Lisa Rochman (MacEwan University) on The Engine Behind Nimble Continuing Education

On today’s episode of the Illumination by Modern Campus podcast, podcast host Shauna Cox was joined by Lisa Rochman to discuss how purpose-driven innovation and intelligent systems enable continuing education to stay agile and aligned with evolving learner and employer needs.

Transcript

Shauna Cox (00:02):

Lisa, welcome to the Illumination Podcast.

Lisa Rochman (00:06):

Hi Shauna. Thanks for having me today.

Shauna Cox (00:08):

Absolutely. So we are here to talk about developing innovative programs, the approaches, me being nimble, advantages, so many things that we have to talk about here. But I want to kick off our conversation. And first guess, how do you approach developing innovative programs that are going to meet the need of the rapidly changing needs of learners and employers? Kind of a big one.

Lisa Rochman (00:33):

It is, but it's a really timely question. For us at McEwen School of Continuing Education, innovation begins with purpose. So we focus on purpose-driven evidence-informed innovation, meaning that new ideas have to serve a clear need, be grounded in data and connect to our institutional vision. And so how do we do this? Well, for us, this starts with staying close to where change is going to show up. And change is showing up in a lot of places these days. But particularly we're looking at the economy, at workplaces across the university, the research and in our lives, in the lives of our learners. Our goal when possible is not to react to change, but to anticipate the change. So we're paying close attention to where the demand and skill shift are emerging, and we try to balance that insight with informed educated risks. So we're doing regular market scans, ongoing conversations with employers, government industry, keeping up with the research and sifting through the research because today there is so much research coming out on skills.

(01:40):

It's really about understanding what's relevant for where we are situated. And it's about staying tuned, staying attuned to what our learners themselves are looking for, what's motivating them and what are the barriers they're facing. And then we use this to help us determine what are our new programs, what are the base programs we need for employers to be able to customize? Because oftentimes we know employers are looking for something to happen quite soon, and what are the new modules we need to add to our programs to ensure their current up to date and relevant? And we put all this information together to help us decide not only what to offer, but also how we want to offer it. Because quite honestly, you can have the best program in the world, but if you schedule it at the wrong time or the wrong time of the year, you're not going to have it succeed.

(02:31):

So I mean, recently we developed some new AI and data focus programs and we were really intentional in the design that they were shorter modular, more personalizable. And this came from the perspective prospective learners from industry and from research. And we're really seeing that flexible, stackable option where people can put in the different modules that really meet their learning needs. So we take all that information and then we have to be willing to take evidence informed risks within the school of continuing education. We don't avoid risks, we try to manage it intelligently. We ground it in data purpose and alignment with the university's strengths and capacity and skill areas. Ideally, we would always have all the information before we move forward, but we can't. So when we're trying to develop innovative programs, one of the things we do to try to mitigate some of the risks is we start small.

(03:36):

We'll pilot it, we'll have a feedback loop when we start programs, we look at ROI and scalability though, and this is not as a rigid go and stop decider, but more as a way to ensure we're investing wisely in building sustainable impact. And when we talk about return on investments, it's not just fiscal. And for us, what's really important is also looking at does this course expand access for a new population? Are we supporting a known need in the community? Are we laying the groundwork for future growth in that area? And I think that that's really an important consideration, not just the financial side. And so ultimately our goal is to keep the learner, employer and institution all in alignment, balancing innovation with risk and quality. And every new program should be addressing a real need and not just adding to the noise that we're hearing today. So it's an evidence informed, outcome oriented approach. And one of the things we see is that OURT M comes with such diverse expertise and that really helps us enriches how we're able to interpret all that data that we're getting to make our decisions.

Shauna Cox (04:58):

Absolutely. So many rich things that went into that response on just how complex approaching developing these innovative programs can be. So I kind of want to just look at the foundation and ask you, I know you shared some best practices there and continuing education oftentimes lends itself to be the more flexible agile extension arm of the institution. But what kind of practices or really a mindset, I feel like a mindset's a really big component here. Have you found most effective in trying to maintain that nimbleness within the CE department?

Lisa Rochman (05:38):

I love that question because nimbleness for us is both mindset and structure. It's about staying connected, reducing friction, and building capacity to continuously adapt. So we're moving quickly, but we're moving responsibly. So from the mindset perspective, we approach our work with an entrepreneurial and innovative lens. To me, I see continuing education as one of the university's innovation labs. It's a space to test new ideas, explore new partnerships and advance opportunities, but opportunities that are grounded in data research and purpose. So for us, an entrepreneurial and innovative mindset means being open to new ideas, new approaches, embracing calculated risks, learning from outcomes through reflection and maintaining persistence and moving forward. We recognize that not everything, unfortunately, we'll go as planned. And instead of treating this as a failure, we treat this as feedback and we reflect on it and we use those lessons to help us move forward.

(06:45):

And part of that, cultivating that mindset is also ensuring that our teams have access to training, access to explore what others are doing in this space, time and space to cross-pollinate ideas, to engage with industry and community. And this is very important in our continuing education world where resources are very limited. And really to keep this kind of mindset, we have to be intentional and carve out that space from the start. So we have an attitude or an approach of entrepreneur innovation and we embrace experimentation, but then you need a system mindset alone is not going to be enough. And so what we also focus on is ensuring that we have the system that supports nimbleness. Our system is designed for speed, communication and accountability. So what we have set, well, we need, sorry, I'll have to cut that part out.

Shauna Cox (07:52):

No, you're all good. You can just restart from that sentence.

Lisa Rochman (07:55):

So we've taken, for lack of a better way of explaining it, we've taken sort of a supply chain approach to development. My team fondly refers to it as our development engine and it's viewing agility as a collective and shared capacity within the school. And there are three primary areas that allow us to use nimble, the mindset that we have to put into this system to remain nimble. So we have one area that focuses on outreach, talking to employers, subject matter experts, community partners to gather intelligence, to build relationships. We have another area that's focused on developing content, working with instructional designer or subject matter experts to turn ideas into high quality learning experiences. And then we have an area that's focused on delivery, setting up logistics systems and learner supports. And then every week we get these cross-functional working groups with these three areas. But the meetings also include our marketing coordinator, scheduling team, finance, and a member from the leadership team.

(09:06):

And this ensures that everyone stays connected. Issues are surface quickly and decisions are made with full context and strategic items can move quickly to the full leadership team and get an answer very quickly. And things like governance of the university governance process, our marketing, our program design, all feed into this process. So we really match mindset and system and new ideas and innovative ideas are reviewed for alignment with institutional vision, with approach with ROI, sustainability, market demand and time to market, sorry, I messed up. We're going to take that part again. So what we do first is we take our new ideas and initiatives and we review them for institutional vision approach, ROI, sustainability, market demand and time to market. And then once an initiative gets that green light, it enters our development engine where it goes through until delivery. And this structure has really allowed us to launch new programs in significantly less time.

(10:18):

And so an answer to your question, I really think it's important that we empower our team to think outside the box, to focus on collaboration, communication, entrepreneurialism, and to have clear systems of support and accountability. Ultimately, nimbleness for us is about empowering people, encouraging collaboration, building the channels for communication, maintaining systems that support responsible innovation. And what's interesting is these same mindsets and skills that I'm talking about how our team has, those are the same skills we're hearing employers talking about today, agility, problem solving, collaboration, open to change. So I think it's so interesting how we see that what those skills that are needed out there out in the workforce today that are in high demand are also what we need in continuing education to move forward innovatively.

Shauna Cox (11:12):

Absolutely. And you're talking about structure there and I think that's really critical. It is literally the foundation of your strategy and things like that. So looking at the structure, I just want to expand on it and ask, with innovation, it's really easy to dive in and maybe even get too far ahead of ourselves. So how do you balance innovation with that need for the quality, the scalability, and the alignment with the overall institutional strategy?

Lisa Rochman (11:41):

Yeah, so I personally believe that speed and quality can coexist, but for that to happen, we need innovation to rest on strong academic strategic foundations. So we need to ensure that we're developing things quickly to the standards that we want them developed. So how do we do this in a university environment? We have a lot of governance within our structures, but we view governance as an opportunity as opposed to something that slows us down. So it's sort of like our quality backbone. And this ensures that what we produce is clear, credible, and aligned with institutional standards. For us. All of our new certificates go through three levels of governance before we can launch them. And it's this governance that helps us test our ideas, refine them, and make sure we haven't overlooked key details and the excitement of innovation. It requires us to confirm the market research that our program fits within the university's mission and vision, and that we're meeting the expectations of both learners and faculty.

(13:02):

So I would say governance is a key aspect, but we also take a very intentional approach to scalability and planning. While as I shared earlier, we do start out small. We plan for growth early. So that means asking questions like do we have the instructors? Do we have a means to integrate learner feedback after our first iteration? How are we assessing the learning? How are we assessing our student outcomes? How are we going to build from this program to other programs or how does this program builds from other programs? Do we have the space? And really, I have to say our governance system really helps ensure that we have thought about all of this. Another area I would say that's really important for us and goes kind of to the core of who we are is when we're thinking of doing something new, launching a new offering, it's important for us to keep an eye on what our peer institutions are doing.

(14:03):

Edmonton as an esco learning city has lots of post-secondary institutes within it, and our goal is to create more learning opportunities for students, more choice, more fit, and not just create competition. So we would always rather build a complimentary program and not a competing program. And so part of our structure is looking at what else is happening in Edmonton, what else is being offered? And for our team, this really resonates. Our focus is on improving the learning ecosystem and not competing on enrollments. Recently when we launched new AI and data courses, we really needed to focus because there's a lot of work and a lot of coming out in these areas, and it's about what's our niche. So we're complimenting the ecosystem and not competing within it.

Shauna Cox (15:01):

Absolutely. I love the idea of you mentioning looking at the peer institution and not really seeing them as competition. I think that's really key there in that you are choosing other programs that can kind of not be fighting at one another. I think oftentimes we hear higher ed leaders fighting at each other. It's a competition. School competition is very healthy, but it's not the end all to be all. And I think naturally with higher ed, higher ed has this very natural traditional structure that it's always lived in. CE has always kind of pushed those boundaries in it. So I'm very curious to see from the CE side of things, what are some of the challenges that you've faced in terms of driving innovation from a CE side of things and how have you kind of navigated those?

Lisa Rochman (15:55):

Good question. And I'm sure my first challenge will not surprise you that it is the difference in tempo. So we are market pace and the university has very deliberate and careful pace. And really that poses a challenge because speed matters for us, whereas university registrars, it academic governance and other systems really have different timelines, different expectations, even just language and acronym differences can really make collaboration complex. So you have a grant and you have a really tight timeline with funding restrictions. How do you get through all the hr, all of those things within your five days to start, how do we respond to employers? So these are some of the challenges that we face. And one thing I really feel is really important for us here at McEwen is that continuing education is positioned alongside all other academic portfolios. So we are not a separate arm.

(17:01):

We have a clear voice in all strategic decisions. I sit at dean's council, we have a seat across institutional committees, we participate in joint initiatives. And I've seen over time how this really creates opportunities for influence collaboration and communication. And I think keeping continuing education as a part of academic affairs really allows it to thrive because it gives us the opportunity to explain the why, not just the what we need and not the how, because we don't always know the how, but it allows us to explain what we're trying to accomplish and work as an academic affairs team to figure out how to resolve that. And the second challenge that we often face is that integrating continuing education systems with enterprise IT learning platforms, student information systems, and all kinds of other technical systems, we require systems that give us that flexibility, that collect the data that we need, whereas the other side of the campus, they have very different data that they need.

(18:16):

So how do we resolve this time? Empathy and strong change management is really what we've found that work. Having support from university senior executive is really important too because then you know that other people are trying to help you make things happen and helping you find solutions. The challenge of course, is when people want to help, but it's not always clear how, and that's where I think having this seat at the academic affairs table is really important because I understand better how they work, they understand better how I work and we can find that space where we can work together and achieve all of our goals.

Shauna Cox (19:07):

I love hearing that you guys are a lot more centralized, that you guys are a part of the institution and not siloed off. I always get giddy when people tell me that because I'm like, great, you guys are moving in the right direction. Not to say that I am the person that knows all the answers, but that is I think where the institution should be going is by centralize everything and moving towards that same mission. And it kind of dovetails off to my next question in terms of lifelong learning, it is something that is continuing education units have always been serving. It is something that higher ed as a whole is moving towards a lot more optimistically. So from your perspective, what role should lifelong learning play in shaping say the next decade of higher education?

Lisa Rochman (19:57):

Yeah, lifelong learning is essential because really as you're saying, the pace of change is going to outstrip any type of front loaded education. And I mean that's what we've traditionally seen where you front load education and then you go to work. And I don't think that's going to be how things can function anymore. It's not a peripheral concept. It's a core part of how higher education is going to have to think and operate and how people and employers are going to view the changing needs for skills. We could talk about the rate of technology change, automation, job change, skill change, skill gap, skill mismatch or productivity. But regardless of where you go, it's fair to say that today and into the future, people will need it to continuously upscale for both work and social participation. And this rate of change is going to have people coming back into education again and again.

(20:58):

There are so many statistics out there about skill gaps. I was recently reading something and it was talking about how 28% of HR and L and D professionals think that skill gaps are going to limit the ability to expand to new markets that nine out of 10 organizations are seeing it skill shortages. And I mean there are indicators that we're seeing in the Canadian market that the hiring paradigm may move more towards skills and experience over traditional credentials. And we're certainly not there yet, but I do think we have to be aware that this could be coming. And so from a continuing education perspective, lifelong learning is both about creating the system and opportunity where people can upskill reskill to keep themselves and organizations competitive. But it's also about creating the capacity to learn, to adapt the digital fluency, the critical thinking and the curiosity that allows people to navigate constant change.

(22:07):

I'm a big believer in lifelong learning being both a skill and a mindset, and I think we can add developing those skills into more and more programs. And so people really get that curiosity to keep coming back and learning. For me, also, one important thing about continuing education and lifelong learning as well is that it has low barriers to entry. We need to make sure education is accessible to everyone and so people can access the education and training and continue to work and learn and do the things they need to do. So that is one aspect of continuing education that I really love, is that we tend to have lower barriers to really let people come in. I don't know where I heard this. I'm not going to take credit for having created it, but I once heard a really, I think heard a really interesting metaphor for continuing education.

(23:04):

It's like a really well-developed highway system. So you've got lots of lanes, but you have on ramps, you have off ramps, you have bridges, new places to pull over for a bit. It's really that system, and I really like that approach to looking at higher education and I think higher education is going. I think the offerings and continuing education are going to continue to evolve as the skills people need and change. I mean, I think for us, it's a great example. You offer a project management course, but now as we move forward, it's adding in that AI and project management course, that data analytics, that AI and data analytics. It's really about how we're going to take learning to the next steps and how people are going to need to continuously engage and reengage with learning opportunities. And at an institutional level, the shift towards lifelong learning will also reshape how higher education structures itself. It's going to take a while, but I think we're going to see new credential models, more flexible systems, stronger employer partnerships, and I hope a much more dynamic relationship between the credit and the non-credit side.

Shauna Cox (24:30):

Absolutely. I think that is kind of where higher ed is moving and pushing towards, and there's a lot of momentum. So very excited to see where it goes. Nervous to see where it goes in 10 years. I think it's going to be completely upside down from what we may expect. Who knows, it might stay the same. We don't know. But Lisa, those are all the questions I have for you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and chatting with me. It was such a great conversation.

Lisa Rochman (24:54):

Thank you. Thank you very much.