The String That Pulled The Sweater with Liz Phillipps

Liz comes from a unique background being almost royalty within the polygamist community. Her grandfather was Rulon Allred and he was the prophet of the Apostolic United Brethren (or the AUB) until he was murdered in 1977 by a rivalry group. Later in 2014 until just this year, her father was the prophet of the AUB.

Growing up polygamist she loved it but had experiences to where she was shunned by the neighbors when they would find out that she was part of a polygamist church. The AUB was a break off from the original teachings of the Mormon church and believed that they were keeping the celestial, higher law alive by living polygamy.

If you have watched sister wives, with Christine Brown, they are a part of the AUB and Christine is a relative of Liz's.

At 16 years old, Liz chose to join the mainstream LDS church. She had to wait until she was 18 years old in order to fully join because she came from polygamy. The AUB teachings were so similar to the mainstream Mormon church that often she would have a hard time remembering which was from what religion.

She shares that she was quite happy with both religion and she was following her internal compass. She practiced mainstream Mormonism for years until her sister shared a memory that she had at young age of very inappropriate sexual acts with the leaders of the AUB. With this revelation Liz was forced to sit with the linage of what her sister had experienced and all the men that took advantage of their power. The string that pulled the sweater for her was when her dad became the prophet of the AUB. She saw that there was a line from hr dad to her grandfather, to Brigham Young to Joseph Smith and see there was an abuse of their power.

This is a truly powerful episode and one that you will want to listen to.

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:02

Welcome to my podcast leaving religion a guide. I am excited to share with you this next guest as diving into a little bit more of the the sects are the groups that broke off from the original belief system around Mormonism, there was a few things I wasn't aware of. So it's really interesting to have this conversation with my next guest. But before we dive in, I want to invite you if you're feeling like you're in a place in your life to where you're looking for more guidance, for more ways of how to tap into your gifts, your abilities with how to lean more into and learn more of what your genius is, and how to get to where you're wanting to go, I'm going to invite you to step in and join my mastermind group that's starting November 27. And this is a life elevated mastermind, and we'll be the group that's coming together is quite powerful. So I'm really, really excited. And I priced this group, it's really, really inexpensive, because it feels like there's so many that know they have these gifts, they know how they have these abilities. They know they want to to lean into their souls purpose, but they're not quite sure how. So this group is really, really going to get you closer to where you're wanting to go and offer tools and different guest speakers to help give insight. And it's just it's going to be powerful. So head to my website, Amanda loveland.com, forward slash elevated mastermind, to go get more information and to join this group today. Again, this starts November 27. And I cannot wait to see you there. So without further ado, let's dive into my next interview that I had with Liz. Well, I am so excited to be sitting down with you today, Liz and I am excited to we had a mutual friend that had a friend I mean, she's family to you, but a good friend of mine that said you need to interview Liz. And so I know a little bit of your story, but I don't know much. But I know it's a really unique experience that you've gone through. And so I'm really excited to hear you just hear everything you've gone through. So thank you for joining me and thanks for saying yes. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thanks for the opportunity. Yeah, me too. So I don't even know quite where to dive into because I don't know what your but what did you I know you come from polygamy. Were you born into polygamy? Yeah. So to put it very generalized, I come from a kind of, if you want to put it loosely, polygamy royalty. So my grandfather was ruling all red and he was the prophet of his specific Church, the apostolic United Brethren from about the mid 1950s until he was murdered by a rival polygamous group, the law barons in 1977. And so I, I was born into that group and later and from 2014, until my dad just passed away in October, he was the leader or the Prophet of the a UB. So I it kind of comes from both sides. My mom's maiden name is all red, so ruling all red and then I grew up being a Thompson. So I grew up in polygamy. That's all I knew as a child, and I loved it. I loved having tons of siblings, I loved having multiple Moms. My mom and dad were really good at making it look amazing. So I just had, it's the reality I lived in it was the water that I swam in. And so I thought it was great and wonderful. And we were taught that it's very much in tandem with the mainstream LDS church. This a up there their job, their main goal, at least while I was growing up was to keep polygamy alive until Christ comes again. And then their jobs are to teach the mainstream LDS church how to live polygamy again. So we were kind of supposed to be waiting in the wings until Christ comes again. And then because we were keeping the celestial law, the the higher law alive, doing that through living polygamy, then we would be able to teach that to the mainstream LDS. So I grew up going to public schools. I think a lot of people have misconceptions of polygamy, especially from the media, if they don't really dive into it. They assume the ones that kind of get the most attention is Warren Jeffs in the F LDS. And we were separate from them since the 1950s. We really have not been too associated with them. So I grew up going to public school. wearing regular clothes, we didn't have to dress anything weird. Our hair was normal. We very much blended into society. And that's a lot how the AU B is now, if anyone has ever worked sister wives with Kody Brown, they come from our group and I am related to Christine Brown, the one that had just left him not too long ago, at least in this past season. I don't watch a lot of it because it's very similar to how I grew up, it's not really my cup of tea to watch. But that is that is the religion that I grew up in. And my older siblings know Cody brown and the wives very well. They had grown up with them Cody's been to our house. So I was quite happy in my childhood for a very long time. And when I was 16, I had an older sister who decided to join the mainstream LDS church. And I kind of followed her through that process. And the thing that was so interesting about it is, though, I wanted to join at 16, I had to wait until I was 18. Because when you're coming from a polygamous background to go into the mainstream LDS church is actually takes a long time. It's a long process and you have to go through a lot of steps, one of them being unique with one of the 12 apostles. So it was kind of a fight to to be able to join the mainstream LDS church, but I didn't have to escape. There was no huge drama. My dad was disappointed. My mom was sad, but there was that was about it. There wasn't any huge. I didn't get kicked out of the house, I didn't lose my family, they were still very loving. So that's kind of where it came from. It's so similar to the mainstream LDS church that when I first joined mainstream LDS, I would I would sometimes have to check with people like my friends or my spouse, and ask them is, is this teaching from mainstream or is this something I'm remembering from like polygamy background and they would kind of have to walk me through it and that's fine. I was all in the mainstream LDS church for a very long time. I was baptized at 18 and I think I left in my mid 30s. Stream LDS. So I was and I was quite happy in the mainstream LDS church to because I was really good at just listening and obeying and following I really trusted the leaders, I really trusted the information I was getting, because I wouldn't understand why anyone would be deceitful or not truthful. So I was quite happy in both. I didn't leave because I was just I was I was disenchanted with either of them. I just liked because it felt like I was following my inner compass. Mm hmm. That's beautiful. I'm curious. How can you say mainstream LDS, um, if you know a lot about Mormonism, there is so many branches of Mormonism and the mainstream LDS church that's in Utah that people call Latter Day Saints, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They have really tried to distance themselves from the many break offs and branches that have come from Joseph Smith's, quote, unquote, Restoration of the gospel. One of them being the Church of Christ, that's back in Missouri. There's so many break offs of Mormonism, that oftentimes when I am fascinating between all the different branches of Mormonism, I have to be more specific on who we're dealing with. Because mainstream is kind of came from the Brigham Young, got rid of polygamy gave the blacks the priesthood in the 1978 77 era. They did all these things that and it has the largest following, but that is not. That's not all Mormonism is, I grew up Mormon. My polygamous background is Mormon. F LDS, you could call it Mormon. There's so many branches, so many break offs that when I'm when I'm so fascinated in between all of these different Mormon worlds, I have to make sure I differentiate between Yeah. That's interesting. You're the first guest that I've had that that says that phrase often, and I've really never heard that. So that's why I was curious why, but that makes sense. So did you in your religion growing up with polygamy, then did you study the Book of Mormon or did you have a different script? You did? Yeah. So the, the A, UB the polygamist background really, is similar to and draws from early Mormonism. So like the 1800s 1844 if you want to kind of put like a stamp on it, I would say if you took Mormons from the 1890s and And that's really the Mormons you're dealing with are the Mormons that I grew up with. So you're dealing with the Doctrine and Covenants Pearl of Great Price Book of Mormon. The Bible, the King James version, the old garments that go down to your ankles and wrists that have the ties in the front. You're really if you were to step back in time, the the mainstream LDS church has changed so much over time. And many times they would prefer to not recognize that the to pretend like it's always been that way. But so many things have changed over time, Temple, endowments, temple covenants, all of these different things have changed so drastically, and they really try to pretend like they haven't, that it's this. God is the same yesterday, today and forever, when realistically, their base doctrines have changed. And in the A, B and the F LDS, though they have taken some things to extremes. They, they definitely have held on to the older beliefs, the older Mormons. So it's very much exactly the same. I mean, it was hard because as a child, mainstream LDS people are especially there was a huge push in the 1980s 1970s 1980s, they were losing some of their members to the polygamist groups, because if you're doing any kind of dive into Mormon history, you find that Joseph Smith was claiming that polygamy was the everlasting covenant that that was how you made it to the celestial kingdom, which is the highest kingdom and the Mormon Heaven is having three wives or more. So if you truly believe and that is your testimony, that you want to make it to the celestial kingdom, and you want to find the base, the doctrine, the earliest doctrine that there was, you can easily get caught into polygamy. There, we had mainstream LDS people come off into our group, because it was so similar to mainstream LDS, and yet held on to some of those base early doctrines that have not been changed over time. And that is different in so many ways. But one of the really damaging things is, blacks not being able to hold the priesthood. So in these many, many polygamist groups, you're not going to find anyone of African American descent or or black or however you want to define it because they broke off before the mainstream LDS church gave the blacks or whoever you want to say the priesthood. So it's very, very old school. And so it's, we very much grew up Mormon and at the same time, we were ostracized my family specifically, but most polygamous children are ostracized and treated differently and not allowed to play with the LDS kids. There was a real fear that was taught from the pulpit to stay away from polygamist families. That is actually one of the reasons why in the temple recommend interview they asked if you have been affiliating with any outside groups, or it is about polygamous. They really lost a lot of people to polygamy. I actually have a really interesting story. So I grew up on the same street my whole life. My mom lived there for 50 years. She raised all of her kids there. And so everyone on the street knew that we were polygamist kids and they were not allowed to play with us. We would did go to public school, but I didn't have any LDS friends that lived on the same street with me because they weren't allowed to play with us. And a new family moved in and it was a family of girls. It was like six girls, and they didn't know that we were polygamous yet and it was so exciting. So we played with them all summer, my sister and I did. And by the end of the summer, they kind of weren't around anymore. So I walked over to their house and asked if my friend Faline could play and her mom came outside and said we're not allowing the kids to play with you anymore. You come you guys are polygamists, and that's just not okay. And so don't come back. And that was the theme of our childhood. We had rocks thrown at us. We got yelled at that family, that specific family. The dad's name was Joseph Smith. And he Yeah, it was so interesting. Yeah, he became the stake president. When my mom eventually divorced my dad and decided to mean to join the mainstream LDS church. He became the stake president in that same area, and I was able to talk to him about See what had happened as a child when I was a child? And I said, you know, you wouldn't. He asked my mom a question. He said, I hope you enjoyed living in our neighborhood. And she said, Well, I, I've never minded it. It's been fine for me. But my kids have had a hard time. And he goes, Oh, that's, well, that's too bad. Why? And that's when I jumped in. And I said, Well, it was actually your kids that weren't very nice to us. And you wouldn't let them play with us because we were polygamist. And he goes, Yeah, that checks out. That makes sense. And I definitely wouldn't let my kids play with a polygamist kids. So that makes sense. He had no regrets. And really, that was a theme throughout my childhood is if people found out about my childhood, and where it came from. There were lots of things that could happen. One of them being I would lose a friend, but the other one being that I could lose my family. There was raids in the 1950s to put in jail polygamous men, my grandpa rule and actually got put in jail. So there was a real fear that was passed down to us that we needed to keep it secret. And along the Mormonism theme, sacred is secret. So then it's like living polygamy. We're living the higher law. It's sacred. It's secret. We don't tell people so it's this dichotomy where we lived in the world but not of the world, just like times 10, because they're taught that in the mainstream LDS church, yeah. But it's even more exponential growing up the way I grew up. Wow, did you grew up in Utah? I did. So I grew up in West Jordan. UB has, they're everywhere. When I first married my husband, I used to joke with him because I would see my aunts and my cousins and people that I grew up with all at the movie theater at the grocery store. And I'd be like, that's from the ARB. That's from two and they just look normal. So they live amongst us in Utah that you you think you would recognize a polygamist but you don't. I have brothers that are doctors and dentists. So they're, they're all over I grew up in West Jordan, they're their main churches in Bluffdale. But there's kind of a large group in Eagle Mountain, in Santa Quinn. There's Montana, Mexico, Wyoming. There's there's places all over it that have the same beliefs. But that's just specifically apostolic, United Brethren, we're not touching into any of the independent polygamists that don't really have a huge following. We're not talking about the Church of Christ, we're not talking about I mean, there's so many different branches, and sects that people don't realize that it's really saturated, and they're just unaware. Hmm. Really interesting. And I, it is, it is fascinating to kind of dive into these pieces, where I don't I mean, I grew up in Utah, and I knew about the polygamous, but we never really talked about it, at least not in the area that I grew up in, because it wasn't really in our faces, I guess. And, but it was always kind of that, oh, they have the old. You know, that's that's not how we practice. That's the old mentality. That's not whatever, right. And then, of course, when you have the laws that come in that say, you can't have more than one wife, and then now it's the actual you're committing a, you know, there, you can be put in jail for this. It's interesting, the unwinding of it, and then at the core of it, the fact that you were shunned as a child like that, that makes me sad, then I wonder if I would have behaved that way. If I was the same of, you know, her, and I don't know, I may have when I, when you're in a religion, you're so narrow, like that narrow mindedness is so focused on the path of eternal salvation. And anything that comes into it is there is so much fear, which is super ironic, because that's not unconditional love. That's not how Christ was. That's not you know, how how God is. So it is, it is super interesting. I'm curious with the doctrine, because there is such a deep seated belief in the patriarchy and you know, having the priesthood if that if they had the same beliefs as Mormons with the priesthood, and that's why men were the ones that had multiple wives, and what the mentality was there to that that was the everlasting, what did you call the everlasting covenant to actually get into the celestial kingdom? Can you share a little bit of what your knowledge is with that? Yeah, it's definitely patriarchy. And it really has to do with the temple covenants. And I mean, it's section 132. I think oftentimes, when mainstream LDS people learn about section 132 They like to go well, it's about temple covenants. It's about that's how you have your celestial marriage. That's an it's it's part of it, but but really 132 had to do with Joseph Smith justifying taking on more than one wife. And that that is what's going to bring him into the celestial kingdom. I mean, if you really dive into the early history, historical documents, historical information about early church, the main if you're getting all of your information from mainstream LDS, they are covering those things up because it's, it's an embarrassment. And they want to say that that was just a small section. I mean, how many? If you think back, did you even know that Joseph Smith had multiple wives until probably the last 10 years? Like I always knew that? Yeah, but it was something that wasn't really talked about. No, it wasn't. And when I got married, my husband didn't know that they're not teaching that in Sunday school and mainstream LDS. But it, it follows right along the lines of patriarchy and the priesthood, and that the more wives you have, the higher and, and they're in, in their frame, the woman is helping the man get to the celestial kingdom, and they have to do it together. But really, it's the man that holds all the power. I mean, they teach that priesthood power binds what is in heaven here on earth, or what's here on Earth in heaven. So you really have the power of God, here on Earth, that's what the priesthood power is. So if they're sealing you with the priesthood power here, then that's going to transfer up into heaven and you're being sealed up in heaven. If you don't have a priesthood power, then you can get married here. But that doesn't mean you're going to be married in the heavens, that's kind of the one of the selling points of the LDS Church is the that if if you get married here in our church, then you'll be guaranteed to be married and heaven, you get to your family forever. So, but that comes through the male line that comes through the patriarchy. And women are especially now not able to do that, and not really having those those privileges those priesthood powers, and it's very much delve into patriarchy when I was very young. I did ask my mom and dad, I mean, I remember sitting at the kitchen table and asking, well, if, if Dad can have lots of wives and I can have lots of husbands, right. And that was obviously very shut down very quickly. Because it only goes one way paid. priesthood only goes one way. And you could say, could come from like the culture of the 1800s. I think that definitely put people in, in why it turned out the way it did. I mean, women for so long, have been suppressed and taken advantage of and really been identified as less than a full human like, yes, you're human, but not like you. You really can't have all the roles and responsibilities. I'll do that for you. You're here to help me. Yeah, it will. Yeah. And it's like, it's a big burden. But somebody's got to do it. Well, and I can't be used so so I'll make sure I do it. I mean, I think I think it absolutely has to do with patriarchy, and priesthood. And that's just was definitely more well defined. When Brigham Young took whoever would follow into a territory that didn't have a lot of white settlers. Of course, it was inhabited, but it didn't have a lot of white settlers. So he kind of got to curate the rules and the context and how people worked and functioned. So that worked out really well for him and for the LDS church to have kind of no one else around to make the rules or have any pushback. So I think that's my thoughts on patriarchy. I think it's been around for so long, that Mormon really fed into it and really gleaned from it. I would agree. I'm just like, I'm on the tail end of a cold so you can see I keep clearing my throat I apologize. It's like still just the last little end of this brutal cold that is going around that everybody's had. Yeah, no problem. I there I find this so fascinating, right, just this the way that that you can take truth. You know, whatever the filters were, that truth came through some man that had all this revelation that that then has gotten filtered through however many outs that have come in as prophets and seers and regulators and you know, just created all these different sects and cultures and and it's just it is really it's, it's quite fascinating. So I'm curious as you were growing up within the a UB what made you want to go be in the mainstream Mormonism? That's a Really good question. It's kind of even even now, as someone who's really taken a lot of time to think about it, because leaving your religion is very jarring and can be very hard. And I know that I spent a lot of time thinking about it, it was a very conscious decision. And when I was in mainstream LDS, so from ages 18 on until a few years ago, I would I would describe it as I was already questioning it a little bit. So I had been sitting in a Sunday meeting in my polygamous church, and my uncle was the prophet at the time. And he said over the pulpit, what makes our break off of the church, the correct break off, and I remember kind of like stopping for a minute, because of course, I was a good polygamous child play kid. And I was writing down everything you said, because this was the leader speaking, the prophet speaking. And I remember stopping my pencil and being like, wait a minute, what you just call this a break off. So like, we're not the one true church like we're a break off. And there's multiple break offs. And that was a thought stop for me. Yeah, that's really what made me go, Wait a minute, you just, I thought we were like, the one true church, like I thought we had the truth, like I had been taught that I was not only Mormon, I was like a better Mormon than like other Mormons, because we were living this great way. So I wrote it down. And then my sister who had decided to already join the church, she found it and asked me about it. She said, Hey, I saw that you wrote down here that you don't know if this is, you're confused about it being a break off. And I just want to share my testimony to you that I know that this The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the true Church and that all these I mean, she, she bore her testimony to me. And I described it if I could put it in the context of when I was in mainstream LDS as like a light switch flipping on. And all of a sudden, I could see the room. And I could see all of this potential, I could see all these things that weren't there before. Now, looking back on it, I think it gave me a sense of community, a sense of, I don't like secrecy. I don't like shame. I think it's just something from like the core of who I am. And knowing that if I joined the mainstream LDS church, I no longer had to live in secrecy. I didn't have to hide who I was, I wouldn't be accepted. In the mainstream community, I would be accepted out in the world. And my children wouldn't have to go through my potential children wouldn't have to go through the authorization, the demoralization, the embarrassment, what I went through, it was like a way to finally be out and open and and have no secrecy. And that's kind of why I think I drew to the mainstream LDS church, and it was hard it wasn't. My dad was very disappointed. He told me I was choosing the lesser light. He had me read all the books about polygamy. He was very disappointed in me, he would come over every Sunday. So just really fast background, I had five moms. And so we all had five different houses. So he would come over every fifth day, to spend the night. But he after I decided to join mainstream LDS, finally came over every single Sunday, just so he could preach to me about how I was choosing the lesser light and the lesser gospel, and that I was so privileged to be born in the time and the place and in the family that I was born in, like, I must have been like, elect and who doesn't love to hear that they're special and alive. God loves them the most and all the things. So he was very disappointed and sad. My mom, at this point, I'm nine of 10, was distant. I'd say disenchanted with polygamy. I think that she was kind of wearing thin. So she was okay with me joining the LDS church, like she wouldn't go outright and say it but she was okay with it. So I just I kind of had to ostracize my dad. And that was hard. But the inner compass where my where it was telling me to go was unmistakable. And I kept checking in with myself, like, Are you sure this is going to change your family dynamic, this is going to change who you're going to marry. This is going to change who you interact with. This is going to change. I knew at that moment that I was changing the trajectory of my life. I knew that at 16 and I kept checking, am I okay with that? Is this where I want to go? And I knew that it was. So I had an amazing group. have friends in high school I think that really helped. I had learned from elementary to lie about being LDS I just started lying and telling everyone I was LDS because then I finally got to talk about scriptures and Book of Mormon things and, and I had all the Mormon language I had all the Mormon culture. And so if I would lie, then I could just live and have friends that I had similarities with. Yeah, so by then everyone thought I was already Mormon. Anyway, so I already have LDS friends I just this huge group of friends and they were amazing and kind and I knew that they would support me if I chose to get baptized. And so I really had this huge sense of community that I really thrived in. A lot of love was happening in that group of friends that made it very easy for me to be able to join the church in that aspect. So that's why I decided to leave and join the LDS church and I never looked back like I never once regretted my decision from leaving polygamy into the mainstream LDS church. Hmm. So you said you were nine of 10. So you had 10 siblings from the same mom and dad, but then how many step step siblings did you have? half siblings are 36 Yeah, so there's, there's a lot of they were kind of more my cousins. We didn't really live like the F LDS do where a lot of the wives are in the same homes. We live. Like, my mom's were kind of more my aunts. And we would go and spend holidays with them. We'd see them every Sunday, when we went to church, I would have sleepovers at their house with my siblings, and I loved it. I thought it was great. I loved that. I had another mom at another house. I loved that. I got to see my dad when he was spending the night at their house. So I thought it was great. I loved all the siblings. I loved a big family. I loved my mom's I loved having my dad around. It was just this huge sense of love that I had. That's beautiful. So you were Mormon for how many years? 1415 or so baptized at 18? Are you talking about mainstream? Watch, I did 18. And then I left at probably 3536. So what was that transition? Like? It was very, very, very, very difficult. i My husband will say that I probably cried every day for probably two years. Wow. It was a great sense of betrayal that I had felt. So it's a it's a weird thing because I was quite happy. Being mainstream LDS. I married a wonderful person. And we had a wonderful life. I was able to have all the kids I wanted. We never had any fertility problems. I fit quite well into my ward. I was friendly, outgoing. I worked really hard on all of my callings. I was in the women's in the primary in the nursery, I was released to society, President 29 like I was in. And I had no reason to question or want to be out. There wasn't. And so the best way the simplest way for me to describe it is my dad became the leader of the AU be in 2014. And so I guess that's when it happened was 2014 He became the leader and I didn't care because it's not my profits. I later it was just a really crappy dad growing up, and just very disengaged, and just not very friendly and whatever. I didn't care. So when he became Prophet, that was fine. But one of my older siblings, older sisters came to me and she said, she was actually no longer in the AAUP either. She's completely out nonreligious. But she said, I'm having these like really weird flashbacks of a temple ceremony that I was involved in when I was eight. And she said, I remember wearing a white dress and walking into a room with a bunch of other little girls, and there was very inappropriate sexual acts being done. And I and she said, and I think Dad was there. And I and I just was like, I would never discount what she went through. That she was having, like very weird flashbacks. And she couldn't remember all of it, but she definitely remembered it and having my dad become Prophet really had triggered that for her. And knowing the trauma that she had gone through knowing that she is she would never lie about something like that. Yeah, it really made me stop and think about trying to put my dad in a leadership position and take advantage of the power that he had. And it really drew a through line for me, from my dad to my grandpa rule and to Brigham Young to Joseph Smith, and I started seeing this consistent pattern of men abusing their powers, and taking advantage of the people around them. And I couldn't deny any longer that my dad is not any better than Joseph Smith. And, and I, it really jarred me, and I couldn't go to the temple anymore. And the temple used to give me such comfort and calm. So I was in the stake primary at the time. And so I knew this the State President pretty well. And I could tell that I was starting to every time I saw the temple or heard about the temple, I would start getting this really visceral reaction. Just very upset over what my sister had gone through. And so I went to him. I had been crying for weeks. And I went to him with my husband. And, of course, because he's the priesthood holder, and I said, I, I've had this incident happened that my sister told me about, it's making it really hard for me to want to go to the temple I and I'm crying at him. And he turns to my husband, and he said, you know, what should we do? And my husband was like, that's why we're here. Because you're the, like, you have dominion over like the steak, like, that's why we're coming to talk to you. And he goes, Well, you should probably just go to the temple and sit in the parking lot until you feel better about it. And that was another thought stop. I thought, wow. That's, that's what your advice is. So you so you're the, that's okay. So I thought, You know what, I'm going to have to figure this out on my own. I'm going to have to figure out how to get over this on my own because this man who claims to know, to get revelation for his stake clearly does not have revelation for me. Yeah. So I went home and I really just did a big deep dive, I did a big deep dive on Joseph Smith on church history on all of these different assets, aspects of Mormonism. And then I saw all the problems that were there before that I was just unable to see before. But really, the three line was watching these charismatic, so fun, so great men take advantage of their power over people. And and of course, there's, there's all the other things, LGBTQ eye issues, racism, you know, obviously, the Doctrine and things that I have an issue with, but really, the main thing was the really the like the string that pulled the sweater, was my dad becoming the Prophet of the ARB that really had nothing to do with me in 2014. So did the ARB have temples like were the temple rituals really similar to you know, they're they're similar like the 1800s. So like, when you go in and you're getting your garments, your endowments, well, not your not your covenants, but just your garments, you have to go through like a washing and anointing, right? So they were very much old school where the Washington anointing you're naked, and you're in a bathtub, and there are some older women touching all over your areas. anoint you. So that was in the temple covenants. They still include the punishments that go along with it. So it's it's very much old school organism. But the funny thing is when my grandpa Rulon was in charge of the A, UB, there was no temple to be had. So what the teaching was at the time was you go join the mainstream LDS church, become a member, however you need to do it. Go get your temple covenants, get your garments, come back and live polygamy. And interesting, I think a lot and that's actually why the mainstream LDS church really buckled down in the 1980s Because I'm sure a lot of that had to do with my grandpa telling no idea about that, how fascinating and fake it. And then my grandpa had given a prophecy that before I think it was before my aunt Beth, it's just a woman in in our polygamist community before she dies, that she will be able to get the temple covenants without going through the mainstream. During the LDS church, well, my grandma gets murdered. She's getting older, she's about to die. And they're like, there's this prophecy crap, we got to do something about it. And they went in and they took the temple covenants and opened their own endowment house. And so there is an endowment house now that they go through and do their own garments, their own temple come in and sit on Washington anointing their own ceilings, but that wasn't how it originated, it was that we were supposed to be in tandem. Really, it is that a UB polygamists keeps keep polygamy alive. And then the church does everything else, the missionaries, the temple, all those other things, that's a whole Church's responsibility. And then they're supposed to live polygamy. So it's changed. I mean, even they even polygamy has changed so much to kind of accommodate where the church has dropped stuff off, where the church has no longer practice, or what the rules of the church are aware of, they make it really difficult for polygamous people to join the church. So they do know, at one point, wow, and what an interesting thing to have happened to allow you to start questioning that event with your sister, which, especially with the client work that I do in the circles that I walk in, there are a lot of people who have memories, similar to little girls having trauma with older men, and the different rituals that take place. And, you know, when you I'm like trying to decide if I want to touch on this or not, I from what I understand. And the belief that I hold is that at some point, in this earth, there was a belief, especially with women, that they carry certain aspects with them that can be taken and received for themselves through sexual acts. And the reality is, is sex is a sacred act. It's a very sacred act. And it has been tainted with a lot of different practices and a lot of different religions that try to control how sex is done. And so it's interesting, I feel how, like, any truth that we're talking about, it's, it's been taken and twisted just a little bit, for whatever reason for manipulation for power, or for whatever it is. And this is one of those pieces that I think has. I mean, it has been around for a long time, sadly, and I believe still around in a lot of different religions. And anyway, I just My heart goes out to you and your sister, like, I'm sure that had to be a hard thing for her to reconcile and probably beautiful as well, to have that memory come up and move through that process. It's it's she, she has expressed to me that she feels bad that, that it has changed my life so much. And I tell her often how grateful I am I, I am so grateful that not only am I able to see more clearly, but that I'm able to change my children's lives in a better way. Also, it's been if you want to put in, in Mormon context, a true blessing in my life, that she felt like she shared that with me and that I could change my children's lives and my life, too. So I am so grateful that she talked to me about it. Absolutely. And I feel like this imbalance of I hate to use the word power, but that's the only word that's coming through this imbalance of power between the masculine and the feminine is coming more into balance. And just like with your experience with your, what you're sharing what your sister is sharing of that recognition, and then making a different choice of, hey, this isn't okay. And I'm not choosing to be a part of a religion that secretly condones this. And yeah, I don't know if that one. That one's a. That one's a tough one. It's a tough one. Yeah. So since you have stepped out of the Mormon religion, how, how has your life been since Do you have a connection to spirituality? Like, what? What is how long is how long has it been now since that you've stepped out? It's been about well, so 2014 What is that eight years now? So it's been about eight years, I'd have to say. I don't know if I've ever necessarily lost my spirituality. I just dropped all the construct and predetermined definitions of what it was. And so that's been the journey that I've constantly been on is deciding whether other people's definitions of what spirituality is fits with me. And, and whether I'm okay with that. And I feel and I've always felt it's a responsive ability for me as a mother to teach my children those same skills. And so I've really gone the extra mile to, hopefully my kids will catch on teaching to follow their inner compass and recognize when things don't feel right are when they do. And to kind of follow that and then let go of all the shame and the guilt that was never sat well with me. And definitely since I've been outside of the church, have seen the damage that shame and guilt and secrecy does to society, to a family to me, to my children. So that's something that I actively try to help my children recognize, and then not let that be in control. So name it detainment, talk about what's hard, we have hard conversations all the time. I think that that has been beautiful for me and for my family. There's no topic that's, that is off that we can't talk about, there's nothing that I'm not going to touch on because it can make me uncomfortable or them uncomfortable. And I think that's been beautiful and very fulfilling in our lives. And in our family life. Families. Life is just being able to talk about whatever is presented in front of us and being aware, being present and being willing to explore and sit with it, sit with the emotion, sit with the experience, and be present and in it. And then I have felt like living has helped me live a life with no regrets. One of the biggest life changing things that I hit me right at the right time in my life was the secular Buddhist podcast was no Russia, he had this I ate it up. Because he's in a mixed faith marriage, I was worried I was going to be in mixed faith marriage because I didn't know where my husband stood. And now I'm ruining our celestial family. Now, it's like, my kids are gonna look at me differently. They're not going to think I'm this wonderful mom, that my husband could divorce me I could lose all of my family. Yeah. And he really helped me navigate. And there's a story that I love, that he talks about, you know, a Buddhist monk coming across a river, and he built himself a raft and made it across the river. And then he was trying to decide should he carry this raft, now that he has mountains to pass, or should he let it go. And that's really how I've taught my life is or thought of my life is I'm grateful for where I was when I was I don't regret being Mormon, I don't regret growing up polygamist. I don't regret the kids I had, or the choices I made with husband I married or where I'm at, because I did the best I could with the information I had at the time. And I want that for my children, I want them to not have this like guilt and worry and shame that they made the wrong choice, they did that. And if you're present, and if you're aware, and if you're in the situation, then you can have that too. Just this constant, like I did the best I could with the information I had now and be okay. And then giving yourself grace in that space. I just had a conversation with someone this morning about that self forgiveness piece, and how when we carry guilt from the past that shapes our future, and how important it is. And it hit me on a deeper level of where are the places within me of choices that I've made in my life that have created, you know, repercussions, especially when we have children, right the things that we choose as parents, we do our best. And there's things that affect our kids and affect our circles and where have I not given myself grace and that forgiveness of I was just doing the best with with what I had. And I think that's something for all of us to really sit with and kind of take inventory of are the places I'm still carrying guilt for the choices that I've made or for the choices that I did make especially when you step outside of religion we usually often carry like that anger that disgust or that how could I have chosen that? And it's like well of course you chose that was really beautiful for a time and now you're choosing something else and and I love all the pieces that you're sharing because this ability that we have now to teach our children to ask the questions. What did you say if it's uncomfortable? What are what would what was that little phrase like? You speak it? What was it that you said that you do with your kids? Um, just follow their inner compass and you said something else with like, if you something if you feel it, speak it or that something was a discomfort I didn't write it down. It was this comfort sit in the situation sit at the emotion Yeah. And be present in it. I don't remember what I said. I don't remember either. I'll have to go back and I'll put it in the show notes. But yeah, I loved what I loved with you You said and I love that you're having that open communication. And usually towards the end of my podcast, I'd actually I wish we had like another hour to just dive into some of this because it's so fun to chat with you as far as your your knowledge and experience that you've had, because they find it really interesting. But one of the things that I asked most podcast guests is what would you recommend? What advice what one thing would you leave to anyone that's listening that may be choosing out of any religion that is struggling? You know, you spoke for two years, you had tears almost every day, and you had emotions that you even you were even sharing that and that was a really hard chapter for you and for so many that stepped out of religion. So what is that one piece of advice that you would love to offer? That it's okay to be scared? Yeah, I think religion gives us a sense of comfort and joy in that comfort and living within the box that the religion has created, but to remember that the religion has also created the sickness that you wouldn't need their salvation if you didn't have their religion. And, and that it's okay to be scared. And this new feeling of uncomfortableness is okay, and you will get to the other side. And you will figure it out. It's it's that it's like what if I'm always going to sit in this scared, worried place? And you won't, but you don't know that sitting in it? You don't you just can't see it. And so it's it's beautiful, and it's so fulfilling on the other side? Mm hmm. I would agree with that. Oh, beautiful. Is there anything else you feel like you would love to share? No, not at this time, just thank you so much for this opportunity. It's been wonderful talking to you. Thank you. It's like I said, I wish I had another hour. But I'm being cautious at both of our times, because I know we have a few things coming up. But I would love to sit with a with you with another an hour because one of the pieces is coming through. And I mentioned this to you before we even started recording. There's a sacred feminine piece that taps in with all religion that has been suppressed for so long, and it's not. Anyway, I guess I'm just going to leave it there, you and I are going to have a little conversation after this. But just to the listeners, the the women that have felt suppressed, you know, when we're talking about there was a reason for decisions that we've all made at certain times in our life, it's the same thing with the patriarchy and the men that did create and start this religion for whatever reasons they were doing. Really, they're probably doing the best with what they had at the time, even if it looks and feels and whatever it is, we have judgment around it. And now we all get to make a different choice. And we get to activate parts of us that have been suppressed for a long, long time. And that is exciting to me. And that is also not at the detriment of men. It's just bringing more balance into both the masculine and the feminine. There's room at the table for both. And that's what I think oftentimes some men can forget is that there's there's room enough for all of us. There's there's enough room, it's okay to share the space. Yeah, absolutely. Well, beautiful. Well, thanks again, Liz. I so I really, really enjoyed this, and I appreciate your time. Yes, thanks again, I really, I really enjoyed it. Wasn't that a powerful and really interesting and insightful interview, I really appreciate it a lot of the things that she shared and a lot of pieces of the wisdom that she gained, and just how she's assisting her kids and having a different experience. If you again are looking to really lean in more to your genius have tools to support you, and network of people that are like minded, I invite you to step into my mastermind group that started November 27, head to my website, Amanda loveland.com, forward slash elevated mastermind to join today. And remember, my friends, you are not alone. We are all in this together. And the more we lean into our genius and awaken to who we are and who we've always been, we will allow for remembrance to happen and an unlocking of these pieces within us that we didn't even know. And then life gets to be full of the question of what is possible instead of what are these things happening to me as much as possible. What do I get to create what do you want to create? So with all of that sending you all so much live if you feel the call to be when I'm a guest on my podcast, had to might either message me on my social media pages or head to my website, go to the podcast tab and you'll see where to apply to be a guest sending you off so much love and have a beautiful day.