Casey Bullock (University of Florida) on Redefining the Registrar’s Role in a Modern Learner Era

On today’s episode of the Illumination by Modern Campus podcast, podcast host Shauna Cox was joined by Casey Bullock to discuss the registrar’s evolution into a strategic driver of self-service and lifelong learning, and the need to break down institutional silos with technology and service design to create seamless student experiences.

Transcript

Shauna Cox (00:02):

Casey, welcome to the Illumination Podcast.

Casey Bullock (00:05):

Hi, thanks for having me here.

Shauna Cox (00:07):

Absolutely. So we are here to talk about strategic service design, cross-campus collaboration, two very key things in higher ed at this time. So I'm just going to kick off our conversation and ask how do you personally see the role of the registrar transforming to better align with expectations of today's modern learners, especially with those who engage with the institution across non-traditional formats or pathways?

Casey Bullock (00:34):

Yeah, I think about the history of the registrar's office and I hear, and this was way before I became a registrar, but talking about everybody in the gym and having cards that you had to get punched in order to register for a class and things. And funny story is one of my institutions that I worked for was that they had collected all these cards and they put it in the back of a car and they left the hatch open and they all blew out out of the back. And so they spent all night trying to put everything back together. So you have this very old school way of what the registrar's office role was, which was this data processor. And it's shifted quite significantly. And I would say in the past 10 years it's shifted even more significantly to where we are more of a strategic logistic arm of the institution.

(01:33):

Now, because I didn't have a computer science background, but I have to know relational databases. That's a big part of the registrar's office is that we have database systems, we have to know how they function, how they work, because the expectation is for students to interact with the system to self-serve is the big part. And so that self-service is where we've really evolved to. And I kind of joke that if I'm doing my job, nobody knows that I'm there because it just works. And so the self-service is a big part of where we've evolved to. But as we start to think about how all the interactions with the institution are happening, it's been kind of in this electronic format, but now we're starting to get into these micro levels of interactions where you have students that are on this lifelong learner pathway

(02:37):

Where they need to come back and retool. And this was something that we kind of saw in the last decade or so where we had some events such as COVID that happened where things had shifted and where people needed to come back and retool. And so do I need to go back and get a full bachelor's degree to retool? Probably not. And so you're starting to, a lot more certificates come out, a lot more micro-credentialing come out. And so we're starting to interact with this lifelong learner in a different way than we've had in the past where it's been mostly traditional. You go get your bachelor's degree or go and get the master's degree and so on. But now we're saying, Hey, you got your bachelor's degree. You may got it in a certain field, but come back and retool with us and maybe do some data science or maybe do some other type of certificate that is needed out in the field right now.

(03:28):

And so you don't have to go back and get a complete new degree. You just need to get something that validates, hey, you've got experience in this. And so that's why you're starting to see this proliferation of micro-credentialing or alternative credentials starting to come out to where we're saying, Hey, we'll validate that you've got experience in this area even though that it's not this entire degree for those that are trying to dip their toe into higher education. It's also a way that we're saying, Hey, come try it out and we can then build on that and build into a degree so that you've got something to go forward with. And so these interactions have shifted quite significantly where we've gone from this really additional set to this really agile, be adaptive to the marketplace. And the registrar's role has changed in that to where we need to figure out how do we set up our systems, how do we set up the logistics to make those things happen, to add validity to it?

(04:30):

And so one of the things that I've been really talking about with my campus is that we've been talking about alternative credentials, but how do you add validity to that alternative credential? Because if I give a leadership credential out there, and I've got two of them that my campus is an offering, and one of 'em is you go and sit through this seminar and we give you a badge and say, Hey, there you go. You sat through a seminar and the other one is this semester long course that you're going through, that you're doing all these different types of activities and assessments and things like that. Well, the value of those two things are quite different. And so those are some of the things that we're now trying to start to say, well, how do we show the difference of value? How do we show the skill sets that the students learn so that the employer can understand that these badges are different, these degrees are different, these are ways of communicating what the skillset is. And so that's kind of where we're at now is how do we help the student articulate their skillset when they go into the workforce? That's just beyond that degree.

Shauna Cox (05:42):

Absolutely. There's so many components in it. How does the institution see the difference between these? How do you articulate that to the students so that they can articulate it to their employer and then showing that value to the employer themselves? I think the registrar space is probably, correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the most changed departments or areas of the institution that has shifted so much in the past couple of years, I know over the last few years. This is the reason why I wanted to talk to you because you have really highlighted that shift over the years that we've been speaking about it. So I want to dovetail on the micro interactions that you've mentioned with the students that they have with the institution. From a student's perspective, they are interacting with the institution, various different departments, but of course to the student they don't know that. They don't know who they're, it's just the institution. It's a broad blanket of who it is, but behind the scenes there's obviously multiple stakeholders involved, many people trying to work together to make it seem so seamless to the students. So what strategic opportunities exist for the registrars to collaborate with departments to create that more seamless end-to-end learner experience?

Casey Bullock (07:00):

Yeah, this is really an interesting topic because we've structured things in a way that makes sense to us from a hierarchical structure of the campus, but the students don't know that.

(07:19):

They don't know what the department or anything like that. And so a lot of our processes were structured around this concept of you have to know what a bursar is. Berk star is more confusing what a registrar is. And so they don't know the terms of these offices. They don't know what the structure of the institution is. In fact, half of the staff and half the faculty don't understand the structure of the institution. So how do we expect a student to come in with that knowledge? And I call it cultural capitalism, or not cultural capital, not capitalism, but cultural capital. Cultural capital is being able to navigate a new environment. And so the best way that I've kind of explained this concept of cultural capital is that let's say that I grew up in a really poor area and I don't know what it's like to go to a rich fancy dinner.

(08:14):

And so you kind of see this, and this is an old movie for some people, but it doesn't seem that old but pretty woman. She goes to that dinner and she doesn't know how to act, she doesn't know which fork to use, she doesn't know these types of things. She hasn't experienced that culture before. She hasn't got experience with that. We're asking 18, 19 year olds kids to come into a campus and understand our complex culture and our complex structure of the institution. And so the way that we break that down is that we just got to kind of level set that and eliminate that. And so that's where you start to bring in technology to help the students navigate that. And so they don't have to know who they need to contact. And so one of the things that I did at an institution that I worked for was this concept of declaring a degree. And so we had this institution was an open enrollment institution. It had students from all facets of life, but a lot of students that weren't familiar with higher education in general. And the way that they had to declare the degree is that they had to go to the department to declare the degree. And most of us that have worked in higher education, well yeah, just go to the biology department, it's in the biology building,

(09:44):

But these students didn't know what the department was or where they needed to start or who they needed to talk to. And so we needed to bring that to them and make it easier for them to understand where I can go declare my degree, how do I do that? And so we started to build out systems so that their self-serving and to declaring the degree. And so it's not so much of a physical, I need to walk down to the department because what was happening was they would go to the department and the admin was out for lunch. And so they took time out of their schedule to finally go to the department to go to discolor their degree, but the admin's out to lunch. And we are dealing with this institution with a lot of non-traditional type of students. It was like they were on campus that day and they're not coming back until a few days later next week they're trying to balance school, work, family, all these type of things.

(10:46):

And we're telling 'em to go to a department where the admin's gone. And so what was happening was they weren't changing their degrees. And so all of our information about who was in what degree was completely wrong because it just wasn't convenient for a student to do it. And if it's not convenient, they're not going to do it. And so we had to use technology to bridge that gap to get rid of those structures and break down those barriers. And so what we ended up building was a declaration program that basically the student can self-serve and they can identify what degree that they need to declare. But as we started to get into that, we realized that it's a little bit more complex than just saying, I want to be a biology major, because some of the degrees required minors and some degrees required concentrations or emphasis.

(11:33):

And so we had to kind of build all that stuff in there as well that if you choose this degree that it also guide the student that you have to choose a concentration. And it also guided the student that you had to choose a minor as well so that we got a complete declaration. But on the backend of that, the students didn't see any of this on the backend, but that then gets shot out to all the different departments for the approval. So it would go to the biology department for the degree declaration and the concentration declaration, and then it would shoot out to the minor department for their part of it, and then that gets all checked off by the registrar's office and then just gets put into the system. So from a student, they were able to do it, and I call it the pajama test, that our systems need to pass the pajama test, that they can do it in their pajamas at home at 10 o'clock at night or whatever time they're doing it or when they're thinking about it. And so that was one way that we were able to get rid of this complexity of the structure of the institution by simplifying it for the student of saying, we're going to guide you through this more in an electronic format than it was physically taking you down to the department and saying, you need to meet with this person and you meet with this person just to get this task pleaded.

Shauna Cox (12:49):

Absolutely. I have always attributed the pajama test to you, and we always have at the evolution, we're like, remember when Casey said the pajama test? It always stuck in our brain and the fact that you mentioned pretty woman, I now and putting pretty woman in a higher ed context, and I'm like, if you're the institution that is not doing a pajama test, you will turn into the scene where she walks into the department store and says, big mistake. That's essentially what your institution's going to be. So you don't want to be that institution. And I really want to hone in on this idea of service design because obviously with everything that you just mentioned and the example that you just provided, it really dovetails beautifully into the next question of how can service design within the registrar's office evolve to mirror the level of personalization and accessibility that learners aren't only demanding, but that they need?

Casey Bullock (13:45):

Yeah. Well, really interesting that we discovered here at the University of Florida where I'm at right now

(13:52):

Is that we pulled in groups of students and we started to ask them, tell us about your experience with registration. Tell us about your experience with advising. Because we were wanting to explore what changes that we need to make and what things that we needed to do. And so the one thing that we discovered is that our registration process was a bit archaic. It was a bit challenging for students. And so we asked them, we said, well, take us through your registration process and then look the University of Florida, we've got a lot of type A personalities here. I mean, they had spreadsheets, they had sticky notes, they had all this type of stuff to plan out. They were doing research based off of past schedules that were posted out there, they were doing when it was offered, and they were trying to do all of this almost predictive analytics. We even got to a point that there was a computer science student that built his own application on how to register for classes so that he can get the most optimal schedule.

Shauna Cox (14:58):

That's insane. It is.

Casey Bullock (15:03):

And I was like, I want to give that student a high five really, because that's incredible. I mean, he saw a need and he was trying to fill the gap because we weren't providing that need for them. And so what we discovered from this was that the students just accepted that's the way it was at the institution because they were only familiar with the University of Florida. They just accepted that's the way it is, and that's just how you register. This is just what you have to do to register. But we knew that there was products out there that can make this process easier. We knew that there was other things that we can do. We knew that there were schedulers out there that would take away the spreadsheets and the sticky notes and all that type of stuff. But what we learned was that the students were just accepting what you gave them. And until you get some computer science student that goes out there and builds their own application, which it's been like this underground scheduler out there that students have been using. So we felt like we needed to react to that and we needed to really meet the students where they're at. But one of the challenges is is that we're at a very complex university. We just like every institution out there, we do things differently than everybody else. But the truth is that everywhere that I go, we're all dealing with kind of the same problems.

(16:35):

So we actually formulated a task force. It's a little bit bigger than a task force. It's a major project. It's called Streamlining Academic Management, where we're looking at everything from when a course is created through the curriculum management process to when it's scheduled to when the students interact with the course. So we want to look at everything there and how do we automate that? How do we get to the point that we're providing courses when the student needs it? One of the big challenges that we ran into though is that we could do a lot of predictive analytics on our own, but we're rolling over a schedule from semester to semester.

(17:21):

So if we've got a bad schedule, we're just rolling over a bad schedule and that's all our data's going to tell us. We try to use waitlist data, but we found out that waitlist is pretty noisy when you start to look at the data. We had students waitlist from multiple courses. They were registered for a course and they would wait list for the same course because they wanted it at a different time. And so it was really difficult to get what was the true demand of the course. What we really needed was something that told us what was in the student's head. So we're really talking about degree planning,

(17:58):

Getting the students to plan degrees. That becomes a challenge as well. Some departments, they're already doing it. They already are planning out the degrees or planning out the four year program with the student while others are so big that it's next to impossible to plan that out for a student. So we try to provide degree maps for them. We call 'em model semester plans here, but our students are coming in with 50, 60 credit hours from high school and those don't work because they're not starting off as a clean slate. They're starting off halfway through. And it's the same with transfer students as well. They're starting off with things. And so we've really had to take a step back and think how do we meet the students where they're at, and how do we provide better tools for them to use? And that's what it kind of came down to is that we need to find better tools that they can interact with and that's going to help feed data back to us to understand what the needs are for the student.

(19:00):

So having a type of scheduler out there, having a type of degree planner out there that's easy to use, having a degree audit system that is going to be something that communicates to the student exactly what they need, and then being able to mind all that data to understand where are we low on resources that we need to provide. And so one of the things I think chemistry's a big one out there that students cannot get into a chemistry class. And truth is it's one of the hardest ones to provide resources for because you not only have the lecture, but you have the lab and lab spaces limited. Professors are limited, but yet chemistry is required in so many programs and so many, you look at all the health profession type of programs, you look at some of the science programs, chemistry is a foundational component to those programs.

(19:55):

And it's a difficult one where it's to, it becomes this bottleneck for students. But the challenge that we've had is that we haven't really understood the problem well enough to know what the actual demand is for that and how do we alleviate that bottleneck. And so that's where registrar's offices can come into that situation with the tools that we have and things that we can gather that data and start to look at and say and be more of a consultant. And that's where I think our relationship is changing with the departments is that we're becoming more of a consultant with the departments rather than this process or this data processor to where we're sitting in a position and we can see, okay, we're offering two sections of chemistry with 99 students in each of it over here. We can gather from our degree audit data that there are 5,000 students that need to take that chemistry class. We know that they're not all going to take it in the fall semester,

(20:53):

But they do need to take it if they're going to progress to their program. And so that's where the registrar's office can now sit down with the department and say, how do we solve this problem together? What do we need to do? And how do we make an argument for the department that we need more resources, we need more building space, we need more labs. We need some of these things. And so I really see the registrar's office now evolving into this consulting role for the departments that they can rely on as they're going to build out a program to sit down with the registrar's office first to say, Hey, we want to build out this program. Help us design the semester to semester plan, help us design some of the degree methods, help us understand who's requiring what courses where, so that when we go out there, we've got the prerequisites ready, we've got the space for them to navigate through everything. And so that for the student, it is, I know what classes I need to take and I can get into those classes and I can go forward. Whereas now we have students that are just going, yeah, chemistry, you can't get into it until your senior year.

(22:03):

Exactly. Because that's when you get priority registration and that's when you can get in on it and then you better be awake at 12:01 AM in order to get into that class. But we need to change all that. We need to be more aware of what the demand and what the needs are.

Shauna Cox (22:20):

Absolutely. Even at the institution I went to, everybody mentioned when it came to getting into those courses, we phrased it as the Hunger Games. It's exactly what it was. It's just trying to get in there and you're just fighting to hopefully get a spot. And I think an underlying theme that I see in our conversation here is this idea of data and not just collecting it but actually proactively leveraging it. So what are some practical ways that registrars can leverage data to proactively support not only student success, but also that level of institutional agility?

Casey Bullock (22:55):

Yeah, I think data helps us understand student behavior. And sometimes we can look at a situation like I'll take waitlist as an example, because that seems to be something that we all look at it and say, ah, that's going to tell us what demand is. We had one institution that I worked for, we waitlisted a course and we set the wait list at I think a ridiculous amount, like a hundred seats for the wait list. And I was surprised that there was 75 people that had waitlisted that course, and that 75th person is waitlist that course knowing that they're not ever going to get into it, but they're sending a message to the administration saying, I need this course.

Shauna Cox (23:44):

I am, and I am putting myself as 75 still waiting in hopes that you guys see that.

Casey Bullock (23:51):

And so I think they're trying to communicate with us in one way, and I think it is through some of the behaviors that we're starting to look at through our systems. We've got so much data in our systems that we can collect that can help us as we start to sift through that data and start to understand what are the behaviors of the students, what they're waitlist for. One of the things that we started to look at was when we started to talk about waitlist, was that just that behavior of the waitlist. So as we embarked on a project, one of the questions that the deans had was, will this solve our wait listing problems? And my answer was actually, no, but it's going to change it. It's going to change the behavior of the wait list. So if we're able to more meet supply and demand, we're able to offer enough seats for a course in a semester that the student needs to take it, you're going to start to see the behavior, the wait list change because that behavior is going to change to, yeah, you've got my course, but now I want to get it at the time that I want it.

(24:57):

And so they're still going to wait list that course, but they're going to try to get it at the time that they want.

(25:05):

And so we can take that data and we can look at that data in a way that is looking at what behaviors can we gather from the data that we're seeing? And then we need to check that with the students every once in a while doing just a sit down with your students of a group session and just saying, Hey, just tell me about your experience. Why are you waitlist the course? What are you doing with some of these things? I think we've got more rich data than we've ever had before in higher education because not only do we have our SIS system that's recording every transaction, every attempt, everything that a student's trying to do when they register for a course, but we've got degree audit systems, we've got degree planners, we've got degree schedulers, we've got a whole lot of things that we can start to gather data from.

(25:54):

We're now embarking into an era of ai. And I think for registrars, we need to embrace ai. And I had this conversation with my staff. I said, sometimes when you're using ai, you feel like you're cheating. And they all agreed. And I was like, you're not cheating. You're just being smart efficiency. It's gaining those efficiencies, but it's able to parse out a large amount of data in a very fast way to be able to see some of the insights that you may not have been able to see. And so I think that we need to embrace the AI era, and I think we need to get to a point where our systems are starting to connect so that we can start to use the AI technology to make sense of all this data that we have

(26:46):

That's going to take some time and it's going to, we need some rules around things because right now there's not many rules in that. And a lot of registrars that are probably listening to this, they're going, well, you got to be aware of ferpa. Absolutely. You do not want to put student data into a third party AI system. That's not what you want to do. But you can still leverage ai, and if you've got a secure AI system on your campus, that might be a way to take some of that data and garner some insights about what you're doing, what the behaviors are. But when we get to a point that we can start to connect all our systems together, we've got data warehouses, we've got SIS systems, we've got the degree audit systems, we've got all this stuff that all have pockets of data in it, but it's not all connected together. That's where we need to get to is we need to connect that data together and connect it in a way that it can be queried and that it can be navigable. And I see AI as that connection piece, that connection tissue between all of those to be able to get the insights that we need.

Shauna Cox (27:59):

Absolutely. Quick question, do you have a hard stop at 10 30?

Casey Bullock (28:02):

Nope.

Shauna Cox (28:02):

Okay, perfect. Just one more question anyway, but I just wanted to respect your time there. But we're looking at the registrar's office as we mentioned before, and we're seeing this huge shift from data technology, different levels of collaboration, this more consulting role that you mentioned. How can the registrar's office act as a hub for this institutional innovation, especially in bridging gaps between academic affairs, student services, workforce development, things like that?

Casey Bullock (28:32):

Yeah, that's something that we're doing right now. We're taking advantage of implementing new software. So anytime you implement new software, that's an opportunity that's before you to start to build a collaboration across campus. I mentioned briefly about the streamlining academic management project that we're doing, the way that we've designed it. So a lot of times we can implement software and we got all these people behind the scenes doing the implementation, and it's like, oh, surprise. Here's this new application that's out there and we're going to train you on it. We're going to tell you everything that we need to do about it. We decided to take a different approach to it and that we wanted to get people involved with it. And in the past, there's been some challenges with software implementation where it didn't go as well as they wanted to.

(29:23):

So we ended up designing a whole kind of structure around it. And so we were implementing several pieces of software all at once. And so some of the pieces that we were implementing was outside of my area. It was with the provost, I'm in enrollment management. It was with the provost office. One area was with advising. And so nobody likes to be told what to do with their own job. And advising is an area that they're in the weeds on a lot of things and they see a lot of things they need to be embraced. They need to be brought into the fold because they've got some insights that you're never going to get anywhere else.

(30:17):

So our design, we designed a steering committee that was over everything, which is really some high level people all across campus to get the different insights. On the steering committee, we had VPs, we had faculty senate chairs, we had curriculum chairs, we had deans, we had all sorts of these high level people on the steering committee that was overseeing this implementation of software. Normally they're not at that level, but because we're wanting to streamline the processes that go into it, we were able to get them to have all this communication at the top. And then we developed a working group under for each software that we were developing. And so we were doing curriculum software. So we had curriculum, we had a curriculum management team, we had a catalog team, we have a scheduling team, we have a degree audit team. We had an advisor and registration team.

(31:11):

So we developed all these working groups in which through the steering committee, all these working groups are kind of working independently, but together on a lot of things so that we've got communication going across between the two. Underlying all of that. We've got a change management team that is in every single one of these groups that is talking about how is the change management happening, how are we going to make that work? And then obviously the foundation is the IT team. You can't get anything done without an IT team, so that IT team goes across the broad as well to where they're supporting each and every group. And so with this, we've brought in hundreds of people into this project and we're trying to move as fast as we can, but you have to be okay with it being slowed down just a little bit because once you get that, then that's some efficiencies that you're going to gain on the back end. But as long as you're building that on the front end, that buy-in. And so being able to have that conversation with advisors and saying, here's what you've been looking at. Here's what it's going to look at in a new system. Tell us what you think. What are some of the challenges? What are some of the things that you have? Rather than just handing it out to them and saying, here you go. And they're like, where am I even looking for things? I am so used to doing what I know where things are at.

(32:35):

And so I think we need to be smart about how as registrars, as we implement software all the time, we implement some of these things, use those as opportunities to bring campus together to have a collaborative conversation about is this the right way to do this? Be willing to change the way that you've been doing things. Just because you've been doing it for years doesn't mean that it can't change. You can change it, but you need to create the environment where it can change.

Shauna Cox (33:10):

And I think it develops a level of trust and more respect within the institution, within the department, because you're not just doing your own thing on the side that affects the way someone does their job. And you're saying, Hey, let me get your input. Let me show you how this stuff works from the beginning instead of just handing it to them. And then them most likely being offended because they're like, this is my job. I'm the expert here. Why didn't you ask me any opinions about this? I find that that has been something that has been a common issue when I speak to other higher ed leaders that you have to loop all of those stakeholders in from the beginning.

Casey Bullock (33:49):

And I'm going to be honest, it's exhausting, but it's worth it.

Shauna Cox (33:55):

There's always a payout, but yeah, it's a win-win scenario. But of course, it takes a little blood, sweat and tears to get in that.

Casey Bullock (34:02):

Yeah. But the more people that you can bring in, the better insights. I had this conversation with my staff this morning actually about being able to view things from different lenses and making sure that you're seeing it from all angles. And so we use a lot of reframing organizations. It's a book by Bowman and Deal pretty common in organization theory type of classes. But the concept is being able to formulate different lenses to look at problems to get a better, more rich, analytical view of what the problem is. But it's also that lens is the people, the people that are involved with that is that you want to see it from their perspective, and you want to be able to see what they're seeing and what their challenges are and have those conversations. And I think the registrar's office sits in a unique role that way because we kind of sit at this hub of the institution where we're seeing the data flow back and forth between departments, between students and things, and we can sit and have that conversation saying, Hey, is this working for you? What are some of the challenges? What are some of the things? Let's have conversations about things. We brought all of our advisors in and just had a round table discussion about what's their process, what are some of the challenges? What are you doing? It actually went a long way with the advisors because one, they felt like somebody was listening to them, but two, we actually got some actionable items, some low hanging fruit that we could do, and it was collaborative. It was inspiring actually.

Shauna Cox (35:40):

That's amazing to see. Yeah, I think that level of collaboration is so important because I don't know, people are so used to working in their silos, and then as soon as you open up those doors and you start asking thoughts and opinions and just making this space open for people to feel welcome to do that, I think you can create some really cool things out of

Casey Bullock (36:00):

It. Yeah, it's really about empowerment. Are we empowering our campus to be successful? And it's not just one office that holds that power, it's a community effort.

Shauna Cox (36:16):

Absolutely. Well, Casey, those are all the questions that I have for you, but before I let you go, we of course have to get a restaurant recommendation based on where you are. So you are in Gainesville, Florida. If someone's coming to town, where do they need to go to eat?

Casey Bullock (36:31):

Okay. Is it okay to give two recommendations? Yeah. Okay. So one recommendation is satchels just for the experience. It is just this eclectic pizza place that's here in Gainesville that it's just an experience. You go there. I mean, it's the type of place that it's like they've got the writing all over the walls type of thing. They've got an airplane on top of the building that kids can actually and play in. Interesting. So Satchels is one place to go. Visa is actually pretty good, but the other day I always look up Diners dives and drive-ins. I can't remember the order. Diners

Shauna Cox (37:19):

Drive-in and Dives. I love that show. It's so good.

Casey Bullock (37:24):

So I look it up. And for lunch, just the other day, I went to a place called Germans and it's like these incredible chicken sandwiches. It was awesome. Two chicken patty fried chicken patties on top of each other. It was, it so much food. I, there's no way I'm going to eat it, but it was so good that I ate it all.

Shauna Cox (37:53):

I love that. Well, and Guy always has, so I'm assuming that was on the show.

Casey Bullock (37:57):

Yeah,

Shauna Cox (37:58):

And Guy always finds the best places. I think he clearly has a talent for it, so I love the recommendations. Thank you so much for those. And of course, the conversation really appreciate you sharing your insights.

Casey Bullock (38:11):

Yeah, yeah, love it. Happy to be on here again, and happy to be with you guys. Thanks.