​MindHack

#094 - Sönke Ahrens - AI-Proof Your Brain: Smart Notes Strategy

• Cody McLain • Episode 94

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The future of original thought is now. In an AI-driven world, how do you ensure your ideas remain uniquely yours? Dr. Sönke Ahrens, author of How to Take Smart Notes and creator of the accompanying online course How To Take Smart Notes with Obsidian, unveils the Zettelkasten method: a revolutionary "smart notes" strategy to AI-proof your brain.  

Discover how this system acts as your personal dialogue partner, transforming how you learn, think, and write. Dr. Ahrens reveals actionable insights to conquer information overload, beat writer's block, and spark groundbreaking ideas. Learn to build a robust "scaffold of understanding" for peak cognitive performance. Don't miss this essential guide to mastering external thinking. 

ℹ️ About the Guest

Dr. Sönke Ahrens, a distinguished social scientist, educator, and author of the groundbreaking bestseller, How to Take Smart Notes. His book, which introduced the powerful Zettelkasten Method of Personal Knowledge Management to over 100,000 readers worldwide, fundamentally challenges traditional views on how individuals learn, think, and write, arguing that writing is not just a way to document thoughts, but the very act of thinking itself. 

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Sonke: [00:00:00] If you think, we only think with our brains, you tend to see AI as a replacement of our our thinking process. We use AI to think for us instead, and that's obviously a risk. And if you think like that, you do that, you stop thinking for yourself. You let AI do the work. 

Cody: Mind Hack is a podcast about the psychology behind performance, behavior change, and self-op optimization.

Each episode explorers how to think clearly, work smarter and live intentionally through insightful conversations with leading entrepreneurs, scientists, and experts, and human behavior.

Hello and welcome to The Mind Hack podcast, the show where we explore the science of peak performance, mindset, and personal growth. I'm your host Cody McLain, and today I'm joined by Dr. Ske Rnz. A [00:01:00] distinguished social social scientist, educator, and author of the groundbreaking bestseller, how to Take Smart Notes.

His book, which introduced the powerful Zeto Cast Method of Personal Knowledge Management to over 100,000 readers Worldwide, has fundamentally challenged some of the traditional views on how we learn, think and Write. Dr. ARNs argues that writing is not just a way to document our thoughts. It is the act of thinking itself, a concept that has profoundly reshaped my own approach to intellectual work.

In this conversation will demystify the zeto cast and approach often described as building a second brain and explore its practical power in overcoming common intellectual roadblocks like writer's block procrastination and information overload. We'll also discuss how Dr. RN sees modern tools like obsidian and artificial intelligence fitting into the future of effective note taking and learning.[00:02:00] 

By the end of this episode, you'll walk away with clear actionable insights and relatable strategies that you can apply immediately. Whether you're looking to enhance academic performance, streamline your research process, or spark novel ideas for your next major creative project. So, without further ado, please welcome Dr. Sonke Ahrens

Sonke: Thank you Cody, for having me. 

Cody: Dr. Ahrens, welcome to the show. So your, your book, how to Take Smart Notes. It's resonated with so many people around the world. You've sold over 100,000 copies, you've translated into eight languages. Did you ever expect your book on taking notes would become so widespread?

Sonke: Um, I had two thoughts. One is hopefully I sell a few more than, uh, 10 copies. Um, I have, I had mainly my own students in mind because I couldn't find really helpful book. On [00:03:00] writing and note taking that mirrors the way I thought. We developed a thesis, so there was just a need to write that because I didn't feel comfortable with the ones that were available.

I did not expect at all that it resonated so much with people outside of academia and, um, I am very pleased how people took ideas and developed their own systems around it. So I see it less as an instruction and more as something that sparked a discussion. I am really glad, um, happening. Yeah. 

Cody: And so for those who haven't read your book, can you give us kind of an immediate idea about [00:04:00] what it's about and what kind of benefits that, say, new adopters could expect you to learn from your method?

Sonke: Yeah, I mean, there are multiple ways to describe what the set customer is all about. Um, one way is it's, um, a system to write notes that connect in a way that you can build something out of them. And where you have, as they called it, the second brain or an external brain you are in the dialogue with. And another way to describe it, and that's how I did it in the book, is, um.

The author and social scientist, Nicola Luman, I studied the most. Um, he is a system theory thinker. Um, he was incredibly productive, um, writing almost 60 books and less than 30 [00:05:00] years, hundreds of articles. And, um, whenever he wa was asked, um, how on earth he was able to be that productive, um, he referred to his cell cousin.

So obviously, uh, as someone who struggled a lot with writing, I was intrigued, uh, what this system is all about. And there is a research project still going on because it's such a vast amount of notes that needs to be digitalized and, um, put online. Um. There was very little available, uh, at that time. Um, but there are others who work with similar methods.

And so I tried to understand, um, how that really worked in a practical manner, and that [00:06:00] was fascinating to me. And, um, so I wanted to write about that because there wasn't anything available that really described the method. And because I at the same time taught a lot about, um, learning theories, I realized how much the Settle castin put modern research into practice without Lumen.

Probably being aware of that. Um, but and thirdly, it resonates with. Um, a new line of research that often goes under the label of external thinking. So the realization, how much of our environment contributes to our thinking processes and how much we can do [00:07:00] to improve our thinking by thinking a little bit more systematically about how we design our environment in which we think.

Um, so in a way it's all about the thinking environment design. And that might sound complicated, but in the end it's just writing on a daily or regular basis, small pieces. And add them to the existing pool of ideas you have. So you extend your thoughts instead of just collecting them. And that not just you to develop more complex thoughts because having those thoughts externalized allows you to build up complexity, which is [00:08:00] impossible in our tiny brain.

And it also constantly confronts you with things you have long forgotten. And that is like a built in, um, critical element to your daily writing, um, where you're being reminded of things that might be. Um, contradictory to your great idea you had in the morning. And instead of just putting it out, um, you contrast that with something you have already written down.

And these are the moments usually where something interesting habits where you have contradicting ideas and have to figure out, well, um, is one of them wrong or can I, um, combine them in, in a way? Um, all these things only happen when [00:09:00] you have a system in place where you have your thoughts in some way externalized.

And usually we do that with books and articles or that is external to our brain, but. What we then do, we usually just do in our brain. So it's like brain and the external environment and the set customer expands the personal thinking space to be able to think within that. And I think that's why Lumen was able to not only be so proficient in his writing, but also be able to develop incredibly complex thoughts and theories that are highly consistent, um, within itself.

Uh, something that, that wouldn't be possible I think, without a system like that. 

Cody: Right. So there's this o [00:10:00] other thing I'm sure you're, you're aware of called the Commonplace book. It's, it's been famous in history for, for many writers, Benjamin Franklin, uh, included is that they, they created a commonplace book where they would.

Different references, quotes, ideas that they would kind of keep with them for the rest of their lives. And that was always an important part of their writing process. Would you say that the ziel casted method is kind of like a more complex version of that, where instead of just writing ideas, you're also connecting, uh, related thoughts?

Sonke: I think it's certainly, um, fits into the same category of trying to use external means to accompany you and, um, not just write something down, put it out, and then go back to the be blank page. But the Settle cousin is certainly more geared towards continuous development of ideas [00:11:00] and maybe less of a reminder.

Um, and, um. I mean, it's grounded in academia, but seeing how much it resonated outside of academia, I think it can be seen as, um, maybe a little bit more sophisticated version of the commonplace book. But you tell me, um, you know, better, I think the, uh, distinction between these two systems. 

Cody: No, I, I, I would certainly say it's a more nuanced, complex version of a commonplace book, and yet it's also more difficult to maintain.

And that's where certain systems like obsidian and other like Rome has kind of come out in many of the past few years to try to make it easy to, uh, create these relationships between different ideas. In doing so kind of automatically, [00:12:00] but in the process, I think they also eliminate your own, uh, intentional connection between these ideas that perhaps is kind of removes some of the critical thinking behind making these connections yourself.

Uh, because I think there's this aspect of what you argue is, you say in the book, writing is not just a record of thought, that the act of thinking itself. And so you argue that this method is a way for you to, to think about these things. And it, it's, it's commonly notated that obviously thinking about something, whether you're listening to an audio book, whether you're, you're reading something, is that we, we often don't remember 95% of what we read in a book, but it's those moments when you come across an idea, you pause and you think about that thought, you think about it from a different angle.

You think about how does this apply to my life? You, you expand on that idea. Those are the types of things that we tend to remember. And so when you're taking that, that kind of, that instinctual part where you're stopping and you're [00:13:00] thinking about something and you're adding it to a system, then you can look at that and expand on that further.

And so I think that certainly, uh, writing and note taking plays an active part of thinking. Um, and so I, I think everything has its place. Um, but, um, going off of going on a tangent, uh, do you have any, uh, additional thoughts on top of that? 

Sonke: Yeah, I think you strike an important point and, um. Let me comment on the role of technology like obsidian, Rome research, et cetera.

Um, I think there is the risk that you do exactly what you just said. Um, automate the building or connection and therefore just skip the important step of thinking about what connections make most sense intellectually or by reasoning. But I think this kind of [00:14:00] technology doesn't have to, um, be used in that way.

I think that technology can, um, complement, um, our thinking very well if we are aware of the risk you mentioned, um, that we try to use it in a way that, that it skips. The thinking part. I think when you use obsidian or Rome research or log zg and the other tools out there that have the bidirectional linking feature, um, you get quickly overwhelmed with links when you automate that process or just go by association, like, um, oh, this word appears in these notes.

Uh, I link them all and I have, uh, beautiful graphs with [00:15:00] a lot of links that can work as a warning signal. Um, this overwhelming interconnectedness. Um, if you encounter that once, I think you are thrown back to, uh, the inside that any links should be deliberate. And ideally commented on. Um, so one of the main, uh, points I keep stressing when I teach the method is try to embed links to other notes in full sentences.

Try to explain the relation between two notes in a way that your future self can still understand that, um, don't try to just, um, have bullet points with, [00:16:00] um, links. They have the place as well, but the main links should be explained to yourself. And usually this is the moment where you start thinking, um, because.

Intuitively often, um, the relation between two pieces of information is obvious. Um, if you, yeah, of course this belongs together, but when you try to make it explicit, you start to struggle and that is usually the good kind of struggle. Um, first of all, you might be right, and then it's good to be able to explain it because in the end, your knowledge isn't much worth if you are not able to communicate it.

Um, if you can't tell someone else how to, things belong to each other, but most often you realize that you haven't [00:17:00] really thought through, um, how two pieces of information belong together and that you need more information to. Make the connection, um, plausible. So I think this linking, which can be done mostly automatic, uh, if you do it manually where you feel okay.

Um, it's interesting here can zoom in the most interesting parts of, of what you're doing. So I think the linking is not a support or help. I think it's often the most important part of the whole process and the most interesting. 

Cody: Right. And, and I, I would in, in a easier way of describing that, uh, I think if we look at, say if you are, um, a surgeon and then [00:18:00] perhaps on the side you're, you also like to paint.

Um, or you, you're in some other completely unrelated field, and it's often the, the people who end up in a, a multitude of fields that have interests and they're able to take those ideas and overlap them with this other, other profession. And that's often where we have innovations and we have ideas that kind of further society along because you have overlapping, uh, knowledge in different industries.

And so I think these, this idea of linking notes, it's kind of like a similar way of you're, you're creating this, this, this link between notes and thoughts that perhaps otherwise could be unrelated. It's forcing yourself to think about a, a specific idea in a different way. Instead of just looking at it in a, in a linear way, which is so often what we do, especially when we're just creating bullet points.

When [00:19:00] if, if we have highlights on a book, you know, we're, we're putting it into a specific category and then we put, you know, if it's a category on productivity, all, all of these notes might just just be in this one, one category. But there's inevitably related i philosophical ideas, industry ideas that you could think about.

And that could be what allows you to have kind of new creative thinking and to write and, and think from a different perspective than most other people would. 

Sonke: Yeah, I think the art is to, um, find the right level of abstraction, um, on a too abstract, um, level. Everything is related and if you try to find the, uh, the abstraction level, were key.

Uh, until now, unconnected pieces information can be put together. Um, you, [00:20:00] you create something new and especially when you work interdisciplinary and into very different fields like medicine and art, um, you need to go to a more abstract level, but then also to respec, um, from that level down to have a concrete example or, uh, application of that idea.

I think that's where models are extremely useful and to have their place, because models are always abstractions from reality, but they're extremely useful, um, because they're not that abstract that you can't do anything with them anymore. You can reapply them on a more concrete level. Um. Sometimes people will shy away a little bit from two abstract ideas or abstract ideas, but I think it's often [00:21:00] unavoidable to go that step, to go back, um, to a more concrete level in a different field.

Um, yeah, but that's certainly what's getting interesting. 

Cody: Yeah. And, and so you also say that notes are only as valuable as the system that they're embedded in. And so from a perspective of, of building aze casting system, I know that we, we touched on obsidian and Rome and, uh, I believe, uh, uh, lumen, you know, he, he had these index cards, right?

And so he was able to write over 60 books, uh, hundreds of articles, and he had like, I think, so 90,000 index cards. There's this very specific method of, of putting like notations in the upper right hand corner to, to link like specifically where this should go. And a lot of that is a very, uh, uh, process.

Very, it's very [00:22:00] resource intensive, right? To create a system like this. And I know, say, say Ryan Holiday, very famous, uh, author in, in stoicism realm, who was a protege of Robert Green, who wrote The 48 Laws of Power. He's mentioned his system where he, he will read a book. He, he manually highlights everything in the book and then he goes back through the book and he manually writes down every single highlight.

Then he will go through that and then process that highlight. I think perhaps that's what allows him to produce such extraordinary work and to be such a deep thinker, but also that's very resource intensive. You know, it's, it's not something that everybody has a lot of time for. So perhaps that's where these systems like Obsidian and Rome kind of come into play, where they make the process of linking ideas easier, even though it's perhaps at the risk of losing some of that internal creative thinking around linking these ideas yourself.

Which can itself spawn some, some new ideas instead of [00:23:00] just letting a system do it for you. Um, so I guess the question is kind of what is the, what is the middle ground? I suppose if you're somebody like Ryan Holiday who, you know, his, your sole job is a writer, then perhaps you have the time and the resources to be manually documenting highlights to be thinking about them and to maintain a very complex system.

Um, I'm wondering where, where do you see your students in this regard? Where do you see most people who, perhaps their entrepreneurs, perhaps their writers, perhaps their, their influencers or, or content creators, and they, they look at something like this as being beneficial to their content creation process, but they don't have all the time, you know, and don't want to ex ex exude all of their mental energy and trying to create these relationships between these different ideas.

So kind of what do you, what do you say there and what do you recommend? 

Sonke: Um, I look at it. Slightly differently. Um, I think you can set up this system on a weekend [00:24:00] and get going. You, you are still learning along the way and you have to adjust the system. And in a way it never finishes. So I'm still learning how to apply it and modify it to my needs because my thinking develops and the structure changes.

So, uh, it has an effect on the way I structure my notes, but the basic setup that allows you, whenever you have an idea to put them into a designated space where you know it's not lost, but can be used to build something bigger that doesn't need more than a weekend or extended weekend. The main difference you described, I think, uh, is in regard to what kind of input you deal with.

When Ryan [00:25:00] Holiday reads Seneca, of course, he needs more time, uh, to go through a book and ponder about sentences within the context of the text.

I like to say when you write a literature note, so the note that gives an account of the literature, um, your processing, I'm often asked, well, what's, what? What's your regular time? Um, am I taking too long? Am I going too fast through it? And the correct answer is, of course, well, it it depends on the kind of literature you are working with, the appropriate amount to spend on writing a literature note.

It's somewhere between a second and a lifetime. I mean, there are people who, who read the Bible for all their year, uh, alive and still find new things. [00:26:00] And I'm sure Ron Holiday, um, has read Zucker, um, more than once because he finds new, um, angles to it with a different life experience. Um, have these encounters with ideas where you think, yeah, yeah.

Okay, that's interesting. And a few years later, you open the book again and suddenly it hits you. Oh, now I understand. Um, with my experience now, I, I see the depth and the relevance of that. Or you read something and you grasp the idea from page one. It's actually already in the title and the rest of the book is just a variation on the same idea over and over and over again.

So you don't need to read it twice, maybe just skim through it all. Um, [00:27:00] so I think how much time you have to spend on, um, creating the system, developing it, writing your notes, connecting them, really depends on what you're dealing with. Um, there are some, some books I highlight a lot and go through twice because I feel I can't give a proper account on what's in there before I haven't read the, the whole bit.

Because some pieces of information only makes sense after you know, what's in the last chapter. And then go back to the beginning. And then there are articles, uh, like I said, where you have all the information already in the charter. 

Cody: So it's, it's possible to spend as I, I love, I love, love what you said, you know, a second to a lifetime, uh, in terms of going over a note and [00:28:00] thinking about, uh, a specific idea.

And so now we've mentioned a few times like Rome, uh, obsidian. And I believe you now teach a, a course on obsidian. But before I ask you about that, I'd love to ask you about kind of the most common methods that perhaps people of today can use, uh, or build a system like this. Think we have popular tools like, like Notion, Evernotes, uh, Google Docs.

I'm wondering is there, uh, so say besides ofid, which I suppose is probably looked at is, is like the, the one of the best versions of, of the built based specifically on the Zillow casting system. Uh, do you see the possibility of using any of these other tools like Evernotes, uh, notion of Google Docs as being able to build such a system within?

Sonke: Well, some people use them and seem to be happy with it. Um, I can't imagine myself, uh, working with [00:29:00] apps that are not designed for interconnected. But where you have to build your own little workarounds and, um, in the end, often they apply a similar system like Luman did, where you manually, um, ID, um, pieces of information and then link them manually.

I feel that distracts me from, um, the content. So I'm extremely thankful for, um, the people who developed ION and room research just to, um,

push the development of this, um, note taking apps into a new direction. Um, and I feel it. Um. It's almost like you, um, [00:30:00] you take the, um, foot from the break and, um, it's so much smoother when you can link and you have to back link and you don't have to worry about ID and stuff like that. So I feel that there was a big shift, um, from apps that were mainly designed for collecting information, storing information, um, folder based.

Um, and yeah, you can, you can certainly do something with them, but, um, I feel there was a breakthrough, uh, for me in the digital. I always struggled, um, because there are some elements of the analog working with pen and paper. I, I like so much. Um, I still miss them when I work digitally, but now with this new [00:31:00] generation of apps, I feel the advantages, um, are,

are so obvious that, um, the disadvantages of the digital, um, slightly fade in the, into the background. Um, you, I still miss the spatiality, um, the haptic of it, the, the kind of writing that's really undistracted, um, but can still do that. Um, but it's, but it's then outside of the system. Um, yeah. 

Cody: Right. And so obsidian seems like the, like the main feature.

Uh, I'm wondering if you can describe kind of your use case or, or some of the best cases you've heard from other people in terms of [00:32:00] how obsidian specifically, uh, is, is, uh, one of the best methods for, for helping them to look ideas. C can you kind of describe like the, the visual mapping feature and kind of what you think really makes Obsidian itself stand out for, for the zeto caston 

Sonke: system?

The weird thing is, I think the main reason I like obsidian is really hard to describe. It's, um, it's just the feeling of being immersed in your thoughts with it. While I used drone research for a while and I liked it, but I always felt like almost, um, distant from it, it's almost like I am outside and looking at my.

And have to apply a more, um, prefrontal cortex like, uh, [00:33:00] approach to it all, and obsidian, um, more fates into the background as a tool. And I feel much more immersed in parts. So my, my theory is it's because it allows you to use your screen better by having multiple notes open, by stacking them, by, um, going more quickly through different notes, um, and thereby having some kind of orientation.

Um, and the way I teach the set of customers obsidian very much. Tries to focus on building that kind of experience of having an orientation within your [00:34:00] notes, despite of the chances to stumbling upon something, um, to get as close as possible to the original set of customer experience with pen and paper.

And that needs some structure. That, um, took me a while to figure out. So OB seediness not a tool you can open and just use its main advantage is at the same time its biggest risk. You can. Do almost anything with it. And you can use it in all kinds of ways. And if you don't have figured out a good structure, um, you're lost.[00:35:00] 

And so what I try to, um, provide is the experience based structure that then allows you to quickly, uh, focus on your thoughts instead of thinking too much about how to set it up, how to structure it. And for some it goes a little bit against the bottle up approach of the ceto custom, where you develop structure from, uh, from the bottom up and you collect notes, see how they fit together, and then figure out, okay, what's the structure here?

Um, how do these things belong together? Because you, you already start with some kind of hierarchy top down, but it doesn't, um, hard wire anything into the system. You can always [00:36:00] change the structure when you are thinking changes, because in a way, the way we think about things is the way we structure things.

So it, it needs to change something that couldn't be done with a classical folder structure. Um, but I think it's justified because when people start with Ace, cin and obsidian, they don't start from scratch. Um, you don't have to pretend you know nothing, you don't structure your thoughts. Um, you have to build it first.

We always already have. An idea how we structure things. Um, we have different areas of interest or different areas of responsibility. We, um, have different questions. So it makes sense to start at the beginning to make this structure explicit. Uh, use it as the [00:37:00] scaffold you can then add new ideas onto and change it when it needs changing.

Um, and this structure is something that, in my opinion, um, is to some degree an alternative to the haptic orientation you have with the analog set cus in the analog set, cus you always knew. Okay. Um. My, my notes on, on writing and thinking are somewhere on the left bottom drawer. And, um, I kind of know how the notes feel because of, um, use then so often or, you know, it was a beloved bur here, you, you kind of know where the [00:38:00] things are.

Um, you don't have that in the digital form, but you have other means of orientation, uh, within obsedian. Some of them are building, but most of them you need to create yourself or use, um, a pre-configured, uh, structure. You can then tweak and adjust to your own needs. Um, I think that's, that's the challenge of these ingenious, uh, apps that they are.

So open, uh, that at the same time you need to restrict, uh, the openness again with your own ideas. Yeah. 

Cody: Yeah. I, I think one way of looking at it perhaps, is that obsidian itself provides kind of the foundation, but then you need [00:39:00] to be the architect and decide, you know, how are you going to build on that foundation?

And I know, I, I, first time I tried to use obsidian, I was completely overwhelmed and I, I was like, this is way too much for me because you have to approach it. Um, it's not, it's not like a tool like Evernote or Google Docs where everything's kind of laid out and it's like, if you, you, you know that you're gonna put a note into a folder.

Or a notebook. And that's, that's, they, they provide the structure. You know, they, they are the architects of that system. And when it comes to the, is having a Zillow cast system, whether you're using an analog or a software version, is that you are still having to develop the structure of how you are storing this information.

And now I think Obsidian and Rome, you know, they, they try to take some of that out because I think what allows them to be so popular is their kind of intuitive kind of visual linking, it's like a bidirectional linking system where, where you can create these, these links that go between your notes back and forth.

And I love the, the mind [00:40:00] mapping functionality. And I think, uh, a tool, a tool like this is probably the closest that we can get to right now of having an interior view of, of your brain. And I think that that's why it resonates so, so much with so many people because it's the, the way that the structure is oriented is closer to how we think.

Then I think any other, other method that has, you know, that we've thought of, uh, up, up till now. And so that's why I love when you say that obsidian, it feels like you're, you're viewing into your brain in a way. Um, and that's, that's if you maintain it and if you're not kind of, uh, taken aback and just decide to, to look elsewhere because you just feel so overwhelmed.

And I suppose that's kind of what your course is about, right? C can you kind of explain, explain a little bit about your, your course, uh, what you teach and who you think, uh, should consider, uh, signing up? 

Sonke: Yeah. I mean, first of all, the, I, I agree that, um, it, [00:41:00] it is the closest maybe to the way we structure internally.

So it is like a second brain, but I see it more as a dialogue partner. And that's how the course is designed to, um. Build a dialogue partner along the way. Um, and I, I like the metaphor of the dialogue partner better than the second brain metaphor, because the second brain metaphor, um, it insinuates you, you look at yourself.

But when I interact with my subtle cousin, I don't feel like I'm interacting with myself. I, I feel like I'm interacting with a different entity that challenges me with information. I, I, I don't remember and or I remember in the moment, [00:42:00] um, I'm confronted with it. But these moments of, oh, um, I think you forgot something here.

Or, um, you have written about that before and in a slightly different way. Or I'd take a literature note and, um, look up a reference and a paper and say, well, I don't understand it like that. So the authors, um, I think they got it wrong. And so yeah. So it's more like a dialogue partner. And in the course, um, I provide the structure, um, so to not have this overwhelming feeling of, or everything goes, um, but okay.

Um, here you have your daily notes section. You can use that for fleeting notes. When you have an idea that pops into your hat, just write it down. Um, you can connect it with projects or questions you already [00:43:00] tackling. Um, so it comes with, uh, the pre-configured, um, volts with folders, which are not topic folders, um, but are functional folders.

Um, it comes with a selection of tags which are useful. It comes with a selection of queries that allow you to present yourself open loops, open questions in the morning when you open obsidian and, you know, oh, I can continue working there. Um, but I don't think that any of that would be much of, much use if you don't get the explanation, um, why the folders are there, why the tags are there, what the function is, how it interconnects.

So I hope with the course to explain, um. [00:44:00] How you can quickly build a habit, a routine of daily writing into this structure, and then adjust it to your needs. Um, and it seems like most people just go with the structure as it is and are able to use it for academic writing, but also for, um, more looking things up, um, keeping track of projects, um, and having information readily available.

Um, yeah, so I think it's a lot about, um, skipping this long process of figuring stuff out, um, trying to. Um, [00:45:00] conserve the advantages of the original setter custom in digital form, um, that the students or users don't have to go through this long iteration process of, um, developing a structure that works not just in the beginning but in the long term.

So I have thousands of notes. It's pretty complex and some, some things I only realized after I went through this threshold of 10 or 20,000 individual notes where you realize, oh, you, you, you need to deal with this complexity in a way, um, that. Would've been so much easier if I knew that in the [00:46:00] beginning.

Um, so I think that's, that's what I hope to achieve with, with this, um, with this course.

Cody: Right. And I think you've said before that the moment you stop sharing notes as just storage and start seeing them as dialogue, your, your thinking shifts. And I think that's, that's the powerful component of, uh, having a system like this. It's not necessarily something for everybody. It's not necessarily something that's easy to, to set up, um, or even maintain because it requires constant effort.

You have to have a habit of regularly creating notes that are not just notes in terms of quantity, but in, in terms of quality and having some kind of sufficient method or routine where you are frequently using the system. That's the only way that your brain is going to trust this [00:47:00] system, to maintain, uh, a certain set of outside knowledge that you will be more likely to reference.

Because I've made the mistake of having, say, an Evernote system that I tried to build on Tia, Tiago, fortes para method. We have projects, areas, resources, archives, and then I end up just forgetting that it's there. And my first default, if I need information on a subject, was to go to Google, or now it's just to go and create like a, a deep research query inside of chat.

G PT and I, I haven't necessarily created a habit of, let me look at my notes first and see what I've read previously, what thoughts I've created. And it's so easy to just kind of have your thinking shipped to Exter externally looking for it instead of intrinsically seeing what you already have, because there's a good chance that you're gonna have some golden nuggets in there that you haven't thought of before.

Sonke: I totally agree. It's not for everyone. [00:48:00] Um, I think anyone who expect to be as proficient as lumen and suddenly start, uh, creating an output of a few articles a month, um, will disappointed. Um, because you still need to read, think, write, and have the discipline to, um, have a routine of, um, practicing all these things.

If you think and take thinking seriously if you read things, not just for the joy of reading. With the intention of using the information and using the ideas and challenges, um, uh, [00:49:00] book or article provides to challenge your own thinking, your way of, um, looking at the world, if, if that is your goal, regardless of the output you are aiming for.

I think it's a method that can work for all kinds of different people. Uh, you don't have to be an academic, you don't have to, um, have the aim of writing. I think the common advantage is that it allows you to challenge your own thinking. And it's so much easier to change your thinking when you have it externalized first.

When you look at your thoughts in writing, it's so, so much easier to detect the flaws in that, or contradictions between [00:50:00] two pieces of, uh, information you have written down. You, you just detect that when you look at it, but it's if it's only in your brain, if you read something and you think, yeah, okay, that's, that's interesting.

And then you read the next bit and you think, yeah, okay. That convinced me as well. You don't even realize that these two things don't hit together. So that, that is what it makes it interesting to me. I think that's what makes it relevant for writers, because you want to write something original. You need to.

Come up with something new. Interesting. A new angle. You need to, um, let ideas, um, be enriched through your own experience. Just taking something from chat g PT and putting it on paper, um, [00:51:00] people will see that it is not enriched by your experience. There is a difference between here is a piece of information, I know this is true and that is true, and being able to express the relevance of something and that meets a human intervention.

And the Ceto Carin expands this personal space and uses the advantage of externalization to modify, to develop. And in, in way to mature your own thinking. Um, so I agree it's not for everyone, but I also think it's, it doesn't need to be this academic tool that needs attention all the time for me, actually.

Um, that might surprise you. There are long [00:52:00] streak where I don't open my settle custody at all, um, because I'm in the middle of finishing the online course and have, um, organizational things to do. I need to call people. I, I go on podcast. Um, so it's on the back burner. I, I'm, I didn't start this day with opening mat cousin and I actually, I did because I, for preparation of the podcast, I, I, I, of course looked into it.

Um, but. But there are long periods where I don't look at it, and at the same time, whenever I have a sudden idea and I think that's relevant, I, I wouldn't know where to put it, if not into my tele customer. Um, if I just put it somewhere on paper, it would be lost. Um, it can be an in-between [00:53:00] step, but I need to know it goes there.

But because that's the only place where it can make an actual difference. Um, so it allows me to pick up, um, where I left it, even if I left it a couple of weeks ago. Um, I don't know if routine is overrated. Um, to me having a daily routine is often something I. I, I really like the idea of, but in reality, it, it, it often doesn't work.

I'm, I'm, I'm on the train and can't have only my morning routine at my desk. Sometimes, uh, it's too noisy at home and I'm at the office. Um, so in, in reality in my life, at least, I, I don't have such a daily routine, uh, even though it, it always sounds great. [00:54:00] Um, but I'm glad I have a system which provides me with kind of structure that allows me to pick up, um, where I left it.

Um, continue to work with a project and sometimes leave a project for a while, develop another one further because I'm easily bored and, um, wanna switch, which is. Maybe a reason a lot of people with A DHD, um, seem to like the system a lot. Um, but yeah, that's, um, the long answer to, um, to, to the problem of, um, who's it for and use it not for.

Cody: Yeah. And, and perhaps having a routine isn't necessary as long as you have the, the instinct to open up the app and say, add the relevant information whenever you [00:55:00] come across the idea with a note or the highlight, this quote, and that you think is relevant to your system. So it's the act of maintaining the system.

Then utilizing it when you need to in relation to the work that you're trying to accomplish. And I think that's the only thing that matters, as long as you're not just consistently adding information to it and then not referencing it or not using it, because then you're just creating a, a bloated system that you're unlikely to necessarily use.

But, but we've mentioned chat GPT now a few times, and now it's become very widespread, different forms of ai, Gemini, Claude, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the matter in terms of, do you think it could take over manual notetaking? Do you think that could become obsolete? Have you seen your students kind of using ai and do you think it's something that, that could replace the Z system or do you think it might complement it?

Sonke: At the moment we treat chat chip d or uh, ai, um, [00:56:00] in a way that's too external and too internal at the same time. So I think our thinking is still very much tied to what philosophers call the representational area, where we think of a brain, um, as an entity that is, um, separate from the world. It's like a processor that, uh, deals with the information coming in and then information goes out again.

And only recently we start understanding the impact, a different kind of thinking about thinking can have on practical matters. So if we think about thinking as something that happens [00:57:00] externally as well as internally that we really think. Within our environment with our tools, we, I think, shift the whole discussion.

Um, if you think, we only think with our brains, um, you tend to see AI as a replacement of our, our thinking. We, um, use AI to think for us instead. And that's obviously a risk. And if you think like that, you do that, you stop thinking for yourself. You let AI do the work.

But if you think that thinking happens in an external space and you want to keep [00:58:00] the. Critical approach to the information you're dealing with. If you want to keep the experience enriched, thinking that makes any output, uh, interesting for other humans. If you want to develop your own thinking skills, your own thinking abilities, then it becomes all about the creation of an environment that is personal but also external.

'cause only in an external space you can build up complexity, you can combine more than a few things. Um, so AI makes it, in my opinion, obvious that we need to create external personal thinking [00:59:00] spaces. Even more than that, I hope that we shift the discussion, um, more towards the, the question of how can we curate common spaces to think together in like a third place between the big information out there that can be, um, quickly searched and presented by AI and our own little tiny minds, uh, that have to deal with that.

I think these third spaces will be where we make the dis, how we curate them, how we build them, how we think about them will be the space. Will we, the question. [01:00:00] On how we deal with ar like with every other kind of information overload, um, we face at the moment and the question, well, will it replace our thinking or will it, um, um, increase our ability?

It really depends on how we build these third spaces. That, that, that's my point of view.

Cody: Perhaps a a a way of viewing it is that AI itself kinda streamlines research. You know, we could ask it any questions we want. Uh, we can do a deep research inquiry and then have all of the, the current information on a specific subject, subject, whether or not it's a hundred percent accurate, and it kind of varies.

But AI will never replace deep personal thought. Now we can use it as an external reference to bounce our ideas off. [01:01:00] But more often than not, the way that you phrase your question to an ai, it's going to intuit your underlying thinking, your underlying reasoning, the underlying perspective of what you want.

And that's now why we have situations where we have people who are going into delusional fantasies because their AI believes it's God and they are, it's worshiper and open AI itself has had to employ now psychologists, uh, psychotherapists to try to understand why is this happening? Because it seems that if you have a certain level of, of emotional or uh, uh, kind of a, a disorder of sorts, a mental health issue that you could be subject to what ai uh, the delusions that AI itself can go down.

And so. If it can't replace deep personal thought, that is more or less kind of critical thinking [01:02:00] skills. So I think the next question to ask is, well, why are critical thinking skills important if we're in an era with AI that can just answer all of our questions and do all of our thinking? And I think my, I would default to now this idea of, of prompt engineering, or it's more recently been referred to now as context engineering, because there's a lot more than just trying to figure out how you create the best prompts.

Because now we have AI agents that are doing complex workflows and you really have to be able to think about how is this workflow going to to work? And if you're employed at a job, and especially now millennials or Gen Zs, especially the Gen Z generation, are having a very tough time graduating from college and getting a job because all of the low level jobs are now easily being able to be taken over by ai.

If you have the ability to do context engineering, to think about why is, how do I make AI [01:03:00] work best in this use case? Or if you have, uh, trauma or mental health issues and you're wanting to use Chad GPT as a therapist, how do I best phrase my conversation in a way where it's not going to lead me down a delusional fantasy?

Because it's how you talk to an ai, and I'm sure we've all used AI in a way where you ask it something and it gives you a, a response, but then you've, but then you realize, wait, it doesn't have this additional context. It's missing something, or I don't feel like it's quite right. And then you respond to it and you say, oh, what about this?

And then it's like, oh, yes sir, you are brilliant. Y this is, and it completely changes its answer. And so I think all of this comes back down to what I'm saying is that Encompass is that a AI can help us in our, our journey for accomplishing, for building, for, for even thinking. I think it's a tool just like everything else.

And the moment you start to see AI as something that is [01:04:00] going to replace your need for thinking, for writing, for creative thought, then you're going down a dark path because that could just lead to a delusional fantasy where you're just kind of not creating anything new and, uh, who knows where that might end up.

So I think now more than ever, we need to emphasize the importance of critical thinking because that is how you're going to leverage AI to allow you to get a job, to allow you to get ahead of everybody else who is not able to leverage the ability to think properly and then apply that to ai. 

Sonke: Hmm. 

Cody: So that's, that's my, my 2 cents.

Sonke: Yeah. I, I totally agree that the way we use it is, is, is crucial and that there is a way to use it. Like a machine that replaces your thinking, like, like a bicycle you drive to work with instead of walking. So you can [01:05:00] just roll and don't have to put any effort into it, but you can use the bicycle as well to increase your range, to discover new places or to train your muscles and um, to enhance what you have.

Um, so certainly it's about how to use it. Um, so there will be certainly curated environments, um, as you described them, some that are fit for mental health counseling and some that are fit for, um, research and pushing research, you know, that. To change your way of thinking about the world requires more than one piece of information.

But you need to take a lot of pieces of information into account. You need some kind of, [01:06:00] some form of complexity. Um, it's not mind blowing. It's not, oh, well my worldview changed in an instant. It's more mundane, but probably that is the kind of buffer we need to, um, deal with the information coming in.

Cody: When I say critical thinking, I suppose it's like, uh, the, the ability to stop and pause Yeah. In question. Yeah. A particular thought. Yeah, right. Instead of just accepting what external information says or what somebody else or something says about that. And we, we tend now to default to, uh, just asking AI for everything and then just accepting outright what it says without thinking about what it's actually saying.

Just accepting that information. And, you know, if we're in a world where we're just accepting information from an ai, it might not always be correct. And it's been shown. It's definitely [01:07:00] not always correct. Um, and so that can meet us down like long paths. But I, I suppose a, a, a perspective of utilizing AI in relation to Zeto Castin is that perhaps it's, it can be good for summarizing.

I don't know. I, I assume that obsidian hasn't implemented any AI functionality, but I assume if they did, it would be helpful because it's like everything else where you can build out, say like, like the Google, uh, forgot the, the Google podcast, I'm forgetting the, the name of that, where you can upload PDFs of information and then generate a podcast that will kind of summarize the information in, uh, of what you've up told it to, to specify.

So perhaps I think there could be a benefit in utilizing AI for that. But overall it still is that there's a risk of. Being over reliant on AI as a means of, of externalizing your thinking because we, it's still today, just as prevalent many years after [01:08:00] it became popular that, uh, the ability to create a a good prompt is directly proportional to the quality of the response you're going to get.

And if you have a Zeto casta network or a system where you are able to see all of these ideas and thoughts and intercon the interconnectedness of them, it's going to give you a different perspective when you ask that question to ai, that is going to generate a, a proportionally much better response than if you had not had a system in which you were able to see all of the connectedness between the various thoughts and ideas.

Sonke: The idea of critical thinking as stopping, reflecting, and taking the time to look at something. And it is connected to something that is often overlooked. Um, reflection is not just about [01:09:00] judging information coming in. It's also about challenging the way we look at the world and to change and develop, mature in our way of looking at the world and enrich it with experience.

So being able to realize that the prompt you use is probably not the best one, um, but that you have to add context to it to get a better response, um, is only possible if something on your side, on the personal side has developed over time. Um, maybe we look too much at. Judging information coming in and too little about developing our ability to deal with the information.

Um, [01:10:00] so not just about not trusting what's coming in, but also being very, that oneself needs, um, maybe a little bit more development to handle, uh, the information and being open to have your mind changed by it. 

Cody: Yeah. And, and an area in, in, in which we, we, in, in, in an area in which AI is a part of our debut lives, I think it's now important, more important than ever to have a system where you're able to collect information.

Because that will be useful in helping set you apart from everybody else who's able to use this tool by using it in a much more generic capacity without the level of insights that you might otherwise gain by being able to maintain your own personal note taking system. I think we've seen people like, like Ryan Holiday, David ll, Tiago Forte, all very prominent figures in the self-help space who've [01:11:00] either developed a, a, a variety of books or systems based on the Xeno casting system.

So I think it, it's something that it as if people who have have used it, they, they've cited, you know, it helps them to think more clearly. It helps with, uh, idea retention, uh, and you're able to just get overall a kind of more creative insights from, uh, areas of work in which you might not be able to, to create or gain these insights if you had not had such a system.

So I think it's something that everybody, whether you're a business consultant or a writer or a student, uh, everybody should really consider having, um, to, to some extent, because that's gonna be one of the small things that will help set you apart going to a world in which AI is just prevalent everywhere we go.

Sonke: Yeah, the, the, the question of how can you distinguish yourself if everyone can, um, access the, the huge [01:12:00] pool of information out there, um, certainly code for a curated personal thinking space. Um, yeah, I think you're right there. 

Cody: And so I, I, I know that you're working on a new book and that I think you started to scale back in kind of individual coaching.

I'm wondering if you can offer any kind of insight into your, your next project. 

Sonke: Um, it's still in, in development. Uh, I kind of pick up on my academic work, um, which is a little bit more about epistemology, but I hope to make a contribution to what almost seems like an epistemic crisis at the moment. Um.

Dealing with, um, a lot of this information and how to be able to, um, deal with that or, um, set [01:13:00] yourself up to, uh, problematic, um, uh, information environment. And I think it will have a lot to do with curating these kinds of shared spaces and how to think about shared thinking spaces. Um, yeah, I would like to make a contribution, um, to that solution.

Um, that might take a little bit more time.

Cody: And, and I, I can only hope that teaching kind of note taking as like a score is a, is a core skill alongside writing math. Could hopefully become part of our future and education. I can, we can only dream. 'cause I think that would help, uh, massively for our ability to, to think, to reflect the question. Um, and especially in a world in which, you know, an answer is just a little chat conversation away.

Um, [01:14:00] you know, so I think that's a, that's a good, good spot to end. Um, wondering if you have any kind of practical advice for anybody listening that a, that perhaps these conversations pique their interest in the zeto casting system, where they might go, uh, to kind of learn more about this. 

Sonke: Well, what I offer, you can find on tech smart notes.com, um, but there is a lot out there, especially the Ian community is so lively and helpful and friendly and supportive.

I think you find a lot of information and, um, support there. Um, and I wouldn't underestimate the power of the metaphor of external thinking. Just thinking differently about thinking makes a huge difference in my opinion. Um, taking more [01:15:00] seriously, note taking and what it can do to support your, uh, ideas and thought development and not just thinking about thinking as something that goes on in your brain just as a metaphor.

I think it's, it's, can be extremely useful. That, that, that's my two things. 

Cody: Hmm. Well, uh, thank you so much, Dr. Sanka ARNs, for joining us and sharing all of this, this practical advice. And if today's conversation sparked your interest, definitely check out his book, how to Take Smart Notes, or visit his website.

Take smart notes.com for more insights and resources. And of course, thank you for tuning to the Mind Hack podcast. I'm Cody McLean. I'll catch you in the next episode.

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