Project Nexus Solar Canals

To combat negative effects of climate change, we all need to do our best to reduce the use of fossil fuels, water and land. California is confronting all three of these challenges simultaneously with Project Nexus, a pilot project to:

1. Reduce the use of fossil fuels by deploying solar generation farms with battery storage.
2. Avoid taking land away from agricultural uses by deploying them over existing canals.
3. Conserve water by using solar arrays to cover canals, thus reducing evaporation.

This project is also an unusual nexus of public, private and academic institutions, bringing together the consultancy Solar AquaGrid as project manager, the California Department of Water Resources as operator of the canals and solar farms and the University of California Merced to provide scientific assessment of the project.
Joining us for this episode are ceo and co-founder Jordan Harris, chief creative officer and co-founder Robin Raj.

Jordan Harris co-founded Solar AquaGrid to address one of California's most urgent challenges: water scarcity. Before committing his energy to advancing large-scale sustainability projects, Jordan had a background as a social impact entrepreneur and music business executive, including co-founding and chairing Virgin Records US, as well as leadership roles at Sony Music and A&M Records. Jordan launched many high-profile projects and pro-social initiatives – among them, co-founding Rock The Vote to engage young people in the political process by engaging the entertainment community. Jordan saw the dual-use opportunity hiding in plain sight long before anyone else was ready to act on it, and led Solar AquaGrid in commissioning the University of California Merced 2021 research study that sparked Project Nexus. After nearly a decade of advancing the water-energy nexus from concept to construction, Project Nexus is the proof of concept he hopes will unlock replication across California and beyond.

In 2017, Robin Raj joined Jordan to co-found Solar AquaGrid to help conserve water and land, and generate renewable energy at scale by reimagining our water/energy infrastructure and covering large swaths of California’s exposed canals with solar canopies. As an award-winning creative director, veteran of purpose-driven communications, and founder of Citizen Group, Robin has harnessed the power of media, storytelling, and community engagement throughout his career to advance social responsibility, sustainability, and climate action for some of the world’s best-known brands and organizations for three decades – from Amnesty International, Bloomberg Philanthropies, NRDC, Sierra Club, Rock the Vote, and World Wildlife Fund, to Levi's, Major League Baseball, NBC Universal, Stanford Medicine, and Walmart Sustainability program.

In this episode, we cover such topics as:

• The scale of California's canal system, stretching 4,000 miles in total.
• How Project Nexus is funded through the California's general fund.
• How Project Nexus will be evaluated. 

For more information on Project Nexus and the organizations running it, see:

• ​Solar Aquagrid - Project Nexus
• Turlock Irrigation District - Project Nexus
• University of California Merced - Project Nexus

Transcript

Gregory A. Williams: 0:10

Thank you for joining us for another episode of Climate Money Watchdog, where we investigate and report on how federal dollars are being spent on mitigating climate change and protecting the environment. We are a private, nonpartisan, nonprofit organization that does not accept advertisers or sponsors, so we can only do this work with your support. Please visit us at climatemoneywatchdog.org to learn more about us and consider making a donation. My name is Greg Williams, and I learn to investigate and report on waste, fraud, and abuse in federal spending while working at the Project on Government Oversight or POGO 30 years ago, I learned to do independent research as well as to work with confidential informants or whistleblowers to uncover things like overpriced spare parts, like the infamous $435 hammers, and expensive military weapon systems that didn't work as advertised. I was taught by my co-host Dina Razor, who founded Pogo in 1981 and founded Climate Money Watchdog with me a few years ago. Dina has spent 40 years investigating and sometimes recovering millions of dollars wasted by the Defense Department and other branches of government, while at Pogo, as well as as an independent journalist, as an author, and as a professional investigator. Tonight, we're especially fortunate to have not one but two guests, giving us an opportunity to explore many angles of the complex undertaking of Solar AquaGrid, a firm whose projects simultaneously generate electricity and conserve water by covering canals with solar panels. With us are CEO and co-founder Jordan Harris, and chief creative officer and co-founder Robin Raj. We are hoping to have project scientist Brandon Kuhn with us, but she is busy, hard at work at at the project we're going to discuss tonight. Jordan Harris co-founded Solar Aqua Grid to address one of California's most urgent challenges: water scarcity. Before committing his energy to advancing large-scale sustainability projects. Jordan had a background as a social impact entrepreneur and music business executive, including co-founding and chairing Virgin Records U.S. as well as leadership roles at Sony Music and A&M Records. Jordan launched many high-profile projects and pro-social initiatives, among them co-founding Rock the Vote to engage young people in the political process by engaging the the entertainment community. Jordan saw the dual-use opportunity hiding in plain sight long before anyone else was ready to act on it, and led Solar Aquagrid in commissioning the University of California at Merced in a 2021 research study that sparked Project Nexus, the subject of tonight's episode. After nearly a decade of advancing the water-energy nexus from concept to construction, Project Nexus is the proof of concept he hopes will unlock replication across California and beyond. In 2017, Robin Raj joined Jordan to co-found Solar Aquagrid to help conserve water and land and generate renewable energy at scale by reimagining our water energy infrastructure and covering large swaths of California's exposed canals with solar canopies. As an award-winning creative director, veteran of purpose-driven communications, and founder of Citizen Group, Robin has harnessed the power of media storytelling and community community engagement throughout his career to advance social responsibility, sustainability, and climate action for some of the world's best-known brands and organizations for three decades, from Amnesty International, Bloomberg Philanthropies, NRDC, Sierra Club, Rock the Vote, and World Wildlife Fund, to Levi's Major League Baseball, NBC Universal, Stanford Medicine, and Walmart sustainability program. Welcome, Jordan and Robin. Dina, before we get started with questions, is there anything you'd like to say by way of additional introduction?

Dina Rasor: 4:31

Yeah, I I'd like to talk to the audience that doesn't really know about California and water because people just you know, but it it it it mostly does not rain here, and you know, for four or five months of a year, and people don't understand that we get fog, but we don't get rain, unless there's some you know some tropical storm or something, but California gets their water. A lot of their water from the, you know, we have we have the Sierras, which is on the eastern edge. We have Central Valley, and then we have the coast. And the Central Valley is where most of your vegetables and nuts come from in the United States. Very much farming, but there you wouldn't be able to do that except for the fact that the Sierras get an enormous amount of snow every year. I mean, you know, sometimes you're skiing. You look, what's the base? 120 inches base. You know, and people say, "Oh, that can't be back east. But that water is stored there. It comes down. It goes stays in reservoirs. But then you have to have canals, and a lot. The Northern California has less of a water problem than Southern California, and so a lot of that goes down in various canals through a massive canal system. Give you know helping the farmland get it water on the way down, and also also feeding into water-starved LA. You know, imagine this giant city that's constantly water-starved, and it's getting worse. And it and it that whenever you hear President Trump talk about the giant faucet, that you the water, you know, the water go is where the water goes and everything else, and some of the water has to go out through the bay, or you would, you know, the bay in San Francisco, or you dry up the whole ecosystem. He doesn't like that. He wants the faucet, you know, turn the faucet on over here, turn the faucet on over there. Well, it's not that simple, but they, I have driven, you know, clear from the northern very top of California down to the bottom, which in the Central Valley, which is a very long way. People don't understand how long California is, and I used to look out and see all this shimmering water. And in Central Valley in summer, gets to 100 degrees, and I thought, Wow, I wonder how much water they're losing, you know, just sitting there like that, and so when I saw this, I thought, finally, somebody's starting to try to do something, and so I was really pleased, and I'm really, I'm really as excited as you are, hopefully the lizards are, to find out what these these two guys with very interesting backgrounds got together and decided to work with UC Merced and the state to put this together, and and so therefore, I think that I think this is something that's really important, and I think it's something that also there. It is really true that you do not want to cover that some of the most fertile farmland in the country is in the Central Valley, and to cover yeah oh that's great because you know we have lots of sun, but you don't want to cover that farmland, and so this is another way of helping save that kind of stuff. So let me let me talk. So the first question, if I got anything wrong there, tell me because I'm an amateur at this. I've read up on it, but I'm an amateur. You guys are experts. So for people who haven't heard of Solar Aquagrid, how do you how do you describe what your company does and and your roles in each of your roles in Project Nexus, either one can go first. It's fine.

Robin Raj: 8:26

Sure, this is Robin, and I'm happy to start. Thank you for having this conversation and inviting us. Maybe the place to begin is to describe what Solar Aquagrid is not. We're not a traditional developer. We're not selling a particular product. In fact, we're technology agnostic. We really act as an advisory, an advocacy, and envisioning firm. The artful term imaginering has been used in terms of designing outcomes following the development in this case of solar canopies over our canals, following the development from concept through implementation, and that involves you know acting as a catalyst to match partners, the appropriate technologies, the community stakeholders around local use cases, and really our mission-we we talk about it in three parts. One is to study in order to scale. Let the science guide us. Number one. Number two is to define the solution set. You know, people often ask,"Well, how much does it cost to cover our canals? The first trap is the word "it, because there's not a single solution. It's not one and done. There's a variety of technologies that we're involved with. Testing in real-world conditions, and that was our first pilot you referred to, Project Nexus. We'll be talking more about that. But defining the solutions-that's number two. Number three is to is to stimulate the sector. That this is a need that needs to be addressed, and from the original feasibility study that Jordan and I first initiated about 12 years ago with UC Merced, the the nature sustainability peer-reviewed paper they did it had projections of what would be possible if you were to cover all 4,000 miles of California's canals, and we'll we'll say up front we're not delusional enough to think all 4,000 miles should be or can be covered. There's technical suitability requirements. We'll get more into that, but clearly our research and experience to date shows there are miles of plenty of strategic segments of the canals that should be covered and can pay back in terms of multiple benefits. So stimulating the sector to innovate so we can get this work done, and that's a very long answer, but I hope it covers territory. We'll we'll get further into.

Dina Rasor: 11:45

Sure. Well, let's take you take us back to the beginning. You know, how did you guys two get together, and how did you come up with the idea of doing that that many years ago? And was it a concept that was already banging around, or that you guys actually came up with yourself over coffee sometime and said, "Oh, let's do this. How did that? What was the kernel that got the the got the plant going?

Robin Raj: 12:15

Let's let Jordan tell that story because it it came from him to me, and while Jordan wasn't the first one to have this idea, we've subsequently learned many people had thought about this, but when he brought it, we couldn't shake it and let Jordan tell that story.

Jordan Harris: 12:35

Well, Dina, much as you described the state of California, living in here in San Francisco, traveling through the middle of the state to Los Angeles, you parallel the California Aqueduct and the State Water Project, which is a wide canal, and we've had year after year of drought and water insecurity, so so you really can't help but wonder how much water are we losing to evaporation. So for me, I had no idea at the time that others had thought about this. It seemed obvious enough that it should be, but because I've lived a lot of my life in France, where the canals are tree-lined and shaded, you know, protected from the sun and wind, that's what really got me thinking about about this, and then really starting to dig into it and learning that, you know, you mentioned water isn't as big of an issue here in Northern California as in Southern California, but in California, 75% of our water comes from north of Sacramento. 80% of the use is in the South. As a result, we have the largest water conveyance system in the world, over 4,000 miles of canals. So then, digging deeper, finding that the biggest use of energy in the state of California, 19 to 20% of our electricity goes to moving and treating water. So we became really fascinated by this energy, water energy nexus, and felt strongly that we needed academic support, and we started to look at where the best scientists and researchers could be within the the University of California system. There's a head of UC Solar. There's a head of UC Water. Both those professors happen to be at UC Merced in the Central Valley, and one of them, Roger Bales, is also the head of Sierra Nevada Research Institute. So these two professors really represented the nexus we wanted to study. So the the steps were: we had to go out and raise money to fund this study. We did this most extensive look at this concept, this feasibility study, this white paper that was later published, peer-reviewed and published in the journal Nature Sustainability, it garnered a lot of interest globally, but also fortunately at the state level here in California with the governor, and which led to$20 million of funding to do a pilot project to take the next step from the promising results that the feasibility study pointed out to doing an actual pilot to get to proof of concept, and we were asked by the state to identify a host location, and we chose one in the Central Valley Turlock Irrigation District, and were able to to really choose sites that represent a cross section of California's canals, from narrow ones to wide to wide ones, and we worked in two locations. We've spent over four years on that project, and we just completed it. The results not only meet what the feasibility study had forecast, but in some cases exceed it in terms of reduced evaporation lost, energy production reduction in aquatic weed growth, which is major. It's it's it's a huge maintenance headache for any canal operator that causes them to spend a lot of money on labor and dump a lot of chemicals in the in the water, and you know all the while we were thinking, and as you go along, you learn there are more questions to answer, and so partnering. So we created this public-private academic partnership, and that collaboration looked like the state of California, represented by the Department of Water Resources, the University of California as a research partner, the the utility, the district, which is Turlock Irrigation District, and we're the private entity, Solar Aqua Grid, which then led led to a scaling study, and we call it the California Solar Canal Initiative. And this we're two years in on on this work, but it is a partnership with USC School of Public Exchange, along with faculty researchers from seven different California universities, with the goals of looking at what public policy can be put in place to accelerate the adoption of solar canals, and number two, getting to a true cost analysis by monetizing the benefits and looking at various ownership financing models, and then finally, we're responsible to deliver to the state a GIS mapping dashboard to identify the top locations across this four 4000 miles of canals. So that's my long-winded answer to what we've been doing the last dozen years. But it's very well

Dina Rasor: 18:58

that well that that's that's Really interesting, and that when you when you pitched this to the state of California, what was the original version? Was it always planned to be a statewide model or just a one-off demonstration?

Jordan Harris: 19:16

Absolutely planned to be a statewide model, as you're probably aware. Here in California, we've committed to goals both both on renewable energy and land conservation. So by by 2060, by 2030, 60% of our energy needs to come from renewable sources. By 2045, 100% of our energy needs to come from renewable sources. At the same time, the state has committed to something that's called 30 by 30, protecting 30% of open space by 2030. So to satisfy the 2045 goals, at. At the same time, conserving land and natural spaces, you need to really look at building over already disturbed spaces. There, there simply isn't enough land to satisfy that. So, which means looking at every rooftop, every every parking lot, and and in in the case of our work, over 4000 miles of canals that potentially could be covered, and so this use of already disturbed land, and in a sense the opportunity to reimagine infrastructure, right? Because the needs in California are great, and honestly, our health and prosperity are dependent on water and energy. You said earlier about it's over 50 percent of the country's fruits, nuts, and vegetables come from California, and that that is all dependent on irrigation.

Gregory A. Williams: 21:11

Do you have a sense of how much water leaves the state each year in the form of lettuce, tomatoes, nuts?

Jordan Harris: 21:19

Well, 80% of the state state's water goes to agriculture,

Gregory A. Williams: 21:24

but I mean, some of that stays on the ground, evaporates, returns in rain. Some of that, you know, winds up getting put in containers and shipped elsewhere. I mean, there are controversies around Middle Eastern nations who essentially import water into their countries by growing hay in the United States and shipping it over there and feeding it to horses,

Jordan Harris: 21:46

and and and this is becoming a huge topic in in areas like the southeast corner of California, where Colorado River water, for instance, Imperial County has the most senior right to the Colorado River water, right? And you know, a lot of the products you're talking about are grown there, and it's it's a very very fertile land due to this water. But we all read about how strained the Colorado River is, and the seven states in Mexico that are dependent on it. So opportunities to conserve water at a time. By the way, the state of California is projecting to have 10 percent less water by 2040 than it currently has, right? So, yeah. So it it's it's imperative that we really study potential solutions to conserve that water.

Dina Rasor: 22:59

Okay. Well, why don't we describe your your two project sites in practical terms? Location, lengths of canals, panel configuration, how much power are they producing, and then of course there's also the narrow span and the wide span, which I would I would assume the wide span's harder, but I'm not an engineer, but but but that whole just describe what what's already there now that you have built and that is now the thing that you're going to be measuring from now on to see what works.

Jordan Harris: 23:36

Indeed, and and I should start by saying when the state asked us to identify a hoofs location, and we we met with many districts across the state. We were drawn to Turlock Irrigation District for a number of reasons. Ironically, they happen to be the very first irrigation district in the state of California. They're like 135 years old. Their water comes from the Tuolumne River out of Yosemite, and they have over 250 miles of canals within their district of various widths and orientations, and they also happen to be one of only a half dozen districts that are also a power provider, so they would be the off taker of the power, right? They're in both businesses, so they become low-hanging fruit in in that sense. But when I said earlier we wanted to be able to test arrays that really represent the state's water systems, from narrow canals to wide aqueducts, and so we chose two sites at Turlak Irrigation District. The first site, the narrow canals are 20 to 25 feet wide, and we chose a site that encircles on three sides a 40-acre regulating reservoir. This would allow us to study both east-west deployments and north-south deployments. So, with the east-west deployments, we angle our arrays south, which is the most advantageous way, and with our north-south ones, we angle them west. So we built there, and we built several different designs to study and embedded storage. The designs go from traditional steel beam, not dissimilar to what you would see from a carport, right? Carport manufacturing it. And with that, we covered we covered around 1,500 feet of canal there, and produced 800 kilowatts of power. We also did an experiment with some vertical bifacial panels, and and vertical bifacials are generally used in extreme northern latitudes, where the sun's always going to be rather low, or where you would have snow piling up on them. So the idea of these vertical panels makes a lot of sense there. But where it makes sense around canals is if you don't have wide enough service roads to be able to build build a structure, so we did that, and then in our quest to innovate and reduce materials, reduce costs, and improve efficiency, over the course of the time, we became aware of a very innovative product, a retractable structure. Now, the irrigation district puts various constraints on us in that the arrays have to be a certain height off the ground so they can get equipment and bodies under there to do any required maintenance or emergency maintenance on the canal liners, etc. So if we have to be eight feet up, that means you know the height of the steel plus the foundations. You know you're talking about a fair amount of material. With this retractable system, it runs on rails, and it concentiners together, and and it can be moved out of the way to to allow access for maintenance. At the same time, being closer to the water puts a better cap on evaporation. We didn't have to do foundations that were 22 feet in the ground. There are footings that are three to four feet deep without any concrete. So this is an example of what we had hoped to see innovation that will improve everything and and reduce costs. And then the wide span is really the headwaters, if you will, of their 250 mile system, and it's it's wide in that very similar to the State Water Project, the California Aqueduct, and others. It's 115 feet wide, and it feeds the whole system. So we we took a section of that, and it ends up being about 130 feet wide by 300 feet long, and that again is 300. I'm sorry, 800 kilowatts of power, and the beauty the beauty of working with somebody that's in the power business is they have distribution and transmission lines that parallel almost all their canals, so the interconnection is quite short. And as you probably know, with renewables, the most expensive piece is transmission lines, and that we put that in. So, so it it was really sensible, and you know we we built in these two locations. Our partners at UC Merced have sensors collecting data under all these arrays, and it's it it's been quite quite encouraging and pleasing to us to collect the data of a full irrigation season and start to see how much water is being saved and and the reduction in aquatic weed growth, etc.

Dina Rasor: 29:53

Okay, and then how do the iron flow batteries fit into the project? Because are they just a demon? Are they critical to making the canal solar work work on the grid? Because you know, solar has become. I mean, solar has become so necessary to have battery systems because you know, because there's there's evening. Yeah, yeah. I think even in California, all

Jordan Harris: 30:18

all agree storage is key to the future of renewables, and it's it's really great for TID Turlock Irrigation District to study how they might use it. And what they've been doing is, I mentioned that it where we have these arrays and where we have the batteries, it encircles this 40-acre regulating reservoir where they have giant pumps, and these pumps, you know, put water in and in and out of the canals. Well, they're using the batteries for that. You know, they're storing storing the energy during the day and using it at night. They also can maintain Voltage regularity. When there's cloud cover, they they can look at you know arbitraging it, storing storing the energy during certain times of the day and dispersing at other times. But it goes right into their grid. But it's an it's an important part of our work for sure.

Gregory A. Williams: 31:19

So, what percentage of the power that you produce is is used locally by the the water management systems?

Jordan Harris: 31:28

Well, I think that will come out in in the research study. I don't have those numbers. I can I can tell you, it goes into their grid. The only example in terms of their water management right now is at that regulating reservoir with with their pumps. I

Gregory A. Williams: 31:51

see. So you don't have any hyper local energy use, or at least not a significant amount that that's used before it enters the grid. It always goes into the grid and then comes back out to the grid to to these various synergistic uses.

Jordan Harris: 32:05

That's right because TID's canals are gravity canals. So if if there were needs for you know where there are needs for pumps is where the energy could be used.

Dina Rasor: 32:19

Yeah, I mean that that this reminded me. I mean, you've drive you drive down, you know, Central Valley's flat as a pancake, you know, and you drive down, but then you start going over the grapevine, and that's the mountains that you go over to get down into the LA basin, and I've looked there and seen them pumping the water over the hills, and I thought, wow, that's going to take some electricity to pump over the hills. So, is there an idea that that you in the places where you have to get you don't have gravity on your side? Is that the idea? One of the ideas is to take the electricity that's generated from these solar panels to use to help pump that over.

Jordan Harris: 33:01

Absolutely, and the plant you're talking about is called the Edmonston plant, and it pumps water. It's the biggest lift anywhere in the world, pumping water up uphill 2,000 feet over the Tehachapis, and that plant alone requires 40% of the electricity that the state water project uses. So yes, indeed, absolutely supporting that. If if you if you look to the left, you're looking to the right of the pumping station. If you look to the left in distance, you'll see a big gas plant producing electricity for that.

Robin Raj: 33:44

Interestingly, it might be news to most people that the state uses nearly 20% 19% of its state's of the state's electricity budget to move water. So that again further reinforces the interrelationship between water energy in making our state move and function.

Gregory A. Williams: 34:19

So do do you already have an idea of how much of the what what what fraction of the 4000 miles of of canal you would need to cover in order to fully address that energy usage? No,

Jordan Harris: 34:35

yeah, please. That that is a component of the work we're doing with the California Solar Canal Initiative to look at that and you know identify those opportunities and and we're looking at opportunities as tier one opportunity tier two tier three tier one opportunity would be adjacent to a pumping station where you don't need transmission right. Where that would be the offtake, we've looked at things like EV charging, and if you think about reimagining California highway rest stops and and charging infrastructure adjacent to the canals, where the energy to power people's cars is is coming from right right there, so so you know those tier one uses the example that we gave about TID with the adjacency of transmission and distribution lines on the canals are these are the places where you start,

Dina Rasor: 35:43

and I'd like to again for the audience to get them to understand because people don't understand how big California is, but also how many people we have almost 40 million people in the state, and so when you think and and anybody who's been to L.A. who's stood in the Hollywood Hills and looked out over L.A. This giant, massive sprawl grid of light, and you know San Francisco's a little bit is the Bay Area is a little smaller, but when you look at that and you say, "Wow, you know, think of all that electricity that's being used, and all that electricity you have, but it still takes 19 percent to pump this water down to you know pump this water down to LA, and it's such a large percentage when you finally realize there are 40 million people using electricity in the United States, but this water system is taking 19% of that. That is just an astounding statistic. Okay, well maybe next we ought to go through and start talking about the money, because you know critics always talk about the money, and critics always talk about crazy California doing their crazy stuff. Although then they end up incorporating it into the rest of the country. I think of how many things that we California is sort of like the spark plug of innovation, and and I'm sure there's other people that don't don't really believe that. But I've been here long enough with enough scientists to to know. So at

Robin Raj: 37:25

least we can all agree there's good crazy and there's bad crazy.

Dina Rasor: 37:29

Yeah, and our country has a lot of both. That's right. Okay, so who's paying for Project Nexus? How much of it is public versus private, and and how are the funds funds flowing to your to a solar aqua grid your organization?

Jordan Harris: 37:48

It is a publicly funded project by the state of California. The governor had put it in a May revise back in 2122, the legislature approved it, and so it's 100% state of California funding. It is managed by the California Department of Water Resources. They have a lot to gain from from what what's learned in this, it is first and foremost a research project. So the the funding goes. I described the public-private academic partnership that this is, with DWR being the state that's managing it, and to Turlock Irrigation District, and then University of California Merced, and then Solar Aquagrid. So the money kind of flows from Department of Water Resources to Turlock Irrigation District, and then they disperse it to the the researchers and our role as program managers that that manage the the whole undertaking.

Dina Rasor: 39:10

So how so what what percentage does your your company get on from state? Do you get state funding then to run what you're doing

Jordan Harris: 39:23

on this particular project, but but we end up being a consultant to the irrigation district.

Dina Rasor: 39:29

Oh, okay. So that's so basically, you're the irrigation district has got so much money to do this, and then you're you're a consultant to that. That's that's interesting. Okay, and and who who evaluates the success or failure?

Jordan Harris: 39:44

Well, certainly our partners at the state at the Department of Water Resources they've been receiving monthly reports for the last four years. They have just received a development report. That both SolarocGrid and TID have authored, which is really takes takes it through the whole project, and then UC Merced is just delivering a research study to to the state, and and they will also be collecting data and doing further research for the next four or five years.

Robin Raj: 40:31

Yeah, exactly. You know, these two reports are going to be are foundational to the learning. And as Jordan just said, one is the lessons learned report, the practical experiences, the good, bad, and the ugly of what we have been learning, and our experience through the development of these particular arrays. Separately, of that you, Seymour said, is authoring the scientific study, which is all about the data collected, but together they comprise the the sum of learning from Project Nexus that can be applied forward into the California Solar Canal Initiative in particular. So, as multiple pilots happen again, emphasizing it's not one and done. We have to test different technologies, A, B, C, D test them, and then, having defined a solution set, we can start to match specific technology solutions to specific canals and use cases based on their attributes. So that's what's coming. But these reports again are foundational part of the output of the project.

Dina Rasor: 42:00

Okay. Well, you know there are critics of the of your this project as as being one of the crazy California things because you know solar is evil and and you know not good and and you know we should maybe have a coal plant do this. I know you know, but the criticism gregory lumped it into the narrative that California does expensive, crazy things. So tell us, tell us, tell us why you think that's not true.

Robin Raj: 42:32

Yeah, that's a somewhat expected narrative, as you suggest, and you know, this is there's a responsibility to the taxpayers for the public good to pilot, we believe, these technologies and identify solutions to address climate, and that's what separated California from many, many other states. And I would just reinforce California didn't get to be the fourth largest economy in the in the world without innovation experimentation. This is a research project, and you know, it's a giant science fair project. But if it yields insights that do make it to scale, it's going to pay for itself in more ways than one, and that you know brings us to the the benefits, the co-benefits that we haven't really talked about yet, you know. Yes, there's reduced evaporation water savings. Yes, there's avoided costs by using already disturbed land. There's renewable clean energy generation for the various needs rapidly coming online. There's carbon mitigation, improved water quality. Sorry, improved air quality, particularly when you think about the Central Valley, and we could have a whole discussion on that. Health benefits, air quality, and then there are water benefits, water quality benefits, again by reducing the algae bloom, the aquatic weed growth, that translates to reduce real practical maintenance cost reduction for canal operators with less chemicals being put in the water, particularly when we're talking about drinking water, reduced chemicals in the water also matters, as well as you know if we have any hope, as Jordan said at the outset, of achieving the target. Set out that aren't arbitrary. They're following the science, saying what we need to do to adapt to our changing climate. It's all rather important.

Jordan Harris: 45:16

And and and if if I can just add that, you know, this this project was done on time, on budget, but I think it's important to really think about the fact that 1000s of years ago the Romans were doing this, moving water the same way, right? And they were just building canals,

Dina Rasor: 45:40

not building canopies, but yeah, that's right.

Jordan Harris: 45:44

And and you know, not using electricity to do it. And as our energy needs grow, as our water insecurity grows, and water needs grow, and be be it data processing centers using enormous amounts of both energy and water, the electrification of our transportation, etc. Our needs are growing, and you know this state has a history to be proud of of innovation and sustainability, and as as I said earlier, our prosperity is dependent on water and energy, and investment in conserving water and producing clean energy is critical right now.

Robin Raj: 46:36

And then I could layer in. There's also that. Issue of jobs that if this were to be done at scale, there's implications for job creation, and that's exciting too, as we see the kind of apprenticeships and education apprenticeships and application into careers in renewable energy development that are really on the horizon right now.

Dina Rasor: 47:14

Okay, well, there are also articles that love the idea, but there's still some skeptics on whether or not the canal solar can ever be cost competitive given the engineering complexity. Now I know you talked about not having to have such big structures, you know, and and trying to you know do it the the cheapest you are. But do you have any current cost per per kilowatt or per acre foot numbers that look like compared to conventional solar,

Jordan Harris: 47:46

we don't as yet. That's part of the ongoing study. I will tell you that our goal wasn't to build the longest and cheapest array. Our goal was to really understand and help the water districts answer a lot of critical questions. And you know, for the the state water project, we we are so respectful of the enormous responsibility they have delivering clean, reliable, safe water to 27 million people. Right, that it is most important to de-risk this, to not do anything that interferes in their operations. Our goal is to enhance their operations, and that's why we've partnered with the state, and we've worked so closely with these water districts in really understanding that. So, you know, we've worked really hard to not make this in any way a partisan issue, and we've we've got support from full cross section across the state, and you know the benefits everybody enjoys the benefits of having more water and cleaner air, and so there there doesn't need to to be any of that. And you know the key performance indicators that we're studying to answer all those questions: how it impacts wildlife, how it impacts communities and things like that, and you know we we've had it was interesting. We recently when we completed Project Nexus and we had a commemoration ceremony. One of the speakers was a farmer who is the board chair at Turlock Irrigation Day. And he told us this story of getting a phone call from this 93-year-old farmer, and any time he gets a call from this guy, he waits a couple of days because he's going to get an earful from this guy. He calls this guy back, and the guy says,"Michael, I just got to say these solar top canals are the smartest thing you guys have ever done, right? So, so look at I think we're all aware of a changing climate and the the impacts of it, and we've had tremendous support in in in in in so many areas, and and I have to say that we have learned so much in Project Nexus more than we ever expected to in in the first one. So it's it's been the most valuable venture for everyone concerned.

Gregory A. Williams: 50:57

So say a little bit about how the project impacted that farmer directly. Like why was he so positive about it? What what were the benefits to him personally?

Jordan Harris: 51:08

I I think water security, you know, is key to all these farmers, and and seeing the district that he relies on making efforts to ensure that water security is very meaningful.

Gregory A. Williams: 51:26

I see. But was there any direct, like, was he getting water more reliably? Was was he getting more water due to the the reduced evaporation, or or was he just happy to see that somebody was trying something?

Jordan Harris: 51:39

I think there's a sense of hope that somebody's trying something, doing something. You know, our project, given the district has 250 miles of canals, we haven't covered much of it, but enough to learn a lot for them to analyze how much more they should be covering or that they can be covering, and what the economics and what the benefits look like.

Gregory A. Williams: 52:02

Gotcha.

Dina Rasor: 52:03

And that to put that in context for our non-California people, water is such a commodity here that for decades and decades, if not a century, it's been it is a been a blood sport. There's always the farmers are always ticked off that you know the cities are getting too much of the water, or you're or the you know you're you're letting water get to the ocean, so therefore you're you know you're wasting water when if but if you don't you'll ruin you know ecological so that it has it the water wars in California go on for years. I don't know if anyone's ever watched the the movie Chinatown, and that is about L.A. water. I think was 1930s, 1930s or 1940s, and it was a it was you know basically a mob fight, you know everything because what L.A. just L.A. cannot exist without that kind of water. They just can't, you know, exist at all. So then the other thing is so and and and when you drive down the Central Valley, something happened with the water, and I I really don't know the issue, but they were allowing certain farmers were having to let certain of their almond trees die, and so they put up big giant "We hate Dianne Feinstein" things because somehow she had said no, we can't give you more water because it has to go to this ecosystem or something, and so you know the middle of the middle of the state is more conservative than the coasts, and so there's this constant yin and yang. But you can see that you know agriculture taking out such what did you say 80% of the water in the state. I mean that's enormous when you think of how many much the population is. So that doesn't find. So then, the other thing, of course, that people get upset about is esthetics and local impact and that kind of thing. Have you guys heard, other than the one you know, canal operators nearby communities? Anybody saying, you know, all your metal structures are messing up those beautiful blue water canals we see, or anything, anybody come up and and not in my backyard kind of attitude.

Jordan Harris: 54:27

Not not as yet. You know, it's interesting that the canals are not in a straight line. They follow the terrain. So you you have these interesting forms, and they're they're not natural, right? They're concrete, you know, highways of water, and but honestly, we viewed this as an opportunity to build something beautiful in a sense, like what Christo put put through through the countryside. That's right. Yeah, and you know, as you you're always wanting to orientate to what we call solar south, so you get these undulating forms that can be quite beautiful. I think what we built in a wide span is quite a beautiful structure. People have visited it and said this is feels like a cathedral. I mean, it's it. They can be quite beautiful forms, and I I think I think they can, to the public, viewing them, as I said earlier, be a sense of hope and an iconic symbol of California's commitment to sustainability and innovation. You know, there's always going to be somebody that doesn't doesn't like something something being built, but but the benefits are so great.

Dina Rasor: 55:57

Yeah, well, that's you know, that's just like I think people in in California, when they see a bunch of windmills go up, or they see big solar panel things on things, they think, "Oh, great! You know, now we're going to have more electricity and not some not so smoggy air, you know, and and and all that kind of stuff. But clean air, and and of course, we get the wildfire smoke where you get the fine particulates, and I think the East Coast has gotten a dose of that of what it's like. But there, you know, there's a lot of people in the Midwest family farm in Kentucky and stuff, and they do they they see solar panel. They've been convinced that solar panels are ugly and ruining the land, and windmills are ruining this this and you know and all that, and because they they don't have the they don't really understand or have the concept of what their coal plants are doing. You know the the the air is and with the air and everything else. So, I think that's why some people see windmills as a beautiful thing, and some people think they're, you know, ugly. But I think this is going to be probably the the same kind same kind of thing. So, okay, well, we've seen some announcements about Pinal Solar in Oregon, Utah, and on federal facilities. Are you guys involved in that those projects, and and how does this business model evolve outside of California?

Jordan Harris: 57:28

We we have worked closely with our congressmen here, Jared Huffman, and Congressman in the Central Valley Costas in securing federal funding in the Inflation Reduction Act during the Biden administration to funding pilot projects on reclamation canals and the Arizona project at the Gila Indian Reservation. They were recipients of just over $5 million of that 25 million. There's, I think, one and a half million for a project in Oregon, and maybe a couple million for a project in Utah, and then we were able to secure $15 million for a floating solar demonstration as Robin mentioned, we were looking to create a solution set of technologies, and floating solar is very interesting to us. It's widely used on reservoirs and lakes, as you would have seen, and it's fantastic on still water. It's a pontoon-based racking systems all tied together in the drain, fine on still water and moving water would be a tangled mess. So we we had identified some brilliant technology out of Norway, where they make these giant pods, and they successfully use them, have deployed them in the Philippines, in the North Sea, in the Baltic, and we wanted to test those, and we identified a California federal canal, reclamation canal called the San Luis and Delta Mendota, and the plan was to cover 1000 feet of of that canal with 30 meter diameter pods. And the the beauty of this is you really eliminate construction. You're it's just assembly, right? The the only construction is moorings on the shore to tether it to, and the plan was to gain access by we would have three of these circular pods a gap we called it our pearl necklace, and you'd have a gap and then three more in a gap so you could slide these things up and down. Stream to gain access, and and these things are assembled in days. It puts 100% cap on on the water on evaporation, and we were all set to go. And then it was allocated by Congress, and the new federal government put an indefinite hold on it, so we we haven't been able to test that. We haven't received any federal monies towards this, but it is our hope in the future to pilot this kind of technology and learn from it as well.

Dina Rasor: 1:00:39

You you just absolutely walked into my next question because I was going to ask you how much how much federal money you have and you're pursuing, or is the clinical climate just not going to work right now? Yes.

Jordan Harris: 1:01:01

Yeah, it's it's an it's an interesting moment. You know, fortunately, here in California, there's there's a big commitment to sustainability and finding solutions. But I will tell you that Project Nexus has garnered international interest. We've we have had interest from water districts all over the world, from Romania off the Danube where they're interested. Robin and I have met with three different Spanish water districts. We've met with a French water district. We've been invited to consult with an Egyptian canal operators. A team from Saudi has visited Jordanians. We've met with Vietnamese, Brazilians, Costa Rican. It's it's it's it's a global opportunity, and every everybody has similar needs.

Dina Rasor: 1:02:00

Well, think think about the desalination plants that those countries have to have, and then they're going to have to, you know, pump it with pipes or water or whatever, and you know there might be a situation there. Okay. Well, the other part is California is always being criticized and known for having a lot of things that hinder hinder progress because of the permitting rules regulations. I mean, and and and I can say that one of the things that Gavin Newsom did with the the massive fire we had in L.A. He cut back some of those at you know because this was a situation where you're the normal California regulations, it it does take a long time to build stuff in California and everything. But there's also a reason things like earthquakes and you know things like that. But did you guys find the California regulate framework? I know this is experimental, but even then, were were there things in the in the state and the county that you had to deal with?

Robin Raj: 1:03:09

No, you know, because we worked with Turlock Irrigation District directly and DWR, really, we didn't encounter any impediments on their side or sequa, you know, reviews that slowed us down. So going forward, as we think about statewide scaling, that's something we're going to be examining, and we have our team at UC USC Public Exchange and our research team, Jordan explained earlier, looking specifically at what policy and regulatory changes might need to be made to accelerate adoption and not hinder adoption. And

Jordan Harris: 1:04:04

if if I can just add that the beauty of working on already disturbed land is it reduces the the need for permitting. If you were going to build a solar farm adjacent to where we built these arrays, it would take years. You'd have you'd spend a lot of money purchasing land, and then you would spend a lot of money and a lot of time permitting, years up to a decade, where we got to work quickly, and you can also receive the benefits and the revenue from it quickly. So it's it's it's a huge economic incentive. Is

Gregory A. Williams: 1:04:51

there also an intrinsic benefit to working with a utility, a public utility like a water district? Do they already have environmental? Engineers on staff. Do they have familiarity with the the regulatory regimes, familiarity with the regulatory staff? So it it sounds like the the this is one of a number of ways where there there's real synergy between providing the water and and and getting power out of it.

Jordan Harris: 1:05:22

Absolutely, absolutely right.

Robin Raj: 1:05:24

Exactly.

Dina Rasor: 1:05:26

And are these water districts going also be responsible for the maintenance of it?

Jordan Harris: 1:05:31

Yeah. So this is the great piece for us is we've had this experience. I described it in an earlier meeting today about we got to see a huge cultural shift from the resistance to doing anything new, doing anything different can be threatening. To now, the the biggest advocates who support this are the operations people, the maintenance people, because they're seeing the benefits, and and they're skipping maintenance cycles because the canals are so clean, right? It

Dina Rasor: 1:06:14

can't be fun scooping algae. We saw the people in the in the reflected scooping algae is not not a fun job. But it

Jordan Harris: 1:06:26

blocks side gates. It's it's a real nuisance that they don't have to do. Or

Dina Rasor: 1:06:32

pouring peroxide into the look

Jordan Harris: 1:06:35

at

Dina Rasor: 1:06:37

that. Okay. Well, if we were to reconvene in 10 years. What would have to be true for you to say Project Nexus really changed how we do infrastructure in the West? What what do what do you guys see in the future? Go ahead, Robin.

Robin Raj: 1:06:53

I would say pure and simple implementation. It will be pretty empirical looking back in 10 years, we're fond of saying it's not a solution unless it scales. It's you know otherwise just a giant science experiment. But when we can quantify the benefits and de-risk, stimulate the sector to innovate to create the economies of scale and bottom line surface area coverage. We're on a quest for where does it make sense to cover? Where does it not? Who wants to who wants to lean in and apply broad-scale surface area implementation?

Dina Rasor: 1:07:51

Okay, and to help people out like us, journalists and watchdogs, what we should, what when it does scale up, what do you think we should keep our eye on? Where do you think that where they're you know I each water district is going to be different. It's going to be it's it's it's almost like FERC. It's going to be its own little fiefdom. What what kind of oversight and watchdog or journalism or even the state need to do to make sure that you know the contracting's being done and the and the things being done and there isn't a lot of graft or you know hiring your pool man to do it or something like that.

Robin Raj: 1:08:41

Do you want to go, Jordan, or should I?

Jordan Harris: 1:08:42

No, I was waiting for you.

Unknown: 1:08:44

Okay. Well,

Robin Raj: 1:08:46

part part of part of the safeguards are the direct engagement of the agencies together, and we've you know at this stage of development, of which of course is still early, we have the benefit of a really strong advisory council that is really cross sector, but having the benefit of people the likes of former State Water Board Chair Felicia Marcus, alongside the former GM of Turlock Irrigation District, Michelle Reamers, who was the first to raise her hand. You know, how does this answer the question of among all the constituents? That's part of the safeguard process that we're asking, interrogating with the right questions, and we get them all the time, and we say, "Bring it on, because we don't want to leave a stone unturned. In fact, if there are adverse consequences to coverage, we want to know about it. We want to know. About it early, so we avoid that. So I think the the nature of the the collaboration is so key to creating the safeguards necessary. And then on top of that, as I mentioned earlier, we have the team at USC Public Exchange, the broader California Solar Canal Initiative research team, looking at it the community benefits, how those community benefits accrue, that they are in fact shared equitably. There's a strong environmental justice component to the work and the research, so we're trying to look at it from the various perspectives, so we don't miss something.

Gregory A. Williams: 1:10:52

Did you have particular success metrics in mind when you began the study, or as part of the study, discovering what the relevant success metrics are?

Robin Raj: 1:11:01

We had KPIs from the outset, and we'll be reporting on those KPIs as part of the report. You know that I mentioned, and they have to do with obviously water and energy. You know hard metrics, evaporation, water quality, energy, of course, production and local grid use, storage, land is a relates to avoided land purchase and conversion, and the the reduced permitting costs. These are all KPIs. Operations experience of operations vis-a-vis reduced maintenance, wildlife response. That's a that's a key KPI. KPIs as they relate to climate and sustainability, and that speaks to life cycle analysis. So again, these solutions are various. So comparing them to see, you know, lowest material, less materials, less cost, more sustainable implementation, the likes of the solar pearl technology Jordan mentioned that eliminates traditional construction altogether. That can be very good for some canals. And finally, there's a KPI as it relates to community community Sentiment gets to be softer metrics, but you know how do people feel about it? That's important to the long-term scaling and success, as well as jobs, economic development, local economic development, and for the purposes of Nexus, you know, we sourced as much as possible our panels from Florida, U.S. manufactured. Our steel was local from Fresno, so that becomes part of the life cycle analysis. So long-winded answer to say yes. We defined these KPIs at the outset, and that's part and parcel of the reporting.

Dina Rasor: 1:13:29

Okay, I have a practical question that I just thought of. I have solar panels on my house because it doesn't rain for parts of the year. How do you keep them clean? How do you keep those solar panels clean and not losing their ability? Because I know that, especially when there's agricultural going through agriculture areas, you're going to have a lot of plowing and you know dust and even the highways and whatever. Just because I know I don't like getting on the roof trying to clean my panels. How do how do you keep them clean?

Jordan Harris: 1:14:03

I'm I'm I'm glad you brought this up because we talk about reduced maintenance in the canals, but there's a whole new maintenance on the panels. And you're right, in the springtime, there's a lot of pollen in the air that creates soiling. In the autumn during harvest, there's a lot of stuff stirred up, and the panels get dirty again. Fortunately, there's been some great innovation on robotics and automated panel cleaning, and there's even panel cleaning, for instance, in Saudi Arabia where they do it without water. We've done it with with a robotic system cleaning our panels, but we get to measure the performance when they're clean and when they're soiled, and that that that's part of the ongoing research. Did you find

Dina Rasor: 1:14:56

they're not as efficient when they're soiled? I mean, is is it a real big. A big deal because mine right now are filthy.

Jordan Harris: 1:15:04

You you you need you need to look in in the case of large arrays at the cost of cleaning versus how much productivity you're losing and when to do it. And we visited floating solar arrays one up here in Sonoma County in a wastewater treatment plant, and the the birds have made made a mess of of the of those panels. We haven't suffered any of that, but but it is some you know another component of our learning.

Dina Rasor: 1:15:42

Okay, well, what else would you like to add that we haven't asked you? We've asked you quite a few questions, unless Greg has another question.

Gregory A. Williams: 1:15:49

No. Well, I wanted to assure our listeners that we'll be posting links to these studies. So if you want to get really deep into the details of what these KPIs are exactly, that should all be available via links on our website.

Dina Rasor: 1:16:07

Anything we anything we haven't haven't covered?

Jordan Harris: 1:16:11

I think you've done a really excellent job. You know, we've taken a lot of your time. We're thrilled that you're interested in our work. We think it's potentially a very big solution to California's needs, but here in the West and and globally, and you know, so much more to learn as we've told you. But but the interest is encouraging, and we do know that the value of water is only going one way. And as you said earlier, it is really the currency here. And and you know, given given that, and given the fact that economies of scale and innovation are going to drive down the costs of of covering canals, while while the benefits, the value of the benefits only rise, there's a sense of inevitability in in our work that that many share. So watch this space. Okay.

Dina Rasor: 1:17:23

Well, your when your PR woman called called me back, and we were discussing, she says, "Well, you know, these guys like to get and kind of geek out and get into great detail. And I said, "We love geeking out, Greg and I are Greg. So I don't know what the listener is going to be by this time, falling asleep in the car while they're listening. But for us, we we love we love to get. I'm not a scientist, but I was raised by a PhD physicist, so I sort of gained that. That's how I think, you know, the problem solving and the and the technology. But I I just love. Well, that's one of the things we've been doing because you know there's not a lot of federal stuff to follow, so we're starting to look at well what's California doing and what's doing as solutions and what works and what doesn't work, and we really love the and you know I I'm just amazed at the innovation that because a lot of the federal money had been has been withdrawn and yet California says, "Okay, we're going to do it ourselves. And that's what's wonderful about being the fourth largest economy in the world, is that even that you know we're still balancing our budget, but we're still doing this. You know, okay, if the feds aren't going to do it, we're going to do it. And so that's I'm really glad that I'm really glad that we you agreed to come on and come in this detail. And I've got a feeling we have a niche audience that there's a lot of people like to geek out there too.

Robin Raj: 1:18:52

Absolutely, yes, yeah. Thank you for your interest. We're just grateful that we live in the state of California, where this is a priority, and we have leadership that supports this, as well as the community of interest that has just grown organically around this, and now you're part of it. So thank you so much.

Gregory A. Williams: 1:19:17

Sure. All right. Well, it's it's been our pleasure, and we certainly hope that you'll come back when when there's new progress to report.

Jordan Harris: 1:19:25

Love to, thank you.

Dina Rasor: 1:19:26

Thanks a lot so much. Thanks again. Bye now.