{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":35.207,"endTime":35.723,"body":"[Music]"},{"startTime":35.724,"endTime":36.24,"body":"[Music]"},{"startTime":36.24,"endTime":43.76,"body":"Welcome to this episode of the NLN podcast, "},{"startTime":36.24,"endTime":43.76,"body":"Nursing Edge Unscripted. I am Raquel Bertiz.  "},{"startTime":43.76,"endTime":50.8,"body":"I am the host of this episode and I am from the "},{"startTime":43.76,"endTime":50.8,"body":"National League for Nursing. In this episode,  "},{"startTime":50.8,"endTime":56.64,"body":"we'll have an interesting conversation around "},{"startTime":50.8,"endTime":56.64,"body":"pedagogical preparation of nurse educator. And our  "},{"startTime":56.64,"endTime":65.04,"body":"guest for today, I'll start with Dr. Amber Young "},{"startTime":56.64,"endTime":65.04,"body":"Brice. She is an associate professor and associate  "},{"startTime":65.04,"endTime":75.12,"body":"dean for academic affairs at Marquette University "},{"startTime":65.04,"endTime":75.12,"body":"College of Nursing and Dr. Kyla Ferrar Stern is a  "},{"startTime":75.12,"endTime":82.88,"body":"clinical assistant professor at the University of "},{"startTime":75.12,"endTime":82.88,"body":"Wisconsin Milwaukee. And our two nurse educators  "},{"startTime":82.88,"endTime":89.44,"body":"with us today wrote a very interesting "},{"startTime":82.88,"endTime":89.44,"body":"article calling for a change in expectations  "},{"startTime":89.44,"endTime":95.92,"body":"a policy recommendation for future and current "},{"startTime":89.44,"endTime":95.92,"body":"educators in the Journal of Professional Nursing.  "},{"startTime":95.92,"endTime":103.84,"body":"So welcome Amber and Kyla. Thank you for joining "},{"startTime":95.92,"endTime":103.84,"body":"us. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having us. All  "},{"startTime":103.84,"endTime":113.92,"body":"right. So, let me ask you, what inspired "},{"startTime":103.84,"endTime":113.92,"body":"or informed your interest in nurse educator  "},{"startTime":113.92,"endTime":123.6,"body":"preparation? Yeah. So, I'll take this first. So for me"},{"startTime":113.92,"endTime":123.6,"body":"as a newer nurse compared to Amber  "},{"startTime":123.6,"endTime":130.48,"body":"at least, just kind of reflecting on my own "},{"startTime":123.6,"endTime":130.48,"body":"transition experience going from a nursing student  "},{"startTime":130.48,"endTime":138.32,"body":"to a bedside nurse and then again shortly after "},{"startTime":130.48,"endTime":138.32,"body":"transitioning to academic nursing or teaching."},{"startTime":138.32,"endTime":144.4,"body":"It was kind of a a whirlwind experience and there "},{"startTime":138.32,"endTime":144.4,"body":"were some bumps in the road I would say and that  "},{"startTime":144.4,"endTime":149.52,"body":"was kind of what informed my interest is how do "},{"startTime":144.4,"endTime":149.52,"body":"we make that better for future students? What  "},{"startTime":149.52,"endTime":158.0,"body":"can I do to help that transition? Mhm. I would "},{"startTime":149.52,"endTime":158.0,"body":"have to agree with Kyla that thinking about  "},{"startTime":158.0,"endTime":163.52,"body":"going through school, you know, even starting "},{"startTime":158.0,"endTime":163.52,"body":"back in elementary school, things were not easy  "},{"startTime":163.52,"endTime":169.44,"body":"for me and I constantly through all phases of my "},{"startTime":163.52,"endTime":169.44,"body":"education trying to figure out what do teachers  "},{"startTime":169.44,"endTime":174.16,"body":"want from me? And spending all of that brain "},{"startTime":169.44,"endTime":174.16,"body":"power trying to just figure that part out and  "},{"startTime":174.16,"endTime":180.4,"body":"then really missing out on a lot of key learning "},{"startTime":174.16,"endTime":180.4,"body":"moments. And so like Kyla, I developed this  "},{"startTime":180.4,"endTime":189.2,"body":"desire to help students have a better experience "},{"startTime":180.4,"endTime":189.2,"body":"than I had and really try to cut back on,   "},{"startTime":189.2,"endTime":198.48,"body":"all of that guessing, that students tend to"},{"startTime":189.2,"endTime":198.48,"body":"waste their brain space on. And so that's  "},{"startTime":198.48,"endTime":206.64,"body":"really how Kyla and I met is we both had this,  "},{"startTime":198.48,"endTime":206.64,"body":"similar interest in nursing education, which then,  "},{"startTime":206.64,"endTime":211.44,"body":"developed into doing research together. "},{"startTime":206.64,"endTime":211.44,"body":"And so, we've done a few projects together,  "},{"startTime":211.44,"endTime":215.76,"body":"you know, with students or with faculty, but all "},{"startTime":211.44,"endTime":215.76,"body":"really around nursing education and how do we  "},{"startTime":215.76,"endTime":224.0,"body":"best support student success from both sides. Wow. "},{"startTime":215.76,"endTime":224.0,"body":"Yeah, that's that's very interesting. And it's   "},{"startTime":224.0,"endTime":232.88,"body":"also kind of like a very uh similar theme "},{"startTime":224.0,"endTime":232.88,"body":"across the board as I talk to a lot of educators  "},{"startTime":232.88,"endTime":240.24,"body":"and we look back at how we were all educated as "},{"startTime":232.88,"endTime":240.24,"body":"nursing students and I would say at the back of  "},{"startTime":240.24,"endTime":247.44,"body":"our minds like I wish I could have been educated "},{"startTime":240.24,"endTime":247.44,"body":"differently or what would have been my experience  "},{"startTime":247.44,"endTime":254.8,"body":"if I had a different experience and that "},{"startTime":247.44,"endTime":254.8,"body":"goes back to our nurse educators, right? So,  "},{"startTime":254.8,"endTime":261.44,"body":"now that we're all nurse educators as well, it's "},{"startTime":254.8,"endTime":261.44,"body":"it's really high time for us to examine what's  "},{"startTime":261.44,"endTime":270.0,"body":"our pedagogical preparation or how are we being "},{"startTime":261.44,"endTime":270.0,"body":"prepared to educate and and be at that place now  "},{"startTime":270.0,"endTime":280.24,"body":"where we can really influence the preparation "},{"startTime":270.0,"endTime":280.24,"body":"of our future nurses. So with that said,  "},{"startTime":280.24,"endTime":287.84,"body":"what have you identified as primary factors "},{"startTime":280.24,"endTime":287.84,"body":"contributing to the gap in the pedagogical  "},{"startTime":287.84,"endTime":294.88,"body":"preparation among nurse educators? And I'm "},{"startTime":287.84,"endTime":294.88,"body":"I'm almost already claiming there is a gap,  "},{"startTime":294.88,"endTime":300.56,"body":"right? So maybe we should start with that, "},{"startTime":294.88,"endTime":300.56,"body":"right? Do you think there's a gap in pedagogical  "},{"startTime":300.56,"endTime":306.4,"body":"preparation? If if yes, what are "},{"startTime":300.56,"endTime":306.4,"body":"the factors that contribute to this?  "},{"startTime":307.92,"endTime":318.0,"body":"So, I think it kind of stems from the expectations "},{"startTime":307.92,"endTime":318.0,"body":"we set for our educators and what we want them  "},{"startTime":318.0,"endTime":324.64,"body":"walking in the door with. So, for most states, "},{"startTime":318.0,"endTime":324.64,"body":"it's mostly a master's degree, but is it a  "},{"startTime":324.64,"endTime":332.24,"body":"master's degree that's advanced practice that puts "},{"startTime":324.64,"endTime":332.24,"body":"you in a a clinically specialized area, or is it  "},{"startTime":332.24,"endTime":338.32,"body":"specifically focused on how to teach in like a "},{"startTime":332.24,"endTime":338.32,"body":"nursing education perspective? And so, currently,  "},{"startTime":338.32,"endTime":345.52,"body":"there's a lot of variation in what that baseline "},{"startTime":338.32,"endTime":345.52,"body":"is, what what are those expectations? So to help  "},{"startTime":345.52,"endTime":352.4,"body":"address that gap, I would say  kind of going "},{"startTime":345.52,"endTime":352.4,"body":"back to our state boards of nursing and looking at  "},{"startTime":352.4,"endTime":359.52,"body":"what do they want out of their nurses and "},{"startTime":352.4,"endTime":359.52,"body":"do they even require continuing education. So I  "},{"startTime":359.52,"endTime":365.92,"body":"think this is the gap exists based on multiple "},{"startTime":359.52,"endTime":365.92,"body":"reasons or you know um things that impact it,  "},{"startTime":365.92,"endTime":372.56,"body":"but I think that's a good like starting point is "},{"startTime":365.92,"endTime":372.56,"body":"what are those expectations? Right. Right. And  "},{"startTime":372.56,"endTime":379.84,"body":"I'll highlight there's no standard requirement "},{"startTime":372.56,"endTime":379.84,"body":"to have pedagogical preparation to teach. It's  "},{"startTime":379.84,"endTime":388.0,"body":"as simple as that. That's the gap is states to "},{"startTime":379.84,"endTime":388.0,"body":"state, school to school. There is no standard  "},{"startTime":388.0,"endTime":394.4,"body":"requirement to have any sort of preparation "},{"startTime":388.0,"endTime":394.4,"body":"to teach. And I would couple that gap also with  "},{"startTime":394.4,"endTime":398.64,"body":"financial considerations that academics we "},{"startTime":394.4,"endTime":398.64,"body":"just cannot compete with the salaries of  "},{"startTime":398.64,"endTime":405.12,"body":"bedside nurses. And so I think that contributes "},{"startTime":398.64,"endTime":405.12,"body":"to this gap in pedagogical preparation because  "},{"startTime":405.12,"endTime":411.2,"body":"it's it's it's an add-on almost and I hate to say "},{"startTime":405.12,"endTime":411.2,"body":"that but it's not a requirement for a lot  "},{"startTime":411.2,"endTime":416.96,"body":"of people that go into teaching. So yeah and I "},{"startTime":411.2,"endTime":416.96,"body":"want to highlight something that you wrote in  "},{"startTime":416.96,"endTime":429.28,"body":"your article that article that you co-wrote and  "},{"startTime":416.96,"endTime":429.28,"body":"this line about how interesting it  "},{"startTime":429.28,"endTime":443.2,"body":"is that AACN for example do not view nurse "},{"startTime":429.28,"endTime":443.2,"body":"educator or nursing educate education as an  "},{"startTime":443.2,"endTime":450.56,"body":"advanced practice or or even a specialty. And that "},{"startTime":443.2,"endTime":450.56,"body":"goes back to what you're saying in terms of well,  "},{"startTime":450.56,"endTime":459.68,"body":"we can't compete with the financial aspect of that "},{"startTime":450.56,"endTime":459.68,"body":"then because our counterparts elsewhere would be  "},{"startTime":459.68,"endTime":470.0,"body":"paid higher because they are at an advanced"},{"startTime":459.68,"endTime":470.0,"body":"degree or advanced practice level. So what are  "},{"startTime":470.0,"endTime":475.44,"body":"your thoughts on that? So what are your thoughts "},{"startTime":470.0,"endTime":475.44,"body":"and I'm throwing this to both of you. What are  "},{"startTime":475.44,"endTime":486.88,"body":"your thoughts about should we consider nurse "},{"startTime":475.44,"endTime":486.88,"body":"educator as an advanced practice? I would say  "},{"startTime":486.88,"endTime":493.76,"body":"yes. Because it's it's one thing to be "},{"startTime":486.88,"endTime":493.76,"body":"a nurse and practice in a variety of areas,  "},{"startTime":493.76,"endTime":499.92,"body":"right? And even when you start those jobs, you "},{"startTime":493.76,"endTime":499.92,"body":"get additional education and orientation to that  "},{"startTime":499.92,"endTime":507.92,"body":"specific area. Why not in teaching as well? We "},{"startTime":499.92,"endTime":507.92,"body":"are doing something different. It's it's not  "},{"startTime":507.92,"endTime":513.68,"body":"the same as going and working with patients at the "},{"startTime":507.92,"endTime":513.68,"body":"bedside. It really is its own thing to understand  "},{"startTime":513.68,"endTime":518.0,"body":"what you're trying to teach and then have it come "},{"startTime":513.68,"endTime":518.0,"body":"across in a way that your students are going to  "},{"startTime":518.0,"endTime":523.92,"body":"understand it. And that doesn't come natural for "},{"startTime":518.0,"endTime":523.92,"body":"everybody. And having some of that additional  "},{"startTime":523.92,"endTime":530.96,"body":"education behind it is important and impactful. "},{"startTime":523.92,"endTime":530.96,"body":"At least that's kind of what we saw from my  "},{"startTime":530.96,"endTime":536.64,"body":"dissertation study is that educators have such "},{"startTime":530.96,"endTime":536.64,"body":"an impact based on how they do things. But that  "},{"startTime":536.64,"endTime":542.72,"body":"doesn't come without preparation, right? And it's "},{"startTime":536.64,"endTime":542.72,"body":"interesting that AACN has that perspective because  "},{"startTime":542.72,"endTime":550.0,"body":"then  CCNE who does the accrediting is still "},{"startTime":542.72,"endTime":550.0,"body":"looking at the masters in nursing education and  "},{"startTime":550.0,"endTime":559.36,"body":"looking at are those programs including the 3Ps  "},{"startTime":550.0,"endTime":559.36,"body":"the clinical hours so on and so forth. And so   "},{"startTime":559.36,"endTime":565.68,"body":"it's just an interesting dynamic between "},{"startTime":559.36,"endTime":565.68,"body":"AACN and then CCNE and how they're approaching  "},{"startTime":565.68,"endTime":571.92,"body":"this area of nursing education. And I "},{"startTime":565.68,"endTime":571.92,"body":"would agree with Kyla. I think we're both clearly  "},{"startTime":571.92,"endTime":578.96,"body":"biased towards towards this being something "},{"startTime":571.92,"endTime":578.96,"body":"that is special. You have to understand  "},{"startTime":578.96,"endTime":584.08,"body":"learning science. You have to understand, I "},{"startTime":578.96,"endTime":584.08,"body":"mean, the theories. There's theoretical  "},{"startTime":584.08,"endTime":592.4,"body":"underpinnings of how learning works. And so you "},{"startTime":584.08,"endTime":592.4,"body":"are going through a lot of specialized courses to  "},{"startTime":592.4,"endTime":599.76,"body":"really fully understand nursing education from "},{"startTime":592.4,"endTime":599.76,"body":"that broader perspective. And so I would have  "},{"startTime":599.76,"endTime":606.4,"body":"to agree too that this is a specialization. You "},{"startTime":599.76,"endTime":606.4,"body":"are setting yourself apart from others by taking  "},{"startTime":606.4,"endTime":611.84,"body":"you know teaching and learning credits towards "},{"startTime":606.4,"endTime":611.84,"body":"that masters in nursing education or even a DNP or  "},{"startTime":611.84,"endTime":622.0,"body":"a PhD. And that brings us back to the conversation "},{"startTime":611.84,"endTime":622.0,"body":"of clinical expertise will not equate to expertise  "},{"startTime":622.0,"endTime":630.56,"body":"in education or educational pedagogy. Mhm. And "},{"startTime":622.0,"endTime":630.56,"body":"and therefore I think one way to to showcase that  "},{"startTime":630.56,"endTime":638.48,"body":"very point would be what have what are your "},{"startTime":630.56,"endTime":638.48,"body":"observations or your experiences in terms of  "},{"startTime":638.48,"endTime":648.16,"body":"transition from a clinical expertise to teaching? "},{"startTime":638.48,"endTime":648.16,"body":"So what are the experiences of nurse educators on  "},{"startTime":648.16,"endTime":657.2,"body":"that transition? I think in terms of preparedness "},{"startTime":648.16,"endTime":657.2,"body":"just like we see in practice if you like  "},{"startTime":657.2,"endTime":661.68,"body":"with our nurse externs for example they have a "},{"startTime":657.2,"endTime":661.68,"body":"little bit more pre practice under their belt  "},{"startTime":661.68,"endTime":666.24,"body":"they're in the environment they're going to feel "},{"startTime":661.68,"endTime":666.24,"body":"a little bit more confident to go do that nursing  "},{"startTime":666.24,"endTime":675.2,"body":"role when the time comes. I think if somebody "},{"startTime":666.24,"endTime":675.2,"body":"has maybe a degree where they have maybe like  "},{"startTime":675.2,"endTime":680.08,"body":"like student teaching or they're in the "},{"startTime":675.2,"endTime":680.08,"body":"classroom or they're in the clinical before  "},{"startTime":680.08,"endTime":685.36,"body":"they actually have to be there on their own. It "},{"startTime":680.08,"endTime":685.36,"body":"would be fair to say that just having that would  "},{"startTime":685.36,"endTime":692.64,"body":"improve hopefully that transition even if just "},{"startTime":685.36,"endTime":692.64,"body":"a little bit. Right. I mean there's a whole role  "},{"startTime":692.64,"endTime":700.0,"body":"transition theory. We didn't talk about this "},{"startTime":692.64,"endTime":700.0,"body":"in this specific article, but we did talk about  "},{"startTime":700.0,"endTime":704.56,"body":"it in another article. If I can just put a little "},{"startTime":700.0,"endTime":704.56,"body":"plug about the comprehensive onboarding program  "},{"startTime":704.56,"endTime":710.72,"body":"that I facilitate. So, Kyla helped me with "},{"startTime":704.56,"endTime":710.72,"body":"data analysis on that. And the transition from  "},{"startTime":710.72,"endTime":718.0,"body":"clinical practice into being an educator is "},{"startTime":710.72,"endTime":718.0,"body":"quite significant and one that I don't think  "},{"startTime":718.0,"endTime":726.16,"body":"we give enough attention to that. I had one"},{"startTime":718.0,"endTime":726.16,"body":"faculty participant and she was quoted as saying,  "},{"startTime":726.16,"endTime":732.08,"body":"you know, the feedback I got at the bedside is "},{"startTime":726.16,"endTime":732.08,"body":"not the feedback that I get as an educator. My  "},{"startTime":732.08,"endTime":738.88,"body":"patients are like, \"Thank you.\" You know, whatever "},{"startTime":732.08,"endTime":738.88,"body":"they say, students are very different and faculty  "},{"startTime":738.88,"endTime":744.24,"body":"colleague to faculty colleague, peer-to-peer is "},{"startTime":738.88,"endTime":744.24,"body":"very, very different. And so that transition in  "},{"startTime":744.24,"endTime":750.88,"body":"and of itself is significant. And then if we "},{"startTime":744.24,"endTime":750.88,"body":"add on that layer of if you have education  "},{"startTime":750.88,"endTime":756.72,"body":"preparation or not or pedical preparation or "},{"startTime":750.88,"endTime":756.72,"body":"not, that just compounds what a person can be  "},{"startTime":756.72,"endTime":762.32,"body":"experiencing in that transition into education. If "},{"startTime":756.72,"endTime":762.32,"body":"at least you have some coursework under your belt,  "},{"startTime":762.32,"endTime":767.36,"body":"you're understanding the wise of what you're "},{"startTime":762.32,"endTime":767.36,"body":"seeing and experiencing, even if it's still  "},{"startTime":767.36,"endTime":774.64,"body":"all super new and you're a novice again. Knowing "},{"startTime":767.36,"endTime":774.64,"body":"like, oh, this is probably why this is happening  "},{"startTime":774.64,"endTime":782.16,"body":"with my students can help lessen how some "},{"startTime":774.64,"endTime":782.16,"body":"of the negatives that people might experience  "},{"startTime":782.16,"endTime":790.24,"body":"bedside to education. Right. Exactly. What "},{"startTime":782.16,"endTime":790.24,"body":"you have said in that other article also  "},{"startTime":790.24,"endTime":800.48,"body":"because think about this what we have learned "},{"startTime":790.24,"endTime":800.48,"body":"in nursing education is to practice as a nurse and  "},{"startTime":800.48,"endTime":808.32,"body":"then therefore if you are going to practice as "},{"startTime":800.48,"endTime":808.32,"body":"an educator what knowledge base do you need? Well,  "},{"startTime":808.32,"endTime":817.68,"body":"obviously education, but then in many, many "},{"startTime":808.32,"endTime":817.68,"body":"cases in in the nursing uh education world,  "},{"startTime":817.68,"endTime":824.72,"body":"our clinical experts are transported into the "},{"startTime":817.68,"endTime":824.72,"body":"world of nursing education and then kind of like  "},{"startTime":824.72,"endTime":832.24,"body":"we expect them to be magically expert educators "},{"startTime":824.72,"endTime":832.24,"body":"as well. But  you're very right there. The  "},{"startTime":832.24,"endTime":840.32,"body":"role transition process is something that "},{"startTime":832.24,"endTime":840.32,"body":"we really have to consider in in this world of  "},{"startTime":840.32,"endTime":850.0,"body":"academic preparation and it's just very "},{"startTime":840.32,"endTime":850.0,"body":"interesting to look at it that way and then  "},{"startTime":850.0,"endTime":859.04,"body":"looking at what are the consequences of "},{"startTime":850.0,"endTime":859.04,"body":"inadequately prepared educators? I think that's  "},{"startTime":859.04,"endTime":866.48,"body":"something that we have to think of as a nursing "},{"startTime":859.04,"endTime":866.48,"body":"education community and the ethics of it. Right?  "},{"startTime":866.48,"endTime":872.72,"body":"So let me transition then into questions about "},{"startTime":866.48,"endTime":872.72,"body":"like hm let's talk a little bit about like what  "},{"startTime":872.72,"endTime":883.12,"body":"are the effects of nurse educators nonpreparedness "},{"startTime":872.72,"endTime":883.12,"body":"or inadequate preparation for nursing education.  "},{"startTime":883.12,"endTime":891.84,"body":"Yeah. So I think for this at least from like "},{"startTime":883.12,"endTime":891.84,"body":"what I saw in my research study is that students  "},{"startTime":891.84,"endTime":899.04,"body":"they are very quick to say like oh somebody's "},{"startTime":891.84,"endTime":899.04,"body":"doing this one way or my learning doesn't resonate  "},{"startTime":899.04,"endTime":904.64,"body":"with how this person's educating and they're very "},{"startTime":899.04,"endTime":904.64,"body":"quick to say all the negative things um that they  "},{"startTime":904.64,"endTime":910.4,"body":"don't like about their experience but they're not "},{"startTime":904.64,"endTime":910.4,"body":"always talking about the good things that happen.  "},{"startTime":910.4,"endTime":916.16,"body":"The other thing I was thinking is that if "},{"startTime":910.4,"endTime":916.16,"body":"educators don't have that background or  "},{"startTime":916.16,"endTime":924.16,"body":"that additional preparation, they might not be "},{"startTime":916.16,"endTime":924.16,"body":"using maybe the most evidence-based strategies.  "},{"startTime":924.16,"endTime":928.16,"body":"And then kind of going back to what we said "},{"startTime":924.16,"endTime":928.16,"body":"is there if they don't have it, they rely on  "},{"startTime":928.16,"endTime":934.48,"body":"how they were educated. And so students then "},{"startTime":928.16,"endTime":934.48,"body":"are like, well, I'm not getting what I need or  "},{"startTime":934.48,"endTime":939.04,"body":"um maybe there's a mismatch in how somebody's "},{"startTime":934.48,"endTime":939.04,"body":"educating versus how the students are learning.  "},{"startTime":939.04,"endTime":944.08,"body":"And so even though an educator might have good "},{"startTime":939.04,"endTime":944.08,"body":"intentions, it might not always translate to  "},{"startTime":944.08,"endTime":951.6,"body":"good learning for the students. So how they "},{"startTime":944.08,"endTime":951.6,"body":"implement it is also important. So that's  "},{"startTime":951.6,"endTime":958.96,"body":"kind of my thoughts on that one. Well, kind "},{"startTime":951.6,"endTime":958.96,"body":"of like if you're saying it that way,  "},{"startTime":958.96,"endTime":967.12,"body":"think about we're we're always ruminating "},{"startTime":958.96,"endTime":967.12,"body":"on this concept of the education practice gap,  "},{"startTime":967.12,"endTime":976.88,"body":"right? So we're always looking at why are students "},{"startTime":967.12,"endTime":976.88,"body":"inadequately prepared. So if we are to graduate  "},{"startTime":976.88,"endTime":984.48,"body":"nurses who are going to be able to practice "},{"startTime":976.88,"endTime":984.48,"body":"and navigate what we want them to be able to  "},{"startTime":984.48,"endTime":991.84,"body":"do competencies in other words how are we "},{"startTime":984.48,"endTime":991.84,"body":"educating them? But then if we don't have that  "},{"startTime":991.84,"endTime":1001.84,"body":"evidence-based set of knowledge to teach it. It "},{"startTime":991.84,"endTime":1001.84,"body":"could be like yes, yeah, it's a no-brainer. We are  "},{"startTime":1001.84,"endTime":1011.36,"body":"educating our our future nurses with with what, "},{"startTime":1001.84,"endTime":1011.36,"body":"but where did we learn all of this? Does it goes  "},{"startTime":1011.36,"endTime":1021.2,"body":"back to education on how to educate, which is of "},{"startTime":1011.36,"endTime":1021.2,"body":"course back to your point both of you is that well  "},{"startTime":1021.2,"endTime":1031.28,"body":"there's no standard preparation. If there are "},{"startTime":1021.2,"endTime":1031.28,"body":"also consequences on the institutions themselves  "},{"startTime":1031.28,"endTime":1038.4,"body":"or programs if you will or even our own nurse "},{"startTime":1031.28,"endTime":1038.4,"body":"educator community. What could be the consequences  "},{"startTime":1038.4,"endTime":1046.0,"body":"of non-standard preparation or inadequate "},{"startTime":1038.4,"endTime":1046.0,"body":"preparation of of our faculty? What's the effect  "},{"startTime":1046.0,"endTime":1057.12,"body":"what would be an effect of that in our "},{"startTime":1046.0,"endTime":1057.12,"body":"programs or in our I guess faculty uh groups?"},{"startTime":1057.12,"endTime":1063.52,"body":"I'll jump in here. I think one thing we we want to "},{"startTime":1057.12,"endTime":1063.52,"body":"make sure we're clear on is that having educator  "},{"startTime":1063.52,"endTime":1069.04,"body":"preparation, obtaining the CNE, you know, "},{"startTime":1063.52,"endTime":1069.04,"body":"the certified nurse educator doesn't equal  "},{"startTime":1069.04,"endTime":1076.0,"body":"being a good teacher either. I think it does help "},{"startTime":1069.04,"endTime":1076.0,"body":"people, again, and I said this a little earlier,  "},{"startTime":1076.0,"endTime":1082.56,"body":"understand the wise behind what's going on, "},{"startTime":1076.0,"endTime":1082.56,"body":"right? And I think that I always say this,  "},{"startTime":1082.56,"endTime":1089.36,"body":"student behavior is a form of communication. And "},{"startTime":1082.56,"endTime":1089.36,"body":"if you have some if you understand learning theory  "},{"startTime":1089.36,"endTime":1094.88,"body":"like behaviorism for example which will correspond "},{"startTime":1089.36,"endTime":1094.88,"body":"to competency based a lot because we're looking  "},{"startTime":1094.88,"endTime":1100.72,"body":"at what are students doing and showing us you "},{"startTime":1094.88,"endTime":1100.72,"body":"can kind of navigate some of those curricular  "},{"startTime":1100.72,"endTime":1106.08,"body":"decisions in a different way if you have that "},{"startTime":1100.72,"endTime":1106.08,"body":"underpinning. So I will die on the hill that we  "},{"startTime":1106.08,"endTime":1112.48,"body":"should all know about learning theory and learning "},{"startTime":1106.08,"endTime":1112.48,"body":"science um at a minimum. But I think  "},{"startTime":1112.48,"endTime":1120.0,"body":"if we have any sort of standardized preparation "},{"startTime":1112.48,"endTime":1120.0,"body":"across the board, it helps us all have a shared  "},{"startTime":1120.0,"endTime":1127.36,"body":"mental model. And I think that is maybe some of "},{"startTime":1120.0,"endTime":1127.36,"body":"the missing pieces. We have expert clinicians  "},{"startTime":1127.36,"endTime":1133.36,"body":"who are really amazing faculty. They are when "},{"startTime":1127.36,"endTime":1133.36,"body":"you couple them up with somebody that has some  "},{"startTime":1133.36,"endTime":1138.0,"body":"pedagogical preparation that understands some "},{"startTime":1133.36,"endTime":1138.0,"body":"of that learning science, how learning works.  "},{"startTime":1138.0,"endTime":1144.32,"body":"That's where the magic happens I think and "},{"startTime":1138.0,"endTime":1144.32,"body":"just think of the possibilities if all of us had  "},{"startTime":1144.32,"endTime":1153.36,"body":"some sort of underlying preparation what could "},{"startTime":1144.32,"endTime":1153.36,"body":"happen to curricula across the board if that  "},{"startTime":1153.36,"endTime":1159.44,"body":"did become something that was standardized. "},{"startTime":1153.36,"endTime":1159.44,"body":"And I think with you know thinking about  "},{"startTime":1159.44,"endTime":1165.44,"body":"educator competencies are consequences of you "},{"startTime":1159.44,"endTime":1165.44,"body":"know having an adequate knowledge base and being  "},{"startTime":1165.44,"endTime":1172.4,"body":"prepared to teach. I always think of what's our "},{"startTime":1165.44,"endTime":1172.4,"body":"ethical obligation to students. And you know,  "},{"startTime":1172.4,"endTime":1179.52,"body":"it takes a team. It takes that experience. "},{"startTime":1172.4,"endTime":1179.52,"body":"It takes mentoring and peer support to  "},{"startTime":1179.52,"endTime":1186.4,"body":"really bring all those pieces together coupled "},{"startTime":1179.52,"endTime":1186.4,"body":"with a CNE. So I want to just make sure  "},{"startTime":1186.4,"endTime":1193.2,"body":"like we're not saying CNE equals good. It just you "},{"startTime":1186.4,"endTime":1193.2,"body":"understand why like the I think the why is behind  "},{"startTime":1193.2,"endTime":1198.48,"body":"everything is really essential for us to help "},{"startTime":1193.2,"endTime":1198.48,"body":"with  all the things we're talking about. You  "},{"startTime":1198.48,"endTime":1209.12,"body":"just unpack a lot of concepts there. Amber, you "},{"startTime":1198.48,"endTime":1209.12,"body":"you  talk about what's the value of CNE. Yes.  "},{"startTime":1209.12,"endTime":1219.6,"body":"It does not equate to competencies either "},{"startTime":1209.12,"endTime":1219.6,"body":"if you will. And relating it to my own personal  "},{"startTime":1219.6,"endTime":1225.92,"body":"experiences and hearing other faculty preparing "},{"startTime":1219.6,"endTime":1225.92,"body":"for CNE and their comments like, oh, finally I know  "},{"startTime":1225.92,"endTime":1232.16,"body":"what this is. And. Right. Right. And these are "},{"startTime":1225.92,"endTime":1232.16,"body":"faculty members who have been teaching maybe  "},{"startTime":1232.16,"endTime":1237.92,"body":"like a few years already and now they're just "},{"startTime":1232.16,"endTime":1237.92,"body":"saying, \"Oh, now this is why we do this.\" Right.  "},{"startTime":1237.92,"endTime":1243.28,"body":"It's it's backwards. It's the why or having a "},{"startTime":1237.92,"endTime":1243.28,"body":"name. Like I hear the oh, that's what that's  "},{"startTime":1243.28,"endTime":1250.48,"body":"called. Right. Right. And and then think of and "},{"startTime":1243.28,"endTime":1250.48,"body":"I like the word you use and I'll borrow that.  "},{"startTime":1250.48,"endTime":1257.12,"body":"Think of the magic that could happen if you have "},{"startTime":1250.48,"endTime":1257.12,"body":"this strong clinical expertise coupled with like  "},{"startTime":1257.12,"endTime":1265.2,"body":"strong pedagogical background and therefore what "},{"startTime":1257.12,"endTime":1265.2,"body":"would that standard preparation would be. And  "},{"startTime":1265.2,"endTime":1271.44,"body":"you said well of course theory of learning "},{"startTime":1265.2,"endTime":1271.44,"body":"is number one right and we can probably name  "},{"startTime":1271.44,"endTime":1279.52,"body":"a few more into that mix of the standard "},{"startTime":1271.44,"endTime":1279.52,"body":"and therefore or standards and now I think  "},{"startTime":1279.52,"endTime":1288.72,"body":"it's also a conversation of what could "},{"startTime":1279.52,"endTime":1288.72,"body":"be possible ways to make this happen. I know it's  "},{"startTime":1288.72,"endTime":1298.64,"body":"like we can make this happen but but how what are "},{"startTime":1288.72,"endTime":1298.64,"body":"your thoughts on that? Amber, do you want to go  "},{"startTime":1298.64,"endTime":1307.52,"body":"first so I can ruminate on this? So how do we "},{"startTime":1298.64,"endTime":1307.52,"body":"make this happen? I have lots of ideas. You know,  "},{"startTime":1307.52,"endTime":1314.96,"body":"I think something that you may ask us coming "},{"startTime":1307.52,"endTime":1314.96,"body":"up, Raquel, but I'm going to say it now  "},{"startTime":1314.96,"endTime":1323.04,"body":"is having standard expectations, standardized "},{"startTime":1314.96,"endTime":1323.04,"body":"expectations for educators would really help us.  "},{"startTime":1323.04,"endTime":1330.4,"body":"Again have that shared mental model. However, "},{"startTime":1323.04,"endTime":1330.4,"body":"credentialing in nursing education is not looked  "},{"startTime":1330.4,"endTime":1338.0,"body":"at the same way as it is as credentialing as like "},{"startTime":1330.4,"endTime":1338.0,"body":"a ped specialist or older adult specialists. And  "},{"startTime":1338.0,"endTime":1347.52,"body":"so that is one one thing to note here with that "},{"startTime":1338.0,"endTime":1347.52,"body":"having the standard expectations. We don't  "},{"startTime":1347.52,"endTime":1353.6,"body":"want it to become a barrier to people coming into "},{"startTime":1347.52,"endTime":1353.6,"body":"faculty roles because if it's if it's not standard  "},{"startTime":1353.6,"endTime":1359.2,"body":"as part of what everybody has to do and it's part "},{"startTime":1353.6,"endTime":1359.2,"body":"of what's infused into the culture of a college  "},{"startTime":1359.2,"endTime":1365.6,"body":"of nursing or school of nursing, I could see us "},{"startTime":1359.2,"endTime":1365.6,"body":"having some issues. You know, for example, in  "},{"startTime":1365.6,"endTime":1370.8,"body":"higher ed, there are some places that'll pay for "},{"startTime":1365.6,"endTime":1370.8,"body":"people to get their CNE and there's others that  "},{"startTime":1370.8,"endTime":1375.76,"body":"don't and they don't pay for any certifications "},{"startTime":1370.8,"endTime":1375.76,"body":"for their faculty because it's not a requirement  "},{"startTime":1375.76,"endTime":1382.8,"body":"to teach, right? So, that's one thing to note. "},{"startTime":1375.76,"endTime":1382.8,"body":"I think what we have to think about with kind of  "},{"startTime":1382.8,"endTime":1387.92,"body":"making this kind of standardized pro standardized "},{"startTime":1382.8,"endTime":1387.92,"body":"process is how are faculty being onboarded and  "},{"startTime":1387.92,"endTime":1395.6,"body":"how are we infusing again just I'm going to name "},{"startTime":1387.92,"endTime":1395.6,"body":"it learning theory into an onboarding program.  "},{"startTime":1395.6,"endTime":1401.44,"body":"So at least they're getting that to then "},{"startTime":1395.6,"endTime":1401.44,"body":"broaden out into more development as they go.  "},{"startTime":1402.64,"endTime":1412.0,"body":"question there add is that for new educators it's "},{"startTime":1402.64,"endTime":1412.0,"body":"a great learning tool right they're preparing  "},{"startTime":1412.0,"endTime":1418.72,"body":"for this new role it's  something that maybe "},{"startTime":1412.0,"endTime":1418.72,"body":"they want to invest in because they know they're  "},{"startTime":1418.72,"endTime":1424.8,"body":"going to use it the thing I question is well what "},{"startTime":1418.72,"endTime":1424.8,"body":"about our like mid-career faculty who've been here  "},{"startTime":1424.8,"endTime":1429.6,"body":"doing this for a while or the ones who are close "},{"startTime":1424.8,"endTime":1429.6,"body":"to retirement like how do you really standardize  "},{"startTime":1429.6,"endTime":1439.68,"body":"those expectations for those folks that are "},{"startTime":1429.6,"endTime":1439.68,"body":"realistic and doesn't I don't like offend their  "},{"startTime":1439.68,"endTime":1446.96,"body":"experience or their wisdom. So it's I think "},{"startTime":1439.68,"endTime":1446.96,"body":"it's a bigger broader question than just what  "},{"startTime":1446.96,"endTime":1451.92,"body":"can we do now? We really have to think about "},{"startTime":1446.96,"endTime":1451.92,"body":"all the pieces to the puzzle um to give that  "},{"startTime":1451.92,"endTime":1460.24,"body":"answer. Yeah. Yeah. And and if we're thinking "},{"startTime":1451.92,"endTime":1460.24,"body":"of nurse educators as having standardized"},{"startTime":1460.24,"endTime":1467.6,"body":"expected competencies as well uh which brings us "},{"startTime":1460.24,"endTime":1467.6,"body":"of course to the essence of the CNE certification  "},{"startTime":1467.6,"endTime":1476.0,"body":"where it's organized around the expectations "},{"startTime":1467.6,"endTime":1476.0,"body":"or competencies of the faculty but we can also  "},{"startTime":1476.0,"endTime":1483.2,"body":"think about but leveling of competencies right of "},{"startTime":1476.0,"endTime":1483.2,"body":"course the new or novice educator would would be  "},{"startTime":1483.2,"endTime":1491.36,"body":"at this level. Somebody who'd been teaching for 25 "},{"startTime":1483.2,"endTime":1491.36,"body":"years or more should be considered an expert. So  "},{"startTime":1491.36,"endTime":1499.68,"body":"it's it's still that novice to expert expectations "},{"startTime":1491.36,"endTime":1499.68,"body":"there within the frame of expected competencies  "},{"startTime":1499.68,"endTime":1510.72,"body":"and therefore think about other"},{"startTime":1499.68,"endTime":1510.72,"body":"professions even in nursing right it your  "},{"startTime":1510.72,"endTime":1517.92,"body":"competencies are expected to progress from being a "},{"startTime":1510.72,"endTime":1517.92,"body":"novice to expert. What about nurse educators then?  "},{"startTime":1517.92,"endTime":1526.48,"body":"Do we have that expectations for ourselves and and "},{"startTime":1517.92,"endTime":1526.48,"body":"what would be the measure like CNE is that really  "},{"startTime":1526.48,"endTime":1534.08,"body":"a measure of competency? And then in terms "},{"startTime":1526.48,"endTime":1534.08,"body":"of faculty development, continuing development,  "},{"startTime":1534.08,"endTime":1540.32,"body":"what do we have? And I like what you said in "},{"startTime":1534.08,"endTime":1540.32,"body":"terms of onboarding, what's that onboarding like?  "},{"startTime":1540.32,"endTime":1548.24,"body":"And then again standardization of onboarding for "},{"startTime":1540.32,"endTime":1548.24,"body":"faculty that's probably another podcast by itself.  "},{"startTime":1548.24,"endTime":1557.2,"body":"So but yeah very well but let me point"},{"startTime":1548.24,"endTime":1557.2,"body":"one more point out one more point from the article  "},{"startTime":1557.2,"endTime":1567.52,"body":"that you said is about what are the roles of of "},{"startTime":1557.2,"endTime":1567.52,"body":"states? Could they be significant if lack of a  "},{"startTime":1567.52,"endTime":1573.92,"body":"better word? What's their significance in helping "},{"startTime":1567.52,"endTime":1573.92,"body":"this standardization or do we really want that to  "},{"startTime":1573.92,"endTime":1581.36,"body":"go there right would be a good question as well. "},{"startTime":1573.92,"endTime":1581.36,"body":"Yeah, I think in terms of states they have the  "},{"startTime":1581.36,"endTime":1586.72,"body":"potential to be helpful. Like if we just "},{"startTime":1581.36,"endTime":1586.72,"body":"look at like continuing education in general  "},{"startTime":1586.72,"endTime":1594.96,"body":"from state to state if it's a requirement "},{"startTime":1586.72,"endTime":1594.96,"body":"for nurses I would hope that those who are  "},{"startTime":1594.96,"endTime":1599.52,"body":"doing those education credits are picking things "},{"startTime":1594.96,"endTime":1599.52,"body":"that are meaningful to them and useful in their  "},{"startTime":1599.52,"endTime":1604.64,"body":"development and so if somebody knows they're going "},{"startTime":1599.52,"endTime":1604.64,"body":"to be transitioning into education maybe that's  "},{"startTime":1604.64,"endTime":1611.2,"body":"the time and the place to say okay this is where "},{"startTime":1604.64,"endTime":1611.2,"body":"I'm going to do that additional preparation.  "},{"startTime":1611.2,"endTime":1616.56,"body":"However, not everyone's going to think that "},{"startTime":1611.2,"endTime":1616.56,"body":"way. Or it's more seen as a barrier. It's  "},{"startTime":1616.56,"endTime":1622.0,"body":"another thing I have to do. And so there's kind "},{"startTime":1616.56,"endTime":1622.0,"body":"of pros and cons to saying, \"Hey, let's do it this  "},{"startTime":1622.0,"endTime":1628.24,"body":"way.\" But that's just like a starting point. "},{"startTime":1622.0,"endTime":1628.24,"body":"At least that's kind of the way I see it,  "},{"startTime":1628.24,"endTime":1635.68,"body":"right? And we're always cognizant of the shortage "},{"startTime":1628.24,"endTime":1635.68,"body":"as well, right? So nurse workforce shortage,  "},{"startTime":1635.68,"endTime":1645.28,"body":"nursing faculty shortage, and where do we stay in "},{"startTime":1635.68,"endTime":1645.28,"body":"that in that to balance our expectations,  "},{"startTime":1645.28,"endTime":1653.2,"body":"wish future as nurse educators and then "},{"startTime":1645.28,"endTime":1653.2,"body":"of course the needs that were facing as well.  "},{"startTime":1653.2,"endTime":1661.2,"body":"So yeah, so the these are all very good points "},{"startTime":1653.2,"endTime":1661.2,"body":"and and highlights. And therefore as we kind of  "},{"startTime":1661.2,"endTime":1669.92,"body":"like try to close our conversation, I want to ask "},{"startTime":1661.2,"endTime":1669.92,"body":"both of you. So what are some of the nuggets  "},{"startTime":1669.92,"endTime":1679.04,"body":"or I would say lessons that you can share with us "},{"startTime":1669.92,"endTime":1679.04,"body":"and the nursing education community about all of  "},{"startTime":1679.04,"endTime":1687.04,"body":"these lessons that you have learned your research "},{"startTime":1679.04,"endTime":1687.04,"body":"on nursing education professional development  "},{"startTime":1687.04,"endTime":1695.6,"body":"or preparation of nurse educators. For me I "},{"startTime":1687.04,"endTime":1695.6,"body":"would say that that nugget is that if anyone's  "},{"startTime":1695.6,"endTime":1703.36,"body":"considering transitioning into nursing education "},{"startTime":1695.6,"endTime":1703.36,"body":"that your impact is potentially exponential. And  "},{"startTime":1703.36,"endTime":1707.84,"body":"so students are going to see that way, your "},{"startTime":1703.36,"endTime":1707.84,"body":"peers are going to see it that way. And so the  "},{"startTime":1707.84,"endTime":1713.04,"body":"more prepared you can be, and that's going to "},{"startTime":1707.84,"endTime":1713.04,"body":"look different for everybody, but what you can  "},{"startTime":1713.04,"endTime":1720.16,"body":"do to prepare yourself for that transition, but "},{"startTime":1713.04,"endTime":1720.16,"body":"then also that impact is really important and it  "},{"startTime":1720.16,"endTime":1728.56,"body":"doesn't go unnoticed. Yeah. And I'm hoping that "},{"startTime":1720.16,"endTime":1728.56,"body":"our administrators, our leaders are also  "},{"startTime":1728.56,"endTime":1737.52,"body":"listening as we speak. Right. Right. And who is "},{"startTime":1728.56,"endTime":1737.52,"body":"um here today? Amber, I was going to say I have  "},{"startTime":1737.52,"endTime":1742.48,"body":"a whole different lens on this and how we have to "},{"startTime":1737.52,"endTime":1742.48,"body":"think about it. And yes, you know, just a couple  "},{"startTime":1742.48,"endTime":1747.92,"body":"of things I want to end with. One, we need more "},{"startTime":1742.48,"endTime":1747.92,"body":"data to have some data informed decision making.  "},{"startTime":1747.92,"endTime":1754.08,"body":"And I know there's some research going on. I saw a "},{"startTime":1747.92,"endTime":1754.08,"body":"LinkedIn recruitment post of do you have your CE?  "},{"startTime":1754.08,"endTime":1760.24,"body":"We'd like to talk to you. And I think if we can "},{"startTime":1754.08,"endTime":1760.24,"body":"get some more data, correlational data between,  "},{"startTime":1760.24,"endTime":1764.4,"body":"you know, pedagogical preparation, whatever "},{"startTime":1760.24,"endTime":1764.4,"body":"that looks like, and student outcomes, that's  "},{"startTime":1764.4,"endTime":1770.64,"body":"one thing to help us work with policy within our "},{"startTime":1764.4,"endTime":1770.64,"body":"our institutions, but also policy at those state  "},{"startTime":1770.64,"endTime":1775.28,"body":"boards of nursing of of should there be something "},{"startTime":1770.64,"endTime":1775.28,"body":"standardized because here's what the data is  "},{"startTime":1775.28,"endTime":1780.24,"body":"showing and we might not see anything. You know, "},{"startTime":1775.28,"endTime":1780.24,"body":"that's the cool thing about research. You don't  "},{"startTime":1780.24,"endTime":1788.08,"body":"know until you start to gather this data to make "},{"startTime":1780.24,"endTime":1788.08,"body":"your decisions. And I would say then with  "},{"startTime":1788.08,"endTime":1793.44,"body":"that is falling back on the novice to expert that "},{"startTime":1788.08,"endTime":1793.44,"body":"you brought up, Raquel, is being intentional about  "},{"startTime":1793.44,"endTime":1799.68,"body":"how we onboard people into their faculty roles is "},{"startTime":1793.44,"endTime":1799.68,"body":"something I'm very aware of because when you are  "},{"startTime":1799.68,"endTime":1805.92,"body":"a novice in education, okay, expert in practice, "},{"startTime":1799.68,"endTime":1805.92,"body":"but I'm sorry, now you are novice again and it's  "},{"startTime":1805.92,"endTime":1812.4,"body":"really uncomfortable. What do we need to do first "},{"startTime":1805.92,"endTime":1812.4,"body":"to help building people in their experience? What  "},{"startTime":1812.4,"endTime":1816.72,"body":"do we do at that midpoint? So, I have a "},{"startTime":1812.4,"endTime":1816.72,"body":"a National Science Foundation grant and I'm  "},{"startTime":1816.72,"endTime":1822.4,"body":"finding that midpoint faculty are are the prime "},{"startTime":1816.72,"endTime":1822.4,"body":"group because they have enough experience to know  "},{"startTime":1822.4,"endTime":1828.16,"body":"what they're they're experiencing and seeing, but "},{"startTime":1822.4,"endTime":1828.16,"body":"they know they have still a lot of room to grow,  "},{"startTime":1828.16,"endTime":1832.4,"body":"right? And so, how do we think about that with "},{"startTime":1828.16,"endTime":1832.4,"body":"our nurse educators coming in and that novice to  "},{"startTime":1832.4,"endTime":1838.4,"body":"expert is the timing of the faculty development "},{"startTime":1832.4,"endTime":1838.4,"body":"and what we're doing at what point? And then as  "},{"startTime":1838.4,"endTime":1845.52,"body":"admin administrator, I was thinking as we've been "},{"startTime":1838.4,"endTime":1845.52,"body":"talking today, how are administrators weaving in  "},{"startTime":1845.52,"endTime":1854.16,"body":"competencies into their peer evaluations and "},{"startTime":1845.52,"endTime":1854.16,"body":"their annual evaluations and what do those look  "},{"startTime":1854.16,"endTime":1859.2,"body":"like across all of our nursing programs? I "},{"startTime":1854.16,"endTime":1859.2,"body":"would like to think there's some similarities,  "},{"startTime":1859.2,"endTime":1864.16,"body":"but I don't know. I haven't looked into this, but "},{"startTime":1859.2,"endTime":1864.16,"body":"that's another area of how are we leaving this  "},{"startTime":1864.16,"endTime":1870.88,"body":"in if we think it's important into our "},{"startTime":1864.16,"endTime":1870.88,"body":"evaluation processes to help people feel supported  "},{"startTime":1870.88,"endTime":1876.08,"body":"and you know want to grow. Like Kyla has said "},{"startTime":1870.88,"endTime":1876.08,"body":"a few times, this is a lot of times a personal  "},{"startTime":1876.08,"endTime":1881.76,"body":"endeavor that they want to do for themselves. And so how do we support and foster that through  "},{"startTime":1881.76,"endTime":1890.56,"body":"some of our evaluation processes, right? Like  "},{"startTime":1881.76,"endTime":1890.56,"body":"personal motivations, professional uh motivations  "},{"startTime":1890.56,"endTime":1898.16,"body":"definitely and so much more. And I know we "},{"startTime":1890.56,"endTime":1898.16,"body":"can go on talking about this because the this  "},{"startTime":1898.16,"endTime":1903.6,"body":"is a topic that I think that is close to our "},{"startTime":1898.16,"endTime":1903.6,"body":"hearts as educators because we're essentially  "},{"startTime":1903.6,"endTime":1911.68,"body":"talking about ourselves here and um therefore it's"},{"startTime":1903.6,"endTime":1911.68,"body":"hard to summarize what we've talked  "},{"startTime":1911.68,"endTime":1920.32,"body":"about because we've talked about so many areas of "},{"startTime":1911.68,"endTime":1920.32,"body":"educational preparation of the educator in  "},{"startTime":1920.32,"endTime":1929.52,"body":"nursing. But to end this conversation, I would "},{"startTime":1920.32,"endTime":1929.52,"body":"like to thank both of you for being here and  "},{"startTime":1929.52,"endTime":1937.36,"body":"and sharing your thoughts and expertise and "},{"startTime":1929.52,"endTime":1937.36,"body":"really also stimulating more thinking about  "},{"startTime":1937.36,"endTime":1946.08,"body":"what else do we need to talk about this very "},{"startTime":1937.36,"endTime":1946.08,"body":"topic also in the future. So thank you. Thank you.  "},{"startTime":1946.08,"endTime":1967.12,"body":"Thank you. All right. So that ends our episode "},{"startTime":1946.08,"endTime":1967.12,"body":"for today and we'll see you in our next episode."},{"startTime":1967.12,"endTime":1967.636,"body":"[Music]"}]}