In this captivating episode of the MindHack Podcast, host Cody McLain engages in a profound conversation with Guy Kawasaki, a visionary in the tech landscape and master evangelist. Known for his instrumental role in marketing Apple's Macintosh and his impactful books like 'Wise Guy' and 'The Art of the Start 2.0', Guy shares his wisdom on transforming lives and making a meaningful difference.
We delve into his latest work, 'Think Remarkable', acclaimed by Jane Goodall for its call to elevate our lives and positively impact the world. Guy discusses embracing change, the power of a growth mindset, and the importance of making a difference to be truly remarkable. Join us as we explore Guy's insights on innovation, marketing, and the journey to leading a fulfilling life.
More on Guy Kawasaki:
Website
Facebook
YouTube
Twitter
Instagram
LinkedIn
Think Remarkable: 9 Paths to Transform Your Life and Make a Difference
Other books here
Books and other interesting mentions:
Canva
Macintosh
Remarkable People Podcast
Jane Goodall
Carol Dweck
Bob Cialdini
Kristi Yamaguchi
Andrea Lytle Peet
Reed Hastings
Kodak
Theranos
In this captivating episode of the MindHack Podcast, host Cody McLain engages in a profound conversation with Guy Kawasaki, a visionary in the tech landscape and master evangelist. Known for his instrumental role in marketing Apple's Macintosh and his impactful books like 'Wise Guy' and 'The Art of the Start 2.0', Guy shares his wisdom on transforming lives and making a meaningful difference.
We delve into his latest work, 'Think Remarkable', acclaimed by Jane Goodall for its call to elevate our lives and positively impact the world. Guy discusses embracing change, the power of a growth mindset, and the importance of making a difference to be truly remarkable. Join us as we explore Guy's insights on innovation, marketing, and the journey to leading a fulfilling life.
More on Guy Kawasaki:
Website
Facebook
YouTube
Twitter
Instagram
LinkedIn
Think Remarkable: 9 Paths to Transform Your Life and Make a Difference
Other books here
Books and other interesting mentions:
Canva
Macintosh
Remarkable People Podcast
Jane Goodall
Carol Dweck
Bob Cialdini
Kristi Yamaguchi
Andrea Lytle Peet
Reed Hastings
Kodak
Theranos
Guy currently leads Canvas, chief Evangel, I still can't say that word. How do you say that word?
Guy:Well make sure you don't conflate Evangelical and evangelist because those two things are very, very different.
CODY:you know, I think it'll be better if it's butchered, it makes me look more real.
Guy:I'll butcher something during the interview too.
CODY:Welcome to another episode of The Mind Hack podcast. I'm your host, Cody McLain, and today we're honored to be talking with Guy Kawasaki, a visionary in the tech landscape and master Evangelist Guy was instrumental in marketing Apple's Macintosh in 1984, and he has since gone on to write 15 books, including Wise Guy, the Art of the Start 2.0 Guy currently leads as Canva's chief Evangelist and hosts The Remarkable People Podcast, offering deep insights and conversations with global leaders. Today, we delve into his latest work, think Remarkable, acclaimed by Jane Goodall for its call to elevate our lives and positively impact the world. Let's uncover the key themes of his book and how guy's wisdom can transform our personal and professional endeavors. Please welcome Guy Kawasaki.
Guy:Here I am
CODY:I am absolutely grateful that you are here. it makes me think that there's been like a mix up for the universe for you to grace my humble little podcast with your presence, your journey from helping to shape Apple's success and authoring so many books. And now you're currently leading the charge at Canva. it's nothing short of legendary. And, with your latest book, think Remarkable. I have to ask, is this like the Magnum Opus of Guy Kawasaki, or is there still more wisdom you're planning to unleash on us in the future?
Guy:I, never thought I would hear my name in the same sentence as Magnum Opus, first of all. well, have written now 16 books and I, I kind of thought at any given point, each one of 'em was my magnum opus. So yeah, this is the latest magnum opus. I don't know if it's the final or the best, but it's the latest.
CODY:hmm. Well, so, in this book, can you share what is the message that you hope to share with the reader? What is the, what's the purpose of this book?
Guy:At the highest level, what I'm trying to say is that if you want to be remarkable, and if you want people to think of you as being remarkable, the way to do that is not to just reposition, rebrand, market yourself, but make a difference. If you make a difference. It could be to one person, it could be to millions of people. You don't have to be Steve Jobs or Elon Musk to be remarkable. one person could do it, one team, one classroom. And if you make a difference, people will have no choice but to think that you're remarkable. So the way to be remarkable is to make a difference.
CODY:it's interesting how we can have one person who says that we made a difference in their lives, that we were remarkable to them. are you embracing a concept of having a remarkable change just for. As long as it's one person or a thousand people.
Guy:It could be one person and it could be yourself. my podcast is called Remarkable People. My book is called Think Remarkable, and I'm not saying Think Rich or Think Famous, or Think Influential or, you know, influential people or rich people or famous people we're looking after remarkable people and remarkable people have made a difference. And as we've said, it could be to just one person. It could be yourself.
CODY:And so to become a remarkable person, you mentioned that there are various things and lessons that we need to, embrace, and your first lesson is really about embracing change and in, in your first chapter, you mentioned some stories about embracing hockey and surfing, but also how that pales in comparison to two NASA rocket scientists or even Jane Goodall. I'm wondering if you could start us off with sharing one of these stories.
Guy:sure. So the framework of the book at the top, top level is that there are three phases, growth, grit, and grace. The growth phase involves a growth mindset. This is the work pioneered by Carol Dweck, and the growth mindset means that you believe that you can learn new skills, you can embrace new things, that you're not static, you're not done. And I even mean that you're not done even if you are very successful in one thing, a growth mindset for a successful person would be to grow even more and take more risk, and risk your reputation and self image. And that's what it takes. the book reflects interviewing over 200 people. And these are people like Jane Goodall, Steve Wozniak, Stacey Abrams, David Ocker, Bob Cialdini, Kristi Yamaguchi, I could go on 200 times. And every one of them had a growth mindset. There are no remarkable people who don't have a growth mindset.
CODY:the growth mindset, I also read Carol's book and it's fascinating how we can also have a growth and a fixed mindset on multiple different issues. It's not just the black and white, that we're purely somebody who has a growth mindset, but it can be a challenge to have a growth mindset and the areas in our life that need to matter the most Really.
Guy:That's true. I I might make the case that if you had a growth mindset about everything, you might get a little too busy. I mean, I don't particularly have a growth mindset about, I don't know, yoga. Okay. But, you have to narrow things down. But I guess what I'm saying is that at least a general philosophy that you're open to new things. That doesn't mean you have to be open to everything.
CODY:it's allowing ourselves that to have the mindset to attempt something new, even if we've never done it before, because it's often that, fear of not knowing of what's next, that prevents us from taking any action that's going to bring us further and closer to our goal. And you're saying that's what sets, unremarkable from an a remarkable person is that they're willing to take that chance.
Guy:I mean that's one major factor. There are others, but yes. remarkable people are willing to take that chance.
CODY:And you also mentioned the concept of embracing change, which is kind of in line with that. And it's something that I think we all experience and we all know, is that we are going to have change in our lives whether we like it or not. And so what is the difference between just somebody who endures change in somebody who actually truly embraces it?
Guy:I think that when you quote endure change, you are, you're making a calculation that this is how it's going to be. I just need to put up with it. I just need to, you know, get by. Whereas a growth mindset would say, this is a learning opportunity, so I'm not just gonna go with it. I'm gonna be all in and I'm gonna learn and progress, not just resist.
CODY:And one of the other methods of change or inspiration, if you will, that you mentioned is also envy, which I found interesting how you rode in a friend's Porsche nine 11 and you had envy for that. And that drove a source of motivation and that was actually reminiscent of my childhood because my friend had a Range Rover and I wanted a Range Rover. And so that was a source of my motivation.
Guy:and you know what I mean? My point here is that, and I think this is a very important point. That, there's this kind of romanticism and it's like when you're in a beauty contest and there's that open-ended question, like, you know, what is important to you? And everybody's trained to say some politically correct, socially optimized answer. Like, what's important to me is everybody have clean water or everybody has an education or everybody can vote, or that the oceans are cleaned up. And you know, don't get me wrong, I want all that to happen. But, if being completely honest, if somebody said to me, guy, what motivated you when you were young to study hard, work, hard, you know, all the good stuff. I would have to be honest. And I'll tell you something. I come from a lower middle class family and where I. Caught the public mass transit system twice. I was robbed on that. And then in high school, I got a ride in some family friends nine 11. And then when I went to college, my roommate was from a very wealthy family, so I got to drive his mother's Ferrari, Daytona,
CODY:Hmm.
Guy:and I envied having a Daytona, I envied having a nine 11. I make no bones about it. And so I, came to this realization that, listen, mom and dad aren't just gonna buy you those cars, so you gotta go get educated. You gotta work hard so that someday you can buy that car. And that's not nearly as sort of socially acceptable and, high line as trying to end climate change. But. I'm telling you that's what motivated me, and I think the lesson that I learned is what's not important is what your motivation is as long as you get motivated. So for me, the motivation was buying a better car for you. If it's ending global warming, hallelujah. Maybe you'll study harder to help that end, and maybe I will study harder to get a car. Of course, now that I think about it, using those two examples, they're kind of contradictory because if you buy a car, you're not helping climate change.
CODY:there's an interesting comparison though, is that you, perhaps your goal is to help climate change, but if you're not motivated, then it, you're no further along than anybody else. And the interesting comparisons I see behind, uh, both of our stories is, is I was also a very, a poor kid and we were a poor family, but I happened to go to a rich high school. And so I was exposed to the contrast of all this wealth, and that drove this innate hunger of I see what is out there I'm so close to it, but I can't access it. And that drove this innate desire that just fueled so much of my own motivation. And it seems like whether it's. Driving in a family friend's Porsche, is that you are able to utilize that motivation. And if somebody wants to change climate, perhaps the lesson within this is to seek the contrast. You know, find rich friends or expose yourself to the lifestyle or the people don't get lost in it, but perhaps that can be a source of motivation.
Guy:we're kind of focusing on material envy, but let's say that you're a little kid and you, you know, you're watching TV or you go to a figure skating competition and you see, you know, Christie Yamaguchi doing triple axles and stuff. Or you go to gymnastics and you see Simone Biles and you say, I envy Simone for being able to do that. Whatever that, you know, quadruple back, flip, jump, whatever she does. Or, I envy Kristi Yamaguchi for being able to do a triple axle. I wanna be like them. What's wrong with that? I think that is, that's perfectly acceptable to envy people, but envy for many people it sounds like the root of all evil, but I don't think it needs to be the root of all evil.
CODY:Well, in some ways we also don't have to envy them. We could see them also as a hero. And I know that in 2022 you almost went completely deaf and, you received a, cochlear implant, if I'm saying that correctly. But you also found a hero for yourself. Stanley, Andrisse, wondering if you can share a little bit about that experience.
Guy:Yeah. So in my book, I have several people who, you know, they were growing up in the projects. Both parents were crack addicts, or they were homeless, or they were imprisoned for 22 years of their life. and Then there's another woman who was diagnosed with ALS and decided to complete a marathon in all 50 states. And so I'm sitting here and I'm deaf, okay? So I'm deaf, but I got a cochlear implant. But there was a period where I was basically deaf and I didn't have a cochlear implant, and I was still podcasting. I, I remember one episode in particular where I was interviewing Neil Degrass Tyson. And I gotta tell you something, Neil Degrass Tyson has a very quick mind and a very quick wit. And the only way I could understand what he was saying is by reading a real time transcription. And it's very hard to read a real time transcription and trying to figure out, well, what did the transcription get wrong? And come up with the next question. And then I thought, you know what? Beethoven was deaf and he. He composed the fifth symphony, like so, you know, guy, get over it. I mean, you can do it. So, listen, I guarantee you that being deaf is not nearly as bad as being diagnosed with ALS so, you know, I don't, I don't prefer being deaf, but I'm telling you, there's a lot worse things people deal with than deafness.
CODY:yeah. her name, that was in 2014, Andrea Lytle Peet who was diagnosed with ALS and she finished 15th in a marathon. I. Um, and then she survived her for nine more years. And so what you're saying is to look at other people in history and look at all of these amazing feats and challenges despite their disabilities, if they had that level of resilience and determination, then so can you effectively.
Guy:absolutely. And I, I said that I don't, I didn't interview any remarkable people who didn't have a growth mindset. I'll also tell you that I did not interview any remarkable people who did not have a grit mindset, who spent years perfecting things, spent years learning, spent years sacrificing. So, this concept of a natural with instant success, I think is a myth. And, it does a disservice to people that, you know, you think, well, one, one real bad disservice is that if you think that people are naturally talented and they're given these gifts and it's easy for them, one of the consequences is that when people try something and it's difficult, they translate that. To being that it's difficult for me, therefore I wasn't meant to do it. I cannot do it. I should give up. my observation is that if you wanna be good at anything, it's gonna be hard. There's very few situations where you're just like instantly born into it and you're a natural and it comes easy and you don't have to practice. That is a myth.
CODY:Yeah, there's something, on that in terms of psychology, I forgot the exact term. It was in relation to skill versus talent. And I know there was a, a whole premise in the late nineties and early two thousands where they would be giving kids like gold stars and then it drew on. It changed their psychology to believing that they either had to work at something in order to be good at it, or they were just innately good at it. And that changed their own internal perception of whether or not they would exert effort towards a goal
Guy:Yeah, absolutely.
CODY:you talk a lot about embracing difficulties and obstacles as growth. And, there's a way that we should perceive failure as just a stepping stone. And I know you mentioned, examples like how Apple failed with a lot of products like the Apple three, Lisa Newton and Walt Disney was fired from his first animation job because he lacked imagination. and so there's countless examples and stories of people who were rejected. is there a correlation between all of these people that allowed them to persevere, despite these rejections?
Guy:Well, I would say that the common point is, this is kind of self-referencing, but the common point is that they just did not give up.
CODY:Hmm.
Guy:now listen, I I don't wanna paint the picture that if you never give up, it means that you'll succeed. It could be that you try a long time and you still fail. Don't get me wrong, okay? But if you don't try very hard for a long time, I pretty much can guarantee you that you will not achieve remarkable results. So It is necessary to do this, and you still might fail, but it would be wrong for me to paint this picture that all it takes is effort because it takes, yeah, you have to have some talent. You know, if you're five feet one, you're not going to play in the NBA well, although there have been some examples. But generally speaking, you're not gonna play in the NBA that, that's not a matter of grit or perseverance. It's just, it cannot be done. so that's important. But on the other hand, if you are seven feet five and you have all the gifts, but you don't persevere, you're not gonna succeed, you're not gonna be any better than this five foot one person. I mean, arguably you would be worse because you had The raw material. You could have done it, but you didn't do it. and the five foot one person didn't have it and still tried Arguably that's more admirable.
CODY:you have a chapter that talks about working backwards from a perspective of building a company and you reference, Reed Hastings and kind of with Netflix.
Guy:Yeah. So, the concept of working backwards is that you start with the customer and you work backwards from what they need that you can produce. Working forwards means we know we can produce materials that when exposed to light on Fillmore, on paper, produce a photographic image. We are very good at making film and paper. So you work forwards and you say, well, we gotta convince people to buy film and paper. On the other hand, if you're working backwards, you'd say, so what do people want from film and paper? they're not particular waking up in the morning saying, God, if only I could buy some chemicals on film. So what people want from photography is the ability to preserve memories. So right now we preserve memories with chemicals on film, but there's a better way, which is with a, digital processor. So, I mean, this describes Kodak, that Kodak in 1975 invented digital photography, but I think they only worked forward. They only saw that we're good at making chemicals, we're good at putting it on paper. We're good at people having to develop and print. And if they had worked backwards, they would say, wow, this is a much better way for people to preserve their memories. You, let's milk our cow called chemical film, but let's, create a new calf called digital photography.
CODY:and I, see that all the time with companies as well, including a previous company that I had that we got to a thousand people, is that as you end up building a business model based on a, precondition set of criteria, it becomes much more difficult to convince investors or the rest of the executives, Hey, let's go spend a bunch of money on this other thing that's not making money, because we could spend it on the more of the thing that is making us money. But then that's how we end up with corporations that end up not changing how they work or investing in new r and d. So in some ways, you have to have a culture that's built on innovation and I think, say, go ahead.
Guy:I mean, those of you listening, if you don't believe this, ask yourself, are you using a Kodak camera today? Are you renting, DVDs from Blockbuster? Are you using a Smith Corona or Remington ran typewriter, right? Or maybe do you have a horse and buggy and a whip, or do you have a car? and someday we're gonna ask ourselves, well, are you spewing forth noxious chemicals or are you using clean electricity to charge your car? I mean, this is, these are not theoretical questions.
CODY:And so that brings to the fact that there's constant innovation in the markets. There's always a new trend that's going on. And how do we determine if you're building a business, if you're trying to, whether you're an Etsy seller or you're building a startup with a bunch of VC money, there's always tides and new trends going on. Is there a specific set of decisions or thoughts or values that we should abide by to use as a means of testing? Should we ride this trend or not?
Guy:I don't think it's a science. I think luck is often a big part of it who could predict some things would be successful. but having said that, if you try to keep in mind that, look, let's work back from the customer, can we see a path where this fills something that a customer needs that cannot get that right now? another test would be, is this something that I would use or is this something only some theoretical, boomer with 2.2 kids would use who drives a Volvo? and then I, I, I hate to say it, but. It's the law of big numbers. You gotta take a lot of shots and it's, I talk about in the book about how you grow oak trees and you gotta plant a lot of acorns to get a few oaks.
CODY:I think Steve Jobs was a great example of this, at least with the iPhone, who, you know, he popularized. wasn't there an interview or something where he said that if he had asked the average person or the consumer what they would've wanted, they would've said, want a music device, or I want a phone. And so perhaps did he work backwards from the perspective of the consumer seeing all of these needs and then come up with the underlying idea as this, central device? Is that an example of that?
Guy:to mix several metaphors, I would say that Steve Jobs was the black swan. Purple cow, unicorn, farting, pixie dust. And so Steve Jobs maybe unlike any other person, maybe Elon Musk is right up there too. You know, somehow they are on a such a different level that they could intuit what people would need before people could express it to them. And yeah, so here's the danger. So I believe Steve Jobs should truly do that, maybe better than anyone in the history of American industry, but the likelihood of me or you, or people listening to this to be that good at what Steve Jobs did is not. Very likely. So, yes. it's good to be inspired by people like Steve Jobs, but, people have to realize that he is a black swan, purple cow, unicorn, farting, pixie dust. He's not your regular person.
CODY:you talk about this concept of planting seeds, getting stoked about oaks and, planting multiple different acorns and trusting that this is a process that is going to come back to you in the end. how does that fit with this idea of, focusing and getting really, really good at one thing? Because there's so many things to do now that if, say, we're, kind of dividing our attention between a bunch of different things. How can we ever get really good at one thing.
Guy:at the highest level, remarkable people can keep two conflicting ideas in their brain. You know, one idea is focus, focus, focus, focus. Another idea is pivot, pivot, pivot, pivot. Both ideas can work, both ideas can also fail, so that's important that you know there. Listen, as an author, or at least an author who has some regard for truth and transparency, I cannot tell you that any author or any book, much less my own and myself can tell you that this is the one and only way to do things. Sometimes people pivot, sometimes people gut it out. Both can work. Sometimes you only know which one will work after you've done it. So it's complicated. And listen, if I could tell you exactly what to do step by step, with no doubt, I would charge a lot more for my book. I would have surge pricing for my book every day, every minute, every copy. But you know this, this book is 170 pages, so it's very short, but it reflects 200 interviews and 5,000 pages of transcripts. It has 88 techniques in it. So each technique takes about two pages, and some of them conflict. You know, pivot versus cut it out. it would be dishonest for me to say that, there's only one way that works. I have to present you with multiple ways. And sometimes one way works better than the other, but that's life. And don't let any author or guru or visionary try to tell you that they know exactly how the future will unfold and exactly what to do. You should run from people who will say that I.
CODY:economists,
Guy:you, you listen, whether it's an economist or a financial reporter or even the weatherman weather woman, you notice that people are very good at explaining what happened and why. Right. You know, the stock market went up 50 points today because the labor department announced that the creation of jobs was greater than what was anticipated. Right? Like, you can, you can always say, oh, the stock market went up. Let's tie it to this occurrence. The stock market went down. Oh, that's because, Donald Trump said that the US would get out of NATO if he was elected president. So, I mean, if people are so smart and they can explain everything, how about you try to explain something forward? So don't just try to, don't just explain and interpret what happened and why as if, you know, cause and effect. Prove that you really know what you're doing. By telling us before it happens, it's gonna happen. That's the test.
CODY:I actually have an idea as to how the acorn and how that analogy could actually work. Is that you mentioned to pursue interests, not passion. So if we consider an acorn, say an interest. Whenever, we grow up, we tend to default to areas that we've had previous experience in. So whether it's playing football or having sports or taking a computer class, most of the difficulties is actually just getting started. It's getting some level of familiarity with it. So if we took a programming class in school, it's gonna be easier to go back and start programming, say 20 years later if you decide that's what you wanna do. So perhaps the acorn analogy is to experience as many of your interests as early as possible so that you're digging your heel into the ground at least a little bit, so that if something that, that you pursue doesn't work out, you have all of these other interests and you're not just starting from a blank slate.
Guy:Well, I would say that, my message with the acorns is, so I collected hundreds of acorns and I put them in water. And the ones that float, you throw away because those are the dead ones, right? so this is like. Lots of things seem interesting to you at the start. And you put 'em in water and they float so they're dead. You want the ones that are, full of nutrients and those would sink. So that's a quick first pass of interest. And then you take those ones that sink and you plant them in the ground and you plant hundreds. And out of that, you get 20 seedlings. And then out of the 20 seedlings. they were interests and you really pursued them, gave them a chance. And of those 20, maybe two become passions. That's my message. you could not, at the beginning when I, gathered 400 acorns from these trees in Los Gatos, California. Listen, it would've been a lot easier if I could say I looked at all the acorns on the ground and I knew that those two are the ones that's gonna be an oak tree. It's absolutely not true. I just gathered as many acorns as I could, and there's no way to predict that.
CODY:and you mentioned weeding the seeds, which is, as you say, discernment and, a need to assess yourself, to reassess. is that related?
Guy:well I think discernment and assessing yourself well is part of discernment. and that's because we live in a world with so many interests and interesting things, and there's so many false flags that, you need. I interviewed the people from Stanford about this course of, you know, basic computer and internet literacy, and this is all about discernment, right? So yeah, I give, I'll give you some real tactical examples from the book that for example, many people believe that when an organization's website is.org, it means that this is an organization that is not-for-profit, unselfish, and trying to make the world a better place because dot orgs are non-profits, good hearted, honest, transparent companies trying to make the world a better place. But in fact, anybody with 20 bucks can buy a.org domain. So you should not be fooled by a.org domain at all. That's one form of discernment.
CODY:you also mentioned the idea of, making a difference. I suppose this is making a difference if you're trying to build a company, if you're trying to build something that means something to you, that is an interest, or a passion. there's some ideas that you gave, such as like how scientists at Pfizer where they were trying to make a drug for heart problems, but then they noticed it improved directions.
Guy:Yeah. Well, the context in which I use that example is that I, I'm trying to communicate to people that, if you look at some magnificent successes years later and you try to discern. What was their reason for beginning, like you'd look at Apple and you'd say, oh, so Apple had this grand plan of improving people's creativity through computers and phones and tablets and watches and tags and Apple stores and genius bars and app stores, and you think, oh my God, to be a successful entrepreneur, we need this plan for worldwide domination. And I said that I think that great organizations start because they ask very simple questions. The very simple question at the root of Apple is. Why can't computers be smaller, cheaper, and easier to use? there must be a better way. Why can't that computer be personal and inexpensive and easy to use? And that very simple question led to Apple computer. And with the Pfizer example, another simple question is that, and this happens, maybe in labs and stuff like that, is like, we're trying to create this heart treatment drug, but everybody has better erections with it. Isn't that interesting? You know, why? What, what, why is this so interesting? Why is this so odd? And that's an interesting, simple question. it's important to ask, to have this curiosity that if you are Jane Goodall and you see chimps using. Pieces of branches to get ants to crawl on the branch to eat or something. And you say, well, I thought chimpanzees cannot use tools that only humans are smart enough to use tools. What's going on here? That's a very simple question, but that leads to remarkable results.
CODY:Hmm. So in some ways it's, it's partially to identify what were our initial assumptions and to try to look at it from a perspective of curiosity of perhaps what's here that I'm not initially seeing.
Guy:A little knowledge is a very big barrier. Basically, you need to have really really good knowledge. Or maybe even better is no knowledge whatsoever. as they say, out of the mouth, of babes come the greatest insights and truths.
CODY:Yeah. And with the world becoming so competitive now, it's harder to find your niche, but when you have knowledge in one area and then you have knowledge in a completely different area, whether, say you're a CPA, but then you like to paint on the side, there are transferable skill sets between say that, painting and being a CPA. And that's a skillset and a level of knowledge that most other CPAs are not going to experience. So perhaps there's a lesson in trying to embrace the unique things and interests that you might have because that can kind of come together to help you build something that is unique.
Guy:and you know what, you may see some connection. I mean, this is. Admittedly, this is kind of a stretch, but you may see some kind of connection in your CPA finance, accounting function that, believe it or not, you could apply to art or vice versa. Right? and that's a beautiful thing that like I see all kinds of connections in surfing to entrepreneurship. I can explain a lot of entrepreneurship with surfing metaphors, right? So surfing, a lot of times surfing, you're spent sitting in the water looking for the perfect wave. Well, a lot of times in entrepreneurship you're still sitting looking for the perfect opportunity. And then in surfing, if you see what you think is a good opportunity, you've got to turn and start paddling. Same thing in entrepreneurship. If you just sit there and you look at all these great things, but you never squeeze the trigger and actually start prototyping, you're never gonna start a company just like you'll never catch a wave. So I, think surfing has helped me understand entrepreneurship and I could make the case, entrepreneurship has helped me understand surfing and, that's just the way it is. But, you know, one more issue when, we're on this subject, which is, I caution people that just because someone is very good at one thing. Do not believe that necessarily. They are very good at something else. I think a very good example of this is of course, world class Olympic level, N-B-A-N-F-L, P-G-A-M-L-B athletes, right? So you think, oh my God, this guy was the world's greatest outfielder. He'll make a great politician and senator. Like, why? Why? What's the connection there? Why would you believe that? and so some, some great athlete will make of course a very good presidential candidate. And then you can sort of retroactively say, well, the good professional athlete had to train hard and be a team player and a leader. So, I mean, maybe you can make a case, but I. Let's face it. Many people who voting for someone famous is voting based on name recognition, not on the intellectual assessment. That skills transfer.
CODY:Yeah, but then sometimes there's that black swan unicorn, like I'm reading one of Arnold Schwarzenegger's, recent books and you can tell, I mean, he became really. a world athlete and bodybuilding and then became a great actor and then, governor of California. And whether or not you think he was a great governor, it comes across through his writing is the amount of effort and the discipline that he portrayed from everything that he did. And I think so it is possible, but that is probably a very few and far between.
Guy:Yeah, it is possible. I'm just saying that by default, don't assume that. Excellence in one category means you're excellent in everything. if someone is a world class athlete and tells you that you should treat your pancreatic cancer by taking yoga and eating turmeric, I would be a little suspicious.
CODY:another concept that you mentioned in the book is about formalizing your goals. And what I would rather a actually ask is, so I know that you originally worked with Apple, and then I believe you started a company after you left Apple. But then for the, for much of your life and career after that, you were doing, you started doing Ted Talks and you wrote so many books, you became somebody who inspires others and companies. Did you have a goal? was this a career? Like, what was the, point in which your life you were like, I want to be a motivational speaker and write books, you know, versus, writing of building a company.
Guy:like the great Steve Jobs once said, you can only connect the dots looking backwards and. I don't ever remember having a plan that said, you know, guy, you're gonna go to Stanford. You're gonna major in psychology because psychology is gonna help you become a marketer and a salesperson and evangelist. And that's going to lead to leadership positions, which will give you a great base of knowledge, which will lead to your ability to become a writer and a speaker, which will lead to your ability to get inspiration and information out of people, which will lead you to become a podcaster. If you believe for one second that I had a plan that linear and that organized. I hate to burst your bubble. It just did not happen like that. It was, I had interests and I scratched those interests and they turned into passions. And now looking backwards, I can weave a story that makes it look like I had a plan, but I had no plan. I majored in psychology because it was the easiest major. Okay, let's just be honest.
CODY:if you had, if you put one foot in front of the other, surely you had like a trajectory. It was at some point in your life you decided, you know, working for a company, or building my own company doesn't feel right. What feels and connects to my underlying, my goal, my spirit, who I am is talking to people, speaking to people, writing to people, I.
Guy:first of all, advice in this kind of area is very tricky because I may be the exception to this rule. I may not be the general rule, and. It may be just blind dumb luck that I succeeded despite making bad decisions. So it's very hard to, properly interpret one person's story. but I will tell you that I I had an open mind. you know, when I see stuff, I, can translate that into yes guy, that's useful. When I first saw a personal computer, I said, oh my God, this is so much better than an IBM Electric typewriter. And, you know, when I saw social media, I said, this is so much better than just meeting in person, or, sending email to each other privately and all that. I, I just fall in love with stuff and luckily. I fell in love with some stuff that led to success, financial, and you know, psychological success and that's my story. And if there was an overarching message, it is keep an open mind, keep growing, try lots of stuff. It's not okay to fail, but sometimes you will fail and learn from your failures and just keep moving. And one day you'll wake up and you say, huh, I got from there to here.
CODY:Yeah, it's always by looking back at our lives that we're able to see all of our accomplishments
Guy:I just hope that at that point you're intellectually honest enough to realize that you had no plan and a lot of it was just right place, right time, and luck.
CODY:one of the biggest revelations I made is as kids, we see our parents as, as all knowing and, uh, everybody, all the adults, like they know better. But then you grow up to become an adult and you realize, everybody's winging it.
Guy:We're all making it up. Yeah. We are all, we all have imposter syndrome. if you tell yourself, I do not have imposter syndrome, something is wrong with you. We all have imposter syndrome.
CODY:Yeah. it's that fake it till you make it. I've had to embody that throughout my life, and I think that's something that is, it's probably not the only option, but ultimately it's very hard to feel like you know what you're doing until you've done it.
Guy:Well, but I mean, let's, let's spend a minute on this. You know, this concept of fake it till you make it is I think vastly misinterpreted. So fake it till you make it means that when you are in circumstances that you're not sure that you can something, you just do it and pretend you know how, until you learn how and you really can do it. Okay? So, you know, if you get promoted to a position and you're not sure you can do it. Just say yes and learn like hell and do it. Okay. But unfortunately, many people have interpreted fake it until you make it to be lie, right? So the ultimate example of this is Theranos. So Theranos, they said they had a machine that could take a drop of blood and diagnose all these things, and they didn't. And maybe they had good intentions to actually do it, but basically they started lying. They said, yes it works. Here's the results. But it wasn't their machine. It wasn't working like how they said. and They probably said, wow, you know, it's okay to fake it till you make it because someday this machine will work. But that's not what fake it till you make it means fake it till you make it means that you embody confidence. Even if you're not completely confident, it does not mean you lie about the capabilities of your technology.
CODY:Hmm. And ultimately, at the end of the day, all we can do is just try to live our lives, make the best decisions that we can not get lost in all of what society tells us That, that we should value and count. Our blessings Because ultimately, it's not about how much wealth or fame we collect throughout our lives. Ultimately, at the end of the day, it's about the people and the connections and the family and, who we surround ourselves with. And I think that's a key lesson to keep in mind, is to count your blessings.
Guy:my analysis is that the first third of your life, you are underpaid. The second third of your life, you're overpaid. And the final third of your life, you pay back. That's how life works.
CODY:that's a good analogy. I like that. as we get older, we, give back. And I think that's true in a lot of means. Um,
Guy:Alrighty. I hope I help your listeners gain a little insight into making a difference and being remarkable, but, I have 170 pages for you that explains how to do it to the best of my ability.
CODY:Yes. And you have, have your website, guy kawasaki.com and so thank you for joining.
Guy:Thank you so much for having me. Okay.