{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":36.4,"endTime":42.32,"body":"Welcome to this episode of NLN's Nursing "},{"startTime":36.4,"endTime":42.32,"body":"Edge Unscripted. I'm Dr. Kellie Bryant"},{"startTime":42.32,"endTime":46.24,"body":"and I'm joined here by my co-host, "},{"startTime":42.32,"endTime":46.24,"body":"Dr. Raquel Bertiz from the National"},{"startTime":46.24,"endTime":58.64,"body":"League for Nursing. Today marks a monumental "},{"startTime":46.24,"endTime":58.64,"body":"milestone. This is our 150th podcast episode"},{"startTime":58.64,"endTime":63.6,"body":"and we could not think of a more fitting "},{"startTime":58.64,"endTime":63.6,"body":"guest to celebrate this moment than Dr. Suzie"},{"startTime":63.6,"endTime":71.6,"body":"Kardong-Edgren, an award-winning, internationally "},{"startTime":63.6,"endTime":71.6,"body":"recognized simulation scholar and educator."},{"startTime":71.6,"endTime":76.96,"body":"Not only has she done so many amazing things "},{"startTime":71.6,"endTime":76.96,"body":"when it comes to simulation nursing education,"},{"startTime":76.96,"endTime":82.32,"body":"but she's also opened the doors for many of us "},{"startTime":76.96,"endTime":82.32,"body":"as a wonderful mentor and really has created the"},{"startTime":82.32,"endTime":87.36,"body":"foundation of nursing simulation education. So, "},{"startTime":82.32,"endTime":87.36,"body":"just to give you a little bit of her bio because"},{"startTime":87.36,"endTime":92.48,"body":"it could be extensive, but this is the short "},{"startTime":87.36,"endTime":92.48,"body":"version. Dr. Kardong-Edgren has authored more"},{"startTime":92.48,"endTime":100.56,"body":"than 140 publications and served as a consultant "},{"startTime":92.48,"endTime":100.56,"body":"on the landmark NCSBN national simulation study,"},{"startTime":100.56,"endTime":106.08,"body":"which provided the evidence that up to 50% of "},{"startTime":100.56,"endTime":106.08,"body":"traditional clinical hours can be replaced with"},{"startTime":106.08,"endTime":111.76,"body":"high quality simulation. She's also served as the "},{"startTime":106.08,"endTime":111.76,"body":"editor-in-chief of Clinical Simulation in Nursing"},{"startTime":111.76,"endTime":118.0,"body":"for 10 years and has held numerous leadership "},{"startTime":111.76,"endTime":118.0,"body":"roles such as past president of INACSL and"},{"startTime":118.0,"endTime":123.52,"body":"chair of the research committee for Society for "},{"startTime":118.0,"endTime":123.52,"body":"Simulation and Healthcare. Currently she serves"},{"startTime":123.52,"endTime":129.84,"body":"as an associate professor at the MGH Institute of "},{"startTime":123.52,"endTime":129.84,"body":"Health Professions in Boston mentoring the next"},{"startTime":129.84,"endTime":139.68,"body":"generation of MS and PhD simulation researchers. "},{"startTime":129.84,"endTime":139.68,"body":"So welcome Dr. Suzie, thank you very much. And"},{"startTime":139.68,"endTime":151.2,"body":"like your 150th episode, I'm so delighted. I'm "},{"startTime":139.68,"endTime":151.2,"body":"about the same age. So I like it. I like it."},{"startTime":151.2,"endTime":156.8,"body":"So I had the privilege of starting with the first "},{"startTime":151.2,"endTime":156.8,"body":"question and mine's gonna be very broad. How did,"},{"startTime":156.8,"endTime":161.6,"body":"what first drew you into simulation? How did you "},{"startTime":156.8,"endTime":161.6,"body":"get started in simulation? Tell us that story."},{"startTime":161.6,"endTime":170.4,"body":"We had, we had a graduate program that got one of "},{"startTime":161.6,"endTime":170.4,"body":"the gigantic CAE Laerdal manikins when it looked"},{"startTime":170.4,"endTime":175.76,"body":"like Arnold Schwarzenegger. They did not have "},{"startTime":170.4,"endTime":175.76,"body":"time to learn how to use it and it sat in the"},{"startTime":175.76,"endTime":185.68,"body":"giant coffin-like box for several several months "},{"startTime":175.76,"endTime":185.68,"body":"and Mindy Anderson dug it out and said, \"I'm going"},{"startTime":185.68,"endTime":192.72,"body":"to learn how to work this thing.\" And we used it "},{"startTime":185.68,"endTime":192.72,"body":"in our assessment class and we wrote our first"},{"startTime":192.72,"endTime":200.8,"body":"assess our first scenarios but we didn't know what "},{"startTime":192.72,"endTime":200.8,"body":"we were doing and it turned out to work really"},{"startTime":200.8,"endTime":205.2,"body":"well and we realized there's more we can do with "},{"startTime":200.8,"endTime":205.2,"body":"this and then more scenarios started coming out."},{"startTime":205.2,"endTime":212.8,"body":"I think the first people were CAE with their giant "},{"startTime":205.2,"endTime":212.8,"body":"90 different scenarios that they had written and"},{"startTime":212.8,"endTime":218.4,"body":"they were about an hour and a half long a piece "},{"startTime":212.8,"endTime":218.4,"body":"if you think back that far. And they sold them,"},{"startTime":218.4,"endTime":223.36,"body":"They came with the manikins. They were beautiful. "},{"startTime":218.4,"endTime":223.36,"body":"But that was when we first started learning, oh,"},{"startTime":223.36,"endTime":227.52,"body":"there's a whole story that goes with this and a "},{"startTime":223.36,"endTime":227.52,"body":"way to teach with it. But we had no idea what we"},{"startTime":227.52,"endTime":232.48,"body":"were doing, right? I think we all started that "},{"startTime":227.52,"endTime":232.48,"body":"way. It all started probably with a manikin in"},{"startTime":232.48,"endTime":235.68,"body":"a box and nobody wanted to take it out of the box "},{"startTime":232.48,"endTime":235.68,"body":"because they were scared and didn't know what to"},{"startTime":235.68,"endTime":244.56,"body":"do with it. Absolutely. Yeah. So, it's almost like "},{"startTime":235.68,"endTime":244.56,"body":"accidental discovery of how well simulation works."},{"startTime":244.56,"endTime":254.72,"body":"And I think you've witnessed simulations "},{"startTime":244.56,"endTime":254.72,"body":"evolution right so yeah looking back what were"},{"startTime":254.72,"endTime":261.84,"body":"the most compelling milestones that you have seen "},{"startTime":254.72,"endTime":261.84,"body":"in the growth of simulation education. Thank you"},{"startTime":261.84,"endTime":268.16,"body":"so much for asking that question because as "},{"startTime":261.84,"endTime":268.16,"body":"I think about it, I think some of the big"},{"startTime":268.16,"endTime":274.96,"body":"things were, smart thing that happened is "},{"startTime":268.16,"endTime":274.96,"body":"Laerdal realized they're making manikins"},{"startTime":274.96,"endTime":279.68,"body":"and they asked came to Pam Jeffries and said, "},{"startTime":274.96,"endTime":279.68,"body":"well, why don't you talk about using this and"},{"startTime":279.68,"endTime":285.44,"body":"help us learn how to use this in nursing. And she "},{"startTime":279.68,"endTime":285.44,"body":"wisely she looked around she said,"},{"startTime":285.44,"endTime":291.52,"body":"there's nothing written about this. She did her "},{"startTime":285.44,"endTime":291.52,"body":"Jeffrey's Framework, which was the road map for the"},{"startTime":291.52,"endTime":298.48,"body":"rest of us to figure out, okay, how do you do this? "},{"startTime":291.52,"endTime":298.48,"body":"And then the next step really were the standards"},{"startTime":298.48,"endTime":304.0,"body":"and Kim Leighton was the president of INACSL "},{"startTime":298.48,"endTime":304.0,"body":"when she said we've got to have some standards."},{"startTime":304.0,"endTime":311.44,"body":"So that, I think, those were critical pieces and I "},{"startTime":304.0,"endTime":311.44,"body":"will note that it took until the second or third"},{"startTime":311.44,"endTime":317.28,"body":"issuance of the standards that we realized "},{"startTime":311.44,"endTime":317.28,"body":"pre-briefing was kind of important. But if you look"},{"startTime":317.28,"endTime":325.28,"body":"back at the DASH handbook and the DASH tool put "},{"startTime":317.28,"endTime":325.28,"body":"out by CMS they had pre-briefing in the very first"},{"startTime":325.28,"endTime":331.92,"body":"iteration of the DASH. So they were way ahead "},{"startTime":325.28,"endTime":331.92,"body":"of the game. They had already figured that out,"},{"startTime":331.92,"endTime":339.04,"body":"but it took us all a while to catch up, a while to "},{"startTime":331.92,"endTime":339.04,"body":"catch up with them. So, I think that was critical."},{"startTime":339.04,"endTime":347.52,"body":"And then I think when we started attending, when "},{"startTime":339.04,"endTime":347.52,"body":"nurses started attending IMSH in force and that"},{"startTime":347.52,"endTime":354.08,"body":"that was really the first place where IPE got "},{"startTime":347.52,"endTime":354.08,"body":"to be a big thing. And when you attend IMSH,"},{"startTime":354.08,"endTime":361.04,"body":"we've gone through the different parts of having "},{"startTime":354.08,"endTime":361.04,"body":"RN after your name or doctor after your name,"},{"startTime":361.04,"endTime":365.92,"body":"physician after your name, and now we've gone to "},{"startTime":361.04,"endTime":365.92,"body":"there's nothing after your name. And I was there"},{"startTime":365.92,"endTime":371.52,"body":"when the poor lady doctors when there weren't "},{"startTime":365.92,"endTime":371.52,"body":"that many of them around and I sat down next to"},{"startTime":371.52,"endTime":375.44,"body":"them and I'm just babbling away and they thought "},{"startTime":371.52,"endTime":375.44,"body":"I was a physician. The minute they figured out I"},{"startTime":375.44,"endTime":383.44,"body":"was a nurse, it was like I had cooties. Oh no. No. "},{"startTime":375.44,"endTime":383.44,"body":"So, it was really funny because they had so much"},{"startTime":383.44,"endTime":389.68,"body":"trouble establishing them their own professional "},{"startTime":383.44,"endTime":389.68,"body":"identity as women physicians. I completely get it."},{"startTime":389.68,"endTime":393.76,"body":"But I started laughing when what happened because "},{"startTime":389.68,"endTime":393.76,"body":"I thought, \"Oh, I know what you're going through."},{"startTime":393.76,"endTime":399.44,"body":"I'm sorry. I tainted you.\" So, but we're not... "},{"startTime":393.76,"endTime":399.44,"body":"It's not that way now. At least I don't feel it"},{"startTime":399.44,"endTime":404.16,"body":"anymore. I think that's it's pretty cool. So, I "},{"startTime":399.44,"endTime":404.16,"body":"think all of those things really contributed to"},{"startTime":404.16,"endTime":411.44,"body":"how we got to where we are today. When we began, "},{"startTime":404.16,"endTime":411.44,"body":"you know, using simulation, it wasn't widely"},{"startTime":411.44,"endTime":417.44,"body":"accepted. I know when I started, what 17 years "},{"startTime":411.44,"endTime":417.44,"body":"ago, it was a little bit taboo. And I'm sure you"},{"startTime":417.44,"endTime":422.24,"body":"probably faced the same when you were starting "},{"startTime":417.44,"endTime":422.24,"body":"your journey in simulation. What challenges did"},{"startTime":422.24,"endTime":427.28,"body":"you face convincing others of the value of "},{"startTime":422.24,"endTime":427.28,"body":"simulation? And how did you overcome those"},{"startTime":427.28,"endTime":436.32,"body":"challenges? I will say I had one of the biggest "},{"startTime":427.28,"endTime":436.32,"body":"screw-ups of my entire career at a place which"},{"startTime":436.32,"endTime":442.4,"body":"shall remain nameless. I could I could maybe feel "},{"startTime":436.32,"endTime":442.4,"body":"myself blushing because I'm going to tell tell a"},{"startTime":442.4,"endTime":449.6,"body":"bad one on me. I did not understand diffusion of "},{"startTime":442.4,"endTime":449.6,"body":"innovation. Or you read it but you don't realize"},{"startTime":449.6,"endTime":457.04,"body":"this is when it this is when you do it. I screwed "},{"startTime":449.6,"endTime":457.04,"body":"it up so badly and I also can say I somewhat fault"},{"startTime":457.04,"endTime":463.28,"body":"my mentors because they did not prepare me for "},{"startTime":457.04,"endTime":463.28,"body":"this. I was almost like the sacrificial lamb. I"},{"startTime":463.28,"endTime":471.52,"body":"got sacrificed really badly. Having experienced "},{"startTime":463.28,"endTime":471.52,"body":"that, I had to get a whole group of people on"},{"startTime":471.52,"endTime":476.56,"body":"board to use simulation because we' taken whole "},{"startTime":471.52,"endTime":476.56,"body":"classrooms out of the building. We gotten a huge"},{"startTime":476.56,"endTime":484.16,"body":"grant. We had 20 Laerdal manikins stacked up like "},{"startTime":476.56,"endTime":484.16,"body":"cordwood and we had to use them. So the powers"},{"startTime":484.16,"endTime":489.36,"body":"that be said, \"Okay, Suzie, your job is to go "},{"startTime":484.16,"endTime":489.36,"body":"out and tell the faculty.\" I did everything wrong"},{"startTime":489.36,"endTime":494.96,"body":"there is to do wrong. And what I should have done "},{"startTime":489.36,"endTime":494.96,"body":"is read the diffusion of innovation and believe it"},{"startTime":494.96,"endTime":501.76,"body":"and go out and talk to people individually before "},{"startTime":494.96,"endTime":501.76,"body":"it was ever going to come to be and get them on,"},{"startTime":501.76,"endTime":505.68,"body":"get them ready for what was coming, whether they "},{"startTime":501.76,"endTime":505.68,"body":"were going to get on board or not, because we were"},{"startTime":505.68,"endTime":515.6,"body":"going. That's not what I did. I screwed up so "},{"startTime":505.68,"endTime":515.6,"body":"badly that when I had an opportunity move, I did"},{"startTime":515.6,"endTime":521.36,"body":"and said, \"I will never be forgotten for this. I "},{"startTime":515.6,"endTime":521.36,"body":"will always be remembered that I was the one who"},{"startTime":521.36,"endTime":527.84,"body":"screwed this up so badly.\" When I got to a new "},{"startTime":521.36,"endTime":527.84,"body":"place, the story had completely changed and they"},{"startTime":527.84,"endTime":533.12,"body":"were brilliant because they hired me because I was "},{"startTime":527.84,"endTime":533.12,"body":"into sim. They didn't know what it was and they"},{"startTime":533.12,"endTime":539.52,"body":"weren't doing it and that was fine. But the first "},{"startTime":533.12,"endTime":539.52,"body":"person to come and talk to me said, \"I don't know"},{"startTime":539.52,"endTime":546.88,"body":"why you're here and you're trying to take my job "},{"startTime":539.52,"endTime":546.88,"body":"with this plastic dummy.\" And I was I was shocked"},{"startTime":546.88,"endTime":552.72,"body":"and taken aback and I said, \"Actually, I'm trying "},{"startTime":546.88,"endTime":552.72,"body":"to help you improve your job. Let me show you what"},{"startTime":552.72,"endTime":558.72,"body":"it can do.\" So, I started with one person showing "},{"startTime":552.72,"endTime":558.72,"body":"her what we could do. And I said, why don't we do"},{"startTime":558.72,"endTime":565.84,"body":"a research study and see if using this is actually "},{"startTime":558.72,"endTime":565.84,"body":"better than what we're normally doing now? And so"},{"startTime":565.84,"endTime":574.8,"body":"I had learned a good lesson. And I will say that "},{"startTime":565.84,"endTime":574.8,"body":"there is a game out there free online called the"},{"startTime":574.8,"endTime":582.56,"body":"diffusion simulation game. Anybody can play it. "},{"startTime":574.8,"endTime":582.56,"body":"And I found it again by accident literally 3"},{"startTime":582.56,"endTime":588.88,"body":"weeks ago as I'm writing a course that will use "},{"startTime":582.56,"endTime":588.88,"body":"it in the course. And it's got all those things"},{"startTime":588.88,"endTime":593.52,"body":"you really should do when you have to persuade "},{"startTime":588.88,"endTime":593.52,"body":"people of whatever the next big change is going"},{"startTime":593.52,"endTime":599.12,"body":"to be. If it's VR, if it's I don't know what I "},{"startTime":593.52,"endTime":599.12,"body":"don't know, the holiday, I don't know what the next"},{"startTime":599.12,"endTime":604.72,"body":"thing we will all be trying to get people to do "},{"startTime":599.12,"endTime":604.72,"body":"is. But it is a great game and they give you all"},{"startTime":604.72,"endTime":609.84,"body":"kinds of hints and help. But, anybody's going to "},{"startTime":604.72,"endTime":609.84,"body":"have to make a big change, I suggest you look at"},{"startTime":609.84,"endTime":617.52,"body":"that game and play it and remember what you learn "},{"startTime":609.84,"endTime":617.52,"body":"because it will help you. We're going to make sure"},{"startTime":617.52,"endTime":621.44,"body":"we add that link. And and Suzie, trust me, we've "},{"startTime":617.52,"endTime":621.44,"body":"all been through those trials and tribulations,"},{"startTime":621.44,"endTime":629.84,"body":"but I think we needed to go through them in order "},{"startTime":621.44,"endTime":629.84,"body":"to get to where we are today. It was brutal. And"},{"startTime":629.84,"endTime":638.8,"body":"I learned I learned I'm trainable. Yep. which "},{"startTime":629.84,"endTime":638.8,"body":"is of course something that we can relate to."},{"startTime":638.8,"endTime":648.48,"body":"I can definitely relate to almost like pushing "},{"startTime":638.8,"endTime":648.48,"body":"so hard that it's really difficult but I am"},{"startTime":648.48,"endTime":658.56,"body":"kind of like interested in what you said about "},{"startTime":648.48,"endTime":658.56,"body":"mentoring and that how do we prepare our next"},{"startTime":658.56,"endTime":667.84,"body":"generation of of innovators if you will so that "},{"startTime":658.56,"endTime":667.84,"body":"they would have a better experience than than us."},{"startTime":667.84,"endTime":674.48,"body":"I will tell you that I'm wallowing around in the "},{"startTime":667.84,"endTime":674.48,"body":"AACN Essentials right now because I'm writing"},{"startTime":674.48,"endTime":680.08,"body":"these courses for a program that uses AACN and "},{"startTime":674.48,"endTime":680.08,"body":"the assumption seems to be that everybody's"},{"startTime":680.08,"endTime":687.28,"body":"going to be a leader and I'm here to tell you no, "},{"startTime":680.08,"endTime":687.28,"body":"they're not. We have a lot more managers because"},{"startTime":687.28,"endTime":694.56,"body":"it's easier to be a manager and go along with with "},{"startTime":687.28,"endTime":694.56,"body":"everybody and say the emperor is fully"},{"startTime":694.56,"endTime":701.28,"body":"clothed. This is beautiful. It is a lot harder to "},{"startTime":694.56,"endTime":701.28,"body":"look at things and say, \"No, this isn't working.\""},{"startTime":701.28,"endTime":708.08,"body":"Or, \"The emperor has no clothes.\" And I come "},{"startTime":701.28,"endTime":708.08,"body":"from a family, it's just a genetic trait, if the"},{"startTime":708.08,"endTime":714.88,"body":"emperor has no clothes on, we're going to say it. "},{"startTime":708.08,"endTime":714.88,"body":"And that is a gift and it is a curse. Learning how"},{"startTime":714.88,"endTime":722.08,"body":"to say the emperor has no clothes on in a way that "},{"startTime":714.88,"endTime":722.08,"body":"people can hear it is the key. And so innovators,"},{"startTime":722.08,"endTime":728.64,"body":"we probably we all find each other. We have a lot "},{"startTime":722.08,"endTime":728.64,"body":"of people that are in master's programs. We have some"},{"startTime":728.64,"endTime":734.88,"body":"programs that have simulation in the master's program "},{"startTime":728.64,"endTime":734.88,"body":"now. But somehow those of us who are going to do"},{"startTime":734.88,"endTime":743.52,"body":"well in sim find each other. And I will say that "},{"startTime":734.88,"endTime":743.52,"body":"one of my gifts is identifying talent. And I can"},{"startTime":743.52,"endTime":749.04,"body":"walk into a room and just observe people and I can "},{"startTime":743.52,"endTime":749.04,"body":"a lot of times pick out who the talent's going to"},{"startTime":749.04,"endTime":754.48,"body":"be. Walk up and start talking to them. I've got a "},{"startTime":749.04,"endTime":754.48,"body":"good beat on that. But there are plenty of people"},{"startTime":754.48,"endTime":761.76,"body":"who want to be, but for some reason are just not "},{"startTime":754.48,"endTime":761.76,"body":"going to be or they and when people tell me I'm"},{"startTime":761.76,"endTime":767.36,"body":"a mover and a shaker I'm thinking no because "},{"startTime":761.76,"endTime":767.36,"body":"that's been my experience and when you tell"},{"startTime":767.36,"endTime":777.6,"body":"me that you're not. You show by your action "},{"startTime":767.36,"endTime":777.6,"body":"not by what you say. So, I think when we find"},{"startTime":777.6,"endTime":782.08,"body":"people who are going to be innovative, we need to "},{"startTime":777.6,"endTime":782.08,"body":"help nurture them. And if they're in a place that"},{"startTime":782.08,"endTime":789.44,"body":"they're getting squashed, I tend to tell them, you "},{"startTime":782.08,"endTime":789.44,"body":"need to leave and go someplace where what you have"},{"startTime":789.44,"endTime":797.92,"body":"to offer will be appreciated. Some people can pack "},{"startTime":789.44,"endTime":797.92,"body":"up and move easily and other people can't. So,"},{"startTime":797.92,"endTime":805.84,"body":"what do we tell those people that are stuck? And "},{"startTime":797.92,"endTime":805.84,"body":"I'm going to say, do not bend. Stick with your,"},{"startTime":805.84,"endTime":813.2,"body":"stick the course, keep saying your truth, keep "},{"startTime":805.84,"endTime":813.2,"body":"innovating, and eventually somebody's going to"},{"startTime":813.2,"endTime":819.12,"body":"recognize it. It may be a turnover in leadership. "},{"startTime":813.2,"endTime":819.12,"body":"It may be a publication that gets you so much"},{"startTime":819.12,"endTime":826.64,"body":"notoriety that people can't say you're wrong. But "},{"startTime":819.12,"endTime":826.64,"body":"stick with your guns. And I think that that's why"},{"startTime":826.64,"endTime":831.92,"body":"I've been successful and that I've only done what "},{"startTime":826.64,"endTime":831.92,"body":"I want to do and what I like to do. People told"},{"startTime":831.92,"endTime":838.32,"body":"me when I first started at a school that shall "},{"startTime":831.92,"endTime":838.32,"body":"remain nameless, you said you do sim, but you're"},{"startTime":838.32,"endTime":842.96,"body":"not going to. You're going to do these things that "},{"startTime":838.32,"endTime":842.96,"body":"you get funding, R1 funding for, and it was all"},{"startTime":842.96,"endTime":849.28,"body":"kinds of stuff in nursing that I just, it just "},{"startTime":842.96,"endTime":849.28,"body":"does not float my boat. I'm not interested. I care"},{"startTime":849.28,"endTime":856.72,"body":"about education and producing good educators. And "},{"startTime":849.28,"endTime":856.72,"body":"I said, \"No, I'm not doing that.\" And they've"},{"startTime":856.72,"endTime":861.52,"body":"never been told no before. You could tell by the "},{"startTime":856.72,"endTime":861.52,"body":"look on their face. What? She said, \"No.\" And"},{"startTime":861.52,"endTime":868.4,"body":"I said, \"No, I don't like that. I'm going to do "},{"startTime":861.52,"endTime":868.4,"body":"this. This is my passion and this is what I will"},{"startTime":868.4,"endTime":877.36,"body":"do.\" And I'll tell you what, it hasn't turned out "},{"startTime":868.4,"endTime":877.36,"body":"badly for me. If people know you know yourself,"},{"startTime":877.36,"endTime":881.36,"body":"they're going to know what they've got and they're "},{"startTime":877.36,"endTime":881.36,"body":"going to either value that or they're going to"},{"startTime":881.36,"endTime":887.52,"body":"force you out one way or the other. But I've been "},{"startTime":881.36,"endTime":887.52,"body":"very lucky and been able to do what I want to do"},{"startTime":887.52,"endTime":895.84,"body":"and it's turned out okay. and I think it will for "},{"startTime":887.52,"endTime":895.84,"body":"you too. Wow, that is some pearls of wisdom there."},{"startTime":895.84,"endTime":901.44,"body":"Thank you so much for that, Suzie. I want to "},{"startTime":895.84,"endTime":901.44,"body":"switch gears a little bit and talk some about your"},{"startTime":901.44,"endTime":906.0,"body":"research and one of my favorite articles which "},{"startTime":901.44,"endTime":906.0,"body":"I think is pivotal. People still talk about your"},{"startTime":906.0,"endTime":911.68,"body":"article is the article on evidence versus eminence "},{"startTime":906.0,"endTime":911.68,"body":"clinical hours of nursing education where you kind"},{"startTime":911.68,"endTime":918.56,"body":"of just challenge the way that we're conducting "},{"startTime":911.68,"endTime":918.56,"body":"traditional clinical and trying to get people to"},{"startTime":918.56,"endTime":924.88,"body":"not focus so much on the hours but the the quality "},{"startTime":918.56,"endTime":924.88,"body":"which I think is the same in simulation. So if"},{"startTime":924.88,"endTime":931.52,"body":"you could redesign clinical education from the "},{"startTime":924.88,"endTime":931.52,"body":"ground up what core principles would guide it?"},{"startTime":931.52,"endTime":938.24,"body":"Well, we just have to academic system as we "},{"startTime":931.52,"endTime":938.24,"body":"know it. Everybody's struggling with this"},{"startTime":938.24,"endTime":944.48,"body":"because brick and mortar in this semester is what "},{"startTime":938.24,"endTime":944.48,"body":"drives everything. If we were really if we were"},{"startTime":944.48,"endTime":950.08,"body":"a forward-thinking business, we would get rid of "},{"startTime":944.48,"endTime":950.08,"body":"that structure as some of the for-profit schools"},{"startTime":950.08,"endTime":958.0,"body":"have that are competency based and say if I've "},{"startTime":950.08,"endTime":958.0,"body":"got somebody that I can get through all clinicals,"},{"startTime":958.0,"endTime":966.32,"body":"all of the the clinical skills that I want them "},{"startTime":958.0,"endTime":966.32,"body":"to have in simulation in 3 weeks and then them"},{"startTime":966.32,"endTime":970.88,"body":"put into clinical with preceptors where they "},{"startTime":966.32,"endTime":970.88,"body":"can demonstrate in 3 weeks everything I need"},{"startTime":970.88,"endTime":977.84,"body":"for them to do. We got their money for the course. "},{"startTime":970.88,"endTime":977.84,"body":"They've completed the competencies. They could now"},{"startTime":977.84,"endTime":986.88,"body":"move on. If I was queen, that is what I would "},{"startTime":977.84,"endTime":986.88,"body":"do with the academic system today. This the"},{"startTime":986.88,"endTime":993.28,"body":"we keep talking about competency based. We're "},{"startTime":986.88,"endTime":993.28,"body":"not there yet. And it just breaks my heart when I"},{"startTime":993.28,"endTime":1000.08,"body":"look online at both the NLN and the AACN websites "},{"startTime":993.28,"endTime":1000.08,"body":"and they're still talking about grading, grading,"},{"startTime":1000.08,"endTime":1007.6,"body":"grading, grading. And I'm thinking, let it go, "},{"startTime":1000.08,"endTime":1007.6,"body":"girl. You're either competent or you're not. And"},{"startTime":1007.6,"endTime":1014.32,"body":"grades, I think we hang on to grades because "},{"startTime":1007.6,"endTime":1014.32,"body":"it's easy to control. competency and seeing"},{"startTime":1014.32,"endTime":1020.88,"body":"somebody do something that demonstrates I can "},{"startTime":1014.32,"endTime":1020.88,"body":"critically think and I can apply what I've seen"},{"startTime":1020.88,"endTime":1028.56,"body":"is much harder to do. That is a lot to unpack."},{"startTime":1020.88,"endTime":1028.56,"body":"So I was just listening to what you're"},{"startTime":1028.56,"endTime":1036.48,"body":"saying in terms of what we need to do in nursing "},{"startTime":1028.56,"endTime":1036.48,"body":"education to really move us forward to maybe if we"},{"startTime":1036.48,"endTime":1045.2,"body":"say concept-based education. So be it, right? "},{"startTime":1036.48,"endTime":1045.2,"body":"But we're not there yet. So, and I know that"},{"startTime":1045.2,"endTime":1052.24,"body":"many of us are looking at simulations and "},{"startTime":1045.2,"endTime":1052.24,"body":"how simulations can truly move us there. So,"},{"startTime":1052.24,"endTime":1060.24,"body":"what are your thoughts on that? I'm so glad that "},{"startTime":1052.24,"endTime":1060.24,"body":"simulation came about. I'm so glad we're getting"},{"startTime":1060.24,"endTime":1069.2,"body":"so much better at it. I am shocked that there are "},{"startTime":1060.24,"endTime":1069.2,"body":"education masters out there that still do not have"},{"startTime":1069.2,"endTime":1076.48,"body":"freestanding simulation classes. It's been about "},{"startTime":1069.2,"endTime":1076.48,"body":"20 years and we used to say the diffusion cycle"},{"startTime":1076.48,"endTime":1082.8,"body":"was really about 17 years and I heard somebody "},{"startTime":1076.48,"endTime":1082.8,"body":"say no it was actually dropped to 15 years and 3"},{"startTime":1082.8,"endTime":1092.96,"body":"months or something like that. Lovely, but not for "},{"startTime":1082.8,"endTime":1092.96,"body":"simulation. So I am still devastated, appalled,"},{"startTime":1092.96,"endTime":1099.28,"body":"can't believe that there are education master's "},{"startTime":1092.96,"endTime":1099.28,"body":"programs that don't have freestanding simulation"},{"startTime":1099.28,"endTime":1106.08,"body":"courses in them and that we still teach the same "},{"startTime":1099.28,"endTime":1106.08,"body":"old stuff we've always taught in those courses."},{"startTime":1106.08,"endTime":1111.36,"body":"And I think it's because we've got still a lot "},{"startTime":1106.08,"endTime":1111.36,"body":"of people and I will say it, they need to die"},{"startTime":1111.36,"endTime":1118.96,"body":"or retire before things are going to change. "},{"startTime":1111.36,"endTime":1118.96,"body":"And either way, let's go team because we have"},{"startTime":1118.96,"endTime":1125.84,"body":"a lot to offer the health care industry, which is "},{"startTime":1118.96,"endTime":1125.84,"body":"on its last legs as far as I'm concerned. It's"},{"startTime":1125.84,"endTime":1133.2,"body":"falling apart and we're trying to give resilience "},{"startTime":1125.84,"endTime":1133.2,"body":"to nurses to work in a system that's broken. No,"},{"startTime":1133.2,"endTime":1139.2,"body":"we need to stop worrying about that. We need to "},{"startTime":1133.2,"endTime":1139.2,"body":"fix the system and nursing needs his final seat"},{"startTime":1139.2,"endTime":1147.28,"body":"at the table, not the keep wishing, keep "},{"startTime":1139.2,"endTime":1147.28,"body":"wishing. I would really I also would love"},{"startTime":1147.28,"endTime":1155.28,"body":"to get in there that, as I'm looking at, I don't "},{"startTime":1147.28,"endTime":1155.28,"body":"know, I don't, I'm not that familiar with the NLN"},{"startTime":1155.28,"endTime":1160.96,"body":"competencies but the AACN has really gone social "},{"startTime":1155.28,"endTime":1160.96,"body":"determinants of health as has the government and"},{"startTime":1160.96,"endTime":1168.32,"body":"nursing embraced that and I want to say that "},{"startTime":1160.96,"endTime":1168.32,"body":"I worked with somebody years years ago who"},{"startTime":1168.32,"endTime":1174.661,"body":"talked about where did the nursing go? Where did "},{"startTime":1168.32,"endTime":1174.661,"body":"the nursing go as I was talking about simulation."},{"startTime":1174.661,"endTime":1180.88,"body":"And I thought, what is she talking old woman? "},{"startTime":1174.661,"endTime":1180.88,"body":"What are you saying? Now I know what she was"},{"startTime":1180.88,"endTime":1185.12,"body":"talking about. And what we're talking about "},{"startTime":1180.88,"endTime":1185.12,"body":"is the human caring. I don't know if you know the"},{"startTime":1185.12,"endTime":1194.56,"body":"human caring theory by Watson. But I think that "},{"startTime":1185.12,"endTime":1194.56,"body":"what nursing used to be and was and we had those"},{"startTime":1194.56,"endTime":1201.04,"body":"things of cultural cultural awareness, "},{"startTime":1194.56,"endTime":1201.04,"body":"spiritual awareness for our patients,"},{"startTime":1201.04,"endTime":1205.92,"body":"a couple others. It doesn't matter. Those "},{"startTime":1201.04,"endTime":1205.92,"body":"are the two that really stand out in my mind."},{"startTime":1205.92,"endTime":1212.32,"body":"those words that nursing embraced have been co I "},{"startTime":1205.92,"endTime":1212.32,"body":"think they've been co-opted by social determinants"},{"startTime":1212.32,"endTime":1219.12,"body":"of health and I really don't like that and "},{"startTime":1212.32,"endTime":1219.12,"body":"now it's become politicized, which does not"},{"startTime":1219.12,"endTime":1228.4,"body":"help us and I think I would ask us to move back "},{"startTime":1219.12,"endTime":1228.4,"body":"to our cultural caring our spiritual caring for"},{"startTime":1228.4,"endTime":1233.36,"body":"our patients. And spiritual, if you really look at "},{"startTime":1228.4,"endTime":1233.36,"body":"social determinants of health is basically kind"},{"startTime":1233.36,"endTime":1241.28,"body":"of wiped out. I'm not a fan and I would I would say "},{"startTime":1233.36,"endTime":1241.28,"body":"nursing please think this. Okay. As we move forward"},{"startTime":1241.28,"endTime":1248.56,"body":"as now that old woman who said, \"where's the nursing "},{"startTime":1241.28,"endTime":1248.56,"body":"care.\" I'm going to say, \"Where's the nursing care?\" The"},{"startTime":1248.56,"endTime":1256.96,"body":"care. Care. So we need to bring it back. I see that "},{"startTime":1248.56,"endTime":1256.96,"body":"we only have a couple minutes left and there's so"},{"startTime":1256.96,"endTime":1263.92,"body":"many more questions but I'm going to end on this "},{"startTime":1256.96,"endTime":1263.92,"body":"one. When you look at your journey, your legacy in"},{"startTime":1263.92,"endTime":1271.12,"body":"nursing. What has been the most rewarding "},{"startTime":1263.92,"endTime":1271.12,"body":"part of that journey? I think probably the"},{"startTime":1271.12,"endTime":1278.72,"body":"first time I was in sim and I saw the student who "},{"startTime":1271.12,"endTime":1278.72,"body":"finally got it and had that aha moment. It doesn't"},{"startTime":1278.72,"endTime":1284.16,"body":"get old. I think I remember the first time it "},{"startTime":1278.72,"endTime":1284.16,"body":"happened and I was on the other side of the glass."},{"startTime":1284.16,"endTime":1288.88,"body":"Because I'd seen them do a lot of things that I "},{"startTime":1284.16,"endTime":1288.88,"body":"was on the other side of the glass up against the"},{"startTime":1288.88,"endTime":1296.0,"body":"window going, \"What are you doing?\" And then "},{"startTime":1288.88,"endTime":1296.0,"body":"I saw them kind of figure it out and go, \"Ah,"},{"startTime":1296.0,"endTime":1300.72,"body":"I'm going to do this.\" And I thought, \"Oh, this "},{"startTime":1296.0,"endTime":1300.72,"body":"is wonderful. This is wonderful.\" I learned what"},{"startTime":1300.72,"endTime":1305.68,"body":"was probably happening when I wasn't in the room "},{"startTime":1300.72,"endTime":1305.68,"body":"at clinical with people. God knows what they were"},{"startTime":1305.68,"endTime":1312.08,"body":"doing. So when I could see them do it in sim first "},{"startTime":1305.68,"endTime":1312.08,"body":"and kind of can steer them in the right direction,"},{"startTime":1312.08,"endTime":1318.8,"body":"I think we're all a lot better off. Patients, "},{"startTime":1312.08,"endTime":1318.8,"body":"educators, and the learners. Yeah, I think we all"},{"startTime":1318.8,"endTime":1323.36,"body":"have those stories too where, you know, students "},{"startTime":1318.8,"endTime":1323.36,"body":"don't always appreciate simulation when they're"},{"startTime":1323.36,"endTime":1327.92,"body":"in the moment, when they're in school. But I love "},{"startTime":1323.36,"endTime":1327.92,"body":"when, you know, for example, you're on LinkedIn"},{"startTime":1327.92,"endTime":1333.28,"body":"and you get this random message from somebody who "},{"startTime":1327.92,"endTime":1333.28,"body":"graduated years ago. And I remember like I really"},{"startTime":1333.28,"endTime":1339.04,"body":"hated sim when I was in school. But I have to tell "},{"startTime":1333.28,"endTime":1339.04,"body":"you this story about how sim has helped me in my"},{"startTime":1339.04,"endTime":1344.08,"body":"role as a nursing educator. If it wasn't for that "},{"startTime":1339.04,"endTime":1344.08,"body":"diabetic DKA scenario, I would have not been able"},{"startTime":1344.08,"endTime":1349.04,"body":"to take care of x -patient I just had last week. "},{"startTime":1344.08,"endTime":1349.04,"body":"So yeah, I agree with you. Those aha moments"},{"startTime":1349.04,"endTime":1353.6,"body":"or when they the students finally realize this "},{"startTime":1349.04,"endTime":1353.6,"body":"really is making an impact. I am really learning"},{"startTime":1353.6,"endTime":1360.56,"body":"and this is an effective way of education for "},{"startTime":1353.6,"endTime":1360.56,"body":"our students. So thank you for that. And that"},{"startTime":1360.56,"endTime":1367.36,"body":"is longitudinal evidence, qualitative evidence "},{"startTime":1360.56,"endTime":1367.36,"body":"that we have not necessarily collected. And it"},{"startTime":1367.36,"endTime":1372.0,"body":"is something that maybe is waiting there for a "},{"startTime":1367.36,"endTime":1372.0,"body":"research study to be done. And it's going to be"},{"startTime":1372.0,"endTime":1379.12,"body":"a really weird looking IRB, but it if you think "},{"startTime":1372.0,"endTime":1379.12,"body":"you've got something to say that you simulation"},{"startTime":1379.12,"endTime":1383.6,"body":"helped you in something that happened to you, "},{"startTime":1379.12,"endTime":1383.6,"body":"an actual clinical, you know, tell us about"},{"startTime":1383.6,"endTime":1390.32,"body":"it. That might be a really great study. Sounds "},{"startTime":1383.6,"endTime":1390.32,"body":"like a next study for you, Dr. Suzie maybe. Oh no,"},{"startTime":1390.32,"endTime":1401.181,"body":"no. Not for me. Yes we can definitely "},{"startTime":1390.32,"endTime":1401.181,"body":"relate to those internal and external rewards of"},{"startTime":1401.181,"endTime":1412.88,"body":"the outcomes our student outcomes and we will "},{"startTime":1401.181,"endTime":1412.88,"body":"always be grateful to you Dr. Suzie, as one of our"},{"startTime":1412.88,"endTime":1420.56,"body":"trailblazers, like I've said earlier, you"},{"startTime":1412.88,"endTime":1420.56,"body":"had a remarkable career. It really exemplifies"},{"startTime":1420.56,"endTime":1426.72,"body":"the power of innovation. I would say you're "},{"startTime":1420.56,"endTime":1426.72,"body":"an innovator. I think I saw that in your"},{"startTime":1426.72,"endTime":1434.32,"body":"profile just like, oh, she's an innovator. "},{"startTime":1426.72,"endTime":1434.32,"body":"And yeah and of course the evidence"},{"startTime":1434.32,"endTime":1441.52,"body":"and the mentorship that you had given us in "},{"startTime":1434.32,"endTime":1441.52,"body":"nursing education. I for one can personally attest"},{"startTime":1441.52,"endTime":1450.88,"body":"to that mentorship. I am Dr. Suzie's student. I'm "},{"startTime":1441.52,"endTime":1450.88,"body":"a proud graduate now finally. She was my student."},{"startTime":1450.88,"endTime":1462.08,"body":"She was my student IHP. And yeah and we did "},{"startTime":1450.88,"endTime":1462.08,"body":"talk a lot about how are we educating our future"},{"startTime":1462.08,"endTime":1470.48,"body":"educators in simulation and yes, that's really"},{"startTime":1462.08,"endTime":1470.48,"body":"a great learning experience for me and yeah."},{"startTime":1470.48,"endTime":1478.88,"body":"So you're an inspiration. So thank you for obliging "},{"startTime":1470.48,"endTime":1478.88,"body":"us to be here and thank you. It was an honor to be"},{"startTime":1478.88,"endTime":1487.52,"body":"asked and this will be a memorable 150th episode "},{"startTime":1478.88,"endTime":1487.52,"body":"for us. Absolutely. And I also want to thank you,"},{"startTime":1487.52,"endTime":1491.92,"body":"Suzie. Not only you're a trailblazer, but you are "},{"startTime":1487.52,"endTime":1491.92,"body":"a mentor and cheerleader for a lot of us starting"},{"startTime":1491.92,"endTime":1496.8,"body":"out in our simulation careers. And you've opened "},{"startTime":1491.92,"endTime":1496.8,"body":"doors. You've connected people. And I just want"},{"startTime":1496.8,"endTime":1500.96,"body":"to say I appreciate you so much. And thank you "},{"startTime":1496.8,"endTime":1500.96,"body":"for everything that you've done when it comes"},{"startTime":1500.96,"endTime":1507.116,"body":"to not only simulation, but nursing education. "},{"startTime":1500.96,"endTime":1507.116,"body":"Thank you. Thank you so much. You're so kind."}]}