I hear people speak, especially men in the church that are so confident and so perfectly, like, wow, they haven't had that happen yet. Yeah. Are all of our come to Jesus moments of like, false truths and what real truth is, and I, when you speak to the feminine, the masculine and my, in my experience, and what I believe to be very true is that the feminine the masculine actually lives within each of us. You know, you could look at the structure of the body, or the things like the blood pumping, and the like, the actual structure of the physical body is more of the masculine energy, the flow of the blood pumping, the flow of the breath, moving, the flow within the container is more of that feminine energy. And that's what is alive within each of us. Because we often think because I'm a woman, then I only get to have this divine feminine cycle that in my belief in my knowing that's not true, we get both the feminine and the masculine within each of us. And so I think it's it is there is an imbalance in a lot of ways and a lot of pieces that we're all trying to figure out, which I think is really, really beautiful to bring more balance into all things even within religion would be quite refreshing. Yeah, it really wanted to Yeah, you're right. It's interesting, too, though, but I'm seeing the energetic representation of that very divided with men and women in at least in that word yesterday when but, but yeah, I know we've got it. I mean, obviously, we're trying to create that balance. within ourselves, I was just thinking back to when I was 13. And I went through puberty, I had already taken on a very masculine representation of myself from the age of first grade. Because to me, boys were tough, and they were vulnerable. And I had grown to hate my own vulnerability. So that's when I think I formed that side of me that was extremely athletic. Like, from the very beginning, I went out, and to a brand new school in first grade and went out and all the boys were like, she can't play. She's a girl we were still in. So I go out to the baseball field, and I go to hit it, and I swing and miss the first time. The second time I hit it way out there. So that's so cute. So yeah, I, I looked at myself on a video when I was 12 years old, and watch the way I walk. And I have a super short hair like I do now, actually. But obviously, I've embraced my feminine side a lot more. But just talking and walking, and I really did have like my first crush on a girl. And I wished to be a boy, especially when I was going through puberty. I had such anger toward for some reason, the feminine within me that had been hurt so badly from early childhood that I had, like, the worst menstrual cramps, like the worst. I mean, I'd be shaking and going into shock and throwing up and everything like that. And I think a lot of that was psychological stuff that I hadn't worked through. Oh, I bet. I bet. So did you I think you mentioned that you were military wife, right? Yeah. So did you move around a lot. Every two years and half the time it was out of state. Were like an out of out of the United States ever or all all women we I I knew that my my lifeline would be being able to travel to family. So I did. When my kids were younger, I would go every four months out of state to go visit family just feel connected and get a break. Well, I can. I can imagine moving that often having religion having the Mormon church was a lifeline. Yes. Like, yeah, you always knew your community. Even if it was new. You always knew you had somewhere to go. Yeah, it was, although I had plenty of interesting experiences good and bad. Because Dan and I have always been outside of the box thinkers? Yeah. So you probably ruffled some feathers, depending on which board you went into. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, that that had to be a gift. I know, I moved a little bit when I was younger, and it was a gift to know, okay, I have I know where my community is, you know, it's within the walls of this Mormon, Mormon church, and I would be welcomed. And I was really grateful for that. And it was nice to to have an experience outside of Utah. I mean, one of my first experiences was in Germany. Actually, that's not true, as in Virginia, but in Germany, you know, and having because we would go to the military Ward out there, because it was English speaking. Even though my, my ex, my husband at the time, he wasn't he was, it wasn't a military thing. He was German. So it was nice to be able to step into that and be like, Oh, my gosh, just people from all over. And everybody's a lot more open minded. And anyway, it was I loved it. Yeah, that's so cool. Yeah, I really love that. So we're where you're at today is that, from everything that I'm hearing, the things that you have gone through, have really ultimately taught you more about you. How to hear your own voice with God. And and you're choosing still to go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there's, there's too much of good stuff like I, I just it seriously, it formed a lot of who I am, I mean, reading the Book of Mormon, and I didn't listen, a lot of the time. As matter of fact, when I was in Sunday school, when I was 1314 15, I would be very participative. Because I was like, really deeply pondering, as I studied my scriptures and praying for the Spirit to guide me to understand what it meant and how I can apply it. And so there were so many more, more deep and more whole understandings that came as a result of that. And so I was, at that age, I was very participative. But since then, it seems like the most the majority of the classes that I attend, are stuck in that same well, they're there. They're not even to where it was that you just 1516 Because I think my that is my main gift is to understand, I have an understanding spirit. That's kind of a superpower like me, you have to experience a lot of different things to be able to understand. But just my ability to communicate with to hear God's voice and to communicate with him and understanding how that works. So I've always been into symbolism and metaphors and things like that, and I've always just pondered on those things. steeply. Yeah. I love it. I mean, I eat it up all the time. So it's gonna be when they ask questions nowadays, and I'm like, that's a question that asked when I was 13 years old. And I explained to like what I had learned from the Scriptures. And it feels like they're stuck in a lot of ways, because I feel like the majority of them haven't really spent. You. I don't know. I, it feels like my pride gets in the way. But in this way, I was very, very gifted. And, and it kind of bugs me that they're so stuck in the same, like, oh, we need to learn this. And I'm like, women through being mothers, you already know this. And you have so much more insight. Yeah, I'm happy when the women generally speak up, because there's so much they can offer. And it's so funny that so many of the men, especially the leaders, that have been leaders, for a long time, are very, very competent, and the women are just like, are shaking the Royces and more the owner authority, and that's probably why I'm here. And maybe when I learned her, because I'm still working on that, you know, that's a brand new thing for me to even think that maybe when I set the example, then others will start following suit. I don't know. I think that's beautiful. I, I have to ask, I'm curious why you reached out to do a podcast about leaving religion if you're still choosing in. I mean, I'm not a member. And it's like, I am a member. It's the exact same thing. It's funny, because these are parallel things that happened to me the same time. I got divorced. I'm not married to him. Yeah, him and my children are still my family. Yeah. So I'm not married to the church. But for a long time, I've been doing things my own way. I hate being assigned to somebody to serve. It's like, No, I'm gonna go by the Spirit. And people are going to be drawn to me, and I'm going to be drawn to them. Yeah. So I've always been kind of a rebel of the way things are done. And that's probably why the marriage was so hard to because he's very much that way. Yeah. Things have to be done a certain way. Yeah. I think it's always fascinating. I had another podcast interview a while ago, where she's like, I don't identify as Mormon. And yet she went to church every Sunday. In fact, I believe she had her she wore garments, she did all the things that she's like, but I don't identify as being a Mormon. And it was like, my brain was like, I don't care. I don't understand that, like, I don't like you're doing all the things is it for Mormon, and yet, you're saying you are not Mormon. So it is just a different way of being with it, which I think is beautiful. When you find what works for you. And how you want to navigate life with religion without religion with spirituality. Without spirituality. I think it's quite beautiful when you listen to your, your voice, your inner knowing, and then you act upon that, even if it doesn't make sense. Yeah, yeah, it's, it makes perfect sense to me. Now, I love the temple. But I have temple sacred experiences all the time, wherever I am. Wherever you stand, you can stand in holy places. So I don't love that they emphasize so much and create this almost total dependence on the brick and mortar and the way of you need to study your scriptures. There's all kinds of resources that you can study all kinds of good books and different religions and different cultures and documentaries and everything. Yeah. To understand truth more fully, right? It's kind of silly to say you must do it, you must only do this every single day. So that pray, rebelled against a lot. But yeah, but I'm there to do that. Another one of the things that I've always been told you're doing that wrong, like if somebody is classically trained, for example, in piano or in singing, I tend to do things, almost the opposite. And what I'm realizing is that I, I'm kind of a lot of the embodiment of the divine feminine. That's probably why I trigger a lot of people. Yeah, I am the undoing of all the, all the BS. And so, so yeah, it's interesting. How can being taught the different motions and energy just the spiraling up and down and the unscrewing? I think it was a few months ago, I was unscrewing something. I'm like, Oh, this is the divine feminine, the unscrewing of and then you put back together in a more complete way, and then you're screwed. And that's the divine masculine. Mm hmm. That's beautiful. Well, is there anything else about your story you would love to share? Um, yeah, actually, um, I was pregnant with my second baby. And this is my all of my friends and family. know about this, but he was pondering and searching for himself. And honestly, He's not the type to, like do that to like inquire of God. He has he's a genius mind, brilliant mind, he solves problems in his mind. He's very independent that way. And so I was surprised to find that he was saying, Okay, how can we guard our boys from being trapped in the addictions, such as pornography that are out there in the world? And he was thinking about that. And he started just scrolling online and found this group called naked and not afraid. Oh, interesting. And so he went on the website and started reading his like, an E dismiss. And he came to me with it after he had studied a lot and read a lot of the reviews of the people who had chosen to implement this, this open door open discussion, open minded, you know, thing within their family. And he said, you know, all the families that row on there, they said, you know, my teenage daughter, we've, we've grown up this way, we keep the doors open, and for showering, whatever, it's not a big deal, come in and say, Oh, ask a question go right out. There's no shame involved. There's no obsession, thing. And they were saying that, like they teenage daughters, they didn't worry about them at all, because they honored their bodies enough that they didn't even I mean, they were oversized T shirts and jeans. That's how my daughters are my teenage daughters. They're very much that way. That's how they feel comfortable. And they are very strong and competent in their body image, there is no body shame. I mean, they know that they're beautiful, and they hold it sacred as well. And so Dan is like, I want this kind of result. And it because it basically race races the shape and brings in a healthy view of our bodies. Yeah. And and it's that shame cycle, which he had learned because he had done a lot of studying about why pornography, have such a hold on people. And so he started talking to me about this. And my programming went right in, and I started just, oh, this is so wrong. Let me find what the prophets have said about it, and the scriptures and everything. And I couldn't find anything. And not only that, but I immediately realized, because I do have a very extensive heart. When he was speaking to me about this, I felt peace. And when I was arguing against him, I felt contention. And that was probably the first time in our marriage where it wasn't the opposite. Because Because I felt peace when I was speaking truth if I was standing up to him when he was being contentious. And so I thought, okay, there's something to this. And so I, we both decided to pray and fast about this decision for our family, where we would have just open communication about everything and basically be raised exact opposite the way that I was raised. And we both attended the temple about three weeks after really like, we were studying our scriptures together. We were praying every day, we were asking the Lord, is this the right way to raise our family. And we went to the temple together. And we knelt around the altar to do the group prayer. And the the person praying said, if there are any questions or needs that are needing to be answered or met, that they will be it was a lot more eloquent than that. And right at that moment, later on, we were talking about it but both of us received a definite witness that yes, well, you've been inquiring of me is the right way. Yeah, your family. And we looked at each other have to apparent like, whoa, what? And so we we decided to go, because, again, we're very open minded. We love studying about all different cultures. And he had served as mission in France. And of course, there's new beaches everywhere, and it's not a big deal. So we decided to actually go to a nude beach where we lived. And we did and that's actually what got our temporary men's taken away for a few months. But the experience was so amazing. Because here we are these bright white people and they're all these. I mean, the majority of them are like, very, very overweight, super tan and probably mid 50s and 60s. So funny. And they're out there playing volleyball. They're like, You guys want to come play. It was just, I didn't just just very friendly community. We went and played. And I remember there was a camera guy, there was a guy that was in a distance he peed from behind a hill and had a camera and immediately to the people. The first one being a woman started yelling and get out of here, get out of here and one of the men started going toward him too, because it was a sacred space, and they were they were protecting us and them and, and it was seriously one of the most life altering experiences. Yeah. You know when because they lived in Germany and you brought up France, you know, in Europe, their culture is in fact, my husband, I were just talking about this not that long ago, their culture is very open minded about sex and about the physical body. And it is like you're talking about, there's no shame around it, it just is, this is who we are, we were born naked into this world. And then we put on clothes and we cover up and, and we do all these pieces. And then we create this interesting dynamic. And when, when my husband, I were having this conversation, I was asking him, I would be curious to know the amount of divorce that happens because of adultery, or pornography or the things compared to the United States. Because I would bet it's a lot less, I would bet that I went to this retreat that was called Sex perience. And it was we dove into the shame around sex and our sexuality and our desires that most of us hide and suppress. And when we do that, it creates all sorts of shame. And it's that lowest frequency and what would happen, especially with our partners, if we allow ourselves to be fully seen in these spaces, and nine times out of 10, even just talking about this desire, or this impulse, or this thing that we feel like is wrong, just talking about it, all of a sudden, it just clears it out. Like it's not even active anymore. And, and yet we have created such a culture, especially within the Mormon church, and really a lot of religions, but especially the Mormon church were with the Mormon garments, and the covering up and the, you know, needing to be modest. And it's like, I love that you're sharing this, like if we can teach our children and, and have that beautiful. There's no shame, even if I have cellulite, and I'm a little overweight, and I love that it's like it's mostly 50 and six year olds that are out there that are, you know, enjoying and living up life and just embracing and having that freedom of being seen fully. They get it is quite, it is quite beautiful. So thank you for sharing that. I think that's yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, I kind of wanted to share the after effects of that with the church and also my family members. And yeah, there was a huge flashback because I had my 18 year old sister and also my mission return missionary sister over, they came to visit me while we were living in Los Angeles, which is when this was all going down, I had gone through a miscarriage and I was having pretty severe postpartum depression on top of everything but but I was so excited because Dan was kind of deciphering between. Okay, I've actually tried viewing pornography before he said, and he said, it just makes me feel icky, and off and a little dark and not a feeling that I want. But then he pulled up these pictures of these women, there's like these nature pictures from the 70s where they're just like, standing in the nude. And just like looking at nature and like holding a butterfly or a bird or, or whatever. And they're surrounded by nature. And he's like, when I look at these, I just, I feel total, like respect and an awe and honor. You know, and he said, I, there's a total contrast between these two things. And I was excited to share that too. Because I was I felt a little shame in looking at those the nature pictures, and I have never, never seen any kind of pornography. And I don't want to but I looked at those pictures. I was like, not wanting to look but because I have always been bisexual, you know, I'm very attracted to women that way. And, and so I allowed myself to look at it and be like, yeah, like I feel reverence and honor to it's beautiful. It really is. So anyway, I I was so excited about this because I had felt the light and the peace that was flowing. And I knew many many years later that yes, despite what all of my family and Bishop and everyone had said, look at the results that this has yielded like I have absolutely no body shame. And I've taught my daughters that very strongly. But my 18 year old sister went home and told my mom, she was horrified at what I had shared with her. I probably I bet the alarms were going off and I was sharing as usual, being concerned about her kids eternal salvation, right. I called my bishop and told him well, you just correct them in this. And so here's our bishop is like 3037 28 years old, okay, been married for quite a while but no kids. And he calls us in and we tell him all that we've experienced. And he said, Well, don't go to a nudist resort or beach again or I'll have to take away your temper. recommends. And Dan was like, well, we can't promise that because that's a personal decision between my wife and I, and yeah, that we prayed about and that we received our answer. And so the bishop said, Okay, well, I'm gonna have your recommends. So each week you'd meet with us and say, Okay, I need you to go home, study your scriptures and pray and come back. And we'll see if you have not he didn't say this part, the right answer. Each week that we went home and did this, the confirmation was stronger. Like, yes, that's right for our family. Interesting. And so that was my first experience of going completely against leadership, but knowing in my heart that God had directly spoken to me and said, Yeah, right. That's beautiful. I love that you're sharing these stories of like those pieces of I know, I know what's true for me, even if it goes against the church's standards, even if it goes against these pieces. It's like it is truth. And I have to honor that I get to honor that. Yeah, that's beautiful. Well, thank you for sharing. Is there anything else that you feel called to share before we we end? No. Beautiful. Well, thank you. Like I said, already, I just appreciate you and your vulnerability and courage and all these pieces of you that you have shared with us. It's, it's really beautiful. So I appreciate you, Rachel, thank you for saying yes, thanks, appreciate it. What a unique interview, and I didn't realize that she was still attending church. And I think it's beautiful to hear different experiences, and really what feels like truth for anyone and everyone, I don't care who you are, what you're choosing as long as it feels like true to you. And you're always questioning that and checking in. I think that it is absolutely beautiful, and what a beautiful example of what that can look like. So if you are in the process of unwinding out of religion and looking for more tools, head over to Amazon and grab my book leaving religion and those we leave behind, or go to my website and pick up my leaving religion tools. These are some really beautiful tools to assist you in more of the unwinding, winding process and I will put both of those links down below the tools is if you head to my website, a manager I live on.com forward slash leaving religion tools, you will find those there. And then again, just a reminder to to come if you're feeling the call to join us for this embody experience. We are closing the applications at the end of this month. So get your application in. If you are selected as one of the 13 people then you get to check in and tune in to what feels in alignment to donate so that you can be a part of this experience. And so head over to my website Amanda loveland.com forward slash inbody. That's Amanda loveland.com forward slash i n b o d y and as always, wherever you are sending you so much love if you are feeling the call to be one of my guests. Reach out to me and let's have a conversation. have such a beautiful day.