#102 Jeff Burningham - AI Is a Mirror — Not the Enemy

What if artificial intelligence isn't our biggest threat but our clearest reflection? In this powerful and eye-opening conversation, entrepreneur and venture capitalist Jeff Burningham, author of “The Last Book Written by a Human,” joins host Cody McLain to explore how AI mirrors our own consciousness, habits, and hidden fears.

Discover why chasing success can feel hollow, why wisdom instead of intelligence will define our future, and how we can become more human in the age of machines.

ℹ️ About the Guest

Jeff Burningham has spent his career investing in the future by launching businesses, backing entrepreneurs, and helping shape industries. But as artificial intelligence reshapes the world at unprecedented speed, he is asking a bigger question: What kind of future are we actually building?

His journey has taken him from boardrooms to political campaigns, and from the highs of entrepreneurial success to the depths of personal transformation. As a former Bishop leading a congregation of over 500 people, Jeff brings the heart of a spiritual leader to every arena he enters, whether in business, politics, or family life as a devoted husband, father of four, and proud grandfather.

His book, The Last Book Written by a Human, is a deeply personal exploration of the choices we face in the age of AI, as well as an invitation to embrace wisdom, connection, and real human evolution.

•  Built and invested in hundreds of tech companies
•  Ran for Governor of Utah, challenging the political status quo
• Explored consciousness, transformation, and the limits of human potential
• Advocates for a new way forward in a world increasingly shaped by AI

Jeff isn’t here to predict the future. He’s here to help shape it. And he believes that work starts with all of us.

• Website
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👨‍💻 People & Other Mentions

• John Huntsman Jr. — Former Governor of Utah and U.S. Ambassador
• Sally Burningham — Jeff Burningham’s wife, mentioned in personal context
• Albert Einstein — Referenced for his quote about the universe being friendly
• Mother Teresa — Referenced as an example of an “anomaly” or exceptional human being
• Mahatma Gandhi — Referenced as an example of a moral and spiritual leader
• Jesus Christ — Referenced as a symbol of love, transformation, and spiritual guidance
• Eckhart Tolle — Author of A New Earth: Awakening to Your Life’s Purpose and The Power of Now

Chapters

• 0:00 The Void at the Top
• 3:00 The Old Game of Success
• 6:00 The Breaking Point
• 10:00 The Journey Inward
• 12:00 AI as a Mirror
• 14:00 The New Game of Humanity
• 18:00 Losing to Find Yourself
• 21:00 AI for Human Flourishing
• 27:00 Layers of Distortion
• 34:00 The True Teachers Within
• 37:00 The Body’s Hidden Wisdom
• 38:30 Family as a Mirror
• 40:00 Nature and Grounding
• 43:00 Becoming More Wise
• 47:00 Religion and Connection
• 50:00 The Power of Stillness
• 53:00 The Human Renaissance
• 56:00 Emotional Intelligence
• 59:00 The New Game of Business
• 1:03:00 Politics and Unity
• 1:06:00 Love as the Answer
• 1:08:00 The Call to Wisdom
• 1:10:00 Choosing the Beautiful Path
• 1:11:37 Closing Reflections

Transcript

Jeff: [00:00:00] Yeah, I talk about in the book how I climbed my little mountain of success, and I got to the top, Cody, and I think I say there's nothing but a cold, howling wind void, and even more void. On top of that, I was running a multi-billion dollar private equity firm, investing a hundred or so million in venture capital.

I had become addicted to doing do, do, do, and somehow it's in the air we breathe, but we're not human doings, Cody. We're human beings. And so I'd realized that I had lost some of this. Being I saw myself calmly, close my laptop, put it in my bag, and literally drive down the street 15 minutes to the Salt Lake City Airport and buy a one-way ticket.

To the furthest imaginable place possible and just disappearing 

Cody: Mind. Hack is a podcast about the psychology behind performance, behavior change, and self-op optimization. [00:01:00] Each episode explorers how to think clearly, work smarter and live intentionally through insightful conversations with leading entrepreneurs, scientists, and experts, and human behavior.

Hello and welcome to The Mind Hack podcast, the show where we explore performance, mindset, and personal growth. I'm your host, Cody McLain. We talk a lot on the show about hacking our minds for better performance. But what if we're on the verge of a technology that hacks? Well, everything. Artificial intelligence is moving faster than anyone expected.

It's becoming much more than just the tool. Some might argue even a new form of consciousness. Our guest today argues that this moment is a wake up call for all of us. Jeff Birmingham is an entrepreneur and a venture capitalist. He's either started, run, or been an early investor in over a [00:02:00] dozen companies in tech and real estate valued at over a billion dollars.

He teaches entrepreneurship to thousands of students and even ran for Governor of Utah. He's also the author of the new book, the Last Book, written by a Human Becoming Wise in the Age of ai. Jeff's big idea is that AI isn't the threat, it's a mirror. It's reflecting our own consciousness back at us and what we see isn't always pretty.

So where we use this moment to become wiser, or are we destined to just build machines that amplify our own worst habits? Let's find out in today's episode. Jeff, 

Jeff: welcome to the show. Cody, it's so good to be with you. Thanks for having me. I look forward to this. 

Cody: Yeah, so Jeff, you, you played what you call the old game at the highest [00:03:00] levels.

Building, selling, investing in companies and, and even running for governor. I mean, that's quite an achievement. You write that after climbing to the top of that mountain, you realize that, that there's nothing up there and absolutely nothing. So for many people that's the entire goal. So what is the old game and what was the moment you realized it was hollow?

Jeff: Yeah. I talk about in the book how I climbed my little mountain of success and I got to the top Cody, and I think I say there's nothing but a cold howling wind void. And even more void on top of that. In other words, what, what happens at the top of the mountain is not what is different down in the valley.

So where do you go from the top? Um, I think the first time this cracked for me, um, I was running a multi-billion dollar private equity firm, investing in a [00:04:00] hundred or so million in venture capital. And for some re I was a young father of four. You know, my plate was absolutely full. I was serving in my church and for some reason I decided to add MBA to my resume, which looking back is just absolutely ridiculous.

Like, what was I thinking? You know? But I know exactly what I was thinking. Um, something I tell my students, uh, like you said, I've been a professor for thousands of entrepreneurship students, and I often tell them that the most simple ideas are often the most powerful. Therefore the most neglected. And this is one of those, what I thought, the reason I went to get my MBA is 'cause there was always more that I could be, if I could just do more, I had become addicted to doing do, do, do.

And somehow it's in the air we breathe. Um, you know, were Americans, we're Christians, or whatever [00:05:00] we are, we're, you know, we, we work hard, we get things done. We do do do. But we're not human doings, Cody. We're human beings. And so I'd realized that I had lost some of this being, and here's how it happened. I was at MBA school.

I had to do it on nights and weekends. And I remember my, one of my professors, it was a leadership class I think, that said, I want you to dream of the most inspiring thing to you. The thing that just lights you up right now. And I've got exci. I'm like, okay, cool. I've always been a big dreamer. I've always had vision.

Okay, let's see what comes here. And I sat there fully, flat, and empty. I tried again, my, my colleagues in class started typing on their laptops and I saw nothing. Finally, two things came to mind after like a lot of work, and neither of them was, I proud of this. This was an indication that [00:06:00] I was off course, one was like a wild party scene and I grew up very, uh.

Orthodox, you could say Mormon or as a Christian, latter day saint. And so I had never tasted coffee or tea, but this was, like I say, as a child of the eighties and nineties, this was like a yo MTV wraps, mashed up with a cribs, a badass cribs episode. It was a wild party. Very little clothing, a lot of white illicit substances.

I didn't even know what that was. I had no experience with it. And though, and even though I knew that in the end that would be empty or hollow, that was really appealing to me. I wanted to be free. However, then a, so I thought that was bad enough. Then a second kind of vision came to me about what was really inspiring me, and this actually sent me to see my first therapist, um, because it scared me to death in the vision.

I saw myself calmly, close my laptop, put it in my [00:07:00] bag, and literally drive down the street, 15 minutes to the Salt Lake City Airport and buy a one-way ticket to the furthest imaginable place possible and just disappearing. Disappearing from my, my beloved like wife and soulmate Sally, who I'm so in love with my four children.

My business partners, the kind of financial empire I was building, and I just wanted to disappear. So anyways, that is when I really realized this was like in my mid thirties. I was probably about your age, Cody. Um, I really realized like, something is wrong here. Something isn't working this climb to the top or this, you know, this looking for validation outside of ourselves looking for these success metrics or even, uh, you know, things.

It's not the answer. So what is the answer? I mean, I had nowhere to go but [00:08:00] inside. And uh, so that's, that's when I first realized that there was a problem with what I call the old game in the book. And I could talk more about the new game if you want, but I feel like that was a long answer. So. 

Cody: Hmm. Yeah.

And, and this seems to be something that I think we can explain. I mean, you can explain that fame, success money isn't worth the effort or it, it's not, it doesn't, it doesn't translate to happiness. We, we all know that the person who wins the lottery doesn't become happy. It's, it's almost nearly always the opposite.

And yet we still strive to desire those things as human. And it's unfortunate that I think no matter how many times people who have success say that, well, you know, it isn't what you think it is. I think there's, there's a few things in life that I don't think we can, we can really teach people. There are things that people have to experience for themselves, [00:09:00] and I think that's one of those unfortunate things.

And it's, it's, it is unfortunately that so many people spend the huge, vast majority of their lives trying to, to, to. Pedal that that bicycle of trying to achieve success only to realize how hollow and empty it is in the end. And I think there's, there's another aspect I look at it as, when people retire, you know, they say that they're gonna go golf or they're just gonna enjoy life.

And it's so difficult at that point if you're in your sixties, just to retire from an entire life of work to then just trying to not have a purpose that's defined by, by the, your, your employer. And I think that's partly why maybe you have somebody, uh, Walmart greeters, I, I don't necessarily think they need the money, but they, they need a purpose.

And so I think the, the earlier in life we can find a purpose outside of work, the more filling, [00:10:00] uh, and joyful of a life that I think he will be able to experience. Yeah, I think 

Jeff: there's a couple of several great points in what you just said. Um, number one, again, this is one of those simple and powerful ideas, but often neglected, it's a cliche, but the joy is in the journey, right?

It's not the destination we should learn from, that that's how it is in all of existence. It's about the journey, not any destination. And so what I had found and what most people I think find on their climb to the top of the mountain, what you have to do to get up there is you have to quote unquote, want it more.

You have to work harder. You have to go harder. And what I lost, and I hope Cody, and your climb to the mountain of success, hopefully you stayed a little more. I had lost some of my being. I had lost some of my presence. I was, like I said, so addicted to doing that, I had lost that. So as long as we're bo embodied here on earth, there's gonna be plenty of doing to do, you know, we.

We have relationships, we [00:11:00] have work. We need to sleep and eat. We podcast, we write books, whatever it is we're going to do. But what sort of presence are being or, uh, being are we bringing to all that we're doing? See, I think that AI is a cosmic mirror to humanity, and I think that as is often the case, the obstacle becomes the way here because as AI gets better and better at doing so many of the things that we've been used to doing, it hopefully allows humans to be to go inside.

To look for those answers that we're all looking for. Again, the last thing I'll say is when you get to the top of the mountain and all your questions aren't answered, not everything's okay. It's not everything you've been told it was, what do you do? I say, you know, everyone gets to play the fool at some point.

I don't, you know, I, I won't tell anyone a prescribed path. I understand that people will keep [00:12:00] climbing and they feel like they need to do that. I get that. But when you get to the top and you realize it is just void, that there is just a cold, howling wind. Uh. There's nothing to do except go back down the mountain, pick up the pieces of a little bit tattered life probably because of the pace that you were keeping, and then to stop looking externally, but to go into the valley of the shadow of death, quote unquote, and to look inside of us.

See, I believe that what every human being is looking for is not outside of us. Again, we've been been trained that it's all about external validation and success, et cetera, et cetera. Again, this is the old game that we have breathed in, but I think the new game is one of internal harmony of going inside ourselves, of recognizing our programming.

Relishing the beauty and messiness that it is to be human. And realizing that unlike ai, we [00:13:00] can deprogram and reprogram ourselves in a better way. Not everything that we inherited is true. And so that's the inner work that we have to do. This is the heroics journey. This is the heroic journey, excuse me.

And I think that that applies individually for like you and I, Cody and every individual, but it, there's also a collective heroic journey that I think AI is ushering humanity into. 

Cody: Yeah. It seems like we, we've all had this trap of, of doing for, uh, for uh, almost, uh, at least two, three decades. Um. And now we're, we're in a, in a society where burnout has been, uh, labeled as a, an actual illness.

Uh, a 2018 Gallup study showed like 150,000 people. Uh, a poll of 150,000 showed that global stress and worry. Was that just an all time high? And so, so how is the recent rise of ai, which [00:14:00] I mean it can, it can outdo almost anything that a human can do. How is that finally forcing us to confront this, this issue?

Jeff: Yeah, let me just say unfortunately, but this is what we seem to need as humans, often through pain, through the pain that, like you just said, like I talk about social media being baby AI or infant ai, like our first experiment with the almighty algorithm and what are the results? When I ran for governor, I was surprised.

I mean not, not surprised, I was disheartened, I was disheartened to go to community after community in Utah where I knew that people shared so much in common, so much more in common than they had different, yet these people were at each other's throats, you could say, over issues that they had been fed via their social media feed about liberals or [00:15:00] conservatives or you know, whatever the case may be.

And so I think wisdom is recognizing that no matter our differences as humans, we always share more in common. We always have more alike. So while our differences are meant to, you know, bring beauty and diversity and fun to this experience of life to existence, they don't need to be our collective undoing and, um.

As you see the division that social media has caused, as you look at our young people, especially in the mental health crisis that you mentioned, we have to ask ourselves, is this the way we wanna go? Do we want to triple and quadruple down on, again, kind of this old game that I've been mentioning, or do we want to pivot to a new game, which I would argue is the real game that we're playing here, where instead of, um, [00:16:00] you know, cash as the currency, karma is the currency instead of power as the motivation.

Authenticity is the true motivation and the reason isn't control like it was in the old game. It's love. See, I believe that like the fundamental, I, I'll say divine unity of humanity is more fundamental in a higher reality than the divisions that we perceive amongst ourselves. I would say that these divisions are largely illusory.

They don't even really exist, are fundamental. Unity is much more, more coherent and important in this reality, but we've forgotten that this is the, you know, non-trivial game that we are playing. We are waking up to ourselves, remembering who we really are, what reality really is, and then trying to return to that and.

Reflection [00:17:00] can be a powerful thing. So as AI reflects to us who we become and what we really are, we have a chance to enter, uh, our heroic journey to lean into what is being called, uh, out of all of us. Or we can continue to double down on our trauma, our fear, our programming. And if we do that, you know, I just as a father of four, and I'm actually a grandpa, I have a 15 month old grandson.

Um, you know, I, I fear that the future we're leaving for our children and grandchildren is not as bright as it should be or could be. 

Cody: Hmm. And, and, and, uh, in the past few years, you had a really big, uh, point where you had to really do some deep reflection when your political campaign was cut short by the pandemic, which, which you describe in your book as as death.

So how did that public failure kind of crush you in a way that also kind of, uh, saved you or put you on this, on [00:18:00] this new path? 

Jeff: Yeah. Isn't that often the case, Cody? Like we think that a death, an ego death, a failure is like the end, or it's like, but really again, the obstacle becomes the way. And it was a pathway for me, it was a very public defeat, the most public of my life.

I had put my whole heart and soul into a statewide campaign for, you know, a year, year and a half or so. I'm a non politician. I'm an entrepreneur, like you said. So my background isn't in politics. I was running against two very well known politicians. John Huntsman Jr. Who'd been the former governor of Utah, ran for president, so you might remember that name.

And then, uh, the current lieutenant governor and I realized that. The, the most critical months of the campaign were March, April, may, and June of 2020, right when the pandemic hit. And so I was literally confined to this little home office that you can see here [00:19:00] talking to you. We don't remember that it took a month or so to figure out Zoom, talking to the back of my iPhone, having no idea if I was talking to five people, 500 people.

Anyways, the campaign was I, I laid on this little blue couch one night around midnight after like 12 hours on the phone, and I just wept because I realized that I couldn't win. And in any market, I've seen this in financial markets all the time, but in political markets as well. When there's that amount of disruption like COVID brought to America and to the world, there's always a flight to safety.

And so there was no way that a political outsider like myself was going to be able to. Pull it off. So I lost into the summer of 2020 and I was 43 years old for the first time in my adult life. Again, remember I got married when I was 22, had children when I was 23. I was a bishop in my church, very young.

[00:20:00] I had started all these companies like I had. I got an MBA on top of all that, which was ridiculous as we spoke about. Like I had never had space or time as an adult. But in the summer of 2020 I did, and as I did have space and time, luckily I was wise enough to go inside myself. To sit in silence a lot, to feel the stillness and to reflect on what the future may hold.

I dove back into the venture work that I had missed for the previous 18 months. That's an eternity in technology and AI is what stuck out to me, and it wasn't, you know, how to make money off AI or gain power or control. What immediately hit me as I understood more and more about AI was the existential potential and threat that it was going to pose for humans.

And so that's what I've spent most of my time thinking about. That's what I wrote about in the last book of written by a Human, is [00:21:00] how can we make sure and ensure that the AI we're developing is focused on human flourishing instead of human division or destruction. I. 

Cody: Yeah, you, you write in your book that AI is built on what we feed it.

If we want to do more than repeat the past, we must start feeding this technology a vision of what the world could look like. So can you go into detail? What is the mirror that's reflecting back at us right now and why is it so dangerous? 

Jeff: Yeah. I think as humans we should ask ourselves like why are we so attracted to ai almost viscerally, and then also scared to death of it.

It's an interesting like paradox here, isn't it? And I think it's because it is here to reflect both who we are and maybe what we could become and between who we are and what we could become is a large gap. [00:22:00] And that gap is going to take transformation and evolution, which are two of the sections. Of my book.

And so I think it will point us towards that. You know, it's, I'd been on a lot of these podcasts lately as I launched the book, and a couple of the, um, hosts have asked, can't we just unplug it? Why don't we stop? You know, like in a perfect world may, maybe the best idea would be to unplug it. But that's not realistic.

That's not going to happen. That's not how evolution works. That's not how humans work. And even if the good guys, I'm putting in quotes, whoever that is, stopped, unplugged it. There are quote unquote bad guys, whoever that is, who are gonna continue to use the technology. And then, and then we become way behind.

So that's just not, we can't put our head in the sand and act like this isn't going to happen. It is going to happen. And it's up to us to determine, um, which way this [00:23:00] points us. Right now, AI is just an aggregate of all human data and recorded history. Speaking generally, and then how we interact with it.

Cody, you and I like, and then it provides a reflection or a mirror and, um, that's what AI is. It's not human. We talked about how we've learned, and I've shared a couple stories already about how the things we learned are experiential. You said Cody, like you can't really know until you make your climb up the top of the mountain, that that's not really where it's at.

Um, AI doesn't have that embodied wisdom. It never will unless we feed it to it, unless we help it understand. So, while AI will never understand the human condition at least. The foreseeable future, it cannot understand the human condition. It doesn't feel grief, it doesn't feel the ecstasy of love, the grief of loss.

That is embodied [00:24:00] human wisdom. So I think in as much as we can inform AI about the human condition, it can help us with our problems. And to just make two quick points about ways that it can definitely help us. And I talk about these in the evolution section of the book, which is the last section, but.

You think of, I, I'm a believer that, um, intelligence is kind of evenly distributed, but opportunity is not. I'm talking across the world, but you can think of AI as a massive leveler for education. You think of children being raised in third world countries or places where they're, they don't have access to a good education.

To have the smartest tutor in your pocket that never forgets anything and can pull up anything on at a moment's notice is a pretty powerful leveler. And so many careers in the future will be based on working within a, working with AI wisely and intelligently. So this becomes a [00:25:00] massive uplift. I'm thinking, you know, to global education.

There's one like benefit. A second thing obviously is in healthcare. Um, you know, one of the things that AI is really good at is taking massive amounts of data and figuring out patterns within that data that have alluded human detection or awareness. And, um, obviously I think that AI can, uh, can play a massive role in improving our health, spans our lives, et cetera.

And so, again, the last book written by Human is the bull case for ai. Like what we could become through ai, how I, I talk about it being a system-wide upgrade for humanity. And, uh, that's what I believe it can be. But like you've said, and that's up to us, not it, this is really a human problem, not a technological problem.

And so we need to make sure that it's pointed there, that it's, that it's fed the right [00:26:00] information, that it, um, that we use it correctly, that it doesn't just become an outlet for addiction or for the worst of human behavior, but instead raises us, um, to a potential higher level. I think that's what it could do.

I hope that's what it does. That's what I'm working to make sure happens. Hmm. 

Cody: And, and so you view that, that AI is a reflection of all of our thoughts and really knowledge that humans have ever have ever come up with. Simultaneously, you, you've mentioned, uh, you mentioned ego death earlier, which is often really associated with having some kind of a psychedelic experience.

And in your book, you, you happen to kind of have or share one in which you describe it as kind of waking up from a very long dream and that you, you say that it helped you peel back the layers of distortion. Uh, I'm, I would [00:27:00] love if you could go into what were those layers? H how did they stop you from seeing reality clearly?

Jeff: Yeah. There's a, there's a chapter in the book about anomalies and I, I say that people can be anomalies. You can think of Mother Teresa, or. Jesus, Gandhi, et cetera, et cetera. Um, institutions can be anomalies. And then of course events like, like the pandemic when I was deciding to run for governor, you know, you look at all the pluses and minuses.

I didn't have it exactly like that, but I'll tell you, global Pandemic was not on my cons list. Like, I didn't even know that was a thing. I didn't know that could happen even so. Um, but yeah, when I lost out of the governor's race and dove back into the venture work that I had put myself into, you know, there were several technologies that kind of stood out.

AI first and foremost, like I said. But another thing that I couldn't help scene because of the mental health crisis that was sleeping, sweeping the world, [00:28:00] was this, um, reference to psychedelic assisted therapy for mental health. And, and this was personal to me. Now, for the first time, so to speak, in my life I was really down, you know, I was struggling a little bit and, um.

We all have layers of distortion. We can't help it. My 15 month old grandson is here today. If, um, my wife Sally, and I didn't take care of him, he would die sooner or later quickly because he's totally vulnerable. We, as humans come into this world completely vulnerable and dependent on our parents, which means we immediately get, uh, enculturated into a system.

So where, what are our layers of distortion? Number one is our programming, not all of which is bad. You have to look both ways down the street. Um, don't touch the hot stove. There's a lot of good things that we all pick up from our program, and however, there's no true one quote unquote [00:29:00] true program. And so all of us also pick up programming and patterns from our families that are not correct.

And this, this relates to any family. Um, you know, whether you're with both parents or one parent, whether you're adopted or, or whatever, whatever your situation is, you pick up a lot of programming from your family, number one. Number two, we all have trauma. You know, Cody, one thing that I say to my students every time they come into class is, or often say to them is, here's one thing I know for sure.

Every single person sitting in this classroom of like 500, um, is struggling with something. Everyone is struggling. We just don't know with what, we don't know the details, but everyone is struggling. So we all have our unique trauma, some more than others. That seems unfair. Um, but so our trauma informs this.

Our [00:30:00] programming informs this. Luckily we can all be anomalies. I kind of applaud in the book the quote unquote black sheep of the group or the family or the institution. Those, the black sheep are those that are willing to like test the boundaries of our understanding that are willing to push the borders may at their own personal risk and safety, maybe physically, but certainly like emotionally.

These, these, quote unquote black sheep are often like estranged or weird or kicked out of the tribe, quote unquote. But it's these people that we need to explore new frontiers, and we definitely need them in the age of highly intelligent machines because the message for our moments and the message of the book, I believe, Cody, is that as our machines become more and more intelligent in the age of ai.

We as humans must become more wise. And that happens from exploring new territories, that happens from pushing boundaries, that [00:31:00] happens from lived experience. And so, um, anyways, I, I think that anomalies are wonderful there. Change is the only constant. It's one of the things we hate about reality as humans, but it's true.

And so we need to, to applaud these anomalies within our lives. And we need to wisely push our own boundaries as well to explore and to, and to gain new ground. Did I answer your question? I don't know if I answered your question well, but those were my thoughts. 

Cody: Yeah, no, I, I, I think you did. And I, I look at, I know.

When we're kids, we look up to, to our, our, our mom and dad, and we, we see somebody who has this, this ever expansive wisdom. We, we look at them as like superheroes, that they're always right, that they're there to protect us. They always know what, what's the best thing in every scenario. And as you grow up, [00:32:00] I think you start to, to, to see that that wa that was a, a, a layer of reality that distorted your perception.

And I also think that we tend to think that adults always know what's best. And when you become an adult, you realize just the fact that the world is kind of run by bumbling buffoons in a way, and that everybody's winging it all the time. Yeah. And nobody really knows, even at the highest levels, nobody really knows what they're doing.

And that is almost like a, a moment where you like sit back and you're kind of shocked once you have that kind of realization. 

Jeff: Yeah. Almost every day I take a breath and I think, I can't believe that I'm alive, that I exist. How does any of this even work? We're talking in Zoom. I'm in Provo, Utah. You're in Austin, Texas.

I mean, we know technologically kind of how this is happening, but not the logistics of ex, I have no idea how this is happening. It's like we're in [00:33:00] the same room. I look out my window here and I see the beautiful changing leaves of the trees. How is that happening? Anyways, my point is it's a miracle that any of this works.

Cody, and you're exactly right. I've run for governor. I've, you know, done some things. No one knows what they're doing. No one knows for sure, but it's comforting to think they do. It's comforting to lean on parents and certainly they know more than us when we're young. And they teach us so many good things.

EE every family wounds us uniquely. And that's not a, that's not an indictment on my family or anyone's family. Every family wounds, you know, wherever you grow up, you're wounded. And it's in that healing of that wound, that wound again is the way the obstacle becomes the way to our own healing, to our own transformation, to our own evolution.

And so anyways, yeah, these are, these are great thoughts and it's, there's several layers of [00:34:00] distortion that fall away, at least they did, based on my psychedelic experience. Um, and, you know, meditation has been the biggest tool for me as I lost the governor's race and went inside myself. So. 

Cody: Hmm. And, and, and in your book you say that, that we don't have to turn to psychedelics.

We don't have to turn to gurus to find wisdom. We just need to listen to, to three universal teachers that we've always had. And the first one you say is the body. Uh, you say, too many of us live too much from our minds and too little from our bodies. So why are we so disconnected and what wisdom is trapped in our bodies that machines can never access?

Jeff: Oh, I love this question, Cody. It's like so important in the age of ai, isn't it? AI doesn't have a body, at least not yet. Theoretically, it will never have a body like ours of flesh and bone. Um, so our [00:35:00] bodies become so important as we're quote unquote tempted, or as more of us live more and more in this digital world.

Of non of like non groundedness. Being grounded in our body becomes so important. Our bodies are the ultimate storage machines. For better or worse, they don't forget anything bad or good that has happened to us. Even if our mind is forgotten, our body, you know, quote unquote, there's that famous book keeps the score and so there is so much wisdom in our body.

Conversely, we're often taught, especially, you know, in my religious framework and in others, but we're often taught that our body is our enemy. That we have to control the natural man, that we have to like put down every impulse that we have to fight our intuition. And I've come to learn as a 48-year-old guy.

Now I've come to learn that that isn't true. That our body contains so much hidden wisdom if we will just [00:36:00] listen and, uh, love it. Yeah. This is again, another paradox and this modern age, I think we need less. Brain and mind and more heart, soul, and body. So we need to be grounded in our bodies. We need to listen to our bodies.

Um, and there's a lot of ways that we can do that. Uh, but yeah, that's the, we all have a body, every single human living right now. Whatever your body looks like, no matter the reasons you hate it or dislike it, which we all hate, our bodies in some ways think they're weird or whatever. Um, and the more that we can become a friend to our bodies, learn to listen to the messages of our bodies, the more, um, in touch with reality and with quote unquote divinity that we will be.

Cody: Hmm. And the second teacher you say is family. You share this really raw and [00:37:00] powerful story about being in a pool in Mexico. Yeah. And then you realized that you'd largely missed the first year of your daughter's life. So how do our families act as Amir for our own unconscious programming? 

Jeff: Yeah. That was a wake up call experience.

So often these wake up calls Cody come not in prayer or meditation. They come in our lived experience if we're aware, if we're present. This is why it's so important to bring our being to all of our doing and to be present because the life of God, the life of the universe, I believe happens in every present moment.

The past is the past. There's nothing we can do. As long as we're in these bodies, we're grounded to the present moment. There's nothing we could do to change the past. Too many of us ruminate on the past and are filled with grief, [00:38:00] shame, guilt, or we project into an unknown future, one that we're not in total control of, and that fills us with anxiety.

So that moment with my daughter in the pool, as she looked at me with her crystal green eyes and said, daddy, she was 11 months old. This is just, she's, you know, this is like telepathically. She couldn't speak, but it's like, daddy, where? Where have you been? Are you with me? I was so busy in the thick of thin things, building these companies, you know, serving other people outside of my family that I had missed the first year of my daughter's life.

That's wounding to her, you know, in some form or fashion, probably she has that grief somewhere in her body. I, I committed to her right then and there, and I've kept this commitment that I am here, that I will always be here with you. That I'm not going to miss your life, that I will always be here for you.[00:39:00] 

And so, um, I say in the book that our families aren't in the way. They are the way. And one of the hard things that, um, we will struggle with in the age of AI is I work with chat, GPT or you know, Claude or whatever, and it's like, Jeff, you're the most handsome guy ever. You're brilliant. You, you know, you don't, it, it's constantly glazing me like I'm the best thing at everything.

That's not really reality. So human relationships are messy. It's through these messy, beautiful human relationship that we transform and change. And so we need to lean into that mess a little bit. We need to be willing to look at our trauma, our pain, our programming to deal with that personally, to try to bring that wisdom once we've healed ourselves to the collective.

And so that's why I say [00:40:00] again, a universal teacher's are family. It doesn't matter, Cody, what your background is. Someone helped raise you and that is your family. And, and there is a lot to learn from that family. Me. Mm-hmm. 

Cody: You know, recently I've started to ask myself, WCD, what would Chad JPT do? Mm. And I, I thought that was, what would Cody 

Jeff: do?

Cody: You know, ww, CED Oh yes. That, that, that, that would be an alternative. Maybe that, maybe that's the, that's the ultimate place where I should be. Yeah. That's where that 

Jeff: works. 

Cody: But, but I found it helpful whenever I come to a, a, a pathway and I'm not really sure what decision to make, or I'm not able to really weigh the pros and the cons accurately.

And I'm able to talk with it and it's able to help guide me in a way. [00:41:00] And so I know that a lot more people, I think where in this gap, uh, where I see we are in AI right now, is that we have everything that AI is capable of doing. And then we have. What people are actually using AI for. And regardless of whether or not we're in like an AI bubble, I still see this huge divide between the vast majority of people and how they're utilizing, uh, AI like Chad, GPT, and what it's actually capable of helping them with.

And I think as time goes on. More people will have that little thought in their head, oh, what would Chad GPT do? Maybe I should ask it. And they'll start to rely on it more and more for, for a greater number of things and decisions in their own lives. And we've already started to see it, it having an impact where I think divorce rates are up.

And there was, there was something in the news I remember seeing about this, this, uh, potential association with [00:42:00] reliance on ai. And there's a whole debate about that. Well, why, why is that? Is it, perhaps because it's helping to realize when people are in abusive relationships? But I guess I'm, I'm looking at this kind of holistically is, you know, do you think that we're going to be better off as a society that continues to rely more and more on AI telling them what to do?

Or in the process, are we going to lose our humanity and everything that makes us human? And the experiential nature of making mistakes and learning from them. Um, so I know it's a, it's a vast thought. Mm-hmm. Blah, blah, blah. I'm curious where your thoughts are. Can 

Jeff: I just answer Yes, yes. And to like all of it?

Yeah. It feels like all of that is happening and it could happen. This is why the punchline of the book is again, what I think is the message for a moment and so critical, which is that as our machines become more [00:43:00] intelligent, we must become more wise. What that means is using the AI wisely. So a machine should probably not be your closest relationship if you're extraordinarily lonely.

AI can serve as a potential bridge to human companionship. It can. Maybe points you in some good directions. But when we outsource our agency, when we outsource, um, our intimacy to a machine, we have to ask ourselves where are we going when we become more and more disembodied living in a digital realm and not grounded to the third universal teacher, by the way, was nature.

When we're not grounded to Mother earth or to nature to what is real, we have to ask ourselves where we headed. So the reason I wrote the last book written by a human was to start a conversation to elevate the conversation around ai, [00:44:00] to focus it not on, like I said, power control or just making money. I have made, you know, a dozen or so investments in AI companies as a venture capitalist.

I, I want the best AI technology to get out there that will serve humanity. But, but we need to look at it. In more of this, in my opinion, more of this existential lens. So can it prove to be helpful in some regards in that way? Absolutely. You, you spoke about abusive relationships and, and those are the types of families that we need to get away from.

You know, those are the types of relationships we need to get away from. Sometimes it's hard to recognize that we're in that, um, scenario. I know that for me, I've used it as a wisdom teacher. Not to like ai, teach me about the universe. Teach me about God more. Like what is the common thread through all religions of all time?

What do [00:45:00] the greatest teachers always come back in history, always come back to? And so I, I think there are good ways that we can use AI if we outsource. You know, I saw an interesting commercial, I think this weekend watching some college football where like. There was a conversation happening just like this, and every time in between questions, we'd ask our chat, GPT what to say, and then we'd say it like, gosh, this certainly could make us, uh, more, I'm saying quote unquote dumb.

It certainly could hurt student learning. It, it, but it could, conversely it can help us. So how do we do that, Cody? Sorry. That's what we're figuring out. That is the crucible. That for the next decade or two or three, we're walking through together. This is our heroic journey where we figure out together how to make sure that the most powerful tool that we have ever created, and I would say this tool that we have more [00:46:00] discovered or remembered rather than create it even.

How do we make sure that it is focused on human flourishing? Um, what do we learn from our first experiment with social media and where do we go from here? This is a tall task. I'm not saying that this is going to be easy. I'm not even saying if I was a betting person, that I would maybe bet on it. But some things are worth our very best efforts, no matter the outcomes.

And this putting our best efforts towards ai, focus on human flourishing. Is one of those things that should require our very best efforts. We should put our best efforts there, no matter the outcome, that we might not even be the ultimate outcome, that we might not be in total control of here. Hmm. 

Cody: This is somewhat rhetorical, but do you think AI is our new God?

Jeff: It certainly could be. Like in the [00:47:00] modern age, and as you see CEOs and religious leaders, political institutions relying more on more, more and more on ai. It could be, um, I don't think it's God in the sense that again, um, yeah, I, I'll just leave it at that. Like it could become that. I don't think it's meant to be that.

I think it's meant to be a tool. A tool to help us, you could say, become closer to God or get closer to God. I do think there is a divine purpose within ai, but we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to fight for it. We're gonna have to look for it in order to capture it, you know, to, there's too much, there's too often to run to like base human desires or base human needs.

We need to elevate our outlook here with ai. We need to look higher. We need to bring our highest selves, our best selves, um, to our use of this [00:48:00] technology and to the development of it, how it's gonna roll out, um, to individuals of course, but also throughout countries and institutions. It's going to affect everything.

So, um, it's important 

Cody: and, and you're right, that our greatest wisdom may not come from the mind at all. And at the age of ai, we need more heart and less mind. So, so what does that look like in practice for someone who's stuck in this doing mode, 

Jeff: get into your body, get into human relationship via in real life experiences?

You know, it's interesting, I have a chapter about reforming religion in the book, and the core question is for every religion, I think in this modern day and age is, it is in a, in an age of intelligent, highly intelligent machines where people are spending more and more time with their divid digital devices.

What special belief or [00:49:00] practice should get in the way of human community and connection? And I would argue none. And of course, unless someone is purposely trying to do harm, and unfortunately there are some of those people. But besides that. Come on in, brother. Come on in, sister. We're in the human family together and we need each other and we need to connect.

My point is we need to connect in community. So I encourage people to go back to church, to go back to their faith traditions, um, to join the running club, to do whatever they need to do, to have in real life experiences. So that's a second idea. The third idea would be get into nature. Nature is constantly, um, mirroring for us or showing us what reality is.

It shows us this through the breath and the body life, death, rebirth, it shows us in the seasons the rising and setting of the sun. The earth has a static [00:50:00] energy that, uh, grounds us. And as we become more and more disconnected from the earth and more and more connected to our digital worlds. Only where we AI can only take over in a nefarious way in our world where we have become disembodied and let go of our ability to like choose.

And so anyways, those are things that I would encourage people. Those are simple, like real practices that I would encourage people to do. Any flow activity that you can do in nature, whether that's mountain biking, hiking, surfing, whatever it is, do more of that. And then of course, I'd, I'll have to just say, you know, meditation, take time every day to quiet your devices, to quiet your mind, to go inside yourself.

At first, you'll feel like you're doing it wrong. There is no way to do it wrong. By the way, at [00:51:00] first you'll think that there's an outcome that you're working for. There is no outcome that you're working for. You're just trying to be present with yourself and see what happens. If you do this for a week or a month, you'll start noticing things.

You'll start, um, being more in tune with who you really are and what reality really is. And in a massively distracted world where things are coming at us constantly, we need that quiet time to go inside and to recenter ourselves. So there's some thoughts or ideas of what people can do. I talk about all these in the book.

Yeah. 

Cody: Yeah. And of course if you never have that quiet time, that time where you're not getting external information, uh, and, and that's of course why the, the idea of shower thoughts is, is so popularized because it tends to be that that quiet time in which our subconscious thoughts can kind of bubble up to the surface and [00:52:00] kind of communicate to our conscious brain.

And unless you have those quiet moments of, of self-reflection, of asking yourself, how do I feel in this moment? Then you may never be able to truly connect with yourself. And then you end up on this journey that society tells you that you should be on one, where you end up in 30 years with, with your third divorce, and wondering, how the hell did I get here?

And so I think we are on, I, I'd like to think that we as a society are becoming more connected and attuned with that, and even in the age of so much social media, as we've started to see groups in school, uh, that forgot what they call those groups, but, but just groups where kids go after school and they don't have any phones, no technology.

So I start, I'm, I'm optimistic that we're starting to see this, this rebelling against all of what social media platforms can actually do for us. And so [00:53:00] I guess the, the question in a sense is that, uh, whether that's going to occur with AI too. 

Jeff: Yeah. I, I think that there will be a return to wisdom. There will be a return to simplicity.

Um, I just hope that it's enough and I hope that people heed the call. Again, in my estimation, this is a heroic journey. We as humans are on together and it's up to each one of when one of us chooses to heed the call, to go inside ourselves, to simplify, to be present, to bring our being to our doing. It blesses and those, it ripples out and it affects all of us.

If we are one connected organism in some way, which I do believe we are energetically, then what you do, Cody matters to me. And what I do matters to you. And what we're in [00:54:00] control of is what we each choose to do. So again, this is the challenge in the age of the artificial is to return to our humanity.

It's interesting, the mirror, the, you know, the art of the mirror of AI and its artificiality kind of calls us back to our humanness. It calls us back to our humanity. There's kind of a reaction. I don't know if you've, like, when I see something created by AI most often it's kind of flat. It's almost too perfect actually.

Mm-hmm. And you can recognize that. And you crave the messiness, you crave the humanity, the, the beauty in that, and again, I think via pain, unfortunately AI will have us come back to this. It will, it will becking us back through pain. I, and I think there are several steps of that. We could, I think disinformation.

[00:55:00] Will become an increasing pain point in the age of ai. I think the job loss will be an increasing challenge for humanity as AI takes more and more jobs or does more and more of what we're used to do doing what, what do we do and who do we become in the absence of that doing, um, this is gonna be an interesting adventure that we're on to together, but my, my bet and my goal in writing this book and in kind of pivoting the work that I'm doing.

My bet is on a renaissance of human consciousness in the next decade. That's where I think we're headed. I think we need more voices like mine and there are a lot more talking about this, elevating the conversation and then creating art to remind, I viewed this book as a little piece of art and offering to the divine, and I hope that it feels familiar to you.

I hope it feels familiar to the readers [00:56:00] in some form or fashion, and that they can see their own heroic journey, their own life story. In some of mine. They can relate to it and they can ponder on it and make changes that they think are wise, uh, for them and for those that they love. Hmm, 

Cody: and, and you, you're right, you have this perspective that, that machines may never be able to kind of out embody us.

And so is that, is that embodied kind of emotional experience? I, I think, do you, do you argue that that's our last competitive advantage against ai? 

Jeff: Yeah. Well, I think it's just one that we need to, sometimes we shy away from that embodied experience for reasons that we've spoken about. It can be painful.

It can be painful to face our reality, to see who we really are, to realize how far we have to go. It can be painful. Obviously, we all have traumatic [00:57:00] experiences that can be painful. But the greatest technology I actually argue and say in the book that we've created is the ability to connect intimately with another human meaning relationally.

Like just like we are now. Just like this is the ultimate technology and this technology happens through our mind. Yes, but it also happens in our feelings and emotions and. AI doesn't have feeling, and as much as we know or understand it, it can't express emotion and or can't really feel emotion in the way we do.

So I do mention in the book that these emotions, these feelings are part of our competitive advantage. It's part of what makes us human. And, um, they're great. I'm putting in quotes, technologies that humanity has developed. The ability, um, to do these things and [00:58:00] to experience these things over time. And it's time to return to these things and time to rely on our intuition.

It's time to rely on our feelings, our heart time to, um, to do those things that will help differentiate us in a highly efficient and effective era of, of doing via machines.

Cody: So you lay out a path for the new game and, uh, kind of like the system-wide upgrade for humanity. And I, I think in some ways this requires a reform of our biggest institutions. So I know that you talk about conscious capitalism and it, you've been, you've been a venture capitalist for many years, so, so, you know, the system.

So what is the, the fundamental danger in having AI in our current economic model, which, you know, as you, as [00:59:00] you say, it, it incentivizes quarterly profits in market share. 

Jeff: Yeah, I, I'm a believer having started several companies and employed thousands of people over my career, that, um, business doesn't exist to just increase the bottom line.

We've lost sight of what business was really meant to be. Which was to be of service to humans, which was to provide perspective, um, diversity and opportunity to human employees of different corporations. And so the heroic journey that I'm talking about is one in which more and more leaders, I'm gonna say quote unquote, like Jesus taught, lay their lives down for their friends.

What do I mean by that? What I mean is we need more CEOs and we need to make sure that we promote [01:00:00] CEOs that are focused on human flourishing rather than the bottom line. We need religions to realize that in an era of starved human community and connection, they are or are meant to be a gathering place for human community and connection and communion with the divine.

How can they facilitate that instead of creating artificial boundaries and barriers that don't even exist. They're not real and they're not productive in the era that we're living in. And then, and then, yeah, like I talk about in, in the last section of the book about a new political movement that I call the human political movement.

And this is a movement where human flourishing is put front and center. It's not about we need politicians. I, I hate to say it, but it's true. I believe that our leaders are a reflection [01:01:00] of us, especially politically. We elect the leaders and they're a reflection of us, whether we like it or not. So that means, as a public, we get to choose which leaders we elect, and we need to ensure that we elect leaders that aren't focused on crushing the other side.

That aren't focused on just winning the next election. And I know this is a tall order, tall task, but we can do it. We can choose to do it. I really believe that we're built for this. Um, we need to elect leaders that will sacrifice the next election to make the right decision for humanity. I mean, this is, this is the crucible that AI is going to put us as humans, but also our leaders into, and we're gonna get to see what leaders choose.

And again, their, their choices should be based around this idea of human flourishing. Really our institutions, these are the core institutions that, [01:02:00] that, um, affect all of our lives, but they're just made up of a bunch of humans, of individuals. And so as we change as humans within these, uh, organizations change, we can, uh, reach.

For a higher holier way, we can create, as Eckhart might say, like this new earth, we can upgrade the system of existence that we're living in. This is the power that I think we have in an age where we're partnering with AI in productive and wise ways. 

Cody: Hmm. Yeah, and, and I think, you know, as much as anybody that it's, it's a, it's a really tall order.

To ask for us to find a way to set aside kind of our, our petty differences and to, to all work together, uh, towards a common good. And I, I think in historical example examples, I mean, we, [01:03:00] we had the Great Depression and the 1930s and, uh, it was really America going into World War II that kind of brought us together.

We were all united against the common enemy. And so it just makes me wonder if, you know, I don't know if we're really gonna be able to establish a, a way to, to kind of read. To kind of fix the divide that we have so much here in America. So maybe I might wonder, or, or hope, I don't know if this is a good thing to hope for, but maybe AI is the common enemy that, that we all band together for at some point in the future.

But I, I'm curious, do you have any, any ideas as to how we will get there? Um, how will we bridge this connection? Or even what would you change, uh, if there's anything that you could change about our political system, what would you change? 

Jeff: Yeah, the more things change, the more they stay the same. Cody, like, we're working with the same issues that [01:04:00] people are working with.

1,002 thousand years ago. I mean, our experience is very different. The technology is very different, but really the book and ai, it, it's about, the book is about human nature, not ai. So again, I think what I would change. Is, I mean, in politics specifically, I think the two party system creates enemies, creates an us versus them mentality, a winner and a loser.

It's like a sporting competition. And, um, I think we need more viewpoints. I think we need more voices. Politicians are highly incentivized to get reelected. This is their quote unquote career or job or profession. And I've run against career politicians and I was shocked at their ability to just blend into ev any [01:05:00] crowd that they were a part of or any group that they were presenting to.

They were one of those group, you know, they were one of them. And, um, I think we need, like I called for and said, I think we need to understand that authenticity is the real motivation and we need to reward leaders who are authentic. That are not hiding behind masks. And so, yeah, I mean, obviously there's a bunch of more, like, we could talk about term limits.

I don't want to get too political, but like, you know, there's, there's a bunch of ways to try to incentivize fresh ideas change, um, to not have politicians so worried about just the next election and be reelect, getting reelected. But yeah, I mean, the bottom line, I, I, I believe that the natural substrate of existence, the base substrate, I mean, it, it's what Einstein asked.

The only question that really matters Einstein said [01:06:00] was if the universe is friendly or good, I can't remember. I'm paraphrasing here, but, um, that matters because if it is friendly or good, which I believe it is, it's trying to help us along some path that we don't totally see clearly. By the way, if we saw it clearly.

This wouldn't be a fun adventure like we, uh, being, uh, an eternal being existing eternally would probably get pretty dull if we remembered everything all the time. If we knew the exact A, do A, then B, then C. We're figuring it out as we go. And I think the outcomes are up to us. I don't think the outcome has been determined.

I think we as humans get to determine those outcomes. And um, that's certainly true politically and it's true in corporations. And um, [01:07:00] so yeah, I think we've spoken about a lot of the ideas that I share in the book around how we can do this. There's again, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Love is the answer like 99% of the time. The answer is love. So we need to lean more into love. I think God or creation is trying to turn us into more love, and so we can lean into that even when it's painful. 

Cody: Hmm. Is, is that the single idea that, that you think readers should take away from this conversation, um, on this shift from playing the new game and kind of preparing for this new age of ai?

Jeff: Yeah, I, I, I guess maybe two thoughts around what I'd like leaders or readers to take away is, number one, um, damn in this age of highly intelligent machines, how do I [01:08:00] become more wise? Like, how do we as humans and how do I become more wise? And so that's the first kind of high level. I think the second maybe high level idea would be, um, who am I really?

What is the reality of this existence? Where are we trying to go? And are we headed in the right direction? Does it feel like we're headed in the right direction? If not, what can we change here? Like, what do we need to change? And so again, gen, this is at the very highest woo woo level or whatever. Like, we need to lean into love.

Um, we need to respond with love. How did you interact with your neighbor the last time you saw them? How did you act the last time you didn't get what you wanted? What was your last comment on social [01:09:00] media that you made? I mean, these are little things that add up and make a big difference. And again, I, I just don't think there are bigger answers than what we've spoken about.

There's not some miracle potion or, um. I, I, I don't, you may believe that someone is going to come from the sky and save us. That may be the case. Regardless of whether that's the case or not, it's probably best for us to prepare ourselves, uh, through our daily interactions and through our daily decisions in the best way possible.

How, how can we be ready for whatever moment that is? You know, I talk about AI being a metaphorical judgment day for humanity in the book, and I think it is, it's a reflection of who we have been, who we become, and then it can point away of where we could go together. [01:10:00] I just hope we choose the more beautiful way.

I hope we lean into our higher natures. I hope that we pivot and choose to play like I outlined in the book, this new Game of Abundance. Because again, I think if you layer on this godlike technology of AI onto this old game of division, greed and hate that is so prevalent. I don't think the outcome is good.

I, I just don't think that the outcome for humans is good if we continue down the same path. Hmm. 

Cody: Well, it's a, it's a somber, but, uh, a, a good place to end, I think. Um, yeah. It's, it's so, so, make it a little less 

Jeff: somber. Cody, real quick, sorry. I, I think we were built for this though, especially like, I have hope in that as I teach the younger generation, all these college students we're built for this, we can do this.

Um, [01:11:00] it's gonna be a lot of work, but that's what we have needed to transform, is that, you know, work to be done. And, um, this work is maybe a little different than we had thought of. This work is a lot about internal reconstruction and deconstruction, you could say. But, uh, that's, that's what I think we're built for.

I, I wrote this book to be a conversation starter, like I said, and then to maybe move into a human political movement. So yeah, I'm not hard to find, uh, I think you were gonna ask that, but just jeff birmingham.com. All, I have very mixed feelings about social media, but I'm kind of on all the social medias I'm trying to go to where the people are, um, at Jeff Birmingham.

And yeah, I want to hear from you. I hope you'll pick up the book. It's on audible. You can listen to it. You can read it, and then I want to hear your thoughts, like what are your thoughts about what Cody and I spoke about? Um, how, how do we do this together because this is an [01:12:00] evolving situation. It's unfolding as we speak.

And again, I nor does anyone have all the answers again, that would No. Game is fun when you have all the answers in the end, like we're figuring it out as we go, and this is a, this is a great adventure, a great ride that we're all on together. 

Cody: Hmm. Yeah. Thank you so much, Jeff. It's been a, it's been a really great conversation, uh, on, on this topic that I think is so rarely discussed.

And so if, if you'd like to look at this book, it's called The Last Book, written by a Human. If you found this conversation helpful, please do us a favor. Go ahead and like, subscribe. Maybe even share this episode with somebody you know who is also trying to figure out our place in this new world of ai.

So thanks again for tuning into to the Mind Hack podcast. I'm Cody Mclain.

Hey guys, this is Cody again. I hope you enjoyed that episode of Mind Hack, and if [01:13:00] you're interested in getting more mind hack worthy stuff straight to your inbox, then you might consider signing up for my weekly newsletter. It often contains links to new episodes, blog posts, and other interesting finds I found on the in interweb in the past week.

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