#099 - Dr. Carey Heller - The Productivity Gap: Go from Knowing to Doing

Ever feel stuck in the gap between a great idea and actually getting it done? Licensed psychologist and executive function coach Dr. Carey Heller joins us to reveal how to master your workflow by spotting executive dysfunction and installing the right systems.  

Dr. Heller shares unique, actionable strategies, from using AI to break down overwhelming projects to leveraging physical movement for better focus and why the phrase "action precedes motivation" is the ultimate mindset shift. We also explore the importance of active recovery over passive rest and how to create lasting boundaries between your work and personal life.  

This episode is a practical guide for turning your intentions into repeatable, lasting habits.

ℹ️ About the Guest

Dr. Carey Heller is a licensed psychologist and co-founder of Heller Psychology Group, based in Bethesda, Maryland, specializing in ADHD and executive function challenges in children, adolescents, and adults. Dr. Heller also runs an executive functioning boot camp program and can see clients virtually in 42 states. Dr Heller really focuses on helping people to be more efficient, better organized, productive, and happier as well as less stressed. In addition to Dr. Heller’s work with his practice, he volunteers his time in a variety of ways. Specifically, he serves as the Montgomery County, MD CHADD chapter coordinator and is on the National CHADD board. He also supervises graduate students conducting testing at The George Washington University. Furthermore, Dr. Heller loves to write, has published a few books, and numerous articles, especially in Attention Magazine and Washington Parent Magazine.

• Websites:
  • Heller Psychology Group  
  • Dr. Carey Heller's personal site   
• Instagram:
  • @hellerpsych  
  • @CareyHellerPsyD  

👨‍💻 People & Other Mentions

• David Allen  
• Getting Things Done (The GTD system) by David Allen 
• Huberman
• Tiago Forte  
• PARA method by Tiago Forte

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction & Executive Dysfunction
• 5:00 ADHD Evaluation & Diagnosis
• 10:00 Time Management & Tools
• 15:00 Calendar & Task Management Systems
• 20:00 AI & Productivity Tools
• 25:00 Work-Rest Boundaries
• 30:00 Rest & Recovery Strategies
• 35:00 Planning & Review Methods
• 40:00 Task Initiation & Writing
• 45:00 Reset & Recovery Techniques
• 50:00 Screen Management & Digital Balance
• 55:00 Implementation & Closing Thoughts

Transcript

Carey Heller: [00:00:00] You have to understand that it's not just about the functional aspect, but you know, it impacts someone's sense of self and who they are as a person. And you know, it can certainly weigh on someone after a while. Like especially you've had all these repeated challenges of, you know, not doing well with things because of these issues.

And so by unpacking that, you know, through therapy, that's a really good starting point to then figure out how do you make it better? Because there's obviously lots of practical strategies you can do, but you also have to address the psychological piece as well. It's not just about, you know, simple strategies like calendar or task list or writing stuff down.

You have to also address the psychological piece too. 

Cody: Mind Hack is a podcast about the psychology behind performance, behavior change, and self optimization. Each episode explores how to think clearly, work smarter and live intentionally through insightful conversations with leading entrepreneurs, scientists, and experts, and human behavior.

Hello and welcome to The Mind Hack podcast, the show where we explore performance, mindset, and personal growth. I'm your host, Cody McClain. [00:01:00] Today we're talking about the gap between knowing what to do and actually doing it. If you juggle big goals and still find yourself stuck on small starts, this episode will feel like a reset.

Our guest today is Dr. Carey Heller, a licensed psychologist in Maryland and Washington DC. He is also the founder of the Heller Psychology Group and serves as a chair of the editorial advisory Board for Chad, which is largely considered to be one of the nation's leading nonprofit groups dedicated to improving the lives of millions of Americans living with A DHD.

In this episode, we will unpack how to spot executive dysfunction early and install the right systems. So focus, follow through, and calm, become repeatable habits. If you've ever stared at your task list and felt your brain slide off the page. You're [00:02:00] in the right place. So please welcome Dr. Carey Heller.

Dr. Heller, welcome to the show. 

Carey Heller: Thanks a lot, uh, appreciate you having me here. I'm excited to, to chat about all this today. 

Cody: Yeah, and so executive dysfunction is something that I think everybody has to some extent and, and kind of on a spectrum to some, some extent. And obviously those with A DHD probably have it worse.

And so I would love to really understand what executive dysfunction is and kind of what is it when someone comes to you feeling like they're stuck, kind of how do you map out dysfunction and kind of where do you start exactly. 

Carey Heller: Sure. So executive function challenges or, you know, people also refer to as executive function is the idea that you have a hard time with.

Um, just basically executive function is an umbrella term, so it represents planning, organizing, task initiation, basically the things you would use to, to solve a task. Or complete a problem or do something like, [00:03:00] basically you need them pretty much to really do anything in life. Um, but part of the issue with it is that as far as like how to, like if someone's coming to you and we're trying to figure out what's going on, I need to better understand what's actually causing the executive function issues.

Because it, there's many, I mean, so certainly A DHD is definitely a very common cause for executive function issues, but it's not the only, cause if, if someone's anxious or nervous, they may have a hard time focusing, and in turn they may have a hard time getting started. They may, you know, worry about having, you know, this needs to be perfect and so they can't start, you could have someone who's really depressed and so they have a hard time getting themselves to do things because they're depressed.

You could have someone that has OCD and has a hard time, you know, shifting attention and then getting stuff done because of all the other stuff going on in their head. So the, the point is there's, I mean, almost any mental health disorder can have, IM an impact executive functioning. Other things also lack of sleep.

So the, the point is that. In, in order, like the first step in trying to figure out how to make it better is to try to better understand what's actually causing the issues with [00:04:00] executive functioning in the first place. 

Cody: Hmm. And so there, we've all heard stories of say adults who, who go from school into middle age and then find out all of a sudden that they have a DHD and maybe they get on medication, maybe it, it changes their, their lives to some extent.

And so what is it, what kind of, what signs suggest? Because I think all of us at one point or another have questioned do we have a DHD? So kind of what signs do would to you suggest kind of to somebody needs a formal A DHD valuation versus say they just need to work on their skills or their structure?

Carey Heller: Sure. I mean, the first thing I would say is when in doubt it's always good to talk to a profession at minimum just, you know, contacting someone and you know, explaining, you know, here's what's going on. Do you think I need evaluation based list? 'cause you don't want sort of just. Say to yourself, oh, let me take a guess and decide if I get the evaluation or not.

Because you know, professional's gonna be able to give you that insight even before you do the evaluation if they think it makes [00:05:00] sense. But in general, like things I would say they're important to really look for are, are you having trouble with things on a consistent basis? Is it, you know, if it's some small period of time and otherwise things are fine and they've been fine for a long time, certainly it could be a sign of something.

But you know, A DHD, technically the symptoms are supposed to have sort of been there since childhood. So some people can compensate very well and just don't notice it as much in childhood has never picked up on. But the point is, you know, if you're in your forties or fifties and suddenly you're having these issues that you never had before.

I mean, theory could be undiagnosed, a h, adhd, but you know, there's obviously lots of other things it could be as well. So you always wanna just look at, are these long-term issues you've sort of dealt with and compensated, or are they sort of, is, are they sort of new? 

Cody: Hmm. And, and often now there's traits that are like, you know, if you're, if you feel like you're lazy or un disciplined, those can often be associated with a DHD.

But of course you can have them or, or feel that way even without it. But I'm sure people come to you where they, they, they have this [00:06:00] internal sense of self where they, they lack the self-esteem. They feel like they can just never get anything done. They're constantly procrastinating and you can see that they're internally labeling themselves as this lazy person.

How do you go about helping them to reframe their, their narrative? 

Carey Heller: Hmm. Well, and that's a good question. I think some of it is trying to understand the psychological piece of it, of, you know, how, how do the, you know, whether you call it a CG or just the symptoms of inattention, trouble getting stuff done, executive function challenges, how do they manifest as as part, or how have they become part of someone's personality?

Because I think that's just a cr, a crucial thing is that you have to understand that it's not just about the functional aspect, but you know, it impacts someone's sense of self and who they are as a person. And you know, it can certainly weigh on someone after a while. Like especially if you've had all these repeated challenges of, you know, not doing well with things because of these issues.

And so by unpacking that, you know, through therapy, that's a really good starting point to then figure out how do you make it better? Because there's [00:07:00] obviously lots of practical strategies you can do, but you also have to address the psychological piece as well. It's not just about, you know, simple strategies like calendar or task list or writing stuff down.

You have to also address the psychological piece too, 

Cody: right? And, and on the, on the aspect of A DHD, I think a lot of people look at say, uh, A DHD, especially A DHD medication, which is somewhat debated, uh, amongst culture. I know that we have science and neuroscience that that says that, you know, those with A DHD have low dopamine levels and that it increases that, so that increases their motivation, their ability to follow through on tasks.

I'm, I'm curious in your experience, uh, I know that you're, you're not somebody who prescribes medication, but, uh, what kind of percentage of people would you say who have a formal diagnosis? Do you find that they, they need a DHD medication as a means of survival for the rest of their lives? Or do you find that maybe they start and then maybe they're able to find other ways to kind of [00:08:00] compensate for that executive dysfunction and then live without that medication?

Carey Heller: Sure. I mean, I think it really depends on the person. I think there's some people, and also depends where someone is in life. You know, if, for example, if someone has a really hard time with school. And they're able to, you know, and sort of, you know, maybe they need medication through school and then, you know, 'cause you usually get more, more, more choices to some degree in a job once you're done with school.

And so if you pick a job that really fits well with a HD symptoms, it may be that you don't necessarily, you know, you're able to function well 'cause you're enjoying what you're doing and you know, the tasks don't really sort of fit into things that are especially challenging and keep you interested. So maybe that you can function okay without medication.

Um, so there's that part of it. There's also, people do develop, you know, various coping strategies to be able to compensate. And for some people, you know, they can't certainly go off medication for others. It really is sort of a long-term thing. But again, it just, it really depends. I think the idea is it's always good to look at all the different sort of treatment options and what, and it's often a combination of things like, 'cause even if you do medication, it's not gonna magically give you the executive function skills to be [00:09:00] organized.

It may make it easier to use strategies, but you still have to have the strategies. 

Cody: Right. Right. Yeah. And I think that's something that often people miss. That they think, oh, I'm just gonna take this medication. It's gonna solve all of these problems. And it doesn't necessarily do any of that. It can give, it can be a tool, but you have to know how to use it in the right context.

Uh, and I think that's where we go into lots of different modalities and methodologies. Part of what we're here to discuss, I know that some aspects of like A-A-D-H-D or, or, or just somebody who has executive dysfunction, uh, might be even time blindness, where they, they forget time or that they, they're not able to set clear deadlines.

So I know maybe they could set a timer or set blocks of time. Uh, do you have any like kind of general strategies that you can kind of think of and specifically about helping us to overcome our, our time management? Just to start with? 

Carey Heller: Sure. Um, I mean, I think you've already touched on, you know, the idea of some of it is that basically you wanna figure out what, where are [00:10:00] the challenges?

So if you're someone that sort of zones out and just loses track of time, you know, having a timer or something that kind of gets your attention at different time intervals can be a good starting point because then you're less likely to miss meetings or other things if you know, you know, I, I can focus on whatever I need to do 'cause I know this alarm's gonna pop up and remind me to stop whatever I'm doing to go to the next thing.

So that's part of it. Planning stuff out can be really important because it creates a time anchor. 'cause especially if you have a job where you could have four or five hours at a time where you're just working on tasks and there's no meetings or anything to attend, it's very easy to sort of not work as efficiently and, you know, get sidetracked.

So having like actual like meetings or a plan of where you're gonna work on at, you know, each point during the day can definitely help keep someone sort of better organized. You know, in terms of like making estimations, like over time, learning how to make good estimations for how long things take can be very helpful.

And one of the best ways to actually do that is to actually track your time. For example, there's a program called Toggle, where you can basically type in a task, hit the start and stop button, and then basically you can then look at your schedule and it shows you, you know, each task you did and [00:11:00] how long it took.

Because if you do the same types of tasks over and over again, they're probably gonna take roughest amount of time. So if you know how long they take and you've actually tracked it, you can then use that to more effectively plan time estimations. Um, there's also a program called Goblin Tools where, um, basically use, I guess along the lines of AI where basically, um, you can put in like a general task and it'll break it down into parts for you and it'll give you like general estimates of how long each part should take.

Obviously it's very general because it's, you know, not catered to your usual needs, but it creates a really good starting point to figure out for certain. Like you could put in cleaning your room, clean the kitchen, um, I dunno, packing for a trip, like whatever it is, there's, you know, you can sort of create, you know, if it's general enough you can put it in and it'll break down different steps.

And there's this a cool thing where it has a certain number of peppers on it that dictate how detour oriented it is as far as breaking it down. I mean, you can break down almost. The most minute thing to begin with and even more minute steps. 

Cody: Hmm. 

Carey Heller: So it's definitely an interesting tool. It can definitely be helpful for, for a lot of people.

Cody: I also love the idea of [00:12:00] body doubling. 'cause that that tends to lower the amount of energy it takes to start something. Since most of the, of the procrastination, most of the, the, the barrier that we encounter when trying to do something, especially something that we don't wanna do, is going to be upfront.

And once you're able to spend maybe just 10, 15 minutes on something, you start to get into a flow and you find that it's actually easier than you thought it would be. And one of the, the apps that I love is focusmate.com. Uh, there's also an alternative called Cave Day. And so these are sessions where you can schedule a remote session with somebody around the world and you just kind of share your video and you just like work quietly on whatever you're doing.

And I find it is amazing, um, especially if you're somebody who works at home. Um, and so there's a, a range of tools that you can help with this kind of issues about focusing or prioritizing. I wanna get into that, and I'd love if you could walk us through kind of a, what's, what does a clean setup that can help somebody turn kind of chaos into kind of some kind of singular form of [00:13:00] productivity, I guess, uh, looking at it from, uh, like how do you kind of capture information?

How do you triage, uh, how, how would you use a calendar or task list? So, so kind of give me the, the whole shebang. 

Carey Heller: Alright. 

Cody: Yeah. 

Carey Heller: And I think when it comes down to it, I mean, I would say that like, the number one rule for all of this is write stuff down. Don't try to rely too much on your memory because the problem is, even if you have a good memory, you know, it gets very cluttered if you're trying to keep track of so much, so many things.

And you may not remember everything you do right in that moment. So the idea is to like visually see everything in front of you, whether it's a task or an event. Just the first thing, the first rule is really write it, write everything down as far as how to approach it. My, my strong suggestion would be.

Ta, you know, things you need to do, go into a task list and actual events. Go into a calendar, because here, here, here's some, uh, something to think about. So let's say you add all of your tasks to the calendar. It may be great, you may get an alarm that pops up at a certain time and do it, but what happens if you don't pay attention to your phone or your computer and you [00:14:00] miss that task, and let's say the next day pops up, unless you go back and look at your calendar for the prior day, you're never gonna see that task again.

But if it's on a task list, it's gonna keep popping up as overdue. So you're gonna continue to see it until you do something with it. And also, if you're planning out tasks, by seeing it in a task list, you can actually see everything, like all your tasks together, how they connect up, if it's like breaking a bigger task into parts of sub tasks.

But if they're scheduled just in a calendar by day, you're never, you're not gonna see the whole picture together. But, you know, in addition to that, obviously just because tasks are on a list doesn't mean they're gonna get done. So my suggestion would be, put tasks in a task list, assign a set day and time to those tasks.

But make it realistic. Don't just put a bunch of tasks in it and assign a random date and time. Look at your, look at your calendar. So look, use the calendar for actual events. Look at when are you actually free to do these tasks. And then assign time to each task in the task list. And what you could do is either block out time for like bigger tasks in the calendar as well, so it holds that time.

Or put like a category. So for example, I don't know, admin time [00:15:00] paying bills. And then you could have it itemized in the task list at the same time of, you know, these are the civic bills I need to pay. But the point is that you need both a calendar and task list to really plan effectively because you're not gonna know what you need to do if you just look at your events and you're not gonna know when you have time to do the task, if you just look at your task list.

Cody: Right, right. Uh, I, I know another great tool I love is, is Sensorama. Uh, although it's like $20 a month or so, but it kind of combines this idea of a calendar and a task list. 'cause I think if you just have a, a task list. Uh, that it can be very overwhelming and you might end up just putting all your tasks in there, but then you never know where to start.

And if you're somebody who has this kind of executive dysfunction, you don't have the ability to assign that kind of emotional salience to know kind of what is the most important thing you should be doing on. And if you do pick something, you might kind of second guess yourself. Something I've experienced where I just don't even know if I, if what I'm working on right now is the most important thing.

So, uh, on one hand you might have your task list, [00:16:00] but then on the other hand, there's an important aspect of having a calendar because there is this idea and aspect of time blocking, right. And that's become very popular recently. And I think there's a lot of advocates who really advocate for, for time blocking, where you can have a task list, but they advocate that you should pull those tasks into your calendar and kind of plan your whole day so that you know exactly what you're working on.

The problem for me, when I've tried that. Is some that part of the day might come up. Maybe I'm like low energy and I just don't feel like doing that thing that I had scheduled for myself. And so then I feel like the whole system kind of comes crashing down because I can never really feel like I can actually follow through if I try to plan out my whole day I'm winning.

Kind of what thoughts you have around this. 

Carey Heller: So, yeah, absolutely. And just one other thing. Yeah. I think SAMA is a great program and one thing that's great about it also is it teaches people how to plan for themselves. So, you know, I work with some people where they'll use some, some long term, but others will use it, you know, for a few weeks to just train themselves.

Then you can sort of do a lot of the same stuff with dragging and dropping the tasks, you know, with other programs you know out that don't have all the, the planning prompts, um, when you [00:17:00] learn to do it yourself. But, um, to an, to answer your question about like what do you do when you plan stuff out? The, the, the biggest thing is you have to have flexibility to plan the problem.

And, and this is where, you know, I see this a lot where a lot of people think, oh, I, I can never plan effectively because something's gonna come up. I'm not gonna feel like doing this and then my whole plan shot. So why bother planning? So the idea is the plan really should be a good structure for what you want to do and need to do with the idea that you have to have flexibility built in.

There are gonna be times where things take longer than you think. There are gonna be times you get tired, things interrupt you. So the idea is to basically have your plan, but also like you continually adjusted as you go. So let's say, you know, low energy, you don't feel like doing something if it's not something that's time sensitive and doesn't really matter if you're actually do it that day or not make an actual pin.

You know, look at, you know, what do you feel like doing in that moment that you could get done? And then put that task in that time and then schedule that, that other task you couldn't get done to a different time that's likely to work where you think you are likely to feel in the, in the, in the mode.

And, you know, other factors are work to be able to get done then. Mm-hmm. Like, it's sort of like idea of like, if you [00:18:00] think about a, like an electronic calendar, the idea of like draw, drag, dragging and dropping tasks, you can sort of, you know, move them around. The idea is they ultimately have to get done at some point and, but when they're not, when's not enough time sensitive, you know, if there's an intentionality to actually moving them.

That can be important. The thing is not to just randomly say, oh, I don't feel do this today. I'll just move it tomorrow. 'cause you keep doing that without even really thought of when could I actually get it done. Then you keep pushing tasks off, off for a very long time. 

Cody: Right, right. Uh, and then sometimes I know different to do, to do programs.

I know right now I'm using one called Tick Tick. I like how it has a lot of functionality built into it where I can actually create a timer so I can log my time or I can do a, a Pomodoro and do a countdown on a specific task if I'm not really feeling it. Um, it also has habit tracking, but it can be also overwhelming.

But then on one hand, one thing I don't like is that you can set a due date for a task, but then say if I'm planning out my entire week, it might be able to set, uh, a random date in the future of [00:19:00] like, okay, I'll just do this, this quick thing on this date and that date comes and maybe I don't end up doing it.

So then you lose trust with your system. Then it makes it kind of intermixed because you might end up having like a project or, or a report and you absolutely have to get it done on Friday. So if you're setting random due dates for tasks intermixed with actual things that need to have, get done on a specific date, it can be hard to kind of trust that kind of system.

And I know like, say Todoist is a separate program that you can actually set a start date and a due date. So in that case, you can still get tasks to show up in your today tab if you have a start date. But then it's going to list differently dates that actually have a due date so that you're able to, to kind of see that difference.

But then I get stuck in this idea of I like, I like this term called shiny new toy syndrome because I'm constantly looking at these different apps and I see, ooh, this has this, this has a, has a [00:20:00] due date and a start date functionality. Oh, this will solve that problem and then I move all my tasks over to this problem or, or to this new solution.

I still have some of the same dysfunction that I was having previously. So I think it's clear that, uh, it's not just myself. It's a habit that a lot of us, I think get stuck in where we see something new and shiny and we think, oh, this new program's gonna solve our problems, and at the end of the end of the day it doesn't.

So I'm just curious, do you have any thoughts on that? 

Carey Heller: Yeah, I mean, I think the experience that you're sharing, I think is, is certainly quite common. I see that a lot in the idea that, first of all, when you're picking a a task list to use, you don't wanna just pick one 'cause oh, someone says it's good or looks good.

You want to take a step back for some thinking about what are your actual needs for the task list. You know, do you like color coding? Do you need sub tasks? Do you need one that has a start and an end time? Like to look at like what are the different things that you actually want and need in a program?

And then from there, search and see which program may make sense. So I think that's a, you know, a starting point. You know, in some cases, you know, you can sort of test out a program a little bit before you sort of go all [00:21:00] in on just to get a feel for the functionality. Some programs, you can transfer the task fairly easily.

Like some of them, if they connect 'em to the Reminders app, you can import the Reminders app into, you know, a couple different task list apps. But the other thing also is sometimes starting over has its benefits too because it forces you to really look at what tasks do you actually need and which ones are sit or, you know, overdue or really don't even make sense to have in there in the first place.

You just keep passing along. Um, but one thing is, just to go back to that you mentioned around Tic tic, and again, I think T tick's a great program. It's one I use quite, quite a bit with clients and you know, I use myself a little bit for certain things, but, um, one thing that can be very helpful in to figure out is this is, so my strong recommendation is when you have ACT tasks that have actual due dates, put the actual due date in the task list.

Don't put in a different ta a different sort of due date for the actual task. But what you can do to avoid confusion around the actual date versus when you to work on it is use the actual task for the real due date. Create a subtask with an interim due date for yourself. Because then basically if the subtask have your own due dates.

And the regular [00:22:00] tasks have actual due dates, then that's an easier way to differentiate what's a real due date versus what's your own, basically, like I would set the, I would set the due date for a subtask as the time you're gonna work on it.

Cody: Uh, that, that, that's, that's certainly, I agree. That's one strategy, um, where you'll, you'll see the tasks show up sooner, and you give your time ahead of time to see, uh, trying to accomplish say, small parts of that task since you often don't want to, you know, assume. Because the other issue is that sometimes we'll insert an item into our to-do list that's like, finish this project and it's like, it's like a 20 hour project.

Right. And you're, you're putting that next to. Take the dog to the vet, you know, and there's a two completely separate tasks that have two way different time commitments. And I think we often don't take the time to use a system like, you know, there's, there's smart, which is like specific, measurable, accurate, um, et cetera.

[00:23:00] That, that allows us to kind of set guidelines in terms of how are we creating this task? Because other things that come up, like say we procrastinate on something and there's, there's a myriad of reasons why we might procrastinate on something. One of them being we haven't clearly defined the task, you know, haven't defined, uh, how are we going to, to measure our, our progress against that task?

And we don't break things down into smaller bits. Um, and so, um, what, what thoughts do you have on that? Kind of, like, what kind of guidelines do you give about helping to minimize this? Uh, the, the cognitive dissonance, uh, associated with doing say large tasks and little small things. 

Carey Heller: Sure. Um, so I mean, I think your point about breaking it down to very concrete steps and like having a very concrete task is important because you're right, if you just say finished project, that's very open-ended.

But in, even at, even if someone in their mind sort of has a sense of, oh, this is what I should do during that time, like when they plan out, they may not necessarily feel that same way when they actually go to do it. But if the, you know, [00:24:00] task or subtask is very actionable and it's very clear, I dunno, write the introduction to this project, then it's gonna be easier for them, someone to act on it because it, they, they don't have to think as much in the moment of what do I actually do?

It's sort of, it's laid out more in front, in front of them right there for them. 

Cody: Right. And I think another thing that I've, I've found really helpful is I'll have like a running chat conversation with Chad, GPT and some of these programs. Now I know Todoist is actually working on, on a beta version where they're integrating AI into the program.

With tick, tick, I actually have a, uh, an agent, uh, like an API connected or what, what is it called? An MCP. I have an MCP server between Tick, tick and Claude, so that I'm able to speak to AI and it's able to grab all my task lists over and actually have like a two-way sync. So I'm also able to make changes to it.

But one thing I, I find helpful is that say you have this big project and you can just tell an ai, Hey, I have this big project, this is the project. Can you help me break it down into smaller bits? And of course it does an [00:25:00] amazing job at helping you to, to say, here are the subtasks that you should create, and if it's due by this date, here are the the times that you should set.

So here are the due dates of these subtasks that you should be setting. And so I think there's, through the power of ai and the magic of AI, of course, is that we can help to organize ourselves. And I think it's an amazing tool for somebody with. Any level of executive dysfunction that the, the closer and the more often you, you were able to use AI to kind of be that, that mental assistant to your clutter.

You're going to just excel in so many more ways and I think you thought previously were possible. 

Carey Heller: Yeah, no, I agree. And I think with ai, I think there's a lot you can do with it. Um, and again, I think some of it is either knowing what program to pick or what prompts to use. Um, 'cause certainly, I mean, any AI program, you know, if you have the right prompts, you, you know, it'll break stuff down for you.

Um, there's some that are definitely a little more focused on, like, on this, like, there's one actually I'd created called a HG Assist that basically it, it focuses, [00:26:00] it's like main focus is actually on, basically break on basically planning out tasks. Just 'cause I found that sometimes if people don't really have a good sense of the prompts to start, it's harder to, and then they spend a lot of time fiddling with it rather than actually doing a quick planning to get the stuff done.

Cody: Yeah. And then there's, uh, something else I just recently did. There is a, there's a guy that built out a really solid prompt and he has it freely available and it's, his website is build your ai coach.com. And it's, uh, it's a really, uh, amazing kind of prompt that also prompts you to answer questions like answering what are your values?

What, what are signs of burnout? What are the, the main focus areas that you, that you really aspire to accomplish? Who are the people that, that you rely on? And it really helps you to collect all of this, all of this information, and, and has this really, uh, this prompt that's kind of this warming, um, and caring AI [00:27:00] coach that you can just use in a, in a running chat conversation on Claude or Chat GPT or Gemini.

And it's able to kind of help you prioritize and tell you what should you be focusing on. Based on the values and all the things going on around in your life. So I found that that absolutely a hundred percent free, um, to be, uh, to be helpful in my life. I'm wondering how have you been able to use AI with yourself or with your clients to kind of help them navigate this?

Carey Heller: Sure. I mean, use it in a couple different ways. I mean, again, it depends what the needs are. I think certainly for planning out tasks, um, using, you know, basically like chat GBT or the program I had created, you know, works well for like planning out tasks or for students homework assignments, just to sort of create a simple plan of here's what I'm gonna do when, 'cause it basically prompts you to, you know, like if you just put in the task 'cause then ask you, you know, how long are they gonna take?

What time do you available? 'cause it basically they're then answer. If you don't put all this stuff in the start, it asks for these information. So it gets you, it trains you to think, oh, I actually need to figure out this stuff for myself, for, you know. So [00:28:00] over time you can learn to do more of the planning yourself without even needing AI quite as much for some of that.

But you know, it also can really save time so you can use it, you know, help draft emails. Or you know, you know, a lot of people may spend a lot of time thinking, how should I write, explain what I'm trying to say. So you put in a couple sort of bullet points and then, you know, AI can kind of output a general email and you can make some tweaks.

But, so I think it can be used to sort of save time quite a bit. Um, sometimes if you get, like, I mean, I'll even use sometimes use with clients where if we're thinking about, you know, what could we do to improve the evening routine and, you know, the person has absolutely no idea, just can't think of anything in the moment to basically, you know, we can put it into, you know, an AI program and just, you know, do screen share and we just look at it and then we look at all these options they give us and, and then we go through and see, you know, does this one look appealing?

What about this one? Because sometimes just can you, you can use it to get you thinking and then obviously take it on your own from there. But just if you're not even sure where to start with some stuff, it can be really helpful. 

Cody: Right. I, I'm, I'm wondering about routine. [00:29:00] I know that everybody has different workflows.

Everybody has different life circumstances, whether you're in school, whether you're in a job at an office, or you're a remote contractor. But we all have routine, you know, we're humans. We, we live on routine and doing things on a repeatable basis. Some of the things and the routines and habits we build aren't so great for us, and it's particularly important around our work routine.

Right. Um, I know that there's, uh, uh, there's common ways to help yourself focus, help get yourself into the, the, the mind space. Just like how, uh, people and sports players have like a, a little, some sometimes weird or a little routine that they do before they go out and play, and it helps them get into the right mindset.

What kinds of routines or things do you find help your, your clients? 

Carey Heller: Yeah, I mean, routines can definitely be really helpful. And so I think the idea is to figure out, based on what you're trying to do. What might be a good, you know, routine, like something sort of super simple that you [00:30:00] can do before you get started.

So maybe it's the idea, I don't know, like if you're getting sitting down in the morning to start working, then maybe you basically, you know, have a routine of opening up your computer, you know, looking at your calendar, looking at your task list. Maybe you spend 20 minutes responding to emails. But the idea then that once the 20 minutes is over, then you get to whatever is already pre-planned out or, you know, maybe you go for a walk in, in the morning before you start working, you know, and kind of have the morning routine of, you know, getting up, maybe have a cup of coffee, workout, go for a walk, but like, you know, whatever works for person.

Just having that same routine often helps get people moving. 

Cody: Right. And I, I also know, I mean, Huberman even said even having your phone in the room when you're working. Has, has a noticeable impact, uh, from a scientific measurements standpoint that it can actually impair your ability to focus, knowing even your phone is in the room, even if it's folded upside down or away from you.

So there's, there's things like that that can [00:31:00] obviously impair motivation and then even notifications. I think that we have this age where, you know, there's this hustle culture and there's this aspect of being busy and pec especially I think with COVID, after everybody started to work from home, they didn't go to the office, so they had to, to kind of peer, like at least show that they were working because your boss might think that you're not working.

And so it's maybe it's constantly checking email, it's constantly looking at Slack or other messaging programs and responding to people quickly. But that kind of takes you out of that deep flow, that deep connection to be able to really like focus on whatever it is you're trying to work on. They've even shown that a notification, uh, or you know, is singing up, sending a, a message that it takes on average about 20 minutes to really fully focus back onto the subject that you were trying to focus on.

So what thoughts do you have around, uh, communication messaging and how to balance that out with actually accomplishing stuff? And 

Carey Heller: it is a really good point that you've brought up and definitely [00:32:00] could be a huge source of distraction because it's not just the actual time you're spending, spending looking and responding, but mentally to get back into whatever you're doing before.

I mean, obviously depends on your job, what your, the requirements are, but, you know, I would say basically when you can, you know, maybe you check email and then you take, you know, 20 or 30 minutes or more, you basically close out the email program, any other, you know, messaging programs, focus on whatever like the main task is and then take a break and, and go back to email and slack and everything else because the constant in and out definitely makes it harder to focus.

And you're also probably not gonna be quite as productive in what, whatever the main task is anyway. Right? 'cause even if you look at something like, let's say you look at email and don't respond right away, it's still in your head. You're still like, part of your mind is still thinking about, oh, I just saw that email from so and so.

I need to think about, what am I gonna say back? And so that's going through your head while you're trying to focus on whatever the main task is in front of you. So basically, you know, think about it like if you've ever sort of worked on like a holiday when there's like very little email, other things, people are posts are not constantly con, not constantly contacting you.

And think about how that may [00:33:00] feel in terms of, or like, I don't know, it's a random day in the summer if it's super light. But the idea of like thinking about what it feels like that, imagine if you could kind of create that, that feeling like on other days normally.

Cody: Yeah. I think, uh, one last thing on this, on this subject is one method that I think, so I, I previously interviewed David Allen on this podcast of course, who was very famous with his getting things done, the GTD system, uh, and having ways to, to pull out tasks on your head and writing them down. Then more importantly, I think he kind of popularized the idea of like a weekly review, right?

Where you're able to go through your inbox, you should clear your inbox, you should, you should tie to your desk, you should choose the top three things or so things that you're gonna work on in the next week. Um, what kinds of of process or recommendations do you give in terms of how to go and regularly review the things that you're working on?

Because if you don't, then I think you were just kind of scrambling and [00:34:00] picking day to day, oh, what am I gonna work on? Right. And it's probably not gonna go out as, uh, as well as you had hoped. 

Carey Heller: Right. I mean, I think some of it also is the mindset, the idea that if you have a, like within reason, having a mindset of I can always do better with this, so how can I improve?

Because if someone's going terribly, you're probably gonna think, oh, I need to address this. But if it's going decently, you might not really like take that step back and think, how can I make things better? And so, you know, having the ability to continually review systems that you're using to look at, is my task list system working effectively?

Is my calendar working effectively? Is my online scheduling working well enough? Like, you know, sort of looking at like, what are all these sort of things, systems you use and are, is there room for improvement? And then from there, figuring out what makes sense to, to improve on. I think having like simple, you know, and again, the hard part is you can't do everything.

Like, you know, if you say, like, thinking about this podcast, if you were try to try to take every single strategy we've talked about today and try to implement it, you're probably gonna implement very little of anything because it's probably too much at once to implement. So picking a couple of things as like your primary things to try to implement as a [00:35:00] starting point is good.

And again, you can do other things also, but if you have like the primary focus is I need to, I need to really ensure I work on, let's say these three things. And you know, there's other stuff. I'll try to if I can, but really it's the three things because basically you get those down and then you can move, move on to and add three new things in.

Cody: All right. So kind of moving to task initiation and follow through, which is really arguably like the most difficult thing for somebody with any kind of executive dysfunction. I think many people know what to do and they still can't start. So kind of what's your go-to protocol for, for turning this kind of intention, this desire to start into an action, into an action and kind of how to keep that momentum going?

Carey Heller: Sure. I mean, so I think planning can be a good starting point. Obviously a task is not gonna get done because you planned it out, but you know, if you, if you have a clear plan of what you should be doing in the moment, that's a good starting point. And from there to look at, but also thinking about, you know, have you planned it out effectively as far as like thinking about what is likely [00:36:00] that I'm actually going to be willing or feel like doing this task in the moment when I've scheduled it.

But aside from that, other things that can be helpful are, so with a HD in particular, a lot of, you know, a lot of it has to do with this sense of self-stimulation that you're not stim sufficiently stimulated to be able to be as focused as would be ideal on a task if it's not that interesting. But, um, one thing you can do is you can actually add, you know, some sort of physical movement in while you're, while you're, let's say, working.

Basically between like, so for example, um, if you have flexibility, you know, if you work at home or in an office setting, you could have like a little desk bike, you know, like, or a, like they're like these big, this big and you can basically pedal while you're working or you know, if you have a sit stand desk, you can use a balance board or there's this cool thing called a whirly board you can kind of balance on.

But the idea are basically by getting a little bit of movement that's sort of mindless, you can actually trick your mind into thinking you're more interested in something than you are. And so that in itself can also make it easier to get started on things that are hard to do. Mm-hmm. So that, you know that also, oh sorry, go ahead.

Cody: No, no, I was just adding that. I also find that having a treadmill desk helps me. Uh, I know some [00:37:00] people have different mixed results with that. Um, but I find that getting the blood flowing is that it kind of helps me to be more focused and I think it. It resonates with, say you might go to the gym and some people seem to spend their whole day like alternating between working out and then their laptop at the gym.

And I think there's something to that, like getting the heart pumping, it kind of helps to, to speed things up and you're able to find focus easier since you have a little bit more Endor endorphins. 

Carey Heller: Yeah, no, that's definitely true and I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah, I actually, I have a, a treadmill under my desk too.

I basically often rotate throughout the day between the treadmill, um, a desk elliptical, and then standing with a balance board or the whirly board. I find just kind of the, the, the variability throughout the, or also sometimes based on tasks like, so for example, I'm not gonna do the treadmill while, while I'm meeting with clients, but you know, when I'm responding to email or if I'm on a Zoom call where I don't have to be that active, you know, also I use the treadmill, but then, you know, pedaling is very discreet, so I can do that during, you know, almost anything else that I'm doing or, you know, depending on what I'm doing.

I can also stand up on the balance board. So it's nice to just have that variety of physical [00:38:00] movement throughout the day. Mm-hmm. 

Cody: And I think it's, it's important to remember, which is really the hardest thing sometimes, is that, um, action precedes motivation, right? That you're never really gonna feel motivated to do something that perhaps you don't really want to do.

And often the things we need to do are things that we don't really want to do. And I, I heard this interesting thing from a friend that's in relation to, um, the, the Silver Mind and drugs is that I think drugs, uh, say even a DHD drugs, they tend to make it easier to start the thing, but in some cases they can make it difficult to kind of stay focused on that thing.

And when you're, you're not doing any, you're, you're not using any kind of ex exogenous substance to help you try, help yourself try to work. It's kind of the opposite where you end up having, it's harder to get yourself to start the thing, but then it can be easier to maintain a sense of flow and focus work on that task.

Often the [00:39:00] most difficult part is just getting started. So what kind of recommendations do you have for people who are really just dreading something entirely and they just don't want to do it so bad? Um, but, you know, we often have, everybody shares this experience where you, you absolutely hate the idea of doing something.

You do it and then say it literally took you two minutes and you were procrastinating on it for weeks. So what, what thoughts do you have on that? 

Carey Heller: Um, so there are a couple things. One, I mean, the point that you made about how people often after think, oh, this wasn't the bad, this is super fast. Sometimes, like, especially if you're someone that constantly thinks about a task, oh, I don't wanna do this.

Like, think about the, I mean, even just sometimes reminding yourself of the fact that. You know, the, the second, you know, if I actually, so if I start doing it, I, I don't have to keep thinking about it. 'cause otherwise it's gonna annoy me. I'm gonna keep thinking about it. Imagine like all the time and mental energy that goes into thinking about dreading this task versus just getting it done and that sense of satisfaction when it's done.

So for some people that can be moved. I mean, it is sort of a little out there, but something I've on occasion suggested to, to clients is the idea of, [00:40:00] you know, especially ones that I'm staying of super late doing work and then regret it. You know, video record yourself at the end of the night when you've regretted how late you've stayed up and how bad you feel.

And then earlier in the day when you're starting to think, oh, I'll push this off to later, play back that recording. And it's kind of your future level reminding you of what, what it's like, you know, when you, when you act, when you regretted what you were doing. And for some people that can create an extra motivation to start earlier or to do the tasks.

They don't have to sort of have that negative experience later. 

Cody: Right. I, I also find two other kind of helpful habits. When it comes to writing, there's, you know, it's, it's, it really, like, it's, it's hard to run into somebody who ever says, like, really, no writer ever says that they enjoy the process of writing.

They enjoy the process of having written. And often in the past when I would go and try to write something, I would just feel like, Ugh, I don't want to write this. But then that's on top of this feeling of, oh, it needs to be really good. It needs to be perfect. Right? And there's that [00:41:00] aspect of perfectionism.

And so one of the habits that I was able to, to use to help myself get this started, get this process started was by telling myself just to write whatever comes outta my head and to do no editing, don't, don't backspace, even if I make typos and stuff, just to kind of brain dump in a way. To just say to myself ahead of time that I'm not gonna use this.

Just, just kind of put that out there. And that really lowers this, this internal guard about making something perfect because it's just getting started, right? Even if it turns out to be a pile of crap, more often than not, just being able to spend a few minutes getting started, something, there's gonna be a little idea that pops up, Ooh, that's interesting.

And then you go down this path, and then you go down that path. And that's really where that kind of, that, that reoccurring, that motivation kind of can spark from. Um, do you have any additional, uh, methods or thoughts? 

Carey Heller: Yeah, I mean, I think the idea of just being able to, to stop, you know, to [00:42:00] stop working or to stop having to focus on, oh, I just need to get this done.

And the idea of, you know, getting ready to say, I'm just gonna, you know, set timer and start and see what pops up. So the idea of like, basically, because some people's, like, part of their hesitancy in getting started, let's say on the writing task is an example you mentioned is that they feel like, oh, I'm not gonna organize this well enough, or it's not gonna be perfect.

The idea of just saying, I'm gonna set time for 10 minutes and I'm gonna write whatever comes to mind, regardless of how ridiculous it may sound. You basically use that time and kind of gets things flowing a lot more and then you can go back and reorganize it later. 

Cody: Right? Yeah, and I think having that, that timer, that countdown timer, that can give yourself some kind of relief because not only is it, they say breaking up something into a smaller thing, but say even if the idea of setting a 10 minute timer seems too daunting, then well set it to eight minutes or set it to five minutes.

And I think the key is to not allow yourself to do anything else. That is really the key in my thought, in my opinion, that you can set a timer for as little as you feel like you, you [00:43:00] have to, and just to get started does, does five minutes of working on this task feel doable? And you don't, also don't have to force yourself to do the work, but the only alternative is for that five minutes, you can't do anything else.

I've, I've literally found that strategy to be one of the most helpful things. If I'm just feeling completely low, low energy, I just don't feel like doing the thing is just setting a timer and knowing that after that, after that timer's over, I can do whatever else I want afterwards. But for that timer countdown, I can't do anything else.

So I don't have to write, I don't have to to respond to this thing, but I'm just gonna sit here and stare at my screen. And more often than not, just like the studies where they put people in a room where they couldn't do anything, but they could shock themselves. And most people choose to shock themselves if they don't have anything else to do because they're bored.

That's how painful boredom is, that more often than not, you're gonna get yourself started on that task ahead of you.[00:44:00] 

Carey Heller: Yeah, I mean, I think the idea, and again, you know, with boredom, I think it also comes down to. Someone, you know, if their mind wanders and they can entertain themselves with always going on their mind, some people are gonna get, you know, lost in their own daydreaming. Whereas others are gonna be so bored that they're gonna, you know, want some sort of stimulation that externally if they can't do it internally.

Cody: Right, right. And so, uh, another aspect to focus and task completion is kind of having emotional regulation. And so sometimes the, the, our nervous system kind of runs hot. Maybe the, the plan that we created kind of falls apart. So do you have any kind of like rapid, uh, downshift or, or way that people can kind of regulate themselves so that they can kind of pick up like the next step with a clear head?

Carey Heller: Yeah, I mean, I think there are a couple of things. So one would be, you know, doing like a simple like meditation or mindfulness activity I, using like the Calm or Headspace app. Just, you know, doing like a quick, like two or three minute. Or whether it's actual [00:45:00] meditation or you know, deep breathing, something that's a signal, I'm gonna do this.

Uh, you know, I recognize myself like getting revved up or getting anxious or getting stressed and I'm gonna take this opportunity to do a mental reset. So, you know, the deep breathing or meditation can be really good. Um, saying I'm gonna take a quick walk around the block or around the office parking lot and then come back.

Just, you know, something like where it's a very planned, you know, planned break, you know, being intentional with what you're doing. Or maybe I'm gonna close my eyes for a minute, set a timer and play calming music. Or use an eye ma like a heated eye mask, like for a couple minutes. Like figure out like what is your sort of reset, what re what could you do to reset but have like a clear plan of this is what I'm gonna do and then I'm gonna get back to whatever I was doing.

Cody: Yeah. I, I think that's an important thing that's not often talked about because doing any kind of work is, can be stressful, right? And that stress has a tendency to build up until you feel symptoms of burnout. And burnout is a place nobody wants to be in yet. With [00:46:00] society and culture the way it has been, it's been increasing in levels that we haven't seen for, for centuries, honestly.

And so being able to understand whether something is stressing you out and being able to choose to focus, even if you have to view it from like this productive mindset of which is also, it's, it's a whole nother rabbit hole. And even though it's not necessarily healthy, even if you, if, if you're resting, but you might justify resting because it's going to help you be more productive.

But even if that's the case, being able to recognize that you're, you're kind of feeling a little bit anxious to be able to, to, to walk away for, for a sec, to go take a walk or things I like to do is I, I have, I like to do wim h breathing sometimes, or I might do box breathing if I wanna calm my nervous system down.

Being able to find strategies that work for you, that allow you to separate yourself from the work, kind of create natural divides between different parts of the day so that you're not carrying that stress with [00:47:00] you for the rest of the of the day are incredibly important and really things that aren't often talked about.

So being able to find the thing that works for you. Super, super important. Um, uh, on that note, I think another aspect that's kind of not really looked at is kind of having like a wind down routine. I know, um, a famous author, he would, I'm just forgetting his name, but he would have this, this, this line that he says at the end of his workday is like, uh, something like work shut down, complete.

He, he says this, this weird phrase out loud as a means of telling his brain, okay, the work part of the day is over. I'm going to focus on my family. I'm going to focus on winding down. So having that kind of routine, even if you're somebody who works from home, I think is also important. So any, any advice that you might give to people who especially work from home or students working at, at home as well?

Carey Heller: Yeah, I mean, I think trying to create as much of a boundaries as you can. So whether it's you have, you know, if you have the luxury of having enough space to kind of have a workspace [00:48:00] and just, just doing work there. And the idea is when you're sitting there, you're doing work, but when you're not, you're sort of in your personal life, you know, that that can be one, one way of doing it.

You know, having, you know, having set work times. And again, it may not always be I'm, you know, done with work for the day and I'm gonna take the rest of the day off. But, you know, people do differently. Some people say, I'm gonna take a break and spend, I don't know, from, I don't know, five to eight with my family, and then I'm gonna go back and, you know, respond to emails for 30 minutes.

Dig it out from the evening, you know, but having gotten that time with family, so there's different ways to do it. It doesn't have to all be, you know, the entire workday all at once. And then your personal time, like people, you know, you can space it out sometimes too, you know, based on your job and what makes sense.

Cody: And also screens are a huge distraction. We, we often use our phones as a means, as like a numbing tool, right? So we might be stressed from something from work and you would instinctively grab your phone and start like just flipping through videos and social media and you find that [00:49:00] you don't really give yourself a proper break.

You're just kind of using your phone for that quick dopamine hit. And the unfortunate thing is when you do that, when you get that cheap dopamine, you're actually wrecking your own dopamine system and it actually makes work harder. So it actually makes it more difficult for you to find any intrinsic interest.

The work that actually is meaningful. So I think it's important to be able to regulate yourself on that front, which I think is frankly a losing battle, especially with Gen Z nowadays. So what kind of screen habits that you like, advice do you give to people? Any kind of apps or, or methods that you, that you recommend?

Carey Heller: Yeah, I mean, I think sort of, you know, it depends if, if people have a real hard time putting you down the phone and are constantly on apps, you know, you can certainly set, you know, you can use, you know, if you have the ability to, you know, set, you know, screen time limits or at least recognition of it. You know, if you have an iPhone for example, or there's an app called Freedom that's really good where you can basically schedule [00:50:00] downtime from certain websites on the computer or certain apps on your phone.

And so basically it gives you time where you can't really access certain ones. So if you, and especially if you said it automatically, then you know that's a good time. Like, for example, of preventing yourself from playing on certain apps when you should be going to bed.

Cody: You know, I've never actually met anybody who. Has has downloaded freedom. Who actually uses it? Uh, it seems to be one of those tools that if you set a block, if you block, okay, no internet. Now that seems to be one of the most difficult thing for people to contend with is not, is having something that actually blocks your internet or blocks those apps that you find comforting.

And at one point during something that might be super stressful, you're just gonna uninstall it or you're just not gonna use it. Um, personally I found, um, something that is a little bit less of a block to be useful. There's like a, a free app called Jomo, JOMO. And so something that [00:51:00] that works for me is that I'm able to set a, a limit so that before I open up that social media app, I actually have to open up Jomo and it has a countdown.

And the first countdown is just a five second countdown and I can unlock it for up to 15 minutes. The second time I go to unlock it, it's gonna be a 15 second countdown, and then it's gonna be a 32nd countdown. So the actual countdown builds, as you know, the more times in the day that I actually use it.

But that countdown gives me the opportunity to decide in that moment, what am I trying to use this app for? Is it just to feel, is it, am I, am I stressed? Do I really need to use it right now? Am I just popping it up outta habit, you know, while in the grocery line? And then I'm able to put it away and decide, you know what, I don't actually need it, but knowing that if I just wait those few more seconds is enough for me to keep the app enabled and for me to not uninstall it.

And so I think having something like that where you're not creating this, this 100% barrier, [00:52:00] that you're still able to access it, but you're just, you know, it's like putting the co cookies on, on the, uh, the on the upper cabinet where you have to go grab the stool, right? You're putting barriers between you and this bad thing.

For me, I found that to be a very helpful, uh, method. 

Carey Heller: No, I think that sounds good. And again, I think everyone's different. So it's always good to, you know, for everyone listening out there to remember that, you know, no two people are exactly alike. So there's a variety of strategies you can try, but you have to figure out what works for you, what work one, what, what one that what may work for one person isn't necessarily gonna work, work for you or vice versa.

So it's, it's important to sort of figure out your own individual comprehensive system that will work for you. 

Cody: Mm-hmm. And when we're not using apps to distract ourselves, think the important underlooked aspect of any level of consistent productivity and and mental wellbeing is rest. Right. But rest can also feel guilty.

Right. We might [00:53:00] feel like we're resting too much. We're in a school or you're in a, in a round of, of incubators with other startup founders, you know, we've kind of had this culture of hustle and you have to work hard and, and just work until you're dead. And so how do you kind of coach this mindset and what methods or, or suggestions do you have for somebody to help them not only reframe rest, but to actually have true rest?

Carey Heller: Well, I think some of it is, you know, first of all, finding activities you like to do outside of work that are meaningful to you. Because obviously there are periods of time where you truly wanna like physically rest and not do a huge amount. But also sometimes when you find, you know, hobbies or activities that aren't work related that are fun that, you know, you feel sort of motivated to do, that creates a, you know, certainly different stuff in your brain, but it, but it can sort of be cut very motivating to do it.

And so finding those kinds of activities also then become a draw away from work to have more time to really rest in a sense. You know, for some people it's something as simple as, [00:54:00] you know, doing Sudoku. Or crossword puzzles, you know, or for others it may be, you know, working out or, you know, going for a walk.

But sort of finding those activities for you that you find sort of meaningful and helpful. And those can be a big draw away from this, the, you know, from sort of working too much or from other distractions. 

Cody: Yeah. And they've actually measured rest in the brain with EEG machines. And I, I loosely recall that the aspect of, say, watching Netflix, it has a, a a a approximately, it, it adds about 20 minutes of rest.

So once you go past 20 minutes of Netflix, you, the, the rest that you, that you get from that kind of just drops off a cliff. Yet they've shown that there's a difference between this kinda rest that is like on the couch watching TV and this kind of active recovery rest where maybe you're going out, you're playing a, a game of pickleball with friends, right?

[00:55:00] Uh, or you, you have some meetup group that you go to later on. Um, and so in these cases it might actually use energy, right? You know, we don't typically think of these things as rest, but they have actually scientifically shown that these kinds of things kind of recuperate us way more than just sitting on the couch, just kind of mindlessly looking at some kind of content.

So I think to your point, having some method of recuperation that is outside of work is a super important thing for us all to consider. 

Carey Heller: Yeah, no, absolutely.

Cody: Another thing that that is, uh, pretty common nowadays is, is urge surfing, right? Where we kind of crave for, for distraction. We kind of go into the, this, this mindless loop of you. You're just stuck on TikTok, right? I'm sure you have a lot of clients who do that. Um, any and, and that, that probably affects sleep as well.

Um, [00:56:00] what kind of recommendations, uh, suggestions do you give to clients, um, around making sure that they're kind of regulating their own urges and moderating that and also balancing out and having important good sleep? 

Carey Heller: Sure. So, I mean, one thing I could be very helpful is to sort of try to give yourself the habit of setting a timer before you even go on to one of the apps like TikTok or Instagram.

Um, I mean some of them have, you know, they don't advertise very much if you go into the setting. Some of them have sort of things which I think may be required to by law, where you can actually, in the saying, set a timer where it pops up after you've been on a for a certain period of time. It's funny 'cause I remember when the, the thing first came out, I think I was playing around with it with Instagram and I think I said it for five minutes.

Um, and then, I don't know, at some point I got some alert saying that they've done away with the five minute option, and I think I'd have like, the minimum was like 20 or something, something higher than five. But, but anyway, the point is that you can either do it through the app itself or like through like the alarm clock app or another one.

But the idea is, and you [00:57:00] know, or even like put the ins, like Instagram or TikTok app, you know, in a folder next to the timer C is when you go to find the app, the timer's right there. And so if you set the timer before you start, or like the you own alarm, it gets your attention to because, because the problem is apps, a lot of times you can't see the time so you sort of lose track of things, but sort of getting the alarm it gets you, you know, especially something you have to really turn off.

It gets you to look, oh wait, I've actually been on this for 20 minutes. I should probably go do something else now.

Cody: And so you work with, a lot of, you work with kids, parents, adults, uh, are there any systems or philosophies that kind of translate across all of these settings that can help support a kind of wholesome, uh, focus instead of kind of consistently having to fight it? 

Carey Heller: Yeah, I mean, I think the general thing is to sort of plan things out and, and write them, write them down.

You know, whether you're talking about like a daily schedule, like after school activities, you know, social plans, like, [00:58:00] you know, have them written in some way where you can see them meas easily and not relying on your memory. That's probably like the number one sort of universe versatile rule is to sort of have stuff written down so you don't have to rely on your memory.

And then it helps with planning. I think it's also good to kind of preview, you know, your day or week ahead. Look at things because you also catch stuff if there's conflicts or you have to figure out logistical things, you know, when you look at it a few days out, it's much easier to figure that out than suddenly five minutes before you're supposed to leave and realize you have to be in two places at once.

Cody: Right. And, and are there any kind of apps that you find that are, are most helpful? Whether it's tools? I know, I know one tool that I I used to use is like a, be like a little square, and then you could, and each face of that square, uh, has a, a number and you can set it on the table and then it does a countdown, and then, you know, you'll hear a loud beep.

So it's like a pomo, like a physical pomodoro countdown, a method. So I know that there's physical devices and I know that you've, you've already mentioned apps that you like [00:59:00] to use, so kind of what general recommendation would you have, whether it's say, uh, somebody who's, who's raising kids, uh, or just, uh, somebody living with a DHD that would be the kind of the easiest, lowest friction methods for them to, to start implementing as a structure for their routine?

Carey Heller: Sure. I mean, I would look at apps. Apps and programs and devices that are, you either already have or easy to set up. So for example, if you have an Amazon Echo at home, that could be a good starting point for some things. You know, for basic reminders, you know, when you're, as long as you know, there's set times you're like to be within earshot of the device, um, you know, for kids, you know, even using Google Calendar, you know, especially 'cause you know, for most kids, you know of probably even, you know, first, second grade, they often have, you know, at least some access to Chromebooks.

They probably have a minimum of school account. So, you know, and obviously some kids have a personal account as well at that age, but you could basically, you know, start getting them in habit of putting stuff into a Google calendar and have a shared family calendar as part of that. Um, so, you know, or I mean, there are programs that are, you know, more elaborate like cozy for Families where you can put everyone's schedule in and you know, have [01:00:00] shopping lists and all sorts of stuff all together.

But it doesn't have to be super complicated. I think you can really start with, you know, apple Calendar or Google Calendar for a calendar and, you know, start small with a task list. So for example, even, you know, for, you have Apple Devices, the Reminders app, or you know, for Google stuff, Google tasks, you know, they're both, you know, you know, they keep adding more features over time, but, you know, the scheme of things, they're, they're fairly simplistic as far as it can do the basic functions of putting in a task, saying reminders, sub SubT tasks, but it doesn't have quite all the bells and whistles that some of the other programs like to do with, or tic tick or Asana.

Cody: Yeah. And I think it's important not to, not to get held up on any specific program. And also if you, if you do go with one to make a commitment that you're not gonna switch, um, uh, for at least six months or so. 'cause it's so easy to, to just get locked in and zoned in and trying to find a different system that's going to help you.

And I know that I mentioned GTD earlier, and I know that there's [01:01:00] another method by Tiago Forte called Para, which is, uh, projects, areas, resources, archives, which is more so a method for organizing information into folders and making it easier for you to access different information depending on whether, uh, you have house projects or just general maintenance areas of your life.

Um, whereas GTD is more of a, a philosophy around how to extract tasks, how to prioritize and review tasks. Are there any other systems or methods that you commonly recommend? 

Carey Heller: Um, not really along those lines. The problem is I think everyone's different in terms of what they need and sometimes when people try to focus too much on.

Sort of once they exist and they try to like fiddle, you know, it just isn't always work so well. But, so yeah, there's nothing in particular I can think of at the moment that I feel like sort of falls in along those lines. 

Cody: Okay. Are there any other things that we haven't touched on that, that you wanna leave our listeners with?

Um, 

Carey Heller: not that I can think of. I think we, I think we've been very [01:02:00] thorough in covering this. 

Cody: Oh, great. So if, if people are interested in, in learning more about what you do or, or reading your book, where, where should they go? 

Carey Heller: Sure. Um, probably my website, Heller Psychology Group, um, dot com probably makes the most sense.

I mean, all the books I've written are on there. Um, so I think my podcast is probably somewhere on the website, um, or social media, um, Carrie Heller's side, um, for on Instagram or Heller Psych for the practice on Instagram. 

Cody: And of course we will link to Dr. Heller's work and the description and along with the resources on executive and organizational skills.

If this is something that helped you maybe, uh, maybe help a friend, uh, find something that you could share with a friend who might need it to kind of help them with some kind of reset of their own. So thanks again for tuning in to the Mind Hack podcast. I'm Cody McLean and I'll catch you in the next [01:03:00] episode.