{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.66,"endTime":4.68,"body":"[Music]"},{"startTime":36.06,"endTime":42.54,"body":"Welcome back. Last episode we talked with Dr. "},{"startTime":36.06,"endTime":42.54,"body":"Matthew Byrne to explore what it means to innovate  "},{"startTime":42.54,"endTime":49.08,"body":"in the third space. Today we return to revisit the "},{"startTime":42.54,"endTime":49.08,"body":"third space and discuss more about opportunities  "},{"startTime":49.08,"endTime":54.36,"body":"for health care to problem solve in this creative "},{"startTime":49.08,"endTime":54.36,"body":"and diverse space. Thank you for joining us.  "},{"startTime":55.8,"endTime":63.18,"body":"You know when you say that when it doesn't have "},{"startTime":55.8,"endTime":63.18,"body":"a name it's hard to talk about it's hard to  "},{"startTime":63.18,"endTime":70.32,"body":"formalize it as an idea as something valuable, it's "},{"startTime":63.18,"endTime":70.32,"body":"hard to build it and create it and foster it.  "},{"startTime":70.32,"endTime":76.32,"body":"But then once you put a name on it then...all of a sudden it loses some of its  "},{"startTime":76.32,"endTime":83.1,"body":"magic, maybe? Like then it becomes a thing that "},{"startTime":76.32,"endTime":83.1,"body":"you have to become or thing you have to do and or  "},{"startTime":83.1,"endTime":89.64,"body":"thing that people may try to fit into "},{"startTime":83.1,"endTime":89.64,"body":"and maybe it's not as organic and then it becomes  "},{"startTime":89.64,"endTime":94.92,"body":"like a like another role, like another thing. "},{"startTime":89.64,"endTime":94.92,"body":"You know what I mean? It can lose some of its..."},{"startTime":98.22,"endTime":106.98,"body":"power? Specialness? Power is the wrong word but yeah. I think "},{"startTime":98.22,"endTime":106.98,"body":"maybe this is connected to boundaries   "},{"startTime":106.98,"endTime":111.3,"body":"because when you start to name it, it starts to "},{"startTime":106.98,"endTime":111.3,"body":"become this entity, this thing. Well, an entity and  "},{"startTime":111.3,"endTime":117.18,"body":"a thing has boundaries right? It has"},{"startTime":111.3,"endTime":117.18,"body":"competencies and yeah exactly it has boundaries.  "},{"startTime":117.18,"endTime":122.04,"body":"Right, and the whole way, if I'm hearing "},{"startTime":117.18,"endTime":122.04,"body":"you right Matt and understanding this, is the  "},{"startTime":122.04,"endTime":129.24,"body":"whole idea is letting go of those boundaries, right, "},{"startTime":122.04,"endTime":129.24,"body":"and opening our minds to seeing and thinking  "},{"startTime":129.24,"endTime":136.98,"body":"in different ways. So I'm with you Michelle "},{"startTime":129.24,"endTime":136.98,"body":"on this meta thinking here. I think it does...  "},{"startTime":136.98,"endTime":141.9,"body":"It's a dilemma. It is a dilemma, but I "},{"startTime":136.98,"endTime":141.9,"body":"think some of the idea here is that when you do  "},{"startTime":143.16,"endTime":147.42,"body":"open those boundaries and create that sort of "},{"startTime":143.16,"endTime":147.42,"body":"intellectual diffusion that doesn't mean you  "},{"startTime":147.42,"endTime":152.22,"body":"stay in that state forever. I mean, ideally "},{"startTime":147.42,"endTime":152.22,"body":"you leave that space and return with maybe  "},{"startTime":152.22,"endTime":157.74,"body":"reconstructive thinking or a better understanding "},{"startTime":152.22,"endTime":157.74,"body":"of where it's good to have diffuse boundaries and  "},{"startTime":157.74,"endTime":162.96,"body":"where it isn't, but also you've maybe expanded "},{"startTime":157.74,"endTime":162.96,"body":"your intellectual footprint because you're now  "},{"startTime":162.96,"endTime":167.4,"body":"more empathetic and more understanding of another "},{"startTime":162.96,"endTime":167.4,"body":"person's perspective. I mean, that's part of why  "},{"startTime":167.4,"endTime":173.1,"body":"we do the work we do around building cultural humility. We expose our students to  "},{"startTime":173.1,"endTime":178.14,"body":"situations and people that they normally wouldn't "},{"startTime":173.1,"endTime":178.14,"body":"be exposed to to build their empathy and  "},{"startTime":178.14,"endTime":185.04,"body":"humility. I think the same thing can happen in the "},{"startTime":178.14,"endTime":185.04,"body":"third space where you want to  "},{"startTime":185.04,"endTime":190.2,"body":"expand yourself and expand your comfort zone for "},{"startTime":185.04,"endTime":190.2,"body":"the greater good of whatever you're talking about.  "},{"startTime":190.86,"endTime":195.3,"body":"But yeah, it can be tricky and I don't think "},{"startTime":190.86,"endTime":195.3,"body":"it's going to lose specialness by naming it. If  "},{"startTime":195.3,"endTime":202.92,"body":"anything, I think it'll help. It'll help us move "},{"startTime":195.3,"endTime":202.92,"body":"into a situation where we can intentionally  "},{"startTime":203.76,"endTime":209.82,"body":"create third spaces to address the thorny problems "},{"startTime":203.76,"endTime":209.82,"body":"we have in front of us, and one of the things  "},{"startTime":209.82,"endTime":214.08,"body":"I've been thinking a ton about lately is "},{"startTime":209.82,"endTime":214.08,"body":"this ChatGPT. I don't know if you guys  "},{"startTime":214.08,"endTime":221.22,"body":"have heard about that yet. It's basically a piece "},{"startTime":214.08,"endTime":221.22,"body":"of artificial intelligence software you type in -   "},{"startTime":222.12,"endTime":230.88,"body":"write me a birthday card in Shakespearean "},{"startTime":222.12,"endTime":230.88,"body":"language and it will spit that out by looking  "},{"startTime":230.88,"endTime":235.68,"body":"at everything on the internet. Well, it's about to "},{"startTime":230.88,"endTime":235.68,"body":"have a radical impact on teaching and learning for  "},{"startTime":235.68,"endTime":244.86,"body":"us because students could just type in - write me "},{"startTime":235.68,"endTime":244.86,"body":"a treatise on how Florence Nightingale impacted  "},{"startTime":244.86,"endTime":249.12,"body":"modern nursing and it will just go score the "},{"startTime":244.86,"endTime":249.12,"body":"internet and write you a paper about that.  "},{"startTime":250.44,"endTime":255.3,"body":"When I think about third space, "},{"startTime":250.44,"endTime":255.3,"body":"it's like, well I have to approach this problem,  "},{"startTime":255.3,"endTime":261.78,"body":"this learning problem, as an academic, as a "},{"startTime":255.3,"endTime":261.78,"body":"technologist, as a philosopher, as an academic  "},{"startTime":261.78,"endTime":268.74,"body":"administrator, and figure out like is the "},{"startTime":261.78,"endTime":268.74,"body":"tool inherently evil or is it just a tool?And  "},{"startTime":268.74,"endTime":274.32,"body":"how do we navigate this for students?  I think this third space is going to become super...it is  "},{"startTime":274.32,"endTime":278.7,"body":"super important and will become progressively "},{"startTime":274.32,"endTime":278.7,"body":"more important as our problems become thornier  "},{"startTime":278.7,"endTime":287.28,"body":"and more complex. They're not just a single lane "},{"startTime":278.7,"endTime":287.28,"body":"issue like ChatGPT, they're a multi-lane issue  "},{"startTime":287.28,"endTime":292.44,"body":"that requires us to think in really different ways "},{"startTime":287.28,"endTime":292.44,"body":"than we have before about how to address it. "},{"startTime":293.58,"endTime":299.64,"body":"That's a phenomenal example. I appreciate you "},{"startTime":293.58,"endTime":299.64,"body":"sharing that because that brings this to  "},{"startTime":299.64,"endTime":305.34,"body":"life more for me to help me understand more about "},{"startTime":299.64,"endTime":305.34,"body":"this concept of third spacings. Looking back I  "},{"startTime":305.34,"endTime":311.4,"body":"can recognize moments in time in my career where "},{"startTime":305.34,"endTime":311.4,"body":"I really have...tried to create  "},{"startTime":311.4,"endTime":315.72,"body":"a third space. I don't know whether we "},{"startTime":311.4,"endTime":315.72,"body":"got there or not, or maybe we needed one and  "},{"startTime":315.72,"endTime":323.94,"body":"it wasn't totally. There's so much processing and "},{"startTime":315.72,"endTime":323.94,"body":"running for me. I think that I agree with you.  "},{"startTime":323.94,"endTime":329.22,"body":"I agree both when you name it, right, then it "},{"startTime":323.94,"endTime":329.22,"body":"becomes this thing. I also agree that we still  "},{"startTime":329.22,"endTime":333.96,"body":"need to name it, right, because we got to name it to "},{"startTime":329.22,"endTime":333.96,"body":"be able to recognize it so that we can figure out  "},{"startTime":334.74,"endTime":341.46,"body":"how do we help create more opportunities and "},{"startTime":334.74,"endTime":341.46,"body":"equip people with the skills to be able to  "},{"startTime":341.46,"endTime":346.02,"body":"cognitive, it's I think it's a cognitive shift, "},{"startTime":341.46,"endTime":346.02,"body":"right? It's a mindset and then I think about  "},{"startTime":346.02,"endTime":351.54,"body":"the cognitive fatigue that goes into that. "},{"startTime":346.02,"endTime":351.54,"body":"I see a ton of research in this area of just  "},{"startTime":353.28,"endTime":358.2,"body":"understanding not only more about it but "},{"startTime":353.28,"endTime":358.2,"body":"how do we help be able to transition into it,  "},{"startTime":358.2,"endTime":361.62,"body":"transition out of it? When do we transition "},{"startTime":358.2,"endTime":361.62,"body":"into it, when do we transition out of it?  "},{"startTime":363.06,"endTime":367.44,"body":"I think that's what's new in this space "},{"startTime":363.06,"endTime":367.44,"body":"for me. I've been reading all this  "},{"startTime":367.44,"endTime":372.12,"body":"multi-disciplinary articles about it "},{"startTime":367.44,"endTime":372.12,"body":"and whatever else. I think there's still a lot of  "},{"startTime":373.68,"endTime":379.74,"body":"conceptual confusion. There's a lot of mixing up "},{"startTime":373.68,"endTime":379.74,"body":"of like what is participatory design, which is a  "},{"startTime":379.74,"endTime":387.36,"body":"research approach that might use a third space "},{"startTime":379.74,"endTime":387.36,"body":"to bring participants in, but those are  "},{"startTime":387.36,"endTime":395.16,"body":"conflated. I think you see confusion about a third "},{"startTime":387.36,"endTime":395.16,"body":"space professional and a third space where you  "},{"startTime":395.16,"endTime":400.38,"body":"might bring third space professionals together "},{"startTime":395.16,"endTime":400.38,"body":"and then you see all these different words.  "},{"startTime":400.38,"endTime":405.6,"body":"You see transformative collaboration. "},{"startTime":400.38,"endTime":405.6,"body":"You see knowledge synergy. You see all this  "},{"startTime":405.6,"endTime":411.48,"body":"and I'm even adding to it with my own  "},{"startTime":405.6,"endTime":411.48,"body":"co-creative confluence. I think that's some  "},{"startTime":411.48,"endTime":417.12,"body":"of the challenges like, what is this thing? Once "},{"startTime":411.48,"endTime":417.12,"body":"we figure out what that thing is we can figure  "},{"startTime":417.12,"endTime":424.02,"body":"out how to bring people into it, make it optimally "},{"startTime":417.12,"endTime":424.02,"body":"effective, but also figure out like maybe people  "},{"startTime":424.02,"endTime":429.48,"body":"can't sit in that space for more than two hours "},{"startTime":424.02,"endTime":429.48,"body":"because it's going to exhaust their sort of  "},{"startTime":430.26,"endTime":436.62,"body":"cognitive RAM. They only have so much intellectual "},{"startTime":430.26,"endTime":436.62,"body":"capacity to let go of self and professional  "},{"startTime":436.62,"endTime":442.86,"body":"boundaries and whatever else. That "},{"startTime":436.62,"endTime":442.86,"body":"is the frontier of this work. How do  "},{"startTime":442.86,"endTime":447.42,"body":"we...it's not a light switch, you know? You have "},{"startTime":442.86,"endTime":447.42,"body":"to have the right people and I think that's  "},{"startTime":447.42,"endTime":452.82,"body":"what I'm exploring is like, how does "},{"startTime":447.42,"endTime":452.82,"body":"this really work? And I'm looking at things like  "},{"startTime":452.82,"endTime":456.48,"body":"what is the environment? Can you do it virtually? "},{"startTime":452.82,"endTime":456.48,"body":"Does it have to be in a room and what does the  "},{"startTime":456.48,"endTime":460.74,"body":"room have to look like? And you have to have the "},{"startTime":456.48,"endTime":460.74,"body":"lights down and what are the personal qualities  "},{"startTime":460.74,"endTime":465.6,"body":"people have to have? What are the interprofessional "},{"startTime":460.74,"endTime":465.6,"body":"dynamics that can make it good or bad? And what are  "},{"startTime":465.6,"endTime":471.9,"body":"the context because maybe some problems aren't "},{"startTime":465.6,"endTime":471.9,"body":"amenable to a third space discussion. So you  "},{"startTime":471.9,"endTime":476.64,"body":"could throw all these different problems out "},{"startTime":471.9,"endTime":476.64,"body":"there and and maybe a ChatGPT isn't amenable  "},{"startTime":476.64,"endTime":481.68,"body":"to a third space discussion. I think it is, but "},{"startTime":476.64,"endTime":481.68,"body":"there's a lot to factor in and I think that's  "},{"startTime":481.68,"endTime":486.42,"body":"where there's a lot of gaps in this literature "},{"startTime":481.68,"endTime":486.42,"body":"because of the naming problems, but also because  "},{"startTime":486.42,"endTime":492.24,"body":"it's just not something we as nurses or we in "},{"startTime":486.42,"endTime":492.24,"body":"the academic community have talked a lot about.  "},{"startTime":492.84,"endTime":497.64,"body":"This is a really important point this "},{"startTime":492.84,"endTime":497.64,"body":"lexicon because it's going to be a huge  "},{"startTime":498.24,"endTime":503.34,"body":"barrier to really advancing the state of knowledge "},{"startTime":498.24,"endTime":503.34,"body":"in this area and I think about something related  "},{"startTime":503.34,"endTime":508.8,"body":"in the space of standardized patients and "},{"startTime":503.34,"endTime":508.8,"body":"simulation. So several years ago I was involved  "},{"startTime":508.8,"endTime":514.2,"body":"in some work where we were surveying on a global "},{"startTime":508.8,"endTime":514.2,"body":"scale what was the lexicon that was used around  "},{"startTime":514.2,"endTime":519.84,"body":"standardized patients and how different it is and "},{"startTime":514.2,"endTime":519.84,"body":"how conflated it gets and how it's not consistent  "},{"startTime":519.84,"endTime":523.56,"body":"and how that can really serve as a barrier "},{"startTime":519.84,"endTime":523.56,"body":"to advancing our knowledge and understanding  "},{"startTime":523.56,"endTime":527.82,"body":"of the practice of standardized patients and "},{"startTime":523.56,"endTime":527.82,"body":"simulation. I see that very parallel to this,  "},{"startTime":527.82,"endTime":535.56,"body":"right? If if that lexicon is not teased apart and "},{"startTime":527.82,"endTime":535.56,"body":"we don't have a shared mental model about what  "},{"startTime":535.56,"endTime":541.68,"body":"the different words mean and the concepts on a "},{"startTime":535.56,"endTime":541.68,"body":"conceptual definition, on an operational level,  "},{"startTime":543.0,"endTime":548.22,"body":"this really could stifle the growth of this. "},{"startTime":543.0,"endTime":548.22,"body":"I'm going to pose a question to you, Matt. "},{"startTime":548.82,"endTime":554.22,"body":"It leads me to think about the folks just "},{"startTime":548.82,"endTime":554.22,"body":"like myself, when I first had the opportunity  "},{"startTime":554.22,"endTime":561.06,"body":"and the honor to hear your expertise "},{"startTime":554.22,"endTime":561.06,"body":"in this area. My first question was, where can  "},{"startTime":561.06,"endTime":565.2,"body":"I go to learn more, right? So for those of you, "},{"startTime":561.06,"endTime":565.2,"body":"those who may be listening and thinking, man  "},{"startTime":565.2,"endTime":569.94,"body":"this is fascinating. I want to dig my teeth into "},{"startTime":565.2,"endTime":569.94,"body":"this. What recommendations would you have? Where  "},{"startTime":569.94,"endTime":575.94,"body":"should they go to really start to unpack this "},{"startTime":569.94,"endTime":575.94,"body":"idea of third spacing in a way that's reliable  "},{"startTime":575.94,"endTime":581.94,"body":"so they don't get lost in the conflated "},{"startTime":575.94,"endTime":581.94,"body":"vocabulary? Yeah, okay, so in terms of naming  "},{"startTime":583.2,"endTime":587.7,"body":"I had the very great fortune to study under Norma "},{"startTime":583.2,"endTime":587.7,"body":"Lang. You probably you guys probably don't know  "},{"startTime":587.7,"endTime":593.46,"body":"that name, but she was and is one of "},{"startTime":587.7,"endTime":593.46,"body":"the pioneers of nursing informatics. And you've  "},{"startTime":593.46,"endTime":598.38,"body":"probably seen the quote that her and Dr. Clark "},{"startTime":593.46,"endTime":598.38,"body":"had in one of their articles about if we can't  "},{"startTime":598.38,"endTime":603.6,"body":"name, it we can't fund it, we can't research it, "},{"startTime":598.38,"endTime":603.6,"body":"that comes from her. So I had the great fortune to  "},{"startTime":603.6,"endTime":609.36,"body":"study under her. So I think naming is super, super "},{"startTime":603.6,"endTime":609.36,"body":"important. There's a Shakespearean  "},{"startTime":609.36,"endTime":615.12,"body":"contradictory a rose by any other name would smell as "},{"startTime":609.36,"endTime":615.12,"body":"sweet, but when it comes to research, you know  "},{"startTime":615.12,"endTime":620.04,"body":"we can tell the concept is immature if it has "},{"startTime":615.12,"endTime":620.04,"body":"a lot of different names and I think this is a  "},{"startTime":620.04,"endTime":625.5,"body":"case where there's an immaturity to this concept "},{"startTime":620.04,"endTime":625.5,"body":"because we don't all call it the same thing. We  "},{"startTime":625.5,"endTime":631.68,"body":"don't all you know talk about the attributes of "},{"startTime":625.5,"endTime":631.68,"body":"this phenomenon in the same way so there's room to  "},{"startTime":632.7,"endTime":639.12,"body":"sort of coalesce the interdisciplinary knowledge "},{"startTime":632.7,"endTime":639.12,"body":"around it. I think when you do that then it's  "},{"startTime":639.12,"endTime":645.24,"body":"easier to fund it, to teach people about it, "},{"startTime":639.12,"endTime":645.24,"body":"to recognize it, to do all those things.   "},{"startTime":645.24,"endTime":650.1,"body":"I think naming is super super critical and really "},{"startTime":645.24,"endTime":650.1,"body":"messy right now in terms of where do I learn more.  "},{"startTime":650.82,"endTime":659.16,"body":"Just yesterday I found the book I wanted to "},{"startTime":650.82,"endTime":659.16,"body":"write on this topic. There are some...and it was  "},{"startTime":659.16,"endTime":664.74,"body":"in an obscure place. It's Hansen, Fourie and Meyer. "},{"startTime":659.16,"endTime":664.74,"body":"They wrote a book called \"Third Space, Information  "},{"startTime":664.74,"endTime":670.08,"body":"Sharing, and Participatory Design. I read "},{"startTime":664.74,"endTime":670.08,"body":"as much as I could as quickly as I could. I was  "},{"startTime":670.08,"endTime":675.12,"body":"like, well, yeah, this is the book I wanted to "},{"startTime":670.08,"endTime":675.12,"body":"write. It's in some synthesis of lectures  "},{"startTime":675.9,"endTime":682.02,"body":"in some esoteric book that's out on the "},{"startTime":675.9,"endTime":682.02,"body":"internet I had to go buy the ebook and  "},{"startTime":682.02,"endTime":686.52,"body":"the the marketplace they directed me to said, oh "},{"startTime":682.02,"endTime":686.52,"body":"we don't sell that anymore. You have to go to a  "},{"startTime":686.52,"endTime":691.02,"body":"different marketplace, so finding more about "},{"startTime":686.52,"endTime":691.02,"body":"this is not easy because of the name.  "},{"startTime":692.1,"endTime":697.74,"body":"But because you know this isn't like Covid, "},{"startTime":692.1,"endTime":697.74,"body":"so it's not something everybody's  "},{"startTime":697.74,"endTime":703.02,"body":"publishing on, but I think if they want to learn "},{"startTime":697.74,"endTime":703.02,"body":"more about it, I think often starting  "},{"startTime":703.02,"endTime":712.8,"body":"with something like participatory design, which is "},{"startTime":703.02,"endTime":712.8,"body":"a very mainstream design practice as well as  "},{"startTime":712.8,"endTime":717.36,"body":"something called communities of practice. I don't "},{"startTime":712.8,"endTime":717.36,"body":"know how familiar you guys are with that term but  "},{"startTime":717.36,"endTime":724.14,"body":"that's a very academic thing where we bring people "},{"startTime":717.36,"endTime":724.14,"body":"together to talk about different principles and I  "},{"startTime":724.14,"endTime":731.16,"body":"think communities of practice there's a lot of "},{"startTime":724.14,"endTime":731.16,"body":"informing of what how a third space can work.  "},{"startTime":731.16,"endTime":736.02,"body":"So I've read a lot about communities of practice "},{"startTime":731.16,"endTime":736.02,"body":"and participatory design so I would say those are  "},{"startTime":736.02,"endTime":743.82,"body":"very accessible areas of research and  "},{"startTime":736.02,"endTime":743.82,"body":"phenomenon where you can dig in and say, okay , "},{"startTime":743.82,"endTime":748.56,"body":"what is this? What are things adjacent to this "},{"startTime":743.82,"endTime":748.56,"body":"weird mystical third space that is going on? And  "},{"startTime":748.56,"endTime":753.6,"body":"on about those two definitely I think you could "},{"startTime":748.56,"endTime":753.6,"body":"read those and get a sense of how you bring  "},{"startTime":753.6,"endTime":760.68,"body":"a group together to do really cool things."},{"startTime":753.6,"endTime":760.68,"body":"Participatory design is very us-them. It's the  "},{"startTime":760.68,"endTime":766.02,"body":"designers and participants coming together and "},{"startTime":760.68,"endTime":766.02,"body":"trying to create an environment where those end  "},{"startTime":766.02,"endTime":772.5,"body":"users, those participants create something special. "},{"startTime":766.02,"endTime":772.5,"body":"Third space is all these different people gathered  "},{"startTime":772.5,"endTime":778.8,"body":"at a table to tackle an issue which is what "},{"startTime":772.5,"endTime":778.8,"body":"makes it a little bit different in terms of just  "},{"startTime":778.8,"endTime":784.92,"body":"designers end users. Third space we bring "},{"startTime":778.8,"endTime":784.92,"body":"a whole bunch of interprofessional colleagues  "},{"startTime":784.92,"endTime":789.72,"body":"together and talk about even more complex things "},{"startTime":784.92,"endTime":789.72,"body":"and there's not a, hey, I need to gain information  "},{"startTime":789.72,"endTime":795.12,"body":"from you. It's that we all need to gain information "},{"startTime":789.72,"endTime":795.12,"body":"from each other and build this completely unique  "},{"startTime":795.12,"endTime":801.12,"body":"and different intellectual palace to solve "},{"startTime":795.12,"endTime":801.12,"body":"whatever thorny problems we have. I don't  "},{"startTime":801.12,"endTime":808.86,"body":"know if I got to your question, Rachel. You did,"},{"startTime":801.12,"endTime":808.86,"body":"thank you. I don't know if this question is  "},{"startTime":808.86,"endTime":815.04,"body":"like dumb or if it's just too out there. This is a safe space "},{"startTime":808.86,"endTime":815.04,"body":"Michelle! This is a safe space! You know, I mean  "},{"startTime":815.04,"endTime":822.06,"body":"but here's my question. Do we need a third "},{"startTime":815.04,"endTime":822.06,"body":"space to identify and name the third space?"},{"startTime":823.08,"endTime":830.2,"body":"That is so meta, Michelle. Very meta. I would expect you to ask that question. I would expect that to be your question."},{"startTime":830.2,"endTime":835.2,"body":"That is a meta Michelle question. It's so predictable. It's so predictable. I mean,"},{"startTime":835.2,"endTime":841.2,"body":"but seriously though "},{"startTime":835.2,"endTime":841.2,"body":"if you're going to talk about getting a lexicon  "},{"startTime":841.2,"endTime":847.5,"body":"around these concepts and the who and the "},{"startTime":841.2,"endTime":847.5,"body":"how and the why and the when and the where.  "},{"startTime":849.3,"endTime":854.94,"body":"That's not something because I'm like all "},{"startTime":849.3,"endTime":854.94,"body":"fired up and I'm like, well, let's start naming it.  "},{"startTime":854.94,"endTime":860.76,"body":"Let's start doing it, but we're just...that's a bad word, but we're nurses, we need  "},{"startTime":860.76,"endTime":867.24,"body":"all the other people, right? You need the other disciplines to to help us like the  "},{"startTime":867.24,"endTime":871.98,"body":"social sciences and the behavioral scientists "},{"startTime":867.24,"endTime":871.98,"body":"and the stuff you know? Right. Right. Am I right  "},{"startTime":871.98,"endTime":875.76,"body":"about that? Am I understanding it correctly that "},{"startTime":871.98,"endTime":875.76,"body":"we this isn't something just nursing could be  "},{"startTime":875.76,"endTime":881.76,"body":"like, so we like all this and we're gonna just "},{"startTime":875.76,"endTime":881.76,"body":"start using a third space like it needs to be  "},{"startTime":881.76,"endTime":887.16,"body":"collaborative right. I think it does and and I "},{"startTime":881.76,"endTime":887.16,"body":"think where this is what gets tricky and you're  "},{"startTime":887.16,"endTime":891.06,"body":"stealing my thunder a little bit because "},{"startTime":887.16,"endTime":891.06,"body":"I'm absolutely very interested in bringing  "},{"startTime":891.06,"endTime":895.14,"body":"together multiple disciplinary groups "},{"startTime":891.06,"endTime":895.14,"body":"to talk about third space in the third space.  "},{"startTime":895.98,"endTime":900.84,"body":"So I'm very interested in that like I said. I "},{"startTime":895.98,"endTime":900.84,"body":"reached out to colleagues all over the world and  "},{"startTime":900.84,"endTime":906.24,"body":"and I think they're just like any of us "},{"startTime":900.84,"endTime":906.24,"body":"who are nerdy researchers or nerdy about whatever.  "},{"startTime":906.24,"endTime":909.9,"body":"They were very excited to talk about these things, "},{"startTime":906.24,"endTime":909.9,"body":"but you have to figure out who to bring  "},{"startTime":909.9,"endTime":915.36,"body":"together and let's talk about I think there "},{"startTime":909.9,"endTime":915.36,"body":"are smaller scale models that people can take  "},{"startTime":915.36,"endTime":919.8,"body":"away from this to think about. So I'll give you "},{"startTime":915.36,"endTime":919.8,"body":"a good example. I was thinking this morning about  "},{"startTime":920.82,"endTime":926.82,"body":"course evaluations and faculty evaluations.  "},{"startTime":920.82,"endTime":926.82,"body":"Students have an opportunity to tell us how the  "},{"startTime":926.82,"endTime":933.72,"body":"course was and how we did, but it is very rare for "},{"startTime":926.82,"endTime":933.72,"body":"us to bring students in at the front of a course  "},{"startTime":935.16,"endTime":942.54,"body":"and say what do you think? They are "},{"startTime":935.16,"endTime":942.54,"body":"not in a participatory design space. They're  "},{"startTime":942.54,"endTime":950.16,"body":"telling us afterwards what worked or didn't work  using an anonymous survey. That is not  "},{"startTime":950.16,"endTime":957.6,"body":"participatory design. A part of me says well, why "},{"startTime":950.16,"endTime":957.6,"body":"aren't we rethinking the way we teach using the  "},{"startTime":957.6,"endTime":965.16,"body":"cognitive science, using what we know about online "},{"startTime":957.6,"endTime":965.16,"body":"teaching and taking an instructional designer, some  "},{"startTime":965.16,"endTime":971.82,"body":"faculty, some students, some researchers, external "},{"startTime":965.16,"endTime":971.82,"body":"experts, maybe stakeholders that are students,  "},{"startTime":971.82,"endTime":977.76,"body":"you know go work at their institution and sitting "},{"startTime":971.82,"endTime":977.76,"body":"down and throwing some thorny questions at them?  "},{"startTime":977.76,"endTime":984.9,"body":"So even in academia we don't use a participatory "},{"startTime":977.76,"endTime":984.9,"body":"design. We just ...'m going to use this word...but sort  "},{"startTime":984.9,"endTime":989.88,"body":"of patriarchically say to students, well this "},{"startTime":984.9,"endTime":989.88,"body":"is how I think you need to learn and here's  "},{"startTime":989.88,"endTime":995.64,"body":"how it's going to all be laid out before "},{"startTime":989.88,"endTime":995.64,"body":"you. We don't bring them in at the front end. I  "},{"startTime":995.64,"endTime":999.6,"body":"mean, there's probably some people that do, but I've "},{"startTime":995.64,"endTime":999.6,"body":"never seen that. I don't read that that's happening.  "},{"startTime":1000.56,"endTime":1004.88,"body":"We don't do that, so maybe even on a small scale "},{"startTime":1000.56,"endTime":1004.88,"body":"we can think about even at our home institution  "},{"startTime":1004.88,"endTime":1010.82,"body":"where we can take instructional designers and "},{"startTime":1004.88,"endTime":1010.82,"body":"faculty and students and whomever else and put  "},{"startTime":1010.82,"endTime":1015.32,"body":"them in a room and talk about a particular topic"},{"startTime":1010.82,"endTime":1015.32,"body":"that's tricky. But I'll give you a good example.  "},{"startTime":1015.92,"endTime":1024.26,"body":"We had a question come up about online "},{"startTime":1015.92,"endTime":1024.26,"body":"synchronous class participation. There's  "},{"startTime":1024.26,"endTime":1030.62,"body":"all the students are gathered at 10 am on their "},{"startTime":1024.26,"endTime":1030.62,"body":"Zoom call the faculties talking about whatever,  "},{"startTime":1030.62,"endTime":1036.74,"body":"maybe they have some breakout rooms, "},{"startTime":1030.62,"endTime":1036.74,"body":"whatever we were running into challenges with  "},{"startTime":1037.58,"endTime":1044.78,"body":"what do we tell students about how they can "},{"startTime":1037.58,"endTime":1044.78,"body":"participate and what are the expectations of  "},{"startTime":1044.78,"endTime":1049.28,"body":"engagement. So for example, cameras on or cameras "},{"startTime":1044.78,"endTime":1049.28,"body":"off well? Then we get into this debate about, well  "},{"startTime":1049.28,"endTime":1054.8,"body":"some people have body image issues or have stuff "},{"startTime":1049.28,"endTime":1054.8,"body":"going on at home and they can't have cameras on.  "},{"startTime":1055.46,"endTime":1061.46,"body":"So it's like okay, well then we can't have that "},{"startTime":1055.46,"endTime":1061.46,"body":"rule or we can have that rule sometimes so we  "},{"startTime":1062.0,"endTime":1067.28,"body":"really just have been reactionary about some of "},{"startTime":1062.0,"endTime":1067.28,"body":"these challenging issues in academia and  "},{"startTime":1067.28,"endTime":1073.22,"body":"not necessarily bringing students in at the front "},{"startTime":1067.28,"endTime":1073.22,"body":"and to address them and to give us feedback about  "},{"startTime":1073.22,"endTime":1079.4,"body":"how was the moulage in this "},{"startTime":1073.22,"endTime":1079.4,"body":"simulation or how was the unfolding of this for  "},{"startTime":1079.4,"endTime":1085.04,"body":"you? We debriefed the simulation but we don't often "},{"startTime":1079.4,"endTime":1085.04,"body":"debrief the sort of logistics and the learning  "},{"startTime":1085.04,"endTime":1090.86,"body":"experience. I think in terms of what can "},{"startTime":1085.04,"endTime":1090.86,"body":"you do right now that's third spacey I think it's  "},{"startTime":1090.86,"endTime":1097.34,"body":"thinking about bringing together sort of broad "},{"startTime":1090.86,"endTime":1097.34,"body":"base of stakeholders and creating that safe space  "},{"startTime":1097.34,"endTime":1102.62,"body":"environment that people who do simulation really "},{"startTime":1097.34,"endTime":1102.62,"body":"understand that creating that environment where  "},{"startTime":1102.62,"endTime":1107.72,"body":"people can talk about things and dream up new "},{"startTime":1102.62,"endTime":1107.72,"body":"ways of approaching sort of our normal  "},{"startTime":1107.72,"endTime":1114.86,"body":"teaching or clinical practice work. The entire "},{"startTime":1107.72,"endTime":1114.86,"body":"time we've been talking I've been making this  "},{"startTime":1115.7,"endTime":1122.54,"body":"parallel to what we know in simulation because I "},{"startTime":1115.7,"endTime":1122.54,"body":"will never forget the first time I saw students  "},{"startTime":1122.54,"endTime":1128.42,"body":"in a simulation. It was at a community college "},{"startTime":1122.54,"endTime":1128.42,"body":"down the street. It was very new.  "},{"startTime":1128.42,"endTime":1133.88,"body":"There was no pre-briefing. I don't even think there "},{"startTime":1128.42,"endTime":1133.88,"body":"was a debriefing. It was just put them in with the  "},{"startTime":1133.88,"endTime":1141.74,"body":"manikin have them do a mock code.  "},{"startTime":1133.88,"endTime":1141.74,"body":"But with that, I was like this  "},{"startTime":1141.74,"endTime":1149.72,"body":"is something. You felt this kind of like this is "},{"startTime":1141.74,"endTime":1149.72,"body":"magical. This is an important way to learn and then  "},{"startTime":1149.72,"endTime":1155.18,"body":"we built all the structure around it. We built the "},{"startTime":1149.72,"endTime":1155.18,"body":"pre-brief and the debrief. We added the theory  "},{"startTime":1155.18,"endTime":1164.36,"body":"and the support and the robustness to "},{"startTime":1155.18,"endTime":1164.36,"body":"it. I feel like this feels similar. There's  "},{"startTime":1164.36,"endTime":1171.14,"body":"third space. There's magic but...we or somebody or the third space has to  "},{"startTime":1171.14,"endTime":1177.8,"body":"create all the the other stuff and maybe in a way "},{"startTime":1171.14,"endTime":1177.8,"body":"naming it and reducing that magic is okay to me.  "},{"startTime":1177.8,"endTime":1183.14,"body":"I'm always skeptical when somebody's "},{"startTime":1177.8,"endTime":1183.14,"body":"like, oh it was magic, it was a miracle. I'm like, I'm  "},{"startTime":1183.14,"endTime":1188.54,"body":"a scientist. Yes, I understand we "},{"startTime":1183.14,"endTime":1188.54,"body":"have limits to humans understanding but typically  "},{"startTime":1188.54,"endTime":1191.9,"body":"when there's something that I would describe "},{"startTime":1188.54,"endTime":1191.9,"body":"as magical or mystical or that my kids would  "},{"startTime":1191.9,"endTime":1195.44,"body":"I would go well there's probably some science "},{"startTime":1191.9,"endTime":1195.44,"body":"underneath there somewhere and sure enough there  "},{"startTime":1195.44,"endTime":1202.16,"body":"will be and so in the case of third space I'm "},{"startTime":1195.44,"endTime":1202.16,"body":"buying demystifying that for myself and others  "},{"startTime":1202.16,"endTime":1207.02,"body":"because I think it can be a powerful tool to "},{"startTime":1202.16,"endTime":1207.02,"body":"address learning problems. Again. it can't, it's  "},{"startTime":1207.02,"endTime":1211.52,"body":"not a fit for every problem. Dealing with "},{"startTime":1207.02,"endTime":1211.52,"body":"an administrative project is not something we're  "},{"startTime":1211.52,"endTime":1218.3,"body":"going to bring students into to solve but "},{"startTime":1211.52,"endTime":1218.3,"body":"looking at these new innovations like  "},{"startTime":1218.3,"endTime":1223.52,"body":"ChatGPT, that's a great place to bring students in "},{"startTime":1218.3,"endTime":1223.52,"body":"and go hey are you guys talking about it? What do  "},{"startTime":1223.52,"endTime":1228.8,"body":"you think about it? Where do you see that it "},{"startTime":1223.52,"endTime":1228.8,"body":"could be used or misused? Then how do we  "},{"startTime":1228.8,"endTime":1233.78,"body":"talk to students about it at the top of "},{"startTime":1228.8,"endTime":1233.78,"body":"a class. Is it just the new breed of plagiarism?  "},{"startTime":1235.04,"endTime":1240.92,"body":"Where are you at on that? I think demystifying "},{"startTime":1235.04,"endTime":1240.92,"body":"third space is great and I think there's a lot  "},{"startTime":1240.92,"endTime":1246.5,"body":"of utility in academia especially because you "},{"startTime":1240.92,"endTime":1246.5,"body":"have this environment full of interprofessional  "},{"startTime":1246.5,"endTime":1253.04,"body":"colleagues. It's just organically there for you to "},{"startTime":1246.5,"endTime":1253.04,"body":"pull people together in a conference room and  "},{"startTime":1253.04,"endTime":1257.42,"body":"say you know here's the thing. Let's talk "},{"startTime":1253.04,"endTime":1257.42,"body":"about it. Here's some of the ground rules.  "},{"startTime":1258.38,"endTime":1261.8,"body":"Go to it and include students in that. "},{"startTime":1258.38,"endTime":1261.8,"body":"I think students have been often the  "},{"startTime":1261.8,"endTime":1265.94,"body":"missing ingredient just like patients "},{"startTime":1261.8,"endTime":1265.94,"body":"have been the missing ingredient in  "},{"startTime":1265.94,"endTime":1272.54,"body":"a lot of patient care problems. We know what's best"},{"startTime":1265.94,"endTime":1272.54,"body":"for you. We know what's best for you. Yeah.  "},{"startTime":1274.28,"endTime":1281.96,"body":"I co-sign on all of that and what's now "},{"startTime":1274.28,"endTime":1281.96,"body":"becoming even more resounding in my mind is the  "},{"startTime":1281.96,"endTime":1287.66,"body":"inherent importance that everybody that is part "},{"startTime":1281.96,"endTime":1287.66,"body":"of this third space be in it for the greater good. "},{"startTime":1288.68,"endTime":1293.9,"body":"I think that may be in from my perspective "},{"startTime":1288.68,"endTime":1293.9,"body":"a difference between having an interprofessional  "},{"startTime":1293.9,"endTime":1298.7,"body":"conversation or a conversation with students and "},{"startTime":1293.9,"endTime":1298.7,"body":"faculty administrators, whoever's around that table.  "},{"startTime":1299.36,"endTime":1305.0,"body":"One important ingredient from transforming it to "},{"startTime":1299.36,"endTime":1305.0,"body":"that to a third space because I can imagine if  "},{"startTime":1305.0,"endTime":1310.58,"body":"we have a third space and someone is in the third space that does not share  "},{"startTime":1310.58,"endTime":1317.0,"body":"the greater good, what is this perspective for "},{"startTime":1310.58,"endTime":1317.0,"body":"the greater good? I imagine that third space now  "},{"startTime":1318.02,"endTime":1323.48,"body":"is not a third space for very much longer, "},{"startTime":1318.02,"endTime":1323.48,"body":"and all it takes is that one person to sort  "},{"startTime":1323.48,"endTime":1331.34,"body":"of breach that sort of artificial community "},{"startTime":1323.48,"endTime":1331.34,"body":"that's created. I always think about when you  "},{"startTime":1331.34,"endTime":1335.72,"body":"fly in a plane like it's forced community."},{"startTime":1331.34,"endTime":1335.72,"body":"You're all stuck together for two hours whether  "},{"startTime":1335.72,"endTime":1339.14,"body":"you like it or not. You're in a forced community "},{"startTime":1335.72,"endTime":1339.14,"body":"and there are some norms and rules and you have  "},{"startTime":1339.14,"endTime":1344.42,"body":"to adhere to them and when people don't chaos "},{"startTime":1339.14,"endTime":1344.42,"body":"ensues and that experience falls apart. I think  "},{"startTime":1344.42,"endTime":1348.68,"body":"the same thing can happen in the third space. "},{"startTime":1344.42,"endTime":1348.68,"body":"If you have somebody who's there who has very  "},{"startTime":1350.48,"endTime":1356.0,"body":"turf-focused goals like they walk into "},{"startTime":1350.48,"endTime":1356.0,"body":"this meeting as a nurse and go, I'm here  "},{"startTime":1356.0,"endTime":1360.44,"body":"to protect nursing practice. That's cool that we're "},{"startTime":1356.0,"endTime":1360.44,"body":"going to talk about something interesting but my  "},{"startTime":1360.44,"endTime":1364.64,"body":"perspective is always going to be nursing, nursing, "},{"startTime":1360.44,"endTime":1364.64,"body":"nursing, nursing. You can't be in that space then.  "},{"startTime":1364.64,"endTime":1370.76,"body":"It won't work and that's probably why like my "},{"startTime":1364.64,"endTime":1370.76,"body":"theory is that that's probably why I haven't been  "},{"startTime":1370.76,"endTime":1374.96,"body":"in a lot of what I would call true third space "},{"startTime":1370.76,"endTime":1374.96,"body":"experiences. I feel like I can count on  "},{"startTime":1374.96,"endTime":1380.78,"body":"one hand in 20 years when I've been in situations "},{"startTime":1374.96,"endTime":1380.78,"body":"where I felt that magic where I felt that true  "},{"startTime":1380.78,"endTime":1386.06,"body":"synergy where something greater than the sum "},{"startTime":1380.78,"endTime":1386.06,"body":"of its parts actually happened. I know it's a  "},{"startTime":1386.06,"endTime":1392.0,"body":"cheesy word, but I think third space is that true "},{"startTime":1386.06,"endTime":1392.0,"body":"is a true embodiment of synergy where something  "},{"startTime":1392.0,"endTime":1397.34,"body":"I sitting in my office I could never come up "},{"startTime":1392.0,"endTime":1397.34,"body":"with or even with sitting in at a table with  "},{"startTime":1397.34,"endTime":1402.14,"body":"a team of people I wouldn't have come up with "},{"startTime":1397.34,"endTime":1402.14,"body":"it but when all those planets align when that  "},{"startTime":1402.14,"endTime":1410.84,"body":"when those attitudes and shared goals and"},{"startTime":1402.14,"endTime":1410.84,"body":"good group process hygiene occurs. That's when the  "},{"startTime":1410.84,"endTime":1416.9,"body":"magic happens. I do think naming it, I do think "},{"startTime":1410.84,"endTime":1416.9,"body":"demystifying, I do think trying to find ways to get  "},{"startTime":1416.9,"endTime":1421.34,"body":"people into that space can be extremely valuable "},{"startTime":1416.9,"endTime":1421.34,"body":"for all the reasons that we're talking about."},{"startTime":1424.58,"endTime":1431.12,"body":"Well I really appreciate this conversation because "},{"startTime":1424.58,"endTime":1431.12,"body":"there's been a lot of times in academia where I  "},{"startTime":1431.12,"endTime":1437.9,"body":"felt very alone. I felt isolated. I felt like "},{"startTime":1431.12,"endTime":1437.9,"body":"I had to solve whatever problems at my desk,  "},{"startTime":1437.9,"endTime":1444.38,"body":"with my computer, with my brain ,with my "},{"startTime":1437.9,"endTime":1444.38,"body":"hands, and it felt and I'm being honest,  "},{"startTime":1445.04,"endTime":1454.94,"body":"it's not always that way but it felt like that a "},{"startTime":1445.04,"endTime":1454.94,"body":"lot. I think it's because inherently I value  "},{"startTime":1455.78,"endTime":1461.9,"body":"knowing that I can't solve...there's missing "},{"startTime":1455.78,"endTime":1461.9,"body":"pieces. There's things that my brain  "},{"startTime":1461.9,"endTime":1467.54,"body":"just doesn't gravitate to. There's ideas that I "},{"startTime":1461.9,"endTime":1467.54,"body":"just can't generate and I need another person.  "},{"startTime":1467.54,"endTime":1475.22,"body":"So you're either left, I think, currently in "},{"startTime":1467.54,"endTime":1475.22,"body":"most of the models I see in academia, we're left to  "},{"startTime":1476.18,"endTime":1481.76,"body":"initiate that ourselves and create a committee.  There are committees, right, that is where you  "},{"startTime":1481.76,"endTime":1486.14,"body":"have people come together so it's not that it "},{"startTime":1481.76,"endTime":1486.14,"body":"doesn't exist. I'm talking about like at 9:00 AM on  "},{"startTime":1486.14,"endTime":1491.9,"body":"Monday morning, that kind of feeling but you have "},{"startTime":1486.14,"endTime":1491.9,"body":"to initiate it yourself and you have to extend  "},{"startTime":1491.9,"endTime":1499.04,"body":"yourself and pull people in to solve some of "},{"startTime":1491.9,"endTime":1499.04,"body":"these problems, but there's not always a structure  "},{"startTime":1499.7,"endTime":1507.56,"body":"in the day-to-day workings of academia to do that "},{"startTime":1499.7,"endTime":1507.56,"body":"and that's hard. I've often wondered like  "},{"startTime":1507.56,"endTime":1513.62,"body":"we have so many issues that need administrative "},{"startTime":1507.56,"endTime":1513.62,"body":"support, can we just have a Friday huddle  "},{"startTime":1513.62,"endTime":1520.1,"body":"where every Friday from 12 to 1 the "},{"startTime":1513.62,"endTime":1520.1,"body":"administrative doors open and we all can come  "},{"startTime":1520.1,"endTime":1526.22,"body":"together and hash out some stuff"},{"startTime":1520.1,"endTime":1526.22,"body":"with the people, with the student success person,  "},{"startTime":1526.22,"endTime":1531.62,"body":"there with like interprofessionally can we just "},{"startTime":1526.22,"endTime":1531.62,"body":"have a space where that can happen. We can  "},{"startTime":1531.62,"endTime":1539.3,"body":"instead of sending the  67 emails to try "},{"startTime":1531.62,"endTime":1539.3,"body":"to figure out some of these really thorny problems,  "},{"startTime":1539.3,"endTime":1545.72,"body":"can we just have a weekly place a space to do "},{"startTime":1539.3,"endTime":1545.72,"body":"that? I've always wished for that but that  "},{"startTime":1545.72,"endTime":1552.14,"body":"sort of like how do we do committees and meetings "},{"startTime":1545.72,"endTime":1552.14,"body":"better is probably a whole other podcast.  "},{"startTime":1552.14,"endTime":1557.84,"body":"There's so much broken about all the ways that we have to communicate  "},{"startTime":1557.84,"endTime":1563.66,"body":"and how incapable we are and terrible we "},{"startTime":1557.84,"endTime":1563.66,"body":"are at communication. It's sort of laughable that  "},{"startTime":1563.66,"endTime":1568.82,"body":"we have all these modalities but just really can't  seem to figure it out. I think  "},{"startTime":1568.82,"endTime":1575.78,"body":"the huddles and the interprofessional rounds "},{"startTime":1568.82,"endTime":1575.78,"body":"that we see in healthcare, I think academia could  "},{"startTime":1575.78,"endTime":1582.2,"body":"really benefit from that in a lot of different "},{"startTime":1575.78,"endTime":1582.2,"body":"ways, especially as we've become so technology  "},{"startTime":1582.2,"endTime":1588.5,"body":"dependent. I look at what's happening at "},{"startTime":1582.2,"endTime":1588.5,"body":"St. Kate's where I teach adjunct. They've moved to  "},{"startTime":1588.5,"endTime":1593.48,"body":"a new course management system and we've really "},{"startTime":1588.5,"endTime":1593.48,"body":"relied on our instructional design partners to  "},{"startTime":1593.48,"endTime":1597.2,"body":"sort of send out little newsletters and blurbs "},{"startTime":1593.48,"endTime":1597.2,"body":"saying here's what's happening and here's what's  "},{"startTime":1597.2,"endTime":1602.12,"body":"going on and having those huddles with them about "},{"startTime":1597.2,"endTime":1602.12,"body":"things they're uncovering as people transition to  "},{"startTime":1602.12,"endTime":1608.42,"body":"this new platform. I think there could "},{"startTime":1602.12,"endTime":1608.42,"body":"really be value in rethinking how we communicate  "},{"startTime":1608.42,"endTime":1613.16,"body":"and interact and taking some lessons from third "},{"startTime":1608.42,"endTime":1613.16,"body":"space because those aren't third spaces. Those are  "},{"startTime":1613.16,"endTime":1617.6,"body":"very specific sort of what I would call team "},{"startTime":1613.16,"endTime":1617.6,"body":"spaces where you sort of stay for the most  "},{"startTime":1617.6,"endTime":1621.56,"body":"part, stay in your lane and people are trusting "},{"startTime":1617.6,"endTime":1621.56,"body":"you to stay in your lane and advocate for your  "},{"startTime":1621.56,"endTime":1626.72,"body":"perspective and talk back and forth but there's "},{"startTime":1621.56,"endTime":1626.72,"body":"probably some good lessons there from the third  "},{"startTime":1626.72,"endTime":1632.84,"body":"space world to how we can do meetings better "},{"startTime":1626.72,"endTime":1632.84,"body":"and do committees better by letting  "},{"startTime":1632.84,"endTime":1637.22,"body":"go of self sometimes and having maybe a little "},{"startTime":1632.84,"endTime":1637.22,"body":"more diffuse boundaries rather than just being so  "},{"startTime":1637.22,"endTime":1641.3,"body":"rigid about what you care about and what "},{"startTime":1637.22,"endTime":1641.3,"body":"you're what you're advocating for because there's  "},{"startTime":1641.3,"endTime":1646.52,"body":"a time and a space for that, but certain problems that's not the best way to approach it. "},{"startTime":1647.12,"endTime":1651.06,"body":"Matt, I think you just signed yourself "},{"startTime":1647.12,"endTime":1651.06,"body":"up for our next conversation! [Laughter]  "},{"startTime":1652.88,"endTime":1658.88,"body":"Anytime, anytime! This one this has been "},{"startTime":1652.88,"endTime":1658.88,"body":"super special for me because, like I said, I've  "},{"startTime":1658.88,"endTime":1662.84,"body":"been thinking about this for 20 years and I've "},{"startTime":1658.88,"endTime":1662.84,"body":"never had an opportunity to like sit down and  "},{"startTime":1662.84,"endTime":1668.36,"body":"talk with it at length with anybody so it's "},{"startTime":1662.84,"endTime":1668.36,"body":"fun for me to finally get some of this out there  "},{"startTime":1668.36,"endTime":1672.08,"body":"and bounce it off other people. I did want to "},{"startTime":1668.36,"endTime":1672.08,"body":"come back to what you said Michelle, just for a  "},{"startTime":1672.08,"endTime":1677.06,"body":"moment, because I think the things you named, those "},{"startTime":1672.08,"endTime":1677.06,"body":"laments about feeling isolated and feeling like I  "},{"startTime":1677.06,"endTime":1682.46,"body":"have to fix this on my own. Those are the woes of "},{"startTime":1677.06,"endTime":1682.46,"body":"a third space professional, people who  "},{"startTime":1682.46,"endTime":1688.16,"body":"straddle both worlds and say, wow, this works really "},{"startTime":1682.46,"endTime":1688.16,"body":"well at Laerdal. This works really well at my  "},{"startTime":1689.42,"endTime":1694.94,"body":"health care employer. Why can't we "},{"startTime":1689.42,"endTime":1694.94,"body":"do this thing in academia? I need to figure this  "},{"startTime":1694.94,"endTime":1698.9,"body":"out. I think when you live in that weird world "},{"startTime":1694.94,"endTime":1698.9,"body":"it's hard to figure out how you solve  "},{"startTime":1698.9,"endTime":1703.64,"body":"problems and you may not have compatriots "},{"startTime":1698.9,"endTime":1703.64,"body":"who are either able or willing to come to  "},{"startTime":1703.64,"endTime":1709.22,"body":"the table with you and think in that way, in a "},{"startTime":1703.64,"endTime":1709.22,"body":"different way. I think figuring finding those  "},{"startTime":1709.22,"endTime":1713.36,"body":"people is always wonderful. I talked about "},{"startTime":1709.22,"endTime":1713.36,"body":"these two DNP students who found each other  "},{"startTime":1713.36,"endTime":1719.9,"body":"and really reveled and wrote and created "},{"startTime":1713.36,"endTime":1719.9,"body":"great things from that partnership because they  "},{"startTime":1719.9,"endTime":1724.46,"body":"were, they had very different perspectives but "},{"startTime":1719.9,"endTime":1724.46,"body":"they valued that transformative  "},{"startTime":1724.46,"endTime":1728.9,"body":"collaboration they found in each other."},{"startTime":1724.46,"endTime":1728.9,"body":"I think some of it is finding compatriots who  "},{"startTime":1728.9,"endTime":1736.76,"body":"are able and recognizing who might be be able to "},{"startTime":1728.9,"endTime":1736.76,"body":"enter a third space-ish conversation with you, if  "},{"startTime":1736.76,"endTime":1743.66,"body":"not create opportunity to to intentionally say, hey, "},{"startTime":1736.76,"endTime":1743.66,"body":"you're somebody in academic administration, you're  "},{"startTime":1743.66,"endTime":1748.28,"body":"somebody in the budget office, you're somebody in "},{"startTime":1743.66,"endTime":1748.28,"body":"sort of our tech back end. Let's all come together  "},{"startTime":1748.28,"endTime":1755.48,"body":"and talk about why we can't solve whatever it is "},{"startTime":1748.28,"endTime":1755.48,"body":"or to come back to that ChatGPT question, like to  "},{"startTime":1755.48,"endTime":1760.4,"body":"put all the right people together to have an "},{"startTime":1755.48,"endTime":1760.4,"body":"open and innovative discussion about"},{"startTime":1760.4,"endTime":1764.96,"body":"what we do and then you can maybe move on to the "},{"startTime":1760.4,"endTime":1764.96,"body":"pragmatics like do we need to write a policy? Do we  "},{"startTime":1764.96,"endTime":1769.88,"body":"need to add this specifically to our plagiarism "},{"startTime":1764.96,"endTime":1769.88,"body":"policy? Or whatever else. I think sometimes  "},{"startTime":1769.88,"endTime":1777.14,"body":"going into that open diffuse space it can be "},{"startTime":1769.88,"endTime":1777.14,"body":"really hard and if it is too hard I  "},{"startTime":1777.14,"endTime":1782.9,"body":"would say you're not in that space. So if you "},{"startTime":1777.14,"endTime":1782.9,"body":"have people who don't want to be there then it  "},{"startTime":1782.9,"endTime":1790.94,"body":"sort of negates the thinking that we're in this "},{"startTime":1782.9,"endTime":1790.94,"body":"mystical place. I think those laments  "},{"startTime":1790.94,"endTime":1795.98,"body":"are very common to third space professionals. All "},{"startTime":1790.94,"endTime":1795.98,"body":"the books I read and articles I read and even  "},{"startTime":1795.98,"endTime":1801.86,"body":"my own experiences that isolation seems very "},{"startTime":1795.98,"endTime":1801.86,"body":"commonplace, but I think where I have found value  "},{"startTime":1803.12,"endTime":1808.7,"body":"is finding like-minded folks and I "},{"startTime":1803.12,"endTime":1808.7,"body":"used to do that very accidentally and now I do  "},{"startTime":1808.7,"endTime":1813.98,"body":"it very intentionally. I make it a habit "},{"startTime":1808.7,"endTime":1813.98,"body":"to meet with those folks regularly and when I have  "},{"startTime":1813.98,"endTime":1818.6,"body":"a thorny problem to collaborate with them and "},{"startTime":1813.98,"endTime":1818.6,"body":"sometimes to put three or four of us on a call  "},{"startTime":1818.6,"endTime":1827.24,"body":"and I didn't used to think of that as third space "},{"startTime":1818.6,"endTime":1827.24,"body":"work, but I now am very intentionally saying I need  "},{"startTime":1827.24,"endTime":1833.66,"body":"these three different layers of expertise and "},{"startTime":1827.24,"endTime":1833.66,"body":"sometimes I think it's okay as nurses that it's  "},{"startTime":1833.66,"endTime":1839.54,"body":"all nurses who have maybe different perspectives. "},{"startTime":1833.66,"endTime":1839.54,"body":"I think we can expand that definition of third  "},{"startTime":1839.54,"endTime":1846.5,"body":"space and say this can be a nurse researcher "},{"startTime":1839.54,"endTime":1846.5,"body":"who also does a little bit of stuff in pharma and  "},{"startTime":1846.5,"endTime":1851.84,"body":"this is a nurse educator who's been a hardcore "},{"startTime":1846.5,"endTime":1851.84,"body":"educator. It can all be nurses and we can use  "},{"startTime":1851.84,"endTime":1858.08,"body":"those lessons and those invitation "},{"startTime":1851.84,"endTime":1858.08,"body":"points and sort of common goal stuff that  "},{"startTime":1858.08,"endTime":1861.92,"body":"we're learning about third spacing and create "},{"startTime":1858.08,"endTime":1861.92,"body":"good opportunities to come up with good ideas."},{"startTime":1866.3,"endTime":1873.68,"body":"It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much "},{"startTime":1866.3,"endTime":1873.68,"body":"for sharing your passion for this and really, my  "},{"startTime":1873.68,"endTime":1880.64,"body":"mind feels really blown not to overuse that phrase "},{"startTime":1873.68,"endTime":1880.64,"body":"of mind feeling blown, but thank you for expanding  "},{"startTime":1880.64,"endTime":1887.12,"body":"my thinking and giving me lots more to think "},{"startTime":1880.64,"endTime":1887.12,"body":"about. I'm sure Michelle and listeners will feel  "},{"startTime":1887.12,"endTime":1892.88,"body":"the same, so thank you. Well I appreciate you guys "},{"startTime":1887.12,"endTime":1892.88,"body":"listening to my geeky rambling because like I  "},{"startTime":1892.88,"endTime":1897.74,"body":"said, I've had 20 years of thinking about this and "},{"startTime":1892.88,"endTime":1897.74,"body":"really very few opportunities to kind of hash  "},{"startTime":1897.74,"endTime":1903.02,"body":"it out. I really value that you guys were "},{"startTime":1897.74,"endTime":1903.02,"body":"willing to play along and to let down  "},{"startTime":1903.02,"endTime":1907.1,"body":"your boundaries and think about how this might "},{"startTime":1903.02,"endTime":1907.1,"body":"be applied to your personal and professional  "},{"startTime":1907.1,"endTime":1911.6,"body":"life because I do think this is a great "},{"startTime":1907.1,"endTime":1911.6,"body":"area that we can bring into academia and  "},{"startTime":1911.6,"endTime":1916.76,"body":"clinical practice and even into more niche worlds "},{"startTime":1911.6,"endTime":1916.76,"body":"like mine in the in the tech development side so  "},{"startTime":1916.76,"endTime":1921.74,"body":"I'm grateful for the opportunity and for "},{"startTime":1916.76,"endTime":1921.74,"body":"the fun and laughter and melting of ideas.  "},{"startTime":1924.74,"endTime":1929.9,"body":"Thank you for joining us on this episode "},{"startTime":1924.74,"endTime":1929.9,"body":"of NLN Nursing EDge Unscripted Surface.  "},{"startTime":1929.9,"endTime":1935.06,"body":"We hope you join us next time. Until then, "},{"startTime":1929.9,"endTime":1935.06,"body":"remember, whether your water is calm or choppy,  "},{"startTime":1935.06,"endTime":1939.44,"body":"stay connected, get vulnerable, "},{"startTime":1935.06,"endTime":1939.44,"body":"and dare to go beneath the surface."},{"startTime":1939.44,"endTime":1939.94,"body":"[Music]"}]}