Breaking the Stigma: Conversations About Sex for Healthier Relationships #76

Can discussing sex openly break down societal stigmas and lead to healthier relationships? Join us for a thought-provoking episode where we challenge the taboos surrounding conversations about sex. Sarah, with her medical expertise, sheds light on how patients often shy away from discussing sexual health issues unless prompted by a physician. JJ offers a personal narrative about navigating sexual stigma from a young age, highlighting the significance of early sex education. This also establishes boundaries to prevent abusive relationships. This chapter underscores that open dialogue about sexuality is crucial for personal growth and building healthy adult relationships.

Ever wondered if it's too late to discover your sensuality? Sharla's inspiring journey of embracing her sexuality later in life proves otherwise. We emphasize the need for open communication about sexual health, especially when dealing with medical challenges like cancer or erectile dysfunction. Distinguishing between desire and arousal, we explore how women's interest in sex evolves over time while still achieving fulfilling experiences. The revolutionary impact of Viagra for men and common misunderstandings about its use are also discussed, alongside the unique challenges women face due to the complexity of their sexual health. This chapter stresses the importance of transparent conversations with partners to overcome shame and enhance intimacy.

Understanding female arousal involves more than just the physical act. Drawing from Dr. Cindy Messon's research and insights, we delve into the complexities of women's arousal, emphasizing context, mental state, and emotional well-being. We discuss how misinterpretations can lead to relationship issues and highlight the physiological and hormonal factors influencing women's sexual responsiveness, particularly how life events like childbirth can affect arousal. By sharing these insights, we aim to foster open communication and self-awareness, essential elements for maintaining healthy sexual relationships. 

Transcript

Breaking the Stigma on Sex

Intro 0:00

Welcome to the Straight from the Source's Mouth podcast. Frank talk about sex and dating.

Tamara 0:06

Hello everyone, tamara here, welcome to the show. Today's guests are Sarah and JJ, and we'll be talking all about sex. Be sure to tell your friends about it and rate it as well. Thanks for joining me, sarah and JJ.

JJ 0:19

Happy to be here, thank you.

Sarah 0:20

Thank you for inviting us. We love to talk about sex, yes.

Tamara 0:24

Yeah, and just a background real quick. We met at Podcast Movement, a podcast conference, and we both happen to have shows on similar themes, and we discovered that one of the biggest things we should talk about is the stigma around it. Like we could only find each other, like there weren't that many others doing the same, and then we've had, you know, experiences where people are seem weirded out by talking about sex. So I was going to ask you guys what are your thoughts on why there is a stigma, or what we can do about a stigma, or like what are you? What are you thinking?

Sarah 0:56

Well, you know, I think that's such a good question for us because what they were out of a thousand people, only five of us were talking about sex at the conference, and so I think that does really show that this is an area that people just really shy away from, and I was trained at a medical school, so that that has been able. That has made me more. It has been easier for people to talk to me about sex, because if they think the doctor sent you people to talk to me about sex, because if they think your doctor sent you or you're talking about a medical problem, it's much easier than talking about a personal issue around your sexual functioning. So I'm really glad to be able to have that kind of ease for people to bring in. How do they then talk about themselves?

JJ 1:45

Yeah, I think when.

JJ 1:46

I think about stigma.

JJ 1:47

I think it's twofold right, you have the experience that people project the stigma onto other people and then you alienate groups and then you make it difficult to talk about these things, but then also there's that internalized stigma where it might prevent you from accepting hey, this is who I am and all I need to do is just talk to a couple professionals to better understand this is how I'm feeling, this certain way.

JJ 2:09

But if there's stigma involved, that's where, I think, where shame starts to really present itself and that could prevent personal growth, personal acceptance, and could make for a difficult childhood. One of the reasons that I really latched onto this podcast when I met Sarah and I thought, wow, this is going to be a lot of fun is because of just the difficult sort of path to navigate this as a young boy in the world. When you start asking questions about sexuality, stigma is there and you're like, oh, I'm doing something wrong. And then there's other people you know like, oh, I don't talk to them because they're a certain way and it's just very difficult. I think that's really the block that prevents it from becoming positive and a healthy thing to explore and, as we learned in our podcast, a necessary conversation.

Sarah 2:59

You know there is research that if your physician doesn't ask you about if you have, if you're okay with your sexual functioning, that the patient won't say that, that we have so much internalized shame and discomfort in the area. It's just really shocking and and in some ways not because we all grew up with all these rules about how we're supposed to be sexually, men and women yeah, that's definitely and that was one of the first.

Tamara 3:25

that's part of the reasons I started this. Like my I call her majority of the time co-host and I you know she didn't have sex until she was married. I was like my childhood or growing up was, it wasn't as taboo, so I've always felt fine and comfortable talking about it and you know, just so, that obviously those that distinction between the two and then there's people that are like it's evil, don't do it. You know, like it's all kinds of messaging you get from your parents or caretakers or people. Yeah, definitely affects things.

JJ 3:55

Yeah, and if you're not having a healthy conversation then you risk going to other places to get your information the internet, you know, for young people today, or when I was young, you know, it was just like cinema and popular culture, and I just don't know if that's the best place really to get this kind of education, because I remember there was little to no sex ed for boys and growing up in school and but there was a lot of stigma. You know, don't do those things, they're bad and I think it's detrimental to just human development. You know, I think another thing that we carried away from our first season is that basic, you know, expression of sexuality and basic understanding is a human right. Isn't that, sarah, what we learned?

Sarah 4:38

I thought that was one of the better lines, that we got from our first series Right because we interviewed someone who does sex education in the schools and for parents and for kids, and she starts out with people you know in elementary school, very young, talking about just the right to say no to someone playing on your part of the sandbox. You know that you have to do it in a developmental way, but we all need to know that we have the human right to know how our bodies work, to know that we can say no or yes to something, and that's just really important in order to have an adult relationship later on.

Tamara 5:19

Yeah, I just had someone on who talks about this. She's an educator and she says start young, have them like, start learning their boundaries. And also, the earlier you start doing that, the more easy it is to prevent excuse me, prevent like abusive relationships too. Because if you have no boundaries and you let stuff happen, you're more inclined to let the negative stuff happen to you as well.

Sarah 5:42

Well, and not even think you have the right to say no. Let the negative stuff happen to you as well. So Well, and not even think you have the right to say no. So if you again, I think what you were saying earlier about you have to be able to talk about sex. The main thing I do as a sex therapist is help people be able to have a conversation about actually what's happening and what do they like and what do they not like. And if you can't have that, you just let things happen because you don't really know what is happening. You know, I've had clients come in who didn't understand they could touch their own bodies to get pleasure, that they had the right to do that, that they could communicate these kinds of needs or misunderstanding what an erection is or how do you have an orgasm? Where, where is my clitoris? People who've never been able to explore that talk about that, have family, professionals, friends who they can actually talk to.

Tamara 6:42

Yeah, and like JJ was saying, not the internet, where sometimes obviously the internet can be right too, but porn and different stuff isn't quite as helpful. Yeah.

Sarah 6:52

Right, and that's what both of our podcasts are trying to do. Right, tamara is being able to educate people from people who are actually getting research and data, and trying to really help people understand their sexuality and their bodies.

JJ 7:08

Yeah, yeah definitely. Yeah, normalize the conversation too. You know it's. I think the more you have the conversation, the easier it is to talk about these, and then you're more likely to ask questions. You know, this is my experience, what's your experience? And all that is part of normalizing human behavior. I think it's critical, it's important.

Tamara 7:25

And I usually mention the site OMG yes, omg yes. It's a website where they've done a lot of research and shared a lot of knowledge and they have videos and tutorials and all kinds of stuff on female pleasure and just trying to get that stigma. And on Instagram they'll always have a quote of someone discovered something or oh, I like this. And then they realize like 20,000 other people liked it too, but they always thought they were the only person, or they thought that it was weird or you know. So it's just good to know you're not alone. There's whatever you like. Someone else probably likes it too. Even if you think it's weird, there's definitely other people out there doing it.

Sarah 7:59

And you know, I've had a couple who, when I showed them the OMG at yes, they thought it was porn and bad and they stopped coming to me because they thought that I was promoting porn. So you know, everybody also has to deal with their own internalized shame, their own sense of right and wrong. And how do we, as sex educators, help people be able to make progress in a way that's comfortable for them? So, you know, for some people they need to just know they can talk about whatever their experience is without being given more. You know, suggestions, because a suggestion may be scary to them.

Tamara 8:42

Yeah, good point. Yeah, I didn't think about that. Yeah, and I know we talked about some of the medical stuff that you've dealt with or helped patients deal with, and they're on both sides, like as women age and men age the stuff that goes on, or just some of the stuff you want to.

Sarah 9:00

Yeah, so JJ and I have really been interviewing people who can talk about what it's like to be having sex when you're older, what it's like to be able to function with your body at different stages and different kind of problems that you're having. So, JJ, what are some of the things that you remember that some of our guests have said about their physical limitations and how they have worked with them?

JJ 9:29

I think one of the more insightful interviews that we did was with Sharla. Sharla was, you know she's a very interesting story. I don't want to give it away, but you know you should check out the podcast and check out episode one. But late in life she really started to discover this aspect of her life and really built a whole new chapter of her life around the fact that she was a little older and exploring her sexuality for the first time. And I think, well, not necessarily a lesson on the limitations of age. It was really like for what I got from it is like it doesn't matter how old you are or where you are, what stage of life. You should embrace it and explore it in a beautiful way. And I thought, wow, here's Sharla giving us many young people insight into how to be a little bit more sensual with yourself and accepting and I think maybe it's kind of in the realm, but not necessarily a limitation of sorts, but more accepting in a celebration despite the age of where she's at. I thought that was beautiful sentiment.

Sarah 10:32

You know, that was one of the things I take from it yeah, and you know, so many medical problems come up as we're, not only as we age, but if we have any kind of you know surgeries or cancer where we have to deal with, this part of my body may not be working anymore. If I had breast cancer or uterine cancer or or erection difficulties because I prostate cancer, how do we still feel like a sexual person and not see herself and from a place of shame or in you know I'm not being enough.

Tamara 11:04

Yeah, and if you, like you were saying earlier, if we can't talk about it, you're not going to share with your partner, that you're having issues potentially, and then they'll take it personally that they're doing something wrong and then just you know, further, divide the couple potentially, and you know, just like I said, if there's no shame, they can share like oh, i've've it's been harder for me lately, like it's nothing about you, like I wish you know, or just just having the dialogue yeah, I think the dialogue alone is the barrier and that alone, just by lifting that burden of, like you know oh wow, we can talk about this sometimes could be, you know, the what you need to get past that first stage of feeling the visceral impact of stigma, because I mean, I kind of feel like that.

JJ 11:48

for many years I've shared with Sarah I felt like there was a weight because I couldn't talk about these things with friends and associates. Once I started to talk about it, I felt like that lifted off my shoulders and then I just felt more liberated, literally. You know, and you know perhaps that's the case too. You know, if there's a holdup or a hangup, it's just communicating with your partner. You know.

Tamara 12:08

Yeah.

JJ 12:08

I think it's important.

Tamara 12:10

And Sarah, did you want to talk about some of the actual physical parts, like what can happen and how to remedy it, or how you help patients or clients?

Sarah 12:20

So sure you know. I think that you know we have an issue about desire and arousal, and I think that's a really important difference that people get confused about, because many people come in because they want to want sex the way they used to. And if you're in a long-term relationship, we know from the research that women tend to have less interest in sex over time, but that doesn't mean they don't get aroused and have orgasms, and so trying to really have people figure out what the problem is is a really important part to this. You know, we know for men, we you know what a revolution when we got Vigra. It changed everything for men in erections, and I have young men who just have it in their bedroom just in case they need it, so it can be just a safety valve for them, or it allows people to really be able to function and be able to have intercourse.

Sarah 13:25

And you know, I think that, looking at what are those problems in terms of can I get aroused, can I have an orgasm, how does it take me a long time Is it a problem we talk about? Is it a problem of my internal body not working, or is it really a problem outside, because I have problems in my relationship, or stress or trauma, different kinds of things that cause the problem. So we're always trying to sort through what specifically is the problem. Is it a new problem or an old problem? And then how many people are around in this problem to try to solve it.

Tamara 14:08

Yeah, when you talked earlier, it reminded me of performance anxiety too. Just having that pill as a you know it kind of can alleviate the anxiety of it, like okay, I have that if I need it, but and then they can like release that, that part of the anxiety on it. So that's right.

Sarah 14:25

It was always a shock, though, when people, when men, started using it I'm sure you've heard these stories they thought that they could just take the pill and then they'd get an erection. Well, if you don't get stimulation, you're not going to get the erection, and so we had many, many disappointed couples at first, until they learned how it actually worked.

Tamara 14:43

Yeah, I don't think I knew that either. I think I kind of assumed like if you take it, I mean it's probably not instantaneous because it has, to like go through your system. But I've heard of doing it like 30 minutes out or something. I don't know. Is there a time that is best to start it?

Sarah 14:57

Well, there are different pills that take different amount of times. So the newer ones, it takes less time, but it still takes stimulation. So you still got to get that stimulation. But for women we don't have any of those easy answers. You know, women's sexuality is so much more complicated, just where it starts in the brain, how our hormones work, how testosterone works for men and does not do the same thing for women. Because you know, as we know, men have 95% more testosterone than women, naturally, normally, and so they have such an easier push to be able to get interested and aroused.

Sarah 15:33

But just trying to look again at what is the problem and how do we try to resolve it, I kind of tell people, you know, think about going to the vet with your animal, and the animal can't tell us what's wrong. So you try a little bit of this, a little bit of that until we try to really resolve the problem. And that seems to be what we do as a sex therapist, A little bit different than what we do as an educator, JJ. So how do you think that you in your do as an educator, JJ? So how do you think that you and your role as an educator and producer of these podcasts or help people and help them define or decide what their problem is or what to do.

JJ 16:14

Yeah, I think within the realm of our podcasts it's just a resource.

JJ 16:19

You know, that's the beauty of podcasting it empowers so many independent producers and grassroots producers and people who have a real interest in alleviating stigma.

JJ 16:30

To keep coming back to that.

JJ 16:31

I think that's what podcasts can do as an education tool.

JJ 16:35

I firmly believe that these conversations that we are having the five of us at that conference out of 1,200 that we're willing to have, know, the five of us at that conference out of 1,200 that are willing to have this conversation, with enough discussion between ourselves and other people producing these podcasts, you know, we create a type of knowledge base and that's incredible, right, that people out in society, not in a university, are having educated and real kind of curious conversations about these topics and we build a type of what's called public pedagogy.

JJ 17:06

Right, we are the community people having these conversations about these ideas and people like Tamara lead podcasts, interview us. We interview people and just continue to foster this education. I think of some of the really big podcasts, like Estelle perel or some of the flagship leaders of this movement and, uh, dr justin laymiller, you know well researched, coming out of the kinsey institute research podcast about all of this stuff, you can and I think this is the beauty of podcasting latch on to a number of of independent producers and start to glean good resources, particularly when people mean well and and I think the you know all of us mean well and that's important, you know.

Tamara 17:48

Yeah, and since you mentioned your podcast, do you want to just go ahead and talk about what it's called and where they can find it and what you guys do?

JJ 17:57

Yeah, sarah, you want to talk about it, sure.

Sarah 17:59

Our podcast is Beyond Boundaries, a sex and culture podcast, and we have our first season as Chronicles of a Sex Therapist, where we've interviewed different people who I have known in my career, who offer wonderful help to people in terms of body image or sexual functioning, or education and politics really sexual functioning or education and politics, really. And if you go to beyond boundaries coachingnet, you will find our podcast or you can find us on, you know, apple, apple and Spotify and all those other things as well. Yeah, and our next season that we're working on now is detox, masculinity, and we will be publishing that probably in the next month and that's going to be really, really fun because we're talking about all the different issues about how the good and the bad about masculinity and how we, as men and women, kind of struggle with both ends.

Tamara 19:17

Yeah, I was going to ask you about the second season, so it worked out.

JJ 19:20

You started it and there are conversations with a professor who that's his particular field of study, so there's a lot of insight into what he's seen in the research, a lot of the workshops that he hosts on university campuses with young people about their perceptions of masculinity. I enjoy it and, unlike the first series, where we interviewed you know a variety of people, this is a very focused conversation with you know someone who's deep into the research and I think it's interesting that we presented in that kind of platform because we're still exploring. We, you know, we don't really have limits on how we have these conversations and who we're speaking to. We're very excited to just have the conversation and I think that's yeah, that's fun, that makes it light.

Tamara 20:04

Yeah, and that's one thing about like podcasting in general. Like everyone has a different take. You know a slightly different way of looking at it. Like you're super researched, I'm more into like people's opinions as coaches and you know just real people like talking about stuff. So obviously then you, like you were saying earlier, people can get a variety of them and get like all the pieces and what works best for them.

Sarah 20:26

Yeah, jj and I were talking about how this is really our passion project, that we both have our own busy careers and we have come together and just found that we had this interest and that it was has been so much fun to do, and that's where it comes from for us. We're really lucky.

JJ 20:45

Yeah, it's a lot of fun, you know. I mean, who doesn't want to produce a sex podcast? I mean, I think it's so. I think it's totally fine to be a fly on the wall in these conversations.

Understanding Female Arousal and Sexuality

Tamara 20:55

And I know at the conference you mentioned going to the the. I can't, I don't think it was the kinsey institute itself, but it was someone that works for that kind of stuff. Did you want to share? I know it's one of your episodes, but maybe share a little bit about, like what you learned or why you liked that interview so much.

JJ 21:10

It was yeah, well, I think for us it was.

JJ 21:13

Dr cindy messon at a ut was one of the researchers. She's one of the premier female researchers on women's arousal in Texas out of UT, which I think is like similar to the work of the Kinsey Institute and Dr Justin Lee Miller deep dives into the backend story. But that was a fascinating conversation because it was primarily about women's arousal and it just for me as a man, you know, put me in the front seat to see how it's not that it's complex, it's just that it's not like men's arousal, that is, like man sees man is aroused, like women's is a little bit more, given the context and there's a certain. There's a lot of other things that need to happen there and I think that's important for anybody who is in a relationship with someone, with a woman, or someone who identifies a woman, to better understand the relationship, the partnership and how arousal takes place. Otherwise, you're just walking in the dark with no flashlight and that's how we get to the stage we are in sexuality in the 21st century, and I think yeah.

Sarah 22:19

And you know what's so important about that is it's based in our anatomy. It goes back to our bodies are similar in many ways, but there are some very important differences where sex starts in the brain, what our hormones are, those things. If we don't understand those things, we tend to judge others or ourselves in a negative way, and that judgment just creates more shame and more distance.

Tamara 22:46

Yeah, especially, like you said, the differences between men and women. If men don't understand that women take a long time and they're like, oh, you're like me, I can touch you and you'll be turned on. It's like no, if you're mad during the day and you're not, you know you're ignoring her and then you suddenly want to have sex. Like there's a lot more goes into it, like said between the it's in the brain, primarily so she has to have a good day, she has to feel, you know, good about herself. There's like many things that go on for a woman to be around, so it's.

Tamara 23:14

I have a lot, of, a lot of episodes about just the differences between men and women and if you don't understand that, about each other get very frustrated and all the divorces and all the issues, and yet again it circles back to talking about it and having conversations. So you understand like oh, instead of just saying I'm mad or ignoring the guy, say like oh, you were mean to me all day and then you wanted me to have sex. Or you know, I'm sure that's a common complaint.

JJ 23:44

But like more to it, just trying to help each other understand what's going on. Yeah, there is more to it, you know. But I think anybody who's interested in anything should research right, like what does the research show about, you know, women's arousal or couples, or you know you should be interested in these things.

Tamara 23:57

And.

JJ 23:57

I think that's another added benefit of these podcasts. You know, maybe you don't have the funds to take a class or you don't want to go do these things, but podcasts are a great way to find out who's talking about it, who's interviewing these people, and maybe I can learn a little bit about it. If they're doing that that's a great start, I think.

Sarah 24:14

And, you know, I think the most important message that I want to have people, they are normal, that sexuality is this huge range of how people, how their bodies are and how they react. I have women who can come in a second and I have men who take 20 minutes. So, you know, it can be very different and all of our bodies are very individual and there is no right or wrong way to be, for our bodies to be. Yeah.

Tamara 24:47

I think that's a great point. Yeah, cause then it goes back to you know, I was saying earlier about people feeling like they're the only one that experienced this or that. Yeah, I mean I just I feel like maybe like more of the medical stuff for, like, arousing women. What do we? What do we need? Obviously the mental stuff too, but as far as physically, what do women for the guys or other women, what do women need to generally? I know you just said as an individual, but so, like some of the again, if we think about that, women's sexuality starts is a midbrain function.

Sarah 25:20

For men it's stimulus. So their bodies are going to respond just more directly to stimulation physical or visual. But for us it takes a combination of how are we feeling, are we thinking distracted, and what are our sensations? And so, unfortunately, when we start a relationship, our hormones are really working. For us, there is a hormone that is called ethylthiazine.

Sarah 25:54

It's hard to say, but we tend to think that that is a hormone that makes women fall in love and want to have sex that goes away within five to seven years. Fall in love and want to have sex that goes away within five to seven years. So, if you think about, at first it's really easy to get aroused and then, over time it's harder and harder. It's most people tend to think, oh, what's wrong with me, or what's wrong with my partner Versus? Oh, there's a difference in terms of being with a person on a long term relationship, friends, in terms of being with a person on a long-term relationship. So how you, if you have had a baby and you're trying to recover from, get your body back on track from that and having all that overstimulation, then that's going to be a different issue about how do you as a woman kind of get some of your own kind of sense of authority back and being able to protect your body and not feel like it's just there for everybody's use?

Sarah 26:51

You know, I think that that's an issue. So it's knowing what the issues are. If it's that I am too busy and I never think about sex, that would be something. Unless we practice and we know this part of ourselves, we're not. It's not going to perform very well because we can't just take it out For men. Again, it's an easier thing to do. But being able to focus in on what you need, what you like, what the problems are like is it a relationship issue that's keeping me distant, or is it that I really am uncomfortable in my body? I don't like my body and I haven't learned how to let myself feel sensations. That's the main thing that I work with women about. Okay.

Tamara 27:39

And I just I was sorry, I was going to ask you, you, what are your like final thoughts or like, what are your takeaways that you want people to hear from this episode and just in your podcast in general, just like the message overall so, jj, why don't you start?

JJ 27:56

yeah, I just think that I think what I hope people take away is that one it's okay to listen to these podcasts. That too can be a stigma, right, like, oh, I don't even want to listen to dirty podcasts, they're dirty. It's like they're not dirty, they're educational and they're important. And we want to normalize this conversation. I think that's my hope is that we can normalize and people, the more they hear these things, that they can talk about it more. That's my personal experience.

JJ 28:20

You know it's a transformation that I have gone through just by being the producer of our series. It has literally impacted how I can talk about these things and for the for the better, right, it's lifted this pressure and I hope that that happens for others and I hope that it impacts someone enough to to to know that you know we all have our particular interests and I just hope that someone else extends the hand to like young boys and just say you know, if you have questions, please ask, because you know it can have a ripple effect. We just don't need more problematic boys in the world. I think that's my hope. You know not to pick on boys, but I'm a boy and it's hard for boys to ask questions. It's hard to talk about these things. So much shapes what we think should happen, particularly from popular culture, and you have to know popular culture is entertainment. Ask real hard questions.

Frank Talk

Sarah 29:20

And being able to understand what the boys and the men's perspective is and why it's hard for you to talk about these things because you haven't really had the permission to talk about them. I think for women, I think our issue has so much to do with our passivity, the myths we have around our sexuality is you know men will know what to do. You know, don't touch down there, don't wait till you're married. But then, when you're married, don't be that kind of a woman. There's so many negative messages about learning about your own body. What's important to them? That our sexuality is a core part of ourselves. If you choose, you don't want to be sexual, that's your choice. But it's not. But not from a place of shame or lack of information. And you know sex is fun. Have some fun. You know life is good. Let's enjoy our bodies and our relationships. So I would say that too, yeah.

JJ 30:28

That's a good message yeah.

Tamara 30:35

Yeah, awesome. All right, well, thank you very much for being on. Yes, definitely. If you like this episode, be sure to tell your friends about it and rate it as well. And yeah, like JJ said, go do your own research and learn, or just keep listening to this one and theirs. There you go All right.

Sarah 30:47

Thank you so much, thank you so much. Tamara, it's been such a pleasure being here with you, yeah.

JJ 30:51

Yeah, what a joy.

Tamara 30:52

Thank you Alrighty, bye everyone.

Outro 30:56

Frank Talk, frank Talk Sex and Dating Educates.