The Process of Healing

The Process of Healing: Grief and Loss with Special Guest Ashley Michelle

• David Keck & Susie Spencer • Season 2 • Episode 170

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What happens when grief strikes out of the blue, and the old five-stage roadmap doesn't seem to fit? Join us as we unpack the tangled web of emotions that come with loss, whether it's the passing of a loved one, a painful breakup, a career upheaval, or the disruption of daily life. Jake shares his heart-wrenching experience of losing a friend, and we delve into the messy, non-linear process of grieving, acknowledging that the journey is as unique as the individual experiencing it. With personal stories and raw honesty, we explore how grief can co-exist with moments of joy and how creating personal spaces can facilitate healing. 

Let's talk about the courage it takes to face the aftermath of trauma. From survivor's guilt to unexpected waves of sorrow, we reflect on the strength required to move forward one day at a time. Discussing the potential for finding purpose in the chaos, we explore how honoring the legacy of those we've lost can become a source of healing. Our conversation reveals personal insights into how we have navigated the darkness, weaving a narrative of resilience that emphasizes the importance of self-care, community support, and the sometimes surprising avenues for personal growth and advocacy.

Amidst these poignant reflections, we shine a light on the transformative power of community. Whether it's through the comforting presence of supportive friends, the shared stories of others who understand, or the surprising solidarity found in online networks, the episode underscores the importance of connections in rebuilding one’s life. We celebrate the strength found in community, like the story of a 16-year-old non-binary listener who found solace in an LGBTQIA network. Through these discussions, we honor the courage it takes to heal openly, reminding listeners that it is perfectly okay to not be okay, all while finding strength through shared experiences and compassionate support.

#grief #griefsucks #loss

https://ashleyinspires.com

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Speaker 1:

David hello, it's so good to see you. I cannot wait for this episode. We're talking about grief and loss. I think there's going to be tears. I think there's going to be revelations and really good conversations. Hopefully, I won't talk too much, because grief fills me with anxiety. What do you think?

Speaker 2:

I have spoken a couple of times in previous episodes. In the past few months, I've went through two life-changing events and I'm nervous about the grief and loss. What I also find so good about us, and I appreciate about us, is we want to be authentic. We want to be real. For the past two weeks we've talked three times about recording this episode and one or both of us have said today's just not a good day for it. We finally realized that this is going to be a hard topic.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But there may not ever be a great designated time for it. We have to talk about the hard things, and that's what we signed up for and that's what we're going to do. When you open up saying we're going to laugh, we're going to cry, I appreciate you saying that and I'm ready.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I got my box of tissues right here. I don't think we would be very good life coaches or friends of our listeners if we didn't have a conversation about grief and loss. When it comes to trauma, this is where a lot of people get caught up in stuck. So much changes when you lose someone, whether they die, whether they leave, whether it's yourself that you've lost because of a traumatic event, and now your life is so different than what it used to be. Refunding someone is so hard, but I think that's where people get stuck. I think it's also where survivors have been mistreated the most in people's response to what they've experienced. I know we're talking about something that is such a gaping raw wound for so many people still.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love what you mentioned. We think of grief and loss. I have seen commonly that people want to go straight to death. It's not just the passing of a loved one, it's not just the passing of someone that you had issues with that are unresolved. It could be, as you mentioned, someone leaving, but it could also be you leaving someone just because you make the decision to leave because this is not a healthy place for me or us, or we're not growing, or whatever the case may be.

Speaker 2:

This is your breakup too even when you're making that decision and that's what I try to remind people all the time when I've spoken to people that are going through breakups I've had to remind myself of is, regardless if you made the decision or not to exit this relationship, it's your breakup too.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And what I also found very interesting is when we say grief and loss, our minds don't go to our job and coworkers. But I was with a company for seven years. I thought I was going to retire from this company. We made the decision together for me to step away with management transitions, but then I also found who was a friend and who was a work friend.

Speaker 3:

And that's okay right.

Speaker 2:

But there was also this pattern, this structure, this schedule that was interrupted and there was a grief and loss that came to that and I found myself scratching my head, like why am I missing this job? But it was part of my schedule, it was part of my life. These people, the faces even if I didn't know your name, I saw you in the coffee room every day and that became a routine and a comfort to me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, changing my career of almost 20 years, the routine, the people, the schedule and this life you created for yourself is now gone. You have to pick up the pieces and make something new of it and it's hard. It's really hard to do and it's definitely not without all the things that come with grief. People like to talk a lot about the five stages of grief, but I think there are way more and it's not stages, it's a spiral or even like a tornado sometimes With our kids. We talked a lot with them about it.

Speaker 1:

Therapists and psychologists are easier on kids with their grief. They don't put it into stages so much, they just say that any of these emotions or feelings could come up at any time and make it more varied. For kids they say it could be shock or denial or loneliness, and it's more complex for kids. But, like with adults, all of a sudden you lose someone and you're stuck, almost like on this tramway at an airport where you get on and you are just on it and you got to go to that gate. You're told you have denial. Let's see what are the stages here. We got denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance, and it's supposed to go somehow in that order magically, then you're all better, and it never seems to go like that. Have you noticed?

Speaker 2:

that, yeah, I know. Just personally, I don't expect there to be any kind of order, and when you have two people involved, it's never going to be the same order. When my partner and I split up, I may be mad at him at the time, that he is missing me, living in those memories and the shoulda, coulda, wouldas, but then, when he's right now, I'm mad, then I'm to the reminiscing state and it's. I know that. I've said this so many times, but so many things can be true at the same time. Like I can be so mad at you but I can also still miss you at that same time. Like so many things can be true at the same time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we talked about that a lot in the house. It's more than one thing at once For some reason. It's like therapy for kids, where they allow kids to have all those emotions at once where you're sad but it looks like anger, or you're laughing but really you are terribly sad. You get to experience it all at once, or one right after the other, and then back to the beginning or the middle. It's never easy and simple.

Speaker 2:

This is going to align with. The two things can be true at the same time. Right, I can know that leaving my partner was the best thing for both of us, but also still miss him and long for him and still love him and ending to something, and the grief and loss of something doesn't have to be death or anger. It is true that sometimes you have to love yourself enough and love that person enough to let them go, because there's a void that needs to be filled that you can't fill for that person, and that is okay, and we forget to talk about those things yeah, the hole that you leave behind when you leave grief rushes in like water and it fills that space.

Speaker 1:

Whether it was the right shape for that person or not, it's still there and it takes time. I've had so many people that take these experiences and then try to treat you like a project. Oh my gosh, I'm going to fix you up, whether with a new person, and try to make things better. Everyone needs time. I think it's appropriate to give people time to heal or to grieve, to experience that pain that comes with it.

Speaker 2:

I think this will be a great time for me to share the story that I wrote. We say enjoy the ride. But how can this be joyful? There is beauty in everything, and sometimes we have to dig really hard for it. And that's okay too for it. And that's okay too, susie, if I can get through this without crying, I will uber eat your family dinner tomorrow. If that's that's awesome, I do cry. You have to venmo me dinner tomorrow yes, a box of tissues no, but this is the enjoy the Ride segment.

Speaker 2:

I went through some of my journals and blogs and created this story that I'm writing from several different blogs. Grief is a funny thing. It's like an uninvited house guest who overstays their welcome, but you're too polite to kick out. At least that's how it felt for me. After what happened, my world turned into a black and white movie with no sound. Everything was muffled, like I was underwater. I remember trying to navigate this new silent world, I found myself staring at my reflection, wondering who this stranger was in these hollow lives. It was like looking at a before and after picture of a plant that had been forgotten.

Speaker 2:

I tried to laugh, to eat, to sleep, but it was like trying to find a square peg in a round hole. Then one day I found myself in my kitchen starting to eat a half a bag of chips. I had no idea how I got there or why I was eating chips at 2 am, but in that moment a wave of laughter washed over me. It was like my brain had decided to show up to the party, and it was in that moment that I realized something I was still here. I was still breathing, still functioning, even if I was on autopilot. Grief didn't disappear overnight. It was more like a stubborn puppy that keeps coming back for a belly rub. But that laugh, that tiny flicker of normalcy, was the start of something new. It was like finding a tiny light in a dark room, and that light, as long as it was, slowly started to illuminate other corners of my life.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I love that that tiny flicker. It's like hope and and it grows. I'm so proud of you. I love this story.

Speaker 2:

Now I'm gonna cry I can't speak for all victims, so I'm going to speak for myself when using the victim mentality, mindset, the guilt, the shame, all these things that come with being a victim and even a survivor. The grief and loss that happened to me after my attack to find something to smile about, to find something to celebrate, to find something to feel good about intensified the guilt and the shame. I almost looked at it as my attack was supposed to be my big T. It was supposed to be what ended me and it didn't. But now these other things are ending to remind me that I'm not worthy.

Speaker 1:

So finding a glimmer in that dark room was scary for me. I hate that so much of a survivor's experience does come with the guilt and the shame. That does not belong to you. It falls on the shoulders of the perpetrator, but somehow it just attaches to ourselves. And you're right. Where that light shines, it illuminates those places too. What's sad is that when someone dies, there is a formal funeral and you're able to publicly acknowledge that loss. There are ceremonies and symbolisms that go with the death of somebody. But when it's yourself, your life, that you had just died a horrific death and is gone, we're just not even given the chance to have those special ceremonies, because it's almost like you're told it's your fault or that somehow you deserved that or what happened to you.

Speaker 1:

They didn't get the right justice for it, they're able to explain away what they did or hide it, the grief comes. I think a big part of it is because there's something about validation and being able to have your family and friends around you that support you. And then, like I said, that symbolism of going through the motions of, officially, this is the end and now we have to move on. And we just don't get that, and I wish that you could have, even if it had just been burying the clothes you were in or burying your mattress and being able to say a recognition something horrible happened here and my life will never be the same.

Speaker 2:

It's crazy, susie, even though when my partner and I broke up, even though it was for the best of both of us and it was amicable, I found myself putting me into the same bucket that I put my perpetrator in, because part of the reason that my partner and I split up is because of PTSD and trauma that happened that's out of my control, and because when I found that I was hurting someone that I love, even though I know that my character shines through, I know that a lot of what I'm feeling is something my ex-partner hasn't assigned to me or felt. But there is this guilt and shame and blame that comes with victims and then to think of us, the victims, hurting someone else and someone else feeling an ounce of the pain and the shit that we have felt yeah devastates us.

Speaker 1:

I thought about that too in just my relationships with different people my friends and family and I. I think the motivation is different. You were not motivated by hate. When you hurt this person, you were doing it to protect them and out of love. It's sad that it still ended up hurting them, but your motivation was entirely different than your perpetrator, where your attacker was not motivated by any form of kindness. Your heart was really in the right place with your partner, even though they ended up getting hurt and you still feel so bad about it. I think that actually is what makes the difference.

Speaker 2:

We always talk about how they know my intent, or I hope they know my intent. They know my intent, yeah. This is a case where my ex says I know your heart, yeah, and I'm doubting it because of my shit. And so for someone to say, but david, I know your heart, I know your intent, I know the truth behind this. When we are used to saying, no, please know this about me, no, this is not me, it's a bit of a shock, it's definitely out of my norm. But damn it, susie, you're right, we're going to laugh, we're going to cry. Damn it, susie, you're right, we're going to laugh, we're going to cry.

Speaker 1:

I think that's the way it should be, with creating a safe space, which we've talked about before with our modules and the podcast. That safe space is also there for grief and being able to hold the space for another person to have those moments where you don't shame them for the tears but also for the laughter. I love that about us and our podcasts and our listeners because I think they're the same way. If you don't mind, we have a listener question here. Again. That just highlights who our people are, how great they are. It takes courage to talk. If you don't mind, I could read it here for us. We have Jake, a 28 old from a small town, says my friend passed away unexpectedly a few months ago. We were like brothers and I'm really struggling to cope. Some days it feels like a bad dream and other days it's like a heavy weight on my chest. I try to keep busy but it's really not working. Any advice on how to navigate this mess of emotions? I feel like I can really relate to Jake and what he's going through. There are so many experiences in my life where I could talk about hearing my dad disappearing and what that whole mess was like after he was gone. Mess was like after he was gone, or I could talk about reliving those moments and trying to honor his murder victims and even the ones that I saw at least nine people killed in front of me. So the grief of that. It was a heavy weight and just the mess of emotions Two years ago. Heavyweight and just the mess of emotions. Two years ago I found out in part of this police investigation that I went to the OBGYN to get an extent of the scar tissue and the damage inside from the abuse growing up. Hearing that those times I had horrific pain and even severe, it's hard to talk about. But finding out the extent of the damage that there were times I was pregnant, the stuff that happened to me surrounding those memories, it's confirmation of what I had known, but also confirmation of the stuff that happened with my mom doing the abortions to hide the evidence. This was two years ago when I was willing to face all of it.

Speaker 1:

It was so much grief and sadness I cried probably two weeks straight on the couch. I couldn't even get up. I did work from the couch or the bed. I really appreciate that. I have a good therapist and doctor. That was like honey you need some medication. That's going to help you here, and it did help so much. What actually helped the most was I told my husband hey, we have a motor home, an RV. This is really stressing the kids out. Can you, you know, the next few days, be here with them? I'm going to go out there. I'm going to allow myself the chance to cry and to mourn just really mourn the loss of my childhood and the stuff that I experienced. I cried, I journaled, I drew, I screamed silently into a pillow because I didn't want to stress my neighbors.

Speaker 1:

By the end of the third day I realized I was not crying as much. I could even smile and laugh. I learned that my body can get over being super sad. But I needed the chance to have the full experience. Every other situation in my life has been minimized. For all those emotions, funerals, whatever, it didn't matter. You are on the five stages of grief and we're going to rush you through to acceptance. This was the first time I allowed myself to really sit in it, just be there and fully feel it. There was a tiny glimmer of light and then it grew and I was able to get up and move around and get out of the timeout trailer. I could get up, I could move, I could go to work, I could do the things and I love that I found that out about myself that you don't cry forever. That huge amount of sadness inside of you stops feeling like such a heavy weight. I don't know if it ever goes away, but you learn to carry it.

Speaker 2:

You learn that you can experience other emotions too, and it's not the end, even though it feels like it. Crying truly is so cleansing. I have learned through my journey that every cry I've had is justified and needed, but there are some that I feel that are just really needed for cleansing purposes. Yeah, I can hear the tears hit the floor when I feel the heat from the tears as they swell up in my eyes and run down my cheeks. When that happens, I'm like this is cleansing. It hurts right now. This is what I freaking need.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I love that I had grown up learning to cry silently, where I did not cry out loud. Two years ago in the timeout trailer was the first time I ever cried out loud. So even though I was on the couch for those weeks before I didn't cry out loud, and even though I was on the couch for those weeks before, I didn't cry out loud, and I love that.

Speaker 1:

You've experienced that where it's like rolling down your face. It's so cleansing to be able to just let yourself go a little bit in those moments and to have the space to do that helps, because it's hard to do that when you're trying to work or just live out the day. I'm glad I had Sean to watch the kids, because it's hard to do that and, like the two weeks, I still got up and took care of them and did all the things, but I did my pajamas, I mean, like I said, then you go back to bed and whatever. But the timeout trailer was the first time I really got to experience it and know I can survive this, the sadness of it all.

Speaker 2:

I love that it's called a timeout trailer because we hear timeout and that's a form of punishment, and you're teaching and showing that in this case, it was a take five. It was a moment for myself which we all need and deserve. Susie, thank you so much for sharing what you did, and I just can't wait for you to be able to share more and to witness in real time these discoveries that are happening, not only for yourself, but for the victims, and for you to work on finding that peace, and getting to be a part of that with you is just such an honor.

Speaker 1:

I'm so glad we get to do this. I feel like we could talk about this all night, but we have someone special that's also going to share, so Susie, we got in a listener question and this is the type of question we haven't received before.

Speaker 2:

We have a great friend of the show she has been. She's become a friend of mine since, like very first episode, just messaged me, supports me, cheerleads me and has a story of her own. Because of her story and because this question, we both knew we had to have Ashley Michelle on to talk about this. So, ashley, thank you so much.

Speaker 3:

You are our favorite, you know that right thank you very much for having me on your incredible platform. It is honestly an honor thank you and what I do want to say to the listeners is.

Speaker 2:

Ashley has been a guest on the podcast several times. I'm going to put all the links into the show notes for easy access for you all to actually hear her full story. It is a powerful, incredible story, ashley. I am going to read you this question. He says hi, I'm Jake. I'm a 28-year-old from a small town. My best friend passed away unexpectedly a few months ago. We were like brothers and I'm really struggling to cope. Some days it feels like a bad dream and other days it's like a heavy weight on my chest. I've tried to keep busy, but it's not really working. Any advice on how to navigate this mess of emotions would be greatly appreciated.

Speaker 3:

So I'm gonna say that he has a little bit of survivor's guilt. Even though he wasn't there with this, I still feel like they were so close and they were like this brother dynamic. For somebody that loses somebody to suicide or loses somebody in a car accident and they pass away, you still feel that in your heart, your soul, your body, your mind. It takes a huge toll on you. Sometimes you question yourself and you're like why was it them and not me? And for this individual, he's having a hard time coping because it was so unexpected To keep yourself busy. Anybody can say that. But it's about taking day by day, minute by minute, hour by hour. It's not about rushing it. It's about understanding the process and feeling how you need to feel and being entitled to that. And that's okay. That he feels he is 100% entitled to that. He needs to take the time to do stuff for himself. Maybe some counseling or group therapy. He's more comfortable with that and sitting in a room with other people who have gone through the same scenario and relate other people might be a good thing. Or if he's not into talking with multiple people, then maybe some one-on-one therapy, finding out something that is motivating in your day, something that you can look forward to. Maybe he's really into music, gardening, drama, arts, drawing, journaling, working out, joining a fitness club or doing yoga finding something that he has to okay at 12 o'clock every day. I know that I have an hour long yoga class and I can't wait. It's going to be exciting. I don't know what to expect. It's going to be something different every week, but just having something where you know that it's going to be there and adding that into your routine so you have that little something to look forward to, that will eventually help build confidence, self-esteem and self-worth because you're taking the time to do something for you.

Speaker 3:

You also have to remember this took me a long time to really think about. For the longest time I felt the survivor's guilt and I didn't feel worthy to get up in the morning. I didn't feel worthy to get dressed, I didn't even feel worthy to take a breath and I had to come to terms with the fact that I'm here. Yes, nathan's not, but I have to live out his legacy and I have to be the one to take the stand and help serve some kind of justice, because he can't be here to take that stand. So I knew they had a job, an obligation, a responsibility. They were like brothers. He needs to see that he has a responsibility to look out for the deceased's family. Be that support, maybe get together with them once a week for coffee dinner and keep up that relationship, living out their legacy.

Speaker 3:

Helping with different projects in the community for Nathan that's now my purpose Writing my book Finding Strength Through Tragedy and having those proceeds go to survivors of crime that's honoring and living out his legacy. There's different projects in your community. Maybe this individual volunteers at a police station. That will definitely help build self-esteem, self-worth and confidence because he's able to use his personal experience and relate it back to other people, if that's something that he's interested down the line. I think it all comes to having that supportive network around you. It comes down to finding your inner beauty and what you're passionate about. I am passionate about giving back because it's the same thing Nathan would do if he was here. Maybe he's got to sit and reflect on what would my brother do if he was here. How can I live out his legacy in a respectful, kind, loving, caring way? That's the advice I can give.

Speaker 1:

Would you say how long did it take you before you were able to function in this capacity of compassion and giving? Because there's this whole amount of time where everything is just broken, like your life is shattered. It is honorable to take that time. To get up and go after that is damn near impossible. So how long did it take you before you got to this place where you're talking about all the stuff you were able to do, like your book and for Nathan?

Speaker 3:

It took me a really long time, I'll be honest, probably a good four years because, all honestly, I will admit to you guys, the trial was almost as hard as the day that I was in the place, only because you're reliving all the trauma again. I had a month worth of court prep before the actual trial. I was coming into the court every day revisiting my 911 call, revisiting my statements with the officers. It was ongoing triggers. When this all first happened to me, in 2016, I became so antisocial. I didn't, I just went to work because I had started a new job that I couldn't miss. So I would go to work and I'd come home and I just want to sleep. Yeah, I didn't want to go out with anybody. I didn't want to function.

Speaker 1:

I didn't even want to be alive. I totally understand that feeling and it's commendable to be able to do even just the one thing of getting up and going to work. Like amazing, getting up out of bed is amazing. Sometimes on certain tastes like that it's so hard. And then to prep for a trial too, wow, I don't know if this ever happened to you guys with your police stuff and court case stuff where you're like what clothes do I wear? Or like how do I know? There's nothing out there, there's not really any guide for how to be a part of the criminal process, the justice system. Have you guys noticed that it's very just going around in the dark as you try to make it through? Did you guys ever have anyone that would help you with that stuff?

Speaker 3:

I can't tell you how many times I just fall in the courtroom. It was awful. When I revisited the whole police stuff, it was awful. I tried to stay strong, especially around Will Will, to not let him have that power over me, but it was hard. Even seeing him this past March, after I cried before, still seeing him is earth-shattering. It really is. It's the biggest heartbreak. I don't think.

Speaker 3:

Do I believe in the death penalty? Not really. But do I believe that you should be able to get out of jail by 2030 when you've taken a life? No, I don't. I think that you should be in jail for the rest of your life. When you've taken somebody else's life, why should you get a second chance at life? It makes me so angry that I would love to sit here and tell you guys, you know what? It's great he's in jail, that's it. But it's not like that at all. Like they give them so many things and temporary escorted access to go, and like now Will's claiming that he's religious, oh, and he's claiming that he's aboriginal and yet he's Guatemalan. I'm really having a tough time with how much power they actually give to the person that committed such horrific act versus the survivors, witnesses, family of the deceased.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the justice system is definitely, and what I've learned is it's not there to help you heal. No it's not Not to expect that level of closure from it doesn't happen.

Speaker 3:

I reached out to my member of parliament Him and I have had several conversations over the phone because I feel like things need to change. Things need to change because serial killers and child rapists getting out of jail I don't think should ever be a thing. I can see minor crimes like stealing drug possession. Sure, those people have the ability to change.

Speaker 2:

For someone who does not know your story. Could you give us just a few little cliff notes of your trauma that you're referring to?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, back in August 28, 2016, I was a witness to a homicide and I was strangled, assaulted. I didn't think I was making it out of there alive. It was very horrific. I also attempted to take my life at one point because I felt so much survivor's guilt. As I've said before on this podcast and another podcast, this is still something that is unfortunately, ongoing. I wish I could say it was a thing of the past. It's really about helping as many people as I can, and I feel like through sharing my story and talking about it isn't me living in the past. It's me wanting to be that teaching tool, that teaching lesson to other people so I can help inspire and motivate change as much as I possibly can.

Speaker 3:

Unfortunately, what happened to David and I and yourself? This is a worldwide epidemic. There are so many survivors and witnesses every single day. I wish I could tell you that I was the only one that went through this, but unfortunately I'm not.

Speaker 3:

And the biggest thing that got to me isn't just because of the incident, but detectives sat me. They said to me please make us a promise that you won't turn to the streets for drugs, prostitution, etc. That stood in my head forever because they didn't tell us what happened right away. Can you make us this promise that tells you how many survivors and witnesses end up turning to the streets and then they have this huge addiction, like now? When I see people on the streets, I ask myself what horrific trauma did they go through to get to that? It really shined a light on that for me, because I didn't understand before all of this. There were so many people on the streets and now it's giving me insight. It's honestly giving me compassion and empathy towards those people. I can't tell you how many times a week I call 911 because I see people overdose. I can't just walk by them because I know, at the end of the day, that somebody's daughter, somebody's sister, somebody's aunt, uncle, brother and I can't just walk away from that anymore.

Speaker 1:

What would you say some of the strategies you found were helpful in coping through your grief and loss.

Speaker 3:

Oh yeah, the gym saved my life 110%. I go to the gym for my emotional wellbeing, uh, to build my self-confidence, my self-esteem. The gym has honestly been the thing that has 110% saved my life, no questions asked. I can't tell you how much it rebuilds you as a person. I was into the gym before this happened to me, but when I got back, it wasn't just working out to lift a weight and look good, I was working out my entire body. The gym, for me, is a beautiful thing. Everybody's going to have something different. Everybody's going to have a different interest. Rather that's art therapy, rather that's your positive support network, which I did have as well, and that helped me hugely.

Speaker 3:

If I didn't have all these people that rallied around me, I don't think I'd be in the place that I am today. I had the deceased's family and I had family of my own family that became friends, family, that were there for me during the trial, wiping my tears and being supportive. I still keep in touch with my detectives. I am forever grateful for the people that stood by my side, even when I told them leave me alone, I'm fine, I can do this myself. They still stood in my side Even when I told them leave me alone, I'm fine, I can do this myself. They still stood in my corner. I'm truly grateful and humble for everyone.

Speaker 3:

And you mentioned that you have a dog there with you. He's my black German shepherd. I'm sure you've seen TikTok videos of him. He is a life changer too. I had German shepherds growing up, but I've never been into dogs more than I am into. He's like my son, like I just I get withdrawals when I go to work and I miss him so much. He's really helped me. He knows when I'm sad, like he sat there in March when I was going through this court process again. He sat there and just was there for me. He was like just this support that I can't even explain and comfort for me. I love this dog dearly. He's the love of my life.

Speaker 3:

I was very fortunate to have my boyfriend's support. I'm fortunate to have my stepdaughters. So I think it comes down to the people you have in your life and what are you doing to help you cope in the process. And for me, like I said, that was the gym. For other people it's going to be different. It's really based on your interest in your hobbies and what you see yourself and what you desire to do with your life and where you want to go. When COVID happened, I just I actually came up with the title on my book. Before I even came up with the words, I knew that I wanted it to say something about strength, because everything I do starts and ends with strength.

Speaker 2:

Which we're going to talk more about that book in just a second, but I do want to ask you you had mentioned your support team and I'm so glad that you have that.

Speaker 3:

And you are a part of that.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, from beginning to end. You're stuck with me now. Even though some of us have been so blessed and so lucky to have that support team, not everyone is. Even if you do have supportive people in your life. There's a different fear now. There's a different trust now, if there is any trust at all. How did what you went through impact your relationships with the people who were in your life before your trauma and the people in your life after your trauma?

Speaker 3:

I love this question, david. It was an eye-opener, it was a game changer. I cut out any and all toxicity that was bringing me down because I was having anxiety, ptsd and depression. I couldn't have any toxicity in my life. My biological mom was in and out of my life and when the situation happened she's I can't eat, I can't sleep. I'm so stressed out. I had to cut ties once and for all. One of her words to me was I haven't said I told you so yet I couldn't deal with that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, my biological dad was trying to get in touch with me and he was abusive, just so bad. I called the police and he was told that if he contacts me again, he would go to jail. And I really needed to cut ties with anything that was going to bring me down. I only needed things that were going to inspire me and make me rise to the top again. So it really came down to and this is the part where I know people struggle with is they're like, they're my family, they're my flesh and blood. But that's not true.

Speaker 3:

Family is anything you make it to be. It does not have to be blood related. My stepkids I would die for them. They are absolutely everything to me, and if me and my boyfriend broke up tomorrow, I would still be in touch with them. I would still do everything that I'm doing for them Now. I've been a part of their life for the past three years and I love them as if they're my own. You make your own family in this life. Family is not defined by blood whatsoever. It's the people that are going to be supportive and help you become the best version of yourself that you can be and bring out those positive traits in you, not bring you down. Especially when you're at your lowest, you really have to sit down in the self-reflect and ask yourself who are the people that I want in my life and who are the people that I need to cut ties with and shut that door for good.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's funny how stuff like grief and the loss of someone just brings out certain parts of a person's character that you never noticed before. You find there are some people that are so incredibly kind and then you find some people that you used to think were amazing and then all of a sudden they are just douchebags where you I mean you just they bring you down. I'm glad you were able to recognize that and find the people that are helping you road.

Speaker 3:

Patty Chelsea and Jane Chelsea's pretty much my sister. Patty's like my mom and Jane's like my second mom. They were there for me every day throughout the trip. They sat there, held my hand, wiped my tears. They were my rock and I will never forget the amount of support that I had from them. The amount of support I had from Nathan's family was incredible. I could not be more grateful and blessed. And David's right, we don't all have support teams and you know what. And if we do, sometimes all they are is negative support. So that's where you got to sit down and say you know what, even if that leaves you with nobody. Sometimes you're better just doing things on your own than you are having toxic people in your life.

Speaker 2:

An awakening that I had during my trauma was we are programmed to think there's a good bucket and a bad bucket, and who goes in which bucket, and there were some people that were nothing but great to me but, then my trauma happened. They didn't know how to deal with it.

Speaker 1:

No.

Speaker 2:

I had to realize that their job was simply done. That was a pill for me to swallow because they didn't mean harm with it. They just didn't know how, and I had to be okay with that. You can have your supporters, who are there thick and thin. You have the people that are there until shit gets bad. My last question before we talk about the book what techniques during your processing of grief, trauma and loss, when you're recognizing that you were a victim of something brutal?

Speaker 3:

See, it's hard for me to say that, because I never really felt like a victim. To be honest, I always felt like there are people in worse circumstances and that's what I compared it to. I never really felt like I'm a victim. I'm like what, if this was a seven-year-old that experienced? I guess you compare a lot when you go through trauma. It sounds weird, but you do. You think it could have been a lot worse. I could have been lying in the hospital for this amount of time.

Speaker 3:

What happened to me was horrific. However, it opened my eyes to a whole bunch of things that I never saw coming, like PTSD, anxiety. I probably had anxiety growing up a lot, but the depression and the crying outbursts in public and everything like that, it was out of control and PTSD. To this day I didn't believe my doctor. I was like no way, I just didn't go to the military and fight a war. What are you talking about? I don't have PTSD. When she went through all the questions and I gave yeses to everything, it was really hard for me to face but, I did, and then I went and sat down with a nurse practitioner every single week.

Speaker 3:

I sat down with a counselor every week and I worked through those. I think the techniques, as far as grief goes, is what really helps me after all of this, because my life is finding strength through tragedy. My life is this book. I feel every time I go through something it's another chapter. Rather, that's the court. Rather, that's trial Rather. It's another chapter Rather, that's the court. Rather, that's trial Rather. It's just an upcoming hearing. Rather, it's getting mail coming to me about his testing scores.

Speaker 3:

I feel like it's an ongoing chapter, but again, it's about reaching out. I still keep in touch with my counselor, which I am forever grateful for, and her and I will sit down and we'll talk about everything. She'll ask me how I'm feeling grateful for, and her and I will sit down and we'll talk about everything. She'll ask me how I'm feeling about it, what can I do during the process so I'm not feeling so anxious like having my dog right beside me, the deceased's family support, having my boyfriend's support, having Patty, chelsea and Jane's support, just having my aunt, my grandma, surrounding myself with the right techniques that are going to get me to where I need to be and not keep being stuck in this moment, because I know that there's going to be a lot more moments coming up. The present for all.

Speaker 3:

I know the future, and that's the thing with these hearings and stuff. You never know when you're going to get a letter. You never know when you're going to get a package and you never know when you're going to get a letter. You never know when you're going to get a package and you never know when you're going to have a hearing. I got the letters and everything and then, a couple months later, we were having this hearing. You have to live your life, but you also have to live it with the expectation that this isn't over, and you have to face that head on. It's going to be ongoing, but I can't live it in the dreadful until that day comes up. And then that's when I know, okay, this is when I got to sit down with my counselor and come up with an action plan, a game plan, so I'm not going to lose control and lose all the progress that I've made.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love hearing you talk about it like this and I think part of the reason I brought up the questions about the justice system and navigating it, and so many aspects and factors go into it. I love that you have this amazing support team that has helped you through it. For me, in the situation I'm in, there are police officers that are not as helpful. Just trying to navigate it on my own to a certain extent has been really hard, and I think we could probably end up doing a whole podcast episode on the justice system. All three of us have had such different experiences with it. I am so glad that you have had caring people surround you as you've been through this. There's something so healing about kind people saying kind words and helping you know what to expect, even though it's always like this looming dragon, nightmare, dark cloud coming up for your future. I'm so glad you have this light in the darkness to help you face it. Ashley.

Speaker 3:

You know what. I am so blessed and grateful. I can't even begin to tell you that enough. Even with you and David. Your support means everything to me, my counselor being as kind as she is we still have check-in sessions and everything. I wouldn't be where I am today without her and she's so great. She understands when stuff comes up and she fits me right in her schedule. I am truly blessed and forever grateful for her and the support network, my book and getting my story out there. People actually purchased my book, sending that money to the police to help other survivors and witnesses. The police to help other survivors and witnesses. I've had a great police team. But again, this is something we could also have a whole podcast on Our victim services over here is 8 till 4.

Speaker 3:

We all know that crime doesn't stop. What do you tell somebody at 4 pm? Come back tomorrow at 8 am. Who does that help? This is why there needs to be 24-hour supports in place. Let's face it crime doesn't stop. It happens at all hours of the night and you can't tell somebody who's just gone through the most horrific trauma, okay, wait until the morning. Especially to a 14 or 13-year-old girl who is still developing brain functions. You can't take away that help from people and that's what people are missing. We have so many people turning to the streets because of the lack of support. I was lucky that my detectives got me a counselor's number right away. I had their numbers, the police station numbers. They gave me a file book full of contacts. I was blessed, but a lot of people don't have that same experience. I still keep in touch with my detectives and they are amazing, kind-hearted, remarkable people.

Speaker 2:

Before I get to my last question, I've always liked to ask people how they resonate with the word victim versus survivor. Just personally, for myself and that is the only way that I mean it I was a victim of something ugly. I became a survivor and a thriver because of who I am and what I've done, and so it steered me into a direction to where I'm not as mad at the word victim. What I think is so cool about that is there's no right or wrong with it, and it happens with people in different ways and at different times.

Speaker 3:

When you're developing your self-confidence, self-esteem and self-worth. This is just my personal thinking on it. The word victim I think that downgrades your self-esteem, your self-confidence. When everybody looks at you like, oh, here comes the victim in the room. Like how I felt personally towards it and I never wanted that to be it. I wanted people to look at me like she's a survivor, she's a warrior, she's courageous, she's brave. I want to uplift other people. I don't want them to constantly feel like they're just a victim in the room or in the courthouse. Yeah, I just want people to feel like they're just a victim in the room or in the courthouse. I just want people to feel like they're uplifted, they're becoming something, they're helping create justice by giving their impact statement. That takes such incredible strength For me personally, when I went up on the stands, I have the word strength on my arm and that's what I looked at. That's what I thought about it is I'm going to have strength.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to get through this with strength and that's what kept me going. I love the and this was going to be one of my questions honoring Nathan and what you guys went through. I find, for my experience, I have a lot of symbolism that I put into different aspects of my journey. I love that you had that written on your arm and had that there with you, and tonight I'm wearing, as we talk about this, my necklace for the victims of my dad. Each one is different. It's something that I can use when I'm stressed out too, to touch their sharp and smooth parts. And then also, when I first got it, it was heavy, almost like the burden, the grief that comes with, and I know eventually I'm going to get a tattoo of it. I just to always be able to have it with me.

Speaker 3:

I have Nathan's picture up. I have a fan that his family gave me. I have a bunch of thank you cards from them that I still have in my room, so I just try to keep his memory alive. As much as he loved bow ties, we have all these bow ties that you can put on your shirt that are little pins. It's really nice having those memories. Oh, and we have the Nathan Deslip sunglasses, which are really nice too. These are the beautiful sunglasses here. They say Nathan C Deslip Memorial Fund on them and Nathan's favorite quote was if you never try, you'll never know. He was very much into inspiring others as well. He had a lot of quotes written down throughout the years. At the latest celebration we actually had for him back in the summertime at Nathan's Urban Garden, we had a hat full of his favorite quotes. We gave away those sunglasses to like the community right, like it's, there's pink, there's green ones, like it's a different way of remembering him and his characteristics and who he was a guy that loves colored sunglasses and bow ties.

Speaker 2:

That's what we want to remember him as you're such a big part of our growing community and we can't thank you enough. I really appreciate you taking the time to take this listener question and wear your delicate gloves with it, but still have that raw vulnerability with this person acknowledging the fact that you're going to have bad days and that's okay.

Speaker 3:

It's okay not to be okay. You need to feel how you need to feel, when you need to feel it.

Speaker 2:

What I would love for you to do, and I will share the information in the show notes as well, but tell us a little bit about your book.

Speaker 3:

So this is my book Finding Strength Through Tragedy. It is like my personal journal entry and I wanted it to be relatable. I talk about domestic violence, the trial, the court process. I talk about who I am today. I talk about mental health, ptsd, depression and anxiety and really give an outlook, because so many people don't think about the word strength until they're faced with something where they have to. Finally, this is where I need to use my strength and that's where strength comes into play. We often don't think about strength until we're forced to, and so it's right in front of us.

Speaker 3:

It talks about self-affirmations, but you are in rebuilding yourself and taking the time to develop a healthy relationship with yourself. If you don't have a healthy relationship with yourself, how are you going to have a healthy relationship with other people? My supports at the beginning. I just it's incredible how it's helped, healed me and it's transformed me, and I wanted to make it relatable to other people as much as I possibly could. It's helped me, help inspire other people and the support I got with writing my book, the number of people who purchased it or the number of people who wrote a quote in my book it's just, it's beautiful.

Speaker 1:

How do you process your grief when others won't recognize the loss?

Speaker 3:

How do you process your grief when others won't recognize the loss? Yes, I've had people come up to me and be like why are you upset? This has happened in the past. But what people fail to understand is this is the past, this is the present and this is the future. I could be having the perfect day spending time with my family going to the fair and then all of a sudden, I check the mailbox and bam, there's a letter. So it's not living in the past. But here's the thing If you don't sit down and take the mail and look at it, you're avoiding it. You need to sit down and properly go through it. If you want to cry when you get that letter, if you want to scream, do whatever you need to do.

Speaker 3:

I truly believe that if you don't feel things in that moment, you are just running from them. Face everything head on, talk about it. Sometimes I call Patty, jane or Chelsea. Sometimes I even call Mona, nathan's mom, and say look, here's the letter. I don't know how to process this, I'm so overwhelmed. You have to face things head on at times and understand that it's okay not to be okay. Those people don't get to tell you how you should feel about it. You're allowed to feel any way that you want to feel about it, as long as you keep going to work and living your day-to-day life. As long as you keep going to work and living your day-to-day life, I don't think there's anything wrong with feeling upset. As long as you keep moving forward and pushing both feet forward, you keep going. There's nothing wrong with sitting and processing your feelings. You're not healing if you can't go through your feelings and talk about them openly and honestly.

Speaker 1:

Man, I love that so much. If you can't go through your feelings and talk about them openly and honestly, man, I love that so much. I wrote down a note to myself as you were talking. There's a level of bravery that comes with grieving and just even acknowledging it and taking those steps. Like you said, open the mail, make those calls, reach out and connect to people through this great loss. And I just made a note to myself be brave. I've put off some phone calls. I've got to make it's easy to avoid it or to pretend that it is just stuck in the past and it's not. I feel like you're so brave, Ashley, and I love that you're able to share that with our listeners that bravery.

Speaker 2:

Susie, we knew Ashley was the perfect one to talk about this and I hope that Jake was able to find some comfort. And as we're starting to wrap up, susie, I would love for you to reel us back to bay with one of your loving motivational statements. To bay with one of your loving motivational statements.

Speaker 1:

This is a topic we don't shy away from. We use these for ourselves, but we also want to use the validation statements, letting our listeners know how strong they are and how much we really respect and value them, and so this is such a hard topic. Healing from loss takes time. You are not alone in this process. You can work to find ways to honor your grief and support yourself on your healing journey. It's possible, and I think it's important to remember you're not alone. Important to remember you're not alone. You have the strength to save supportive people who give you the space to grieve in all the ways. You should honor the grief, the loss that person has experienced the community that we're building.

Speaker 2:

I'm so proud of it and and and so honored to be a part of it Me too. I think this would be a perfect time to do the Survivor Slay. We got an email and this story especially in what we're going through in the States right now as far as political things and discrimination just swept me away. The email says I'm a 16-year-old non-binary teen being bullied for being different. I've struggled with self-harm and anxiety, but finding a supportive community online has been a game changer. Connecting with other LGBTQIA youth who understand what I'm going through has helped me feel less alone.

Speaker 2:

I'm slowly learning to love myself for who I am. I'm celebrating the hell out of you. I'm so glad that you put up a good fight against the self-harm and the anxiety and I trust and believe that, with the strength that you've built yourself and with the community that you found, and even being a part of our community here at the Process process that if those dark thoughts happen again, you have an amazing, loving community. Thank you so much for sharing that and I'm sorry. I'm sorry, people are ugly, but I'm not sorry of the string you are building because of the ugly. In spite of it, absolutely, I'm so proud of you.

Speaker 1:

I'm just so glad that they are able to connect with other people who care.

People on this episode

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David Keck

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