{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":36.79,"endTime":37.79,"body":"[Music]"},{"startTime":39.79,"endTime":41.08,"body":"Welcome to this episode of the NLN podcast"},{"startTime":39.79,"endTime":41.08,"body":"Nursing EDge Unscripted the Surface track"},{"startTime":41.08,"endTime":47.22,"body":"and thank you for joining us. This episode"},{"startTime":41.08,"endTime":47.22,"body":"is entitled, Exploring the Third Space: An"},{"startTime":47.22,"endTime":53.28,"body":"Invitation to Redefine the Boundaries of Innovation,"},{"startTime":47.22,"endTime":53.28,"body":"where we are going to explore the third space"},{"startTime":53.28,"endTime":59.09,"body":"an interesting concept that promotes a special"},{"startTime":53.28,"endTime":59.09,"body":"synergy that occurs when diverse minds and"},{"startTime":59.09,"endTime":65.95,"body":"voices come together to solve complex problems."},{"startTime":59.09,"endTime":65.95,"body":"While this concept is used in many industries"},{"startTime":65.95,"endTime":70.93,"body":"including that of the tech world, today we"},{"startTime":65.95,"endTime":70.93,"body":"will make some connections on how the third"},{"startTime":70.93,"endTime":76.85,"body":"space concept can apply to innovating the"},{"startTime":70.93,"endTime":76.85,"body":"complexities and thorny issues of health care,"},{"startTime":76.85,"endTime":82.84,"body":"nursing education, and clinical practice. To"},{"startTime":76.85,"endTime":82.84,"body":"help us today we have a very special guest."},{"startTime":82.84,"endTime":90.19,"body":"Dr. Matthew Byrne has worked as a nurse informaticist"},{"startTime":82.84,"endTime":90.19,"body":"and nurse educator in a variety of settings"},{"startTime":90.19,"endTime":96.15,"body":"from clinical informatics to academia and the"},{"startTime":90.19,"endTime":96.15,"body":"health care industry. He is currently the director"},{"startTime":96.15,"endTime":102.65,"body":"of nursing technology resources for the Mayo"},{"startTime":96.15,"endTime":102.65,"body":"Clinic and teaches about informatics and educational"},{"startTime":102.65,"endTime":109.69,"body":"technology courses. He is passionate about"},{"startTime":102.65,"endTime":109.69,"body":"ensuring that technology is ideally suited"},{"startTime":109.69,"endTime":116.63,"body":"to serving the knowledge needs of nurses."},{"startTime":109.69,"endTime":116.63,"body":"Welcome Matt, thank you for joining us and"},{"startTime":116.63,"endTime":122.06,"body":"I'd like to start by having you tell us a"},{"startTime":116.63,"endTime":122.06,"body":"little bit about your role at the Mayo Clinic"},{"startTime":122.06,"endTime":127.84,"body":"because I think your role will help set a"},{"startTime":122.06,"endTime":127.84,"body":"foundation from which we can sort of expand"},{"startTime":127.84,"endTime":133.25,"body":"and talk about this kind of cool concept that"},{"startTime":127.84,"endTime":133.25,"body":"we want to explore together. Yeah, great."},{"startTime":133.25,"endTime":138.47,"body":"Well I'm very honored to be here. I've just"},{"startTime":133.25,"endTime":138.47,"body":"had a wonderful experience with NLN and a"},{"startTime":138.47,"endTime":142.49,"body":"great time getting to know and talking with"},{"startTime":138.47,"endTime":142.49,"body":"both of you so it's a huge honor to be here."},{"startTime":142.49,"endTime":146.65,"body":"So I'm the director of nursing technology"},{"startTime":142.49,"endTime":146.65,"body":"resources at the Mayo Clinic, which is a job"},{"startTime":146.65,"endTime":153.2,"body":"I recently took on and it really a long title"},{"startTime":146.65,"endTime":153.2,"body":"for basically serving the information needs"},{"startTime":153.2,"endTime":158.94,"body":"of nurses as they go about their day-to-day"},{"startTime":153.2,"endTime":158.94,"body":"work. I helped to make sure that they have"},{"startTime":158.94,"endTime":163.83,"body":"the resources they need to provide care, to"},{"startTime":158.94,"endTime":163.83,"body":"make sure their schedules are right, to keep"},{"startTime":163.83,"endTime":169.59,"body":"up to date on different news and information"},{"startTime":163.83,"endTime":169.59,"body":"needs they have. I serve across the enterprise"},{"startTime":169.59,"endTime":176.61,"body":"so from the London office to Sparta, Wisconsin,"},{"startTime":169.59,"endTime":176.61,"body":"really trying to meet the information"},{"startTime":176.61,"endTime":180.209,"body":"need of all the nurses at Mayo Clinic."},{"startTime":176.61,"endTime":180.209,"body":"I really love it because it brings together"},{"startTime":180.209,"endTime":186.65,"body":"my passions which are education and technology"},{"startTime":180.209,"endTime":186.65,"body":"and clinical practice. It's just been a"},{"startTime":186.65,"endTime":192.489,"body":"really fun opportunity for me to explore"},{"startTime":186.65,"endTime":192.489,"body":"that and to really serve an institution that"},{"startTime":192.489,"endTime":196.989,"body":"that I kind of grew up with. I started my career"},{"startTime":192.489,"endTime":196.989,"body":"there so I'm returning back to to the"},{"startTime":196.989,"endTime":204.3,"body":"to the place that I was a baby nurse as I"},{"startTime":196.989,"endTime":204.3,"body":"say, back in the day. That's awesome Matt. Well"},{"startTime":204.3,"endTime":211.48,"body":"I think your role, that's interesting"},{"startTime":204.3,"endTime":211.48,"body":"and I think a previous conversation"},{"startTime":211.48,"endTime":218.14,"body":"we talked about sometimes how hard it"},{"startTime":211.48,"endTime":218.14,"body":"is to marry so many different specialty areas"},{"startTime":218.14,"endTime":224.11,"body":"and to find that all these specialty areas"},{"startTime":218.14,"endTime":224.11,"body":"and all this expertise in one person and you"},{"startTime":224.11,"endTime":230.14,"body":"have that. I think that how you serve your role is very important"},{"startTime":230.14,"endTime":235.901,"body":"because they're so much of the information"},{"startTime":230.14,"endTime":235.901,"body":"and the technology that nurses touch. It all"},{"startTime":235.901,"endTime":240.14,"body":"comes down to the interface of patient care"},{"startTime":235.901,"endTime":240.14,"body":"and I think that's a really important role"},{"startTime":240.14,"endTime":248.09,"body":"to have somebody as diversely and experienced as"},{"startTime":240.14,"endTime":248.09,"body":"you are in so many different areas and"},{"startTime":248.09,"endTime":252.04,"body":"they're putting them together. Well it's very"},{"startTime":248.09,"endTime":252.04,"body":"nice of you to say. I think that's more a consequence"},{"startTime":252.04,"endTime":258.449,"body":"of intellectual restless then intentional"},{"startTime":252.04,"endTime":258.449,"body":"building of expertise, but it's a very kind"},{"startTime":258.449,"endTime":263.01,"body":"of you to say. I think it's a great"},{"startTime":258.449,"endTime":263.01,"body":"segue into the topic today because one of"},{"startTime":263.01,"endTime":270.05,"body":"the things that has really driven my passion"},{"startTime":263.01,"endTime":270.05,"body":"and interest in this topic which is around"},{"startTime":270.05,"endTime":276.24,"body":"third space, third space professionals and"},{"startTime":270.05,"endTime":276.24,"body":"and third space work, has been the fact that"},{"startTime":276.24,"endTime":281.45,"body":"I've had to navigate worlds that aren't always"},{"startTime":276.24,"endTime":281.45,"body":"compatible and sometimes actually maybe a"},{"startTime":281.45,"endTime":286.7,"body":"little bit hostile towards each other. It's"},{"startTime":281.45,"endTime":286.7,"body":"been a very interesting journey for me and"},{"startTime":286.7,"endTime":291.6,"body":"this is something I've been thinking about"},{"startTime":286.7,"endTime":291.6,"body":"for almost 20 years so I have lots of lots"},{"startTime":291.6,"endTime":296.22,"body":"of ideas and thoughts and experiences to expand"},{"startTime":291.6,"endTime":296.22,"body":"upon. I think one of those has been the"},{"startTime":296.22,"endTime":302.46,"body":"fact that as a registered nurse who likes"},{"startTime":296.22,"endTime":302.46,"body":"technology I've had to often operate in a"},{"startTime":302.46,"endTime":308.06,"body":"space that is very unfamiliar and"},{"startTime":302.46,"endTime":308.06,"body":"can be uncomfortable, where I'm sitting down"},{"startTime":308.06,"endTime":313.99,"body":"to talk to people on the I.T. side, the development"},{"startTime":308.06,"endTime":313.99,"body":"side, that I don't know, I mean I know a lot"},{"startTime":313.99,"endTime":318.83,"body":"more about it now, but we don't"},{"startTime":313.99,"endTime":318.83,"body":"speak the same language or we didn't."},{"startTime":318.83,"endTime":324.1,"body":"I've had to enter that third space, a space"},{"startTime":318.83,"endTime":324.1,"body":"in between their world and mine and kind of"},{"startTime":324.1,"endTime":330.259,"body":"navigate the culture and then the norms, the,"},{"startTime":324.1,"endTime":330.259,"body":"language, the etiquette and really figure"},{"startTime":330.259,"endTime":335.72,"body":"that out in order to achieve what I need to"},{"startTime":330.259,"endTime":335.72,"body":"achieve for my job or or for research or whatever"},{"startTime":335.72,"endTime":340.2,"body":"else. It's actually a great segue into this topic today. Actually I"},{"startTime":340.2,"endTime":346.77,"body":"would bounce a question back at you"},{"startTime":340.2,"endTime":346.77,"body":"guys because I do think to get into this mindset"},{"startTime":346.77,"endTime":353.889,"body":"I would ask the two of you, do you find yourself"},{"startTime":346.77,"endTime":353.889,"body":"navigating different worlds because I know"},{"startTime":353.889,"endTime":357.669,"body":"both of you do a lot of different things so"},{"startTime":353.889,"endTime":357.669,"body":"I guess I would throw that at you first and"},{"startTime":357.669,"endTime":363.27,"body":"then we'll rabbit hole from there. That's"},{"startTime":357.669,"endTime":363.27,"body":"fantastic Matt. It's funny because I was just"},{"startTime":363.27,"endTime":370.02,"body":"talking to Rachel about that because at the"},{"startTime":363.27,"endTime":370.02,"body":"NLN...I came from, you start at the"},{"startTime":370.02,"endTime":374.49,"body":"bedside you know practicing nurse you might"},{"startTime":370.02,"endTime":374.49,"body":"start doing some education because I never"},{"startTime":374.49,"endTime":380.33,"body":"went up an administrative track. I always from the"},{"startTime":374.49,"endTime":380.33,"body":"very get go went education so you start precepting."},{"startTime":380.33,"endTime":386.1,"body":"Then I went into a new grad residency program,"},{"startTime":380.33,"endTime":386.1,"body":"more teaching and then went into academics."},{"startTime":386.1,"endTime":392.169,"body":"And then just hardcore teaching - an immersion"},{"startTime":386.1,"endTime":392.169,"body":"in the academic setting and that took all"},{"startTime":392.169,"endTime":398.83,"body":"the full 12 years I was in academics to orient"},{"startTime":392.169,"endTime":398.83,"body":"myself. That was a 12-year orientation and"},{"startTime":398.83,"endTime":405.759,"body":"then just when you get kind of comfy I moved"},{"startTime":398.83,"endTime":405.759,"body":"to the NLN full time."},{"startTime":405.759,"endTime":411.319,"body":"The work at the NLN is this wonderful ability"},{"startTime":411.319,"endTime":418.789,"body":"to take my nursing knowledge, my nursing"},{"startTime":411.319,"endTime":418.789,"body":"language, my teaching language, and my love"},{"startTime":418.789,"endTime":424.55,"body":"of creativity and Innovation and marry that"},{"startTime":418.789,"endTime":424.55,"body":"into my role but the interesting thing is"},{"startTime":424.55,"endTime":432.509,"body":"that with the NLN we partner with Laerdal"},{"startTime":424.55,"endTime":432.509,"body":"Medical and Laerdal is really very different,"},{"startTime":432.509,"endTime":439.31,"body":"very different space, very different organization."},{"startTime":432.509,"endTime":439.31,"body":"It's much more corporate. It's much more business-"},{"startTime":439.31,"endTime":445.43,"body":"oriented. Their mission is to save lives, which"},{"startTime":439.31,"endTime":445.43,"body":"aligns. That's kind of probably our shared"},{"startTime":445.43,"endTime":449.979,"body":"space, right, I guess when you have a third"},{"startTime":445.43,"endTime":449.979,"body":"space you might have some a little bit of"},{"startTime":449.979,"endTime":456.919,"body":"a black hole of like where do we line up? But"},{"startTime":449.979,"endTime":456.919,"body":"there are some shared overlapping areas so"},{"startTime":456.919,"endTime":463.88,"body":"I'm often working with a team of people"},{"startTime":456.919,"endTime":463.88,"body":"that aren't nurses but they are gamers or"},{"startTime":463.88,"endTime":473.68,"body":"they are computer programmers and so we have"},{"startTime":463.88,"endTime":473.68,"body":"to we find ourselves often in this partnership"},{"startTime":473.68,"endTime":479.009,"body":"and in it when we're innovating and creating"},{"startTime":473.68,"endTime":479.009,"body":"something together, which is exciting but it"},{"startTime":479.009,"endTime":484.729,"body":"can be challenging because absolutely you"},{"startTime":479.009,"endTime":484.729,"body":"need all the stakeholders at the table all"},{"startTime":484.729,"endTime":490.849,"body":"the time because of the different languages"},{"startTime":484.729,"endTime":490.849,"body":"and that even might be literal languages because"},{"startTime":490.849,"endTime":496.3,"body":"it's also an international company so it's"},{"startTime":490.849,"endTime":496.3,"body":"pretty fascinating. Does that answer"},{"startTime":496.3,"endTime":501.539,"body":"your question with regard to a a third space?"},{"startTime":496.3,"endTime":501.539,"body":"Absolutely and I know Rachel you've"},{"startTime":501.539,"endTime":505.36,"body":"moved into an administrative role, I think."},{"startTime":501.539,"endTime":505.36,"body":"You're probably experiencing the culture"},{"startTime":505.36,"endTime":511.65,"body":"shock of that too and the different hats you"},{"startTime":505.36,"endTime":511.65,"body":"have to wear from being a nurse to a nurse"},{"startTime":511.65,"endTime":521.55,"body":"educator to an academic administrator. There's"},{"startTime":511.65,"endTime":521.55,"body":"probably a wide gulf. Yeah, you know and I"},{"startTime":521.55,"endTime":526.89,"body":"think a lot of folks can relate to this"},{"startTime":521.55,"endTime":526.89,"body":"regardless whether they're in a role transition"},{"startTime":526.89,"endTime":533.32,"body":"or organizational restructure. As things change,"},{"startTime":526.89,"endTime":533.32,"body":"you recognize that different departments or"},{"startTime":533.32,"endTime":539.019,"body":"different buckets or teams have different"},{"startTime":533.32,"endTime":539.019,"body":"priorities or a different lens through which"},{"startTime":539.019,"endTime":544.72,"body":"they see and carry out the mission and vision"},{"startTime":539.019,"endTime":544.72,"body":"of the larger organization that they're in."},{"startTime":544.72,"endTime":550.21,"body":"When you come together in that shared"},{"startTime":544.72,"endTime":550.21,"body":"space recognizing we are all working towards"},{"startTime":550.21,"endTime":554.269,"body":"the shared mission or vision, but we come with"},{"startTime":550.21,"endTime":554.269,"body":"a different lens, we come with a different"},{"startTime":554.269,"endTime":558.93,"body":"set of priorities. We come with a different"},{"startTime":554.269,"endTime":558.93,"body":"set of resources and tasks even though some"},{"startTime":558.93,"endTime":564.14,"body":"resources are shared amongst and across teams."},{"startTime":558.93,"endTime":564.14,"body":"Sometimes it's not and at that intersection"},{"startTime":564.14,"endTime":571.13,"body":"of teams or departments or specialties or"},{"startTime":564.14,"endTime":571.13,"body":"disciplines, wherever you are, I think we all"},{"startTime":571.13,"endTime":575.58,"body":"face that, right? We may have a shared mission"},{"startTime":571.13,"endTime":575.58,"body":"or vision, but there's different lenses to"},{"startTime":575.58,"endTime":583.339,"body":"which we see it and approach it. Different"},{"startTime":575.58,"endTime":583.339,"body":"priorities and different"},{"startTime":583.339,"endTime":589.0,"body":"and shared ways that we can occupy that space"},{"startTime":583.339,"endTime":589.0,"body":"together.  I couldn't have like"},{"startTime":589.0,"endTime":592.31,"body":"prepped this better because I think you both"},{"startTime":589.0,"endTime":592.31,"body":"get on two really, really important things."},{"startTime":592.31,"endTime":596.3,"body":"The first thing I think Michelle you"},{"startTime":592.31,"endTime":596.3,"body":"talked about shared vision"},{"startTime":596.3,"endTime":601.06,"body":"and I think you did as well Rachel. This idea"},{"startTime":596.3,"endTime":601.06,"body":"that at the center of the sort of"},{"startTime":601.06,"endTime":606.959,"body":"Venn diagram of knowledge and experience and"},{"startTime":601.06,"endTime":606.959,"body":"role is this notion of we all want to achieve"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":606.959,"endTime":613.63,"body":"saves lives, educate students,"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":606.959,"endTime":613.63,"body":"give nurses the resources they need, whatever."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":613.63,"endTime":620.019,"body":"That's often the thing people are rallying"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":613.63,"endTime":620.019,"body":"around in this third space, which is really"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":620.019,"endTime":627.79,"body":"a theoretical space or an intellectual space"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":620.019,"endTime":627.79,"body":"where people gather either physically or virtually"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":627.79,"endTime":634.79,"body":"to really talk about thorny problems or"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":627.79,"endTime":634.79,"body":"complex issues. I think the difference"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":634.79,"endTime":640.519,"body":"is you guys are talking about, hey we're gathering"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":634.79,"endTime":640.519,"body":"around a problem, you know an academic administrative"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":640.519,"endTime":647.51,"body":"problem. We have enrollment issues or whatever,"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":640.519,"endTime":647.51,"body":"but you're expected to stay in your lane because"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":647.51,"endTime":651.95,"body":"people trust that you're going to do your"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":647.51,"endTime":651.95,"body":"job. People trust you're going to advocate"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":651.95,"endTime":658.48,"body":"from the perspective that you have have to"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":651.95,"endTime":658.48,"body":"safeguard. The difference in third space is"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":658.48,"endTime":666.41,"body":"you let that all go and so there becomes sort"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":658.48,"endTime":666.41,"body":"of this diffuse set of boundaries. Boundaries"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":666.41,"endTime":673.32,"body":"become blurry and you operate instead in an"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":666.41,"endTime":673.32,"body":"open space what I call a co-creative confluence"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":673.32,"endTime":678.93,"body":"where you come together to often create something"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":673.32,"endTime":678.93,"body":"new that maybe didn't exist before. I know"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":678.93,"endTime":683.769,"body":"synergy is like this dirty word, but that's"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":678.93,"endTime":683.769,"body":"truly the goal is that you as an individual"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":683.769,"endTime":688.24,"body":"staying in your swim lane probably would not"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":683.769,"endTime":688.24,"body":"have come up with this magical thing in this"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":688.24,"endTime":693.44,"body":"third space, but it's that letting go of self,"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":688.24,"endTime":693.44,"body":"letting go of expectation, letting go of your"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":693.44,"endTime":699.92,"body":"specific role that differentiates"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":693.44,"endTime":699.92,"body":"a third space from like a teamwork space because"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":699.92,"endTime":705.0,"body":"in a teamwork environment you got to do your"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":699.92,"endTime":705.0,"body":"nurse stuff, the physician and the respiratory"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":705.0,"endTime":708.25,"body":"therapist they need you to do your nurse stuff,"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":705.0,"endTime":708.25,"body":"they're trusting that you're going to do your"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":708.25,"endTime":712.78,"body":"nurse stuff. In the third space, you just let"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":708.25,"endTime":712.78,"body":"that go. You're just people with a vast array"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":712.78,"endTime":717.63,"body":"of experiences and knowledge and whatever"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":712.78,"endTime":717.63,"body":"else sitting in a room tackling a thorny problem"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":717.63,"endTime":724.7,"body":"and dreaming up new solutions to it, innovative"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":717.63,"endTime":724.7,"body":"ways to approach it. So Matt as you're explaining"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":724.7,"endTime":728.279,"body":"this I'm getting this vision in my mind. You"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":724.7,"endTime":728.279,"body":"can tell me if I am totally off or not I'm"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":728.279,"endTime":733.269,"body":"getting this vision of us moving from like"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":728.279,"endTime":733.269,"body":"in a highway with guard rails and our lanes"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":733.269,"endTime":738.93,"body":"to like we're on a dirt road now and you know"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":733.269,"endTime":738.93,"body":"we're kind of or maybe a really wide dirt"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":738.93,"endTime":744.079,"body":"maybe field and we're kind of the dirt kind"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":738.93,"endTime":744.079,"body":"of flies up and we don't have the boundaries"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":744.079,"endTime":751.139,"body":"or the guardrails that we would have on... I would say you're full Back to"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":751.139,"endTime":754.99,"body":"the Future - like where we're going you don't"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":751.139,"endTime":754.99,"body":"even need roads. You're not even on roads anymore."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":754.99,"endTime":759.37,"body":"Okay. You just get in the DeLorean and you're"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":754.99,"endTime":759.37,"body":"up in the air flying around. So it's even the"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":759.37,"endTime":764.13,"body":"idea that we're not even on roads anymore. You're doing something maybe way outside"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":764.13,"endTime":771.889,"body":"of your experience and understanding and there's"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":764.13,"endTime":771.889,"body":"an okayness with that. Hey, the nurse"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":771.889,"endTime":775.93,"body":"is going to talk about technology stuff. They"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":771.889,"endTime":775.93,"body":"may not have all the right words but they"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":775.93,"endTime":780.649,"body":"have enough knowledge and experience and we"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":775.93,"endTime":780.649,"body":"have mutual respect and safety in that"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":780.649,"endTime":785.99,"body":"space to just dream stuff up and build on"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":780.649,"endTime":785.99,"body":"each other's ideas and co-create in a way"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":785.99,"endTime":791.73,"body":"that we probably couldn't and shouldn't in"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":785.99,"endTime":791.73,"body":"a true team environment where I need you to"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":791.73,"endTime":797.44,"body":"do your job to protect the patient or to make"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":791.73,"endTime":797.44,"body":"sure that this course is delivered the way"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":797.44,"endTime":801.75,"body":"that it needs to be delivered. So it's like"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":797.44,"endTime":801.75,"body":"you're totally, you don't even need roads in"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":801.75,"endTime":808.61,"body":"a third space. You just move completely outside"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":801.75,"endTime":808.61,"body":"of kind of that normal navigation."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":808.61,"endTime":816.11,"body":"So listening to you describe, Matt, the third"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":808.61,"endTime":816.11,"body":"space, I had a very different vision than Rachel,"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":816.11,"endTime":820.93,"body":"which is pretty common for Rachel and I to"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":816.11,"endTime":820.93,"body":"have these these very different perspectives."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":820.93,"endTime":826.26,"body":"I'm not even sure if my vision is going"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":820.93,"endTime":826.26,"body":"to make the final editing cut because"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":826.26,"endTime":835.089,"body":"it's a little out there. My question is"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":826.26,"endTime":835.089,"body":"how do you get into the third space because"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":835.089,"endTime":840.48,"body":"I always think we have all these identities"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":835.089,"endTime":840.48,"body":"and we wear them like shirts sometimes even"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":840.48,"endTime":845.24,"body":"like armor. I've got my"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":840.48,"endTime":845.24,"body":"nursing shirt and I've got my teaching shirt"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":845.24,"endTime":851.949,"body":"and I've got my colleague shirt and I've got"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":845.24,"endTime":851.949,"body":"my creativity shirt. I've got all these shirts,"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":851.949,"endTime":858.699,"body":"my scholarship shirt. How do I now enter into"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":851.949,"endTime":858.699,"body":"this third space and take off all these shirts?"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":858.699,"endTime":863.699,"body":"I'm imagining we're entering into this"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":858.699,"endTime":863.699,"body":"space like naked to do this work, I mean maybe"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":863.699,"endTime":870.63,"body":"not literally, but figuratively. I'm wondering"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":863.699,"endTime":870.63,"body":"how does one get themselves to derobe and"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":870.63,"endTime":877.12,"body":"to de-identify where you're not going in"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":870.63,"endTime":877.12,"body":"with all of this pre-programmed knowledge"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":877.12,"endTime":883.17,"body":"and experience? How do you really clear yourself"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":877.12,"endTime":883.17,"body":"for this space? Do you have to use sage, do you"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":883.17,"endTime":887.82,"body":"have to meditate, what do you have to do? I"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":883.17,"endTime":887.82,"body":"mean probably all of those are probably just"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":887.82,"endTime":894.329,"body":"fine. So to some extent I think it's actually"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":887.82,"endTime":894.329,"body":"the opposite. I don't think you want to enter"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":894.329,"endTime":900.31,"body":"disrobed. I think you want to walk in with"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":894.329,"endTime":900.31,"body":"all the knowledge and experience you have."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":900.31,"endTime":904.74,"body":"But I think there's different habits of mind"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":900.31,"endTime":904.74,"body":"that you have to bring to this kind of space,"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":904.74,"endTime":911.899,"body":"which is part of why I wanted the two of you"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":904.74,"endTime":911.899,"body":"to talk about  your selves as third"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":911.899,"endTime":917.0,"body":"space professionals, which in the last year"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":911.899,"endTime":917.0,"body":"that was a whole thread of research in this"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":917.0,"endTime":920.94,"body":"area that I found that was totally different"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":917.0,"endTime":920.94,"body":"from what I looked at before. I've been reading"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":920.94,"endTime":926.99,"body":"very exclusively about third space participatory"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":920.94,"endTime":926.99,"body":"design, which is where we bring two people"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":926.99,"endTime":932.11,"body":"together in a room and we do a thing. I found"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":926.99,"endTime":932.11,"body":"a whole thread of research about third space"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":932.11,"endTime":936.62,"body":"professionals which I think the two of you"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":932.11,"endTime":936.62,"body":"are great examples of that where you kind"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":936.62,"endTime":941.79,"body":"of straddle and negotiate and navigate and"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":936.62,"endTime":941.79,"body":"are you're both very successful can successfully"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":941.79,"endTime":948.37,"body":"do things that exist in this third space between"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":941.79,"endTime":948.37,"body":"your academic and professional and whatever"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":948.37,"endTime":954.41,"body":"hats. I think when you walk into a third"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":948.37,"endTime":954.41,"body":"space situation, I think a lot of times it's"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":954.41,"endTime":958.25,"body":"accidental and serendipitous and what"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":954.41,"endTime":958.25,"body":"I'm really interested in is how we do that"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":958.25,"endTime":962.87,"body":"intentionally because I think we need it now"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":958.25,"endTime":962.87,"body":"more than ever to be very honest with you."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":962.87,"endTime":968.05,"body":"I think you want to walk in letting go"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":962.87,"endTime":968.05,"body":"of a little bit of self. I think it can be"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":968.05,"endTime":974.35,"body":"very easy to feel like, oh these are austere"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":968.05,"endTime":974.35,"body":"colleagues or you know people that I wouldn't"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":974.35,"endTime":980.07,"body":"maybe normally talk to or do we have a lot"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":974.35,"endTime":980.07,"body":"in common because they do"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":980.07,"endTime":986.139,"body":"unit testing or  they do instructional"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":980.07,"endTime":986.139,"body":"design work and I would usually only interface"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":986.139,"endTime":990.85,"body":"them with them in a very specific context."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":986.139,"endTime":990.85,"body":"I think that letting go of self and self-awareness"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":990.85,"endTime":996.13,"body":"to some extent, which is kind of a lost art."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":990.85,"endTime":996.13,"body":"Not everybody's good at that. I think leaving"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":996.13,"endTime":1003.01,"body":"behind your boundaries in terms of what we're"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":996.13,"endTime":1003.01,"body":"typically used to which is I got to stay in"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1003.01,"endTime":1008.329,"body":"my swim lane for safety reasons like I got"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1003.01,"endTime":1008.329,"body":"to do my nursing stuff because everybody's"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1008.329,"endTime":1011.79,"body":"expecting me to do my nursing stuff. They're"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1008.329,"endTime":1011.79,"body":"trusting that I'm going to take care of that"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1011.79,"endTime":1015.72,"body":"side of the patient care situation so you"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1011.79,"endTime":1015.72,"body":"actually have to let go of that boundary a"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1015.72,"endTime":1020.7,"body":"little bit and be open to different ideas"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1015.72,"endTime":1020.7,"body":"and different perspectives and maybe even"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1020.7,"endTime":1024.51,"body":"stretching yourself intellectually to talk"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1020.7,"endTime":1024.51,"body":"about something that you maybe normally would"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1024.51,"endTime":1028.059,"body":"kind of stay out of because it's not within"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1024.51,"endTime":1028.059,"body":"your scope or role. And then I think the last"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1028.059,"endTime":1032.459,"body":"piece is letting go of some prior assumptions."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1028.059,"endTime":1032.459,"body":"We all have assumptions about the people"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1032.459,"endTime":1037.11,"body":"we work with. There's lots of jokes about lawyers"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1032.459,"endTime":1037.11,"body":"and accountants and whatever else. We have"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1037.11,"endTime":1041.25,"body":"the same jokes about physicians and I'm sure"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1037.11,"endTime":1041.25,"body":"they tell the same jokes about nurses but"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1041.25,"endTime":1044.9,"body":"letting go of those those assumptions about"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1041.25,"endTime":1044.9,"body":"the people that you're going to sit around"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1044.9,"endTime":1050.9,"body":"the table with is super critical to entering"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1044.9,"endTime":1050.9,"body":"that that third space and those three things"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1050.9,"endTime":1055.61,"body":"that I'm talking about actually come from"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1050.9,"endTime":1055.61,"body":"a fascinating article I found a month ago"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1055.61,"endTime":1060.62,"body":"that was written by two doctoral nursing students"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1055.61,"endTime":1060.62,"body":"who got into this beautiful collaboration"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1060.62,"endTime":1067.1,"body":"with each other and tried to figure out how"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1060.62,"endTime":1067.1,"body":"they can move regularly into this what they"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1067.1,"endTime":1072.51,"body":"called transformative collaboration space."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1067.1,"endTime":1072.51,"body":"I think what's fun about this third space"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1072.51,"endTime":1076.65,"body":"work is that there's a lot of different language"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1072.51,"endTime":1076.65,"body":"around it. What they were describing"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1076.65,"endTime":1082.61,"body":"is exactly what I'm interested in terms of"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1076.65,"endTime":1082.61,"body":"understanding and creating third space experiences,"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1082.61,"endTime":1087.669,"body":"but they use totally different language but"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1082.61,"endTime":1087.669,"body":"are giving skills that you need to answer"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1087.669,"endTime":1092.96,"body":"your question, Michelle, that the skills that"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1087.669,"endTime":1092.96,"body":"you need to get into that third space mode."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1092.96,"endTime":1097.58,"body":"The other thing is just really making sure"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1092.96,"endTime":1097.58,"body":"that you have some of the basics that go into"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1097.58,"endTime":1104.33,"body":"any collaborative working environment."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1097.58,"endTime":1104.33,"body":"The sort of not having people checking"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1104.33,"endTime":1114.059,"body":"their phones, the mutual respect, the sort of"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1104.33,"endTime":1114.059,"body":"recognition that people are going to say things"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1114.059,"endTime":1119.85,"body":"that you know may sound dumb. We talk a"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1114.059,"endTime":1119.85,"body":"lot about being vulnerable and creating safe"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1119.85,"endTime":1126.15,"body":"spaces. Well that's not easy. It can be very"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1119.85,"endTime":1126.15,"body":"difficult to do that. Those are really cool"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1126.15,"endTime":1131.11,"body":"bumper stickers, but actually creating environments"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1126.15,"endTime":1131.11,"body":"for that is very, very difficult especially"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1131.11,"endTime":1135.7,"body":"in virtual environments. I think face-to-face"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1131.11,"endTime":1135.7,"body":"we're a little more attuned to body language"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1135.7,"endTime":1140.03,"body":"and people's reactions, but you do that in"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1135.7,"endTime":1140.03,"body":"a virtual space people turn off their cameras,"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1140.03,"endTime":1145.63,"body":"people mute, you don't see people's full body"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1140.03,"endTime":1145.63,"body":"language, and as nurses were very attuned to"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1145.63,"endTime":1150.809,"body":"that but not everybody is and they need those"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1145.63,"endTime":1150.809,"body":"cues. I think some of it is yes,"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1150.809,"endTime":1155.47,"body":"doing those three things, the sort of self-awareness,"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1150.809,"endTime":1155.47,"body":"self-checking,  drawing down those"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1155.47,"endTime":1159.57,"body":"boundaries, opening them up and letting go"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1155.47,"endTime":1159.57,"body":"with some of those prior assumptions. But just"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1159.57,"endTime":1166.21,"body":"doing some of the good basic team stuff so"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1159.57,"endTime":1166.21,"body":"that you can move into this almost because"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1166.21,"endTime":1170.679,"body":"my experiences here have been almost magical"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1166.21,"endTime":1170.679,"body":"and that's part of why I've been so interested"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1170.679,"endTime":1177.19,"body":"in this for 20 years is that things happen"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1170.679,"endTime":1177.19,"body":"and your brain tingles in a way that it doesn't"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1177.19,"endTime":1182.39,"body":"in other types of meetings. There is a very"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1177.19,"endTime":1182.39,"body":"mystical kind of aspect to this scientist"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1182.39,"endTime":1186.71,"body":"and tech guy, but there is an almost mystical"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1182.39,"endTime":1186.71,"body":"feeling when you're in those spaces and the"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1186.71,"endTime":1192.08,"body":"times I've been there all of these things"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1186.71,"endTime":1192.08,"body":"that I read about and I see describe have"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1192.08,"endTime":1196.84,"body":"started to happen. That's what makes"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1192.08,"endTime":1196.84,"body":"it kind of fascinating and cool but also really"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1196.84,"endTime":1202.09,"body":"necessary in these times. I really appreciate"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1196.84,"endTime":1202.09,"body":"you speaking on this idea of psychological"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1202.09,"endTime":1206.77,"body":"safety in these spaces. Michelle and I - you're"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1202.09,"endTime":1206.77,"body":"speaking to our one of our big passions. Michelle"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1206.77,"endTime":1210.98,"body":"and I spent a lot of time offline talking"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1206.77,"endTime":1210.98,"body":"about psychological safety: how do we build"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1210.98,"endTime":1215.94,"body":"it, cultivate it, protect it, how do we address"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1210.98,"endTime":1215.94,"body":"it when it's at risk. I could"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1215.94,"endTime":1221.08,"body":"imagine that that is a huge and I agree with"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1215.94,"endTime":1221.08,"body":"you it has to be intentional, deliberate"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1221.08,"endTime":1228.929,"body":"authentic, genuine and when I hear you talking"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1221.08,"endTime":1228.929,"body":"about these attributes and what we need"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1228.929,"endTime":1233.49,"body":"to think about and bringing ourselves into"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1228.929,"endTime":1233.49,"body":"the third space, I also think perhaps and you"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1233.49,"endTime":1239.58,"body":"can help shape my thinking on this... how it lands on you. I also think listening"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1239.58,"endTime":1247.77,"body":"to understand might be a huge thing being"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1239.58,"endTime":1247.77,"body":"able to hold the idea of being both student"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1247.77,"endTime":1252.559,"body":"and expert at the same time, right. That's not"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1247.77,"endTime":1252.559,"body":"mutually exclusive. I'm here to offer expertise"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1252.559,"endTime":1258.039,"body":"but also be a student to learn at the same"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1252.559,"endTime":1258.039,"body":"time from those who are offering their expertise"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1258.039,"endTime":1262.81,"body":"and then what Michelle and I talk about a"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1258.039,"endTime":1262.81,"body":"lot is a nod and comes from the Center for"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1262.81,"endTime":1267.87,"body":"Medical Simulation up in Boston is this basic"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1262.81,"endTime":1267.87,"body":"assumption, that we believe those that we work"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1267.87,"endTime":1274.08,"body":"with are intelligent capable wanting to do"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1267.87,"endTime":1274.08,"body":"their best and wanting to improve. We often"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1274.08,"endTime":1278.669,"body":"talk about that - of holding it of each other"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1274.08,"endTime":1278.669,"body":"but also holding it of ourselves. I think"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1278.669,"endTime":1282.8,"body":"oftentimes when we step into this third space"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1278.669,"endTime":1282.8,"body":"where we're vulnerable and uncomfortable and"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1282.8,"endTime":1287.22,"body":"stretching beyond the edge of our expertise"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1282.8,"endTime":1287.22,"body":"it's really important that we hold that of"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1287.22,"endTime":1291.7,"body":"ourselves that I'm intelligent, capable, wanting"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1287.22,"endTime":1291.7,"body":"to do my best, wanting to improve. I think"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1291.7,"endTime":1295.57,"body":"that might help let go of because I think"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1291.7,"endTime":1295.57,"body":"there's a perhaps an ego part of this where"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1295.57,"endTime":1302.2,"body":"we have to let go because when we're with"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1295.57,"endTime":1302.2,"body":"our colleagues and sometimes there's a feeling"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1302.2,"endTime":1307.27,"body":"of wanting to prove that you should be there"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1302.2,"endTime":1307.27,"body":"at the table, that you have something to contribute"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1307.27,"endTime":1312.4,"body":"and letting that go I think are going"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1307.27,"endTime":1312.4,"body":"to be necessary ingredients to create this"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1312.4,"endTime":1321.39,"body":"as you say mystical space where transformational"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1312.4,"endTime":1321.39,"body":"thinking and outcomes can happen. Yeah. Absolutely."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1321.39,"endTime":1326.01,"body":"I think it also requires people to be able"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1321.39,"endTime":1326.01,"body":"to hold paradox. We've talked about this before"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1326.01,"endTime":1332.799,"body":"too Rachel. Our culture, our westernized"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1326.01,"endTime":1332.799,"body":"culture doesn't do that very well that both/"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1332.799,"endTime":1338.99,"body":"and that you can be both teacher and learner"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1332.799,"endTime":1338.99,"body":"at the same time, that you don't have to"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1338.99,"endTime":1344.419,"body":"pick one and you have to be the teacher so"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1338.99,"endTime":1344.419,"body":"you're the teacher right we can we can hold"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1344.419,"endTime":1350.48,"body":"seemingly opposite things in the same space"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1344.419,"endTime":1350.48,"body":"and create space to allow for that and"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1350.48,"endTime":1354.95,"body":"that's part of probably that boundary, letting"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1350.48,"endTime":1354.95,"body":"some of those boundaries go around what it"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1354.95,"endTime":1359.15,"body":"means to be a teacher, what it means to be"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1354.95,"endTime":1359.15,"body":"a learner, and what your role is in either"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1359.15,"endTime":1364.63,"body":"one of those that there can be this almost"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1359.15,"endTime":1364.63,"body":"third space within a person. You can be"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1364.63,"endTime":1370.95,"body":"both that overlapping of roles. I think"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1364.63,"endTime":1370.95,"body":"that's pretty interesting too and I think"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1370.95,"endTime":1375.21,"body":"you guys are both again kind of hitting on"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1370.95,"endTime":1375.21,"body":"something that I've discovered only recently"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1375.21,"endTime":1379.659,"body":"and again, I've been thinking about this for"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1375.21,"endTime":1379.659,"body":"20 years when I had a very mystical third"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1379.659,"endTime":1383.76,"body":"space experience very early in my career and"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1379.659,"endTime":1383.76,"body":"at various milestones have read something"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1383.76,"endTime":1389.95,"body":"or found it again, but I think the newest revelation"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1383.76,"endTime":1389.95,"body":"I've had and I think you're both validating"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1389.95,"endTime":1397.27,"body":"and articulating that and reinforcing it is"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1389.95,"endTime":1397.27,"body":"that my theory is that third spaces probably"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1397.27,"endTime":1403.51,"body":"cannot be really successful or created without"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1397.27,"endTime":1403.51,"body":"third space professionals because I think"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1403.51,"endTime":1410.96,"body":"third space professionals have had to be stealthful,"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1403.51,"endTime":1410.96,"body":"self-aware, have had to be in tune to the communities"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1410.96,"endTime":1417.36,"body":"in which they're entering and have that cultural"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1410.96,"endTime":1417.36,"body":"humility to say this is a corporate-y"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1417.36,"endTime":1423.159,"body":"Laerdal group. They're going to be speaking"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1417.36,"endTime":1423.159,"body":"about things in ways and using language that"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1423.159,"endTime":1430.95,"body":"I wouldn't use on a care unit or that I wouldn't"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1423.159,"endTime":1430.95,"body":"use in an NLN meeting and I need to be responsive"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1430.95,"endTime":1435.35,"body":"to that and aware of that and respectful of"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1430.95,"endTime":1435.35,"body":"that while still bringing what I bring to"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1435.35,"endTime":1442.0,"body":"the table. My new kind of theory of this"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1435.35,"endTime":1442.0,"body":"is that a third space really requires at least"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1442.0,"endTime":1448.23,"body":"a couple of third space professionals who"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1442.0,"endTime":1448.23,"body":"are used to to living in that odd, murky,"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1448.23,"endTime":1453.82,"body":"diffuse space that's kind of in between."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1453.82,"endTime":1458.419,"body":"That's fantastic and it's making me really..."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1453.82,"endTime":1458.419,"body":"it's sparking something in me about how do"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1458.419,"endTime":1465.91,"body":"you, how does that get identified in a person?"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1458.419,"endTime":1465.91,"body":"You've got these attributes that"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1465.91,"endTime":1472.61,"body":"you're comfortable with, an uncomfortable"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1465.91,"endTime":1472.61,"body":"situation that you're able to hold paradoxes"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1472.61,"endTime":1478.341,"body":"that you're able to navigate this and kind"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1472.61,"endTime":1478.341,"body":"of be self-aware. How is"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1478.341,"endTime":1485.049,"body":"that identified? How is that celebrated?"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1478.341,"endTime":1485.049,"body":"How did we bring awareness to that that's"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1485.049,"endTime":1490.08,"body":"a needed role? Like how do we help"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1485.049,"endTime":1490.08,"body":"them build those things? Just like we talked"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1490.08,"endTime":1498.15,"body":"about, how do we help create and develop leaders?"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1490.08,"endTime":1498.15,"body":"How do we help develop those with a third"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1498.15,"endTime":1502.88,"body":"space would you say mindset Matt? Would that"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1498.15,"endTime":1502.88,"body":"be the right term?  I think a mindset or"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1502.88,"endTime":1509.21,"body":"or mindset's probably the best word. How"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1502.88,"endTime":1509.21,"body":"do we build that and recognize it and celebrate"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1509.21,"endTime":1514.45,"body":"it? I don't think it's well celebrated. I think"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1509.21,"endTime":1514.45,"body":"it's becoming more commonplace somewhat by"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1514.45,"endTime":1520.01,"body":"accident as people live in much more of a"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1514.45,"endTime":1520.01,"body":"gig world where they teach and do clinical"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1520.01,"endTime":1528.94,"body":"practice or teach and do whatever they do"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1520.01,"endTime":1528.94,"body":"so I think there's been sort of a forced hybrid"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1528.94,"endTime":1532.74,"body":"professional situation not just in nursing"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1528.94,"endTime":1532.74,"body":"but I think nursing is very typical we have"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1532.74,"endTime":1538.559,"body":"people who teach part-time and do clinical"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1532.74,"endTime":1538.559,"body":"practice part-time and they just by happenstance"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1538.559,"endTime":1543.23,"body":"have to live between those worlds. Sometimes"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1538.559,"endTime":1543.23,"body":"they do that well, sometimes they don't."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1543.23,"endTime":1548.649,"body":"I've worked, I'm sure you guys have too, I've"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1543.23,"endTime":1548.649,"body":"worked with colleagues over the years who"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1548.649,"endTime":1554.13,"body":"bring some of the yucky clinical practice"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1548.649,"endTime":1554.13,"body":"stuff to academia or vice versa, which isn't"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1554.13,"endTime":1561.13,"body":"really in my mind the right way to approach"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1554.13,"endTime":1561.13,"body":"that. Is it celebrated? I think more now as"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1561.13,"endTime":1566.64,"body":"their sort of recognition that we really have"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1561.13,"endTime":1566.64,"body":"to have academia and clinical practice talking"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1566.64,"endTime":1573.04,"body":"to each other more and more. I think Covid"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1566.64,"endTime":1573.04,"body":"really forced that issue in a way that we"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1573.04,"endTime":1577.52,"body":"haven't seen before. We've always talked about"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1573.04,"endTime":1577.52,"body":"that as sort of that back and forth between"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1577.52,"endTime":1583.6,"body":"academia and practice from like a research"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1577.52,"endTime":1583.6,"body":"perspective, but I think the DNP movement has"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1583.6,"endTime":1588.46,"body":"helped that a lot. I think Covid has helped"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1583.6,"endTime":1588.46,"body":"that a lot to really open that dialogue up"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1588.46,"endTime":1593.48,"body":"so there's maybe a little more celebration"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1588.46,"endTime":1593.48,"body":"of that, but we haven't named this. This isn't"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1593.48,"endTime":1597.35,"body":"a word. We don't talk about third space professionals."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1593.48,"endTime":1597.35,"body":"We don't talk about hybrid professionals or"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1597.35,"endTime":1603.169,"body":"third spaces. I think when you don't name"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1597.35,"endTime":1603.169,"body":"something it's very difficult to"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1603.169,"endTime":1607.299,"body":"celebrate it, recognize it, and build it up"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1603.169,"endTime":1607.299,"body":"in people. Even though I think it's out there"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1607.299,"endTime":1612.74,"body":"and I and part of what I've been digging into"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1607.299,"endTime":1612.74,"body":"is that this language and this type of"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1612.74,"endTime":1619.45,"body":"mindset exists and has been discussed in many"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1612.74,"endTime":1619.45,"body":"different disciplines so it's a very heavy"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1619.45,"endTime":1626.679,"body":"in the social sciences. I reached out to a"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1619.45,"endTime":1626.679,"body":"scholar in Norway who does military psychology"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1626.679,"endTime":1633.69,"body":"who's talked about this phenomenon. I"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1626.679,"endTime":1633.69,"body":"talked with our mutual friend Sal Tagliareni"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1633.69,"endTime":1640.27,"body":"about this. He used the word normative incrementalism,"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1633.69,"endTime":1640.27,"body":"which is actually actually like a political"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1640.27,"endTime":1646.21,"body":"mindset that is sort of adjacent to this."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1640.27,"endTime":1646.21,"body":"I think the multi-disciplinarity of it"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1646.21,"endTime":1650.679,"body":"is challenging but also it's just something"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1646.21,"endTime":1650.679,"body":"new and we haven't really named it yet but"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1650.679,"endTime":1656.649,"body":"as we've moved into sort of a gig economy"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1650.679,"endTime":1656.649,"body":"and a situation where everybody has to do"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1656.649,"endTime":1661.59,"body":"something with tech. Probably 20 years ago it was like, oh, tech"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1661.59,"endTime":1667.36,"body":"and education. Well now like tech is education."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1661.59,"endTime":1667.36,"body":"That was even before Covid I'd"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1667.36,"endTime":1673.159,"body":"say that we were very tech dependent. Now we've"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1667.36,"endTime":1673.159,"body":"shown and have been a hundred percent tech"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1673.159,"endTime":1678.7,"body":"dependent because of Covid so we've all become"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1673.159,"endTime":1678.7,"body":"in some ways hybrid professionals who've had"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1678.7,"endTime":1683.679,"body":"to navigate the technology world, the clinical"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1678.7,"endTime":1683.679,"body":"practice world, and the academic world.  I"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1683.679,"endTime":1689.95,"body":"think naming it is a big part of it. Celebrating"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1683.679,"endTime":1689.95,"body":"it - I think we're getting there. It's"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1689.95,"endTime":1694.169,"body":"not just about being an adjunct. It's about"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1689.95,"endTime":1694.169,"body":"how you contribute and how you show up that"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1694.169,"endTime":1699.64,"body":"differentiates you as an adjunct faculty versus"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1694.169,"endTime":1699.64,"body":"a hybrid professional and then I think from"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1699.64,"endTime":1704.48,"body":"there that's where we can better be able to"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1699.64,"endTime":1704.48,"body":"build people up if desired. I don't think everybody"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1704.48,"endTime":1710.49,"body":"can be a hybrid professional. I think sometimes"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1704.48,"endTime":1710.49,"body":"it can be very disconcerting and challenging"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1710.49,"endTime":1716.29,"body":"and exhausting to try and navigate multiple"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1710.49,"endTime":1716.29,"body":"cultures and the cultural piece of this is"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1716.29,"endTime":1721.44,"body":"actually where third space and hybrid space"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1716.29,"endTime":1721.44,"body":"comes from. The original theorist talked about"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1721.44,"endTime":1726.6,"body":"those who might have immigrated from elsewhere"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1721.44,"endTime":1726.6,"body":"and have had to straddle their home culture"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1726.6,"endTime":1731.73,"body":"and the culture of the place that they've"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1726.6,"endTime":1731.73,"body":"moved to so ironically enough it's that cultural"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1731.73,"endTime":1736.69,"body":"piece that I think can can make hybrid space"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1731.73,"endTime":1736.69,"body":"work or third space work very, very challenging"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1736.69,"endTime":1740.919,"body":"and exhausting because you're constantly rethinking"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1736.69,"endTime":1740.919,"body":"your identity and figuring out"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1740.919,"endTime":1744.7,"body":"what the norms are."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1744.7,"endTime":1750.429,"body":"We want to be conscious of our time boundaries."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1744.7,"endTime":1750.429,"body":"This conversation could go on and it will."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1750.429,"endTime":1755.09,"body":"We will pick up with our conversation with"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1750.429,"endTime":1755.09,"body":"Matt discussing innovating in this third space"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1755.09,"endTime":1757.66,"body":"on the next episode."},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1757.66,"endTime":1764.63,"body":"Thank you for joining us on this episode of"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1757.66,"endTime":1764.63,"body":"NLN Nursing EDge Unscripted Surface. We hope"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1764.63,"endTime":1770.44,"body":"you join us next time. Until then, remember,"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1764.63,"endTime":1770.44,"body":"whether your water is calm or choppy, stay"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1770.44,"endTime":1773.91,"body":"connected, get vulnerable and dare to go beneath"},{"speaker":"something similar","startTime":1770.44,"endTime":1773.91,"body":"the surface."}]}