Jo-Anne Clarke (University of Victoria) on Evolving Higher Education into a Lifelong Workforce Partner

On this episode, Jo-Anne Clarke, Dean of the Division of Continuing Studies at the University of Victoria, discusses how authentic collaboration with employers shapes responsive program design while examining how microcredentials can evolve into stackable pathways that support long-term career mobility.

Transcript

Shauna Cox (00:02):

Joanne, welcome to the Illumination Podcast.

Jo-Anne Clarke (00:05):

Great. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here with you.

Shauna Cox (00:08):

I am so excited to dive into our conversation. We got lifelong workforce partners, all the good stuff that we need to talk about. So I'm just going to kick off our conversation and first ask, how can universities evolve from being more degree granting institutions to becoming lifelong workforce partners that respond to the real time labor market needs?

Jo-Anne Clarke (00:29):

Well, it's interesting. I do think there's an important place for degree granting institutions in their traditional form, but I think as you know from your conversations at evolution, this is not new for continuing education. So within continuing education, we have a very long history of serving working professionals and providing access to really practical education. So recently I visited the University of Saskatchewan, and I was reminded of this legacy because up there they have a photo on the wall of the better farming train, which if you've never heard of that, it was an agricultural teaching and demonstration train that literally chugged across the prairies to different farming towns to teach them about sort of industrial modern practices of farming. And this was back in 1914 for about 10 years or so. So I dunno, I think that's how cool is that we've been providing access to education for a very long time. I think continuing education's always been responsive to labor market needs. And what's different now is that our credit partners are really interested more and more. And also it's the pace and magnitude and scale of change that's happening, that's changing how universities are responding to market changes.

Shauna Cox (01:47):

Absolutely. And I want to talk about the word partner there because there are so many partners and stakeholders within just the higher ed ecosystem itself, but I think lifelong learning automatically is going to translate to external partners. And oftentimes there are employers who are looking for X program or X skill and that graduate and it's almost like a transactional relationship or it's I need this program and higher ed is like, here you go. But what does authentic collaboration between the educators and the employers look like when you're co-developing programs that focus on the re-skilling and up-skilling that is really needed in today's society?

Jo-Anne Clarke (02:31):

Yeah, I like that question. I like the word authentic combined with collaboration, because that's really the most important part. At the University of Victoria, we have this phrase that's kind of embedded into our strategic plans and approaches for the work we do. And it came for our indigenous partners, and it's called, I hope I see it right, ital Noel. And it's the Han word, and it's attributed to the Laan people here. And what it means is respecting the rights of one another and being in right with all living things. So for me, I think about authentic collaboration, it's rooted in that idea of relationship built on understanding and mutual respect. So what you said is transactional relationship. It's actually needs to go a little bit deeper than that. Now. I recognize employers are often very busy and they are just saying Help. We just need some help with this.

(03:21):

But it takes some time. They have some really critical insight into the realities of their sector. They know about the skill gaps, they know about what the workforce challenges and needs are and how to be successful. I mean, my goodness, they're the people hiring our learners. So we have to, in my experience, true collaboration comes with a lot of listening and asking questions and trying to listen to those answers and probing and teasing out what the actual needs are and what we can deliver. So they're the subject matter experts in many ways. And then we are really, our expertise is bringing adult learning and curriculum development, good instruction, delivery, that whole theory of how you build a good program and deliver it. So there's a really beautiful partnership when you can get your roles and responsibilities clarified and start working together on each of those strengths.

Shauna Cox (04:13):

And I think it sounds easier said than done, it sounds like. Oh yeah, you just listen and you just hear each other out and you collaborate. But obviously easier said than done. But so key to, I think really narrow down your focus and just get to the bottom of each other's mission and just see how you can help each other out. And so when we're talking about the employers and we're talking about this idea of the upskilling, reskilling, think immediately, I dunno if it happens for you, but it happens for me. Microcredentials pops up in my head. That is just the first thing that naturally lends itself to upskilling re-skilling. And it's been a hot topic in higher ed for the last couple of years, but it hasn't been new for the last couple of years. It's kind like lifelong learning. It is kind of always been there, but it's brought to the surface more. So how can Microcredentials move beyond this more short-term skills gain in the moment to something that is a more stackable career long learning pathway that's going to drive the mobility and opportunity for learners?

Jo-Anne Clarke (05:25):

Yeah, microcredentials is really, as you said, it's not a new concept, but it's really, I think opened up opportunities for conversation for some people galvanize around that term because industry likes it, academia likes it. It's creating this opportunity to be creative in how we create programs. So that idea of stacking laddering really around that, you're going to look at competencies. And so I do think there's a really nice progression path that we can map out to help people in that lifelong learning journey. Because in the old days, people would go to school, a clear path might be to go get a diploma or degree, and then to go into the workforce and work, and then just on the job training and progression through the company. Nowadays, people move between companies. They may have some on the job training, they want transferable skills, and things are changing so fast that people need upskill and reskill.

(06:22):

And I think that's what a lot of people are really, it's not just something that's kind of cool to do. It's a real need to keep up and keep pace. And the reality is, we can't always do this on our own. We can't do it in isolation. We need each other as partners, and we need to really help learners and workers develop what they need. And a lot of people just really like learning. It's also really good for social learning. It's good for connecting with other people, other ideas, but building those, stacking those stacking modularized components, you also need to have a cohesive understanding of what the program competencies and outcomes are so that you're not, they always, they can stand alone, but also there's a progression through there. Now, I also think there's lots of professionals, particularly coming back to school, they don't want to go back and repeat.

(07:11):

They don't need to do some of that foundational knowledge. So again, we have to be very responsive and applied and practical and allow them to plug and play what they need. And again, this is where micro-credentials offer a very useful opportunity for people to say, I'm really good at this. I'm not so good at this. So can I get a course just in this and add it to my skillset? I think there's lots more flexibility than there used to be, and that's a good thing for people, to be honest. It's a core of adult learning. It's always been there that adult learners bring their experience into the learning and that they are in charge of their own learning path.

Shauna Cox (07:47):

I think that that component there makes it more attractive to adult learners, those who haven't been in school for a long time, who might be nervous to come back. If you have that plug and play component and you have that level of flexibility, I think it's a lot more warming and welcoming so that they have the confidence to come back in. Because I think confidence is another key part to have them in those programs. But there was a word that you mentioned, or a phrase that you were talking about, which was the idea that things are constantly moving. We know that, and we know that higher ed, while continuing CE may be moving faster. The traditional higher ed structure doesn't typically, but we're living in a world of AI and all these rapid technological movements. So in that era of this AI disruption and those shifting job markets and people are constantly job hopping and things like that, how can CE lead that way in aligning the academic rigor with this new work? Maybe not so new, but I think a much faster workforce agility that's required.

Jo-Anne Clarke (08:56):

Yeah. There's an old phrase that you can do things really, you can do them quick, cheap, or good, and often you can only do two of those three. We are moving as fast as we can, but we have pretty rigorous quality assurance processes built into our governance, built to our design processes. And I think those are the things that employers can have come to trust in universities in higher education to say, these folks actually are really good at developing quality programs. So I think we bring that rigor to the process, but then we have to speed it up. So we can't take two years to develop a growing, we can't take a year, we can't even take six months these days. We have to develop programs and get them to market really quick because people need these skills really quickly. And AI is changing things rapidly for everybody.

(09:46):

The reality is we're learning too. So we're upskilling and reskilling our own workforce and our folks into how we deliver those programs and using some of those technologies to help us improve and become more efficient. But the other thing, I'm not sure this answers your question, Shauna, but I think what universities can bring to that process is there's a lot of YouTube videos and on-demand content things where people can learn. They're great for imparting information. I use them to learn how to fix something. They're great at demos. But where we're a little bit different, I think in here is putting some of those other competencies or contextual higher order thinking skills around that learning. So you're going to learn about technology, but you're also going to think about how am I using it to problem solve? How am I, you're going to develop some critical thinking, is this the right software for me?

(10:42):

Is this the right approach? What are the ethics of using ai? How do I use it responsibly? Have I thought about how this impacts my colleagues and my workforce? Am I bringing in thoughts from the union? So we will teach those skills, those technology skills that we'll also teach them in the context of higher order thinking skills, which is those are the skills that actually employers are looking for. When you look over and over into their research, they're looking for problem solving, analysis, creative thinking, critical thinking, and that's where universities, that's our bench strength. So we try to apply that wraparound and build it into, embed it into our microcredentials. So people are gaining that as well when they complete a micro-credential.

Shauna Cox (11:26):

Yeah, it's really this overall ecosystem, this holistic experience that they're having to get. I know right now everybody's minds are so focused on technology, but it's true when you're talking about all those other skills, that creative thinking, critical thinking, all those things that people just think are just fluff terms and they're, oh, whatever. You get those at say, a liberal arts education. Those are some key skills that the employers still very much need and might even say that they're lacking in recent graduates and things like that. But I want to go back to this idea that you had when you mentioned, when you were talking about micro-credentials, it's now stuck in my brain of like it's needed to do the microcredentials to get those upskilling and reskilling components, but it's also fun and it's kind of cool to do it on its side. So it's kind of like this balance of, it's fun, it's cool, it's also very needed. So I want to take that further and ask you, what will it take for higher ed to kind of position workforce readiness, not just as this output, but as that integrated part of the learner experience, that learner life cycle?

Jo-Anne Clarke (12:41):

Yeah, I, I really like this question because you've come full circle to the opening question when you're talking about how we're evolving. There's a persistent perception that universities don't really adequately prepare students for the workforce. And fair enough, that's important to listen to. But I would argue that the foundational value of a university education, especially for young learners, is really important. So again, back to those higher order skills, you can't develop critical thinking through a 20 hour course, a micro-credential. It's not appropriate. So when you say ecosystem, that's a really important piece of it. So I also think developmentally at different stages of people's lives, things are perhaps young people haven't had the workplace experience yet. So often we have employers say, I want employees who have this and teamwork and that. And the reality is they haven't had the experience to gain that. So actually taking some time in being in school, those liberal arts education degrees and others is important because it allows people to figure out who they are, figure out to become a critical thinking, problem solving person, and not just, it's not an output, it's a process of becoming.

(13:57):

So I think micro-credentials and the short upskilling, reskilling is also very, I mean, those long programs aren't appropriate for adult learners necessarily, or professional learners who they've got lots of experience. So we have to not think one size fits all, but think in that ecosystem, what do people need at this stage in their life? What do they need at earlier stages? And I would say universities here, up here in my university and others across the Canada, they're understanding that more and more. I think quite honestly, we've kind of been all of a sudden we're the popular group because we understand about employers and labor market needs and all of that.

Shauna Cox (14:37):

But

Jo-Anne Clarke (14:38):

This is, as you've mentioned many times, Shauna, this is not new. We're like that band that's been gigging across the country for years, and everybody's like, all of a sudden you hit it big. And how does it feel to be, well, we've been gigging for a long time, so it's not really new. We put in the time, and this is just what we do. What's shifting though is that universities and credit partners are recognizing, and universities are recognizing they have to reposition to really value that part more to say, you know what? We're not just your institution for this period of time. We understand we need to, and we're not isolated. We're not up here delivering content down there or information or knowledge that we have to get out and be in the community more and more to talk with employers about what they need. They need to upgrade and upskill their own staff faculty. They also need to continually change curriculum, which I know there's sometimes arguments that people aren't, but I do know a ton of fantastic faculty who are constantly upgrading their curriculum and finding relevance. So it's a little bit of a misperception sometimes that you're not doing that. They definitely are. Yeah. I think it's about all working together to figure out what's the right thing at the right time versus trying to figure out one answer if fits all.

Shauna Cox (16:04):

I love the idea, there's so many moving parts into what you just said about the curriculum, and you have the CE department, and this person's over here doing this and this. But the idea of coming together, collaborating, and I mean, honestly, I kind of see it as, especially with CE leading the way towards this, more moving the whole institution, it also depends on what institution you're at, but moving that whole institution towards just lifelong learning in general, serving the lifelong learner, because in my opinion, that is the modern learner. And so with all of these moving parts, one of my last questions for you is just going to be these moving parts, the collaboration, internal, external stakeholders, so many things to be juggling at the same time. Do you have any words of wisdom, advice that you'd have for people who are navigating that space and just trying to collaborate and work together? Or is there anything else that I may have missed that you actually want to speak about?

Jo-Anne Clarke (17:04):

Well, I would say, I know this sounds totally cliche, but approach the work with curiosity. It's fun to talk with employers. It's fun to talk with learners. It's fun to talk with instructors. So I try to be a facilitator, a connector of people and ideas rather than seeing it as something that I've got to solve on my own. It can feel kind of big and daunting, but if you bring some levity to the work, it's a complex world. There's lots change, but at the end of the day, we're all still people helping each other, and yet we can do this together. So again, if this feels sort of scary or daunting, reach out. I mean, I think that's one of the benefits of joining, taking a course too. You don't have to do this on your own. We're doing it together. So come and meet some other learners who are interested in the same things as you are, and you'll build a community and network of folks that you can call on. And so there's really no words of wisdom except just to say, and don't get too rigid. Be open to what people are telling you and to what's needed, and kind of enjoy the ride of that.

Shauna Cox (18:17):

Amazing. Well, Duran, those are all the higher ed related questions that I have for you. But before I let you go, I of course have to ask a restaurant recommendation based on where you are. So you are in Victoria, bc. If someone's coming to town, where do they need to go to eat?

Jo-Anne Clarke (18:31):

Oh, we have so many good restaurants with local food, really good. So you have to come for at least a week. That's my first step. Secondly, and come visit us here. If you're coming in the summer months, I would say you have to try red fish, blue fish. It's this fantastic old right on the harbor that they've turned into a restaurant and they serve the absolute best clam chowder, in my opinion, that you can get on the island. There's often very long lineups. You have to be prepared to wait, but the wait is worth it.

Shauna Cox (19:01):

Amazing. Again, Joanne, thank you so much for the conversation and for the recommendation. It was so great chatting with you.

Jo-Anne Clarke (19:07):

You too, Shauna. Hopefully come and visit anytime. Yes.