How The Plastics Industry is Tied to Fossil Fuels – Melissa Valliant

We’re pleased to have as our guest Melissa Valliant, Director of Communications for Beyond Plastics, a non-profit organization dedicated to ending plastic polution. She grew up on the Eastern Shore of Maryland and graduated from Syracuse University with a plan to pursue magazine journalism. Somewhere along the way, she became hooked on environmental conservation and discovered a love for leveraging her communications abilities to make the world a better place. Melissa had her first letter to the editor published in a kids' science magazine at the age of 11 and has since been published in the New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, and USA Today, among others. Prior to her role at Beyond Plastics, she managed communications for Oceana's plastics campaign and worked for the National Aquarium in Baltimore.

Topics Discussed Include:

• How environmental and health problems are connected with micro plastic and nano plastic particles and why scientists are alarmed.
• Why only 9 percent of plastic waste recycled.
• How the plastics lobby/greenwashing industries that were against abatement and reform.
• How the Fossil Fuel believes they can make up for future oil market loss with plastics production.
• How plastic manufacturing is highly polluting, where in the country we produce it, and impacts on local communities.
• What is currently being done to reform and what ultimately needs to be done to start to fix the problem.

Further Reading / Topics Discussed in this Episode:

·      Consider the positive and aspects of “The crying Indian” commercial on American society.

·      How do prominent projects such as “Mr. Trash Wheel” encourage plastics removal/recycling versus reduction of plastics production affect public perception?

·      Media Briefing on Polution in Port Arthur, TX

·      Break Free from Plastic Pollution Act

·      The Packaging Reduction and Recycling Infrastructure Act

·      Beyond Plastics Affiliates

·      Beyond Plastics petitions

Transcript

Gregory A. Williams: 0:09

came up. Thanks for joining us for another episode of climate money watchdog where we investigate and report on federal dollars and how they're being spent on mitigating climate change and protecting the environment. We are a private, nonpartisan nonprofit organization that does not accept advertisers or sponsors. So we can only do this work with your support. Please visit us at climate money watchdog.org To learn more about us and consider making a donation. My name is Greg Williams, and I learned to investigate and report on waste, fraud and abuse in federal spending while working at the project on government oversight, or Pogo 30 years ago, I learned to do independent research as well as to work with confidential informants or whistleblowers to uncover things like overpriced spare parts, like the infamous 300 I'm sorry,$435 hammers, and expensive military weapons systems that didn't work as advertised. I was taught by my co host, the inner racer, who founded Pablo in 1981, and founded climate money watchdog with me in 2022. Dina has spent 40 years investigating and sometimes recovering millions of dollars wasted by the Defense Department and other branches of government at Pogo, as an independent journalist, as an author, and as a professional investigator. Tonight, we're pleased to have as our guest, Melissa valued director of communications for beyond plastics, a nonprofit organization dedicated to ending plastic pollution. She grew up on the eastern shore of Maryland and graduated from Syracuse University with a plan to pursue magazine journalist. Somewhere along the way, she became hooked on environmental conservation, and discovered a love for leveraging her communications abilities to make the world a better place. Melissa had her first letter to the editor published in the kids science magazine at the age of 11, and has since been published in the New York Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, and USA Today, among others. Prior to her role at beyond plastics, she managed communications for Oceana's plastics campaign, and worked for the National Aquarium in Baltimore. You want to tell us why we're excited to have Melissa as our guest.

Dina Rasor: 2:28

And we're very excited. I mean, some people might not think this is climate change. But if you go back and look at our, our goal, we talk about climate change. But we also talk about Earth overreach, which is something that I think is really important, because you don't want I mean, climate change is a is crisis, we know that. But if we're not paying attention to the other environmental crises going on, even if we abate the climate change situation, which is going to take years, if we don't do something about our pollution, it's going to have a great effect on human health and animal health and food, and water, and fish and everything we everything we do. And so I've been, you know, I tried to not buy plastics, I no longer buy laundry detergent in plastics, I buy those little micro sheets and stuff. And like, I feel like I'm doing something. And I always start my plastic always make sure in the bin, it's got the right number. And you do all that work and you rinse it out because if it has got any residue, they won't recycle it. So we all very, you know, very big out here in California to do this. And lo and behold, I found out that only 9% of all plastic is recycled and especially bad with single use plastics so I I am also I really upset about the greenwashing where they were like, the consumers can do this. They couldn't it's the consumers fault. We need to recycle ourselves out of this. No, you need to stop making the crap that has to be recycled, it is not getting recycled. And on plastics and plastics, we need plastics for things. But the single use plastics seem to sound like one of the worst things. And I despite the science that's going on around here where it's breaking down into micro and nano particles which they are finding in 90% of the living things in the world. It's in the deepest trenches of the ocean where you see all those weird fish clear up to, you know, once it breaks into this micro and nano, it's just in and they it's in women's plus centers. It's now that I just read an article that if you are making making a lot of plaque in your veins If they find it, the nanoparticles get into your blood and, and the micro particles and they stick onto your plaque, which you don't need any help with that, right? So I think we are greatly underestimating. For anybody who has ever had an autoimmune disease, this is sitting in your body parking along. And you can see I'm really passionate about this. Because you're basically putting fuel particles in your body to sit there and deteriorate and release all the stuff that you would find an oil and this is not, you know, you don't eat Vaseline, petroleum jelly for a reason. It's oil based. And so as a result, I think that this is greatly underreported, and I'm very excited about having Melissa here to explain it to us because I've been wanting to do this for a while. Thanks for coming on the list. I really appreciate it. And I'm sure I probably got I'm gonna do a Rachel Maddow here, I probably got something wrong, but you can fresh like that she was asked to get it right. Journalists are jack of all trades. We're not We're not specialists in any one area. So anyway, we'll start out with the would you have mentioned could be a very long topic. But I think to start this out, the listeners have to hear the good, the good, bad and ugly about how bad this is for environmental and health problems with microplastics and nanoplastics. Because once they break up, they're very hard to get out. You know, it's not like you're picking up a bottle anymore, you're picking up micro real small pieces. So why don't you go ahead and talk about environmental health problems, why the scientists are so alarmed.

Melissa Valliant: 6:55

It's a pleasure to be talking with both of you, thank you for allowing me to be here. In the spirit of Rachel Maddow, I will say that the climate and plastics crises are intrinsically linked, as well. So they are not separate. Plastic contributes to climate change by emitting greenhouse gases throughout every stage of its lifecycle. And it is such a contributor to climate change, in fact, that if plastic were a country, it would be the fifth fifth largest emitter of greenhouse gases in the world. That's impressive. It's far more plastic produces far more greenhouse gases than even the aviation sector, which is what many people associate so strongly with greenhouse gases. So it's very important to keep in mind plastics relationship to the climate crisis. In terms of plastics, impacts on environment, and human health, plastics are one of the greatest threats to our planet. Today. They do, as you mentioned, Deena, break up, and we do say break up, rather than break down because the fact is that plastic doesn't there's no evidence to prove that plastic actually does break down that sounds like it. Break down makes it sounds like sound like it degrades, like paper, wood or another organic material. Plastic does not what it does do is break up into smaller and smaller pieces, like microplastics, which also can get even tinier to nanoplastics microplastics are five millimeters meters or less nanoplastics Or even smaller. And there's an infinite number of these little plastic pieces. All throughout our planet. No place on this planet has been untouched by plastic, as you mentioned, it's found on the deepest part of the ocean, the Marianas Trench. It's also in some of its in the air of the most remote mountains. Um, it's been found a placentas, as you mentioned, it also there was a recent study showing that it is in human brains, we found it in feces, it's eve rywhere our blood. It's very concerning. And given that there are over 16,000 chemicals used in the making of various types of plastic. You gotta wonder, what is this doing to human health? So scientists are very much investigating that. And there's still a lot to learn. But we have discovered it in so many places of our body, and we're still trying to figure out what those chemicals are doing. Oh, yes,

Gregory A. Williams: 10:01

yeah, I think many of us have seen these pictures of the the remains of, of birds on remote Pacific islands that have, you know, these big chunks of plastic and, you know, that's not even microplastics, you know, as you put it out, those are, you know, five millimeters across or less. And you know, these photos show chunks of plastic that are, you know, 10s of millimeters long. And you know that that's already sort of terrifying, you know, the idea that a bird 1000s of miles from civilization can have its belly full of these big chunks of plastic. Just imagine, in a tiny particles that we can't even see, that are throughout our own bodies, doing, you know, who knows what, to our internal biological systems, it's really an sort of profoundly terrifying.

Dina Rasor: 10:57

And every time we eat something, especially like fish in the ocean, or eating more of it,

Melissa Valliant: 11:03

and even more than that any of your food or drinks that are packaged in plastic, the chemicals that are used to make plastic, many of which are known to be hazardous, and perhaps even more alarmingly, even more, which haven't been tested for toxicity with humans whatsoever, they can leach from that packaging, into our food and drink. So we are getting those chemicals from plastic in the food, and drink. And a lot of these chemicals, many of these chemicals are associated with very serious human health problems, including cancer, diabetes, hormonal issues, fertility issues, this is very concerning.

Dina Rasor: 11:51

Autoimmune diseases, also, I believe, I would think your immune system would just constantly be trying to put the, you know, these chemicals out, and that oftentimes leads to autoimmune disease. It's

Melissa Valliant: 12:05

kind of it's kind of comical, in a way, in a dark way of people often think of plastic as a way to sanitize things, or keep them safe from bacteria, which it does, but at the same time, we're doing that with a material that is made with chemicals that we know to be toxic. So this is not the clean sanitary material that we're we're perceiving it to be.

Gregory A. Williams: 12:36

So talk for just a minute about the scale of the plastics industry. And you know, the the idea that we're constantly making more and more of this. And why is only 9% of that being recycled in any given time.

Melissa Valliant: 12:54

So the plastics industry is anticipating doubling plastic production by 2050. We already are producing an alarming amount of plastic, it's over. You know what I'm going to come back to that we'll go back at the end, I want to make sure I get the stat right. But the reason the main reason that most of those plastic isn't being recycled, is because most of this plastic isn't recyclable. And dniu said that 9% of plastic has been recycled, that is the current global recycling rate. And also 9% of all plastic ever generated has been recycled. But here in the United States, less than 6% of plastic is recycled. So numbers one and two, which are typically your single use water bottles, soda, jugs, shampoo, containers, that kind of thing, are typically the most recyclable. But outside of numbers one and two, most municipalities are unable to recycle the rest. And when you think about it, numbers one and two, like your single use water bottles and soda bottles. When do you get those? It's usually when you're like on a road trip, you're not at home, and when you go to dispose of it, there often isn't a recycling bin that you can put it in so those numbers are even lower than they should be. Which is also why we need to start having more deposit laws put in bottle bills so that there can be an incentive for people to recycle these

Gregory A. Williams: 14:43

Yeah, it's very easy for me, you know who has lived in New York and Seattle for most of my adult life to You know, think that there are recycle bins everywhere. In most parts of the country that that's just not the case. Yeah.

Dina Rasor: 14:57

I have a family farm in Kentucky. Key and I have yet to see recycling in any town or any store, they just, you know, they throw it in the trash or down the hall.

Gregory A. Williams: 15:12

I'm genuinely shocked to hear the the United States actually lags behind the worldwide average, I would have thought that we would have been, you know, not weird, but at least, you know, at the average and slightly above the average what contributes to the United States not doing as well as the world at large?

Melissa Valliant: 15:33

It's a great question and one that I not i don't necessarily have the answer to but we're not terribly far behind. Both the 9% rate and under 6% are both dismal. So let's keep it

Dina Rasor: 15:46

fair enough, bad or worse.

Melissa Valliant: 15:49

plastic recycling is failing around the world, not just here in the United States. We were at 8.7% prior to the latest numbers, which are 2021 for the US recycling rate. So we dropped from 8.7% down to less than 6%. And to be honest, I don't have the answer for you of exactly why we we dropped a few. But as I said it was already dismal to begin with. This is not, we're not going to recycle our way out of this mess and analogy I like to use is if you walk into your bathroom and find that your tub has been flooding, and the faucets on, you don't grab a mop, that's not the first thing you do, the first thing you do is turn off the tap. And then you clean up. Recycling is the mop for plastics, we are not going to be able to clean up that mess until we stop producing so much unnecessary plastic. And the onus, for that change falls on companies and policymakers who can force companies to reduce the amount of plastic they're using. It does not fall on consumers. As much as the industry has a, you know, had ad campaigns and PR stunts for decades to convince us that it's it's our problem. Oh,

Dina Rasor: 17:12

you're walking right into my next question which is explained who in the plastic plastics lobby greenwashing industries that are against abatement and reform? I mean, who are the people that are greenwashing this to make us feel guilty that we might have accidentally thrown water bottle not in the recycling bin, but in the regular trash? What sounds like it would have gotten the regular trash anyway.

Melissa Valliant: 17:40

So the green washing all started around the 1970s. People were realizing that there were consequences to this mass use of plastic and the constant disposal of plastic. And plastic companies and petrochemical companies were starting to feel the pressure. And they did not want their product or their production to be regulated. So there are actually there was a great expos a that came out in 2020 with NPR and Frontline that actually found quotes and evidence from plastics. execs in the 1970s saying we know plastic recycling is not going to solve the problem. But we need to convince the public that it will. Because the alternative is us being regulated. And we don't want that this piece even had the frontline peace even had these former plastic execs talking about how they were present for these conversations. It's pretty wild. So this is when ad campaigns like the crying Indian, which some generations will remember vividly came out that was in the 1970s. And the whole point of it was to make consumers feel bad for their litter, which by the way, litter is also a word that was pretty much created by the industry to make consumers feel bad and think that the pollution problem was their problem. And that crying Indian ad was just kind of the start of decades of multimillion dollar ad campaigns by people like the Society of plastics industry, which is now called something else. Now we're dealing with the American Chemistry Council as well, which is a huge petrochemical industry backed organization that I can tell you is in all of the hearings and on the local, state and federal level. Regarding plastic bands there, they're lobbying there they're talking to lawmakers, telling them that this isn't the way to go. That recycling can fix everything. So please don't regulate plastic.

Dina Rasor: 20:04

This, this reminds me of a similar thing they did with carbon footprint. In other words, when when the carbon problem came out, it wasn't all these belching smokestacks, it's because you drove your car to the grocery store too many times. And so, you know, we got to lower our carbon footprint. So it sounds like the same kind of thing. Greg, you wanted to make a comment? Oh,

Gregory A. Williams: 20:26

just you know, I'm sorry to say that I'm old enough to remember when lots of things that are currently packaged in plastic were packed in cardboard, wax paper, or glass, you know, I'm, you know, I remember buying soda in glass, I remember buying cereal, where the internal packaging was, was wax paper and the exterior was, was cardboard, I remember buying yogurt, when it was a cardboard cup, covered wax and a cardboard cover covered in wax. How is the plastic industry, convincing consumers and industry that plastic is the only way to go, when within our lifetime. So much of the things that we currently use with do with plastic were, were done with recyclable or biodegradable materials. And let me add, you know, aluminum and stainless steel to that too, you know, there are all kinds of things that you can, you can do with those kinds of of metals that, you know, have been in the environment essentially forever, and don't have known carcinogenic or other harmful effects. And nevertheless, instead of using those we're using plastic.

Melissa Valliant: 21:47

The plastics industry is favorite go to, is to say that the alternative materials to plastic, like glass, for example, would have a higher carbon footprint than plastic itself. The truth is that they're usually pointing to what are called lifecycle assessments, there are a certain type of scientific analysis or study that are typically funded by the plastics industry. And they fail to show the full scope of plastics contribution to climate change, and its total greenhouse gas emissions throughout its entire lifecycle. It also obviously, is a huge gap to only talk about plastics, climate impacts, and completely leave out all of the other devastating environmental impacts that plastic has on our environment. So that's one of the justifications that the plastics industry has. The truth is for them plastic is a cheap option. And that's why they want to keep it. But what we actually encourage at beyond plastics is not switching from one disposable material to another. So we don't think that the solution has to be switching from plastic to like you were saying cardboard, or glass. The ideal situation is actually switching from single use plastic to reusable and refillable solutions. This is not out of the question we have. My grandmother grew up in an era where that was totally normal. I mean, we all have heard of the milkman who came by with the glass bottles and systems so that people were paying extra for the glasses, but they got that deposit back when they returned them. The same thing can be applied to a lot of the everyday single use plastic items that we use, we just need to build the infrastructure for it, which is totally doable.

Dina Rasor: 23:50

Okay, so So one of the things that came up is that and we kind of touched on but fossil fuel knows that the right I think they know the writing's on the wall with oil, they're doing a really good job pumping the hell out of everything now. But eventually, as the cars get more and more electric, and if you know depending on depending on who gets elected and whether pollution and and climate change gets paid any attention. But meanwhile, they know that you know what they're looking down they know that their one of their really profitable things is making gas, jet fuel, things like that. And, of course, it's also highly polluting, but evidently it's also highly polluting to make plastic. But why would they do that? Do they really believe they can make up for future oil losses with plastic production as they call it? Plan B. I mean, is that why everyone's estimating the plastics gonna go way up even though we know it's everywhere in our bodies.

Melissa Valliant: 25:01

I mean, plastic production, we know is going to go way up because of estimates that the plastics industry themselves have provided. And because it's done that consistently, since we started mass producing plastic in the 60s, society will eventually ditch fossil fuels as fuels. As you're saying, for things like driving your car, we are starting to see, you know, a shift to hybrid vehicles and electric vehicles. And I do think that eventually we will be phasing out that hard reliance on fossil fuels, the plastics and petrochemical industries know that too. So they need something to do with their product away to sell it. And that is why for decades, they have been increasingly finding new ways to package our everyday items. In plastic, it's, it's gotten to the point where I'm sure you all have ordered off of Amazon, or somewhere else online. And sometimes it's comical how much plastic packaging comes with an item that you bought. It'll have you know, it'll be wrapped in like thin plastic film, but then there'll be plastic, what do they call them plastic pillows, all around it. Sometimes things will be double wrapped in plastic in the grocery now you'll find I find potatoes, single individual potatoes wrapped in plastic, they literally come with their own natural packaging the skin. They have found ways to add their product into everything that we buy, and they will continue doing that.

Gregory A. Williams: 26:49

Yeah, my favorite example was I went way out of my way to find a completely recyclable or you know, or biodegradable toothbrushes, you know, wooden handles, you know, bamboo fiber bristles, and I was so excited to finally get these and you know, I ordered them on Amazon, they arrive in a plastic bubble wrap envelope, having been flown on a jet from from Germany and just couldn't have been more crushed. The you know, find that despite my best efforts, my attempt to be biodegradable, which is completely undermined.

Melissa Valliant: 27:29

Boo utensils as well recently where I ordered bamboo utensils, and they're supposed to come in a canvas, little pouch, which they did, but you open up the canvas pouch and the bamboo utensils were wrapped in plastic.

Dina Rasor: 27:46

Well, I get a lot of those plastic Amazon things which they claim are recyclable. But it actually puts on there less less material use than cardboard, or boxes on there. They'll tell you oh look, this is lighter, this less, you know, they'll get in boxes and stuff like that. Cardboard isn't isn't going to kill us. Cardboard people put cardboard down for mulch for their plants to grow better. So I'm sitting here I'm sort of sitting here going, you know, who are you? Who are you kidding here? You know, maybe it's lighter, you don't have to hit don't have to have as much gas. But hey, change to electric delivery vans. So

Melissa Valliant: 28:27

I have a point to that too. Do you want me to happen? Sure, go ahead. I think it's also important to discuss what plastic recycling looks like compared to other materials like aluminum and glass. A lot of people don't realize that aluminum and glass can both be recycled infinitely. So you can take a glass bottle and it can be recycled into a glass bottle have the same value the same quality infinitely plastic. If you take a plastic bottle plastic single use bottle it will be recycled maximum twice until it becomes something like carpeting or cheapen edge clothing. So the point being is something that will not be able to be recycled. So in that way plastics recycling is not exactly recycling the plastic waste but just kind of delaying the inevitable entrance into the environment.

Dina Rasor: 29:39

Yeah, I mean you can I found that I got a bunch of old bottles. They're not worth they're not old enough to be worth anything but their glass and I'm sure they're 50 6070 Maybe 100 years old, but I can take them down to the recycling bin and Those things sentence, somebody dug him out of a pond somewhere and thought maybe I'd be interested in him or something. But that those things, you know, shows you that you can do that you would never, by the time you get to plastic that probably would have deteriorated over that time and to the micro nano particles. Yeah, Greg?

Gregory A. Williams: 30:20

Yeah, before we run out of time, I want to make sure that we cover the whole environmental justice aspect of plastic manufacturer, you know, having to do with where it's made and who it affects and how it doesn't affect all of us equally.

Melissa Valliant: 30:39

Yeah, so plastic has plastic is a multifaceted issue, and that it negatively affects so many things. We know it affects the environment, we know it affects climate, we know it is having an impact on human health. And then there is the environmental justice aspect. So communities of color and low income communities are disproportionately impacted by plastics pollution. That is because plastic production facilities are typically cited in environmental justice communities, which is again communities of color and or low income communities. And this is intentional, because these companies are citing their polluting facilities and areas that don't necessarily have the means to fight back. They kind of sneak in most of the time to pretty quietly, so that these residents are just they have no idea that this is going to be the consequences that they're going to have to live with that their families are going to be exposed to moving forward. It's the same case for a lot of waste management sites. So landfills, also typically cited around environmental justice communities. incinerators, which are awful for the environment and human health with the toxic air emissions that they have. Those are also cited in environmental justice communities. And then there's, you know, waste pickers overseas. So when a lot of our plastic recycling gets sent overseas, which does happen unfortunately, a lot of the plastic we're putting in our bins is just sent to poor nations in Asia that often don't have the capacity or the infrastructure to effectively recycle it either it can get burned, and those local communities polluting those residents. And then also were their waste pickers sorting through plastic to see what is actually recyclable. Those workers are being exposed very personally and intimately to plastics impacts as well.

Dina Rasor: 33:00

I in the United States, when, like the Permian Basin as areas, you know, when they used oil wells, and polluted and had spills and all this kind of stuff. And, you know, they were local communities, they call them sacrifices, they openly call them sacrifice zones, and I was sort of shocked when I first burst into that he was like, Okay, this is bad, but are you gonna you're actually going to admit this. And I think that they just had gotten so used to the fact that these are distant feel like disenfranchised communities and so they can do what they want. I mean, you know, the member of Congress is going to say, oh, but it brings in jobs you know, or you know, in this kind of stuff, so there's just not a lot of it and honestly, there just isn't a lot of awareness I think on plastic and people know that there's a if there's a coal plant sitting there puking out viscous pollution and then you've got the tailings which are ongoing, you know, the that are leaching into the water table and all that kind of stuff. But they don't see that i The one thing I think that's probably making it hard to get people to understand it now you show him the giant flotillas of trash and it's gotten into a whirlpool and state you know, big like the state of New Jersey kind of trash, but they don't see the the micro and nano particles. Once it gets to that stage it basically is out of sight the public so they're filling up their glass drinking the glass I have no idea that this is full of micro plastics. So what are you guys doing to try to have an awareness of in my understand that they've actually found a filter that they could use for microplastics not nano but micro but what do you got to do, you know, filter the whole ocean? Well, I guess you can Start by having water, water systems try to filter it out. So you don't drink it I don't know is there is that just trying to empty the ocean with a teaspoon kind of approach.

Melissa Valliant: 35:14

This is a tricky subject to discuss, because the plastics industry would prefer we talk about cleanups, rather than policies that reduce the amount of plastic that's produced in the first place. And so cleanups can sometimes be seen as a distraction. Because it's like I said, with the analogy about the the tub overflowing and not turning off the tap, first, we need to turn off the tap, otherwise mopping it up, is not going to do enough. And you're gonna keep getting this influx of water, in this case, plastic. It can't hurt for things like here in Baltimore, we have Mr. Trash wheel, which he's he's got his own personality with googly eyes. It's this cool infrastructure on the Jones Falls that collects pollution and trash as it flows into the harbor. And that's great. But as you mentioned, that's not going to do anything for microplastics or nanoplastics, those things aren't going to be found. Nor are they going to be found by some of the bigger operations, like the ocean cleanup, which is attempting to clean up gyres, we can only do so much and it definitely won't have an impact unless we're cutting plastic production and plastic use.

Gregory A. Williams: 36:41

I just want to mention that many of these, these plastic plants that are the ones that produce the pellets that are shipped all over the world to be made and have finished plastic goods are created or, you know, their value proposition comes in large part from the the fact that natural gas is now so inexpensive, especially in the United States. And so there's this sort of illusory value proposition of we can cite this plant in your, in your tat tax district, and you can collect a lot of taxes on this. Meanwhile, the plant is sort of producing problems at both ends. It's using a tremendous amount of energy, typically, by burning natural gas, and then it's increasing the quantity of plastics that are flowing into the environment and releasing toxic chemicals. In the meantime.

Melissa Valliant: 37:40

Yeah, I think, I don't know if you all have heard of cancer alley. Have you heard of cancer alley?

Gregory A. Williams: 37:46

Yeah, we have, but not all our listeners.

Dina Rasor: 37:49

Yeah, Louisiana and Texas. I know. It's we're,

Melissa Valliant: 37:54

yeah. So Louisiana and Texas, the golf areas where plastic companies are setting up shop, most of the time, it's also spreading to Appalachia now, so we're seeing it in Ohio and Pennsylvania as well. And as I mentioned, it's always in these typically black or, and or low income communities. And cancer Alley is one that has been going on for decades and continues to get built out by plastic with plastic production facilities. But the cancer rate is so much higher there than the national average that it has earned the moniker cancer alley. I have been lucky enough to hear from people who live their advocates that are fighting for their own communities for their own families. And it is alarming and heartbreaking what we hear from them, of how many people that they've lost to cancer. We just would be on plastics did a media briefing back in, I think it was February feels like ages and it's only March. But we did a media briefing in Port Arthur, Texas this year. And that is really the belly of the beast for plastic production. We actually did a toxic tour where we could stop at different plastic production plants. Obviously we couldn't get it go in none of the companies are going to welcome us onto there. But we stood outside of the private property check out like exactly where these were located, what it looks like and what it could be affecting. One of them was It was literally a school, sports field athletic field with all of these, you know, high school sign signage everywhere and surrounding it was those smokestacks and have toxic chemicals coming out of it and it was just eye opening. People don't realize exactly A I think most people don't realize that this is impacting people on that kind of level. And unfortunately, I don't think it gets the media coverage it deserves, either. It's something that we're increasingly working on and I know environmental activist everywhere increasingly trying to, to amplify to the community.

Dina Rasor: 40:21

Okay, well, what what's currently being done to reform legislation, what ultimately needs to be done to fix start to fix the problem? What type of cleanup can be realistically done? And I know you talked about starting stopping the production. Go ahead, Greg. Yeah, yeah.

Gregory A. Williams: 40:39

So when we say clean up, I think we mean, from beginning to end, you know, clean up as in pre emptive, clean up, before the mess happens. And retroactive Clean up, clean up after the mess happens?

Dina Rasor: 40:53

I mean, could we start to mine the, the big plastic Block blob that's out in the size of New Jersey? Or has so much of that deteriorated into, to micro things? I mean, I would think that you, it'd be easier to go out there and scoop up this stuff and recycle it, then it would be to make new new virgin plastic, would that work.

Melissa Valliant: 41:19

But then again, even if you were hypothetically able to collect all of that plastic and recycle it effectively, which isn't realistic, but if you could, that recycled plastic is going to be not just as toxic, but even more toxic, unfortunately, than the Virgin plastic products that we use, why the toxicity increases when it is recycled. And so even if even if it was a virgin plastic, you know, products made from fresh plastic, that's still concerning, it still comes with the health impacts the health risk. So again, it's recycling plastic, even if we could do it on a large scale is not the answer. It's not going to clear us of the health risk associated with plastic. We really need to get policies on the local, state and federal level, and even international because that's something that's happening now we're having plastic talks on the international level, global UN treaty talks around plastics, the next one is actually coming up in April, in Ottawa, Canada, to reduce the production and use of plastic, we've been seeing that in the United States, obviously, with plastic bands, plastic bag bans, plastic straw bands were some of the first ones to come out. And it was plastic, bad bands, we've also seen a lot of polystyrene bands in the past five or six years. That's what's known as Styrofoam, often, and some reductions in foodware, plastic foodware. So we need more of that on a more comprehensive level. And paired, of course, with ways to improve waste management systems like recycling. But without the reduction, we're not going to get anywhere.

Gregory A. Williams: 43:14

So very much like burning petrochemicals, you know, it's much better not to burn it to begin with than it is to try to catch her efforts been burned. Likewise, with plastic, it's much better to never make it to begin with never, you know, drill the oil out of the ground and make it into plastic than it is to try to recycle it or otherwise remediate the problem, after you've drilled up on all that oil and made it into plastic. Absolutely.

Dina Rasor: 43:43

Okay, so what what kind of what's going on in the Congress? What's going on, you know, on reform, what's going on with the White House, the EPA, is EPA doing anything about it? I mean, what do you see? And I don't want to spend the whole hour talking about ain't it awful, because, you know, people, people have already got a bunch of awful stuff they have to listen to every day. And so what I always tried to do is okay, what if you were going to the world, you know, what would you do to start turning this around?

Melissa Valliant: 44:17

So, there is a bill in Congress being considered called the break free from Plastic Pollution Act. This takes a very comprehensive approach to the issue, which is exactly what we need. It includes, you know, eliminating or phasing out certain single use plastics. It also includes a moratorium on new plastic production facilities. And it includes protections for fenceline communities or environmental justice communities that are so intimately impacted by plastic. This is a great solution to the plastic pollution issue. It's something that I would love to see passed. On the state level in New York State, there's actually a model bill. It's the perfect state bill that if we could just get it passed in New York and have it replicated in the CEP, you know, all other states, ideally, we would be making huge inroads in curbing plastic pollution in the United States. And just like the break free from Plastic Pollution Act, it's it takes a comprehensive approach where it's reduction, but also figuring out how to improve waste management systems like recycling. It's called the packaging reduction and recycling infrastructure act. It's a little bit of a mouthful, so I always struggle

Dina Rasor: 45:47

with it. Did it pass or it's still pending.

Melissa Valliant: 45:51

It is in session right now. And we are hoping that that it'll come to a vote, and we'll have it passed. But we are pretty optimistic about it. And hoping that Goliath that we're going against, is not going to kill our chances at this belt, because the amount of money that goes into lobbying on their side and swaying these lawmakers is what is progressing or preventing progress. For us around the country to have something like this passed would be huge.

Dina Rasor: 46:26

Does the EPA follow this at all? Do they try to follow? I mean, do they have a reporting system on how much plastic is going in? I know they're doing probably doing some research, but are they doing any kind of monitoring of the plastic industry? Um, he said sounds like it's not a yes or no answer.

Melissa Valliant: 46:50

It's not. While the EPA is aware that plastic pollution is an issue, there definitely is a need for more tracking and monitoring of how much plastic is being generated in the US and how much waste we're dealing with because of it. The EPA actually is considering something that would be huge right now in terms of plastic and human health. vinyl chloride is a known human carcinogen we've known it's a human carcinogen for 50 years now. And it is the primary ingredient in PVC plastic. So PVC plastic is what lines a lot of people's drinking water pipes, some of their flooring. It's in our children's toys like the rubber duckies that kids chew on and which is pretty horrendous when you think about the whole human carcinogen part of it. But the EPA last December announced that they were considering banning vinyl chloride, they're considering making it one of five chemicals that they would evaluate do a risk assessment for under Tosca, which is the Toxic Substances Control Act. And so we are currently I think, today, actually March 18, is the last day for public comment. We submitted beyond plastics submitted its public comment today to the EPA, and we are keeping our fingers crossed. Again, we're going against Goliath here, but we are keeping our fingers crossed that the EPA stays strong. And includes vinyl chloride is one of the chemicals that it'll follow through with banning.

Gregory A. Williams: 48:37

So just for the the amateur chemist in the audience, what is the difference between poly polyvinyl chloride and vinyl chloride?

Melissa Valliant: 48:48

So vinyl chloride is an ingredient in polyvinyl chloride plastic, and 99% of all the vinyl chloride produced is produced for polyvinyl chloride plastic or PVC plastic.

Dina Rasor: 49:05

And, am I wrong that the vinyl chloride something hitting my inveighing was Where is where that train wreck in Ohio where they had they had tanker cars of it, they were afraid it's gonna blow up so somebody and of course now they're saying is the world's worst thing you could have done? Somebody said let's just burn it off. They just burnt those these things were not leaking or they're sitting there and they that Oh, but it might blow up. Well, yeah, but they ended up burning off tank after tank after tank in the in the public in that little town. I forget what it's called.

Melissa Valliant: 49:47

And I'm really saying, Yeah, policy

Dina Rasor: 49:49

and I'm sure and I know I've seen you know, interviews with them. It's like, Why the hell would you burn this stuff in our in our little town? And

Melissa Valliant: 49:57

they said at the time that the decision was made, as you said, To avoid any kind of combustion or explosion, but it has come out since then that that wasn't actually a risk. So it very much felt like the train companies need or urgency to get their trains back on track was prioritized over the health of the community. We actually have a relatively new staff member of beyond plastic. She's been here for almost a year. She's our Appalachia director, just Connor, and she is an East Palestine, Ohio resident, she had never done advocacy in her life until a train derailed in her backyard. And she has a kid. They experienced short term health issues. They're still fighting for an emergency declaration from President Biden. And she is actively fighting with beyond plastics now for a ban on vinyl chloride through the US EPA.

Dina Rasor: 50:59

Yeah, burning that. I mean, I would think that would put you put it up in the air, that means it could go miles, you know, and then the next rainstorm is going to push it all down into the water table. Know where, you know, it might not be these pellston it might be, you know, further over in West Virginia somewhere, but whenever, you know, whenever would cause it to come out of the air and water and stuff contained?

Melissa Valliant: 51:27

No. Yeah.

Dina Rasor: 51:28

So it's so everybody who was within the east of that that was in the wind blow. You have no idea when that when that those clouds dropped their chemicals, right.

Melissa Valliant: 51:40

And her hundreds of communities like East Palestine and the United States that are along those same railroad, railroads and tracks that carry cars with vinyl chloride is Palestinian was not the first to experience a derailment like that. And I don't think it'll be the last unless the Federal Government takes action to prevent the production of vinyl chloride in the first place.

Dina Rasor: 52:09

Well, um, that Debbie downer, Debbie Downer was

Melissa Valliant: 52:14

supposed to be in progress, like the talking to prep

Dina Rasor: 52:16

progress, at least at least, you're looking at it, at least the people are trying to fight it. But I didn't considering

Melissa Valliant: 52:24

it. I mean, this is huge. If we've known vinyl chloride was a human carcinogen for 50 years. sad that it took us this long to get to the point where it's like, hey, maybe we should assess it for risk considering it's in all of these everyday products that we touch every day.

Dina Rasor: 52:42

Big tanks, tankers all over the old railroads

Melissa Valliant: 52:47

into that big first step. And I think it's really important that people realize how big that is, so that we can hopefully get to the last step in this process.

Dina Rasor: 52:59

So really, what all of this we've talked about, kind of comes down to simple wording, and that is, I, you know, I was going to ask what kind of cleanup can be realistically done. And it's sort of like, don't do it in the first place. And I remember we had Bill McKibben on, and he had just who's on your board, who had just done a Atlantic Monthly article. And I asked him at one point, he thought it was a joke, but I was serious, I said, the title of this should be on a bumper sticker. And that was the earth is on fire, stop burning things. And that's the set and you know, what, anytime somebody comes up with carbon capture or some new, you know, pipe dream that they have, I'm sort of like, I use that in my head to say, Okay, we should not burn it, try to capture it, and then take it out of the ground, burn it, try to capture it, put it back in the ground, you know, with pipelines and all those other popular things. And so that gives me clarity when it comes down to climate and it sounds like the same kind of thing could be applied to plastics, you know? Don't you know the pollution the pollution is over whelming us don't try to clean it up. Clean it up. Don't try to see Thank you can clean it, keep cleaning it up? Stop making

Gregory A. Williams: 54:35

it pretty much that 90% of living things have plastic in their bodies. Yeah.

Dina Rasor: 54:40

Where are we gonna wait till it's 100% There is no place to go in the world. I mean, I occasionally go to Hawaii and snorkel and I look now I think all those beautiful fish have the plastic in them because of course, you know,

Melissa Valliant: 54:56

on the consumer level, I will say I understand the need I understand how consumers want to be empowered, like they see this problem of plastic pollution, and they want to do something about it. And I love that.

Dina Rasor: 55:09

Them individuals

Melissa Valliant: 55:11

doing cleanups is not going to hurt anything. But I do want to throw out there that I feel like individuals can better use their time and efforts by, for example, submitting public comment to the EPA, supporting the banning of vinyl chloride or urging their local elected officials to pass single use plastic bands in their community, or even if they have certain institutions that they're very involved in, whether that's a school or a church, trying to create a plastic free zone there, that's going to have an even bigger impact than, you know, just the time and effort that it takes for their two hands to pick up trash on a coastline. So there are ways to help. I just want individuals who are listening to know that it's not a hopeless scenario, if anything, we need more consumers, individuals to be pushing policymakers the same way that my organization and other environmental organizations are pushing them. Because if they're hearing from the people who are voting them into office, that's gonna have a lot of sway.

Dina Rasor: 56:24

So you're saying, it makes you feel better that you switched off to these laundry sheets, and you don't throw them a plastic jug anymore? You very careful how you recycle, or you're gonna go up, go up and down the street and pick up litter and all that kind of stuff. And that's not a negative thing. But if you really want it, yeah, if you really want your your if you really want your time to work, call your local officials say why don't we have this law, that's probably 10 times better than how many plastic jugs you can pick up in two hours.

Melissa Valliant: 57:03

Yes, but absolutely refuse plastic where you can do we always forget that we were taught the three R's, right in school like reduce, reuse, recycle. But recycle is the only one that's really talked about. And it's the third one for a reason. It's the least impactful. Reduce and reuse are even more impactful and reduces this amaz refusing for me, so you go out to a restaurant and they offer you, you know that they're going to offer a plastic straw because you see plastic straws and people's drinks around you say when you order your drink, can I go no straw, you know, anything that you can do to refuse plastic, bringing your reusable bag to the grocery, for example. Plastic, do it, but also be a local advocate, because we need more of that push from communities to activate lawmakers to pass the policies that are going to have the big impact.

Gregory A. Williams: 57:58

Yeah, I was gonna maybe sum it up by saying you know, don't buy the plastic product and seek to recycle it refuse the plastic product, there are alternatives.

Dina Rasor: 58:09

out there. I know there's a guy in Southern California that every day he goes, he's on Facebook, he goes out and picks up trash in the mountains and comes in and, you know, literally staggers into with these giant bags of trash and everything. And that's good. I mean, that's good. It's helpful. But I just wonder that I always say to people, sometimes it feels like we're trying to empty the ocean with a teaspoon. You know, where if you really want to do this, you need to go to your local officials. And be Don't, don't be surprised that you you know that you can get places with local officials have enough people concentrate on it. And you know, they of course will say they're for this, because they're always for something, whatever you come in for, but then say, you know, then get specific how what are you doing? What is the state doing? What is the local people doing? You know, if it's a member of Congress, what are you doing in Congress? What kind of what kind of structural legislation or something are we doing to change this so that we don't keep making it.

Melissa Valliant: 59:16

And also FYI, beyond plastics has a host of local and Group affiliates throughout the country, it's over 100 now, so we're working on the grassroots level with communities and would be happy to welcome any new members. So if you would like to learn more about what you can do in your own community, or how to try to pass policies or get policies passed that reduce single use plastic use, you can go to be on plastics.org There are so many resources there fact sheets on just about any plastics issue that you could find and also to sign up for emails or reach out to us about ways that you You can help

Dina Rasor: 1:00:02

some otherwise. Otherwise, if you're depressed, we're gonna have well, we will publish their website, go find whatever takes you off the most, get the information sheet and do something about it. That's pretty much what you would suggest.

Melissa Valliant: 1:00:17

Absolutely. And petitions are so easy to We have numerous petitions on the plastics issue, and it takes literally less than a minute to fill in. We've done all the work for you in writing the letter, all you got to do was put in your name, your email address, and click Submit.

Gregory A. Williams: 1:00:35

Well, that seems like a great note to end on. Is there anything else that you want to talk about before we sign off?

Melissa Valliant: 1:00:43

I'm trying to think I feel like there were a couple of things I wanted to note, I wish I had taken note of them. Well,

Gregory A. Williams: 1:00:49

I want to assure you that if you ever want to come back, we'd be very happy to have you. And so if you think of those things, we'll set up another time. We'll have another episode. Sounds great. Yeah,

Dina Rasor: 1:01:00

we had a local advocate that was trying to shut down the coal plant and have it switched over. And he's not in this switching over yet. But he they all said he was in Farmington, New Mexico, and were just awful. And one of those sacrifices and he actually was able to get the plant close. And now he's fighting to make sure it's not replaced with you know, blue or gray hydrogen, you know, kind of thing. So, when he had that victory, we had him back on because we are you know it we are really big on local activists and I, you know, look lactose was in the truth out Article Two, he was just relentless. And and so what I what I would like to tell you is when you have a victory, so you do something and it works. Email us, and we'll have you on. And because I'm not going to, I think we need to have 20 shows on this because it's just under the radar, and it's just as dangerous. It's just amazing to me how dangerous it is.

Melissa Valliant: 1:02:11

Well, thank you so much for highlighting the problem and taking the time to talk to me.

Gregory A. Williams: 1:02:16

Hey, thank you very much for being with us tonight.

Melissa Valliant: 1:02:21

Have a good one.