Pease Inn….. A House of Peace and Tranquility for Substance Use and Mental Health Disorders
Today we are speaking with Asia Ashraf from Pakistan, who has been serving in the field of drug addiction/mental health disorders treatment and rehabilitation for the last 17 years. Asia received her Masters in Applied Psychology from Punjab University, completed a one-year fellowship in Substance Abuse, Education, Treatment, Policy and Prevention from Virginia Commonwealth University, USA (2015-2016) as a Hubert H. Humphrey Alumna. She is a Global DDR trainer and national trainer UTC for the UNODC and Colombo Plan Drug Advisory Program and is internationally certified addiction professional (ICAP-II) from GCCE, Sri Lanka.
Asia is currently serving as Director Rehabilitation and Consultant Psychologist at Greenfield Hospital of Psychiatry where she provides counseling, relapse prevention training, capacity building of addiction professionals and orientation sessions for volunteers and mental health trainees. She is also a core team member of Gender Working Group by World Federation against Drugs (WFAD) to specifically address the illicit drug use among women, gender based violence and its correlation with illicit drug use and access to health care, treatment and recovery services for women.
Asia is a prevention leader; she launched the first Recovery Club - an open, free, safe space for persons in recovery at Islamabad, Pakistan. She recently founded a virtual platform with the name of Peace Inn, A House of Peace and Tranquility for the treatment and rehabilitation of Substance use and mental health disorders!
Asia was gracious enough to take time out of her busy schedule to share her story with us all while imparting a great deal of wisdom and lessons learned! It was an honor to speak with her and we hope you enjoy this episode.
Drug Free America Foundation Links:
All right, podcast listeners, welcome back to another episode of the Pathways to Prevention Podcast. Today I am joined by my friend Asha Ashraf from Pakistan, and just sit back and enjoy this wonderful conversation as we we learn about treatment and substance use disorder.. Asia, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much, Dave. It's my pleasure to be with you and among all people. Thank you very much for giving me this opportu It is a pleasure. I, I am so glad that our paths have crossed. For our listeners who are spread around the world. would you mind sharing sort of where you are located and a little bit about your organization and the work that you do? thank you, as you. My name is as, as it spells like Asia. And it sounds like as it's as as, and I'm from Pakistan. Pakistan is situated in South Asia. It's like, China, India, around Afghanistan. Understand, they're over neighbors, close neighbors. And I'm from the capital of Pakistan, which is called Islamabad. And I am working in a hospital. It is like a greenfield hospital of psychiatry, and my designation is, director rehabilitation and consultant, psychologist and, in the field of, drug addiction and mental disorders. I am working from last to 17 years. And, I basically, I'm a Humphrey aluma. I did my fellowship, in substance abuse treatment, education, policy, and prevention from, Richmond, Virginia as a Humphrey fellow. And in addition to that, I am, I kept too certified by Columbo Plan and, a national trainer for Colombo plan and UNODCP. And international trainer for, is a, as a DDR trainer for VC and with it's, well, Federation Against Drugs and, like this, this is all what I'm doing. I know this a kind of a brief introduction. Wonderful. And listeners, I am smiling from ear to ear. It is just a delight to, to be having a conversation with Asha who's got so much wisdom and expertise. I'm curious what led you to working in our field or in your current role? Oh, it's a long story. It's a really, really long story journey. As a part of like, the coursework when you do your, uh, studies in applied psychology. So it's, it's a part of a course like you do, and you take cases of the patients who are suffering from substance use disorder. So in that, in the, in the relevance of that course, I visited, uh, Sun, that's an organization, uh, where the people who, with the substance use disorder, they were admitted. So it was like 2004. It was my first ever exposure with the those people and, and I was so surprised, like, what kinda the disease its, how it is affecting the individual, how it is affecting the family, and then how its affecting the community and what kinda the treatments should be there and how we can prevent that disease. And that, institute they were like, And there were people who had a very tragic histories. Uh, someone has, he has just sold his daughter for like, just $70. And it was like very, very hard relative for me. It was really heart wrenching for me. And then in the one person has killed his brother and then there's too many things. So I start, I. I should be part of this, team and I should work and I should contribute, uh, to the community. So this was like my first ever interaction with the patients were suffering from substance use disorder in 2004 and as a volunteer. So I joined the organization as a volunteer, and then I became intern psychologist, then assistant. Then I rose to become head of psychology department and the directory application, I stayed in that organization for good, 14 years of my life, and I learned a lot. And in, in that time when I would, was working with those people, I was always looking for something like, what, what is being done in the international arena? Because, field of psychology and, particularly drug addiction, , , it was not, like, you, you, you don't have a lot of options. Like you, you can't go as in America or in other part of the world. There are many options. Like you can do diplomas, you can do degree in drug addiction, you counseling. There a lot of opportunities. But for me, there were no many opportunities. So I had an experience of like, groundwork experience of like 14 years. And then I got an opportunity to get a prestigious fellowship that is called Hubert Humphrery Fellowship. And I, I really wanted to know like what are the evidence based practices in the treatment? And prevention. what are the rehabilitation protocols? What are the international standards? And particularly how the gender sensitive treatment is being, given, and what are the protocols and, and with all those, things, I went to US Fellowship. So it's just like, and, and, and it was like a very first time when I got to know about, Drug Free America Foundation. I got to know about world federation against drug, drug policy features. It was like first time I got introduced with like, uh, there is a, a strong movement and I have a role which I can play in, drug policy futures. And in the, in the particularly, I can play a productive role in. International drug policy development, so it's just a journey. Currently I'm secretary to the n g and also a member of Asia Pacific working for the V N G. So it's a sister, her and it up to this level. Very impressive and admirable. what I hear is a, a passion, caring for people and a drive, a determination. To make a difference in this world. So thank you for being who you are and doing what you do.. Would, would you give us, a little landscape? What is substance disorder and treatment like in Pakistan? Yes. as I mentioned in my introduction that Pakistan is situated in South Asia. So we, uh, in India, Afghanistan, Iran and China, they're over neighbors. it it's very over geograph location. It is very important because, you know, like, we share a very long and forest border with the Afghanistan. And, Afghanistan is, unfortunately our world's largest illicit drug producer is for the report of UNODC. So Pakistan is basically a, a corridor of both illicit drug production , and trafficking. So it's the, the one reason that, the drug demand is getting higher is like, because availability of drugs is there. So the first important, point which we need to understand is the geographic location of the. Secondly, as per the data conducted by it was conducted in 2012 and the report was published in 2013, according to that data, there were around 6.7 million illicit drug users in Pakistan. And it was in 2013. Now they're conducting a new survey because after that we never got any other survey and we we're not sure like, because the drug, types, they're in number, it's number of person with I uses really increasing. and in that data there were people with 4.25 million substance use. When, and when I say substance use disorder, they're were the people who really required some sort of a structured treatment. and in that data, they were also found that, there were 30,000 people in a year who could get treatment. Just 3000 people in a year could get treatment, and the number was the 4.25 million. The women, they were in that data. It stated that, 1.5 million, they were. Who were using illicit drugs with UD in that report mentioned that the, the women drug abuse that was underreported and under studied. So it was, it was very important And after that, they were more, other drugs more common. at that time. fully drug abuse is still very common in Pakistan. in, in that, in that survey, heroin and injecting drug use, very, it was very prevalent to use among women. It was more prescription pain killers and opioids and tranquilizers. Among me, it put more opioids and injecting drug. But currently, the status has changed. They're more, it's like more kinda a ice pandemic in Pakistan. a lot of, young generation, women and girls and, and male population, they're using, ice. So it's currently ice is a kinda a pandemic. So it's just a kinda a, a brief background. That, that was a wonderful, wonderful background. you came prepared. so with the, treatment need, the, the substance use disorder, what does prevention. Look like. I know in our planning call, you mentioned things used to just be focused on environmental, very general. What can you tell us about that? You're really right, because the substance use disorder. It was not like a very top concern at the government or, mostly the work in the field of drug addiction is done by the NGOs. Mostly it, it's more active in field. in the last, couple of years, u n odc, they have started, working more on prevention and before that it was more on a kinda environmental prevent. Everybody, every organization, they were focusing just on like, uh, displaying banners, having summers and having organizing walks and seminars just for the general community or parental awareness and doing sort of, awareness campaigns in schools and colleges, other education institute. But now, uh, the unity, they have lost the proper. Training up sorry. Universal prevention curriculums. They're training people from the field, they're training parents, they're giving training to teachers, they're giving training to the media persona. So it is kinda a more focused, work, which I started quite recently. But before that, the focus were more on, environmental prevent. Not having a very detailed or rich and it, and it was more of a kinda a, you know, just warning kinda advice and if you would do this, this is going to happen, this and, and, and utilizing more recovery role models who were, who were like, who used to visit Education Institute or something like that. But it was not very focused as it has been started most recently in the last couple of. That, that comprehensive. Approach. Training teachers, training parents, the media that makes makes me smile cuz that is also important to have that, that comprehensive approach. it's so encouraging as well to hear the change that you all are making. do you have credentialing as well? I think we had talked about that. yeah, I, I mentioned that I'm an internationally certified addiction business, level two from Columbia. And it's like, kinda a credentialized individual and, and Colombo plan because Colombo plan, they also have taken a lot of, they have done a lot of work in Pakistan. In 2012, they started first time, training of, addiction professionals training and credentialing of addiction professionals. So now we are UD and Colombo plan. They're training a lot of addiction professionals in, uh, Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, I will put a, a link with this episode so our listeners can learn more about the the Colombo plan. I would love to, talk about international drug policy and how that is impacting substance use disorder, addiction, treatment and recovery in Pakistan. What are your thoughts there? Yeah, as I mentioned, like, my first ever exposure, in the international arena was like in 2012. When I first time attended a forum, it was organized by, World Federation Against Drugs in Sweden. So it was the, like, first time I heard about like there is, Roll up Civil Society and there is, B N C and there is a New York NGO committee. And, and, and there is gonna be any onus or something like that. Before that, it was like I was naive and, and I can, I can certainly show that many organizations in my country, they were naive. We wouldn't, we weren't aware of like, even belonging to a largest country and you were just, naive. You were not. Participating you, you didn't know anything about international policy, so it was started in like 12 and, And during my fellowship in America, 2015 and 16. I got to know more about, like congress so I was the person who gave a, a keynote speech in the, the preliminary that was organized in. I spoke about, women in drugs in Pakistan and how its ignored and how its underreported and studied. And then I got know about, like, and I, I got an opportunity to, and people, likeminded people who were really working hard in drug policy treatment intervention and rehabilitation recovery. So it was, it, it, the journey actually started from there. So, , once there was a CD session and I was asked by Kevin, to talk about, cannabis, issue in Pakistan, cannabis legalization, legalization issue in Pakistan. And I told Kevin, Oh, This is not a problem for us. We are dealing with so many things. People are so poor and there are so many concern, like basic needs, like food, shelter, safety, employment. There's so many things I don't think so that it is a big problem for when I started searching, I started conducting focus groups of the youth and then I started having literature and I saw like how the situation in my country. I was alarmed. I was alarmed to see that. And then I made a presentation and I, I gave that presentation in the CD and I talked about like, whatever the policy they are, actually being developed in the international community, it has a very, very strong influence. I, on the general, in Popul. They, they realize that, they look in, they, they glamorize like, Okay, in USA you can have, you can have free access to marijuana. There are lot of associated with you can have, It's legally allowed. So how it could be dangerous. It, you know, it is, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, and when you work with adolescence, it's really, really hard to deal with that. And then when it comes to the gender perspective, like what, what kinda the treatment it should be. So it has a really, really, really strong influence on how things are going in my country. In my, there is now online debate. There is like view, its, it's like, Getting very normalized. And then, then there is a lot of debate on like, alcohol should be allowed in this way. We can, um, prevent, use other drugs and, and unfortunately background as. So, and in the youth in my country, they're not trained like, how are the c should be made. Like, they're not very creative. They're not allowed, and, and their education and grooming does not allow them to make that is wise by evaluating pros and cons. So they just, Follow and you just normalize it and just clamor it. And they're, they have a very, you know, that attitude, drug users, it's, it's changing. very interesting. you sparked my curiosity when you mentioned the, the youth. Could you talk more about what prevention looks like with the youth? Yes, uh, you would be surprised to know that the Pakistan is the sixth, most populous country in the world, and we are the second largest country in the world. Who is the largest youth? And then, and, and because like, and it's like a very, like any other part of the world, Prevention is really, really, really important, for my country. the country who is dealing with so many things like with , political issues with unemployment, with the long Paris border, when there is availability of drug. And, and then there is, like, smuggling and there's too many crimes related with the drugs. And mostly, mostly. the predators are, They, they, they are like, used and, and, and it's like, in the media, it's just highlighting the rule you know, when you're under the influence of some drugs or something, you, you, you, you can hit easily. You, you're more like a dawn and something. There is so many things. I believe that the burden, on the minds of youth in my country is too. It is really, really hard for them to see, like, it's really, really hard for them to make a voice decision. There is a bombardment of information through the media, through the industry, through the internet, through the social media, and, and, and they, we really lack resources of a proper prevention, so it is really, Important for the country, the youth of my country, to understand, to have more life skills, to have better grooming skills, to have more sports activities, to have more activities in which their potential can be utilized, Productivity in which they're aware of, like they're more sensitized about the harms of drugs and they're more prepared, to make our logical decisions in their life. So it's, it's, it's really important thing because we, we can't afford the treatment cost. As I mentioned, there were only 33,000, people in a year as per report who, Who were get, who were able to get treatment. And in that report, 75% of the people who were using heroin, they really wanted to have treatment. But they couldn't because either it was very costly, it was not accessible. Our family was not supportive, so we, we can't really, we can't afford that. The treatment costs, We can't afford the coing damages or consequences which are caused by the drugs. In, in youth. If you start early use of the drug damage is really high. And with the current eye pandemic, it's the, the easy pre, they're. Both young girls and, and wives, they, in the universities and in the colleges, even in the schools, once there was a, the age range for substance use was like between 15 and 25. It has gone down below up to the level of nine years. No, we are, we are having the kids, nine years older kids, they're suffering from substance use disorder. Its not like they're using, or they're just abusing, They're with substance use disorder and they need treatment. So prevention is the top most, It's like a, it's like a very cost effective strategies, for us. I hear the, the urgency and the importance of prevention with the youth. And I just wanna share a quote from a past podcast episode. I believe it was September of this year, 2022. Rema Turk said, Only prevention can protect the future generations. That just resonated and stuck with me because prevention is also important. But I'm curious with, with the bombardment in the media, the, the families you mentioned might not support treatment and the, the low amount of treatment, the low capacity. What is stigma like in Pakistan as it relates to substance use disorder? It is horrible. It is horrible. it is. It's like, in, in last couple of years, there is a slight change in attitude, and perception of the community, but it is still, community has a very stigmatized attitude towards substance use disorder. for so many years it was considered more as a moral. deficit are like, the blame was on parents, because they were not good parents and that's why, the children started abusing drugs and it was like, it was more like, this and getting treatment. It was even moret. It was, they considered like, Oh my God. Then, then in the whole society, they were not, they were not allowing their kids to intermingle with the kids who were, using drugs or with the, who had a substance use disorder and even who were in the recovery., the family did not allow them to intermingle, and then parents were reluctant and initially the parents there in strong. The whole community or the society or the village, they would get to know that it is a, that their, their child is using. The parents would disagree. They were, they were, in sheer it was more of a collective denial by the parents, by the community. So in that scenario, you can imagine they were not willing to bring their kids for the treatment. and, and, and after that prevention, early intervention is the most, important part. But they were missing., they were facing a lot of consequences, suicide, depression. Psychiatric illnesses drop out in crimes, the environment of the kids into the crimes. So it was like, stigma prevented them for, for getting help. And it was a kind, a secrecy coping among the, people who were using drugs. And when it comes to the women, It is still horrible. It's still horrible. It's hard for the society to believe that, a Muslim woman, coming from a community with her role as more of a nurturing mother and in how she could do that when it comes to a couple, and then this, if they both are using drug chances for a male to get treatment little higher than for the women. They're, they, they, they're unable to get treatment because the fear of losing, marriages, fear of losing kids, fear of losing social status, and fear of stigma and fear of exploitation. And it's, it's, it's really complicated situation when it comes to the women in so stigma still, we have gone a long way. And in the stigma among the service providers, it is, it's. It's something which really need to beed, about because with the cases when come back and, and then the what they to the person who ared, it's horrible. It's really inhuman. That just makes my, my shoulders feel heavy knowing that the challenge, that stigma puts in front of us. you mentioned that you've made progress. Some change with the service providers as it relates to stigma. What, what have been, say one or two things that you, you've done to, to help shift stigma with those providers. most importantly, have, because like both and colo plan, they launched the training of addiction, professionals. So it has, so with the basic training in universal treatment curriculums, because there are eight universal treatment curriculums. So with basic training in those curriculum, it has, prediction professionals. They get knowledge about like,, it's a brain disease, and what kinda the treatment should be there. The role of the family, how assessment should be done, how the conflict should be provided, and like how to deal with the crisis and what are the treatment standards, How, what we really call like what is recovery. And with the training in those study, addiction professionals, they're able to. Like, Oh yes, it's a disease and how it's a disease like diabetes, like heart attack, uh, heart disease, it's just like this. And they now able to understand that it has an event and they're able to understand that genes environment and a complex. It plays a role. So, with the training in Universal prevention curriculum, now Pakistani organization, they have a lot of exposures. Like when I became a member with World Federation Against Drug, my organization, is very active. It remained very active, and we introduced a lot of, organization from Pakistan to a, become a member of, well Federation against, To get membership with B G C, and, and, and with that, with ISOP network. it's an international platform, so no, the addiction professionals, they're getting training, they're getting exposure. They are, they get an opportunity to attend. And with the online trainings, virtual webinars, seminars, I believe that addiction professionals, they're getting more. They're more, they're getting more knowledge and that they, they're getting training and the evidence based practices, and it's, it's really changing their mindset. Still, still, it's a long way to go still in human treatment, confrontation crisis intervention, beating, locking up. It is still there, but it it, but it's much better. It was like, like five years ago. It, it has changed a lot, but still a long way. Still a long way to go. A wonderful list of resources and you have been busy doing some great work. It's so encouraging to hear that change is happening. It is happening. It does take time. Yes, but it is happening and things are moving forward. It's making me smile over here. I've, I've asked you a bunch of questions and you have shared so much wisdom with us. Before we, we end our conversation, I just wanted to open things up. What are some other insights or lessons learned that you would like to share with our listeners? Yes, the most important thing, um, because as I mentioned, I'm working in the feed from last to 17. And I am the person who rose up from a, like a very, very, grassroot level. So I had an opportunity to work with, women, with ent, with people, and, and then my experience as a, in the international arena as a V N G C and in the drug policy, it has given me a very good. And then, then I have done a lot of birth because I'm also a, a launching of, I have lost a virtual platform. It's called Peace. It's a house of Peace and Tranquility for substance use and mental health disorder. The basic purpose is like to build up a center of excellence. With the people where we can work on, recovery, reintegration treatment, and prevention and rehabilitation. It's a, it's an, we launched it in like in the time of, it was online and I did a lot of volunteer, but now I'm in the coming time I'm planning to have a, like it's have its physical existence and the right treat. To those who are suffering and do prevention and reintegration work, the one area which, uh, in the couple of years, we have learned something. First of all, it is very much important, for us to consider that we need to shift from confrontational approaches toward motivational approaches. Ational approaches, they remain a very, very long practicing, approaches in Pakistan. They're still, they're, they're practiced crisis intervention. Admitting the patient without their will, without working over their, on their motivation and just confining them. It, it, it, it was a very, common practice. So the first thing we need to understand that confrontation would never work. We need to really, really focus more on motivational approaches. We need to have more trained persona in, in motivation interviewing and, and kind of a screening and brief intervention approach. Second, we have led in the last, so many years, and if I, I, it's like, Evidence based treatment is very important. A treatment needs to be humane. It needs to be, culturally appropriate, appropriate. This is not like, confinement and just. Just like confronting and just like cold Turkey and not providing medication assisted treatment. It, it would not work. It, its, it haven't worked in the past and its not going give any result in the future because we are producing more a generation with resentment. So as soon they get outta the treatment facility, they start using drugs again. So its very much to have an protocol and, and, and most I, which I have life is like gender sensitive approach, like a male, it's a disease. If it could affect a male, it could equally affect a female. So we need to be very kind and humane toward this perspective and they need to be provided gender sensitive, empowering, and culturally appropriate treatment , and then the focus should be more on empowerment. That is emotional empowerment, psychological empowerment, economic empowerment. And it said, and it to be not on just a. Just giving them shelter or just providing them a mixed treatment because there's so many specific needs of the women, like trauma abuse that needs to be addressed specifically. So it it's the dire need of time that they should be a separate or there is an urgent call for women or gender sensitive treatment. And, and lastly, the thing it's very important is like, Prevention is prevention. Prevention and prevention. I would say like it is, it's like, it's a common saying like, prevention is better than cured. Yes. Prevention can us from a huge cost. Prevention can. Save us from a, long term consequences of the substance use. Prevention can reduce the crime rate. Prevention can prepare a healthy and productive. Who can play, play a really a productive role in the community. So prevention is key. So we need to focus more on prevention and it should not be a, and, and when I was in America, I did, my, my internship with Cara, I'm, I'm sure if you're aware, Kaka, it's a community entire drug coalition against, substance use. And it was really, I did, It's an internship with card people and I was really, happy to see how they are like involving parents, different stakeholders of the community, teachers, spiritual leaders, and politicians. And how they are, they're, they were developing in a, a coalition, and then they, the coalition was taking that responsibility. It takes a whole village to raise a child. It's, it just one organization, one person, one government, they just can't play a role. It, it should be a collaborative. Effort of the community, of all the stakeholders. So, it's, it's a community collaboration. It is very, very, very much needed. I, I learned that approach. I really wanted to replicate that approach in Pakistan because it requires a lot of, Financial resources, uh, it's still in the pipeline of iron because mostly the funded behind the T and Columbia plan and any other opportunity there, there from Iron. So I'm hoping that, we can have a community coalition in Pakistan. It would really, really help because culturally, we live in a joint family. So it is just, how we need to sensitize the community to play a productive role. And once they're sensitized, they would be like, real, real heroes. They would be willing to do a joint venture. Marvelous wisdom. And I know I said it, this was the end of the conversation, but goodness. Can you tell me more about peace in, It sounds fascinating. Yes. you know, everybody has a dream. So, when I entered in a field, there were some dreams. There were, I had a hope, I had a passion. I wanted to have a treatment facility or an organization or a set where the environment is very peaceful, very calm, really motivational, very human. And, and when and, and it's more, it's more, toward empowerment because every human being is blessed with the potential. We just need to, help that individual. So he or she could explore that potential.,. So the idea of peace, and just as the name says, it's a house of peace and tranquility, where people are treated non-judgment. With lab, with, unconditional positive regard with the focuses more on, empowerment and community reintegration. I was the person who first, who, who created first ever recovery club in Pakistan with the idea that there should be some sort of the people, because the people who are able to get treatment and they're lucky. When they leave the treatment facility and they go out, there's nothing, They're just lost in the system, in the community, and, and they relapse. So Recovery Club was the place where I wanted to have an open, free, safe space that the people who were in recovery to just come whenever they wanted to. and, and they can talk to each other over a cup of tea. So this idea for the stimulator, the, my dream of that it should be, should be treatment, should be focused on intervention focus. It should, is a. And, and, and we can, do a strong work. There should be an advocacy, at a local level, at a national level, at a regional level, and we can play a productive role in international drug policy because what, whatever the policy is being developed, it affects us. It affects me, it affects the youth of my country. It fix every person of my country. So the piece in is, it's this is, this is this idea, and I hope you would see it soon. Peace in. Sounds beautiful. Beautiful. Oh, how can our listeners learn more about peace in? Do you have a website or social media where we can connect with you? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Uh, we have a website. We do have a, in study, we have a Facebook page, and I'm also, currently, I am, I working as at the directory psychologist at the Greenfield Hospital of Psychiatric. So we also have. Facebook page and, uh, in install of, uh, Greenfield Hospital of psyche fee and, uh, pieces is in like, uh, and, and in the piece we are going to have a global recovery. So the people who are in recovery, we, we are going to have, give them a, a platform where they can share experiences. And in addition to that, we are going to have a global community of, volunteers. So the volunteers from every feed, if their parents, if their teacher, if they're just elderly people, if they wanted to give back to the community in any capacity in writing, in podcast, in webinars, in, training and whatever the capacity. So its going to be a very huge volunteer network. So I would request people to, join our volunteer network to be with us and support. Uh, it's support is not always in terms of money. It's t it's, it's in term of like training it, in terms of presence in, of, uh, training, empowerment, uh, and it in terms of just. That is incredible and you are incredible. You are no doubt making life in Pakistan safer. And better for, for everyone, but also you're having an impact making this world a better place. I can't thank you enough for taking time out of your busy schedule to, to have this conversation with me and, and share your story and your wisdom with our listeners. It has been an absolute honor and pleasure. Thank you. Thank you very much, Dave. It was privilege to me that you have invited me to talk about my experience, my dreams, my inspiration, the. Work I am doing, you have given me an opportunity to, to expand that work to ex expand that network. So it's, it's a just, I'm hardly obliged. I'm humbled. So nice of you. Thank you very much. together is better. Well, I will put links to peace into the hospital and Colombo plan, Isep, uh, listeners, look at the show notes to get access to those links and get connected online with peace in some beautiful work going on, and we can all be a part of it. Thank you again. Thank you very much. Thank you. I'm Hamd. Thank you very much.