A Girl Hidden'...-ISH

Surviving Ish: Trauma Triggers, Toxic Positivity, and the Relief of Losing an Abusive Mother (with Jesse, author of Girl Hidden)

Host David welcomes Jesse Gibbs (author of the memoir Girl Hidden) to Surviving Ish for a wide-ranging conversation on how scent and the body can trigger trauma responses, referencing The Body Keeps the Score and the difficulty of trusting intuition. They discuss “solving” feelings instead of feeling them, gentle self-parenting, and rejecting labels like “survivor,” “resilient,” or “hero” when they’re used to shut down vulnerability. Jesse shares her current “ish” about shoppers abandoning meat in non-refrigerated aisles and how small kindnesses matter. The conversation turns to Jessie learning her abusive mother has died, prompting reflections on relief, grief, and closure, plus a brief overview of her childhood abuse, kidnapping, and estrangement. They critique forgiveness as “clean slate,” talk about autonomy, appearance, purity culture, and end with support, validation, and Jesse’s thoughts on possibly writing another book. #books #author #podcast 

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59856769-girl-hidden

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/surviving-ish-podcast/id1572182113?i=1000626284084

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

The only thing more exhausting than solving a problem is explaining why the problem is not your fault. Welcome to Surviving Ish. I'm your host, David, and I'm so excited about the guests we have today. I will share the link to an episode I did with Miss Jesse at this point several years ago. But you have an incredible story. You've written a book called Uh Girl Hidden, and it's it's a memoir. And I can't wait to have this conversation with you. You've remained a friend. That's one thing that I love about the people that I've had on, is there's very few that are still not a part of my life. I'm going to start the show out with this before we get to the ish. One of the things that you and I have in common that I remember that almost kind of bonded us is we both like candles. And so I didn't like mine. I didn't like mine yet until I was with you. Usually I have it lit before I start, but I wanted to light it with you. And it's wet and I love it. Love it's so good.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

I'm working really hard on like getting into the fall spirit. Like I love spooky season, but I'm very much a summer girl. And I have a pine candle right now, and I also have a pumpkin spice, which I haven't had in my house in a really long time, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

So before I get too far off of things, but like I think that we get to a place, and maybe it's wishful thinking, maybe it's toxic positivity, maybe both of those things can be true. But when we think about memories and something being triggered by like can't, you know, the smell of candy or the smell of like homemade biscuits or cake or or candle or cologna perfume, I think that we automatically want to think that that is taking us to a lovely memory. But that's not always the case. And and then and then our defenses go up, right? Like I've smelled certain colognes um out in public, like someone walked past me, and all of a sudden my I noticed that my breathing is different.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

And that your heart rate goes up, and that's your body goes into like protective mode without you even knowing.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Yeah, yeah. It makes me wonder how many times I've smelled um uh the scent of maybe a man that my body remembers from my attacker, but I didn't know my attacker, right? Like it now don't have memories of those things, but but the body remembers.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Yeah, there is a uh an I don't want to say it's an excellent book because there are some things in it that are problematic, but there's actually a book called The Body Keeps the Score.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Body Keeps the Score, yep.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

And it it had some really salient points about like, okay, you may not like it's not in the frontal cortex of your brain. Your body is going, you are not safe. And the thing we have to take into consideration with all of that is as humans, like we've only been around on this planet for like you know that long. We're still, you know, 10,000 years ago, which is a blink in the world. We could hear a sound and know, is that a deer, is that a bear, am I being hunted? Right. And you know, those we could smell the smell. Is that a safe smell? Is that a not safe smell? And our bodies automatically know. And I think that historically they've proven that those things pass down generation to generation, including trauma. I mean, it's got its pros, it's got its cons, just like so many things in our bodies. But yeah, it's it's one of those things where like when when they say listen to your intuition, listen to your intuition.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Yeah. And that is something that uh I'm working on, you know, like I have a hard time trusting my gut. And and and it's because where I'm in a place of I've always been told trust my gut. Well, now I'm making the conscious effort to trust my gut, and my gut is telling me this. But I'm like, but am I trusting it because it's my gut, or is it my brain trying to or something trying to um make me think that this is my gut telling me this when it's not because now my body is against me, right? Like like and and and and but but but the truth in most cases is probably the fact that it's a victim trauma response. My body's not to get me, my body is here to protect me. Exactly. But I have to do that.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Yeah, do you find that you try to do you find that you try to solve the problem of why you're feeling the way that you're feeling more often than you feel the way that you feel?

SPEAKER_00 5:05

Yeah, yeah. I spent a tough one. Focusing on how to correct something that because I'm told that feeling a certain way, or we've been told um by society or or whomever, um, that feeling a certain way means you're broken, means you're damaged. And so when I'm feeling when when I have anxiety, I'm like, oh, well, of course, my insurance company is going to deny this, and and this isn't real to this person, or someone's gonna say, well, that's your scapegoat. And so I'm in the cycle when I need to say, you know what, fuck them. I know my body, I know what I'm feeling, and now what do I do to correct that or or or to nurture that?

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Yeah, listening to your internals is really hard. I will say, one of the things that's actually been the most healing for me, and we're talking like eight years of therapy, okay? And I was in therapy for three years with my therapist before she finally went, You're a really good storyteller. And I was like, I mean, yes. I mean, yeah, thank you. And she's like, No, seriously, anytime I gently push on a feeling that you're having, you change directions and tell a story. And I've been following along, and I've just realized over the last few weeks that you're trying to solve the problem of why you feel the way that you feel instead of feeling the way that you feel. And I'm like, what? Uh-huh. No, no, no, no, we're not no. And it it takes like, um, thank God for TikTok, uh, because learning about gentle parenting and having grandchildren has changed my life. Like, even little things, like, okay, I'm having a rough day, my brain's not in it, I'm in a fog, I don't feel good, whatever the situation is. I will literally go, okay, if my sweet grandson came to me at the age of 12, well, he's 14 now, but if he came to me and said, Emma, I don't feel good. Buddy, what's going on? Well, I'm a little nauseous and I'm just really tired today. Would my response be, Well, buck up, Bucko? We got work to do. No, no, no, no, not in a million years. I'd be like, Oh, buddy, well, what did you eat? Have you had anything to drink today? Do you want some ibuprofen? How about we pick a movie and we'll curl up on the on the couch, make a nest, okay? I would care for him above all else. That would be my absolute drop everything. This kiddo needs some love. Why why would I not do that for myself? And so learning how to gentle parent all of those different parts of yourself is vital, and it has literally changed the way that my internal voice goes, which is pretty cool. Not perfect, but getting there.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Well, well, 100, because I mean things change per generation. And and as people will learn, you know, throughout this conversation, and if they haven't heard your story yet, a lot of this territory is uh still fairly new to you with having with with with being a loving, supportive parent, aunt, uncle, cousin, godparent, uh, grandparent, you know, um, um there there's a there's a lot of new territory for you, which we'll put a pen in and get to. So before we get too much further, okay. Um just because I'm I've been really bad and my producers have been like because the conversation gets so deep, I forget about the ish.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Oh yeah, let's talk about the ish.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

So let's we're we're putting some pins and things that we just discussed because they're all very important, but I cannot wait to hear what you're surviving ish in your life right now.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

So, okay, so are we doing so when we talk about the ish, walk me through this. Is this like a pet peeve, or is this like a this is the challenge I'm facing right now? These are things right.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Well, well, either or there's no wrong answer, right? It's like like I find that mine are just like petty, stupid little things, but in place to be like, I understand that you're 80 years old and you can't move as fast as I can, but I need you to be a little courteous and just maybe get a little closer. Like my mine are petty, sometimes bitchy, so there's no right or wrong answer.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Okay. Well, you know how everybody talks about like there's a whole conversation about taking your cart back when you go to the grocery store, right? Just that boy, all right. And I will, I will literally, if I see carts wandering about, I'll just be like, all right, well, this is what I'm doing now to make sure nobody's car gets dinged, whatever. But that's you know, everybody's got that. Mine, and understand, I've never worked in um a grocery store, I've never worked in a big chain store. The closest I came was working at the uh fancy schmancy gift store at the inner city commune, which was swanky AF. Um, but in a grocery store, the amount of times that I have found meat sitting in like the cereal aisle where somebody will be like, or the candy aisle, where they'll be like, Oh, do I want hamburger or do I want dubbed chocolates? Somebody get the dove chocolates, and then they leave the meat sitting there. What why? Why? Why I and just that that that'll get me that'll get my toenails curled pretty damn quick.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

That's a good one. That's a good one. Because because I understand that we're gonna change our minds sometimes, right? Like, no, absolutely sounded good, but but the hamburgers I can have and I can afford enough to have maybe lunch tomorrow, and and the bonds are also on sale. But that doesn't mean take the steaks out of your buggy and place them on a shelf that is not a cooling unit.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Thank you. Because now that is now, I mean, okay, big grocery chain, uh screw you guys, but at the end of the day, you're uh you're allowing food to go bad. They can't put that back in the freezer now because we have no idea how long it's been sitting there. And my daughter-in-law used to work for um one of the big grocery chains up here for years, she was a manager, and she told me that at least once a week they would end up with a cart full of those kinds of food, food items that they would literally just have to throw away.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Why? And then there's this strangle-down effect, right? Like when when a company, I don't care how much money they have, when when we live in a in a in a in a world in an America at this day in time, where billionaires feel like they don't have enough money and they want to take away from the people that are making seven dollars and twenty-five cents an hour up to maybe 15. None of those are livable wages. Um, but but these people, these billionaires, we're the ones that's still paying that price. So anytime, regardless of what tax bracket you're in, when you put something like that on a shelf, we're the ones paying for it. And odds are in most of society, especially if we're doing our own shopping at Walmart or Kroger, right? We're in a certain tax bracket, whether you're wealthy or not, and we're paying for it.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Yeah. The government sure do take a bat, don't she? And the big businesses are always gonna get their pay. If they got to raise the prices on us, they don't care. And if enough of that, you know, I mean, it's just it's one of those, it's the same thing with carts. It's like we're part of a community. Can we can we act like it? Please, please, can we act like it? Can we just act like we're neighbors again?

SPEAKER_00 13:29

I'm so pro putting the cart where it's supposed to go.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

I thought you were gonna say before the horse.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Right. But you know, like I I I saw it might have been a TikTok or something, um, where someone was leaving their cart by their car and they were getting the car and they were leaving, and someone walked up and was like, like I think the TikTok is called like cart police or something like that. And which which I love. Like they made stickers and and and magnets and things they put on their their car. I need to leave my cart out in the middle, like it's kind of funny. But they went up to if if this is the same person situation, um, they went up to someone and they were like, ma'am, why are you leaving your cart? Like, someone's gonna need to park here. It could roll into someone else's car. And and she was like, you know, when you could tell she was older and she was like, you know, I'm just really sore. Um, I I couldn't get my cane and my walker, and also put the buggy where it goes. I'm having to use the buggy kind of as my cane and walker, like I do, but because I'm lazy. And and so, so she was like, you know, at the point of getting it here, I'm just so exhausted that, you know, I she's like, I feel bad for it. And you could tell like there was some real like oh wow, you know, and so I have started doing this thing, like when I get out of my car. I shop at Walmart a lot, there's one just right down the street, and it's a ma nope, well, yeah, probably, but it's a mega one. But um, um, I always try to park next to like the furthest uh uh buggy cart thing because I'm like put a step or two in before I lean up against the buggy. Sure. But if I see someone walking and they they look like they could maybe use some assistance, yeah, I ask them if I can help them. I'm like, hey, was that a good buggy? Like, did the did all the wheels work? Did it and they're like, yeah, and I'm like, well, can I can I take it for you and and keep the you know, and and so that way I'm helping them. Like I try to do those little things.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Um because I and it it makes a difference, it really does. Like, whether you see it or not, those little moments of kindness can make the difference. Um, there was a story a while ago about a young man who said that he was on his way to the bridge to jump off. He was going to unalive himself, and he said if and in his head, he was like, If anyone says hi to me in this big city, I won't do it.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Right? I remember that story.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Those little kindnesses, man, they add up.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Well, and and so and remind me, like obviously, we're having this we we we know this story, so obviously someone stopped him and was and was kind to him in some kind of I can't remember it all.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Do you remember how I I don't remember the whole story? I just remember that somebody was like, Hey, how you doing today? And was just like in passing, like you look like you needed a smile. How are things going or whatever?

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Um, and I'm gonna have to find it and put the link in the show notes because I remember that story, but of course we're in a place where just life, right? Where we remember the gist of things, but now I'm like, I want to know everything. I want the details. I want him on the show, and I want the person that said, Hey, how are you? On the fucking show. Like, those are the people we need to be talking to in today's America.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Absolutely, it's the good news we freaking need. It's the good news we freaking need because the news cycle is it's it's a dumpster fire out there, it just is. So, any of the little wins, any of the hap-this is one of the things I'm so excited that you're doing this podcast because we need good news. There's um a dance instructor who lives out here, he travels all over the world, is an incredibly talented dance instructor, and he actually has a podcast, and that's all he does is the news that is good. This is the good news, these are the good things that are happening in the world, and it's so encouraging, especially when, like, because you know, we get on TikTok or whatever, we're doom scrolling, and then you know, just you sort of sink down in your chair a little bit more. Like, all right, where we're the cute puppies and the cake making videos.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Well, you know what, you know what I and and thank you so much for saying that. There's there's a couple of things that I want to say to that, and and then I'll give my ish is someone asked me, um, you know, what was the point of me doing you know this show and and calling it surviving ish because we're so many people want to say, no, you're not a victim, you were a survivor. There's so ish to it, you know, and and and I get that, but I think there's a lot of toxic positivity behind that. Like there's some days I feel like I'm held on with duct tape and a prayer, but you know what? My prayer, my duct tape is strong as fuck. You know what I mean? Like and the uh I wanted to almost reclaim the word survivor because I found myself getting offended a lot when I would say I was a victim of a hate crime. They'd be like, No, no, no, you're a survivor of a hate crime. Um sure, but right, yeah. I was not a survivor when he was raping me. I I I survived, you know, um, but that's okay, you know, for for many reasons, but one of them is because he stuck at doing what he was supposed to do, what he was thought he was gonna do. Who his goal was to kill me, you know what I mean? Like that one and and and I was a victim in that moment. And I will not I I don't have a hate relationship with the word victim. I don't think that that that there's this negative um meaning to it for the true victim, you know, could could be what you're you what you're a victim of. Hell yeah, there's a bunch of negativity with that, you know. But but but the truth is I was a victim of something. I fought hard and and here I am, you know, and and but then I also found myself getting sorry for my monologue, but I also found myself getting triggered sometimes with with the word you know survivor. Don't tell me that. And and I don't know they have good intentions, but when I say, Oh, I was a victim of a hate crime, but here's where I am today, they're like, No, no, no, you you're a survivor of a hate crime.

unknown 20:29

Fine.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Right, but are you helping me or are you making yourself feel better? Because those are two different things, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:35

And and and maybe today you don't feel like the survivor that what meaning, meaning there's this stance on something, you know, like like I I will never negate the fact that I survived. Um, but I'm also not gonna negate the fact that there's parts of me that are are bruised, and there were parts of me that were were broken. And granted, I had some duct tape and a prayer, if you will, and and some good cement and and a lovely support, but I think that we can be all of these things, and we don't have to put so much foot. I think so many things can be true at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Agreed, very much so. Yeah, I I had a similar, and then I will let you get to your ish because we're gonna be going for days. But um, I had the hardest time with the word resilient when people would tell me, Oh, you're so resilient with what you went through. You're so resilient. Don't don't say that I'm not. I I crawled out of there with I didn't have a I you know yeah, and so it my therapist would say it to me occasionally, and I would like bristle and I couldn't figure out what it was. And then my best friend, who uh June in my book, who loves me, knows me very intimately, would say that to me, and I would just be like, No, don't. And so finally, after like many years of therapy, um My therapist said it to me, and I was like, Okay, stop. You have to stop. And she's like, Okay, walk me through this. What's happening? And I was like, there's a difference between somebody who chooses to have an experience and someone who is a victim of that experience. I'm like, look, you tell a cancer survivor, you're a hero. Cool. Sure. You tell a fireman, you're a hero. Which one of them got up that morning and put the suit on? And the fireman chose to be a hero. I was trapped in that situation. I'm not resilient because I'm this big, all-powerful, sparkly, well, nothing affects me kind of person. That's not what happened. I'm resilient only in the fact that I got up this morning and didn't fling myself in front of a bus. I don't know that that makes me a hero as much as it makes me existing on this planet. I chose to exist. And yes, sometimes that does make me a hero, but that's that's a me thing. I don't really need anybody to say that. And when I finally explained it to my bestie, she was like, Oh, I'm like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

So I think we I love that you said that because I I think that we get caught in this place of if I self-proclaim that I'm a hero for surviving what I survived, of becoming a survivor from what I was victimized as, um, and and then publicly speaking out and fighting um and sharing my story and and how and and being a loving, support, strong, safe place for other people to share their story. Um if I self-identify from those things as a hero, well, well, it's gone to your head. You're a narcissist.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

There we go. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

And I don't want to be anything, um, well, I shouldn't say anything, because I'm sure there's uh something that somebody can bring to my attention, right? But I I don't want to be identified as something that I I don't feel that I'm not, regardless if your opinion is different than mine. You know, will there come a day that um I feel like a hero? Absolutely. Have there been a couple of those moments? 100%. I think we have to, but I I don't think that we walk around as well. I did this and this person called me a hero, so I'm a hero every day. And and and so but but where we can't self-proclaim things without being a narcissistic asshole. It's like, well, I can't proclaim it, but I don't like you proclaiming it for me. So what do we do?

SPEAKER_01 24:52

There's a line from Deadpool. Oh no, oh God, don't judge me. We're having this serious conversation. There's a line from Deadpool, I think it was the second one where uh the big silver guy, whatever his name was, was like, uh, you don't wake up a hero, brush your teeth a hero, um, take a shower, a hero. It's four or five moments that make you a hero, right? And that's exactly what it is. Like, I'm not a hero because I brush my teeth. I mean, some people are, but I'm not a hero because I brushed my teeth this morning. I still put my pants on one leg at a time, unless I'm very tired and sitting down, right? I still wear have to wear socks. I have my own weird quirks and things, and life inside my head is a whole different ball of yarn, I guess, and a couple of dust bunnies, two cats and a gremlin. But it doesn't make me a hero every single day. Now, let me ask you this because you said that being called a survivor um makes you uncomfortable and makes you feel like you need to kind of challenge that as like some days yes, some days no. Do you feel like um do you feel uncomfortable when people say things like, oh my god, you're such an encouragement, you're so brave, you're you're such an inspiration. Any any of that make you twitch? No, because somebody else is saying it about you, not necessarily, okay. I was just curious.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Yeah, I mean that that's a great question. No one no one's ever asked me that, but even thinking back on it, like when someone's like, You're so and it almost goes back to that Deadpool uh quote that you just made. Like there are these moments that you're the hero. And I feel like when someone says you're a survivor, I feel like it's almost like like that um all the time, like you that means you you're you're you're this toddle all the time. Um the word is on the tip of my tongue. When when you say the words like always and never is called.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Oh you know what I mean? I'm like where it's like you you basically put a stop on the conversation if you say you always do this thing, right? I don't always do that thing, I did it twice and it pissed you off. That's a different conversation, right? And always and never shuts the conversation down.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

It's still like tell me that I'm a survivor means that I'm no longer allowed to have those weak, vulnerable moments of of what happened to me. You know, for instance at the time of this recording, um, that this this podcast hasn't even been released yet. We're hoping November, the first uh of November uh for the whole podcast. Like no nothing's been released yet. We're actually just gonna start promoting. But as of today, right now, it is October 14th. This is the anniversary or um uh October is the anniversary of my hate crime. It's gonna be 11 years. And and and sometimes 11 years seems like an eternity. But in things like this, it it seems like yesterday, because it wasn't just 11 years ago that the thing happened. There was a year of trial, there was, you know, weeks of hospitalization, there was months of not being able to drive a car be my home, you know, there was there was um years of doing damage control, people wanting to blame the victim. So, so what 11 years could seem like to to Bob down the street is yesterday to me. And and and the fact that like when someone says you are a hero, you um, or excuse me, I shouldn't say hero, um, but but you're a survivor now that I'm so we are nine days away from the anniversary. And of course that weighs on me, right? And we remember those days. Our body knows your body keeps the score, yep. And and and so, but now that I'm deemed this brave, competent fighter survivor, then that means I have to cry alone at night because I'm going to fool people or or or make people think that I was trying to fool them or or that I'm a liar in some kind of sort when they see me be weak again.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Yeah, that's yep, all of what you just said. And as far as time goes, I'm about to quote another movie on you because I quote this all the time. It was said by the effervescent LL Pool J in the spectacular film Deep Blue Sea. If you haven't seen it, go watch it. It's a great movie. Anyway, he said, when you put to he was talking about how Albert Einstein was talking about how time is relative, right? Um, and he said, put your hands on a hot stove, two seconds can feel like hours. Put your hand on a hot woman, two hours can feel like a second. Right? That that get Albert Einstein on the phone. This guy knows what he's talking about, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Like that is brilliant because I think, and forgive me for getting political, but I think where Democrats go wrong with things is they don't do a mass parade and tour of all the things that they've done successfully. It's like, okay, this was done and and and everyone, you know, succeeded from it, and everyone's good and happy. And so now, next chapter. And then you have like Republicans who will run around on this whole like pat me on the back tour. And and so that's what people remember.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

And and so that quote reminded me of that, again, not trying to make it political, but it's like we have to simplify things for us to relate to. Because as democratic as I am, sometimes I listen to them talk and I'm like, I don't know what you just said, um but it all sounds good and right, and people are cheering. And sometimes I hear like a Republican talk, and I'm like, I hated everything that you just said, but I knew the definition of every word you just said. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

And I feel like the Democrats are missing out on. I mean, bless her heart, Hillary Clinton missed a lot in her campaign with the quote unquote flyover states. Uh, pretty sure Americans still live there, friend. Pretty sure they do. And not everybody is the highly educated city, urban, you know, whatever. Like, cool, those people are great. I I have a college education. I am one of two of my eight siblings that actually has a college education. Right. And I mean, it's only an associate's degree in graphic design. I went to art school. Like, it's not like I was, I mean, my brother has like a bachelor's degree in criminal sciences and was the for like his final test, he is the number one in the country to pass like he didn't just pass the test, he passed it plus extra, plus extra. Nobody has a higher score than him. He's brilliant. Like, it's just ridiculous. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

But like, but but I don't I don't love that you tried to almost minimize what you've accomplished.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Fair. Okay, that's totally that's totally fair. Um, I mean, Sigrid Cannon was one of my professors, and I made it through her class without strangling anybody. So I I dare anyone to go to her class. She is a badass, and I still love her.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Um, she's kind of also want to throw into again. Um, I'll put the the link to the full episode um of your full story in the show notes, but we have to also take into consideration what you went through as a woman in a household or as a girl in a household where religion and certain forms of religion um was a more of uh abuse than anything, and and and what you're raised to be told the role of a woman is. And so even though we're giving your brother credit for being, you know, a genius, and absolutely he probably is, I'm not trying to minimize that by any means, but he was also allowed to uh think on a genius level. And and so I wonder if you uh uh were able to repeat and redo certain things now. I gotta list you know what I mean? Because for because for you to succeed and have the grades and shit that you did shortly after your your escape from the from from the destruction, and you did as well as you did, imagine if you were treated equally.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

Oh my god. The the who could I have been moment could have been it, could have changed the world. Give me that Nobel Peace Prize. Let's talk about it. But I mean, my my husband and I have talked about this before. Um, that because I was like, you know, I was having a moment and I was like, here are the things that I wish I was really struggling specifically with 19-year-old me. Um, because 19-year-old me ran away from my crazy psychotic, like super religious, messed up, narcissistic, abusive family, and jumped out of the frying pan right into the fire into an inner city commune in Chicago. Because you know, if you're gonna run away from home, you gotta join an inner city commune. I mean, that's just what you do.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

I read that in the book somewhere too.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

So yeah, I might have been in there. Right? And um, yeah, so it felt comfortable because I was still being told what to do, I was still expected to do certain things, right? What I wore. Um, my god, if my bra strap showed, and oh, I'm sorry, I have I don't know if anybody can see this. This is gonna be on video or whatever, but I'm I'm I'm a big-breasted lady. I got hits for days. I have a cleavage mark in a t-shirt, okay? This and I don't know how to say this to see, but this is my body, it's what I look like. But the amount of times that I, not just as a 19-year-old, but we're talking as a 32-year-old, was top two because my shirt was too low, my jeans were too tight. What you don't want to stumble the single brothers, yeah, and men are supposed to be leaders, really? This shoulder, like, oh, they can see your bra strap. At least they know I'm wearing one fuck off. No, so me. Um, so anyway, so we were having this whole discussion about like me being so angry at 19-year-old me making these dumb decisions, marrying this older guy because the ministry thought it was a good idea, and he just needed love. And where where was your self-respect and everything? And my husband, who is a very stoic, very intelligent man, is just looking at me. He's a great listener. And he's like, I wouldn't change a thing. And I'm like, Okay, I know your story. Are you serious right now? And he goes, No, I wouldn't change anything. And I'm like, but but why though? You who could you have been if what I don't understand? And he's like, every choice that I made brought me to the where to where I am today, and where I am today is happier than I've ever been in my life. And if I had made this choice and gone off down that path in the multiverse or this path in the multiverse, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't have my four kids, I wouldn't have my six grandchildren, I wouldn't have the life that I have. I wouldn't miss out on that for anything, and I'd be really bummed if you did. And I was like, Oh, uh that's fair. New way to look at it, right? Anyway, I don't know where I was going with that. Um, I just yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Well, it it it it doesn't matter, um, because it it was beautifully set, right? And I've had this conversation multiple times that I'm in a place where I would not change or take away what happened to me. Wow, and and now I wouldn't wish it on me. But right odds are I would not have a podcast, especially a mental health podcast. I mean, I may I I'm gonna give myself a little bit of a a little bit of grace and leave it here. I may have had a Days of Our Lives podcast.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Yes, I may have, but I love your stories, gotta love your stories.

SPEAKER_00 37:58

Listen, I mean, I've watched for 40 years, you know, um 38 actually.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

But I was gonna say, so when you were a fetus, hello. Yeah are you closing in on 40 for real?

SPEAKER_00 38:09

I'm 44. Yeah, I'm I'm 44.

unknown 38:12

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 38:14

I had no idea. I seriously thought you were my kid's age. I thought you were like 35 at the oldest. Thank you so much. Seriously, your skincare routine is on point. Well done, sir.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

What is Zess bar soap and Botox?

SPEAKER_02 38:31

Botox. That's what I'm missing.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

That's what it is. I love a good cheek and lip injection, Botox injection.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

There you go. Gotta get rid of the I'm getting all the little wrinkles right here. The crow's feet. I but I will say this: my mother, who's a freaking nut job, um, her wrinkles all went down, like the down, because she was constantly frowning. So she had the like browny wrinkles and the lines here and whatever. I do have the frowny wrinkle, but that's because I'm when I'm working, I'm doing this all the time.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

So I get those the 11s.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

The 11s, yes. It was one. It's but I'm getting the crow's feet now at the tender age of 48, and I love them. I think they're absolutely adorable, and all of my laugh lines go up. So I win.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

I okay, I fucking love that.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

So okay, so uh uh you just mentioned your mother. I uh I'm not gonna do my ish today. I feel I feel like I've ished um some already in this conversation. And yes, um, and I feel like with what I shared about the grocery store stuff is because that was on my list of ishes, because like the bugging. So so I've ished. I've ished, but I before before we so all right, listener, we're gonna we're gonna get into a little bit a bit of a deeper part of a topic here. Um, but luckily Jess and I are really good at like going on a fun little punchline and joke here and there, and um and and and we love it. But before we hit uh record, you were telling me that um you got a message a few days ago from your brother that your mother had passed away. And for anyone that doesn't know about Jesse's story, of course, her mother played a huge role in into um I I I you you know what I I can't speak for you, so I'm gonna let you take over from here.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Well, I'm not gonna say if it's not one thing, it's my mother. Wait. Um so yes, my mother is the evil voice inside of my head, right? Um uh just to give you like a really brief overview, listeners, um, I was put up for adoption um three times before I was two years old. Um, my mother tried to murder me after I was born. And um she got religion when I was about four, spent a year talking her dad into giving her custody of me. When my grandmother found out the abuse that was happening, she kidnapped me away from them since she still had legal custody, but it was a run and hide kind of situation because my my mother and my stepfather are dangerous humans. And then uh less than a year later, I was kidnapped out of my grandmother's house. Um, my mother and her best friend Mary Sue drove across state state lines and um, which was taking a minor across state lines for potentially immoral purposes, and that's when the FBI got involved. Um, when they lost us in the Atlanta airport, I was in hiding for almost three years, um, and I lost quite a bit of my memory um during that time. So long story. My mother, I don't know that there's a good story, there's some funny stories about my mom. Um, but the last time I talked to her was I want to say 2007. So like it's gonna been like seven, eight years, something like that. Um, and I hadn't seen her for 20 years before that. Uh, because she's crazy. And I have the letters and the cards and the notes and the journals to prove it. Like I have the data.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

And then about seven or eight years ago, there was some kind of, I guess, like phone call or some kind of no, I went and met her in person.

SPEAKER_01 42:42

I went and met her in person. I was down in North Carolina, which is where I was raised, foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains, you know. And um, I was like, I think it was the third time that I had gone down to North Carolina. I was down there with my husband, which I will say my bestie is still pissed about because she never got to meet her. She was pissed, she's like, I have walked through this with you for 20 years, and you're taking that man to me to if you want to fly down here, I uh bring your camera. Let's just do this for real. And so I uh we went down for my baby sister's uh one of my my well, my next oldest sister's wedding, and I cried. I'm sitting there with all of my siblings that my mother had worked so hard to keep us apart in so many ways, and I got to see her dance with all of her brothers, and I'm holding my little niece with all youth, and I just sit there just sobbing like it was magic. And so the next morning I got up and I got her phone number from my baby sister, and I was like, Hey mama, this is Jesse. Don't hang up. And she's like, Hi. And like, I would like to take you out for coffee or tea. And she's like, Okay, we can meet at this particular restaurant. Like, cool. She's like, Do you mind if I bring your father, my stepfather? The one who assaulted me repeatedly for you? Sure, bring him. Bring in. Now, in this small town, my family lives so far out in the boondocks that when you leave the house, you do not have cell service anywhere in the town. There is no cell service in the town. You literally have to log into the internets, right? So I text all of my siblings. I'm like, hey, just so you know, I'm going up for coffee with mom and papa, and um, I'll keep you informed. Text my bestie, and she calls me and she's all like pissed off, and then she goes, Okay, okay, okay. Most important question what are you wearing?

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Obviously.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

Wait, right, like, let's get to the gritty here. And I was like, I will keep you informed. So we go, go to the pool, walk in, there's my mom and dad. And the first thing I noticed, because my mother is five foot ten, my stepfather was well, now was, I suppose, five foot ten. My stepfather, six, two, and a Marine. They are big people. And my mother is a very was a very large, unhealthy 5'10. And she takes up all the air in the room as soon as she walks into it. She's such a big personality. Don't know where I get that from. And I couldn't believe how small they were. They were so small. And so I'm like, I sit down, introduce them to my husband. Now, my husband was raised in the Pacific Northwest, so he knows how to do Pacific Northwest knives, which is like, oh honey. Anyway, right? So my stepfather, I don't remember him saying a word. He just sat there moping, looking at me sadly. The girlfriend that got away. Fuck him. And my mother tried to control the conversation. Like she would start a conversation, you know, and then she'd be like, Well, my only goal now is to outlive my cats. And I would just be like, Really? And before I could even respond, my beautiful spouse would go, Oh, you have cats? What kind? How many? We're just gonna keep this conversation going. You don't get to manipulate shit. So I clocked it at about 25 minutes. I was like, that's about as much as I needed. Thanks. I'm not expecting an apology. There's not gonna be a good conversation. I just needed to be in the same room with them, scare the ghosts away, right? So we stand up. My mother's like, oh, well, I mean, do I get to see you again?

unknown 46:26

No.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

And I had a moment when my stepfather got out of the booth. I had practiced. I had practiced it in the mirror, I'd practiced in the car, I'd practiced in the shower. I knew exactly what I was gonna say to this man. I was gonna peel his skin off. It was gonna be glorious. Right in the middle of the Mexican restaurant in Podunk, USA, right? This white man was just gonna have his skin laying on the floor. And I have heard the phrase, not worth the breath in my lungs, and never understood it until that moment. He didn't deserve my anger. He was literally nothing. And I was like, hmm, all right. So I turned to walk out. And before I got to the door, I remembered that my grandfather, her father, who she does not have a relationship with either, had given me his phone number and said, if you do see Dolores, I'd love to talk to her before I die. All right. So I turned around, walked back, handed her the note, and I was like, I had dinner with grandad last night, you know, because I'm still in a relationship with him. And uh he said he'd love to hear from you. Bye. And I walked out, and Alex is like walking next to me, and he's like, Okay, how you doing? How you doing? And I'm like, I need a wheelbarrow for my testicles right now. I am a badass bitch. Let's go! And so 30 minutes later, in the middle of fucking nowhere, I finally log into my brother's internet and my phone explodes.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

All of them, all of my siblings had like gathered at one of the houses. Like, is she dead? Do we need to go after her? Is she been lit on fire and dumped in a lake somewhere? Is she okay?

SPEAKER_01 48:12

And of course, my bestie is like, ah, like this. So I walked in and they're all like, What happened? And I was like, I will tell you in a minute, but if I don't answer my best friend's phone call, she's gonna fly down here. So let's do that and then I'll talk. But yeah, that was, and funny enough, when I came home, a lot of the like little twitches, the little like weird eccentricities that I had, the weird fears that I had, I just watched them just sort of fall off in succession.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

It's it's a part of regaining that control, right? Right, like you when when when you get to stand up to your bully, when you get to say and and and and those are minor words to what you went through, right? But when you get to stand up to your perpetrator, your bully, your your bad guy that when when when you face the monster under your bed, right, and and you say, you know what? Shame on you. I'm good, I'm strong, I'm a survivor, I was a victim, whatever terminology you want to use, and and I'm releasing you of the control that I've let you have over me. Yep, but I'm not forgetting shit exactly.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

I struggle with the term forgiveness a lot, um, quite a bit since I have deconstructed from Christianity. Um, because forgiveness, I and please, this is this is my own two pennies, all right. So it like if you believe in forgiveness and that is how you were walking through your healing, please don't let me stop that. However, for me, because of the religious lifestyle that I grew up in, forgiveness means the slate is clean, and it's not. I no longer trust you, you are no longer a safe person. Well, you can forgive them for you. Fuck no, fuck no, they don't deserve my forgiveness. I deserve peace. That's different, and I can have peace, I don't have to carry anger necessarily anymore. I can walk through all of those emotions and I can find peace within myself that does not in any way, shape, or form let them off the hook.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

100. So I I want to respond to that. Um, and then I have a question for you. Uh so I would love, and luckily this is recorded. Um, so what I'm editing, I'll remember, but when we go live, I would love for us to talk about forgiveness because I think that means there's no right or wrong, right? It's like for me. What and and I had a whole podcast episode about this that I've had to um unfortunately delete for certain unmentioned reasons. But um I we're told we have to forgive and and it Christian, you know, God's way and all this. And I struggled with that. No one told me that forgiving me and forgiving myself was the forgiveness that I needed, right? I was put on a black part of that, and because where I'm the victim, and well, I shouldn't do quotations with that, because I absolutely absolutely was the victim, um, but where I'm the the victim survivor, to use it properly, uh, the quotations to the listener is that because I'm a victim, I thought there was no accountability, and I was told there was no accountability that I could take. But there's things I did that maybe hurt people during the confusing time that I had in recovery, and that was what was weighing on me the most, and that is what the forgiveness needed to be to forgive myself for having a a horrific reaction to the shit pile of shit I was put in. Yeah. No, no one tells us those things, right? It's like, well, no, you need to forgive him because it's what Jesus would do. And so, so, so, so let Jesus do it.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

That's on him. What does that mean to do with me?

SPEAKER_00 52:30

One of my favorite country songs, I need to send a link if you don't know it, but it says, forgive. It's a mighty big word for such a small man.

SPEAKER_02 52:40

Yes. Oh my god, that's brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

There's another one that I love. It says, Um, uh she talked about like he he is saying, Well, Jesus would forgive me. And she said, Yeah, Jesus loves you. I don't.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

That's exactly that is that and that is all on him. Y'all deal with your relationship however you need to. I'll do it over there.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

So, okay, so I want to ask you this question because you you made a really good point about something, and when we talk about the word hate and forgiveness and all these things and the pressure that it puts on the victim slash survivor more than the perpetrator. And so, so when when mother and stepfather was like, Well, will I ever see you again? And you're like, No. Um one of the things that so so what it what is different between our stories is I did not have a relationship with my bad guy. Met him one night, he did his damage. That one now there was lingerings of the damage, but I would be able to pick him up out or pick him out of a lineup, right? Like these are the people that you were supposed you were born and told you love them, you trust them. You know, so so there for the longest time, this shit was what you thought was happening in everyone else's home. You know? Yeah. And so I uh someone asked me if I hated the man that did this to me. And the first time that the quote of you can't hate something you never loved before never made sense to me. Okay. I I didn't know him before. I had no love for him before. And so when someone asked me, do I hate him? Well, I couldn't truthfully answer that question if you wanted to know what was really in my heart, because I will only use the word hate when it comes to people, maybe actions or food or whatever I'll use lightly. But when it comes to people, I uh I try to not use it lightly. And when I was asked that question, I was like, Huh, the whole thing of you can't hate something that you never loved makes sense to me now.

SPEAKER_01 55:27

Interesting. Wow. See, I would say for me, and I I don't know where I heard this quote, but I remember it being very salient when I was walking through my divorce. Um, and that was that the opposite of love is not hate, the opposite of love is apathy. And so when I let like my uh readers, the people who have read my book and who follow me on social media, know, like, hey, and I recorded, I recorded a video specifically like within the hour because I wanted to have it on video, what I was feeling, what I was going through, because everybody's asked, Are you okay? Are you okay? And you can tell the difference between like my close friends and my not so close friends, because my not so close friends are like, Oh, your mom died, are you okay? And I'm like, I asked if they stuck a stake through her heart to make sure she was really dead. So yeah, I'm fine.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

When she died, even when you were, and you know that I love and adore you. Um, but I mean, we've never met in person. We we've had now, however, I know that if I needed a a loving supporter, no doubt, something that minimize anything, but I'm not trying to grant anything either. But even when you told me before we hit record that your mother died, I said, Oh, how are you feeling about that?

SPEAKER_01 56:54

Because that's normal. If somebody's mom dies, that's a sad thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 57:01

Right, right, is it in in a world where sure in a in a better world than what your world used to be, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 57:14

And for me, the thing that I felt so incredibly powerfully at that moment was first shock, like okay, that came out of the blue because we haven't talked to her in years. The only thing we had a vague idea of where she lived, she had divorced Papa before um she uh before she passed away, she'd gotten remarried, she had completely changed her name, like full on first name, last name, middle name, completely changed. So I am not even sure how we found out that she was dead at this point. Um, but the thing that I felt so intensely was I have worked so hard in the last whatever 30 years now to get rid of the shadow in my mind, to chase it away, to think it away, to even pray it away when I was a good Christian girl, right? Like all of the things, and I thought I had, I really thought I had, but the amount of relief that I felt, like just to give you an example, when I talked to one of my sisters who's got um a son in second grade, who's just the cutest thing in the whole freaking world, and I said, You know, how are you doing? And she goes, I don't know. I'm I haven't seen her in like 10 years, I don't freaking know. I I think I'll feel something eventually. And then there was like a pause, and she goes, Huh, I guess I can call my school and tell them they don't have to look out to make sure this crazy lady doesn't show up at the school to try and kidnap my kid. That's the level of relief. Now, could I still get a random box from some random flying monkey that's a friend, was it a friend of hers when she passed? Sure. And I'll deal with that when it comes, right? But she's not gonna show up at my front door, she's not under my bed anymore, she's not in my closet, she's not hiding around the corner to look at what I'm wearing and judge me for it. I'm so glad that I don't have to wonder about it anymore. Like it's such a level of closure. I don't even know how she died. I no clue. That being said, just a little bit of tea. I did find the obituary. Um, apparently, she was still married to my stepfather. My grandfather, who is still alive, is dead. So I should probably call him and tell him that. I think he'll be shocked as hell. And all of the kids were listed, you know. Her children were dot that guess who wasn't on that list.

SPEAKER_00 59:52

Really?

SPEAKER_01 59:53

I wasn't born. I my husband's gonna be so disappointed. Here I am living my life, didn't realize I was born.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

Like in today's America, I don't know if that's a blessing.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:12

I'm like, I mean, you're not wrong. Her no, I don't know her, she doesn't go here.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:19

Honey, I've never met her, I don't know nothing about her.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:22

No clue. Um I there was a picture too, which I will say this I look so much like my mother that I went to a family gathering a few years ago, and like a long-distance relative that I have never met opened the door, saw me, and slammed the door in my face because she thought it was my mother. That's how much I look like my mom. Luckily, she's got great legs, so do I. So I'll take that. But this poor woman aged like milk, she was only 67. Oh, but a day over 90.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:56

Wait, so 67 when she passed?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

Okay, so oh oh, so because I was like, wait, they were really young, which I mean, yeah, they were so young, but uh my mother will kill me. I cannot let her listen to this episode. It doesn't be like my mother's age. My mother just turned 68. Oh, she's gonna kill you. But she turned 58. She my parents had me when they were 14. Oh my goodness. Yeah. So I was like, wait. Um, yeah. So okay. Couple things. Um when you say you look like your mother do you did you find certain pictures that you look like or that that that you had res like how do you feel that about how you that you look like your mother?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:54

I hated it for a lot of years. I hated it for a lot of years because I got called Dolores Jr. DJ. People called me DJ a lot. I talk just like her, I tell stories just like her, um, sassy just like her. Um, I talk with my hands just like her. If you really look at it though, like I'll give you an example. My mother was on the 700 club twice. Interviewed by the infamous Pat Robertson, made who rotten hell, and the stuff that came out of her mouth was so full of bullshit that Pat Robertson questioned it. Seriously, so I actually tracked down one of the videos, which is hard because this was back in the 80s, right? When she was working for Weba, and I showed I put the video on and I was like, All right, I want you guys to see this. My husband and my bestie were there, and they're both sitting there, like, ooh, okay, okay. And then she came on and she's being interviewed and she's talking, and both of them just turned and looked at me, and they were like, We know that you said you you look like your mom, but oh my god. I'm like, I know. That being said, if you look real close, I have much prettier eyes than her. They came from my father, whoever he is. Um, she has no lips. I have beautiful bow lips. The first time I heard myself laugh after I left home at the tender age of 19, I stopped mid-laugh because it sounded so much like her, it scared me. And there's a thought process that I have heard before. Well, you have to learn to love those parts of yourself by learning to love those parts of her. And fuck that shit. Because I look more like my Aunt Mabel than I do my mother. And my Aunt Mabel is a beautiful human being inside and out, so that I can love. So am I drop dead, you know, Charlie's fair and gorgeous? Absolutely not. But am I cute enough? Damn skippy.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:08

You you are yes. Um, so so here here's my thought on on this um uh uh of you looking like your mom. My question was gonna be did it were there pictures that people were seeing or videos that people were seeing where your mom was being the mother that you know, the ugly, hateful. Um, or or was she showing that the happy, bright side of her?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:36

No, the only time if my mother's mask slipped, we moved. And we moved a lot when I was growing up.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:45

And was the mask ugly and hateful, or was the mask pretty?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:49

The mask was beautiful. Everybody loved mama. Mama could talk you out of your shoes and has, and has the amount of houses that have been literally gifted to her. I can't I read the book. It's because she's she's a great salesman, she's very charismatic, she's a great speaker. I've seen her speak, she's engaging, she's funny, she's a good storyteller. All things that I am come by it naturally, right? But stepping away from her and looking at like her dad, my aunties, my uncle, same thing. They're charismatic, they're fun, they're energetic. They all struggle with some level of neurodivergence and some level of depression. My granddad says that he has lows it takes a ladder to get out of, which we all do, right? Um, but just looking at like I have photos of her where you can sort of see the mask slip, but it's not, it's very rare. Very few people saw it, and the ones that did disappeared from our lives fairly quickly.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:01

You know? Um, and and and that's okay, right? But what what as your friend I want you when you when you think of or or or reminded about or if someone says how you look like your mother, I want the next thing to come out of your mouth or mind is I look like what could have been a black mother. Oh, yes, my mother was a good person. But because I I think that we are all born good, right? It's like like we we see those pictures of you're not born racist, you're taught because babies and white babies love each other, and then all of a sudden 10 years later, they're like questioning, you know, because mommy and daddy, right? So so I would love for you when when someone says that to you, I want you to remember and well not remember, but know how beautiful you are. And and I want you to take what they are saying and suggesting, regardless of their intent, as honestly a compliment to your mother. She did good, she she picked a good man. I mean, well, I mean a compliment to your mother as in she could be you beautiful. She could have been you beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:33

Yep. And evil ages you, evil uh like hate and anger, like it ate like I was telling you with the the the um what do they call the um crow's feet? I love that I have crinkles where I smile now, and my mother's crow smile lines all went down and mine go up. And that's like I smile more.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:54

That that speaks a lot. When it, you know, like I I love to be, honey, I will go to another country, I will go to I don't care the pro like I anything you want to my lips are fake, my teeth are fake, my cheeks are fake. Um, I've had three nose jobs. I my forehead moved 10 years ago. Um what was the point of me saying this?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:24

I don't know, but I went all the way to what's it called? Um uh lost it. It's gone. You were talking about going to other countries?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:35

Yeah, but there would there was there was a a a funny reason me saying it. Um well and and I get I guess the point of what I'm saying is even though I've done these things. Oh, oh, oh, oh, that's what that's what I was back. It it's back is every um plastic surgeon, every doctor, nurse practitioner that's given me an injection of some sort has mentioned that you spent a lot of your life laughing. You spent a lot of your life happy.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:08

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:09

I would have thought different, right? Because because and most of us would, right? Because what what sticks out mostly is when someone says, tell me your story, it's not, well, I was 12 and I went to Disneyland, it's like, oh, I'm out with something horrible to justify why I had a happy moment at Disneyland, you know. And and so so what I want to say to you is, and and I think that you already know this, but when it took me a little bit of time, it's me actually having a conversation with my therapist of plastic surgeon, says that I've spent obviously most of my life happy and smiling, and I feel like he's a fucking liar, you know. Um, because they were like, you can't reverse these lines, and would you want to? These are the happy lines.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:03

Yeah, the body keeps the score.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:06

Yeah, and I love your happy lines, although I've yet to see one.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:11

You can't see them. That's what filters, all the filters. No, I have filters, that's fine. Um, I I used to actually, when I started going gray, I always wanted to go gray like mama because my mother had dark hair to begin with, and then it was really like Wonder Woman curls, like those big, beautiful, natural curls that if she had ever cared for her hair, it would be gorgeous. And it got darker and darker as she got older, and then in her mid-30s, she got a streak of bright silver on one side, like um Frankenstein's wife, and it was gorgeous. And I remember being a kid going, damn, if this is what I have to look forward to, that's amazing. I am for it. And she went to a prayer meeting, right, with all the good old Southern gals. And she's like, ladies, does this should I do something about this? Like, what do you guys think? And everyone's like, No, no, we love it. And then some 150-year-old little Christian lady goes, Oh, honey, you look just like a pole cat. So my mother's been bodacious burgundy for the rest of her life.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:11

But but I'm loving this, and and I feel like, and I could be wrong with this, but I feel like when we were doing the the Survivor stories and and you were on there, I feel like I asked you, like, what was one of the first things you did um for your appearance when you left, you know, the the this religious stuff. And and I and I could be wrong with all of this on or or how was that in the conversation, but I feel like you haven't the short hair was part of that answer.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:42

It absolutely was, yeah. Okay, because I was I grew up with an the uh there's a verse in I want to say Proverbs or Song of Solomon that the woman's hair is the crown on her head, and happy is the man who can take pride in it, because that's the most important thing, right? And the one time I got my hair cut, I had so many split-ins because never learned how to care for myself. Um, and so the lady who was cutting my hair at the Jesus People, the inner city commune, um, I said shoulder length, thinking like you know, a little below the shoulder. She heard shoulder length. Well, turns out when my hair is short, it gets real curly. So she cut it, and when it dried, it went up to my ears. And I will say this, it looked pretty damn cute. And my ex-husband, bless his sweet little heart, literally burst into tears when I walked in the room. I can't believe you cut your beautiful hair.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:40

Ex-husband.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:42

Ex-husband, asking why. Read the book, read the book, it's a great, great story. Good lord. Um, but yeah, uh keeping my hair short. And funny enough, um, I was talking, I I had another set of uh headshots done because I run my own graphic design firm and I mostly work with real estate agents, and at least six times a year I have to sit down with an agent and go, look, you're beautiful, right? Or you're handsome. Um, but this photo is either so airbrushed or you had it taken when you were a fetus. So we're gonna need you to look like you. Let's get you some new headshots. And here I have been running my business for eight years. I haven't had new headshots. I'm like, it's time. But I was getting new headshots done, and I was talking to the amazing photographer that I was working with, and um I had this like memory come back to me. My mother used to tell me all the time that I was going to be fat. You're gonna be fat if you eat like that. No man's gonna want you if you put on too much weight. Of course, I was 16 and didn't even weigh 100 pounds yet because I was never fed, but nevertheless, at some point, I got my hands on between I think it was like between 18 and 19. So somewhere in that year, I got my hands on a vintage black girdle, like the kind that's like full body girdle. And I wore that thing until I got married at 22. Um, under blue jeans, dresses, whatever, because and I mean at that point the thing's 60 years old and is literally rotting off my body, but I felt so fat, so looked at, so viewed, which is also a part of purity culture, which if you want to go on a rant about that, I got stories to tell. Um, and it wasn't until I was well into my 40s, and I'm creeping toward 50 now, but it wasn't until I was well into my 40s when I remember having this discussion with my bestie, and I was like, So how old were you when you were finally comfortable with your body? And she's like, What are you talking about? I'm like, you know, I wear what I want to wear. If I want to dress up, I'll dress up. If I want to go in blue jeans, I'll go in blue jeans. If I want to wear stretch pants and a dirty t-shirt, I'm gonna fucking wear that and I'm gonna be comfortable. And she's like, How do how did you how did you get that? What? And I'm like, whoa, this is one of those very rare moments where we are not on the same page. Really? I and I think it might it might have something to do with like maturity, growth, deconstruction, blah, blah, blah. But also something happens in your 40s where you run out of fucks, you have a very limited amount of fucks to give, right? And I don't dress for men anymore. Even if I if I want to dress up, I'm dressing up for me. And I'm really blessed because the man that I love, the man that I love is like, I just he his, so I have issues with the term love languages. There's a whole story there, but we both grew up in or lived in a Judeo-Christian, and so we'd both been through the little love languages, whatever. Fuck that guy. Um, but his is quality time, and so I had asked him one time, I'm like, hey, you know, tell me I'm pretty. And he's like, babe, you're gorgeous. And I was like, I mean, yes, but do you do you like my outfit? And he's like, Yeah. And he kind of looks down, he goes, You look like your shoes are uncomfortable. And I'm like, Well, I in high heels, it's winter and it's raining, so yeah. And he goes, Did you want to wear high heels? I'm like, for you, he's like, I'd rather you be comfortable. He's like, Look, the time that you invest in making yourself pretty, feel pretty, is more important to me than what you look like. And it just whoa, holy cra okay, so yeah, that's you know, 15 years later, I don't dress for men, I don't dress for women. I dress for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:38

I love that he said that to you because you know, it and I've had uh uh conversations about this before, but I think that and I could be wrong with this, I'm not a doctor, therapist, scientist, lawyer, none of those things. Um, I'm I do my best to be a podcaster, but I'm not even one of the elite in that. You know what I mean? Like but I think that if a woman wears uncomfortable shoes, and if a woman wears a girl and and and clothes that she's not comfortable in, it's easier for a man to get her out of those.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:22

I don't think you're wrong.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:23

So it's that control thing, right? Like, like if if I tell if I'm a heterosexual man and I tell the woman I'm trying to court that I like 10-inch stiletto, short skirts, um, low tops, even in the winter, um, this is what uh gets you to my heart, and I've got a little bit of money in the bank, whatever, whatever, whatever that is, yeah. Right. And so so I take her downtown, and she's walking from you know the Uber to the bar or the restaurant or whatever in these hills, and I and then I want her to dance, and I and I want her to be sexy because of course I need to show her off at what privileged enough to have, or or what she's privileged enough to have, whatever mindset they have. It's not gonna take very much for the man to say, let's go home and get you out of these clothes.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:23

If you're uncomfortable in it, don't wear it now. If a tube top and a pair of strip tease panties makes you feel sexy, girl, fucking do it. But no, I think it's really important, especially in today's society. And honestly, I will say this I do think the generation coming up, I think Gen Z and Gen Alpha are changing that already. Um, in little ways, right? Gotta love our honey badgers, gotta love our honey badgers. Um, but in the generation that I grew up in, like I vividly remember my stepfather taking me to one of his good Christian friends mechanic shop. Okay. I was 16, I had just gotten boobs, thank you very much, and I had finally been allowed to stop wearing long dresses and was wearing blue jeans. So I'm wearing blue jeans, a tank top, and I remember it was a yellow button-down top. And once I told you, I got cleavage to my chin on a good day, right? And this man sat there oogling me with my stepfather together, talking about how hot I was and uh da da da da da da, and whatever. And finally, after like a half an hour of this, I was like, I'm gonna go sit in the truck. I think I'd rather die. Anyway, so I left. My stepfather comes out, sits in the truck, and I'm just I am pissed. I'm so pissed. And I didn't have the words for what I was feeling at the time. I didn't have like how do you have that conversation with your dad, right? And he looks over at me and he goes, You okay? And I went, No. He goes, Well, next time just take this your shirt off, flash it, maybe he'll leave you alone. That was the advice I got from my thought.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:06

What I do not love about that. Well, I don't love anything about it, but what is about that is some people would believe let me take my shirt off and be like, all right, fucker. But he's not gonna leave you alone. That's gonna be his testimony in court that the victim was consensual.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:37

Sure. Because when you're 16, you can consent, right? Right? No, what about when you're five? Does that count? No, oh, all right. Well she was enjoying it.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:47

Ask us again in a week because I guess that's up.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:50

Oh my god. And I do the fact that there are still not just like four or five, but I think it's like 20 something states that uh still allow child marriages under the uh uh down to the age of 12. I I can't. I can't the the level of anger anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:10

Um let's add that to the ish list.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:12

Add it to the ish list. I mean, one of the things, like one of the things I did, and I feel like I did well in my book was yes, there was trauma that happened, there was also magic that happened, there was also incredible moments that happened, and I I'm so excited to be a part of this podcast because you've gone from like I I've watched you grow in these little ways just from like all this far away, and to like joy is a form of resistance, right? And you are going out of your way to go, oh yeah, oh yeah, watch this shit. We're gonna laugh our asses off, and it's gonna be magic. We're gonna dress in frog costumes and stand in front of the ice prison center.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:54

You're you're making me emotional right now, and and I love it. It's like it's a good, but but but you have like you were you were one of the the first supporters, one of the first on on my show as I started, you know, like getting some traction. And um the first live I ever did was with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:13

Oh my gosh, that's so cool!

SPEAKER_00 1:22:15

Yeah, and I just you know, even if we don't talk daily, I know that if if you saw my number pop up on your phone, even if you can answer, you'd message and be like, I can't answer right now. What's up, you know, and and and we're gonna talk. Um what I want to say to you is this I have not been through um what you have gone through with with a parent. So so take what I say as you will. Um, but I have had situations where I've questioned the emotions that I was feeling when someone passed. And I was like, but they they were horrible to me. Like, like, why do I feel a mourning? And so I just I'm not telling you anything that you don't know, but I want to tell you that it's okay to mourn the mother that you didn't have.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:21

And if I mourn, that will be what it's for for the little girl who deserved a mom, you know. I'll tell you a quick story because I I know that we could talk for hours, and I swear to God, next time I am down south, we are gonna pick a porch, we're gonna find some rocket chairs, we're gonna have some sweet tea, and we are get out. Do you have a front porch?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:40

I just had one build, they're building the awning thing right now. Yes, I have amazing. I have a porch swing and honey, we're sat. We're sat, it's happening, it's happening. I will hire someone to make us sweet tea.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:58

So when my stepfather died, I was iffy about it. My my emotions were kind of doing one of these numbers, and um, my siblings all had good relationships with him, uh, to the point where he got a military funeral because he was in the Marines for 20 years. Um, there is a memorial garden with a brass plaque and an American flag in my baby sister's yard with his name on it. And I think the man should rot in hell. And that would be a kindness for him for what he did to me, right? My best friend, um, who is uh her family are all atheist. They were she was raised Lutheran and then uh she joined the Mormon church for like 10 years, whole long story of deconstruction there, but they are uh atheist or agnostic now at this point, and so I was telling her, like, I don't know how to feel, and she's like, I'm coming over to do a funeral with you, and I'm like, Absolutely the fuck not. And she goes, No, no, I'm coming. So she comes over and with her husband, who is a doll, and it was pouring down rain, and they brought a bottle of 21-year-old scotch. I'm sorry, rum, which I love. And I'm joked that you know, 21-year-old rum, way older than he likes, ha, you know, and the way that they do their funerals in their home is um June passes out little slips of paper and ink pens, and we spend an hour, two hours, however long, writing down everything we remember about that person, from the freckles on his arms to what he did to me, to that he was my best friend for so many years, and I lost that, and just his those stupid tennis shoes that he used to wear, whatever, right? So um we sat there and we wrote down all these things and we put them all in this metal bowl, right? And huddled under my my little gazebo, and then we lit it on fire, and now we have ashes, and so for someone they care about, so like when um my best friend's husband's parents died, they mixed those ashes into the dirt with an orchid, and that's kind of like just and isn't that sweet, is that the sweetest thing? And so June's like, well, what do you want to do? Do we want to flush him down the toilet? Do we want to bury him? Like, what do you want to do with this? And I was like, I don't want him on my property at all. Now, I'm no longer a Christian, bless the goddess. I am very much um, I will say agnostic in the I know that there's a lot of things we don't know, and a lot of things that connect with me in kind of more of the witchy world, not like Wiccan, but like I find my peace and my energy by getting my hands in the dirt, right? So it I gain a lot from the earth and the moon, and those are the things that really empower me. And I was like, okay, if I had my druthers, I wish for this man that there is no afterlife that he gets accepted to, and he gets to spend the rest of eternity roaming the earth with nothing but his thoughts to keep him company. And June's like, oh, that's oh man, remind me not to piss you off. And I was like, you know what? There's a crossroads just down the street. Let's go. And the sun started to come out as we got closer to the car crossroads down at the end of my street, and I stood in the middle of the crossroads and I dumped out the ash, and I was like, fuck you, Papa. And I turned around and walked away. Before I got to my house, two monster trucks, big old tires, like big old monster trucks, came out of freaking nowhere and started doing donuts in the crossroads, the ash flying everywhere, and then they disappeared, and I've never seen them since.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:00

You know what I love about what you just said? And I don't even know that I've ever said this out loud, but I feel like if there I don't believe this. I don't believe there's a fiery pit that people spend eternity in. But I feel like if there was the spirits that were there um would would be screaming, I was the victim. I only I shouldn't burn for this. I did this we caught. Right? What what what I what I appreciate about the the hell that you were sending this person to is they would probably have enough hope to think that at the next stop sign, at the next corner, at the next turn, there's gonna be something to validate, something on the side. Um and and so he's not going to admit to anything. He's not going to he's like almost keep quiet about things and just run this sort this torment circle, knowing, knowing why he's there, but not able to say anything out loud and still not able to play a victim. And I think that is almost that a beautiful hell. I mean a beautiful hell for the people that are there that I that uh have done bad things to me, but but but it's a very uh torment hell.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:49

Yep, and eventually, if the stories are true, you're gonna lose your shit, you're gonna lose your mind, you're gonna lose your hope, and you still have to exist for eternity watching the world until it disappears, and that's on you, friend. And that that if if wishes come true, if karma is true, etc. etc. Because you know, I get asked all the time, well, did your parents go to jail? No, did they go to court? No, I just lived with this, I defended this man until I was in my freaking 30s. So, how could anything change, you know? So having that, like it just felt very empowering to me. And I say all that to say that if and when the uh mourning process comes, which I'm sure that it will at some point, um, that will be my process for her as well. I don't know what I'll wish for her, if anything. But I I agree. I don't believe in hell, I don't believe in a heaven. Um, I do believe that energy you you can't destroy it, you can't create it, which means we're all star stuff. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:01

I love that, and and I love you, and I love you too. Thank you, my friend.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:07

It's my freaking favorite. We can pass the days. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:11

I know, I know, I know. Oh my gosh, I know, and I love it too. Um, but as we're bringing this to an end, what I want to say to you, and I know that I've already kind of hit on this, but I just want to say it again. Whatever emotion you have with with the passing of your mother is all valid. Thank you. And if you call me and you say, you know what, I just need a person that isn't gonna judge me because I feel some relief, but this person is guaranteed out of my life right now. Yeah, I'm that person. Yeah, you are and you say, I know I called you yesterday, and it's not like I was celebrating this freedom, but today I want to cry. Well, I will let you cry. I probably won't because I'm probably just spray tanned and straight.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:07

There, there.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:12

I'm just crying with you. I just I just I I I know that personally I have been questioned on my uh uh changing of emotions daily as as I grow, and and sometimes when I take us a step back for a day. And I will never question that because this is a goddamn roller coaster. It it is what we have been through, what so many of us have been through, and I don't say me and me, as in we we are limited, everyone has. We just recognize it and we talk about it, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:54

Which is very rare and is so vital. It's so vital. So very much Isma, put your hands in the air, off we go.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:04

Uh-huh. So, okay, so when we get off, I'm gonna send you all kinds of things, but so I um goddamn, I love this conversation. Um, I want to ask you a question. I want you to definitely end on tell us where we can find you. Um your book was the first one, because you were one of the first authors I had um had a conversation with um via podcast and build a relationship with. Um you gifted me an autographed copy, and I've got it on my shelf over here, of your book. And and I was thinking I I love it. I I I fucking love it and and I adore you. And um, so so thank you for that. Um so my question is after writing your first book and going through all that it takes to write a book, just emotionally alone, right? What what are the emotions alone? You're in a place as of a couple of days ago that is totally different. I'm sure there there's a a sense of freedom, but a sense of like scratching my head, a sense of like what is this question mark over here for? Um, do you see another book in your future? That's my rapid fire question to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:30

It's a great question. One I actually get asked a lot, especially we people who have read my books, when's the next one coming out? And I don't know that I would necessarily. Um, that being said, if I did write a book again, uh there is a book called Um All I Ever Need to Know, I Learned in Kindergarten. And if you haven't read it, buy it, read it. It's amazing. Have you read it? Friend, I interviewed Robert Fulham right down here at Pike Place Market when I was going to school. I was like, okay, I'm running the I'm running the magazine. I need to write an article. I know it's a school magazine, but would you be willing to meet with me? And he's like, Yeah, I'll buy a breakfast. So he brought me like an autographed copy. He brought me apparently there's a 25th anniversary edition that goes back to like his wish list. You know, in his book, he talks about how he's always wanted to conduct the Beethoven's Fifth. He got to conduct Beethoven's fifth. Such a cool story, anyway. Highly recommend. But I love the way that he wrote the book because each chapter was just basically an essay. Just a this is what I'm thinking about today. This is the thing I'm struggling with. This is the thing that I think is funny. And I still write um mostly for myself. It's quite a bit of like train of thought writing or journaling. Um, so if I was to write another book, it wouldn't be like Girl Hidden, it wouldn't be a memoir. It would be more a series of things I'm considering right now. Um, but I also know how much work it takes to actually get to the point of publishing a book. So much so that this last book we took me 25 years to write. I will write another book before I ever publish myself again. Oh my god, that was so much work. Lord, but yes, great question. And at this time, no, but you know, you never know. I'm only 48, I got a lot of years left to live. My grandkids say funny stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:26

I I I love that. And and and and I want to say that, you know, my knowledge and resources and things that I've been through personally are hella different, right? Um but with with people that I've interviewed, whether their parents were if their parents were the abuser, right? And whether their parent is still alive and there's no contact, or their parent is alive and there's been forgiveness, but it's still a wall, right? Or if the parent died um before answers, you know, I just I think where survivors um and or victims, whatever you you uh choose, I think people like you would remind them of of the grace that they are allowed and and and love them through the the the today you may hate mom, tomorrow you may love dad, but it doesn't take and I don't say it takes a book to do that, right? Like that's the beauty of you, and and that's why I want to make sure that I share all the links and um and and how people can contact you and have you back. But I think that I wouldn't be mad if there was a book on the monster under my bed died today, and this is how I feel, you know? Yeah, because I think there could be a lot of um a lot of connection with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:18

Yeah, because a lot of people, it's it's a mourning process that goes like grief isn't linear, we know this. But when you're grieving the loss of somebody who's still alive out there, it's it's a whole different like you have there's all these levels you have to mourn from the five-year-old perspective, then you have to mourn from the you know, 16-year-old who didn't have the mom that she wanted, and then you have to mourn from like the adult perspective when I see like my my bestie having this amazing relationship with her daughter, and like you know, it's it's those little things. Like, I remember when I lived at the commune, there was this adorable um couple that were a few years older than me, and they had a 14-year-old daughter and a 12-year-old daughter, and the 14-year-old was just wandering down the hallway, and she's just singing her little singing songs, whatever. And the mom goes, Hey, Rebecca, come here. No, no, come here right now. And I was like, somebody's in trouble. And her mom was holding laundry and she stood up and she gave her a huge hug, and she's like, I just wanted you to know how freaking beautiful you were. And I literally burst into tears and had to go run into my room so nobody saw me because I was just like, Does that even happen?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:27

Like, am I in a homework, maybe? Like this is right, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:39:33

It would take Beg Brian and the team of producers to make this moment happen. What is going on? So yeah, it there will there will be there will be morning, there will be feelings. My my brother who um told me about mama's death, um, told me at midnight my time, which means it was like 3 a.m. his time. Um, and he's like, I said, you know, okay, I'm checking in with you. How are you how are you feeling? And he's like, I feel like guilty that I should feel bad that my mom's dead. And I'm like, okay, fair, fair. Um, I mean, you know, your feelings valid, you don't owe her that, but you know, that's totally fair, but it's unfair.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:14

We deserve it! We should we should feel bad. We are already told how we should feel about a life-changing event, and in most cases, the loss of a mother is a horrific life-changing event. Yeah, it should be not minimize the fact that sometimes the loss of a mother is a life-changing event of um freedom. Freedom.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:53

Yeah. His response was, I said, So what what are you gonna do? I mean, it's like three in the morning, all the rest of the kids are asleep, we're the only ones up, and he goes, I'm gonna go into the kitchen, I'm gonna make myself something sweet and fatty, and then sit on the toilet and think about life. And I was like, There you go, do you, boo.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:09

I'm not mad at it.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:10

All right, I'm not mad at it.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:13

Jesse, I adore you. I adore you too. And and uh regardless of the relationship, I know this is gonna be a trying time in the next couple days, couple weeks, however long, we can't put a time. However long, right? Um, there there's a lifelong of a bad uh to to to to now have a bit of a almost closure to, but I feel like you're almost in like that like place where it's like am I in heaven? What was it called? Purgatory where near heaven or hell, it's like you're in that you're in that middle ground. Where do I go? Like I feel like pray for you. Yeah, I feel like this could be related to that, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:42:02

Yeah, um, it's it's there's there's gonna be feelings that come up, and I will say this I'm very good over the last three or four years. I've gotten quite good at caring for my body and listening to my body. So, and I I'm very, very grateful and very blessed to live in a world where if I need to cancel appointments with my clients and go sit in my garden and watch the leaves turn red, that's what I'm gonna do today. And not everybody gets that opportunity, and I'm grateful for it, and I've worked real hard to make sure that that is the kind of life that I lead because I got interviewed uh about a year ago. Somebody found me on TikTok and was like, she messaged me and she's like, So we have a Zoom book club where a bunch of us all get together and we want to read your book. Would you be willing to come to our book club meeting? And I was like, Oh, well, of course. And all the podcasts that I've been on, and I've been on a lot, of all the podcasts, there was one lady who was like, because they, of course, they just are like, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, what happened to this? What about that? And then one lady goes, Okay, I have a question for you. You talk a lot about healing in your book, you talk a lot about gross and um letting go of things and therapy, and I'm like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's like, What's a bad day look like? I was gobsmacked. My jaw was on the floor because nobody had asked me that. And I was like, Wow, it's a great question, because nobody sees the days that I really can't get out of bed.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:33

And and I'm glad that you said that. And part of the reason why I wanted to uh transition into surviving-ish is because I felt with the the the best of intent, I felt that I was absolutely being loving and supportive, and I'm not minimizing any of that, but I feel like there was a a point where it was almost a toxic positivity because I would listen back and be like, but wait, like it's almost there there was an episode that I was editing, and I was like, even though I did not say this and the other host did not say this, um what I'm hearing is that tough it up buttercup. And and it was a talks of positivity when sometimes I just need someone to say, Daven, you're obviously having a bad day, and that is okay. Let's all have a bad day together. Yeah, some about those things, right? Yes, and so I so thank you for saying that, and and that's exactly why I wanted to go to Surviving Ish, because I want to talk about the fact that like sometimes you know, yeah, and I'm glad that person asked that question because even though all the podcasters that I know, all the support systems and and my me myself had the best of intent. But talking about and bringing awareness to something that is negative and ugly, that is hurtful to someone, doesn't mean that you have negative intent. It's that you're being real with this person, so you're like, okay, this hurts. Yeah, let's feel the pain. And and then how do we kick this pain's ass? You know, versus the well, tomorrow will be better. Fuck tomorrow's better, right? Right now, feeling this.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:50

Yep. And you can't think your way through it, you can't talk your way through it. Sometimes my therapist used to say this, that's my least favorite phrase on the planet. Sometimes you just gotta sit in it. Uh one more thing, because I know that we are running long, I'm sure we are. Oh, I don't I don't care, I'll talk as long as you want. So I had I was interviewed by a grief therapist. Um, she has a podcast, she's very sweet, she's just absolutely butter cookie sweet, just nicest lady in the world, right? And we're doing this interview, and she goes, So let me ask you, when when did you finally feel that you had healed? What? And exactly for the love of God, I need a drink, and I was I was I was proud of myself. I'm still very proud of myself for this answer. I was like, I haven't. I won't ever. This is a scar that will always hurt. This is I'm gonna be 98 years old and remember something my mother did that pisses me off. It's gonna happen. I said healing's not linear either. I said, look, if if you want to describe it for you, you're standing on the beach, your feet are in the sand, the ocean is lapping against your feet. Today is a good day. A little while later, the ocean's up to your knees. Some days it's up to your neck, some days you're underwater and only your hand can touch the surface, and you can only see the sky above. Some days a riptide comes in and knocks you on your ass. But every day you're standing on that beach. And I don't know what tomorrow's storm is gonna bring. But I've worked very hard to have people in my life. And when that riptide lands me on my ass, or when the water gets too high, they're gonna pull me up. But I still have to stand on that beach every day, and she's like, Oh, yeah, think about that next time you're talking to your clients.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:55

I would listen to every episode she does after that because I'm gonna bet you she has repeated that beautiful message.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:06

Thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:08

And I have some great attorneys. We could probably profit from but we would never, we would never, but I I now we know how we're paying for those rocking chairs. Come on. I mean, they're good rocking chairs, they're good rocking chairs. Um, I just I love this, and I cannot wait to continue this conversation with you. And I can't wait to do live. I can't wait for you to meet Jenny. And um, again to the listener, I want to put a link to the book, um, Girl Hidden, and um a link to the the podcast and all that in the show notes. Um, sending questions, you know, because yeah, because y'all like Jesse's our friend, and it she'll come back. She'll come back if I say questions, she'll come back.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:08

And I'm happy to answer questions in the comments too. Like I'm I'm pr just about an open book. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:16

Get it, get it. I just I I adore you, and you know, the the since I've been doing it, um, and even though nothing's been released yet, I think I've recorded almost like 25 episodes. Wow, they're all because I want that stockpile, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:49:38

Yeah, you can have some breathing room.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:40

Businessman.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:41

Exactly. Well done, well done.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:43

I could probably bankrupt a casino, if you will.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:50

And then Vegas, got it, got it.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:52

Right. But I I haven't gotten emotional yet. And I I was fighting the um the emotions, you know. Um thank God for me that uh personally for me that I I will never know what it's like to be in your shoes. Same friend and right, and that that's why I know it's safe for me to say that. You don't take that as an insult. You don't want anyone to ever be in your shoes. I my my parents have had their rough times, and and you know, there was even a time that I went years without um having a mother as a child, you know, but my mom has been back in my life for a long time, and she's in the past 20 years become mother of the year, you know, and and I love that for me. And it it breaks my heart that you don't know what that feels like. If if I got the call that my mother was no longer everything in my life would be canceled or for a bit of time. And it breaks my heart that you didn't get that again. Um and maybe you did it in other ways, but you didn't get it from her.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:31

I didn't get it from her. Um I I'm an exceptional amma. Yeah. And I'm saying that in the most humble way I possibly can. I am damn good amma. And I work very hard at it. I love my grandchildren more and my kids more than anything in the whole wide world, and I am so grateful that they're in my life. I know if something happened to me, that there would be, I mean, after the party, there'd be a hell of a morning situation, right? Some great stories told. And I feel like not that there's a winner and a loser in this situation, but with everything that my mother did to create a world where I was alone, I didn't have access to my grandparents who loved me, I didn't have access to my aunties and my uncle who loved me. Then she took away my siblings for 17 years and did everything in her power to undermine any potential relationship we could have. At the end of the day, on her deathbed, not a single family member was there, not one. She died alone. And I have relationships with all the people she tried to cut out, and I think that's a hell of a win.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:59

But there's a few lack of better word phrases that like hit me. I'm like, no, bitch. Because you know, you said that you worked very hard to make sure that you are good. Um, and what you're you don't you're not referred to as mama or grandma.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:18

What I am Amma. So my kids have a great relationship with their mom. So they have grandma, and her uh new husband is is grandpa in his first name, and our first bio-grandson, because our first grandson, who's 14 now, came into our world when he was six as kind of a package deal with his mom. So we went from no grandkids to fibro just the most amazing human being. Like someday when I grow up, I want to be as cool as him. But our first bio grandbaby, when he was two, he named Alex Bampoff. And I was like, I need to have a name that isn't Jesse because we're gonna have small people in our world. And I I know in the South there's this kind of unwritten rule that it's Miss Jesse and Mr. whoever, right? It's a sign of respect to like older people, whatever. Um, and I didn't want to do that because um my mother was Mama Dolores to all of the random kids that lived in our house when I was growing up, and I didn't want that. And so I started looking up um titles, like names for mother, grandmother in different languages and different and Amma, which I believe is Norwegian, I could be wrong, but Amma means spiritual mother. Isn't that cute?

unknown 1:54:29

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:30

So I'm Amma, he's Bam Boss.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:33

Well, I love that. Thank you for sharing that with us. But kind of what we're talking about before we uh uh hit record is you said, and I think it's like a better words, right? But you said I try really, really hard to be a good and unless I'm wrong, unless you fooled me.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:01

I'm not that good of an actress.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:03

I didn't think so. But you don't have to act hard. There is no acting, and there is no hard when it comes to you being a loving, supporting person, grandmother, mother, wife, and friend.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:23

Okay, now you're gonna make me cry.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:25

Well, and and I I remember the time that you know I I said I I was having a conversation with someone, it was shortly after my attack when I was in distress, right? And I said, I work so hard every day to be a good person. Like, how does this fucking happen to me when I work so hard every day to be a good person? This person stopped me and they said, David, you don't work to be a good person. That is the simplest thing that was come to you because you are a fucking good person. And I was like, you know, and and and so I know that I know that for shock factor to get a point across, we're like, I worked so hard. I mean a good mother and a good no, you didn't, you didn't have to work hard at doing it, it comes naturally.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:17

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:18

And I love I love you too, friend. I I can't wait to have you back. Um, we'll be in touch, we'll talk soon. Um, tell your husband that I know there's a three-hour time difference. So where it's 5 30 my time, your day is still a bit halfway taken up by thank you for that.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:46

Anytime.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:46

It has delayed you having dinner or or take out or anything ready. Tell him or you, not had to be him. Send me the bill. Um, I'll send it to someone hoping they'll take care of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:04

Funny enough, I am not the cook in our house. That is the man that I he is an exceptionally talented cook is where his creativity comes from.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:13

Perfect.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:14

Yeah, so I'm I'll be like, I don't know, I'll have a hunk of cheese. If he's not home, I'll be like a hunk of cheese, a mouthful of turkey, and uh grab this apple, let's go, right? Then he'll be like, here is this gourmet meal that I just made for you. I'm like, oh, I didn't even realize I was hungry. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:29

Yeah, perfect. I'll take it. Well, thank you so much. I'll be in touch with everything else and do some stuff, and um we'll we'll we'll do some lives and we'll get you on the hole here and all that. Thank you for spending two and a half hours with me.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:43

Oh my god, you're so welcome. Thank you for inviting me. I love being a part of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:47

Yes.