Andrew Potter (University of Georgia) on Aligning Academic Pathways with Workforce Realities

On today’s episode of the Illumination by Modern Campus podcast, podcast host Shauna Cox was joined by Andrew Potter to discuss  the need to embed real industry experiences into academic programs and the urgency of building a skills based learning ecosystem that keeps pace with rapid technological change.

Transcript

Shauna Cox (00:02):

Andrew, welcome to the Illumination Podcast.

Andrew Potter (00:05):

It's great to be here. Thank you, Shauna.

Shauna Cox (00:07):

Absolutely. So we are here to talk about collapsing the walls between higher ed and industry, and especially with your background, I think you can really speak to this topic. So want to kick off our conversation and first ask, how can universities transform the classroom to career pathway by embedding industry partnerships to ensure that graduates are really job ready from the day that they start?

Andrew Potter (00:29):

So first of all, I'll just say being ready on day one seems like a pipe dream at this point from somebody who spent a long time in industry is a senior executive where it seemed like we were having to invest 12 to 18 months of training with even top candidates who were early career hires. But there is a lot of really interesting things that are going on when I look at even what's happening at the University of Georgia and a lot of our peer and aspirate institutions around the country. So I think the main thing is, as I like to talk about, is you've got higher ed, which is in a bubble here. You've got industry which is in the bubble here, and it's all about getting the bubbles together. Some of the things that I think that are working very well, so one is vertically integrated projects.

(01:16):

So you're seeing this in a lot of R one institutions right now where sometimes industry is treated just as a funder of this research work that's being done. But if you can integrate, for lack of a better term, the corporate sponsor who's aligned with the research being done, you've got undergraduate students, graduate students, faculty, and now industry running together on some type of research. So I think that's a really interesting way that is allowing the university to bring corporations in industry onto campus. A second way that I'll point out, and this is something that we've been focused a lot on at the University of Georgia, is growing our project-based learning. So when you think about companies bringing projects to campus to source solutions with students, I run our executive development program here at the University of Georgia and every eight weeks we have a team of four students working with another company on some project that they're sourcing in beyond just the skill development that takes place.

(02:22):

Through programs like that, you're also getting students exposed to what workflow looks like in an industry setting, whether it's client meetings or are they running agile work breakdown structure, whatever it might be. You're giving the talent pipeline a deeper sense of how workflow actually happens at the industry level, which as a former employer, that was always one of the biggest challenge. A lot of your early career hires just simply don't understand how work actually gets done. And so I think project-based learning is a huge potential. There are additional things that I think universities are doing well from capstone projects to consulting clubs. A lot of these involve connections where workflow from industry is actually being brought on into campus. So all the examples I just gave you so far are examples of where actually workflow problems, challenges from industry are being brought onto campus. A second type that I'll talk about briefly as well is I think GA at least I think does a really nice job of getting companies on campus from, for lack of a better term, a PR perspective.

(03:33):

So you have business of the week or business of the day, you have executives in my program, for example, who come in. We typically host about two a session and we call 'em executive sessions. Well, we'll bring in senior executives from companies who just spend 60 to 90 minutes with our students talking about their career, how they got there, how did they connect, what's happening in the university to what's going to happen after the university. And so I think there's a lot of those softer points where students may not be doing actual work with the company, but the companies are winding up on campus in some fashion, which is allowing, I think, to dispel some of the dissonance and reduce that skills gap that currently exists between higher ed and industry. So I think those are the two big examples I'd probably start with first.

Shauna Cox (04:18):

Absolutely. And I think that even having the employer come to the campus illustrate what exactly someone's career could look like. It may not be that person is the student is specifically working in the, working with the employer and having the job at hand right this second. But I think showing them the context and that bigger picture of what their career could look like really helps 'em visualize where they want to go, where they're at now, where what they need to do to get to what that outcome can be, and does that outcome align with them. So I think showing that really adds to kind of that ROI aspect. And you mentioned bringing these bubbles together and maybe the PR perspective, but I really want to talk about the collaborations here because we have the employer side, but at the same time as we're going more towards this workforce focused world, I think some people get scared about what happens to academic integrity and all the more traditional side of the institution. So what collaborations best align academic programs with those real time workforce needs while at the same time preserving the academic integrity that some people might be worried about? Sure.

Andrew Potter (05:35):

And again, this is my opinion, I spent nearly my entire career in the industry. I only have about five years of exposure from the higher ed side. So there would probably be, there's much smarter people here at the University of Georgia who would probably disagree with my opinion on this. But I think far and away the most impactful way, and probably the way that you can scale initially based on the infrastructure that exists in higher ed is short duration project sprints, ideally six to eight weeks where you're pairing students or teams of students with a company to actually work on some collaborative project. The reason why I say short duration is from the industry side, I could not wait for results for 16 weeks. I mean, there are projects that run here on campus where students are working with a company on the project, but good grief, that's longer than a quarter.

(06:28):

I can't wait that that long for results or input or data. So I think from the company side, it needs to be six to eight weeks. And then also what that allows you to do from the academic side is you can actually embed those projects in courses. One of the companies that I've been very impressed with on the tech side, and I suspect we'll talk a little bit about data and tech later, but there's a Canadian based company called Ripen, and Ripen has over 40,000 companies on their platform and they service projects in higher ed. So when you think about not having to disrupt the higher ed structure a lot while maintaining the academic integrity, which at the University of Georgia, what that means is having faculty involved with the process, the ability to embed short duration projects in courses is probably the easiest way to, number one, check that box, but then scale up for as many students as possible.

(07:21):

So to me, I think when you talk about the important academic integrity that exists here, the importance of the faculty, that is your probably easiest way to get this done and then scale it across hundreds, thousands of students. The second thing that I would talk about when you think about academic integrity is looking for what we call the University of Georgia Experiential learning. So experiential learning at the University of Georgia is a graduation requirement, and a whole category of our experiential learning includes work integrated learning, internships, co-ops, apprenticeships, even project-based learning if it's long enough. And so a lot of those components are being sourced from off campus, from an industry, from employers, but yet all the work actually goes through our university curriculum committee. There's a standing subcommittee that reviews all these activities to review them to meet a graduation requirement. So here again, you have the industry side and the academic side basically working together even though they never talk to each other unless they're talking through me, but literally working together to build this. Right. And I think that's another way where when you have external things like this, which could be required for graduation or maybe not, but involves the two sides working together to actually create this type of programming. So those are I think the top two examples that I would probably throw out.

Shauna Cox (08:50):

And I want to pull on some of the themes or topics that you alluded to there and talk about the scaling, the idea of experiential learning and really the impact that all of that can have. So how can institutions use the data and the technology that we alluded to there to personalize track and really validate experiential learning outcomes, not only to the student, but obviously the broader institution and employers?

Andrew Potter (09:15):

Yeah, so I think that's a great question, and I think that question is actually at the heart of a lot of the robust discussion around the value proposition of higher education right now. What is this thing? As I talk to my students when I get them the first day of class, I want to know why did you decide to give up six to 7% of your life based on lifespan rates and probably 150,000 of somebody's money, maybe it's yours, maybe it's somebody else's to do this. And I think this question about looking at what we're doing from a technical side to track this build this scale, this report on this is really, really important. I think the most exciting initiative that's been going on now, at least in the higher ed space for probably about the last five years is the comprehensive winter record space.

(10:06):

This really began as an initiative about 20 years ago coming out of the National Chamber where there was a lot of conversation around what was then called learning and employment records. So at the University of Georgia, we actually, this fall, we just launched our comprehensive learner record and what the comprehensive learner record does in terms of thinking just in courses you need to take. Now we're starting to index both our courses and non courses against competence and skills that industry is looking for. So a student now should be able on the front end to say, alright, if I have a sense on where I want to go, I know I need these skills, here are the list of courses that will help me get there. And then on the backend, which I think is really important, I'll come back to this in just a second, but the ability for students to articulate what they've done during their collegiate career aligned to skills.

(10:58):

So when they get into that interview and they're talking to that employer, they can actually talk about, well, here's what I actually worked on, here's what I did. And I think that for me, coming from an industry, higher ed was one of the big revelations of you had students who were giving up six to 7% of their life, they were spending 150,000 of somebody's money. And really, in many ways, the vast majority have no understanding of how what they're doing is connecting to them where they're going next. So I think technical platforms that allow you to facilitate something like a comprehensive learner record or learning unemployment record that indexes learning to skills that checks the box on solving a lot of those problems for students. So one, I'd start with that. I'm a big fan, very passionate about comprehensive learner write records. I think beyond that, you do need some form of an enterprise system on campus that allows you to identify the types of work integrated learning programs that you're promoting, track students, types of students, types of companies that are moving through that pipeline and then also allow you to track outcomes.

(12:06):

I think longitudinal data in terms of outcomes is really hard. I mean, even here at the University of Georgia, we struggle holistically to say, well, three years after graduation, students will, right? It's tough for us to finish that sentence. I think some of the platforms are getting better. I mean, three all mentioned. I spent a lot of time talking to a lot of these tech companies, but simplicity, suitable podium, all three have really interesting platforms in terms of one, tracking the pipeline while the student is with you at the university, but then also extending that tracking where you think about where they might go next. And I think those companies represent the tip of the spear when we think about where our students are going and what we're preparing them to do. I think the error of just saying, Hey, welcome to campus. You're going to spend four or five years here and you're going to get X credential. While that's important, I think there's going to be more pressure the further we go out while we've got to be able to tie that credential to what skills have we embedded in that credential? And that simple question is why the University of Georgia has adopted a comprehensive learner record. The classes are great, but we also need to be able to help students understand the skills that are embedded in that. And you got to have a tech platform to do that.

Shauna Cox (13:25):

Absolutely. And I've definitely seen the comprehensive learning workers just kind of really come to surface and really, really important, especially in a time, we know that there's almost 50 million adults with some college no degree coming in to finish it. They're really becoming the larger demographic than a traditional age student. And I think what we're really speaking to here is the idea of the lifelong learner. So how can higher ed and industry, of course, we need that level of collaboration there, kind of build this lifelong learning ecosystem that is going to support this continuous upskilling and community growth, those on-ramps and off-ramps and showing learners those outcomes, as you mentioned, to how they can tie a program right to a career.

Andrew Potter (14:12):

Well, great question. This is where I think a lot of the innovation is going to take place in the next five to 10 years. You already have, so Georgia Tech is launching a college essentially that will do exactly this, right? This is a lifetime learning college. I can't remember the name of it right now, but I think, so the big challenge you have right now, technology is moving so fast, the workforce is being disrupted. A lot of the figures that I look at, it's almost every eight months, technology is lapping the workforce. And so when you think about a four year degree program, I think we could have a reasonable conversation as to how applicable four year degree program is to this environment. And when you think about some of the professional degrees, if you go to med school, a lot of what you're learning in that first year of med school is largely outdated by the time you graduate three years later and you go into residency.

(15:06):

So I think the model in terms of time as it's tied to higher ed is going to change. I'm sure there will be people who disagree with you. I think you'll always have four year schools like the University of Georgia, but I think my grandkids someday, my girls are 27 and 25. I hope to have grandkids at some point. I think my grandkids will be looking at a very different and dynamic higher education world where I think the minority of students, just one jet generation away from me will be going to a four year school. I just think technology is moving so fast. The level of disruption is so high that you are going to see a changing relationship between the education pipeline and the industry pipeline where my hope is they become more entwined. And so you're going to have an out out kind of process as the talent pool in the United States is just consistently upskilling.

(16:04):

And so that's a very different world right now. If I go back to my bubbles, those two bubbles are going to have to be completely aligned to make this work, because I just don't think in terms of the level of cost, the level of speed and pace of disruption that you can literally completely separate these things. So I actually think we don't have the answer for that space yet. There's been a lot of work on looking at everything from micro colleges to tech accelerators. When you look at groups like Flatiron, et cetera, who are, you're basically running through high touch tech training for six to maybe 12 months, and then you're into the workforce. Yeah, I think there's going to be a lot of disruption here. I don't know what the answer is, but I think the model where the vast majority of high school students are going to a four year degree program, I think that's going to increasingly become the minority over the next 40 to 50 years.

Shauna Cox (17:01):

And I really want to expand on that idea of the model really shifting. I think this whole lifelong learner ecosystem, it is not just going to live in a CE unit. I definitely believe that it needs to expand across the institution as this model's kind of shifting. But within that, the institution itself obviously needs to have its ducks in a row to make sure everything is moving efficiently, not only for staff, but also for students. So we may not know what it is just yet or how it's shifting, but what steps can universities take to unite more of the academic affairs, the career services, and the CE unit into a one learner to earner experience?

Andrew Potter (17:44):

So I'll give you again my opinion, alright, and this is largely driven by my employer side, but we are in a skills game right now. This is about skills, not just at the state level and national, but at the global level. And we've got a situation now too where talent is globally mobile, and as we learned during COVID, talent can be remote. So you've got a lot of factors right now, which are putting pressure on, for lack of a better term, the traditional way we think about the pipeline. So one, I think universities, and you see this happening right now, are going to have to spend a lot more time thinking about skills. So rather than thinking just in terms of discipline and degree, and I'm not trying to get rid of discipline and degree, but I think you have discipline, degree and skill. So I think that's going to raise a lot of really interesting conversations inside the university for sure, as to what does gen ed look like?

(18:44):

What does the courses in a certain major look like? How many of those individual classes in a certain major need to be in partnership with or informed by industry? So I think we're in this really interesting phase right now, but I think this is also going to serve that a lot of those groups that you mentioned, like academic affairs, career, I think student affairs has a huge role to play here. When you think about how all these pieces integrate, I think in many ways some of those, what we at UJA called non-academic units, either not a college, I think they're going to have an increasingly and important role to play in terms of how we think about preparing students for this new varied world. So I actually think career centers are probably more important than they've ever been. I think student affairs is probably more important than they've ever been.

(19:33):

And part of that is because I do think the pipeline is going to have more off-ramps and on-ramps, et cetera. If you think about the university, you're going to have talent coming in and leaving the university at different states with different amounts and different types of social capital work, skill capital, and you're going to need some of these units to help play the role to catch some people up, help some people accelerate faster. So I think those groups, when you talk about your learner to earner experience, the pipeline is just going to be so much more diverse that you're almost going to need to, probably my career center guy is going to grin when he hears this, but you're going to have to probably overfund some of those groups to help with this situation. So yeah, I think when you think about the next five years, I think disruption is here.

(20:22):

Now, I don't think this is a pie in the sky. I know people have been talking about changing higher ed for centuries, but I think just given the pace of technology that talent is globally mobile, that talent can be remote, this is going to put added stress on the system that's going to force change. So I think in the next five years, you are going to see these learner to earn or experiences that are going to be unique. They're going to be new, and there's going to be a lot of competition around who can build it the best.

Shauna Cox (20:50):

Absolutely. Well, Andrew, those are all the questions that I have for you, but is there anything else that you'd like to add about collapsing these walls, bringing the bubbles together, or anything else that I missed that you want to speak about? Yeah,

Andrew Potter (21:03):

I think a lot of times, and certainly I was guilty of this five years ago when I was a C-suite executive, I think that the tendency has been, the bubbles kind of point the fingers at each other. And I think both sides, both the higher ed side as well as the industry side, have got to realize that we've got to get in the same canoe. We got to row in the same direction. And that's going to involve, give and take on both sides. I think from an industry side, when you look at project-based learning, when you look at vertically integrated projects to the examples that I mentioned before, I think companies need to step up to the plate and probably contribute not just capital resources, but human resources to this process.

(21:48):

You need to get your junior execs, you need to get your division heads, you need to get them on campus, talking to faculty, working with students. That's part of the investment that I think companies need to make to bring the bubbles together. And then I think from the higher ed side, I think we've got to kind step back and think about, alright, well why is it, this is one of my big questions and I'm just not as smart as people here, but it seems like no matter whatever you major in, it's 120 credit hours. Well, why is that? And figuring out, could you have a major that could be 90, could it be 60? I'm a big fan of faster, cheaper, so what can we do faster? And does every degree program have to be the same? And I think that's where I think some of the reflective thinking inside the academy married with some of the sacrifices that corporations will need to make.

(22:36):

I think together, that's really what drives it. So this is not a higher ed needs to change. This is not an industry needs to change. I think this is an education pipeline that needs to change because both of those parties have such important roles to play, but also important investments in terms of when they think about where do you see the state of Georgia or the United States in 5, 10, 15, 20 years? I think we have a much greater likelihood of winning and winning big if we've got those two bubbles working together. So that'd be my main thing is we got to get both sides to the table together.

Shauna Cox (23:13):

Well, and the time is now to be doing

Andrew Potter (23:15):

That. Absolutely. Yeah.

Shauna Cox (23:16):

There's no waiting for anything. I think now is the time that we need to have these questions, have these conversations, and start moving towards where we need to go. Otherwise we're going to get stuck and fall behind.

Andrew Potter (23:28):

And this is where key players, modern campus comes in as well. Right. I mean, I think you guys all have a key role to play in terms of keeping us all honest and helping us really think about what are the real challenges. I was just speaking in Atlanta yesterday or Wednesday and talking about some of the data we're seeing in the pipeline, like underemployment rates of recent college grads, and then looking at how that layers on current market projections for job openings, et cetera. And it's like, yeah, these are some big thorny problems that we all just need to get together and figure out.

Shauna Cox (24:03):

Absolutely. And the whole idea of coming together, figuring it out together, not saying, oh, well this is my data. I'm gatekeeping all these strategies. There is a level of healthy competition, but not everything needs to be a competition. And I think supporting one another is the way that we need to move forward.

Andrew Potter (24:21):

Yeah, I think if I boil it down to one thing that I'm really excited about at the University of Georgia is this move that we're taking to embed skills in degrees. Because I think at the end of the day, higher education for now and for the foreseeable future, I mean, we deal in degrees, we deal in credentials, and the ability to connect industry demanded skills inside that and reshape our curriculum, that seems like a really important first step that's bringing the two priorities together. So I'm really excited for the initiative work that's going on in that space here.

Shauna Cox (24:54):

Absolutely. I'm excited to see where it goes. I definitely don't think degrees are dead. They just need to be more digestible and easier for people to obtain short term and build upon later on. But Andrew, again, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your insights. I really do appreciate the conversation.

Andrew Potter (25:12):

Shauna, it is been great. Keep up the great work and go dogs.