Ready to debunk some myths? Meet Keith Brown, a courageous man who is reshaping perspectives on bisexuality, one conversation at a time. Our intriguing conversation with Keith not only illuminates the nuances of bisexuality but also helps us differentiate it from pansexuality. We engulf ourselves in Keith's personal journey, delving into his early realization and comprehension of his bisexuality, challenging the common misconceptions that often cloud our understanding of this spectrum identity.
Moving on, we plunge into the heart of relationships, examining the dynamics when one partner identifies as bisexual. From overcoming biases in non-monogamous relationships to the power of honest communication, this segment is a treasure trove of insights. Wrapping up, we steer into Keith's podcast - 'Coffee with Keith', where he explores the intersection of sexual identity and faith, the trials of coming out, and the path to healing from shame and trauma. Keith's unique perspective, derived from his personal experiences and expertise, is eye-opening, breaking stereotypes, and fostering acceptance. Strap in for an enlightening conversation that might just alter your perceptions on bisexuality.
Ready to debunk some myths? Meet Keith Brown, a courageous man who is reshaping perspectives on bisexuality, one conversation at a time. Our intriguing conversation with Keith not only illuminates the nuances of bisexuality but also helps us differentiate it from pansexuality. We engulf ourselves in Keith's personal journey, delving into his early realization and comprehension of his bisexuality, challenging the common misconceptions that often cloud our understanding of this spectrum identity.
Moving on, we plunge into the heart of relationships, examining the dynamics when one partner identifies as bisexual. From overcoming biases in non-monogamous relationships to the power of honest communication, this segment is a treasure trove of insights. Wrapping up, we steer into Keith's podcast - 'Coffee with Keith', where he explores the intersection of sexual identity and faith, the trials of coming out, and the path to healing from shame and trauma. Keith's unique perspective, derived from his personal experiences and expertise, is eye-opening, breaking stereotypes, and fostering acceptance. Strap in for an enlightening conversation that might just alter your perceptions on bisexuality.
Mouth podcast, frank talk about sex and dating. Hello everyone, tamara here, welcome to the show. Today's guest is Keith Brown. We'll be talking about the ins and outs of being bisexual. If you like this episode, be sure to tell your friends about it and rate it as well. Thanks for joining me today, keith.
Speaker 1:
Well, thank you for having me, Tamara.
Speaker 2:
Yes, it was great to have you on, and this has been a curiosity for me and I'm sure others as well. Just exactly, we can either jump right into what is bisexuality and what's unique about it, or how you got into coaching people on this kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:
Well, I've actually realized that when I was very young that I was turns out bisexual, didn't understand it because I'm so old that we did not even have that term in use at that time. So, you know, you were either gay or one of those that's basically what we heard and one of those was never a good thing, as you can imagine. But this idea of duality, of more than one gender or identity was something that was very strange to us at that time. But I realized that I was, and so I struggled with that and I came to terms with it, even though I didn't even have vernacular around it, and later on, obviously, I did.
Speaker 1:
The idea of bisexuality is basically the ability to be attracted to more than one gender. Now it can be, you know, multiple genders. It can be the same gender, it can. It just means a plurality of genders and that is an umbrella term. And then people often say by plus, because, like everything else in the LGBTQ community, there are nuances and there are more numbers and letters being added every day, it seems. But so people often say by plus and that becomes the umbrella where a lot of things fall under, such as pansexual things like that.
Speaker 2:
OK. And is it like an equal attraction, like has it always been or is it depend? I know that people say it's like the person more than the gender, or is that true?
Speaker 1:
no-transcript. Actually, that's a distinction that I think, between bisexuality and pansexuality. Let me first say this Bisexuality is a spectrum identity. When it comes to attraction, it's a plurality of attractions. You can be attracted to more than one gender, for instance, but seldom in my 35 years of doing this work have I found many people that will tell you that they are 50-50. That spectrum is always there and it may be buried, weighted in one direction versus another, but there is at least some attraction to more than one, if that makes sense. Now, that's usually a very biological, a very physical, natural, human response, just like you would if you were heterosexual. It's just an automatic bodily response to that. That is something that people experience. Again, it's not usually on a 50-50.
Speaker 1:
What makes pansexual differently are different, and that's why it's becoming a lot more popular, especially with young people today, using the idea of pansexuality. Pansexuality is like bisexuality in that they can be an attraction to more than one identity or one gender. However, the difference is that pansexual at least in my understanding and my interpretation in my work pansexual is more for those people who really don't really understand what pansexual is. They don't care what that gender is. They're more attracted to the person, their personality, their energy, the wholeness of that person. It is that connection, is that energy connection that they have that attraction to their personality, the gender their gender really comes secondary to the energetic or the personality attraction. They don't really worry about what the gender is of the person they're attracted to, whereas in my mind, a person who is not pansexual but bisexual in its most natural and simple form is just a person that is, just when they look out in society, they're attracted to more than one gender, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, and you said there were. We talked a little bit right before misconceptions, misnomers, like different things. Yeah, and people generally think of bisexual people or what they assume about them.
Speaker 1:
Well, there are many things that people assume about bisexual people, and many of them are wrong. Let me first of all say something that some people find a little bit fascinating, if not something that they really didn't even know. You can be bisexual and heteroromantic and people go like, what are you talking about? There are people who are, and again this goes back to the difference between bisexual and pansexual. A lot of bisexual can be attracted to more than one gender, but when it comes to a relationship, they may be only primarily attracted to one gender. Okay, so just because you're bisexual doesn't mean you want a relationship with any gender. Now, there are plenty of bisexuals that are that way. I am one. I am heteroromantic. I've always been attracted in relation to female energy, female identity. So that's an example of that where pansexual doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1:
Now, some of the misconceptions that I hear a lot of is that bisexuality is like the transitional drug to homosexuality.
Speaker 1:
People say, well, bisexual, that's just a person trying to get comfortable with their homosexuality, and are using that because they don't want to say they're gay or whatever.
Speaker 1:
And although there are some people, yes, that will begin as bisexual, getting comfortable with that, and then they will eventually come out as gay. That's, I think, more of a minority than a majority. In my experience and I work a lot with people who, because of my age I'm 60 years old, so I work with a lot of people that are older naturally attract those people to my work. So I work with a lot of people that have been bisexual for 40, 50, 60, 70 years and they have never changed. So this idea that it's a gateway to homosexuality is not true. There are circumstances where it is, but it is not the norm. So I want to make that very clear and we have to keep saying that, because there's a lot of people this is not coming from the heterosexual world, this is coming from the gay world who often say this and don't accept bisexuality because of this misunderstanding. So that's a very important one that I want to make clear.
Speaker 2:
And then for dating as a woman, dating a guy who's bisexual, should you feel any differently? Like or like they'll? I mean, like you said, I guess it's more of the romantic if they're more of the type that would actually just only date or have relationships with women. Is it more like on the sexual side there's men sometimes, or is it like what's the general?
Speaker 1:
well, I mean, certainly that's going to depend on the couple, because in my work I have worked with. So let me just quickly say here's another misnomer Okay, okay, bisexuals are not any more promiscuous in a relationship than any other identity gender. Okay. So if you're heterosexual, you can either be faithfully monogamous or you can cheat. If you are gay, you can be faithfully monogamous or you can cheat. The same thing for bisexuals. Bisexuals can be monogamous.
Speaker 1:
Just because you retracted more than one identity doesn't mean that you are going to cheat. That is. That is an ethical thing. That is your character. You know. That is not your identity. So people sometimes confuse that.
Speaker 1:
So I just want to say there are many bisexuals that have been faithfully in a relationship for decades and never cheated. Doesn't mean that they don't have other attractions, just like heterosexuals are going to be sometimes attracted to other people. Doesn't mean they act on that right. It just means it's a natural attraction. It doesn't mean they do anything with it. So the same can be true for bisexuals. So that's one of the things that in your example a woman dating a bisexual man that she would need to understand. Now will there be insecurities? Absolutely. And one of the things that I will tell a bisexual person who is in a relationship is don't be surprised when you're a partner, especially if it is a partner of a different sexual identity. That are gender identity, I should say when they have feelings of insecurity, because there are times when they may like I don't have those parts and how can I make you completely happy if I don't have those parts? This goes through their minds. I mean, it just does and that's a very normal thing. So we shouldn't make that person feel bad for that and we should understand that that's a natural thing and that person shouldn't feel guilty for feeling that way. What, then, must come into play is good communication, and good communication is essential for the parameters of the relationship.
Speaker 1:
So, and my 35 years of working with bisexual and how did I get started with this? You asked this earlier Because of my identity. I think I wasn't even out for a lot of my life because of the work I was doing, because I was in evangelical churches, all this kind of stuff. So I was just attracting people to me to talk with me because they knew they could trust me and there was something about the connection that they failed right. So I've been doing this work for a long time, even before I was out of the closet myself, and I was doing it behind closed doors, secretive, not like undercover secretive, but just being in the ethics of the relationship mentoring, counseling, whatever capacity relationship.
Speaker 1:
So I started doing it a long time ago and what I noticed was these bisexual couples they there were many who decided that in their contract of relationship it was gonna be a monogamous relationship. They both bought into it, they both agreed upon it. Then they would talk about it and if things came up they would discuss it, but they were going to be monogamous. I've also had some that have decided that they would be more open in their relationship and I've seen it on both ends of that. Okay, and then everything in between. So you can. So I say all that to say it depends on the couple, so there's no general rule of thumb on that yeah, would you say, more are in the lifestyle in that world or like, just like heteros.
Speaker 2:
it's probably, you know, the same kind of ratio, mix or whatever.
Speaker 1:
I would say that there, excuse me, there are certainly those that are in. Are you talking about like a swinging license?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and or just yeah, like yeah, having other couples or inviting.
Speaker 1:
Right. Ethical non-monogamy is what you're basically Okay. I would say that there are certainly people who are in that because of their bisexuality. Now, because I have known people in that circle because of my work, I also know that there has been a sort of a taboo against male bisexuality. Even in that world there's still a lot of taboo about male bisexuality, where it is less, though, about female bisexuality. But so there are some people who do that so that they can experience it.
Speaker 1:
But again, in that world, I think it's more of the females that are being able to express themselves that way, and it's a physical thing in most cases, obviously. So when it comes to other situations, I think that there are couples that will do all kinds of things. They will use fantasy they will talk about, they might use toys, they might do things together as a couple, experiment it trying to bring some of this other aspect into the relationship, and it can be just as simple as being able to be honest with your partner and saying you know, I find you know, let's say, you're sitting around home and you're seeing a movie on television, you know he's handsome, you know you might be saying something like that. It's as innocent as that right, so it can be very, very calm, very innocent, and yet in that it gives the person a chance to at least express their personhood in some way, so they get a release of that. So you know, again, it's up to the couples and it's very individualistic.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I do have another episode on male performance and orgasms where I had a heterosexual friend male friend who said that like pegging and all this stuff around that is like very pleasurable, and he wanted me to do an episode specifically for heterosexual guys to just understand what they're missing out on if they haven't tried. So it is a fairly popular episode but I'm assuming, as a bisexual person, you would agree or just like have you? Well, I guess, yeah, there goes stereotyping.
Speaker 1:
Well, yes, because there's. I mean there are. I had on my podcast just recently a psychologist who specializes a sexologist, specializes in sexology, and you know he coined the term side because he himself is a gay man, but he was neither a, you know if it, you know, I don't know how much people know but he was neither a top or a bottom. That means he was not the pitcher or the catcher, right, he was what he coined the phrase side because you know there's a lot of gay men who are not in to any of that themselves. So we got to be careful to saying that that's an automatic. It's not. And also there are many, many and this is something I want people to hear because people go like, no, this is not true, but it is.
Speaker 1:
There are a lot of bisexual people that have never, ever, experienced any type of sexual activity with a gender they're attracted to. The experience doesn't make them bisexual, it's the attraction that does Okay. So we gotta be careful and no two people are ever alike. And so that if someone wants or enjoys one thing, does it mean that everybody of that kind does right, just like a female, a heterosexual woman, may enjoy one thing over another, one position over another. It's so individualistic that we have to be careful just putting people into a bowl basically.
Speaker 2:
It's kind of like fantasies, where you might fantasize about a certain race, gender, whatever, and then it doesn't mean you're actually gonna act on it. It's like sometimes just the fantasy of it's enough.
Speaker 1:
That's absolutely true. That's true, and there are a lot of people who do that and there are a lot of couples that that's one of the ways that they work through this and they build this relationship and they have such a strong relationship because they build some of these things into the relationship that are innocent, they are great upon by them, they are comfortable with. It's all about being comfortable with your partner and I give you this. Being in a bisexual relationship is a nuanced experience that does take communication and it has to take honest communication and it has to be a person. If you're the straight person, for instance, you have to be a person who will not be overly judgmental toward the bisexual person if you wanna be in a relationship with them, if they begin to be honest with you because you want that honesty right. So that's the way you build trust. So I mean it's.
Speaker 2:
Yeah. Well, and I have a new friend who it seemed like he may be and he finally did say it. But yeah, I took him a while to admit to it and, like you were saying earlier, there's more bias or stigma towards male bisexuals than any other instance, but he definitely seems like he likes both genders, like physically, sexually.
Speaker 1:
Well, and I mean, if you think about straight men, one of the things that straight men one of the biggest fantasies is two women, right, yeah, so you know. And so there's just even among straight men who there's this acceptance of that, more so than other, and that is a bias that we've had for some times. It is getting better, and you mentioned the non-monogamous, ethical non-monogamous lifestyle. I have talked to people in that, I've interviewed people in that, and they tell me as well that it is getting better within that as well. So there is a little bit more movement toward a more understanding and acceptance of male bisexuality, which I'm thankful for, actually.
Speaker 2:
And I know you said you usually work with older people, but I know younger people. They've been doing this fluidity thing and all the different gender you know, so I'm sure they're yeah well, I mean I've worked with every age.
Speaker 1:
I mean I've even worked, you know, with parental consent. I've even worked with I don't do that anymore, but this was you know. I only work with older people, not I work with adults. Now, let me just put it that way. I still work with millennials and things like that, but I just, typically, because of my age, there's a comfortableness that a lot of older people connect with me, and one of the things that I most often see and most often attract from people that just see my work is because a lot of bisexuals are still in the closet, especially older bisexuals, whether they are baby boomers or older gen-gen-gen-exes. You know they're still in the closet, a lot of them, and we would be surprised how many people are on the spectrum of bisexuality and you will never know it because they will never admit it.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, I can see that, and you did say you talked about working with people, so I wanna just share how people can get ahold of you if they're interested in working with you or hearing more and you can share all the stuff, podcasts and everything.
Speaker 1:
Okay, well, all right. Well, let me begin with the podcasts, because that's the easiest. It's called Coffee with Keith and we are on our third year and I have a religious background as well. So on Wednesdays I have table talks where it's all about issues, interviews, all this type of thing related to the LGBT community. On Fridays is Bible talks, where I translate and interpret some scripture and give applications, so that's a little bit. On Fridays it's a very light Bible presentation. So that's Coffee with Keith. That's every single week. My website is the T-H-E J Keith Brown the initial J and that gets you to my hub.
Speaker 1:
I do coaching, I have digital courses, I even do in-person events. I've been doing this work for 35 years. I've got a coming out course, I've got a shame and trauma course, how to handle conflict within relationship course, and then, of course, the coaching. So my four specialties if you'll allow me to just share those so that people can understand, number one is coming out, and I created a framework called the Selective Outage Method, which is mine, and I teach that through my coaching or my courses, and that's what I use and that's what I've been sharing with clients for all these years. So coming out is one of the areas shame and trauma. Basal sexual identity is one. The third is, obviously, I work with bisexual couples, something I know really well, since I've been living this life for 45 years. And then, lastly, I work with people who are trying to bridge the gap between their sexual identity and a more Orthodox faith Christian faith. So those are the four areas I specialize in.
Speaker 2:
And which one would you say you get more people needing? Or is it kind of like just a person in split or Well, I mean it depends on where they are.
Speaker 1:
I mean there are two, two that are probably the most and the coming out, because that's kind of a unique perspective I have and it's a little different and it really is geared toward the person who wants to be very slow, careful, strategic and selective in there coming out. I do a lot of that work, so that's, and especially with older people, and the course probably helps. So you know, that's big. And probably the other area I think the most would be with the bisexual couples, those that have been honest to come out at least with their partner and then are trying to Figure all that stuff out. And because, like I said, I I've been living this for 45 years. And my what?
Speaker 1:
When I was I got married 20 years old, my first wife we made. We married 25 years. We had a child, great. You know, most of that was a happy marriage. Sexual identity had nothing to do with the divorce. But she knew when we married. She married me when she was 18, I was 20. She knew at that point who I was and we lived all those 25 years with that knowledge. So I know what it's like to be in this type of relationship and live it successfully. So I do like doing that work with couples because I think I give a a very practical experiential background.
Speaker 2:
And I know, I know it might sound biased again, but like I, like you said, the stereotype or the, I can't help it. I mean, you said people will stay monogamous or choose to be faithful, and all that. But is there, I don't know, I don't even know how to ask, like is there greater temptations because there are that many more people in the world that you could be attracted to? Or, like you said, it's just more ethics? And like, either do or you don't, and it's not.
Speaker 1:
I mean, have you not known single guys that are just absolutely Bed jumpers, you know? Yeah, exactly right, it's all about the person. And and here's another Something I really want people to this is another misnomer. If you're bisexual, that means you know you're attracted to every Guy out there. If you're a guy no, you're not. It's just like any other person. You're attracted to certain people, certain types of people you know. And Just because you're bisexual doesn't mean that you're attracted to every man and or every woman. You're not. So this the the pond may seem bigger when if to people who aren't bisexual, but it's not, it isn't. So no bigger, no bigger temptation, no.
Speaker 2:
All right. Well, is there anything else? Well, I know actually, like the shame in the trauma stuff. I mean, obviously a lot of you know people from where everyone's childhood, unless they had the perfect parents, which don't exist have some kind of trauma or shame that happened. Is there just kind of like a tidbit about Like what you work people with people for on that Is it just?
Speaker 1:
is it all around the sexuality or I have because of my background, because I did a lot of pastoral counseling in the past. I've done all types of trauma. You know divorce, death, the whole deal. But no, in my work now I specialize in sexual identity trauma and it is it is from a vast group of people where this trauma comes from, especially for those who grew up in the Christian church as Coming up Obviously, we can imagine the trauma that's been inflicted there, the spiritual trauma. So I do a lot of that work and I I Another thing that I put together and I this is what I use is called wipeout trauma.
Speaker 1:
That's my framework, that's my techniques, that's what I used for my 60 years of life. But if I would tell anybody, it's that you need to have a plan to heal and you need to take each incidents separately. Don't try, you can't. You can't heal every wound at the same time. You've got to approach one at a time and that's what I teach in my wipeout trauma work. So if you want to see about that, you want to check it out, there's coaching as well as a course for that. So whichever way you want to go, it's there for you.
Speaker 1:
So, okay, and if I may tamer, let me just say it's not all about the products and selling here. Okay, so there's a lot of. I have a lot of free resources too, so I mean there's questions asked for you. Come out, that are free. There are questions for bisexual couples to talk about that's free. There are something that I coined when I wrote a book about 12 years ago called toward Asians. Those are free. So just go to my website, look under free resources and you can get anything there.
Speaker 2:
I just have one last question and then I'll let you like do a final comment thing. But if, if someone suspects that their partner may be like, is there a better way to ask or not, or like to Bring it up, like, how would you say to approach something like that?
Speaker 1:
I think the first thing would be to make sure how you feel about that possibility and secondly, how judgmental are you about that? So if you think you know what I love this person, if they are, I'm still going to love this person. And I also believe that because a person is this doesn't make them a bad person. And the first thing I would do is begin to lay the groundwork where this idea suddenly comes up of showing support or allied ship toward LGBT people. Because until a person knows that you can be trusted with this identity and that you're not going to hate them for it or things, it's very tough for them to be open with you. So I think you've got to lay the groundwork first, and once they know that you're okay and that you would be okay and that you don't judge people because of sexual identity, then at some point you may casually say you know, I'm just.
Speaker 1:
You know, I'm just wondering have you ever thought about that? Is that even something you've ever considered? You know and be honest, you know it's something it's never. And if you never have, you might say you know, this is not something I've ever considered, but you know, I think it's not a bad deal if somebody has. I just, have you ever thought about this? You got to be very non-threatening. But again, first of all, lay the framework, lay the foundation. If they say yes, they're not going to get their head chopped off, because if you haven't, then you're not going to get on. Honest answer.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Okay, and then just, you know, just final comments or just like tidbits you want for sure to leave people with. I know you talked about the misnomer, or so whichever or whichever you want.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, the first thing, what I would like to say to anybody is if you're listening to my voice right now and you are in the closet, whether you are gay, lesbian, bisexual, pansexual, whatever you believe you are or if you just believe that you aren't straight and you don't know what you really are, that's okay. I want you to hear my voice when I tell you and this is the old man talking never let anybody else force you to do anything. Never let anybody else force you to come out if you don't feel ready to do so. Don't ever let anybody else force you how to come out, and don't let anybody ever tell you that you have to come out in a certain way or it has to look a certain way. This is all about you.
Speaker 1:
It's all about what's best for you, for you to be healthy and happy, and to me, the only person that knows that is you.
Speaker 2:
Awesome, all right, well, thank you very much for being on. I think people, especially people that are, like you said, in the closet, would love to hear those words. And thank you for being on Well it's my pleasure.
Speaker 1:
Thank you for having me, Tamara. I appreciate the time and you having me on your podcast.
Speaker 2:
Of course, yeah, and be sure to check out Keith Brown and the J Keith Brown, which is your website, and all the info there, and if you like this episode, be sure to tell your friends about it and read it as well and have a great day everyone. Thank you, keith, bye.
Speaker 1:
Thank you, frank's all, frank's all. Sex and dating educate.