Protecting Communities in an Oil Boom - Kayley Shoup

Kayley Shoup is an activist with the Citizens Caring for the Future, an environmental group that is affiliated with New Mexico Interfaith Power & Light in Carlsbad, New Mexico. When she moved back to her hometown, she became alarmed at the increase of pollution from the nearby expanded oil and gas fields of the Permian Basin, and is determined to do something about it. Recently, a NASA satellite from its EMIT program, which is designed to measure and characterize mineral dust sources to find new minerals, found a massive methane leak near the Carlsbad gas and oil fields. Kayley describes how her organization works to inform their community using data from a wide range of sources, including NASA and other non-profits such as Earthworks.

Transcript

Greg Williams: 0:10

Thanks for joining us for another episode of climate money watchdog where we investigate and report on how federal dollars are being spent on mitigating climate change and protecting the environment. We are a private, nonpartisan nonprofit organization that does not accept advertisers or sponsors. So we can only do this work with your support. Please visit us at climate money watchdog.org To learn more about us and consider making a donation. Tonight's guest is Kayley Shoup, an activist with citizens caring for the future, and an environmental group that is affiliated with New Mexico interfaith Power and Light in Carlsbad, New Mexico. When she moved back to her hometown, she became alarmed at the increase of pollution from the nearby expanded oil and gas fields, and is determined to do something about it. Recently, a NASA satellite from its aemet program, which we'll learn more about later is which is designed to measure and characterize minimal dusts, I'm sorry, mineral dust sources to find new minerals, found a massive methane leak there near the Carlsbad gas and oil fields. Dina, would you like to say more about why we've asked Kaylee to join us tonight?

Dina Rasor: 1:25

Yes, we're going to what we're going to try to do is is, you know, I could have called up the head of JPL and NASA, this is a big breakthrough, they're able to detect methane leaks with the same satellite, even though that's not its main goal. And they're gonna start publishing the data. And I could have got called up the guy from JPL and he would have gone and we couldn't nerd it out on the on the satellite. But what I was really more interested in when I read the article about it was that Kaley had made some comments about it. And I thought, boy, this could be very powerful. This and other maybe even their own technology, infrared technology and whatever, could be very powerful in detecting methane leaks. Because this the, the amount of sensors they put up usually are not enough. And they always had Unnai. And on and on. So we wanted to have Kaylee on today. Because she is an activist with a group that lives there. It's her hometown. And so we're going to start with trying as much as we can to get the macro and the micro, you know, something macro happens like methane all the sudden the satellite can say, See methane leaks, and the micro is what are these communities? How can the Muse do it? And I want her to tell her story about her, but about that, and what they're trying to do. So that's anybody who's out there listening, who's an activist who feels that they have a story to tell about their local struggle. We like to highlight these people, because just about any reporter can go get a comment from NASA. So anyway, that's my two cents on this and why I think that this is the important issue to talk about, and how activists can find out that there's a lot of tools they can use against these big companies.

Greg Williams: 3:23

So welcome, Kaley. What did you tell us about your group citizens caring about the future?

Kayley Shoup: 3:28

Sure. Well, first of all, I want to say thank you so much for having me and for giving me this platform, I really appreciate it. And to tell our story, the story of my community, my own story. Um, so a little bit about citizens caring for the future. First, I'll put into context of where we are. So I'm in Carlsbad, New Mexico, Southeast New Mexico on the border of West Texas, and a place called the Permian Basin. The Permian Basin is the most active oilfield in the country, if not the world. And it spans West Texas, that Southeast New Mexico, and this oil boom really started around 2016 2017, when they realized that there was a lot of untapped resources that they could get to with fracking and horizontal drilling. And ever since our communities have, you know, fundamentally really changed and this oil field has been going strong, ever since it has some of the lowest breakeven cost in the country. And it has the most untapped resources. I want to save any oil basin in the world. So we continue to see, you know, new production every day. And this is just something that seems to be growing at a time when we probably need to be at least at the very least, stopping new production and really ideally, winding down the oil and gas industry to an extent.

Greg Williams: 4:48

But you've got a great video about the Permian Basin on your website, and we're gonna have a link to that along with the podcast.

Kayley Shoup: 4:54

Perfect. So that video is so handy and informative and I'm really glad that you guys are going to include that link because it really gives a good outline that's much more specific than what I just stated. But I did just want to give a little bit of contact context about where citizens caring for the future is. Citizens caring for the future, as you mentioned, is a small grassroots environmental advocacy group in Southeast New Mexico. The way it got started is interfaith Power and Light, which is a national organization that brings together faith leaders from all different faiths to work on climate change issues. They have a New Mexico El Paso chapter of interfaith Power and Light. And I work closely with the director of that organization, her name is Sister, Joan Brown, and she would organize and we still organized to this day, but years ago, she would organize what she would call faith retreats, and she would bring faith leaders from northern New Mexico. And if you don't know much about New Mexico politics, there's the north side. And then there's the well, there's a whole state that's very democratic, and then there's a southeast corner that is very, very conservative, and like a little slice of Texas, in New Mexico. And so we're very siphoned off very separated. And she would bring faith leaders from northern New Mexico to come to this area, to tour the oil field to really see the devastation that is going on what is happening to our land, we have, you know, 56,000 wells in the state of New Mexico with the majority of those being in the Permian Basin, and people just really can't fathom it until you come see it. And she would bring folks down to do that. And then to also meet with local people and hear their stories, hear their concerns. And there were a few faith leaders from Carlsbad that were taking part in one of these panels. And this was in the fall of 2019. And they got to talking and they were talking about their concerns. And they all had the same concerns, you know, the land, and what was happening to it, the traffic, cost of living health issues. And they listened to one another and said, you know, what, we're all of us are concerned about this, no one is speaking out about this. And we think we really need to, and so they stepped up and they created a leadership team, and with the help of interfaith Power and Light, and then also earthworks, if you've ever heard of them, they're a DC based nonprofit that does thermography, for the most part, catching leaks in oil and gas sites with the help of those two groups. They help secure funding and really get citizens caring for the future off of the ground and late 2019. So that's a little bit about how we got started. I actually

Greg Williams: 7:38

learned about earthworks from an earthworks technician, somebody who operates drones and infrared photography on a cab ride to an airport about 10 years ago. Oh my gosh, how cool. Yeah, it's very bright now.

Dina Rasor: 7:55

Now we kind of like to hear about your story, because very interesting, because you grew up there, but you left and then came and went out, had this various adventurism career and came back. And so tell us, tell us a little bit about your story. And why you when you came back, you just, you know, we're drawn to do this.

Kayley Shoup: 8:14

Yeah. So I was born and raised in Carlsbad, you know, classic small town, there was a little bit of oil and gas, but nothing like we have now. You know, it was it was an industry, but it was always booming and busting fracking wasn't here. And I left home in 2010. And I moved back right at the beginning of 2018. So that was in, I would say, our production levels are as high as they were in 2018. But we have more infrastructure in place now. So you don't quite feel it in the community as much as you did in 2018. We had an influx of about 20,000 people at that point in time. And as soon as I moved back, I noticed all sorts of changes. Things like all of a sudden getting across town, which used to take 10 minutes could take up to 30 minutes, because your four way stops backed up for miles was semis. There was daily car crashes on our main highway down here. Because these folks, you know, they don't have regulation and there can be on the job for all hours, people falling asleep at the wheel. And these daily fatal car wrecks no one was reporting on them because you know, it's transient folks. They don't live in the area. So you would just hear about it. through word of mouth. I noticed the cost of living was asked Oh,

Greg Williams: 9:31

go I just want to confirm you said daily fatal car accidents.

Kayley Shoup: 9:36

Yes, daily fatal car crashes, really at that point in time, especially our roads were not ready to take on that kind of traffic, and a bunch of two lane highways. And it was just really sad. There was a saying it was called stay alive on to 85. And that was the main that is one of the main corridors and that problem has been remedied to an extent but it was very bad. out in 2018 and 2019, we had astronomical cost of living to rent an apartment at that point was about the same prices in New York City or Los Angeles apartment. And they would create new apartments. And before anyone can rent one Chevron, or Exxon would rent out the whole apartment building, we had teacher shortages. Because keep in mind, we're dealing with an influx of 20,000 people, these people come with children, they come with families. So our schools have all these new influx of kids couldn't hire teachers, because teachers couldn't find the place to live, the cost of living was too high. And just all these systemic issues that I noticed and observed in my day to day life. But within about a year of being back, I began having friends, family members, acquaintances that I know being dying, diagnosed with rare and aggressive cancers, a friend of mine, in his early 20s, got diagnosed with a rare and aggressive cancer, my own mother at the age of 50, without any family history was diagnosed with ovarian cancer, I would hear about countless children with leukemia, different cancers. And at that point, I got to thinking to myself, you know, it's so odd to know this many people dealing with these rare illnesses at relatively young ages. And they all live within this close area. And so I started to think, well, there has to be some kind of environmental factor at play. And this was in the fall of 2019. And I didn't know where to turn, I never been involved in climate activism, environmental justice, work, nothing like that. And so I just kind of looked up, studies tried to find what I could kind of came up with some stuff, but for the most part empty handed and then one day, I saw an ad on Facebook for a community meeting that the New Mexico Environment Department was putting on. And some legislation had just been passed called the produce water act, where we're actually planning to clean produced water in New Mexico, which is something most hydrologist say you cannot safely do. We plan to clean that water, though and use it for crops and so on and so forth. So there was an informational meeting hosted by the environment department about this program. And I went to that meeting, it was a bunch of legislators and industry folk, for the most part.

Greg Williams: 12:23

Again, to clarify what was the source of the water that you were going to be cleaning,

Kayley Shoup: 12:28

and produce water. So that is what comes back up after fracking, the fluid that they put down, it comes back up. And so not only does it have the chemicals that are in the actual water that they frack with that includes undisclosed chemicals, PF A's are very abundant and produce water. But when it comes back up, it can be radioactive because of the rock formation that it has been through somewhere like Pennsylvania, their particular basin is very radioactive, so they're produced water comes with a very high load of radiation. Our formations are not quite as radioactive the rock is not as dangerous, but it is still radioactive to an extent. So it's a very dangerous wastewater from oil and gas, New Mexico plants to clean it and use that four crops we have Mexico State University has a consortium that is working on cleaning this water. The consortium is funded by Exxon. So you kind of see the different issues there. But I went to this meeting, and it's legislators and industry folks, for the most part, and there was a little family there was a school night, and it was later getting into like eight o'clock. And they brought their two young kids. And they stood up and they said we have water trucks dumping produced water on our land. We don't know what to do. We call 911. They say there's nothing they can do. And that is now outlawed in New Mexico, but at the time, it wasn't. And they basically had the New Mexico Environment Department tell them how there's not much of anything we can do. And that just was heartbreaking to me. But then it led into a conversation of the state of enforcement in New Mexico. And I just blindly trusted that, you know, our environment department. EPA was protecting us i It was scary to see everything going on around but I had a very false sense of security. That's the day I learned that that was false. And I lived very scared. As I mentioned, we have 56,000 wells in New Mexico. The New Mexico Environment Department has four air inspectors for the entire state oil conservation division, the other group that is responsible for monitoring that they have funding for 14 people they do not employ 14 people because it is very hard to hire and compete with what the oil industry is paying. So I left that day, absolutely terrified. And then COVID happened and life kind of stood still for a while and in late 2021 US citizens caring for the futures leadership net Members, he got in touch with me. He found me on Facebook. And he said, Would you like to meet with me and Natalie Ebby issue was a thermographer with earthworks at the time, she's no longer with the group. He said she's going to be here, we're going to be looking at different oil and gas sides through a FLIR video camera, which is the thermography video camera where you can see the methane emissions. I said, Oh my gosh, yes, I would love to do that. So I went and met these two people that I had never met before on the side of the highway. And they said, real quick, we're going to go to this family's house that had a produce water spill across from their land. And I've actually just read their story. And I remember thinking at the time, oh, my gosh, I can't believe there's people speaking about this. And they have a platform to do it. Because if you come from this area, we are the only environmental advocacy group in the whole of the Permian Basin. And people don't really speak out because it's a very conservative area. It's very raw raw oil and gas. And it can be dangerous because of kind of how extreme politics has become nowadays. And so I got to meet this family, their names, Penny and de Coyne. And they had a produce water line burst across from their house in January of 2020. And it showered their home with radioactive waste, and contaminated waste and long story short, they ended up having to put all of their animals down due to exposure, and they ended up settling with the company and moving on. But that day, I got to meet them and hear more about their story. And I learned about citizens caring for the future, and that it existed. And they were looking for a community organizer. And I said, You know what, I think this is something I could do. And so it was very organically that I came into all of this and through a real concern for the community.

Dina Rasor: 16:59

Okay, so you talk about all these problems, and it probably felt overwhelming at the time. And I also know, when you would read when I read your stuff, or brought up there's a problem too, that people are afraid they're going to lose their jobs, you know, because that's when you win the oil and gas is obviously the largest employer, right. And so as a result, you get blacklisted. It's not like you leave a company now and then the other companies won't hire you and whatever. What is your what is? What are your goals? What you know, I mean, the problem I've seen with a lot of local activism is they see so much that they're sort of half frozen, what where do we start? So where? What are your goals on the mitigating the effects of the local oil and gas fields? The future of it? What are you looking for, and I will talk later about transition there, just environmental justice transition, which is a big, big thing. But right now, when you starting you and your group, what are you? Where do you pick your targets? How do you pick your targets? And what are your goals? What do you think are your realistic goals?

Kayley Shoup: 18:14

Um, so I would say citizens caring for the future started out really passionate about regulation, getting good regulation and making sure that regulation is enforced, we still think it's very important to have regulation, obviously, but the state of enforcement is something that we have realized, you know, actual enforcement action is not taken, you can have some of the best oil and gas methane rules in the world or in the country. And if they're not enforced, at the end of the day, you still have the emissions, you're still breathing in the air. And so, as I said, we still, we still advocate for strong regulation, but enforcement, we understand that regulation can only go so far in slowing down what we're seeing in the Permian. So a goal for us is, especially in New Mexico, specifically, the Environment Department and the World Conservation division, they are chronically underfunded by our legislature, despite the fact that we have, you know, huge surpluses of money from the oil and gas industry here in New Mexico. And so we're very passionate about advocating that they get more funding so that they're better able to do their job. And then in terms of EPA, federal action, I don't know if you heard the EPA was looking at declaring the Permian Basin and non attainment zone based on high ozone levels, and this would be West Texas and New Mexico. Texas has virtually no regulation. And so it's very important that there is more regulation for New Mexico, folks.

Greg Williams: 19:52

I'm sorry, I just missed the term. You said the EPA wanted to declare New Mexico some kind of zone.

Kayley Shoup: 19:58

Yes, a non attainment zone. So, that is if you have a certain level, a certain number of high ozone days that you are consumed can be declared a non attainment zone. And if you are declared a non attainment zone, then all of these kind of new regulations come down on that area that they then the state environment departments would have to enforce. So, a lot of your major cities like Los Angeles nonattainment zone, but you can move in and out of that if it gets corrected, you can move in and out of it. So they were pushing to have the Permian Basin declared a non attainment zone based on high ozone levels in New Mexico, because just for reference, we are in the largest, most active oilfield in the country. And in Texas, they do not monitor ozone whatsoever. So in New Mexico, we have two air monitors in the area, the whole of the Permian Basin. And it is based off of that data, but they were going to do a non attainment zone. And the Biden administration recently told them to hold off on that. And so now they are holding off and putting it on the backburner and not no longer declaring us a non attainment zone as of now. So suddenly, we're pushing is trying to find a way to expedite that once again, because it's so necessary.

Dina Rasor: 21:14

Did that happen? Because of the fear of the Ukrainian gas situation? Did it happen around that time, because that's when I found a lot of this falling by the wayside. It's like, okay, we were gonna try to be good about fossil fuel. But hey, you're just gonna run out of gas, and oil, but they didn't, because the Russia was gonna cut them off. And I'm just wondering, because I just, I don't see why they're backtracking when they have the power.

Kayley Shoup: 21:44

So it's interesting, they actually started to look at the non attainment thing as an option after the Ukraine war started, I do think that has something to do with it. Because of course, we're exporting a lot of our gas, we're exporting a lot of that to Europe. And it's useful to just be able to do that. But the Permian also, I think, is unique in the fact that people from here are not really speaking up, they're not saying we're concerned, there's really no pushback when the federal government goes and does something like this and decides to slow it down. And it's kind of, you know, if you're on an administration viewpoint, if you're able to have oil and gas, make the money from it, while also saying, Hey, I'm a Climate Champion. And so in the case of New Mexico, our governor, I'm a Climate Champion, and I have these really strong regulations, I'm doing all of these great things, I'm not enforcing it, my NGO, none of this is being enforced. But I have all this on paper, I can still profit from the oil and gas industry, and no one in the Permian is speaking up about the fact that, in reality, nothing has changed. I think that also, that's more micro on a macro level, the national level, I think, that same paradigm exist. And the Permian Basin, as I mentioned, lowest breakeven cost and highest amount of untapped resources, this area's gotta keep going until the last oil and gas wells shut down. And I think there's a real awareness of that, and the federal government.

Greg Williams: 23:16

So I just wanted to clarify the notion of lowest breakeven cost is important because there are petroleum deposits in all kinds of places all over the world, but some of them are very, very expensive to, to operate in, like the Canadian tar sands are a great example of a very dirty, expensive, difficult place to extract petroleum. And so if you have petroleum reserves, and you want to derive revenue from that, it's important to do broadcast, the idea that it can be done very inexpensively. And the more regulations that you put on, you know, the more you tax operations in order to improve the roads, or build new schools, or you know, all of the things that would be required to support that level of economic activity, all of those raise the the breakeven cost, and so there's a disincentive for government to to impose those costs because they're at the same time trying to attract this economic activity.

Dina Rasor: 24:24

Yeah, and, and one of the things I, you know, what I found is that I had not heard this word, until I started really looking into this and it's kind of shocking, but already heard it from the northern New Mexico group. There is they call them sacrifice zones. And it's, it's just stunningly crude. Not crude oil, but crude, because when you think about it, they're basically like saying, we're going to sacrifice the environment here. And all the people Will that live on it? You know, then and all the reservation Indian reservations, too bad. And then all the oil and gas workers but so it they basically have just written this off, they call it a super emitter to them they as another one, but I just wondered about part of the problem, of course, is the culture and the fear of losing your job and that kind of stuff. But what is what is what do people say? I mean, there must be oil workers and their families that are getting cancer, because a lot of people are getting killed. And what do they say about the fact that they're destroying where they live for financial reasons. I know, there was a big, you know, in Pennsylvania, that was a huge thing when fracking came out, because some people were like, oh, man, I'm gonna make money on my farm, I haven't made money on my farm for years. And other people are like, you're not doing that, because it's gonna leak, get the water table leak over into mind. And so there was always that stuff is still going on. And I'm just wondering, I'm wondering is, what would it take for people to be able to speak up because, or, you know, even be whistleblowers, or a silent whistleblowers and contact people like me who work with whistleblowers, to get this out? So that you can, unless there starts to be a public pressure, it's very hard to change, isn't it? Yeah,

Kayley Shoup: 26:22

100%, it's very hard to change without that push. And I think people, you know, they know that their health is at risk, they see what's happening to the land, but they don't, they don't have another option, you know, there's not another job for them to go to, and there's nothing else for them to do, as of now. Now, in the future, there might be something else. But I think that's kind of where people where they see it as it's this runaway train. And I will say, in terms of the Permian, it is very hard to, you know, find the will to fight against all of this in the Permian, because we have the largest corporation, some of the most profitable profit, profitable corporations on the planet, in our communities, you know, working with our local government, working with our county, working with our city, giving to our local schools, doing all these things to keep, you know, good standing in the community. And, and that's just as production keeps going, and going and going. And it's affected by you know, geopolitics, there's things happening in other countries, there's a war happening. And because of that, production continues here. So I think it's really important for people to speak up. But I will say, in a place like the Permian, I think there's only so far that it can go without, you know, real action from people in leadership positions. In terms of New Mexico, we have a lot of oil and gas site on oil and gas, oil and gas sights on public lands. We've caught on the Biden administration to for no new leasing on federal lands, that's something they've yet to do. So until we have folks stepping in putting a stop to what we can put a stop to. There's only so far that I feel that things can go and a New Mexico to Texas has a very diversified economy, a very strong economy with a lot of different industries that helping to fund the state of New Mexico gets the majority of its funding from oil and gas. And so there is a real hesitancy to do anything that could harm that source of funding that source of income. And so we have a real you no problem and a real opportunity to diversify our economy and make sure that this is something that folks can step away from can speak out against but um, the Permian is, there's a lot of levers in the Permian that are geopolitical, and it's a worldwide issue.

Dina Rasor: 28:57

Okay, so that kind of that really segues very well into what we're talking about now is because if you go around and you see people got more cancer rates and stuff, Oh, they got a bad diet, or, you know, they smoke and you know, there's always that nonsense that goes on. And also, it's just individuals hard to prove. But if, if you're able to, you know, start let's say, NASA really does put up this database and you really can you can sit there and get download the pictures and then overlay the wells, you know, like they did and point of the well that is just, you know, that's empirical evidence is hard to disprove. They're going to course say like they did with this other one, the first one they found there was all on our well, you know, we don't think so and blah, blah, blah. And they've got all the PR and everything else, but enough of enough of that persistent empirical mapping of finding methane because it's a kind of a twofer. It's dangerous for your health, and it's dangerous to the health of The planet. So you've, you know, so you've got the people who are worried about environment, the environment being destroyed and being sick. And they also weren't. And then people who were worried about, you know, climate change. And so what, what, what how did you find out? And whatever about the program? Did you find out from the reporter that you were quoted from? Or did you know about it? And what do you what do you guys think you're going to do with this big possible satellite in the sky? type of imaging Do you think that'll make may help you start to make your case?

Kayley Shoup: 30:36

Yeah, if I remember correctly, the reporter didn't tell me and I was very excited, because as you said, um, empirical evidence is huge. And that's something that we don't have a lot of in the Permian monitoring. And that's, you know, showing people what's happening, they can see pictures, they can see measurements of what is happening. So I found it very, very exciting, that that's something that's now an option. It's definitely like a satellite that can see, you know, large swaths of land and stuff like that, I think it's a great tool for local community members, if they, you know, see something near their home or something like that, and want to check to see if it's on the database, I think that's a really exciting tool, because it is so hard without any of the equipment that you need to prove that something's going on. So you could have a sight by your house, and maybe you could smell it, you could know something's wrong, but a lot of the time, the environment department or something like that is gonna blow you off, because you don't have the evidence. And people can't afford $100,000 camera, you know, to go look at this.

Dina Rasor: 31:45

So So you would be great, if you're new, they take a series of pictures, and it shows the area that there's a big methane leak, and they can show the wind roses, where the plumes are going, and you walk around those neighborhoods and say, did you know you know how dangerous methane is? It's so dangerous that now they don't want to use gas stoves, because it gives cause asthma? Yeah. Do you know that this is this cloud, because it's invisible? You know, it's not like, it's not like the smoke that in California, here we see from fire, fires, we see it, we smell what we taste it. And so with that, that could be a tool that you can use and say this is real. This is a NASA satellite and Veloz NASA, no one's gonna say NASA is lying. And then that kind of thing. And here it is. And is that going to be useful? And also, we talked about how expensive the camera equipment and in stuff like that, but is there a are you guys thinking like, like an earthworks situation where local communities could either through foundations or possibly even through the federal government, get grants to buy that kind of equipment? And to do that kind of monitoring?

Kayley Shoup: 32:59

Yeah, so to address like, your first question, I think it's definitely useful. And being from NASA, too, because I'm with you, people will take what NASA says seriously, I think it's definitely useful to say, look, you know, this is happening in your, in your backyard. Here's the proof of it. I don't know, if agencies will then take the action to enforce upon these polluters, you know, to enforce fines, to make them clean it up. I know, the NASA thing, nothing has been done on that yet. And they're actually still having trouble pinpointing what company it is. I think it could be a great tool, if our agencies actually then take enforcement action, the EPA has done flyovers of our area for years. And you know, they'll find like 20 Super emitting sites, and it will be in litigation for about three years. And I believe last time this happened, like two out of 19, polluters actually got fined. And it's like miniscule fines. So I think it's really useful to show to people in the local community. But I also struggle, because when you're in the local community, and you learn about these things, it's absolutely terrifying. And that, you know, you have all this oil and gas infrastructure around you that you know, is harming your health, these huge companies that have huge bottom lines or have shareholders, some of the biggest companies in the world, you know, this is happening, how do you take them on and just, it can be quite overwhelming. And if you're enforcement agencies, the environmental agencies aren't doing their jobs. It kind of feel makes you feel like you're in a very hard place and like you said, you get paralyzed. And so we're always constantly trying to tow that line, figure out how to actually help people. One thing that we're doing currently, is we have an air purifier program, and folks that live within a half mile radius of an oil and gas site can reach out to us and get a clinically proven Arabic You're a fire for their home because this people need it, they need help. Now in order to not get sick. Something else is a priority for us and the state, we would like to see a statewide setback in New Mexico. Right now there is no statewide standard, we want to make sure that these places are at least 3200 feet away from schools and homes. So at the NASA thing, as a tool for something like setback show into legislators, you know, this is happening, this is how this harm is invaluable, and really, really exciting that we now have those tools.

Dina Rasor: 35:33

But then the other way to go is, I know this from years of fighting the Pentagon, you know, you you're just beating your head against the wall with the officials because they don't want to take on the Pentagon and say they're commies and you know, people say the commies and all this kind of stuff. But what about you know, one of the things I worked a lot on it was bringing this information to the press, and getting community people to talk to the press, even if it's anonymously. Is it hard to get reporters down there in care you? Are you in sort of an isolated area where it's hard to get people to come down there. And but if you had a whole database of this kind of pollution, and you know, you could walk the reporters around and say, you know, you're standing in it right now, kind of thing, do you think and I'm on a more national scale, because I found that that really rattles local politicians and national politicians. It's kind of the Erin Brockovich thing. You've finally you know, they litigated it, but obviously, it helped that there was publicity. And you know, once, once it gets there sort of a tipping point, they they're scared to do it scared to do it. The politicians don't want to get in trouble and everything, but then they finally realize this is getting embarrassing. And, you know, and same with the the people who were supposed to be enforcing the rules. Is there? Is there a lack of reporting down in your area? Do you think? Um,

Kayley Shoup: 37:04

I think there was, and I think it's getting a lot better. In the state, we definitely have a lot of coverage. And at our local paper here in Carlsbad, we have a great reporter that is on this beat, and constantly doing work. And also on the state level, we have some really great journalists that are doing wonderful work now are they it's hard for them to get down here. Sometimes they have definitely visited. But they're always you know, reaching out wanting to get a perspective from frontline groups. And we have some national we could do more, though.

Greg Williams: 37:39

So one thing that I know it was a big surprise to me, is a mechanism for going after polluters that I don't think Dina and I had ever heard of or considered. We're both familiar with something called key tam or false claims. Suits where you say, private, corporate corporation or individual is defrauding the government. And you bring this allegation to the government and if the government chooses to pursue it. And if they succeed in recovering funds from that, from the person perpetrating the fraud, the person who brought it to their attention gets a small percentage of that. But if the government even declines to to further investigate and prosecute the case, the individual can then do so on their own. Now, Dina, and I learned about this when we were studying the way, private companies would often claim that weapons performed better than they actually do, you know, submarines that are launched without the ability to fire torpedoes and things like that. But this other guests named Poppy Alexander, who was with us back in July, described a technique where you, you look at a polluter that may be making ESG claims, you know, environmental, social, and governance claims. And if you can, if you can prove that those claims are false, but even partially false, you can then take that case to the Securities and Exchange Commission. And the idea is that the SEC security Securities and Exchange Commission is responsible for making sure that the private shareholders are not being defrauded. And so suddenly, you know, you can, you can demonstrate that a significant part of a company's market capitalization comes from their ESG claims, and if you can, if you can prove that they're fraudulent, you can recover, you know, in some cases, billions of dollars. And so, I encourage you and any of our listeners to go back and listen to that episode with with poppy Alexander

Dina Rasor: 40:00

It's Poppy Alexander for from Constantine cannon. And yeah, this is really a big thing. We were like, Oh, wow, because I've worked, I helped get the the key tam law passed back in 1986. And I've been and I spent 1520 years of my of my career working on it was able to return in the usual way, show him that they aren't doing the job, or they're breaking the contract and all that kind of stuff. And you know, my business partner and I at the time we we helped to return 200 220 million I've been 200 million back to the Treasury. I always say that's like one day of toilet paper in the Pentagon though. But But what I really What really surprised me with her, and by the way, I have worked with that law firm. So anybody who has wants to contact me I have, I can come and and do you what you're doing and you sign a contract. And this is really important. There's all these environmental things you have to do. So the hard thing is to try to prove Oh, this thing hurt this environmental thing. And this and they bring in all their experts and say it's not and you know, and you go back. And it's it's that long, drawn out legal thing where you know, it's almost like a medical case where you have the one doctor says this, and another doctor says that and experts and on and on. But what she was telling us is that with the SEC thing, all you got to do is show that all those clauses that are put in federal contracts, or state contracts, that they have environmental things they have to do, everybody has to do whether you're making cars, or you're or you know, it doesn't have to do that you're what you're making cars wrecks of environment. It's your your process. Are you following all the the rules and regulations, environmental laws. So you don't have to prove the pollution fraud, you just have to prove they're not doing the environmental things that they have promised to do to get the money and federal contracts. And I don't think New Mexico has a state law like that, like California does. But it's with the SEC, it's a it's a it's a sec whistleblower program. And I was like when she was telling me that even though we had talked to him before the buckets is kind of sitting up saying, Oh, my God, this is one of the ways that so you get you get any lawyer or anybody you're working with, pour through their contracts, and you find out that they're supposed to have this kind of mitigation, when they do this kind of thing. And they're just letting it go down the drain or whatever. And you should and you can show not you know, it's hard to show air pollution. But you can show take pictures, everything else. Oh, well, according to the EPA. In your contract, you're supposed to do this, and you have not. And you reported that you did to your stockholders, you're in trouble. And with a good lawyer, you know, and it's a lot faster than

Kayley Shoup: 43:06

it sounds like,

Dina Rasor: 43:07

yeah, and the point is, you don't have to prove you don't have to prove the pollution, all you have to do is prove that they're not enforcing the environmental laws. Yeah, every contract has environmental laws. So you're looking at an environmental problem you're getting away from, you're worried that you can't prove that problem, all you have to do is prove they're not doing environmental laws, and the SEC will go after, and they really care if the SEC goes after him. That scares me. That scares me.

Greg Williams: 43:34

Yeah, so I like to be very, very careful when I give anything that sounds remotely like legal advice. My recollection is that we're talking about two different mechanisms. One is where a company sells something, you know, maybe school lunches or tablecloths, you know, could be just about anything. And that in their contract includes standard clauses that require them to follow certain laws and regulations. And if they don't, and if you can prove that they don't, then you can recover the entire value of the school lunches or the tablecloth, and in fact, up to three times that amount. So that's one mechanism. The other mechanism, which is even more powerful, is simply demonstrating that they have not made good on their ESG claims, their environment, social justice and governance claims. In that case, you can potentially recover three times the value of any gain in their market capitalization and you know, the total value of their stock. And so, you know, these are two very powerful mechanisms, you know, both in terms of the amount of money at stake and in terms of the opportunity to prove fraud without having to prove harm based on the

Kayley Shoup: 44:54

the pollution Yeah, which can be

Greg Williams: 44:57

absolutely do not take my word or my understanding

Kayley Shoup: 45:00

Well, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna go look into it, that's what's gonna happen.

Dina Rasor: 45:05

Now what we can, what we can do is in on, this goes out to any app, any activists and stuff. This is a new theory, it's a new theory and a new way to go after them. I happen to know, some of the top partners in that law firm, I've actually consulted for them in the past. And so it's a different set of law. It's some it's a law I haven't actually worked on. But if anybody wants to anybody wants to contact us at climate money, watchdog.org. And, you know, our call, call us or, you know, Greg has a whole thing on how to call and everything, so they can't trace and all that kind of stuff. Contact us, we will, we can listen and see what they have to say. And then we can go to those lawyers and say, Is this a case? And you know, and they're looking, they're looking for cases, and we we are trying to find ways, because going after oil companies is I already know is bad. They also like to do slap suits back, but on you, and everything else. But these lawyers, these lawyers have are some of the best at at key Tam and sec. in the country. And they're really good. And they don't exploit whistleblowers and stuff. So whistleblowers are sources. And so we they know how to do it right, so that you don't ruin your life. Yeah, so anyway, anybody wants to contact us, and we would be more than happy to work with you, if you find anything like that. So you need to start thinking about looking at the contracts. All the contracts, Exxon, Chevron, everybody has for this fracking or for oil and gas, drilling, and whatever, and start looking at those environmental rules that you know, just the the regular environmental rules that are in every federal contract. So in the end, then you said the, the, the public lands, you know, they're they're leasing on public lands, that's federal land, okay. And so I am sure there are pages and pages and pages of environmental things they're supposed to do, even if you don't, aren't doing, you know, if you weren't even doing things that hurt the environment, you'd still have to do these environmental things. And that's a place for and maybe Greg and I should write an article on this. That's a place that where you can start people can start looking. And there's good lawyers to do that. And it's so it's faster, it doesn't take years and years and years. Like yeah, like a key tam cases take? I have. So yeah, it's pretty new. It's pretty new. And I'm and I'm also normal I can, I can talk like a lawyer and key tam laws, because I've had my hands on the patients for years. But I this one I know. But I have, we have very good lawyers that would be willing to look at it with us. So that's this is why think the same way the NASA, this big NASA thing, you know, which is big, and it's great and everything, but you got to bring it down to the grassroots, you know, each neighborhood, you basically have to do this kind of war neighborhood by neighborhood by neighborhood, because in general, taking on big oil, taking on big defense companies, those kind of things, you have to get the people involved and ticked off. And so and so that's I'm glad Greg, Greg brought that up. So that's one of the things that we want to talk about that maybe you and in some of the other groups that would that would really get the attention by the way of the politicians, and the politicians and the local people and everybody else, because the other part is you get a percentage of the money. You can't count on that, you know, but I think I've made for people millionaires through key tam suits. I had a lot of people but not not quite many, though. Some of them became millionaires, because they the percentages were so high. And you can imagine the size of the contracts for the public land use must be huge. Must be Yeah. Yeah. Huge. Okay. Well, good. That's great. I'm glad we went through that because this is exactly what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to get there are tools out there. And you know, everyone's like write your congressman. Yeah, you know, now you write a letter to the Congressman the the the actual snail mail letter, they don't see it for months, because they're checking it for anthrax, you know? Or they get a lot of the emails, they just didn't raise them. So this is the kind of thing that could really kept capture. It's funny when you get that kind of litigation going. And you get the SEC, people don't people are scared of the SEC because they can really give you grief about your process. And that's all they care about. So, okay, great. That's, that's yeah. Okay, so um, so I've already got already asked that question. But does your community have any plans to use new federal climate money to transition to clean energy, which is a big thing in the clean energy jobs, they have what they call environmental justice grants, because they're now and I been sent I've been sending to other activists in New Mexico, there are now the do E and and EPA, especially EPA are actually the asking groups to send in proposals for them to give nonprofit groups money to help on the environmental transition. And so if this was like Maine, it would be sick. Let's all go solar. Well, you know, but New Mexico? Solar. Yeah. So is there any I know, that's northern New Mexico, they're looking at that. But is there any efforts at all or anyone talking about? We have to get shut down, start shutting down fossil fuel? Everybody knows it. Everybody's trying to delay it, the Ukrainian war got everybody off of oh, we can't do it right now. Can't do it right now. And we're running out of time. And so I think that once that, eventually, it'll start a tipping point. And are you are you guys thinking about applying for that kind of thing, or working on that kind of thing, to bring renewable energy?

Kayley Shoup: 51:49

Yeah, so as a really small group, you know, we don't have the capacity to necessarily apply for those grants ourselves. We are trying to connect people and inform people in this area, that those opportunities are there and that they exist, when you see such a huge influx influx of federal dollars, as we're seeing now. It can really go to the people that are in the know, and the larger municipalities and stuff like that. And so we're trying to make sure to work closely with our partners in northern New Mexico, to make sure that folks down here are also aware of the opportunities and that they're they are in the game, in terms of, you know, local government and stuff, making sure that they get some of this funding. It's a struggle here. In the Permian. As I mentioned, obviously, we're going to be one of the oil basins, it's going until the bitter end. And we have a lot of huge consulting firms that work very closely with our local government places like FTI, consulting all of these different things. So that really keeps people from thinking and having this forward looking way of thinking, but we are working hard to make sure that we keep folks attuned to what the opportunities are, what grants they can get to, you know, do renewable energy projects. And then also, another big thing is protecting the land that we have, so that if we do want to put a solar farm up, we do want to put a wind farm up right now we're quickly running out of space to do that here in southeastern New Mexico, even though we're great candidates for that. So it's, it's a bit of a multi pronged approach. But yes, we are trying to make sure that we see some of those dollars and get some projects off the ground here.

Dina Rasor: 53:27

And some of the people who I know this is happening in Ohio, and they don't want big these big solar farms, because they're like taking farmland out of use. And now they're actually finding out that that you can grow crops in between, you leave the tractors with weight, and you can grow crops, especially out in places that are really arid, you can grow crops under the solar panels, and the solar panels actually give them more shade. So you use less water and it's more vigorous planting. And so you could go to a farmer and say, you know, we only need every other row kind of thing. And so that's the kind of thing and then of course wind is you know, there's all this silliness but I don't know about the wind situation in New Mexico but is it is it

Kayley Shoup: 54:20

me could happen with wind farms here too, in this region as well.

Dina Rasor: 54:25

So there was a real there's been a real weariness about taking hold evading land that you're going to use and put solar panels on it. But they're they're not really changing that they're really changing it so that it actually in very, very intense heat areas as it gets hotter and hotter. You can grow more plants under the solar panels because they get some sun but they don't get fried. And of course you've got the water problem. So yeah, there's a lot of innovative stuff. The other thing I wanted to say is this environment Well, this environmental problem is the social justice, environmental problems, environmental justice. That is a very hot topic in Washington right now, you know, I always find these things go, in fact, adds this just like, like clothing, and everything else. But right now, they want to fund local people to transition. And they don't want it to, they don't want it to go to the big people that usually skip skim off the top. And there'll be all those pressures to do so. But they want to be able to go to some small town with TV cameras in tow and say, Look, I really did go to the middle of Appalachia, and we already you know, I really, we really did change this town. So you you sound like you're in a really good situation there to, to do that. So I will send you I'll send you this the things I've taught asking for credit requests for proposals and stuff, I don't think it's going to be very complicated, because they know the small groups don't have the consultants to do big things, ya know? Exactly.

Greg Williams: 56:13

Well, we've really enjoyed speaking with you this evening, Isaiah, is there anything else that you would hope to cover tonight with us?

Kayley Shoup: 56:21

Not off the top of my head. Thank you guys so much for this conversation and for giving me the opportunity to talk a little bit about the work we do?

Greg Williams: 56:28

Well, it seems like, go ahead, Deena.

Dina Rasor: 56:31

Yeah, I was gonna say that's do my usual pitch. We have been trying to educate people through podcasts and you know, do our own start here. But we really are going to be once there's enough money spent, it was a lawyer organization. And that is one of the you know, using either lawsuits or helping teaching people how to talk to reporters how to protect themselves, that whole kind of thing, because that's how you really get this information out. So anybody who start seeing the something that's not going on, or if you're very intrigued with this whole SEC thing, go to our podcast on Poppy Alexander, and from Constantine Canyon, and listen to that, and call me and I call or email me and I will, I will help figure out what you that you have and present it to them and get you together with them. So I'm putting this play out at the every in the pockets, the money is going out. Now it's going out fast, when we first started the money hunting past. So now it's going and now you gotta wait, let the fraud build up a little bit before people start reporting it. But I think we've pointed out, you know, how local activist groups can have much more power doing that kind of stuff. And I also want to say nationally, there is a major easing in the New York Times Washington Post, and everybody else is taking their climate. You know, they had like two or three people on climate and they're quadrupling it. So there's gonna be a lot of reporters sitting out there, especially young, hungry reporters who have a travel budget, sitting out there saying, you know, all these old timers are doing this, where can I make my mark, so there's going to be a real interest. And I've, I was trained as a reporter. And so anybody who wants to cook sometimes it's sometimes it's a little dangerous to approach a reporter when you don't know what you're doing. Because they're kind of like, they're kind of like, get you in like the Moonies, you know, we want to get you to sign off, like a call, because they want you to tell everything but aren't so concerned about your protection. And I know exactly how to do it with reporters, and when they are in the best reporters. So I'm going to start looking at that new group of reporters that are coming in. And if you guys have stopped if people have stories, you know, start writing and starting as and I will be, I will be happy to be late. liaison between. That's great.

Greg Williams: 59:06

So, the other thing I like to say at the end of each one of these conversations is that it's our hope that this is the beginning of our listeners interest in understanding of these topics. And so in order to facilitate that, I hope that if there are any links to information that you would like us to include, along with the podcast summary, just let us know. Our intention is that people listen to these things. And then they start learning more about it on their own.

Dina Rasor: 59:35

And if you want to be like Kaylee, and come on and tell your story, let us know because we are not we're we're trying to do top down and bottom up. We're trying to do both, because I don't think it's I don't think we're going to be able to do this transition without that kind of pressure from both sides. I

Greg Williams: 59:52

think you're exactly right. All right. Well, thanks again, Kaylee. We hope to see you again soon.

Dina Rasor: 59:59

Yeah, thank you. Call us if Call us if you have anything new pop up for sure