"I Drank The Juice": Alisha Is Spilling The Kool-Aid On Faith and Control

In this episode of the Surviving Ish Podcast, David is joined by Alisha Marie, who shares her compelling journey from being in a high-control religious cult to finding her own path. The conversation delves into the complexities of faith, the psychological effects of religious teachings, and the struggle to balance friendship and personal growth. Alicia opens up about her experiences with manipulative church leaders, the concept of the rapture, and the importance of intention and belief. Tune in for an eye-opening discussion that blends humor, insight, and raw honesty. #CultSurvivor #ReligiousFreedom #FaithJourney #SurvivingIshPodcast #SpillingTheKoolAid #IntentionAndBelief #MentalHealth

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/un-holier-podcast/id1800066919?i=1000719588995

https://youtu.be/32YHqDoXLdU

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Today, we're not just sipping Kool-Aid, we're dumping the whole pitcher on the floor. But the question is: does the Kool-Aid leave a permanent stain? Welcome to Surviving Ish Podcast. I'm David, and I'm joined today by Alicia, and we are going to discuss how she is spilling the damn Kool-Aid.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Mom spilling it.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

I'm so excited to have this conversation with you.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. This has been a long time coming.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

I know we keep trying. You've been on some lives with us. We get we go on TikTok. You've been on the Unholier podcast and your story, the things that you share, the Kool-Aid that you're spilling, all the things is so great. So I can't wait to get into it. So so let's start out. What is your thing this week that you're surviving-ish?

SPEAKER_02 1:10

This week I'm surviving planning a birthday party for my best friend.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Oh, that's hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

Yeah. You know, the thing is, I really do love where my life is right now. I'm really grateful and thankful. I am a single woman with no kids. I own multiple businesses and I'm thriving. I'm so grateful. This is the best place I've ever been, like financially. Um, my mental health, this is the best place I've ever been in in my life. That being said, all of my friends are at that point in their life where they have husbands and kids, and they also have jobs, all those things. Which is great. And I love that for them. I am the world's best auntie. I really am. But my schedule, my availability, my commitment to friendship comes a lot higher on my priority list than someone who has a husband and kids, etc. So when I'm sending out the text, hey, let's make my bestie's birthday so special. I want to do X, Y, and C. And they're like, yeah, but I don't have a babysitter, and I don't have this, and I don't have that. And I just had this like stupid little petty beef with the birthday girl this week. So maybe I will come, maybe I won't come. I'm gonna make the cake. No, I'm gonna buy the cake. All I wanted was to be able to go have a cute little dinner where we're wearing cute little outfits and celebrate this person who's super important to me. She's one of the most important people in my life. And it's so much drama, it's so much extra, so it's just so much.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

And this is me trying to be kind about it, but like no, I get it though, because I so when my partner and I were together, and especially during COVID when so many things were shut down, I loved a host. And you know, we had a hot tub and a pool and a nice size home that could accommodate people if they were drinking and needed to stay. If not, we have a lovely yard or a pool deck you can pass out. Most of them did. And so, but it I'm going to Walmart and I have a limited time. A, I can't breathe in a mask, but I want to wear one, you know. Like I don't want some 80, I don't want to expose an 85-year-old lady to anything. Like, I'm just gonna wear it. I don't have time to fuss about it. I'm just gonna wear it. And of course, things are overpriced and limited, and I don't know if Can't find any toilet paper. Oh, right. I mean, I did put in the memo, bring your own toilet paper. I'll provide you the beer. It's not B Y O B, it's B Y T P. Yes. And and it's like, I don't know if I'm buying 25 hamburgers or 45 hamburgers. Money's limited, resources are limited, and uh are you going to, even though the invite says no children, are you still gonna show up with your child and say sorry, last minute no babysitter, even though the invitation's sad? Am I gonna have how much do I spend? Give me an answer and commit to it.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Just let me plan.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Help me help me help you. If if I'm able to plan this party for you and and and and and not it for you as an the uh the person of honor, right? You're supposed to come to this place and supposed to be lovely and stress-free. I have a few questions, a few things that is gonna help me do that for you.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Help me help you.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Ridiculous. So yeah, so I'm I'm surviving it, but uh we're gonna have a good time. It's gonna be good.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

So have you uh at what point do you say, you know what? This is time, this is location, these are rules, these are the dress attire, here's what is provided. If you want anything outside of this, you're financial responsible. You know, like at what point do you send out that message to people?

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Oh, I mean, I jumped straight to that. At this point, I said, listen, this is where the reservation is for dinner. This is where we're going beforehand. We're gonna have, I literally I made the invitation is like, we're gonna celebrate Lindsay, some light libations at this location, then dinner at this location. Let me know if you'll be there. And like, I wanted to do like a party somewhere, but it's like, you know, I'm not cleaning the house, I'm not doing the pickup, I'm not whatever. I called her husband and I said, Do I need to figure out child care for you? Yes or no. And he was like, Oh, let me look into it. I had a backup plan. He got his mother-in-law to do it, so that's fine. But it was literally like, I'm gonna make sure this is happening. We're having dinner this time, and I don't care if it's just me and her, everyone else can F off. But up to eight people can be there because that's what the reservation is for.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

I love that because at some point you have to say, All right, there there are people that have communicated, and there are some, for whatever reason, has chosen not to communicate because we have to be a little nice, nasty, a little jab with it. So, for whatever reason, you've decided to not communicate. And now here we are, and you can wait in line for another table. Hope it's next to us. Um, if you have to wait longer than our reservation and we leave before you to head to the next location, hope to see you there.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Sounds like a you problem.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

I love that. I love that because I'm always the one that like I'm always early, I'm always punctual. I'm such a planner. Like, I will have name tags on scenes, everyone will have you know what I mean. Like, like that's the kind of person that I am. And if I can be 30 minutes early to something, you can at least be five minutes early.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

And okay, so like my biggest thing with this whole thing is like I really just wanted my friend to be able to show up and enjoy being celebrated. That's all I care about. I don't want her planning, I don't want her figuring out, oh, is the kids gonna be there? Is this gonna be there? Like, I just wanted her to show up. And then we have someone calling her and being like, Well, does she want a cake? Does what kind of cake does she want? What does she want that? I said, don't. And then I find out that like someone's like been texting her directly, and I'm like, girl. I literally said, let me handle it.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

And you know what I said to that person? Thank you for letting me know that you will no longer be invited to any other party.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

I mean, I'm pretty cutthroat, but like there's something I I'm still whipped. I'm still whipped.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

I know. I think that like what I love about people like me and you, but also that is a double-edged sword, is we care about people. Yes, we want to keep giving benefit of the doubt, regardless of money, time, stress it costs us. If I'm still able to take on this stress to where the birthday girl doesn't get as much stress, then I feel accomplished. And because there's always gonna be somebody. Damn it. Like you're the reason we can't have nice things.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Exactly. This is why we can't have nice things.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

So speaking of not having nice things, that kind of leads me into my ish. That I had this moment today of oh, I am why I can't have nice things.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

Oh no, not the self-awareness.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Yeah, like I decided that I wanted to meal prep, and not for health reasons, which probably should be one of them, but it honestly wasn't at the top of my list. But it was for convenience, and like I was on the Walmart app putting together like a delivery order, and I was like, wait, you can get a week's worth of bacon, egg, and cheese croissants. So I'm getting a Burger King every morning that's beside my office for the same price. Like a whole week's worth is gonna be the same price as the one I just bought. I can buy my own sodas and have enough for a week for the price of and so I was like, well, why am I not doing this? And so I decided that I was going to meal prep. I come home and I'm trying to like put things in boxes and packages that this TikTok person told me to do, and I'm not gonna say her name because I'm mad at her right now. And this leads me to aluminum foil. Oh no. I either had so much that I could have wrapped up in a week's worth of containers, or there was enough, but just one corner that wasn't covered to allow air to get in to spoil everything. And so now, Alicia, I'm in this place in my life as of today, that is spending ten dollars every morning on breakfast worth the lack of stress of meal prepping because I how expensive is your sanity? Obviously, not like I'm held together with duct tape out of prayer at this point. Like I'm white knuckling sanity.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Don't you mean you're held together with a little bit of aluminum foil?

SPEAKER_00 12:06

And that's all we have for today's podcast.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

And that was a great chat. Like, I I don't I'm literally wearing a shirt that says live laugh lobotomy.

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Like, I just I can't, I understand why for years I've been like, screw it, I'm with the dry. I can get a week's worth of breakfast for what I spend in one buy mail.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

But sometimes I need my starbees, okay? Yes, I could buy cold brew at home. And yes, I have the frother to make my own cold foam.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

See, that's where I draw the line. I will not make coffee at home. I will always.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

And that's the that is the cost of your sanity. That is the cost of, and I mean it's so funny because they talk about like millennials, right? Like the reason that we're not buying homes is because we make our avocado toast. Listen, I'm gonna keep buying my avocados.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Okay, but do you know how to open up an avocado?

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Yes, David, I'm Mexican.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

Come on now.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

You're right. I'm just learning. I've watched some videos.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

Also, I'm from California. Even if I wasn't Mexican, I'm Mexican by proxy because I live in California. We're basically Mexico. Even in Northern California, you know how to, I know how to open an avocado, of course. My also my family had Mexican restaurants. Like, come on.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Okay, we have to, I need I need some videos, some tutorial videos. Because and and like where I struggle is so a week or so ago, I have a Duncan that's by my house that's next to the interstate, and so like an app, and I will buy like $15 or $20 worth of drinks and some avocado toast with bacon. And because I want a cold drink, I want a hot drink, and then I need a shot of espresso, and I spent money. I love it, right? Like I spent money like I have it, right? So you better have it. I'm doing the best I can.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Listen, how what what is this wedding that you're supposed to be planning us?

SPEAKER_00 14:18

You're right, which was gonna be part of this conversation. Um but luckily today I've learned that you are the better planner, so I'm just gonna give you my pocket.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

Beautiful. Give me the Amex. I got this, I got this, babe.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

But so, okay, so one morning I made my online Starbucks order as I was pulling out of the driveway. I get on the interstate, I get to work. No Duncan. I paid almost $20. You didn't stop? It's 20 minutes away. I forgot. So I called them and I was like, hey, like, is there something they were like we don't refund situations like? And I was like, I guess just skip it. So I just gave Duncan, who has more money than me, 20 bucks, and they probably just threw that.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Yeah, they're definitely hurting for money. They have Jen and Ben Affleck on their commercials, they can afford to give you a $20 refund.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

Yeah, but nope, nothing. And so that was that, and then I went to clean out my car because I was gonna be nice and give a friend a ride. And I was like, oh god, I better. My house is always spotless. My car never is.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

My car my car looks like a homeless person lives in it right now.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Yes, my car is like the junk drawer inside someone's house, and so bad. I have no junk drawer, everything is labeled and beautiful and perfect. My car, total disarray. My car is my junk drawer. And so, of course, when I'm having to give someone a ride, I'm like, let me just show everything to the back seat. All these empty water bottles and Dunkin' cups. Yeah, and so I was gathering things. I was gonna take it to the dumpster because I was at at work at the time, so I was taking it to the work dumpster, and I picked up this Dunkin' Donut box. I was like, This feels like there's something in it. It was a whole piece of avocado toast. I at one point, I guess, I bought avocado toast with bacon, never ate it, never touched it, never opened it. I guess at some point I put on my brace, it ended up in the floor, box never opened, so it's staying the box. I'm just spending money, like that money, avocado toast is what, $5? The coffee that I didn't get is $25. That could have been $25 for our wedding.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

That could have been for our wedding. David, how are we gonna afford to have Reba sing as we walk down the aisle?

SPEAKER_00 16:50

I will find a way.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Reba, baby, can you also bring some avocados with you?

SPEAKER_00 16:57

And because I'm going to learn before our honeymoon how to cut an avocado because I'm gonna make you the best avocado toast you've ever had.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

All right, I'm here for it. You have to get the chili crunch.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

I appreciate your your faith in me.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

I believe in you. I believe in you. Hey, I've I've believed in I've believed in crazier things.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Which leads me to the main topic that I want to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

So the real topic at hand here.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Yeah, so you were a guest on Unholier. And if no one has uh if any if any of the listeners have not listened to Unholier, please do. It's hosted by our friend Jenny, who's been on here. And it is a podcast of people who have escaped cult, religious cults, and Alicia has shared her story on there, and I'll put the show notes or the the link to that episode in our show notes. Alicia, tell us a little bit about your backstory and where you come from.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

All right, so this is how I start out my TikTok videos. Hi, my name is Alicia. I spent nine years in a super culty church and I am spilling the Kool-Aid, which is a funny, quirky little way of saying I spent nine years at one per one church in particular, before that, about five years at another church that was also affiliated in the family, etc., at a church that was a non-denominational church with a Pentecostal background. Now, when you think Pentecostal, there's two different vibes that you might get from that. Pentecostal could be the long skirts, long hair, no makeup. We weren't that type of Pentecostal, but we were the speaking in tongues, signs and wonders, the you know, stuff like that. Not quite Bethel. There was no gold dust, no snakes, but definitely like the laying on of hands, touch someone, they fall out in the spirit. We're speaking in tongues, we're seeing things in the spirit, we're giving prophecies, etc. And in this church that I was in, I got into like the inner circle. So, like, let's say you go on a Sunday morning and you're attending that church, it may just seem like a run-of-the-mill church, very energetic, lots of like, you know, they had the full band with the electric guitars and whatnot, which my Baptist family was like, oh no, they have electric guitars, they're going to hell. That's a whole different, that's a different, different background. Um, but I and that's a that's a direct quote from my grandfather. We went to Christmas service at the Baptist church one day, or one one year, and they had been using electric guitars, and he was like, They're getting too Pentecostal, they got electric guitars now. And I'm like, it's a guitar. The only difference is important that one is plumbed up, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Like, is that the yeah?

SPEAKER_02 20:05

It's so it's not acoustic. So that's too much, or they got drums, you know, that's that makes it like less holy or whatever. But we, you know, we had a band, we had like the lights, the excitement, all of that. And at this church, you know, maybe you're attending a Sunday service, it may seem energetic and fun and cool and whatever. But then when I was becoming discipled and I was in a ministry training program, I had all of these really extensive rules and a certain code of conduct that I was expected to live by. And once I was in that like realm, the expectation of how I was supposed to be living was so strict and so strenuous that it stopped being something where I was attending a church and it became something that I became a part of a high control religion. And that's where we get those terms like cult, high control religion, religion, cult, all of those things is when I'm no longer just attending a again because I believe in this thing and I'm here with my own free will. Now we're talking. If I had one extra text message to a boy, I'm gonna get in trouble. If I ask one question, I'm gonna get demoted. And that's a real thing that happened to me. I asked, what are we doing today? And I was demoted from my position that I had worked several years to get to, and was no longer allowed in certain meetings. I was no longer allowed to use certain terms for myself. I wasn't allowed to present myself in this way that I was in the in crowd. I had not no longer been a person that I was allowed to be considered up here like everyone else. Oh, because I said, What are we doing today? And you don't question the pastor. So that's where that high control religion, you know, lines. Gets crossed. So the church I was in, it was called Church of the Harvest. It's in Citrus Heights, California, which is right by the Sacramento area. I attended there, and by the time I was 16 years old, I was in like I was being hazed so that I could join a youth discipleship program. I had, you know, all these crazy rules about like I couldn't text my cousin because he was a boy and I was a girl, so I'm not allowed to text him. You know, they're they're telling me that I shouldn't spend a bit like that says something within itself, right? Like you would think My thing is when you put so much focus on sex, when you look at someone and say, Hey, don't don't think about the purple elephant. You're thinking about the purple elephant. Yeah. So now you're creating this like sexual connotation in relationships and situations that were never sexual. I never looked at my cousin and was like, I'm gonna bang him.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

And well, and and that and that's kind of my point, is there's this perversion that um that that is associated with with it. And but but but it's not a perversion on your end or your cousin's end. There's a boundary, uh, an ancestral boundary. We don't cross this line.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

And well, there's a social normative boundary, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:39

And but the people that are making these rules and saying that if you do this, you're gonna want to bang your cousin. It's because they have either already banged their cousin or someone like their cousin, or they've at least had the thoughts or tendencies. I've never had a thought.

SPEAKER_02 23:58

I've never never in my life have I considered sleeping with my cousin.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

I I remember when growing up I had some close cousins and we would go camping a lot, and my cousins were my age, and we would have to share rooms, and this was even through uh pubescent years, and I knew I was gay before I knew what gay was, right? So at this point I was gay, I just wasn't speaking about it. It was like scary or whatever. I was never aroused of my cousin's with me and his boxers.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

No, and like there's so but then you know, there is when you say in that context, there's like some things that I never connected. So the pastor of the church, he went he let um one of the students live with him while she was in training, ministry training. So he called her his daughter. That was his daughter. Everyone knew, like, she used to like for all intents and purposes, like use his last name in public. Like that, that's her dad. So she would call his kids her siblings. He had three kids, Taylor, Elijah, and Aaron. And she was older than all of them, and you know, anywhere from like three to eight years age difference. But that was her family, those were her siblings. Fast forward to 2020, and she ended up marrying the youngest son. So one minute it's her brother, now it's her husband, they have a kid together. So, do the do family ties not stop you from wanting to bang each other?

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Like, I get torn on this because I remember you, I don't know if it was on your episode that you talked about this, or if it was on a live that me, you and Jenny did and you talked about it. But yeah, maybe I've thought I've thought about this because we you yeah, I've heard you talk about this story. What I think is that at some point morals come into place, right? So she and he were not blood related. For sure, they were living as if they were now. What could there be a world where they fall in love and they have unhappily ever after and all that? Fine. Sure. But it kind of and and and where the the rabbit hole that I started going into, excuse me, is this let's say uh let's say this man, Bob, we'll call him, is family friends with the neighbor Renee and Roger, and they have a 17-year-old daughter. If Bob was attracted to the 17-year-old daughter and did nothing, fine. But the day she turns 18, he can legally do something. Right. If she wanted to, right? Is uh hopefully it was consensual. So does that mean it's okay for him to sexually proposition her on her 18th birthday because she's now legal? And and so and I guess it is okay, but then that's what the morals step. Yeah, and so I so I think that what we're facing in the example that I just gave, and with the story that is not an example that is a true story that he just gave is ethically or I guess legally, whatever is there something wrong with these two people being married?

SPEAKER_02 28:09

No, is there something right about it? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Sure, and so so I think that's where the morals come into place. And then the and then just a sideline with what we believe is morally okay. Oh, that's better, you know, the the fact the fact that I am not 18. Yeah, but the fact that I could go to a Chuck E. Cheese to someone who's celebrating their 18th birthday and legally be able to proposition them, and legally it's okay, is it morally okay?

SPEAKER_02 28:56

I and there's so many of these like blurred lines in the the church that I grew up in. You know, my the pastor of the church, he was previously married to a woman that he met in youth group. He was a youth pastor, she was a student, and the parents signed off and allowed for her to get married under age. Now, it was just kind of like randomly joked about from here and there, and I was talked, it was talked about in front of me so much when I was younger that it was like normalized. But now that I'm older and I'm no longer in that religious psychosis, and I've taken a step back, they used to make jokes that Dan would have to sign his permit, like sign permission slips for his wife to go to camp because legally he was her guardian because she was a minor, if you will. And it's like, hold on. No one thought this was weird, and we're not talking like, oh, this was happening in the 50s and the 40s, it was normal. We're talking in the 90s, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

And it didn't stop in the 90s. You the the example, the story that you live in that you know of was then, but it's happening today. It's still happening, absolutely that we have, and not to make things political by any means, but that we we have an administration right now that is uh purposely changing the ages of consent to protect people who yesterday was legally uh an adult, but yeah, but now today they are not, to prevent it from being rape to the person they assaulted. Like that's where we live right now.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

It's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

And but but even though I'm making it political in the here and now, but what I think you may have some better insight on this is this is always it's always been this way in the church.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

Oh yeah. I mean, I think it's crazy. Like in the church, the things that we handle things in-house. So handling things in-house allow for those lines to get blurred.

unknown 31:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

So when you're talking about, you know, someone's being abused, and abuse, I'm using that as like a very wide term, any type of abuse. And then you go to your spiritual leader, you go to your pastor or you know, your small groups leader or whatever, and you're gonna say, Hey, I'm experiencing this type of abuse. And then their response should be picking up the phone and calling the police. Should be, let's go get you somewhere safe. But oftentimes, in instead of saying, let's protect you, let's take care of you, let's get you the help that you need to survive this type of abuse, instead, they're saying, let's pray for your husband. Let's pray for your youth leader that's been taking you out and doing X, Y, and Z. That type of abuse, when you're handling it in-house, and I mean, I have experienced this. There were things that, like a man who was older than me was acting inappropriately, and I felt a line was crossed, and I went to someone on staff at the church who was a mandated reporter, and she said, Don't worry about it. We'll handle it. Nothing was handled. I don't even know if they had a conversation with that man. He went on to be a youth leader, he went on to just so many things. And then later on down the road, I find out that this mand uh did more and did different and did this and did that because he felt he was able to get away with it. He never he there was no like fear of consequence because he had been able to get away with it before. So then, you know, you talk about a woman. There's a book that's called Um The Power of a Praying Wife. And it is a very commonly used book in the Christian world that I came from. And they go in, it's like, oh, my husband gets really angry. And when he gets angry, he may yell and scream and cuss and hit. And the book instructs these women to pray for her husband. Go talk to your Christian counselor and invest in this relationship and hope that God makes it better. And then gave instructions to also go further and say, you're probably not being a good enough Christian wife. You're probably not taking care of his needs. You're probably not laying on your back enough.

SPEAKER_04 34:19

Of course.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

When the real answer should be, should be, oh, your husband doesn't know how to stop hitting you, or doesn't know how to stop verbally abusing you, or controls your money and won't let you have access to the money so you couldn't leave if you wanted to. He'll only put a quarter tank of gas because he knows that's all you can get to and from work, and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Bring down the mileage, like when when they know how many miles it is to the grocery store and back home.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

And it's why is there an extra mile on here? Where were you? So when that's happening, this book instructs people to pray for him.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

But in and it is a victim blaming, right?

SPEAKER_02 35:09

Exactly. And instead of instead of saying, hey, let's pray. Why don't you be a better Christian? Why don't you be a better wife? Why don't you be a better, you know, all these things that the books alludes to or straight out says, depending on. Instead, you should be saying, honey, I'm gonna take your hand. We're gonna go find you an apartment. We're gonna go press charges, we're gonna go get a, you know, restraining order against this man. There's no support and it and it all goes into this religious psychosis. And that's that, and that's the topic of tonight. It's all that we're talking about. It's the religious psychosis that they believe that this responsibility that they have, and they may truly believe that they have this responsibility to God, but genuinely they have this responsibility to adhere to a religious set of rules, that that responsibility is more important than the well-being and safety of themselves or their family, their children, and that religious psychosis that God's gonna take care of this. That like God will have my back. And I'm not downing anyone that has faith. Have faith. Sometimes faith faith is what gets people through these things, and that's great, but that does not negate the responsibility for those people to have to face the consequences for their actions. Just because I believe in God and God's gonna help me through this doesn't mean that this man who's been hitting me or verbally abusing me or fill in the blank thing doesn't need to face the consequences for his actions. He needs to be held responsible for the things that he's choosing to do and the way that he's acting, etc.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Absolutely. Okay, so I want to ask you a question. We hear a lot when there's natural disasters, when there's some kind of catastrophe, a mass shooting, whatever, and maybe there are uh groups of people, a mass group of people that send thoughts and prayers. It's almost become triggering to me because I want, like you were saying and beautifully said, I want you to have your faith. I want you to have that place layered to head down at night and think, you know what, like I'm protected and I'm good, but I also want you to be worried about it.

SPEAKER_02 37:45

Or a sense of meaning, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

Sure. But I respectfully, and there's there's no nice way to say this to a believer. Um like the mega believers, right? There's no person to say this, but I can't think of a time that thoughts and prayers have truly changed anything.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

Right. And so that's such a that's such a real perspective.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Right. So I love the sentiment behind it, right? I love the sentiment behind it. Because when when someone posts something on Facebook of a tragedy that they went through, I want to say, I'm sending you all the love, but then now I'm triggered and I'm like, well, fuck, I can't say that because that's a thought and prayer. And right, right, it's done, you know, and so so now there's and at least in my mind, I'm personally speaking, right? In my mind, there's this negative connotation to it because thoughts and prayers is lovely, but it's not the stopping point.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

Well, what's it gonna do for me?

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Yeah, it's I'm gonna send you this positive thought and this positive prayer because I truly mean that. But as I'm sending that to you, I'm gonna get a good night's sleep because tomorrow I'm gonna wake up and be your ally, and I am then going to get a plan to do this and this to help me. Yes, and people want to stop at thoughts and prayers. It's in God's hands. Well, how do God is busy?

SPEAKER_02 39:18

He's got things going on in his life, he is busy, or or you all these you know, people in religious psychosis, he allowed this to happen in the first place. So, what if what this is all part of his plan?

SPEAKER_00 39:33

So exactly. So, and I and I guess you're gonna touch on it now, but the point of my yet other tangent, I feel like I've been on so many of them here lately in the episodes that I've done. Maybe I should change the name to the podcast as David's gonna go on a tangent again, but I'm not on topic-ish.

unknown 39:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:54

But with with your religious background in documentation and even breaking away from that harsh structure to whatever it is you believe now, um, which uh uh I would love for you to also tell us about, like with the your relationship with religion and God now.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

Yeah, but when you heard or even said thoughts and prayers to a tragedy a few years ago when you were in this cult atmosphere versus 10 years ago, 10 years ago, one week from today, we are celebrating the 10-year anniversary of me being cult-free.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

My the anniversary of my hate crime and attack happened 1023, and it's gonna be the 10-year anniversary.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

We're 10 days apart.

SPEAKER_00 40:51

October is a crazy month for me.

SPEAKER_02 40:53

That's his met. Uh-huh. With mom.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

We have another all connected. Here we are, drawn together.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

I mean, it was a little bit different because I know you're only 24 and I'm a little bit older.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

And oh my god, and this takes us back to where does morals come in place? I know Rob in the Cradle.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Okay, but to answer your question, all jokes aside, this is actually really exciting. I'm gonna like get more comfy.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

I know, but I saw you and I was like, oh, we're about to get real. Okay, I read it.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

Okay, so I'm gonna get a little bit preachy on you so that we can set something up. Because I do have deep ingrained in there the things that I learned as a pastoral staff member and um someone with a ministry license. As a Christian person, especially someone who believes in the Pentecost, that who believes in the signs and wonders, etc. When you are praying, when you are believing and you having you're having faith in something, the reason that you you speak out and the reason that you pray to God, we would always say prayer moves the hand of God. And it is an act of your faith to speak those things into existence. That what you say on earth is bound in heaven, what you loose on earth is loose in heaven, and the things that you speak is a direct call to what is at work in heaven above you and in the spiritual realm. So your words, they have power. They, when you speak something, that those are the things that unlock something else. Now, that is something that you know, when you're in the Christian world, you know that is prayer, you know that is speaking things into existence. Those are all terms. Now, when I got to the point where I was no longer considering myself a Christian, and I went through this entire long, long journey of trying to understand what do I believe? And the short answer to that is I'm not really sure. Spoiler alert, I don't know what I believe. But in that transition to get from point A to point B over the last 10 years, I found out that one common chord in so many religions and so many faiths and so many spiritual practices, a common chord is what you speak has power. What you say, an intention, if you intent, you have intent in something, that is powerful. You know, you look at the four agreements, you look at even like those who go through the 12 step program, you look at you can look into the science of it. There's these science experiments that if you have two houseplants that are in the exact same conditions, you water them the exact same day, they have the same amount. Light, everything like that. You walk up and look at one houseplant and say, You're ugly and fat and I hate you. And you look at the other houseplant, and every single day you say, I love you. You're you are wanted, and I I can't wait to see how you grow. The first houseplant will die and wither, and the other one will thrive. The what you say, all those intentions, those are real. So what I did is I took a step back and I was like, okay, so we can call it God, we can call it the spaghetti monster in the sky, we can call it divinity. I personally love the term divinity. Don't know why, it just jives with me.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

It's a very pretty name.

SPEAKER_02 44:40

It's cute, and and whatever you're speaking to, and you believe that you have power, that's real. And that is something that like is a common court. Well, you were saying it's triggering for you to hear thoughts and prayers. Now, when I was in the church, I would get so mad when people would say thoughts and prayers. I'm like, your thoughts don't mean anything. You need to pray. You need to pray because that's prayer moves the hand of God. And then I had this life-changing experience where I was in India and I was at the Golden Temple, and I was surrounded by people who believe in the Sikh faith, and they were at this temple worshiping their God. I don't know the term that they use, but God. They were worshiping and they were learning and they were experiencing their faith. And I felt this overwhelming sense of love for those people. And I felt as though I was hearing God because I did during that time really have a true connection with spirit in a way that I felt I was communing with him often. And I felt that the message I was receiving was I love them so much. Look at the way that they worship and the way that they give themselves in gratitude, they give themselves in worship, and they just want to commune with me, and I love that. That was the message I was receiving as I was watching these people worship. And then I go back to the hotel with the rest of my team that was on the missions trip with me, and the women were weeping. And I was like, why are we crying? And they're like, it's just so sad that all those people are going to hell. And I was like, that is not the that's not the message I received in this experience. And it really took me a moment to like take a step back. I'm like, do I believe that they're going to hell? Do I? Because I kind of don't feel like I believe that, but that goes against everything that I was taught. And that that kind of started that was a catalyst moment for me to like step out of this religious psychosis that I was in. And so I take that same confusion from when I was in the church that thoughts and prayers shouldn't be a term because you should only be praying. And thoughts is one of those like new agey, stupid terms. I was so against it now that I'm super new agey. I'm like, yeah, your thoughts are important, prayers are whatever. You know, we transition from one thought perspective to the other. So I think what I found comfort in, in the reason that I've moved out of the feeling that you are explaining, because I did have that. What is a thought and prayer gonna do for me? How about you get in your car and go build a house for this family that just lost it in a hurricane? I am not always readily available to give physically, financially, etc., to someone who needs it. But what I can give often is intention. I can believe alongside them that they will have, you know, success in this thing. I can speak life to the things that they're experiencing. I can speak life to, you know, I do believe that you're gonna see the light at the end of this tunnel and like I'm believing good things for you. And in I don't need to attach that to God. I don't need to attach that to any specific, you know, structure. It can be fluid, it can be because I I think everything is energy, everything is, you know, electricity, everything is honestly. We're probably in the matrix. Nothing is real. Like, so in that it gave me the freedom. It's like if nothing's real, then everything's real. So now if you're struggling with something, I can say, I believe for you to get what you need from this. And I I it gave me a comfort, it gave me a space where I can be okay with the idea that listen, uh praying, I might not pray for you, but I can give you those thoughts and those intentions and those feelings, and it also freed me from feeling the obligation to give them the thoughts, and I don't really need to pray for you. And then if it doesn't work out the way I hope it is, it's not my fault that I didn't have faith, because that's a big thing in the church that if you bel if if you had cancer right now, you had like, hey, I just had got this diagnosis. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna pray for you, I'm gonna pray for you to be healed. Now, if you don't become healed because I prayed for you, is it because I had lack of faith? Because that's the way I was taught. Like, if I don't have enough faith, I could be standing away in the way of your healing.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

Well, I think that's a whole a whole different type of conversation too, right? Because I I think I identify as atheist, but I end up by more Christian values than most Christians that I know. And I know a lot more about the Bible than a lot of these proclaimed Christians.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

True.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

But what what I think that we need to release ourselves from is if I had this, to use your analogy, okay. If I had this horrific diagnosis and you said you're gonna pray for me, and I passed away. Now that's hard for us as humans to wrap our minds around, right? Yeah, that's right. And and justifiably so. But a part there there's and forgive me, it's when I'm just but I think there was like what seven ways of healing or or something like that. I can't remember exactly, so forgive me, but there's like X amount of ways of like how God heals, and I want to say seven, but I feel like I always go to seven because that's supposed to be like the biblical number, so maybe that's why but but death is one of them.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

That's funny. I don't I was never taught that. I would love to hear more about that.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

Oh, let's let's schedule some time and talk about it. I'll research it. Yeah. Like I have a friend of mine who is a pastor of what has been deemed in Georgia of all places, the gay church. When they're not a gay church, they just love and accept all.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

Oh, God forbid a Christian loves someone just whether or not they sleep with the same sex. Oh God.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

He was a guest on my podcast when on the Survivor podcast when I first started, and he was amazing, and we follow each other, and he's so great. And he's like one of those preachers that are like we will sit aside the prostitutes, we will have them here. We will let like we will live like Jesus will or like Jesus did, or whatever. Imagine and he's just amazing. Uh he and I have been talking about having him on the show, and uh this subject and you being a part of it might be what needs to happen. And Jenny can come too, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 51:59

Like, a big round table.

SPEAKER_00 52:02

I love those round table discussions, but you're right, like we put okay, so I should have clarified or been more clear. I think when people like you and I send thoughts and prayers, we are also doing the things people like you and I, and I'm speaking for me, but I know you as well. We're doing whatever we are able to do. You know, if I can give you one bottle of water and that's all I can afford, you're getting that damn bottle of water, you know. Like we are giving more than our thoughts and prayers, it doesn't stop there.

SPEAKER_02 52:38

When I mentioned people sending out thoughts and prayers with mass shootings and global They shoot up that thoughts and prayers and then go sit in their Lexus on the way to church.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

Well, and well, yes, but who I meant that toward is when you have these politicians that are making the rules and regulations and dictating what yeah, you have the power to do something. Those are the ones where I'm like, you send me thoughts and prayers, or or the victims over here, thoughts and prayers, and you have you have the ability. You voted for a rape fest.

SPEAKER_02 53:19

You voted and even on a smaller scale than like the politicians, you know, I would I would go to my pastor and say, I don't know how I'm gonna make rent this week, and I, you know, I just paid my tithe, and now I only have four hundred dollars and this, that, and the other.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

Can I guess what they said? Can I guess?

SPEAKER_02 53:47

What what do you think they said?

SPEAKER_00 53:49

Well we'll pray about it.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

We'll pray about it. Funny, because you don't have a hundred dollars that you could spot me.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

But you were obligated. Okay, so you might have been a part of this conversation because I think it was on a live one time. But for any uh for the listener who may not be a part of the TikTok lives, on Tuesdays we go live on TikTok with Unholier and we talk about like these conversations that are religious events, and I was not part of a religious cult. I think that my family could have easily been for whatever reason, we never fell into it. Um that doesn't mean that we're stronger than or whatever, like I'm not meaning that by any means.

SPEAKER_02 54:42

The way I was group the way I was raised, that meant you messed out.

SPEAKER_00 54:47

But one of the times that I remember in church is the pastor was at the pew and literally called my grandparents out by name, stating they had more in their house than he had in his, and it is our responsibility to change that.

SPEAKER_02 55:18

Did you hear about the time that um my pastor said from the pulpit that he was gonna lose his house if he didn't get $18,000? And then my family gave him $18,000 in cash, and then he didn't use it for his house?

SPEAKER_00 55:33

Of course not. Of course not. That was a part of your Yeah, my interview.

SPEAKER_02 55:37

Yeah, he went on vacation with that money.

SPEAKER_00 55:41

I'll put the link in the show note. Like, listen to the full story. Um uh Alicia is gonna be someone who is an ongoing guest on both shows. She's been a supporter from day one with Unholier. She's been on lives with us. You like I remember the first time we went live on Unholier. Well, I can't say the first time we went live, but I remember the first time that we messaged, I was watching.

SPEAKER_02 56:11

You were on live.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

Yes, I was a guest with Jenny, and you were on. I was like, I'm in love with you.

SPEAKER_02 56:20

Literally, you're like, you can make me an almond croissant.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

Uh-huh. And we decided right then and there that we were dating. And I think we were engaged. We we went straight to we skipped straight to engagement. I think this is the honeymoon episode. How cute are my heart.

SPEAKER_02 56:42

When I was in church, it was always like, I just love the way the Lord is working. I just love that the way that like God's plan works out. But Kismet, we'll call it. So the the night that I met you via chat online, I discovered the Was I in a cult podcast as well, within five minutes of discovering you guys. And then I got tickets to see their live taping. I connected with them. I actually recorded an episode with them a couple weeks ago that goes live a week from tomorrow, which is happenstantially the 10-year anniversary of when I was fired from the cult that I was in.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

So we can share it all. Like, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 57:26

Um Yeah, so that's happening, that's going live, you know, next week. So it's just like I'm getting these connections, and it's so funny because like I talked to you guys, and then you guys were like, We want you on our podcast. And I was like, Let's do it, let's go. And our podcast, I I felt so bad. We recorded for like four hours. Your editing was like, what the task for you. No, it was we covered so much, it was such this really great thing, and it kind of got me into this like groove of like how to conduct these conversations with people, how I would like to be as a guest. I eventually would like to start my own podcast. I'm hoping to start that situation maybe in the next three or four months, you know, and it everything has started so well.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

If I can ever help in any kind of way, because I've been doing this for three, four, five years now, I've spent more money than I should have because I didn't know, but now I have knowledge. Um, if I can help and mentor and be any kind of assistance to you in any kind of way, please allow me, just as a favor, because I believe in you, I believe in the message.

SPEAKER_03 58:34

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

And and you need to be heard, you need to be seen. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 58:40

And you know, it's funny. Um, I think that you'll you'll really like this. I had a my really good friend, Christine, who I she's gonna co-host the podcast that I want to do. Um, she'll kind of be like in and out when she can, whenever it works out. Um, and she was at Church of the Harvest with me. She was at the church I was at before that with me. Her name's Christine. And she now is like, she's an atheist, she doesn't believe in any of it. She's like wants nothing to do with church. And I was telling her, like, my goal for having a podcast is A, to be a place where people who've experienced, what I've experienced can like find refuge and you know, talk about their experiences, hear my experiences, et cetera. I want to, but like on the other side of that coin, I want to have a podcast where people who are currently in ministry but don't want to be like the church that I went to, I can be a resource and I can kind of guide and help shape. And she's like, Well, why do you want to make a podcast for Christians? And I was like, you know what? If I stop one girl from being in a cult because one church leader, I may not believe the same thing as these church leaders. And that's okay. I can still sit at a table with you and help them not abuse other people. I would love to be a source of light and a source of hope for people to no longer experience what I experience because I can call out and tell the stories of how Dan was abusive and you know, verbally, spiritually, physically, et cetera, with me. And I can call him out and maybe one day he'll stop being a pastor and he'll stop hurting people. That would be great. But what if I could stop 10 churches from acting this way? What could I, what if, you know, what would the impact look like if I could be a resource for people? If they want to believe in the Bible through and through the way it is written in America, then you know, all the power to you, that's fine, as long as you're not hurting people. And I want to be there to help people, not hurt other people. So that's the dream. That's the the big goal with this. But you know, she was like, I don't understand. She because she's like, I fuck the church. And I was like, yo, yes. But but just because I no longer align with that doesn't mean that I can't also be a help to them being a healthier version of themselves.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:24

Well, and I think that we have to remember it's so easy to classify things, right? Like it's so easy to say fuck the church. And I mean, I know that I'm guilty of saying those things because it's easy to classify and put people in buckets, but there are plenty of bad people with bad intent inside the church, and that is who I'm directing my fuck the church to. Yeah, there's also plenty of people that are there with good intent that are looking for or for guidance.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:01

Well, and also like Jesus Himself said, forgive them for they know not what they do. These people are in religious psychosis, yeah. And what's today? Today's the rapture, and it's full religious psychosis. And here's the thing so I say these people want to believe in the Bible as it is written in the way they've seen in America, and I use that verbiage very intentionally because there are things that we were taught in church, A, aren't even in the Bible, B, that were mistranslated, even if they are in the Bible, it wasn't even translated properly. What was it, 1942, that the word homosexual was added to the Bible? So there are things the rapture in particular is something that in the 1800s, one pastor strung together a handful of scriptures and put them side by side by side and explained, okay, so this is this is what's gonna happen in the end times in Revelation. Here's the thing the book of Revelation, the way I was taught, is a dream that John the Baptist had while he was in prison. And he wrote down this dream, and it's a very detailed description of the way that heaven and hell, etc., looks like demons, angels, there's a big war, all this stuff. Now they take those things and then they pull these other scriptures from way over here in Isaiah, Old Testament, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, where it talks about a ruler coming home to his kingdom, and how the city people, his kingdom, greeted him before he even got to the gates. So they came out through the doors and they met him. They came out of the city, found him on his way still home, met him there. So they take that story and they've strung it together with this story of a war that happened in a dream, etc. And then they take this other scripture over here about how there will be people who say, Lord, Lord, I cast out demons in your name. I preach your word. And Jesus say, I never knew you. Now, if you take those three unrelated topics, put them together in one story. Now we're gonna say that the Christian people are going to be taken out of earth, hell's gonna happen on earth, and that's the meeting us, you know, meeting the ruler, us being lifted. The Lord, Lord, I never knew you. That whole thing. Now we're gonna say that some Christians aren't even gonna make the cut, they're not gonna get evaporated or whatever. And, you know, it's all these things that they put together. And this sense of religious psychosis comes into play because these people have been taught over and over and over, and it becomes this like huge like cornerstone of their faith and why they do everything that they do. And now it's becoming so real to them that they come to a place where I mean, there's movies, there's books, there's it's such a wide range of like this thing that's it's very real to them. And it it's it's psychosis is the only way to say it. It's like, but it's the reality that they live in. It's the same thing as like a person who has schizophrenia who. You can tell them till you're blue in the face that there is no scary monster sitting next to them with hidden cameras, but they see it, they feel it, they experience, they have all this evidence or proof in their mind. Now, these people who believe in the rapture have that same experience. Like, no, I look at this, look at that, look at this. There are people who are saying, Oh, yeah, these kids keep saying six, seven. That was actually God nudging us. And listen, I'm a Swifty. Okay. I know how to look for Easter eggs. I know how to look for, oh, look, there's an exit sign on the top corner, and she said that there might be a flickering light with Morris code that's upside down and backwards. And I'm looking for, I'm learning how to read Morris code. I can look for a reason or an explanation in anything. So I can understand and I can empathize. Now, I know empathy is now considered a sin in the Christian circles, but I can empathize with these people who truly believe that this is truth and reality that they live in. But unfortunately, there's so much evidence where it's not true. And I used to be the person that I, if I heard this, if if me 15 years ago heard me now, I'd be like, it's so sad, she's going to hell. Because I was in that psychosis. But now I'm over here in reality. I'm like, oh yeah, the rapture isn't real, my guy. It's not.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:38

So a couple things I want to say as we're bringing this to an end, is I'm obsessed with you. And I've Isn't it hard not to be? I've written down like six different things that I want to have you back on to talk about. I'll send to you in a text mess.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:01

But um to the listener, with me being a gay man and being very blue and a very red southern state, I want to give grace and I want to allow grace. And so I've learned to ask questions in a certain way.

unknown 1:08:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:29

So when someone comes to me and they say, and I'm not saying this is gonna be right for everybody, like this is just something that I do that makes me feel better with who I surround myself with. But if someone comes to me and they're like, Oh, I'm a Christian, I I'm MAGA, I'm whatever. Okay, I ask them, okay, do you believe in text, such as let's use gay, right? Like, do you believe that gay people are going to help? Or do you preach that gay people are going to help? Because those are two different things. When they say, Well, I don't preach anything, I I keep my beliefs close to me, and it's what I believe, and I don't try to spread it on, that tells me they're not dangerous, and they are just in a place where they're believing someone else. When they tell me, no, I preach about this, like I'm a firm when I hear if I heard that my nephew was gay, you better believe I'm pounding the Bible in him. That's dangerous, and those are different types of people. And just from my experience, when someone comes to me and says that they believe X because their preacher said it was in the Bible, I'm sorry, do you believe this? And it doesn't matter if they say yes or no, but do you preach it? Because people stand firm on a ground they fully believe in. And if you And it's dangerous. Yeah, and if you fully believed that someone like me is gonna be in hell, you would be on the ground of I yes, I believe it and I preach about it. I discuss it. And then preaching about it doesn't mean standing at an altar, right? It means having a in some kind of way. The people that tell me that, well, I mean, it's what I believe, but I just I keep my mouth shut lets me know that they're believing it because someone told them to believe it and that's all they know to do. And all it's gonna take is a few conversations.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:53

For them to see that don't go to hell.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:57

For being gay. I mean, people like me will be in hell, sure, but not for being gay.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:04

Well, and it's crazy, you know, like um before we got into it, I was telling you I started watching Left Behind today to like really get me in the in the groove. Uh and here's a few things that I forgot about. And then I'm reminded as I watch it. One the first half hour of the movie isn't even about the rapture, it's about the things that lead up to the rapture, and it's a very political. B, not only is it very political, but it's also like, wait, what? So the movie starts out there in Israel, and there's a war going on, and it like someone is about to bomb Israel, and somehow all of these planes just start falling out of the sky, and the the attack doesn't work. So that's this whole thing that like God is protecting Israel and blah blah blah blah blah and like stops this war from happening. So now it's that. The second thing that leads up to the rapture was this one world order, and there's this man who we later on find out is the Antichrist. His name is Nikolai Carpathia. He's this fair-skinned, light-haired, blue-eyed, like wealthy white man that is there to unify the world. He's gonna help us get to world peace. And the big kicker that was like, oh, this is the Antichrist, is he was creating a one-world currency. And I vividly remember it like took me back as soon as I saw they start discussing the currency that I was taught as a child that when the world all goes to one currency, it's the end times. And I'm like, I laugh about it now because I was in that psychosis and I really believed that these were like real and true things. But now I look at it and I'm like, as soon as this like Dogecoin or you know, fill in the blank, all this cryptocurrency started coming out, that it wasn't it's a different currency that doesn't align with the dollar or the yin or the fill in the blank. And I'm just like, oh man, these people are like convinced that this means it's the end of the world. And then the third thing that I was like reminded of that I didn't remember was the way that they kind of prompt that there would be people who were left behind in the rapture that were Christians, or they, you know, whatever, but either they had a a secret sin that no one knew that they had this gambling addiction, or they were having an affair, or whatever, they had this secret sin, or there were in all of these movies, any movie that you watch about the rapture, there's always a pastor who they kind of zero in on that got left behind. And they'll have this like argument with God. I preached and I taught and I knew every word and I could quote scripture and blah blah blah blah. But then, like through the movie, they're like weeping and they're like, I never really believed it. I so their faith wasn't strong enough. And now, because they didn't believe well enough, and there I mean, faith is not something can that can be measured, there's no benchmark for faith, but they have this story where there would be a you know a preacher that didn't have enough faith, and now they're doomed to live on earth while hell breaks loose on earth, and they have to deal with the demons and the the famine and the pests and like all the different things. They have to deal with that because they didn't believe well enough. And it's like I spent so many years as a child being like, well, what if I what if my faith, what if I think that I believe, but I'm not actually believing enough? What if there's that seed of doubt? You know, what if I'm a doubting Thomas and I don't actually believe, and then I get left behind. And then the only chance that I have at that point is to become a martyr. And then if I get murdered for my faith after Jesus, then I have a chance at making it to heaven. And it it's this, it was truly real. It was truly real and tangible to me. I'm at this point where it like, you know, I was at that point as a child, where I'm thinking these things and I'm worried about it. And like I would come home from school and I'd be like, hey mom, I'm home. And if she didn't immediately respond, or if I saw her shoes on the floor, or like I got left behind.

unknown 1:16:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:25

And I'm in, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:29

The intent, in my opinion, the intent of these types of movies and religions and congregational conversations is to fearmonger.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:46

Like you have Yeah, it's it's genuine at its core fearmongering. And it was okay, so you need to make sure that your faith is truly at the level that it needs to be so that you could be taken up in the rapture. Now, how are you gonna prove it? Because faith faith without works is death, and where do you look for someone's act of faith? You start with their wallet. I need to prove to myself, to God, and to my spiritual leaders that I believe by saying, I'm gonna give you my money. And there's people who are literally this week selling their vehicles, quitting their jobs, that are giving away everything that they have. There's a story of this Uber driver who's, you know, driving around town and someone hands them like a bag, it was like a Ziploc bag. They're like, Hey, we're about to get raptured, and we just know that you're gonna need this. So we want to gift this to you, and they're crying. They're like, Can we pray for you? And they get out of the Uber and they go home. One, so you're saying he's not gonna make the cut? How do you know? So, first of all, you've already judged this man, you've decided he is clearly not Christian, he's clearly not a believer, he clearly doesn't believe well enough because he's not gonna make the cut. Two, you're like, let me gift this to you. It was fifteen hundred dollars. So they just gave this man, he's like, cool, like I'm gonna keep it.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:31

Yeah. Have a safe trap on your rapture.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:36

And I mean, there's so much more that these like these people who really believe the rapture was happening this week. I mean, they were giving tips and tricks on TikTok. I don't know if you saw these videos where they were saying, hey, make sure you don't grab on to anything. Don't look down. So there was a woman who said, I don't want it to be like a lot's wife situation where she was leaving the city that God had abandoned and she looked back and turned into a pillar of salt. She said, When you're being raptured, don't look down. Let me explain something. Even if the rapture is real, we're gonna play devil's advocate here. Okay. Let's say the rapture is real, that Christians are going to be taken up and into heaven. Now, let me explain something. When we're talking about heaven, we're talking about spiritual realms. The term up is used. They don't mean physically up. There are dimensions, like you know, you see the first, second, third dimension, the fourth dimension, fifth dimension. They're stacked on top of each other. So when you go into a higher dimension, you can see more, you can see spiritual things, you can experience more things. That higher dimension is not a physical looking up and going up. People are talking about I'm gonna get caught. If I were to get raptured right now, what if I got caught on the ceiling? Do you think God is not stronger than plywood or stucco?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:10

Right. Like I was like, oh my god, all these balloons have been released into the atmosphere, and those strings are caught up in the clouds, and that's what I'm gonna be tangled up in, is those damn balloon strings.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:23

Or have you seen all of the satellites that are on around Earth?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:27

You're gonna get what if you get hit in one? It's gonna be a ping pong. I'm gonna hit the satellite and be sent back down and unraptured.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:34

Like I'm and and I'm gonna what if I hold on to the table? Am I is the table gonna come with me? And I'm well, and then it depends on which it depends on which rapture movie, because left behind, their clothes were left behind in a pile on the ground. Um, but if you watch the remaining, which is my personal favorite rapture movie because it was a Christian horror movie, they just fell over dead and their spirit was lifted out of them. Like, so who knows what it actually is gonna look like? And it's just it's crazy. Like these this whole concept of what's gonna happen, how it's gonna happen, this these people who truly believe it. And I I I want to yell at them it's like, first of all, if you believe in heaven and hell, which I don't know if I do, but I understand the concept, I get to teach you about them, they're all right here. Yeah, if you if you start learning about astral projection, which like kind of gives the science perspective of heaven, hell, and everything in between, that if you're like you fall asleep and then you can like come out of your body and you're on the astral plane. If you raise your vibrations up, you'll be in heaven. If you lower them, you'll be in hell. And that's where you get the you know, Dante's Inferno, different levels of hell, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We could talk on all that for hours, but all those things, you're not physically getting your body isn't getting lifted up. And it's so funny because I'm explaining all this and I have a ton of knowledge and I've done so much studying on these things, and I know a lot about it. And then I like casually made a joke about it to my best friend who didn't grow up religious, and I was like, Oh, yeah, you know, the rapture's happened today. She's like, What the fuck is a rapture? I was like, You've never heard of left behind? She's like, No, I'm not left behind. What the fuck is left behind?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:25

The word rapture is not in the Bible, it's not biblical. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:30

So I'm like trying to explain to her the concept of this, and she's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So when the Christians go up, you said like their clothes is left behind, and I was like, Yeah, she's like, so it's like a naked orgy in heaven?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:47

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:47

I was gonna say, well, of course, let me just tell you if the people I went to church with are the ones getting raptured, and they're the ones that are gonna be in heaven naked, please, for the love of God, gouge my eyes out if I have to be there, because those people, I don't want to see any of them naked.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:08

And and if hell is filled with people like the Christians that I know, I'm not interested. Like, unrapture me.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:18

Unrapture me. Honey, can I get a first class ticket straight away from wherever they are?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:25

I'm gonna take my chance with with uh whatever's supposed to be like what big cockroaches or something in the Bible. I don't know, who knows? Who knows? At least I'm obsessed with you. Uh I have like a list of like 12 things now that I want us to discuss.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:46

Let's bring obviously we keep going, but to bring this episode to an end. Yes, I always like to end on something fun and light because we start with fun and light things, but sometimes we have conversations like this, which your conversation need to be fucking had. But they're heavy. Yeah, and so I'm gonna ask you a rapid fire question. Oh heavens. This question is related to uh uh where you come from, you know, uh and your background. And I also have an answer to this question. Um it could be a whole different topic and subject, which we will do on another episode. But the intent is to end to end on something positive and lighthearted. So my three with from the ish bull. The question is if you could send yourself a text message right now about your past, what would it say?

SPEAKER_02 1:24:57

Am I sending it to my past self?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:00

No, your past is sending it to you now.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:03

Okay, so 10 years ago me is sending a text to me right now. Okay, if it's legitimately 10 years ago me to 10 years ago now, I'm probably asking a question. And I would probably then be like, is sex as good as they say it is, and I would say, honey, it's better.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:31

Ah, I love that for you. I can't wait till I'm able to send myself that response. I'm just kidding. I'm totally kidding.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:42

Well, you see, you in that experience, you probably would have had great sex in church. As a woman in the church that was meant to just be a tool for her husband so that he did not stray or sin. I was just meant to lay on my back, and now we haven't fun out here.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:00

And if I was a straight man, it would have been pleasurable for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:05

But as we all know, in in uh religious organizations, um, I think specifically in gay stuff, Catholic, is where there's gay molestation and so I mean, yeah, if I was a straight man.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:27

Well, you see, my friends went I I remember I brought my uh this my best friend back then was a gay man, and I brought him to church, and he was all about church, he loved it, and everyone pulled me aside and asked me if I was gonna marry him so I could save him.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:45

Wait, is that why the universe brought us together? Are you here to save you?

SPEAKER_02 1:26:50

Yeah, I'm here to save you from your sexuality.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:55

But I have to say what you learned about sex was so much better. So it'll be that great when we get married.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:10

I can teach you, it's fine.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:15

Perfect. Okay, so I really like this rapid fire question that I asked you, and I kept going back and forth with myself on how I would answer this. I had two different one of them is that I would text myself, David, it's gonna hurt. But it's all but the pain is gonna be worth thinking. And I truly believe that and I I I believe that and I I I know that for a fact, I guess. You know, like I've had

SPEAKER_02 1:28:00

It's so funny. It's so funny that you're bringing this up though, because I almost asked someone this exact same question yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:08

Yeah. It's like someone someone asked me on a podcast I was on probably two years ago at this point. I think well, maybe even longer, because I think it was during COVID times, but they asked me if I would change what had happened to me. And I said no. And you can see in real time, I was like, well, what? But the people that I have met, the people that are part of my life now, are because of who I met from the journey that I'm on, the shit I went through. And absolutely. And I'm making a difference. And I'm being loud and I won't shut up.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:48

Yeah. Well, so the the way that I wanted to prompt the this very similar question to the person I wanted to ask it to was there any piece of advice that you now could send to you then that you think that person would actually listen to? Because 10 years ago, me, if I if someone said, Hey, the church you're in is not the love of God. This is not safe for you. You deserve better. You need to leave. I would say get fucked. I wouldn't say get fucked because I wasn't allowed to say those words, but I would say you don't know what you're talking about. You're just not hardcore enough. And I was trying to think, is there any piece of advice that I could tell then me that I would have listened to? And I don't know if there's anything I could have told me that past me would actually hear.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:52

I I don't think that any of us in any situation hears advice from others and truly accepts and adheres to that advice. Could it be in the back of my mind, sure? But I think there's so many things that we have to learn on our own. But if you if I was on your podcast and you were doing a rapid fire question to me and and you were asking me this question, what I would say, and what my answer would be is David, I need you to remember that it's not them versus you. It's always you. It is not versus. And what I would mean by that is be proud, stand up, put yourself out in a way when you need. But it's always you. I think that a lot of us, if not all of us, at some point in our lives, we think there's something bigger and grander than us, and that's where faith comes in. But then there's this this triangle or this tier of people, and so so if there's this greater thing, then there's things that triangle down from that, and I'm bottom of the top pole. And so it's all of them versus me.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:33

And what I try to remember now, it's not them versus me, it's always me, period. Me, period.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:43

Yeah. So do I get to ask you a rapid fire question?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:50

Okay. Let's say the rapture's real. This is the world we're in, okay? What is one thing that you hope also is in heaven? Because, you know, we're taught that like the food, the you're not gonna have school or work, you know, it's it the things of this life are no longer there. What's one experience you want to take with you to heaven?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:17

Buck. According to what I've been taught, is I will never go to heaven. Um, I cannot imagine a world for myself that doesn't have music. And Reba is my number one, like I have every song.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:43

Oh Reba.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:44

Honey, I I know I pay thousands a year I to see her front row center stage. I know every song by heart. I have every album. The sadder the song, the happier I am. And I could not imagine being in a world where I can't just or being in a heaven where I can't put on a Reba album and sing to the top of my lines. Like I have to have that.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:20

I think I might be stuck between weed and orgasms.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:26

But you know what? I love that you've had such great orgasms. You want to take them to heaven with you. I I'm like, the orgasms I've had to have come with a lot of baggage and honey. I'm tired.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:41

You're like, you know what? If I have to live for eternity without something, might be orgasms.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:48

I mean, I will say, if I can have some alone time and some self-induced orgasms in heaven, I'll listen.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:59

I support a DIY. I am a DIY girly.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:03

Listen, I've done it twice since we've had this conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:09

Listen. There are no good men left. All I have is DIY.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:16

And well, there's plenty of good men left. They're just all gay.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:20

Yeah, they're all together. I used to say that all the time. There's plenty of good men, they just found each other.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:27

Honey, like, meanwhile, I sit here about to go to bed by myself.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:35

DIY.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:37

I'm obsessed with you. I cannot wait to continue this conversation. Yeah. There, there are a few people on my list that I want to have these ongoing conversations with, and you were one of them before, and now there's like highlighters and stars.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:53

Yeah, send me the text. I need to go through this list.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:56

I was gonna say, and I made a list of things I want us to discuss, and I want you to too. Like, yeah, like I just had the slot. Let's talk about it. Honey, what recordable talk? Yeah, I am obsessed. So, as of the recording of this, so today is October 6th, almost October 7th. So, as far as rapture, we're 45.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:18

We have about well, we have about 16 hours left that it could happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:23

Yeah, so hopefully this show gets released. If not, maybe it will play for us up in heaven. I hope so. Or it will be released because I was not raptured.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:43

You know, the last time they had this the rapture scheduled a couple weeks ago, it was on the day that I had a dentist appointment and my sister was working the front desk at the dentist's office. And I said, What if the rapture happens in the middle of my cleaning? She said, It's okay, I'll come finish it for you. I'm almost done with dental school too. She goes, because you know, neither one of us are gonna make the cut.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:05

Let's be honest. Like, we'll be recording together next week.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:13

Coming out of you live with no Christians left on earth.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:17

And does that sound like heaven? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:24

So that's how we get to heaven. Love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:30

That's how it happens. I'm obsessed with you. Thank you for being my friend. Thank you for all the love and support.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:38

I love you, husband.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:39

Yes, thank you for sharing all that you share. And I can't wait to support you and with whatever you decide to do. Um, I'm gonna share all your links.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:51

Yes, find me on TikTok under Spilling the Kool-Aid. Keep an eye out for my interview with the Was I in a Cult podcast. Catch me on Healed-ish, catch me now on Surviving-ish, also catch me on. I'm like losing all the all the podcasts.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:07

Yeah, all the podcasts.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:08

All the podcasts.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:10

Yes. I love you, my friend. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:13

Love you. Take care. See you after the rapture.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:16

Yeah, yes, absolutely. Well, so same time, same place tomorrow night. But good night, my love. I'll talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:23

Love you. Bye.