Developing Clean Energy Solutions for the Seneca Nation - Matt Renner

Matt Renner serves as Vice President of Seneca Environmental, a tribally owned and controlled Earth-healing solutions company focused on helping commercial customers achieve ambitious climate goals while supporting the long-term well-being of the Seneca Nation and other Indigenous people. His work focuses on partnership development and customer acquisition to create unprecedented collaboration and profitably accelerate climate action. 

Matt has worked as a nonprofit executive in clean energy, climate policy, and journalism for over a decade, focusing on the near-term social and economic impacts of climate change. He was the head of Climate Mobilization and now serves on their board of directors. He began his career as an investigative reporter and later became the Executive Director of the World Business Academy to focus on the transition to a climate-constrained economic paradigm.

Matt has a BA degree in Political Science and Government from the University of California, Berkeley. 

Topics Discussed Include:

·      How Seneca Environmental is set up and its main goals.

·      Why the Seneca Nation set up a specific section to invest in clean climate change solutions.

·      How Seneca Environmental made the 2023 Time100 List and what Matt has done to make Seneca Environmental unique.

·      An outline of the work Renner has done for the Native American community and for corporate businesses on producing clean energy.

·      Why Seneca Environmental’s business model is working for both the Native American community and corporate businesses.

·      How Seneca Environmental’s model and efforts can be replicated with other tribes and businesses to help the clean energy movement going forward.

Further Reading:

·      The Seneca Environmental web site

·      Video overview of the Seneca Nation

·      Federal Tax Credits for Businesses

·      Department of Energy Loan Programs

Transcript

Gregory A. Williams: 0:10

Thanks for joining us for another episode of climate money watchdog where we investigate and report on how federal dollars are being spent on mitigating climate change and protecting the environment. We are a private, nonpartisan, nonprofit organization that does not accept advertisers or sponsors. So we can only do this work with your support. Please visit us at climate money watchdog.org To learn more about us and to consider making a donation. My name is Greg Williams, and I learned to investigate and report on waste, fraud and abuse in federal spending. While working at the project on government oversight, or Pogo 30 years ago, I learned to do independent research, as well as to work with confidential informants or whistleblowers to uncover things like overpriced spare parts, like the infamous $435 hammers, and expensive military weapons systems that didn't work as advertised. I was taught by my co host Dino racer, who founded Pogo in 1981, and founded climate money watchdog with me in 2022. Dena has spent 40 years investigating and sometimes recovering millions of dollars wasted by the Defense Department and other branches of government. She's done this at Pogo as an independent journalist, as an author and as a professional investigator. Our guest tonight is Matt Renner, that serves as vice president of Seneca environmental a an organization owned and controlled by the Seneca Nation and works on earth healing solutions. Book focused on helping commercial customers achieve ambitious climate goals, while supporting the long term well being of the Seneca Nation, and other indigenous people. His work focuses on partnership development and customer acquisition to create unprecedented collaboration and profitably accelerate climate action. Matt has worked as a nonprofit executive in clean energy, climate policy and journalism for over a decade, focusing on the near term social and economic impacts of climate change. He was the head of climate mobilization, and now serves on the board of directors. He began his career as an investigative reporter, and later became the Executive Director of the World Business Academy, to focus on the transition to a climate constrained economic paradigm. Matt has a BA degree in Political Science and Government from the University of California at Berkeley. Welcome. Thanks for having me. Great.

Dina Rasor: 2:49

Yeah, I just like to say, say this Dina Rasor, I'd like to say a few words about Matt and the mountain came to interview me one day on military stuff and ended up recruiting me to write a column for the online magazine truth out, and we worked together for five years on that that was fun working there. And but then I started getting and I called up Matt and said, what needs to be done? You know, I'm looking for a new project. And he said, the climate money has to be watched. There's nobody doing it. And you know, like, the Pentagon. Yeah, there's lots of people watching, but the climate money and and large amount of money that's coming in, it needs to have oversight. So that's when I started thinking about climate money watchdog. So Matt is the spark and idea for doing a book. And now finally got him as a guest, which I'm really pleased. So,

Matt Renner: 3:47

Dina, thanks for having me. And I just want to say like, Greg, I learned so much from your work, and pogos work, and then your long tenure in in journalism, and it's been great working with you. So I'm glad to be here.

Dina Rasor: 4:00

Yeah, I'm glad we're working on the same ideas now. Okay, well, my first question is, you know, this is a unique thing. In fact, I when I was doing my research to find out that you guys got on the Time magazine 100 Climate list, which is quite an honor, because you have such an interesting model of what you're doing. So let's start out with that is explain how the Seneca environmental is set up and its main goals.

Matt Renner: 4:32

Sure, yeah. Thank you. I'm Seneca environmental synthesis. And the summary is essentially we are a tribally owned renewable energy development company. We have aspirations of working in other sectors as well, including earth healing solutions. Like natural reforestation, carbon sequestration through means that are hard and not just offsets. We plan on doing renew Low energy work for the long term benefit of good news are a career owned by I was new to the concept of tribal young business. It turns out that native governments, tribes, nations are the only form of government in the United States that can own and operate a for profit business. That was news to me, even coming out of the space that you described in my bio as a thinker about the next paradigm of business. The reason that was so appealing and the reason I made the jump from the nonprofit sector to this kind of hybrid for profit, but with the real clear social benefit company, is because I see this as a structure that could really work for bringing together some of the incentives and corporate ethos of the for profit economy. But combining that with social mission and doing climate action, that is just as a result of it being housed inside of native communities. So Seneca environmental came from this idea that the Seneca Nation is working to diversify, diversify their economic activities. Right now they have casinos, gas stations, and engage in federal contracting work to serve contracts with the federal government. But they wanted to diversify beyond that, because of the opportunities to use this special status as a tribal young company to do basic basically as a competitive advantage when dealing with corporates who have ESG goals, for example. So we got recognized by the 100 climate list, the time 100 Climate list is the first time they've done a climate list before and our Board Chairman Jordan Garrow made the list on our behalf for the idea of creating a tribally owned renewable energy development company, one of the first of its kind, especially with a mission to support other native communities in doing what the Seneca Nation has done and developing renewable energy assets on their lands to support their people, either financially or through energy security and independence. And so our work to bring that off territory to other communities and other native communities, was recognized as a very impactful approach to climate action. This is a little long winded, but I just want to set the context here. Native communities have not benefited from renewable energy. Before this, too much extent, there's been a lot of good work going on at Department of Energy through the Office of Indian energy to try and get projects built and scoped. But there's a lot of limitations. And the biggest one was that the investment tax credit, it's, you know, 30% or more for renewable energy projects was not available to Native communities before the inflation Reduction Act passed, that changed. And now all of a sudden, native communities and their their enterprises are in the game on renewables.

Gregory A. Williams: 8:16

Okay, good, inspiring news. But my impression is that the main lever that that Native organizations have had to pull up to this point is around land and mineral rights. And that's sort of a negative leverage, it stops things but isn't necessarily so good at starting or promoting things. This seems like fundamental change.

Matt Renner: 8:38

Yeah, I mean, there have been deals that have been done to make money for Native communities for renewable energy through land leases, but that's generally not very profitable. And it tends to create conflict, potentially, with the lease or, or the side of the LISI of those deals because they're working on native lands. And if they aren't, taking care of the land, that those projects can be directly in opposition with the values of the community, not to mention the story of oil and gas exploitation that we heard in native lands, especially highlighted by that new movie, the killers of the flower moon, about the Osage and the efforts to take their mineral wealth. Yeah, so this, this is a change there in their stills, a lot of potential conflict over land use or you know, and making sure that these projects are done appropriately, is one of our main values when we're working with other native communities, and working anywhere else, right, the value of the land is crucial. I do want to say up top here that I'm not a member of the Seneca Nation. I'm an employee of their company. But we do work with a number of people who are members of Seneca Nation, and our board is entirely made up of Seneca as for our parent company, so we are pretty when we are out there doing this business, we feel a sense of responsibility to uphold the values of the Seneca Nation and act as you know, a very aligned arm of the nation itself. So we are very thoughtful about doing development projects, and working with private developers and these deals as well to make sure that they're upholding those values.

Dina Rasor: 10:26

Okay, good. Well, um, so before they did, you guys did sort of a broad range thing. And so you're specifically now the Seneca Nation has set up this specific section to invest in clean energy, and you started sort of started in solar, but you spread out. So talk about that, and tell us all the different areas that you tried to do clean energy and versus carbon capture and, and blue hydrogen and all those other things sound like clean energy, but really aren't?

Matt Renner: 10:57

Yeah, we're pretty focused on solar batteries, potentially electric vehicle charging infrastructure, potentially wind for the right. Use cases, as you know, the number one charge of our company as a traveling on companies to make money for the Seneca Nation. So whatever we do needs to be profitable. And it needs to have impact for the long term investment goals of the Seneca Nation. So we have a development arm that looks at the site assessments for corporates, and help suggest what they might develop on their facilities, which is a great way to work with us because those corporates get to spend their climate dollars in a way that's promotes justice directly by funding, a company that's owned and operated for the benefit of the second nation. So they get a point on their ESG scores in the environmental category, as well as one in the social category, just by signing a contract with us. And then we work with other native communities to assess their opportunities to build renewable energy projects at scale, and help backstop the will help develop the finance the capital stack, for the development of projects and the ownership of projects. That also brings us into contact with the department of energy that has specific loan programs that have been boosted by the inflation Reduction Act to add billions of dollars to these programs, specifically to lend to tribes and communities. So that's, that's the great thing about, you know, our approach is that we're trying to make use of this IRA money that was put out there in a way that, you know, the crafters of the legislation intended. And what I'll tell you is that it's pretty slow going. Doe has not deployed any of those dollars yet, even though they have somewhere between four and $20 billion, specifically for loaning to Native communities to own assets. But we are in the process with them working our way through and hope to be one of the first tribes to come out of that program with a with a loan for acquiring assets.

Dina Rasor: 13:11

Hey, well give us an example of maybe walk us through the sort of soup to nuts thing we have of how you how you start. So say a company comes to you and says, We want to build help build solar, or you find an area or a nation that wants to build solar? How does it what are the steps? And do you guys act as a program managers? Or do you just act as consultants? Or how do you how's that structured?

Matt Renner: 13:42

Yeah, great question. We work at as either consultants or project developers, and then eventually investors on projects. So if it's a corporate, we tend to go to them instead of them coming to us, although I'm happy to take any phone calls that from corporates that are looking to climate action. And our pitch to them is what I just said, which is you should work with a tribally owned company to make your renewable energy projects even more effective, and more impactful, and that's more just and they're very receptive. There's a lot of the ethos in the sustainability community among companies that are focused on climate action also includes spending money to promote racial justice with their vendors, you know, being minority owned and operated and controlled. So that in that case, we do a site assessment, they say, we say, well, where are your facilities give us a list. We look at the price of power that they're paying right now. And where they are in the, you know, latitude longitude to try and figure out how the solar resources and then we can actually look at their rooftops from our desktop tools and the area around them to see how much solar that you could cite on their facilities. This is really becoming a big deal in the Midwest in a new way than it was you know, California and New York. Massachusetts, parts of the country have already have significant solar program, it's really taking off elsewhere in Texas, obviously, it's really taking off elsewhere. Now, as the economics of solar have gotten better, and the price of power hasn't gone down anywhere, so we're looking a lot in the Midwest rooftops on facilities there. So we do that site analysis, and come up with a financial estimate of whether these are gonna say, solar panels are gonna save money or not for the company, and how much we can fit on their site. Because usually, for these industrial customers that we're working with, they can't cover their whole energy use from rooftop solar. If they really want to, we can scope other opportunities for them to do energy production on site, which could be micro wind, or wind turbines. In some places. It could also be fuel cells that initially work from natural gas, but could be converted to clean hydrogen, if and when that ever becomes a thing. And then we present it to them and say, look, here's what we think you can save based on our analysis. If you would like us to build this for you all, we need to lose you lease your rooftop and any adjacent land for $1. And we will build and then own and operate those assets for you, and sell the power to you at a lower rate than you're currently paying. That way, they don't have to pay any upfront money to get started saving money on their power bills. And we get to own and operate an asset on their facility. So it comes out of their op x instead of their capex. The that's the how we work with the corporates, I can also go into how we work with Native communities. If you if you want to or we can pause there.

Dina Rasor: 16:49

No, we like I'd like to hear that too. And yeah,

Matt Renner: 16:54

yeah. And then maybe better decided it's often much more in a consulting role at first, where are we come in, you know, our goal is really to be on the side of the Native community and help them assess their options. As opposed to coming in and saying, Hey, this is a great place for solar, at least is your land. And then we'll pay you a fee. And then basically use that land for 30 years, and you don't have to be involved in the deal. So we do that through consulting with them doing an analysis, looking at options, and then working with them to understand and what their what they'd really like to do to make money. Yeah, go ahead, Greg. Sorry. Yeah,

Gregory A. Williams: 17:40

just interested in any expression, you may have have the scale of your success. So far, you know, numbers of projects, numbers of kilowatts, capacity, whatever might be meaningful to you?

Matt Renner: 17:54

Yeah, great question. I wish I had a better story to tell you about that at the moment. But we are the inflation Reduction Act put this industry on the map and into play in terms of native ownership of renewable energy assets before that it was not viable, because native communities couldn't make use of the investment tax credit. So we're about two years old. We have a pipeline of projects that we are have in development. But the projects that we've actually built are the second nation has built renewable energy assets on their lands. But our company hasn't was not involved in those. So there's a community solar project in New York, on the territories of the Seneca Nation, and a community wind project that are both around a megawatt and a half. And those assets, produce renewable energy, send it back into the utilities that are the electric providers for the territories. And then the second nation receives money for essentially net metering on those assets. Then they pass on those savings to their residents. So residents save about $25 a month from the ownership of those assets. This is a model that we use. When we talk about renewable energy options with other native communities.

Dina Rasor: 19:15

You talked about in the Midwest, you're now doing more. And I one thing I you know, having driven through the Great Plains and whatever now it's amazing how many windmills there are in this huge amount of wind power there. Are any of the Seneca Nation lands in an area that has a wind if not, what about other Indian nations?

Matt Renner: 19:41

Yeah, so Seneca Nation is located in Western New York, about 45 minutes southwest of Buffalo. And the wind resource is not terrible. So there is a wind turbine on territory that they built and own and operate and it turns right along and there may be room for more But their territories are pretty small. And so this is opportunity for some of the plains, tribes and communities that have massive reservations compared to the Seneca Nation. There's some really good wind resources in Montana. And in some of the places that are formerly coal communities are currently called communities to do some replacement. There's special adders in the inflation Reduction Act for communities that are called energy communities, they get additional bonuses to the investment tax credit subsidy. So we're looking at those and helping folks partner on those, the big challenge out there is access to the transmission grid. So transmission, grid, people think about it, as you know, the wires that come to your house, the wires that come to your house, or the distribution grid, the transmission grid is the wires that you see on metal poles that go long distances, often along the highway. And that moves at a much higher voltage, they're much more expensive, and people basically don't build them unless there's a customer at the other end. So these reservations that are often very far out in remote areas, don't necessarily have access to that high voltage transmission system. And that's been a very limiting factor for some of the massive wind projects that are teed up and ready to go once the transmission grid or if ever reaches them.

Gregory A. Williams: 21:25

So when you talk about the community implementations community solar community wind, does that specifically mean they hook into the the the local distribution grid as opposed to the transmission grid?

Matt Renner: 21:41

Yes, that is, like a term community, solar community wind is a little loose. And it's kind of a state by state definition, because that's where the regulations are often set, or a utility, but utility definition. But that's a good rule of thumb is that those projects generally hook into the distribution grid, as opposed to the transmission grid, they tend to be smaller. So they can do that. You know, you think about the size being zero, you know, one to 10 megawatts. And you think about that being about 100,000 square feet per megawatt on a rooftop, or about five acres on ground mount for per megawatt. So if you think about a 10 megawatt project, it's usually about 50 acres of land, packed with solar panels. And generally you can, you can connect those to the distribution grid, and that kind of serves the local area, it does cause some challenges for the actual operators of the grid. If you get any bigger than that.

Gregory A. Williams: 22:43

You mitigate any of those challenges with batteries, you can meter, the amount of power that's going into the grid.

Matt Renner: 22:51

Exactly, yeah, additional storage really helps. The challenges, I think, are a little bit overblown. The grid is the world's largest machine, and it's designed for it was designed for one way power flows from the power to your home or business, right. And what we're doing is we're kind of hacking it and saying, Well, let's produce energy at the end of the grid and send it back the other direction, which it wasn't designed for, but it is capable of doing and batteries are a great piece of the puzzle, dropping them in at places where there's congestion to soak up excess energy when there is excess. And to send it out, really maximize the existing infrastructure without having to replace it.

Dina Rasor: 23:37

I want to every time we ever talk about increasing electricity and the grid and everything, but the thing that I see, and I can see that it's affecting the same, the the regulations now is also affecting the rest of the country. And that is there just isn't enough of the big, big electric carrier wires around. And so it's and it's, it's when to build them, there's all these little fiefdoms and, and utilities and everybody who has been for years kind of running their own game and, and whatever. So there's always it takes a long time to build because there's just all this internal, you know, fighting between governments and, and quasi nonprofit electric, you know, power companies and all this kind of stuff. And then I heard is going to be a, you know, a real big problem eventually. And I was just wondering if you see that the same with your work is that you're going to be slowed up on solar and wind if you can't to transport it.

Matt Renner: 24:53

Yeah, interconnection challenges are a big delay and setback for projects and it really limit That's where you're able to actually build. There's a number of there's, there's a lot of issues there that to discuss, I mean, one of them is, the rights of way themselves that already exists could be maximized by adding additional lines or re conducting, I think it's called where you actually take the old lines out and put better ones in and free up a lot of space. And there's also an issue of just data and ownership and control here, like who actually knows what's happening on the grid, and at what level and the transmission system, you know, a lot of that information in some places is proprietary, or people don't even have it. So that's more of the rural areas, outside of the Independent System Operator areas. But yeah, the grid itself is a real challenge. And that's why there's a lot of work to build renewable energy behind the meter for self consumption only, so that you don't have to actually send it back to the grid. A lot of companies are looking at that now. Because they can't get power to their new facilities that they want to build for all this new manufacturing facilities that are opening up. So they're looking at doing on site generation with renewables storage with batteries, on site generation with natural gas, in some cases, in order to actually get the energy they need just to open their facility. So this is a huge challenge. And something that, you know, is not only limited to, to the Native American lands, what I would say specifically about that issue, though, is that a lot of these reservations are seen as targets for renewable energy development, but also for new rights of way are larger rights of way for transmission systems. And that can create a lot of conflict, in part because those are usually private, privately owned. So one thing that we're big advocates of is if you're trying to do a transmission project, figure out ways to do have the community where it's located actually own it. That way, they have real buy in and with the inflation Reduction Act and the loan programs that are available. Native communities can probably invest in projects that they weren't able to before, and that, you know, 10s to hundreds of million dollar range

Dina Rasor: 27:07

as well, I think it also traditionally among the the tribes and nations across the country. lectricity was already scarce. There was not, you know, I don't know if anyone's ever driven through, driven through reservations, especially in the West with those big long white egg things. And you go through there, and there is a minimal amount of electricity capability. Because it's because because I think because of the discrimination all those years and money that maybe that helped, you know, when they opened some casinos, but it's still not going to be the same kind. There's, I still feel like there's, from what I've just anecdotally seen it look like they're all there, they were already behind the eight ball before this clean energy even started on that on an electrical ability. Yeah,

Matt Renner: 28:02

it's really a human rights issue, frankly, in a lot of places, you know, Navajo Nation has, like, it's 25,000 homes. Without electricity, they're just not connected to any ground. And communities, especially the rural ones are much are very underserved in terms of energy system. You know, it's a historical legacy of why these reservations were placed where they are, in part isn't the is the land. Yeah, yeah. And so they're very remain underserved. There's efforts to try and fix that and a lot of money trying to flow to that. The Navajo Nation is exploring ways to put, you know, little nano grids, essentially, a small battery in a rooftop solar system that can power these houses at much less expense than their current diesel generators that they use and much cleaner. So there are efforts trying to address that. But you know, globally, indigenous people are underserved by electricity, and all that comes along with it. And it's a big issue. Also, these lines just don't get serviced. You know, you talk to folks in New Mexico, and they have blackouts constantly on tribal lands. Interestingly, I got a kick out of this, there's a real business case to be made by some of the casinos who have issues with power, because you know, their energy in when it turns off, for long enough, all those machines, the slot machines have to go and be reset.

Dina Rasor: 29:31

And not mechanical, they're not mechanical anymore. They're all

Matt Renner: 29:35

andit blows out there. They're microprocessors and can actually destroy the machines costume and $25,000 or something per machine. So it's a real energy access is a real issue just for the whole economy on some of these places.

Dina Rasor: 29:49

Okay, what what's what's holding up the federal government in the loans? What is it you know what, that you would think that they'd want to push those out the door right away? And, you know, I know there's a lot of talk about economic justice. And, and all that. And I'm finding from talking to some advocates in New Mexico and Arizona and Texas, that there isn't been a lot the federal government, the federal government speaks a good game in Washington, DC. But what I've heard from activists, including some native activists that there is a there's the local federal infrastructure, especially if you're going to try to replace a coal plant or replace, you know, a fossil fuel industry. They, those bureaucrats are, are been working with the fossil fuel people for years and stuff like that. And so they're reluctant to, you know, you may have people pounding in Washington, yeah, we're gonna get this out, we're gonna have economic justice, we're gonna help you, we're gonna give out the loans. But then I've had them when they go to try to talk to the local Feds and local state and federal people. Oh, yeah, we're gonna do this great program. But then when they try to find out who's who's Who is it, that's getting the money? Where are they coming in? Where's the, you know, where's the loans going to? And what's his company's background? A lot of times they're told, but local federal people that oh, that's proprietary, we can't tell you. Of course, they can tell you. This is not like doing weapons, you know, this was prep, they're starting to use the proprietary neti thing that. So have you run into that a bit of that being one of the things that slowed it down? Or is it just plain old, good old fashioned bureaucracy?

Matt Renner: 31:41

Great question. I can only really speak to the tribal and program office at the Department of Energy. And what I'd say is that there's people there that are trying really hard to move that money, and they're doing everything they can to find ways to get borrowers into the program. And to get projects built with those dollars. I think their intentions are really good at DOD. I think the challenge is that the program was never really set up to move quickly. And there's a lot of diligence to be done on these projects, including the NEPA, the National Environmental Protection Act studies that are required for anything the federal government funds. So one of the challenges that that NEPA stuff, the requirement pushes the ability of the dollars to get up or back nine months to a year. So you can get your project teed up and apply and then they have to do a study and then you get the money a year later. If you're actually in the commercial markets, trying to buy a competitive project, with that money, that year is unacceptable to the people selling the project, they're not gonna give you the bid, have you win the bid, and then wait a year to get paid. So that's one challenge that we're working to help overcome by speeding that process up a bit. Other ones are just that there's there's a general lack of capacity in the industry for native owned renewable energy, because it's only two years old. There's a lot of really smart people at in these native communities in these governments who are working really hard. But there's just not that many of them in terms of how big these projects are, and can be, there's a real lack of professional support. So there's a number of groups, including a company called or nonprofit called the Alliance for tribal clean energy, that are working in backstops in that capacity. That's also one of the things that we intend to do and have done as consultants is to fill in gaps with other native communities, to bring our team to help them get their projects done. And then lastly, it's it's a matter of, do we need to see that these projects are profitable, and that the borrower is going to be able to pay back the loan, they have a low interest rate. So that helps. But it's, you have to do kind of the same steps you would do from a bank for each one of these projects, and it takes time and the projects, it costs money. So the projects have to have upfront capital and development capital to put in to the process and put at risk in order to get the pre development and development work done. To make them eligible for the loan. And so that's a that's a pretty risky proposition. And something that not all communities are ready to do, especially at scale.

Gregory A. Williams: 34:30

So to what extent are you set up to clear or overcome those hurdles?

Matt Renner: 34:35

Yeah, I mean, our approach, we haven't done it yet. So I think we are and we're very close. But our approach is, first of all, we're trying to acquire existing assets as opposed to building new ones for our first time through the loan program office. That way the projects have an established track record and how much value they're creating, how much they're worth. They also don't need new environmental studies because they're We're not actually building any new assets, not disturbing any ground, they're already operating. So that's, that's our tactic on the first one, and then we're also working closely with the DOD, to help them get to know us so that they don't have to reevaluate us as a company. And as a qualified borrower. Every time we bring them a new project, our theory is that we get one in and get it done. And that will help the second one get done faster, which we think is true based on our conversations with them. Lastly, you know, we have a really great team that we've put together. So the Seneca Nation has a really professional corporate structure where they essentially have empowered Seneca holdings to go and do business and these different fronts. And we've invested a ton of money in people and expertise, to be able to try and bring kind of the top of the line professionals in the industry to bear on this on this issue. So it's a gamble. And we're definitely spending more than we're making right now. Trying to set this up. We hope that that will pay off when we get a few projects completed and a few investments completed.

Dina Rasor: 36:12

So where where do you Where would you like to see yourself in two years and five years and 10 years, I know it's hard to get an idea because of course, a lot of it has to do with its elected president. And whether this money is not cut eventually cut off. I can see that that program that help to help the nation's would be something that they might want to get the AX really quickly if the if unsympathetic people in there got through. So where, where but giving the idea that maybe there there is that there's pressure to do this now and and, you know, positive feelings about having the the Native American nations, we have big participation and a lot of money been put into it? Where do you where do you see this going in two years and five years or 10 years? That kind of thing? What What kind of goals would you have?

Matt Renner: 37:15

Yeah, I think that the work with the corporate sector is really scalable, I think that they're going to continue to do on site renewables and have a demand for renewable energy that's just going to grow. A lot of these major companies have really ambitious climate goals, but they don't have a viable strategy for reaching them. So I think they looked at onsite renewables, you know, 10 years ago. And I think it's time to take another look, because the economics have changed. And I think you'd be a great partner for anyone who's looking to do a project that really does weave in their goals around renewable energy, along with any goals around climate and racial justice. So that's where we're focused, I'd like to see us working with three fortune 500 companies to do assessments on their facilities, we've got two in the pipeline. So we need one more if anyone out there is listening. And then a lot of medium sized businesses to do Evie charging and on site renewables. On the larger project size. I don't know if we have the capital to pull this off. But I'd like to see us put together a billion dollars in investment capital to be deployed in the next 10 years or less, in order to build a real portfolio of assets that are fully owned and operated by Native communities, I think that'd be a really big win. And we'd really help exercise a lot of that DOD money. Regardless of the political risk, I think this is still viable, as long as they don't change the tax credit to exclude native communities like it used to be.

Gregory A. Williams: 38:41

It sounds like you've got strategies to overcome some of the more important obstacles by locally generated power consumed on site, you don't have to worry about the transmission grid access. By working with private companies, you're getting capital from them, instead of getting it from time consuming loans with the from the federal government. And in the meantime, you have these tax credits, to distinguish yourself from other development organizations that these companies might otherwise turn to. Is that a reasonable summary? And are there other advantages you have?

Matt Renner: 39:17

Yeah, I think that the, the thing that we have access to, if we can make use of the loan program at DOE is we have a competitive cost of capital. So in this current high and higher cost of money environment, you know, the Fed interest rates a lot higher than it was a few years ago, we actually have an advantage to be able to borrow almost at that Fed rate. And that makes our bids for acquiring projects very competitive, even with our limited size and experience. So that's a key advantage that we're hoping to leverage. The other thing that we think that we can bring to bear here is being really early and first. So once we get a couple of projects on data lands completed that have the structures that will be public in terms of their structures that really benefit native communities not just doing a land lease and the more exploitative model, we think that that's going to scale. And you know, in Indian country as its, as it's called, it's you get a reputation really fast, either good or bad. And if we can get a good reputation and show that these projects are working for Native communities, we think that we can scale in that direction pretty quickly, the transmission issue is going to always be there. And there may be some ways around it. I know you all follow the hydrogen conversation a lot. Well, this is an opportunity to do green hydrogen with new build renewables. And in doing so, circumvent the transmission issue, because if you can make hydrogen on site, co located with new renewable energy development, you can not have to worry about that transmission problem. There's some real challenges to that system, in terms of finding instability and making sure you're doing business with a company that's not going to go out of business, and leave you with no one to buy your renewable energy that you've that you're producing. But I think those can be overcome to working with the right companies.

Dina Rasor: 41:11

Yeah, is there anybody that's looking or any of your projects looking at? Because of course, this is the darling of a lot of industries right now is LED is looking at the carbon capture. thing to try to say, you know, what's left? Yeah,

Matt Renner: 41:33

my thinking on carbon capture is in carbon credits in general is that if you can find ways to really sequester carbon and a hard form and a permanent form, I'm interested in talking about it. So my, the, I've just had a couple calls today on biochar as an option, where you actually taking wood waste and turning it into a more permanent biochar that you can bury in the ground, or use as a as a component of the well remediation in oil and gas wells. So that you can actually put biochar in those wells that helped clean up the emissions from them, and serve as a plug along with concrete or cement. And so there's some carbon capture stuff to be done. That could be good. I'm not a bit I'm not really into the offsets. Those are too much of a smoke and mirrors for me. But there are other there's another great one that do you think you'd like? called Enhanced rock weatherization? Have you heard of this one? No. Okay, so this is, this is a little complex, but I love it. It's it's essentially taking baths, salt rock, grinding it up and spreading it on agricultural fields. The farmers love it, because it actually is a nutrient provider. And so it can be an alternative fertilizer. And then when it rains, that rainwater mixes with the basalt and captures carbon in the process, it's a quest, or is it in a hard form, eventually going out through rivers into the ocean, in a benign form. So enhanced rock weatherization is a cool one that I'm really excited about as a real, solid carbon capture mechanism. You know, the tax credit and all that is interesting and important. I'm not an expert on it at all. But I am interested in seeing if there's ways we can leverage that to.

Dina Rasor: 43:23

Yeah, there's a lot of people think of carbon capture, they think about, oh, we capture it in this most smokestack, you know, we, we capture the carbon in the mismo sack, so we can continue to do natural gas and coal, whatever. And then, and there's been some questionable on how they report it, and whether they really are capturing that much. But then the other thing is to take that co2 and pressurize it and put it in pipelines. They're talking. Princeton put out a map, a pipeline map, that was the first time I looked at it, I said, that isn't gonna work, because it's more pipelines than we have oil pipelines in the United States. And you know, how popular pipelines are now. And of course, this is highly pressurized any water Yes, in it, they blow up. And so the whole idea of carbon capture, I think, has to be sort of not, not damp out, burning it capturing the carbon, putting it through, putting it through pipelines and then put it back in the ground. It's the cost of that is prohibitive, and without very generous tax credits from the IRA wouldn't be possible. So that's a that's part of capital carbon capture. Most people think they don't think of the more creative stuff.

Matt Renner: 44:41

Yeah, I agree that that system is definitely problematic. I mean, number one reason being that we need to take carbon out of the atmosphere as opposed to becoming carbon neutral, right, we actually have to reverse the amount of carbon that's in the atmosphere. So we need to get to zero new emissions. And then we actually need Pull out historical emissions if we're gonna have a chance at surviving the climate emergency. So if you just get to neutral by capturing all the carbon that comes out of burning natural gas, and then you have to go sequester it somewhere, in a sense, you're taking away an opportunity to pull carbon out of the atmosphere and sequester that instead. So I think it's not a great policy. Yeah.

Dina Rasor: 45:19

And the problem is, too, it's also so expensive. And it takes so much energy and carbon based energy to do all this stuff that you end up negating, and everything that you've all, you know, oh, we saved all this stuff. But yeah, it's what you call the net? What do you have to do for the, what's the net amount, you're going to do? Not the amount that you get? The gross you're going to get out of it. But they're really talking about now you have to, you have to count the manufacturing and the work and the energy of everything you do from that plant from that plan on to see if it's correct, rather than just picking out the good news of some of the carbon that you may have saved?

Matt Renner: 46:02

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I could see a system in 20 years, 30 years where we have 10% of our energy, that's still being electricity that's still being provided by natural gas with carbon capture, I don't think that's out of the realm of possibility. Because there's going to be some flexibility, potentially, that might be the most efficient way to do it. But that should be very limited amount, it shouldn't be a significant portion beyond that kind of flexible. Generation. One for me is where there's so much carbon to be dealt with that any emissions should be avoided as much as possible. And we should look for gas for solar and wind to do as much of that as possible until we actually need to have some flexible fossil that.

Dina Rasor: 46:52

Yeah, I say this almost every podcast, but it's so good. BILL MCKIBBEN from 350. Org, he did an article on lending magazine, and I really someday gonna write him write him up. He was one of our first guests write him up and say, can I make this into a bumper sticker? Because the headline for that was, the Earth is on fire, stop burning things. And so when people get on, and they get all confused about cap carbon capture, and this and maybe we can do that, and maybe we can make start with blue hydrogen and make it green later. And you know, by using natural gas, and blah, blah, blah. And I always say to myself, when I look at a project is, are you burning anything? You're burning something, you've got to do something about the carbon. And, you know, it's it clarifies it, because there are a lot of people out there with all kinds of credits. And this isn't just the warm, fuzzy environmentalists, these are there are people with those, those carbon credits and things like that, that they're in the IRA, which is very lucrative that they are looking there, you know, the sharks are circling. And I can see, and I try to tell environmentalists, you know, not everybody is interested in the environment. But if there's money, they will come and do this stuff. So I, that's what the new viewers or listeners should do is that every time they get confused about something, and they say, the Earth is on fire, stop burning things. And if this is continuing to burn, this should be the thing that you don't emphasize the most use to emphasize the stuff we don't burn.

Matt Renner: 48:31

Yeah, it's a really good rule of thumb. I totally agree. Okay.

Dina Rasor: 48:34

Well, you have anything else you'd like to add?

Matt Renner: 48:37

You know, I think the bottom line for me is that the inflation Reduction Act is a massive win on a lot of levels, if it can be implemented, right, right. And you're taking a look at how it's being implemented wrong as a key service that you all are doing, and I really appreciate it. And I want to be able to go out and tell the stories of where it's providing benefit, and how we can lift it up in this critical election year. I personally, am concerned about not the climate legislation itself, just not getting the credit it deserves for the impact it can have on creating a green and secure future. It's not enough. And my time in the climate movement really led me to believe that we need about 10x, what was done under the inflation Reduction Act to move at the speed we need to and I think there's a much bigger role for the federal government. But it's a good start. That has really catalyzed a lot of thinking and a lot of clarity for the industry. And I'm not a huge fan of privatizing all this work. I think there's a much better way to do it, but it is the card we've been dealt and it's it's what we're ready to play. And so I think it's an all hands on deck effort to make sure that money is being lost, but also to accelerate the deployment of those funds along pathways that we know are good. So anyone who's listening who's working Hatfield Thank you. And anyone who wants more information about Seneca environmental can check us out at Seneca environmental, calm, and just drop me a note on there if you want to answer any questions.

Gregory A. Williams: 50:13

Are there any specific pieces of advice you'd have for for other native communities to kind of replicate what you've done or take advantage of what you've done?

Matt Renner: 50:24

Yeah, the native communities that I'm in touch with have been doing a lot of great thinking and work on their own on these fronts. It's usually a capacity issue. This is renewable energy development is not the highest of their needs. In some of these more rural communities, and more economically disadvantaged communities, water and housing are primary, especially in the West, housing everywhere, as we know. So what we can do is come in as a third party with our own ability to do assessments and support an investigation into renewable energy options for Native communities. And our commitment is really to be on their side through that process. And we usually try to get paid through grants to do that consulting work. And then we have the ability to bring flexibility and capital to their projects and partner with them. I don't know if I got to this nuance, but taxpaying entities and non taxpaying entities can't co own projects, or else that will mess up the investment tax credit. So we are a non taxpaying entity, which allows us to partner with other native communities that are also non taxpaying entities on their side of the deal, to be able to do co investment and joint ventures that keep the inflation and the investment tax credit intact. So that's a lot of words to say, we are trying to figure out how to make these projects really work for Native communities, and we have some specific knowledge to support their efforts. But basically, we can also just do referrals to companies that we know who share our values and, and want to see good projects come for Native community. So we're very welcome open to being in touch and giving our advice, anything we can do to support those efforts.

Gregory A. Williams: 52:15

All right. Well, this has been it's been exciting to hear about the work that you've been doing, and I hope you'll be back in the future to tell us about your success. Especially if you managed to get one of those DoE loans. Yes.

Dina Rasor: 52:31

Yeah, we'd like you to come back and you know, maybe six months and say it's getting better, it's getting worse, you know, that kind of thing. Because I think that that's something that's educational for people there's a lot going to be he's out there and it's gonna be interesting to see how the market market and the federal government sorts that out. So really appreciate really appreciate you doing this and any other native groups that want to come on that you know of, please give us your name and number because we we are we want we are very interested in having a lot of a lot of nations come on and and really do the really, really see how they're working out. In fact, I just got contacted by some other another tribe, so I will let you know how that goes.

Matt Renner: 53:22

Fantastic. Yeah, great to be on and keep up the great work. Great to see you both.

Gregory A. Williams: 53:27

Okay, thank you very much.

Matt Renner: 53:29

Thank you