Keri Rivera. She never knew that doubting was an option.

Her unraveling was started because of the massive amounts of good in the world. Yes, you. heard that right! 

My latest guest was SO fun to chat with! I found myself captivated by her story as it is truly unique and beautiful! 

Being raised by parents who literally felt that God told them to marry, doubting was never an option for her as she was a bi-product of a god ordained marriage. She was special and mormonism was a part of that sacredness. 

As she has different events occur, as Keri comments it was the goodness in the world that started it, her belief system started to unravel. Get this, as she decided to leave Mormonism her husband decided to join! So, after she left he got baptized. How unique is this?

Keri shares that once she became more honest with herself, doors starting opening. "struggle is evidence that something needs attention"

Are you feeling the call to come to my retreat? There are 6 spots left!  Snag your spot at: https://www.amandajoyloveland.com/unbind

If you are ready to shift your life and are wanting to work one on one with me, I have one spot available. Email me at aj@amandajoyco.com so that we can schedule a call to see if my three month program is a fit for you. 

Let's stay in touch!

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:01

Hello, hello and welcome to my podcast leaving religion and those we leave behind. I am your host, Amanda Joy Loveland. And as always, I am thrilled to be here with you, especially today, this guest was so much fun. I really, really enjoyed interviewing my next guest. And it was fun because I never, you know, a lot of my guests lately, I don't know their story at all. So it's, oh, it's just so much fun. It's like having a conversation and getting to know a new friend. So before I dive into that, I've got seven spots left for my retreat, my unwind and unbind retreat that is coming up March 17 through 20th, down in Springdale, Utah. And this is a place that I have held all my retreats at so far, because I absolutely adore Zions and the energy that is already there with the red rocks that are surrounding the home that we have the retreat at is, oh my gosh, just that alone, you just spending time in this house and being surrounded by the Red Rocks is just healing and nourishing alone, let alone the fact that we're going to have my absolutely beautiful friend Valerie and giving massages. And also meals being provided breakfast, lunch and dinner. And we'll also be having every day we have different x experiential lectures type style. I don't even know how to explain it. But the way that I teach is very much through somatics meaning Yes, we talk Yes, we have discussions. Yes, we work through things. But there's a lived experience. There is when we feel things in the body. And we actually get to find our own answers. That's when true healing happens. There'll be shamanic principles that are that are utilized, as well as NLP techniques and so many other things. So if you're feeling the call to do this, you need to snag your spot sooner than later. But link is in the bio or head over to my website, Amanda joy loveland.com forward slash unbind. This is an all women's retreat on this one. Sorry, guys, it felt like this one got to be all women. So and also I have if you haven't taken my relationship course, or my mini one yet, or the quiz, if you go through the quiz, you will get the free course. And I have actually incredibly stunning relationship course that launches on the second of February that I can't wait to share with you all. And without further ado, let's launch into my next interview with this beautiful guest. Well, good morning, Carrie. I'm so I'm so thrilled to be sitting with you and getting to meet you and get to know you and get to know your story. So thank you. Thank you very happy to be here. Today. I'm sitting down with Carrie Rivera, correct? Yes. And you live in in Texas? Mm hmm. Yep. Recent move to Texas, but loving it here. from Arizona. Correct. So awesome. And I this is one of the things that I love. I have a love hate relationship with social media, right? Because, you know, there's some negative things, but there's some really cool positive things. For example, this I get to connect with someone I've never met before. And you are sharing your story. And you're in Texas, and we get to do this over zoom and have some really beautiful experiences. So again, thank you, thank you for saying yes. And for stepping into this my site. I know none of your story, which I love to get to just have a conversation and share with you know, the things that that you've gone through. And I so you were one of the ones when I had put a ask into one of the Facebook groups that we're both a part of, it's an isn't it empowered former LDS was a group called empowered former LDS group. So for anybody listening, I'll cite that down the shownotes. That's a great, very supportive, not super bashing group. Yeah. And I, you know, I think what's interesting is, you know, you mentioned kind of the pros and cons of social media. And I think you get out of it, what you bring into it. So you have to be really intentional about where you're going to focus what you're going to put your attention on. And that's one of the things in the group. I'm an admin in the group. Oh, you are? I didn't know that. You say that? I think I did. I think now I'm remembering sweet well, and it's kind of interesting how that lined up with my story and what that means to the point where I feel like okay, it's time to tell this a little more publicly, because I've been in that group with with Wendy for many, many years. We met through another like post Mormon group before she started her own. And it was really interesting about about a year and a half ago, the group had this kind of explosion through it was it was the hashtag like give thanks thing. And when he posts it went viral and all of a sudden overnight, we sprung up from like, to 300 people for years and years and years up to 1200, then to 2000. And it's just grown. So windy reached out to me at this point of, oh, the group is growing. And I need help keeping eyes on things to make sure that we keep it a positive and empowering space. And it happened to coincide with a big faith challenge I was having. So it was the great opportunity to step up and be able to use my experience to help other people. And in doing that, I found myself staying more centered in my experience. So it's, it's a positive Win Win anytime you get it out there. And it's not like I'm coming at this because I want to help people. Help grows, love grows, all those things just get bigger. Yeah. Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up. Because I think when we first connected, I noticed you were an admin, but I, I completely spaced it. So I am, I'm glad you brought that up. And it is the last I just had an interview yesterday, and that we connected through the Facebook group too. And I I kind of kicked myself later that I didn't mention the group because there are so many people that feel alone. So that's why I love doing this podcast. But it's a great resource to have for anybody who's looking just for a community of hey, I'm really struggling and just that support group. It's a beautiful Facebook group that Wendy has started. So hey, yeah, well, good. I'm glad we talked about that. Yeah. Oh, so tell me your your story. What what did make you say? Yes, like, I It's time for me to share my story. Yeah, so my journey has been taking place over I think it's like 14 years now. So kind of on that, like, further end of the spectrum, I'm through the the initial shock of it through the unwinding. And honestly, I thought I was pretty much done with it. But then, two years ago, actually, it was January 2020, you know, the before times, right before everything went nuts. That the before time more time, and then hopefully, we'll have that after. You know, I think it's gonna be the different time. Because there's just so much stuff that says changed up and shaken up from from that thing, and Who knew Who knew what was gonna happen in January of 2020. So innocently, I went to a, again, I've been out of the church, probably for you to 10 years at that point in time. And I went to a, like a cleansing yoga event with some of my girlfriends back in Phoenix, and we get to the event and we have like crystals, and we're meditating. And the crystal I chose to meditate on has these axes right here. Hold on, it's cool. has these has these two points on it? Oh, yeah, that's correct. Yep. And I subtle chords. I've never really done anything like that before. But I'm like, sure what flow with it, we'll see what's happening. And, and during the, the meditation, I wasn't expecting this. But I looked at it, I thought this crystal is it's how I see myself. And we had a bunch to choose from, and this one had, like, called to me, and it's like, I feel like, in my life, there's everything that happened before I left the church. And then there's the means that happened after. And maybe it was a defense mechanism. Maybe it was a trauma response, maybe it was any number of things that I put a hard line in my life, from pre and post. And in January of 2020, I thought, you know, what I really want to work on coming together and being whole and seeing myself as a whole person. And, you know, getting to reclaim the things about myself that I really, really liked in that. But doing it for me and not for other things. So I set this intention in January, and then the world exploded. Everything So you started this is that what you're trying to tell me? Not exclusively, but there were probably more bees out there. Let's be real. This is 100% 100%. But you know, the whole world changes and everything kind of shifts and the kids come home and I'm having a really hard time working from home full time, we have three children that we adopted so, so a little bit busy. But also, it's been interesting in the process of adopting learning more about trauma and how to help people heal from trauma and how to leverage your own experiences to help people. And you know, all this happens. I got depressed by like June of 2020 Because I'm a social person, and all of a sudden I cut off all of my social people interactions. And you know, you force an extrovert to go inside and it's not always the most comfortable thing. So I actually ended up like doing some like antidepressants and things to try to help bridge the gap. And right as I'm stabilizing, my dear husband who is was never a member, the church had gone to work at a really cool garage. And the owner of the garage was he was a cool Mormon. He was One of the neat, progressive, kind, approachable, lives and just such a great person, guy. And then in August, they ended up doing a road trip, and we're in a car for 24 hours. And my husband became interested in the church. Wow, was and that's what coincided with Wendy's group exploding. And so I'm like, okay, all these things that I thought I had handled and processed and dealt with. And we're so far in the past. Oh, it turns out, I still have some work to do on some things, and figuring out how to, to keep those relationships. So yeah, 2020 was an interesting year. For a bunch of reasons. But you know, what's happened, though, like, in the course of that time. Um, I feel like, it's given me an opportunity to put into practice things that I was theoretical about, or maybe had talked to other people about, but pushing myself to embrace and be love, and focus on relationships, over pain and triggers and hurt. Because in the early part of this journey, there was a lot of pain. And there were a lot of triggers. And essentially, what was coming up for me was, I felt like, my husband was choosing this church in this religion over me and my relationship and my feelings. I kept comparing it to like, what if I tried to go and date your ex? Like, how would you feel? And he's like, it's not the same thing. And I was like, You're right, cuz I did worse. You know, there was a lot, there was a lot of, Oh, sounds like there's a lot but, you know, we pushed through it. And it gave me an opportunity to push through it and trust in, in his love for me, and, and go back into my own worthiness and say, You know what? Yeah, this is it's a lot. And yet, at the same time, I could see what was appealing for him, I could see the community, the support, the clear guidelines, all of these, like, structural pieces that were something to me. And I was like, you know, I've never been one to say like, oh, absolute no, never couldn't bla bla, bla, bla, bla, I, you know, like, I have a standing joke with one of my female best friends who's still a member, I was like, hey, if the day comes, you can baptize me. I'll go, like, just because all the things that would have to change for that to happen, like, Okay, sure. But you know, in the meantime, it's just, it was a lot, but, um, come January of 2021, my parents happened to be coming by for a visit. And my husband had set a baptismal date a couple of times, and kind of postponed and postponed it. And then my dad's coming through, and I look at him, and I'm like, Okay, if you want my dad to baptize you, that would be a good, a good day. And it actually turned into kind of a healing moment for our families. So yeah, so your husband did get baptized. He did. And he's on his own journey with it. And you know, figuring things out on his own. I've had to learn in very real ways to separate my thoughts and feelings about things from the way he's experiencing things. But yeah, but yeah, I mean, ultimately, it's, it gave me a chance to kind of like, go back into some spaces and to see things with new eyes, like the eyes of a mother and say, I know how I was raised in this. I know how I handled this. Is this, like, first of all, is it still that way? And then secondly, is this something that I would knowingly involuntarily introduced to my children? So one of the things we came to early on was, I was like, Listen, I don't want to get the kids involved, until you're more certain about what it is and what you want it to look like in your life. And then we can work on if that's going to happen. So but a very interesting process to go through, like, thinking about, you know, and, and maybe that leads into like, my story. So what is it? Oh, this is a beautiful part of your story. Holy cow, I can imagine. I mean, see stories like this to me as I am witnessing it. It's like, the Universe works in such magical, beautiful, frustrating ways sometimes. And, and yet, it sounds like some really amazing growth that you had through all of those experiences, even though not fun, right? I like that. I'm gonna write that down. Like what is amazing, magical, beautiful, frustrating, right? It's like, and it's all that paradoxical. You know, here's the paradox. You're slipping out and now your husband's like, What in the hell? Yeah, it's been really I will tell you it has been really fun to like, I've gotten to a point where I'm playing with it now. So we'll invite missionaries over for you know, different things. We actually had them over on Christmas. mistake is no one had signed up for it, we're like, bring them over, I'll make a care package, we made our rules, you know, like, did all the things and so these these sweet little be sweet little tender young men come into the house. And you know they're talking to their new because they change over all the time and you know they're talking to my husband and they're like, so sister Rivera, you've been a member your whole life and I was like well, actually I'm an x. And then to share that with them like just from a plain factual standpoint and let them let them have an experience with someone who left the church and is not evil. Right. And can still support that. Yeah, for sure. Exactly. I love that. So were you born and raised in the Mormon religion then? Yes, I was. I was born and raised and but not in a. So my parents were both converts. So we weren't like Mormon stock. We weren't pioneer stock. actually kinda remember being sad about that when I was a kid? Cuz you weren't the true blue. Right? Right. I wasn't I didn't have any pioneer ancestry. But my mom was from South Carolina. And she joined the church when she was eight years old. And her mom had the missionaries knocked on the door. Her mom like interviewed them. Half of the eight kids joined my Grandpa never joined. But they went to the church. And it was a good like social structure for her in South Carolina weird and different, because you know, there are Baptists down there, but and then my dad was from California. So and his interesting story is that he was 10 when some neighbors invited them over for a family home evening, and his parents believed like they're like, Yeah, this is a good church, but we just can't stop smoking and drinking. But hey, kids, if you want to join, so two of their three kids joined Oh. And so my dad's rebellious teenage years are spent doing things like getting rides to activities and biking to seminary. And then when he was 18, he baptized his parents. And at 19. They all went through the temple together, right before he left on a mission to Korea. Oh, so Maria omega? Yes. Yeah. And Korea in the 70s, which was interesting. And they like this is it? It's funny, like I thought about like, does this relate Is this my story, but in addition to all of the expectations and things that we're born with, when you're just born Mormon, there's a really strong myth to my family. I'm still like, kind of like picking apart and unpacking. So my dad goes to Korea, and the mission president decided that they needed to have more awareness of the churches name because nobody knew the church's name. So early 70s. How do you do this? You form a musical performing group like Donny and Marie or something. So they put together a boy band. Oh, my goodness in Korea, in Korea. And basically my dad is like, oh, g k pop. So sorry, slasher welcomes, depending on where you fall on that. Oh, my gosh, this is awesome. But these, these five young white missionaries from America, go in, my dad could sing and play the trumpet. And that got him a spot in the band. But they did radio. They did TV. My dad's Korean was good. So he was on a radio show every morning in downtown Seoul. And they did to record albums. And, like the whole time, it was you know, they would say, Oh, you missionaries are tall. Yes. All the missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are tall. Oh, two missionaries like kimchi? Yes. All the missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints like kimchi. So it was it was the marketing play. And it worked. Because in the three years that the group was together, it went from like, no awareness to 70% awareness. And people would invite missionaries into their home the big Oh, we saw you on TV last night come in, like, you know, there was it was a very effective tool. So how interesting. Wow. Yeah, so my dad does this and after his mission, so at the time they had a language training mission at BYU Hawaii. And so he had stopped there on his way out. And then he was invited to come back and join the show choir when he returned to BYU Hawaii. So he started school there fall of 76 he meets this girl She's really nice but she's waiting on a missionary who's coming home in December and my my dear sweet dad says Well, if he if it doesn't work out to marry this guy that I'm here like, I'd like to date you but she took it as I'm here. Well, we'll get married. Yeah, and so she goes home at Christmas. And they she doesn't doesn't work out with the missionary and she says okay, like, it's on we're getting married. And they both felt very strongly that she should move in with his parents in California and plan their June wedding. Which is convenient because mean While my mother had gone to Rick's college for two years, BYU for a year and a half, and then was spending her final semester in Hawaii, because why not? And so, and oh, I'm in Hawaii might as well join the show choir. So they met in the show choir, like showcase Hawaii at BYU Hawaii. And they became friends and they were really good friends. And my dad starts to get concerned because of course, his mission president said to marry your best friend. So he calls his mom he tried to break it off with another girl. But grandma's like, oh, no, you just got cold feet. Well, the day comes that my mom is going to fly to Provo to walk in their graduation. And their branch president comes by and is like, oh, I need to see you guys. And they're like, Okay, yeah, well, we can go talk. He's like, No, I need the keys to my office. He interviews them separately and together, to get a recommend to be sealed for time and all eternity, knowing that my dad was engaged, knowing that my mom was thinking about going on a mission after graduation. And so they go out and they're like, uh, my dad's like, well, will you marry me? And she's like, well, you know, I will. So basically, the family story is God told my parents to get married. Yeah. And, and so they obeyed. And they did that. And I am the oldest child born to this couple that God directed to get married and form an eternal family. So, you know, in addition to some of those standard beliefs and expectations, that you're born in the church, and you're fortunate to be born in the church, I'm born to the truth. Like, there was a very specific reason I knew my whole life that I was supposed to be here. There was some thing, some reason that God wanted me here in this church with this family. So when I think about, like, questioning and doubts, like I knew, like I didn't, I never even knew that doubting was an option, because it was just who I was. Yeah. Wow. What are your parents still married? Are they still Mormon? Yep, they are still married, and they are still Mormon. So and very much in the rest of my family. I have five younger brothers, and they are all still, you know, in the church. And so that's, that's, you know, step one in disentangling from the church is figuring out what, what was church and what was family, you know, and, and trying to pick those things apart. And it's a challenge, especially when they're still in. And again, you can approach it with empathy and understanding and knowing that they're in but yeah, it's, it's, it's an interesting process for sure. No, kidding. So what did start your unraveling? Um, the massive amounts of good in this world. So interesting. I just, I'm enjoying this conversation. It's so fun to listen to. But I mean, it was it was literally, you know, I think about that mindset of being raised. I can't hear you. Oh, hold on one second. If not, I don't know it was mine. All of a sudden my air pods is connected and connected. Sutton what the hell that was her. I'll make sure to edit that. Don't worry. Okay. I can see 20 minutes in I'm just gonna make a note because sometimes they're hard to find on Zoom. When I'm recording in person, I can just scream into the microphone, so I see it. This one's not so much. Okay, so disentangling what started your disentangling was there's, there's so much good in the world, the massive amounts of good in the world. Yeah. You know, and that sounds silly. But I think that while I was in, there was no amount of like evidence or negativity that could have breached the wall. But from my own experience, you know, and it has to be things that I experienced things that happened to me for me around me and then pushed in that direction. So you know, raised in the church had all the callings did all the things, went to BYU Hawaii. And when I graduated from there, that was I was the editor of the school newspaper there. So very highly involved. That was the first time I was a Relief Society president. I moved back home still trying to figure out my life because of course, I was supposed to get married there. And I failed at that. And so I had no clue. Like, at 21 What do I do? I don't know. I'm an old maid. And, yes, 21 years, so All right. But literally, like when I graduate, I graduated four days after my 21st birthday. And like, I literally thought my life was over, because I was like, what I have no plans for what to do next. And so that was a rough time and a rough here, but you know, I just ah, so I moved home and then a few years later decided that I needed to have a change of scene. So I ended up going to trial In South Carolina, which was lovely and tons of fun, and sell like a, it felt like a series on one of the old like web shows. Because there was a singles branch it was it was literally like seasons and episodes. And we realized it while we were in it were like, wow, this is really cool. But 282 will give me after seeing. We're like episode three, where you wait up late for a friend to come home from a dance and they don't come home. But then when the other friend is leaving, they accidentally run over a deer. And you have to chase them down because their cell phone died, like that kind of episodic stuff. Like, you know, it was you can't make this stuff up. I started to write it down. Once I'm like, Man, I'm not even that creative. That's funny. Wow. And it was what I wanted. It was social. And it was interactive. And I was there for six years. But over the course I was there. That was the time when I became a temple ordinance worker, because of course, the goal is still to get married. And Charleston had a nice influx of, you know, college students, and military and all these people who are coming through as always, like, I feel like I should do a blanket apology to anyone I knew in that era, like any male who was a Mormon, because yes, I sized you up to see if you could be my eternal companion. That was all. That's where I was. That was always the least that was always the goal. All the meals, I cook for you guys all the brownies. So that's why that was it. And all of you fail, but thank you for failing. So we, we go through it, we like you know, had the fun life. But it was very, like, interesting and insular. And just a lot of really strong bonds and connections that came out of that time. And the probably, I mean, definitely the greatest bond that came out of that time, was meeting my friend Amanda, who became one of my best friends and she was an adventurer and someone who I like her already. I know, she's a PA. But she, you know, was an engineering student at Clemson and lived in Charleston and came back was back and forth. And she wanted to go swim with the sharks on the Great Barrier Reef. So she signed up to do a semester in Australia, do that thing and come back and just a glorious person. And one day she was lamenting, she had a crush on this guy, and was lamenting her crush on this guy. And I was like, ah, that's really sad. He's giving you mixed signals and doesn't seem to like you back. I was like, my brother's coming home from his mission in September, you need to meet him. And she's like, okay, cool. So I introduced her to my brother on his birthday in 2006 2005. And they got married that June, the following June. And so and he was like fresh home from his mission, but I just knew I was like these two people like no, they're gonna click they're gonna connect. So he was out at BYU Hawaii, she went back with him while he finished up. And so the what I mean eventually came of that I don't know where to like to go in timeline in order of things, but Charleston ended up getting rough. Like I reached the age of 29. I had still never kissed anyone, like, as much as I pushed and tried. And I was really good at putting couples together. I was like, known as the matchmaker, I had like 20 couples that I taught temple prep to that I got off to the temple. And I had kind of a break down moment, because all of a sudden, I was 10 years older than the people who were coming up who were starting college, I had nothing in common with them, except for being single. And all of a sudden, instead of church being a place where I filled my cup up, it became a drain. And I started to wonder what else and I started to get really depressed, like, at that stage, and, you know, I started thinking, okay, maybe I need to, like figure some different things out and I had some like friends who were Mormon friends, and they were like, we're going to go have a couple drinks and we think it should come with us. And I was like, okay, might as well might as well try this thing and see what happens. And the world didn't end and I didn't incinerate when I went into church the next day, and I was like, Well, what's what's up with that? Like, nobody could see that I dug this thing. Like it was it was yeah, like a mind breaking moment. And then like that kind of progressed, I ended up dating like finally kissing some we never really dated but I finally kissed someone he wasn't a member but check done got that off the list. It was fine. But in the middle of that, like I had no compass or barometer I didn't know what to do. I was having true crisis of faith because all of a sudden, I was at that place where what was expected and and what I was just were not fitting together anymore. And when I was in Charleston, I'd lost 120 pounds. I was running marathons like I ran a half marathon. I was very physically active Pilates three times like I was doing all these things. I've gotten everything in my life like organized ordered up as much as I possibly could. I actually had cosmetic surgery to remove excess skin from the weight loss, done everything I could do. And it was still not enough. It was crushing, it was still not getting me the thing that I thought I wanted most in the world. So a little bit of a faith crisis. And by a little bit, I mean a lot law. There was a person who took advantage of this, someone who knew that I had a couple of drinks. And I was like, you know, experimenting with some social things and use that in a way that I didn't realize because I'm innocent. And I don't know. But I ended up losing my virginity when I was right. And it took sorry. I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's one of those things, it took 10 years for me to admit that that's what that was, until national attention saying, Oh, by the way, if you're drunk, you can't consent before I could really process through because I thought I had just made a sexual sin. And it was, you know, and I went and talked to my bishop, like, the next day, and I handed in my recommended, I'm like, Oh, I don't know. And they of course, treated it like, Yeah, you said, and you know, and that just kind of like further drove a wedge. And so Charleston kind of exploded for me. And I had a friend offered me a free move to Phoenix. And I was like, I just gotta go, I gotta get someplace new, I got to refresh. And once I was in Phoenix, I, I worked my way back into the church. And looking back, I think it was more of a comfort and familiarity, but there were singles wards full of young professionals who I had things in common with and who I aligned with. In Phoenix, I got hired at Make A Wish America as a corporate alliances Manager, which was the most fun job, like, you know, it's, it was awesome. It was you know, working with companies to use the Make a Wish brand. So if you donate $1, you know, we'll give you a coupon like all kinds of fun stuff. But I got to work with like game stuff, and build a bear and all these fun things. So all these, this stuff starts to work in place, I'm back in church working for Make A Wish I could get my temple recommend back, I worked for a year Read, read the miracle of forgiveness, which wasn't nearly as helpful as focusing on reading from the New Testament. And I remember having a moment of starting to really like, see people like I would see a homeless person sitting at a, at a bench at a bus bench on the side of the road and think, wow, like that person is a god, and seeing people for their divine insides by reconnecting to some of those stories in the New Testament in Christ and how he saw people and I was like, that was a healing moment. And I get my recommend back. And one month later, my sister in law now Amanda was killed in a car accident. Oh, I'm so sorry. So it was, you know, all of these things kind of like swirling together and like, like happening, and I was so grateful to have my face intact at that moment, because it was a great thing to lean on. And I tell you from from an energy perspective, I've never felt more wrapped up in love than I did during that phrase in my life. And you could tell like, like, 1000s of people praying for it, she was just one of these glowing souls. And, you know, I fly back to Charleston for the, for the funeral. And there's, you know, 2000 people in the state center. And, you know, like, so much just like love and mourning my, my brother, so, and she had, she had a 15 month old daughter at the time and was pregnant with their second. So just huge like, like, the absolute saddest moment of my life was watching my younger brother, we ended up burying her on his 25th birthday. So it was exactly four years to the date from the day I introduced them to this life experience now and you know, they because they'd finished up in Hawaii and moved back home with her parents in Charleston. That's how things kind of like shaped up. But it was, it was just it was the absolute worst tragedy of our lives trying to figure this out. And yet, through that tragedy, the thing that was in the church that gave us the most comfort was this concept of eternal families and having them sealed together. And I mean, people are talking to my brother about how he's a patriarch, because he's gonna have more than one wife sealed to him. And you know, these things for a 25 year old kid who just lost his wife, but, you know, but it was comforting because we fully fully like everybody believed and embraced it. So. So that was really, really hard. And I think that event was one that marked the beginning of my faith transition. So it was a crisis, work my way back into the church and then more of a process of unpacking and transitioning out. Why do you think why do you feel like that was kind of the turning point for you, especially experiencing the comfort of the Mormon religion, the love that you're wrapped and I'm curious what it was that kind of started pushing that over the edge. So it was really great and amazing in the moment, like in the moment of the big tragedy and in the way that people came around. But after that moment, it became, I'd say, increasingly less satisfying and fulfilling. So, you know, I went into counseling after that, too. And it also kind of coincided with when I was turning 31, and transitioning out of the singles ward. So there was a lot of transition happening. Yeah, and that type two, and I had a really great counselor who was like helping me learn to see myself and celebrate myself and celebrate my accomplishments. And, you know, I was in this weird position where my job was something doing this really great, incredible good in this world. And like, I'm a 31 year old woman doing these great things, raising millions of dollars for an awesome cause. And that edited a dud, like all these things. And everywhere in my life, I felt good about myself. Except when I went to church on Sunday. And at church on Sunday, as a single woman in a family Ward, it just didn't. Like, I felt unneeded, I felt like, you know, and I was in a great Ward, they were awesome, progressive, like very cool people. And yet, it was like, there just isn't anything here for me. And so I started looking at, I looked at Amanda and the way she lived her life and the way that she, you know, went for the things that she wanted. And I started to think the answer of, oh, well, you're not married. So just to save Elliott, and we'll fix it in the next life. Having her gone at such a young age taught me that I don't want to wait for that. I don't want to wait for the next life when I'm alive now. And what's here now, in the present? What are the things that, you know? I'm missing out on? Because I'm not. I'm not doing that. So. Yeah, so that was kind of where it wasn't. I was like, Okay, let me try and moderate Mormonism for a little while. But the more I started to see with, like, the wishes, and all these amazing, wonderful co workers who I was with, make a wish. And I was like, you know, these people, they're good people. Like, who am I to be so like, closed up and judging? And what am I missing by not just relaxing and being here in life? And yeah, that really, that really kind of like opened it up. If that was the start of it, it was it had to be. It had to be that real and that personal. And part of like, because it was so personal for me. And what drove me there, like that's the part of me that says, you know, I don't have any desire to try to convince, or D convert or tell somebody what they should believe, or that I've solved a problem they haven't or whatever. All I know is for me, and for my experiences, this is where I'm landing. Mm hm. So from that point, and kind of starting to pivot it a little bit more, how long was it until you decided, You know what, I'm just, I'm done. It was, let's see, from that point, it was probably another two years before I officially removed my records. I'd stopped attending because that didn't really feel like what I wanted to do with my time on Sundays. And it was kind of amazing as soon as I stopped being so all in a good friend of mine, who was a co worker, who was one of the people who hosted happy hours and was this very social, really nice, outgoing guy ended up being interested in me, which shocked me, because, you know, my, my friend, my friend over here, my friend, Dan, like, well, I've already eaten wings in front of them, you know, like, there was no mystery. There was no like, trying to impress them or build up walls. Like, he was already well behind the walls before I realized, like, Oh, crap, that's a that's an interested party. But so we started dating pretty quickly. And in the middle of like, because it was after I stepped out, because, you know, he had looked at me, and he had been interested in me before, but then when he learned I was warming, it's like, oh, no, that's never gonna work. So nevermind. So we were literally just friends for a long time. Which I think is one of those misconception pieces. Like, you know, I've never told my story in full on Facebook or on social media, or whatever, because quite frankly, it's mine. And I don't need to, why do I need to like drum up drama around these things, people who see the pictures pick up on things. But I think part of the reason I wanted to tell us like, you know, I don't want the assumptions around my story like I was, these were the experiences these were the things in my heart. And it wasn't it wasn't a desire to sin. It wasn't a desire to go out and start doing these bad horrible things. It was it was recognizing and checking in and acknowledging with myself and then when I got more honest with myself. opportunities opened up. So it wasn't a closing it was I'm open to things coming in. I remember having a thought once before it's fully out like, oh wait, God designed your body to feel good when it has sex. Maybe God wants me to have a good sex life like, like thoughts like, you know, wait, what? Okay, I just have to I just have to little, I have to add this in here. Okay. I recently learned that there are several Mormons and it could be other religions, that when they get married, they believe that sex is through the belly button. And doctors have commented, and this it's a woman that a friend of mine shared it with me, this woman has a very large following and something she had posted led to all these people sharing these stories. And I'm not kidding you people have thought that sex intercourse is through the belly button. So they come into the doctor's offices with bruised and battered bellies and hernias and all sorts of things, because they're legit trying to conceive and to have sex. And though it's miserable. Anyway, I just I'm like, it was so like, wait, what? There are people like this in the world that really think anyway, just know that there for a minute. If you guys are interested, I'll say, um, I can't remember her name off the top of my head, but I'll put it down in the show notes. If you want to go see her stories. It's under stories. It says belly button. No, my gosh. Well, but I think that actually, that highlights something that I didn't realize was so relevant to my story. But here's some more stuff. But like, you know, it's I think that we've done a huge massive disservice and how we're raising this generation to think about sex and sexuality. And, you know, the process of being human I. When I was 12 years old, I was having a slumber party with a friend and they taught me what masturbation was. I didn't know anything about it. They called it. They called it Getting horny. And I was like, okay, cool, whatever this is. And I was like, Oh, well, that's interesting. And it was two years later, when I was sitting in a darkened Sunday school room watching the very key from I think it was Boyd K Packer to the old filmstrip. And that's, that's one of the notorious ones where they've edited what's out there now, but I know they sat there and told like me that if I touched myself, I would become gay. And like, really, thanks. Oh, yeah, I've never even heard of this video. For me it was the bishop coming in and doing the you know, morality conversation when you're 12 you're, you know, now they got away with it. But in young woman's I was a beehive. And I I had masturbated up until that point, I didn't know I thought it was just natural, like, just a normal theme. And then all of a sudden, oh, crap. I, you know, at 12 years old, I am a sinner. I'm horrible. I had to go into my Bishop's office. I carry guilt and shame and yeah, say it's ever heard. Yeah, I've never heard of that video. Oh, yeah. It was like Janata Rosie's feelings in yourself or others. And me, it was just, it was this whole, like, really shame. And here I was, I'd already done it. And I was in, you know, a small youth group in South Carolina. And I was the good kid, like me and my cousin. So six kids in my family, we grew up next door to six cousins. So we were like, the anchors of good Mormon kids, we were very insulated, we were kind of scared. I was scared to like, have any extra friends because they're gonna corrupt you. But like, you know, we were like, like this. And, you know, and then there were other kids who we hit high school and they're having sex and going out and getting pregnant. And, and so I felt immense pressure, not just from church, but from like, my, you know, all these people in my ward who were like my aunts and uncles, because I've been with them for forever. And I felt like I could never go and tell that bishop that I had this horrible sense. So, you know, I remember going to youth activities and we'd have like, you know, one where they simulated a plane crash and like, Okay, now you're done. And we're going to go to, you know, the Three Kingdoms. And I hope you're in this kingdom of glory. I don't have ever heard of that one. But yeah, I heard that when we did the iron rod, and we would be tempted and don't let go of iron rod, we did that thing. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's all kind of the same stuff. But this was this was particularly when I look back. I was like, that's kind of messed up. Because, you know, you probably remember going on a flight to Hawaii, and then you crash them all dead. And you're like, how do you live your life. And I remember going home from some activity sometimes. And, like at 16, thinking, I would be better off if I just drove my car off the side of the road and died, because I'm not gonna make it anyways. And it'd be easier and better than like, trying to fix this and trying to like do this. So, you know, aside from having very limited understanding of like your body and what's natural, it wasn't until I was in my late 30s and doing the classes to become a foster parent to adopt that I learned that masturbation is natural and normal from the time you're in the womb, like it is a natural and that because they have to teach you like, what's normal and what's excessive, because excessive can cue that there's some things that need to be addressed for kids from various backgrounds. But you know, and I remember leaving that class and being so angry, I'm like, Why did I feel suicidal? over something that is normal and natural? Like how, you know, it's it's hard to explain for somebody who's on the outside looking in how much that messaging is built into, it almost feels like pushed into your DNA. And how much one pack? Yeah, what's the scripture that says the natural man is an enemy to God? Yeah. And and yeah, and anyway, this could, we could have a whole other podcast about we could go, we could go, yeah, yeah. So back to back to where I was with kind of like, you know, opening myself up to the possibility that there's more good in the world than this one thing that I've assigned my life to, I volunteered on a wish for a kid who had a brain tumor. And we were given two weeks to grant the wish before, he wouldn't really be able to understand what was going on. And, you know, we go in and we get, we always say, like, kind of like, number one, and then like, Okay, what's your second backup choice if we can't make this happen? And the kids number one wish was a celebrity wish to meet his favorite director. And I was just like, whoa, please let this be a quick No, because sometimes you could be waiting six months a year to hear back from a celebrity. And this was someone who was a very sophisticated director, so we've never done a wish with them before. But we got back a quick yes, for this kid. And it was gonna be a Skype thing. But then at the last minute, he was like, No, I'm gonna come in. So he flew himself from New York, to Phoenix, like on a private jet. And like, and this is something that is like, they don't publicize. This is not anything that anybody ever talked about. This was just the person meeting the kid. And being in the room with that family, when that happened, was the most amazing moment of pure person to person connection, like the director mentioned, like this random, obscure movie, and the kid starts humming a song from the movie because he had watched it because he knew that he was inspired by that movie, like, like, just, you know, it was like a masterclass, and the family recorded it. So they have it all saved and preserved forever. The director kept sending gifts back to the hospital. But the coolest thing was at the end of the visit, they'd asked about the family's religious affiliation, and they were Catholic. And this director had studied to be a priest at one point in time. And so he presented the kids mom with a rosary that had been blessed by the Pope, which you have to have an audience with the Pope to get. And every time I went back with more gifts and more things, it was hanging on his bed, she was wearing it, the family invited me to pray with him, and I went to pray and they prayed the rosary, which kind of blew my mind. Because I'd been taught to vilify that, again, I grew up in the 80s when the Catholic Church was the horrible the earth and, and I'm sitting here and in that hospital room, praying with that family, I had a spiritual experience that rivaled and was in alignment with the time I spent as an ordinance worker in the temple. It wasn't less than it wasn't temporary. It wasn't a one off. It was the same. And that was the moment when I could no longer let my life be dedicated to this absolute one thing, when there was so much good out in the world, and that was that was kind of the end of believing in the one the one true church but yeah, the only true church. Wow. Story. So did you marry? Is that your husband? The story? Yes. What guy? Why don't we go back to that? Yeah, so we got married. And I'll tell you what was interesting in that to just like the 32nd version of it is, you know, in the first couple of years were really, really, really difficult. And, as I've like, unpacked a little more, I realized, that's what happens when you have someone who is kind of an emotionally stunted adult who seems to be fully functioning, but I never learned how to do this on my own. And learning that with another person was a different unique challenge. But you know, it's it's really amazing, like looking back and one of the biggest things that stood out to me when he first started investigating the church, and we would go and I went a couple of times, and then I ended up going because I'd get really crabby afterwards. So we're like, I've been here done that I'm done. He just it stresses me out, but sitting there in chapel this was a good moment, like sitting in a chapel. And hearing people talk about, you know, if you just read the scriptures, if you just pray, if you just stay true to the faith just did it, you will have everything you wanted. And I'm sitting there on a, on a on a row with the husband I always wanted. And with three beautiful, amazing children, and a nice home and now like, and things just keep getting better. And I and I could I literally was like, I know, I know. I know, that is not the case. I know that I know that. I would not have everything I wanted if I had stayed on that course. So that is this awareness to be like, oh, and that's not true. And and that's, I see why you say that. I see why. And yet, I can't go against the evidence of my life that this is where I am. Wow, what what it? What a beautiful story. And again, I just love listening to your great. Like, I'm just like, encapsulated. I just I love I love, love, love this. Is there anything that you as you were thinking about what you wanted to share? And what you wanted to say? Is there anything else that you feel like is really something that is important for you to share? Yeah, I think, um, a lot of times, and in seeing all the people that I've seen transition out of the faith, there's so much confusion. And I feel like there's an immediacy that comes like, especially when you're in the early stages of the faith transition where you're like, Well, I left, left this. So what's going on? What did it like, you know, there's, there's almost like a frantic feeling of, you're falling because you are cutting ties and losing, like, a lot of the structure and stability and security. And the place that I've gotten with my face now and gradually over many years. But if you could take a shortcut with this, by all means do. Right is right. I, I believe in things that are true, whether or not I believe in them. So that's become the marker that I use. And I think that, you know, the more I explore that it's energy seems to be the lowest common denominator, because it's science and its spirit. And it's putting out and getting back and transfer in motion and your bodies and everything else can kind of like, and I bet there's a lot of things we still assigned to religion that are probably just science we haven't figured out yet. But to me believing in things that are true, that don't require your belief to be true. Are the things you can trust it and maybe sometimes it's just your breath. Maybe sometimes it's just the fact that you woke up this morning, but I don't see rises every day. Yeah, exactly. Oh, we have such good sunsets here. I love that. One that is beautiful wisdom and kind of I mean, you already kind of said it. But is there advice that you give and seems to be consistent advice you give, especially since you're admin to that group, but is there something that, you know, as people are listening to this, and they may be going through their own faith crisis and struggling, what would be a piece of advice you'd give them? I mean, struggle is evidence of something that needs your attention. So don't be afraid of struggling. But don't be afraid of being afraid. Like, like, all the feelings are natural and normal. There are no bad feelings. Anger is okay. I'm still figuring out how to use anger. That's another one of those things that My poor husband has been like. I'm not good at it. Because I stuffed it in bottle up and guess what, guys, that's unhealthy. So, you know, learning to change your relationship with your feelings. And and that's, I think, part of learning to trust your feelings that everything is given to you to teach you to show you, you've still got to put work into it. But you know, it's all about the trajectory. And and the longer you can practice feeling comfortable just moving in a direction. I feel for me, at least the less I've been focused on now, where am I going? Because, you know, I still have ideas and I have goals and I have things that I want to do. But there's a lot more flow to I don't have to know all the answers right now. So give yourself some patients, give yourself some grace. It's okay to feel the things you're not alone. A lot of people have felt them. Do what you need to do to support yourself. Whatever you need to do to support yourself is okay. Right now, if you need blanket permission, it's all okay. Here's your permission. Here it is. Yes. I love that. And one of the things that I find very helpful, especially with our feelings with our emotions is they are just tools. They're tools that are showing us something and when we suppress it, it actually speaking of Energy and actually suppressing As the energy that's trying to move, you're, you're stopping it. And like anything, you know, if you were to stop blood flow, you would no longer your hand would have to be cut off because there's no blood flow to the hand. And it's similar in energy. That's emotions, its energy and motion is there for a reason it's trying to move through it actually fuels the body gives it energy, and when we suppress it, it'll cause brain fog, and all sorts, all sorts of things. So that's something that I've always found helpful as far as how I like to visualize energy is actually Oh, this just energy in motion. Why is this coming up? What does it mean? You know, what's it showing me I love that you said struggle is evidence that something needs attention. It's like this the same thing? I have anger coming up. Why am I feeling angry? Why am I holding it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So beautiful. Oh, thank you. Is there anything else that you feel like you want to share? I think that, uh, you know, aside from just expressing my love for people, I you know, I think that maybe it's important to say that there was a point in my journey early in the days when I was in my super struggle, reactive phase, that I felt some pretty intense guilt over all the people that I taught temple prep to, over all the people that I assisted as an ordinance worker in the temple, I was an escort for friends. There were people who did things and said they only did them because I promised them it was the thing to do. And I felt really, really bad about that. So you know, and yet, I'm like, at this point in time, I realized like I was doing the best I could with what I had, I was doing the best. And who's to say that it hasn't been a great thing for them and for their lives. So yeah, maybe just kind of a blanket apology if there's anyone that that ever caused harm or pain to but then also open arms and a loving Welcome to any one of those people. I started to think about, maybe there's people who I didn't know along the way, who are now struggling with their faith journey and feel like they can't do anything about it. You're not stuck, you're fine. You have choice. You can do this. You can make the choices for your life, even if I promised you not to. It was it was never about me. It was about what you needed to hear it the time suddenly had a choice of whether they listened and if they took that to heart that was there just Eisley precisely continued permission to listen to yourself is Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Well, Carrie, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, what a pleasure. It's been to chat with you and to get to spend time and I have no doubt that your stories will really be impactful to a lot of people. So thank you. Thank you for what you're doing here. I love the podcast. Yeah. Yeah, it's been fun, unexpected, but super, super fun. So wasn't she's so fun to listen to her way of communicating and storytelling. Oh, my gosh, it was just captivating. Thank you, as always for joining me. If you are feeling the call to share your story, please reach out. You can email me Amanda or AJ at Amanda Joy co.com. Or go to my social media sites and message me there. And while we're on that topic, make sure you're following my social media sites to be one of the first to know when I am launching different things. And speaking of that, I almost forgot, I have one spot left for a three month immersive program that I offer. And I don't open up spots very often. And currently, I have one spot open. And the three month immersive program is really a results driven program, where we start with a beginning map so to speak. And by the time you're done through the three months you really have, you have results that you can see and tangible results. And really going to those places and unbinding and unwinding and breaking the chains that are holding you back and those limiting beliefs letting those go of whatever it is that you're carrying, so that you can really truly fulfill what you're here to do. We do one on one weekly sessions. And there's so many other things that are involved with this if you're interested in this you're as I'm talking this is you that is like hell yep, that's my spot. I need to claim that message me or again, you can email me at AJ at Amanda Joy co.com. And as always know that you're not alone. I've had some really beautiful messages that have come through just with people that have been listening to these podcasts and just the comfort and support and the joy that it's bringing them and I appreciate every single one of you that has taken the time out of your day to share that with me it really means a lot. So wherever you are in the world, just a reminder, you're not alone. You got this and you will 100% navigate through it and get on the other side. And with that sending you all so much love