Straight from the Source's Mouth: Frank Talk about Sex and Dating
Are you perpetually single? Do you want longer-lasting relationships? Tired of the miscommunication and misunderstandings? Wish you were better in bed? Advice from experts as well as real talk from real people so that you can see you are not alone in your thoughts and experiences. I talk about sex in my stand-up comedy and people often tell me that I say what they are thinking but are too afraid to say or admit it to their partners; too taboo they think. We'll talk about books we've read on dating, relationships and sex so that you can gain knowledge without having to read all the books yourself. I'll interview people on both sides of an issue: people who are great at dating and unsuccessful at dating...learn from the person who's great and also learn what not to do! We'll do the same with sex and relationships so that you can learn what works so you don't need to repeat others' past mistakes. I'll interview sex coaches and love coaches. We intend this to be a how-to guide. Hit subscribe and join us!
Straight from the Source's Mouth: Frank Talk about Sex and Dating
#86 From Toxic Patterns to Personal Empowerment with Sonnet Daymont
Discover the keys to building healthy, fulfilling relationships with insights from our conversation with Sonnet Daymont, a seasoned marriage and family therapist. Gain a deep understanding of the complexities of toxic relationships and learn to spot harmful patterns that can impede personal growth. Sonnet shares her journey from working with children to specializing in complex trauma and abuse, offering a wealth of knowledge on the "dark triad" of personality traits often linked to abusive behaviors. We emphasize the importance of self-awareness and identifying personal needs to ensure consistent kindness from partners, guiding you toward relationships that uplift and empower.
Our discussion doesn't shy away from the challenges of online dating, especially for older adults. Drawing from Anderson's revelations in "Love Fraud" and "Senior Sociopaths," we highlight the ongoing risks posed by individuals with dark triad traits. Recognizing manipulative tactics like "love bombing" and understanding their roots in past trauma form a crucial part of our conversation. We also explore therapeutic avenues like bibliotherapy and trauma-informed massage therapy, providing actionable steps for healing and growth. With a focus on reparenting and self-care, this episode aims to equip you with the tools to transform your relationship landscape and nurture self-love.
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Welcome to the Straight from the Source's Mouth podcast. Frank talk about sex and dating.
Speaker 2:Hello, tamara here, welcome to the show. Today's guest is Sonnet Daymont. She's a licensed marriage and family therapist and we'll be talking about navigating toxic relationships, complex trauma and then red flags to look out for. Thanks for joining me, sonnet. Yeah, thank you for having me. Yeah, I think this will be a good topic for my listeners. Always, you know, you hear about narcissistic and toxic stuff quite a bit, but I don't know if you know just hearing exactly what to look out for, what it is exactly. Maybe people are in it and don't even know, especially like emotional abuse and stuff. So we can start with what got you into it, like a quick little you know, just like what caused you to be so interested in this.
Speaker 1:Sure, I guess I'll just tell you when I first started out professionally, I took a teaching fellowship working with young children, and it was through Pearson, which is a book publisher, working with young children, and it was through Pearson, which is a book publisher, and our goal there was to obviously teach young children. And when I was in the classroom.
Speaker 1:I kept feeling myself more drawn to the children who needed extra attention and extra help, and there was one little girl in particular that touched my heart. And as the school year came to an end, I decided to go back post-bachelors and get a degree in psychology so I could work with people who needed help with their emotions more so than their learning. And my first job out of college was working in a safe house with trafficked children and in that capacity we created curriculum to help them deprogram from sex traffickers, house them and kept them safe. And as I was doing that I learned a lot about different forms of abuse. And then later after that job, I worked as a personal assistant to a person who I think most people would agree had was somewhere on that spectrum and ended up getting in trouble and going to prison and all of these things. So being her assistant, having worked in those different environments where I got access to see the results of abuse and help people heal, led me to want to go back to grad school and become a therapist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I could see where that would. I was to say was she? So she was an abuser. So you saw the tail. You saw the first end of people on that side of it yeah, yeah. And then it could see exactly why it could happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I, I've been in a weird position where I've seen women as the abuser. Of course men obviously, you know, are more stereotypically the abuser when you picture an abuser. But I did work with a woman who was abused.
Speaker 2:I guess this kind of goes hand in hand with what she did also. But in relationships like, what are some of the? What would you, how would you describe a toxic relationship? What are some of the things that go on? So when you?
Speaker 1:find yourself in something that would be called quote unquote a toxic relationship. My view as a therapist would be that the relationship hinders the people from growing together and learning and enjoying life and caring for each other, and instead it takes them backwards.
Speaker 2:They're harming each other and they're feeling held back. Yeah, I can see that, Especially when the one person that's being held back knows they want to learn or grow and the other one isn't maybe trying to get help or see anything. Is that more common dynamic, I guess?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would say so. I mean a lot of times in these dynamics of a person if you're dealing with, like a narcissist or sociopath or someone, that's a dark triad and they're manipulative. It's possible that you're going to see that something's wrong, that it's holding you back, it's hurting you and you're going to want to make change and you're going to articulate that and try with them and they won't even see it or they'll feign if they go into couples therapy or somewhere with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can definitely see that I have a friend in a situation like that. And then you said dark triad. What does that mean? Is that someone that has a bunch of stuff? I'm guessing.
Speaker 1:So the dark triad would be personality disorders that are more likely to be abusive.
Speaker 2:So you would think like a malignant narcissist or a sociopath or antisocial personality disorder Are some red flags or stuff, like when you're first dating, like is there something you can tell early on to prevent you from even going far Well?
Speaker 1:I mean, I think when we're first dating, kind of knowing what our individual needs and wants are and being really clear on that and then going out and having fun and meeting people and seeing if we're a good fit and we're helping each other, is like a nice starting point for dating. And when you're in that headspace, as opposed to wanting to be liked or wanting to feel lovable or just wanting anybody, you're better able to kind of navigate, Like is this person treating me with kindness consistently? Am I being treated with respect consistently and am I kind of tuning into what, the way my body feels when I'm with them and it feels relaxed and happy when I leave them? Do I feel anxious or do I feel calm? Did I have like something that was relaxing and healthy and good and energizing and empowering to be around? And it's really kind of like paying attention to the self.
Speaker 1:And, um, you mentioned red flags. Like what are actual red flag indicators that the person could end up being abusive or unkind? And you know, the main red flag I tell men and women when I work with them in therapy to watch out for is sort of like consistency of kindness, Like if the person is kind and loving sometimes and then other times they are not, and you're constantly going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. How do you know where to keep your boundaries and how do you know what you're dealing with? And there's a big difference between someone who's going back and forth between kindness and unkindness and a person who gets emotionally reactive and snarls or cries or needs something from you that feels sort of unkind in the moment because they're having a hard time expressing themselves. And that big difference is that when you talk about it they are able to attune and apologize and then not do it again. They work to not do it again and you see that happening. It's not a cycle of over and over again. Yeah, I hope that was clear.
Speaker 2:No, yeah for sure. So, yeah, inconsistency and if they make you feel bad and or like, but, like you said, the first thing, having boundaries and knowing yourself and going out with a mindset of trying to find someone that fits your world, not just desperate to find anyone and desperate to have them. Like you, because I just had an episode where someone was scammed and there's a lot of online scams now on the dating sites and because there's someone looking for for anyone just want to be liked, they're more inclined to also fall for something like absolutely.
Speaker 1:I feel like those dating apps are just ripe for that, because people will go on those apps and they'll they'll just fill in exactly what they want and then if you're a predatory person looking to manipulate people, well, they just told you what they yeah. Yeah, so it's a. So it's a little ripe, right, and these are strangers on the internet. There's a book by Anderson called Love Fraud that talks a lot about the risks of online dating because of that, and there's another book I recommend to clients called how to Not Die Alone, by Yuri.
Speaker 2:On the show his recommended books. So I'm glad you mentioned it because I hadn't heard of the first one, Love fraud. But yeah, definitely Logan Uri's is really great.
Speaker 1:Anderson wrote another book. This is a scary title. It's called Senior Sociopaths and it's about research that's showing that we used to think that people that were narcissistic a dark triad right narcissistic, antisocial sociopath that they would get softer in age, they would be kinder. And now there's research that shows actually that's not true. A lot of times they are still abusive and more manipulative. And in that book, senior Sociopaths, I think she recommends this is a scary one.
Speaker 1:I apologize, but if you're over 55, to try to refrain from dating online because love fraud is just so ripe. The stats on it are really high.
Speaker 2:That's why I wanted to put that episode out. It happened to her a couple of years ago but she and it was very sophisticated scam, you know, she's, like you know, very intelligent and fell for the stuff. So, yeah, it's a lot other but and then I guess I mean then you would be dealing with toxic potentially but or it's just like someone fake altogether. They act so nice and so fake that, like there's kind of a weird, the ones that act too nice are the ones that are actually bad for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you've heard that term, love bombing, which refers to sort of the overwhelm of attention and love and kindness that can come on in early stages of dating someone who might end up being manipulative.
Speaker 2:Do they kind of go hand in hand? People who were victims or are survivors of complex trauma, I'm guessing are more ex-spouse or my sibling or whomever is engaged in a toxic relationship with me and I feel abused and we start doing CBT and EMDR and different forms of therapy to treat that.
Speaker 1:More often than not, when we look at the childhood, there's absolutely something going on where there was either bullying in school or, um, just flat out abuse and neglect with with their family of origin yeah, I've read.
Speaker 2:I read a lot, so I read again. I can't remember. I know fufu. I want to say on instagram she wrote a book about complex PTSD as a survivor of abuse and neglect, and I'm not, if I can.
Speaker 1:I know what book you're talking about. There's like a. It's a blue book and there's flowers all over the cover and it's like about immigration trauma too. I think Right.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, stephanie.
Speaker 1:Fu.
Speaker 2:Stephanie Fu yeah.
Speaker 1:That was a great book and so so, yeah, that's a great example. If you're familiar with that book, what I'll often do, I mean for the most part I see a lot of women who have gone through divorces with, with challenging ex -spouses, because I host a divorce group for women, and I can just tell you what we do in our curriculum, since you like we do in our curriculum, since you like to read. I mean, it's basically a bibliotherapy process where we sit down and we start with this book called Getting Past your Breakup by Susan Elliott, and I first learned about that book when I was in grad school because a client brought it into me and she said I read this book. I did all of these essay questions and I just want to make sure I'm on the right track. Can you look at it with me? And it was just brilliant. You know, it was really smart that this woman did this, and so the two of us went through and looked at it, and one of the things that book does in chapter six is it has the reader, whatever gender they identify, although typically I end up with a lot of women in my office.
Speaker 1:They go through and they do a series of like 13 questions where they dissect the relationship they were in. And the first three questions are the hardest and those are because the reader journals about what they liked about the relationship, what worked in the relationship, and then they have to feel and grieve through what they actually lost or imagined they were losing. And then the next 10 questions in that first section are basically like what are the behaviors that you were putting up with and what was the triggering in your personality? What were the ways in which you were acting that didn't feel like they were your real self, your grounded, happy, safe, secure self? And you end up with this big list of just kind of bullet points of what happened. This is the data of what happened in that relationship, and what I do is I'll have women do two more, pick two more Xs and do the same thing with them, and then we've got all this data for three Xs and then we sit there and we look at it and we circle what they have in common and then we bring in another. I think the next section is about 12 questions or so and it's on the people who raised you parents, and we do the same thing on the parents with similar questions and then we circle everything.
Speaker 1:What do these people have in common and I mean, it's just 100% of the time, I would say, of the people I meet where the things that they weren't having met, the needs they weren't having met, and just regurgitating, regurgitating, regurgitating, and the toxic relationship were there in the childhood. And it is. And I am not a psychodynamic therapist, I'm a CBT therapist and I just wish everything was as easy as CBT. You didn't have to bring the childhood in. But I mean, every time it's something that's happening in the childhood and we're just kind of trying to rework it. So then you've got all your data and you can consciously kind of look at it, it and everything that's circled. Those could be your red flags when you go out dating again. You could say, well, if people do these things, if they're moochie or um, they, um, put me down or they, you know, whatever the thing is that the parent did, that you're letting the partners do by staying yeah.
Speaker 2:And now it makes me bring up one more book, which you're probably not done, but I just want to get into the love you want. That's kind of. They actually do this as well. They have, but it's usually within a couple and you both do go through some things like this together in the book and you write a.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that would be a great way to do couples therapy. Unfortunately, I get people at the end, but I will definitely prep them with lots of books on educating yourself on what a healthy relationship is, before you go back out there and date again, and I really encourage the pause. Don't date right away, even if I'll self-disclose I got divorced at 40. Even if I'll self-disclose, I got divorced at 40. No one wants to get divorced at 40.
Speaker 1:No one wants to get divorced at 55, 65 either. No one wants to get divorced at 25. Everyone.
Speaker 1:I talk to is like, but at this age even worse. But it is really easy at any of those ages to say, oh no, there's a race, there's a hurry, I need to find another partner right away. No, like that, yeah, just slow and like, really like. Look, look at your data. Like what happened in your childhood, what happened in your other relationships and in this last one, what can you learn from, from auditing that and coming up with a strategy for your own healing so that when you go out and date, you are, your cup is filled and you're just finding someone to set your cup next to you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I definitely agree, Cause it wasn't until I started doing this podcast three years ago that I finally took a break from dating myself. Like I had interviewed enough people that I was like you know what I actually need a break. And I Like I had interviewed enough people that I was like you know what I actually need a break and I took I was going to be like three months and I did six and it just yeah, it was like really helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, people say that that six month mark is like the golden spot. Right, I'm trying to remember there was one book on this toxic relationships. I want to say it was Jackson McKenzie's Psychopath Free or Whole Again one of his books. And someone in there talked about waiting six months, that if you can just get six months you'll be a lot clearer and then at that point it might be safe. But don't jump in before then. Now it's really hard to say that there's hard and fast rules, because everybody's life is different. But if there was ever a hard and fast rule to try, it would be waiting six months before you date again, at least Even if yeah, like dating, dating like maybe.
Speaker 2:Or you're saying like even go on a date for fun or just not a serious relationship within six months, or you say dating.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, I don't know. I don't know why you would need to be going on dates. You know, like, date yourself, date yourself, date, make good friends and really do the internal work to like read a bunch of books on the type of relationship you were in and a bunch of books on the type of relationship you want. It is a lot easier to go out there and date and you know what a healthy relationship looks like and you have kind of some semblance of what you've been through and what you'd like to go through instead next time. And then when someone presents you with you know, these are my favorite places to travel, these are my favorite foods, these are my favorite kind of movies.
Speaker 1:Instead of going, oh, I don't have any, let me try yours. You can say, oh, these are mine. Let's share with each other and get to know each other as whole people and yeah, and then if someone starts trying to break down your identity and like telling you that things you like are dumb and you're going to do the things they like, you're going to notice yeah, and that's the bottom line of most relationships, or everything is just love yourself, and which is harder or easier said than done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if everyone came from self-love and had great childhoods and or learn from them, and yeah, prosper and he thrived.
Speaker 1:But there's some benefit to having a challenging childhood and then growing up and reparenting yourself, because I firmly believe that leadership skills come from figuring out how to do things yourself a little late, because then you can articulate to others as an adult how to do those things when they can't, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, definitely. I mean my parents were raised to be very resilient and independent adult. How to do those things when they can't, if that makes sense? No, yeah, definitely, I mean I, I, my parents, were raised us to be very resilient and independent. Yeah, like figured out, we were out by 18, like they taught us how to be adults, like that was their goal. So it wasn't necessarily, as you know, comforting and soft as some people would, but we definitely, you know, became great adults good, yeah, yeah, it would have been nice if that was soft.
Speaker 1:And then you got out into the adult world and all the people were soft too. Yeah, the world is not so, no, but there are soft people. And, um, you know that, on that healing trajectory, one of the things I work with people on after we go through and audit the past, is boundaries and figuring out, like you know, how does someone qualify to be my partner? How does someone qualify to be a close friend to me? How does someone qualify to be a friend to me? How does someone qualify to be my acquaintance? When do I get to say enough is enough and I don't even interact with a person anymore? And we really break those down and have a bit of an action plan for how you know when someone's worthy to know about your childhood or your secrets or touch your body or any of those things. Right, like people need to build up, uh, trusted. You have to get to know them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I was actually going to ask you like what to look out for the other person, but you already said it earlier that it's more about how you feel and what, what you can tell unless they're, unless they're, I guess, manipulative kind of stuff to look out for, or, you know, like the ones that, like you said, we said love bombing earlier, but more, like I don't know, the ones that are good at hiding it until you fall in love, Like, is there a way to figure that out earlier than later? They do all the right things in the beginning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that's absolutely a thing, right, the love bombing and being perfect early on, and then you don't really see things coming. It comes later and you know, I think the best way to navigate that is, like you said, to really know and love yourself. Because if someone starts whittling away at your um, your favorite things, and before you know it you're sort of putting their life first, you are going to see it because you're going to be giving up your favorite things that you loved doing with yourself and in terms of, like general overall red flags, like if we went to, ywca is an amazing resource for women that are involved in toxic relationships, abusive relationships. I believe that they will see men too, but it's a tender, more vulnerable experience for men. A lot of times when men get help, they go to a therapist. But nonetheless, ywca will have a list of. Some of the websites will have a list of like these are the most common red flags. Like this is how you know someone's abusive or Planned Parenthood will put out little blog posts. You'll see these things floating around the internet all the time Isolation, name calling, limiting your access to money, things like that are super common Kind of quote unquote red flags. But I, as a therapist, you know you've mentioned the word complex trauma a couple times.
Speaker 1:I tend to see that these relationships can pop up with multiple partners and I truly believe that the way to stop regurgitating situations like that is to put that time into auditing the experiences you've had childhood, former dating, um, like I self-disclosed in my bosses. Figure out like what am I missing here? What are the perfect red flags for me to not even see? And you've got them all on paper. And then those. Those are the things that you watch for with people. You really learn about those Absolutely. If someone calls you a name on a first or second date or puts you down, that's a red flag. But someone whose parents have been putting them down or who's been on the social media since they were 10, getting put down because of their looks or anything you know, they might not even notice. They might not notice because they're used to getting put down. So how do you, how do you catch a red flag if you haven't kind?
Speaker 1:of looked at everything and figured out where your no's are and figured out how to say no, figured out boundaries a little bit. You could do that in six months. People do that in six months all the time. There's a lot of books. I've named off a bunch. I'm sure you've named off more books than you have just here with me. There's a lot of information out there when you're ready to start healing and if you don't like to read, someone will go on YouTube and read a book.
Speaker 1:You just have to push, play and read to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And of course, podcasts like this are popular.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is great. This is even better than a book, right? Because you're able to like get in there and ask me questions. It's like asking a book a question.
Speaker 2:And I was on that note what, like? What's the common thing for some of your patients or what? What have you found that works? I know, obviously probably self-love and working and figuring out what those are, but is there anything?
Speaker 1:I really love that, that book. I was telling you about getting past your breakup and doing that audit and sort of committing to the self that, like, these are the things I'm going to work on giving myself. These are the things that I was having challenges with with previous partners, with my parents. I didn't get enough of. Now how am I going to give these things to myself? And then you come up with an action plan and you start giving them to yourself. You start healing, reparenting, and you can do that simultaneously while you have your own children too. It's a good example for your children to see you being really kind and loving to yourself, separate from all of that.
Speaker 1:The actual brain chemistry of being in these relationships with people that are incredibly stressful to be around, right, not emotionally safe. Our physical body reacts when you're releasing adrenaline and cortisol all the time because you're walking on eggshells that your partner is going to make a decision you don't like and you don't think. You have the ability to say no. You're stressed and it's affecting your stomach, it's affecting your brain chemistry, it's affecting how you sleep, which affects everything else. So a big piece of healing from these types of dynamic is healthy exercise and healthy nutrition and sleep and just caring for yourself. So often I mean just so incredibly often people come in to talk to me after a toxic relationship with a former partner or a work experience and they are not sleeping. They're just not sleeping and I'll be like how many hours did you sleep this last week? I don't know. Maybe four hours, four hours in a week, is dangerous to your health. Um yeah, and so getting back on track with sleeping, exercising, eating healthy there's no shame in going to a doctor and getting evaluated for medication so that you can sleep again. When you figure that out with your doctor a week or two later, after you've started sleeping again, what you want to do with it.
Speaker 1:But making sure you have access to sleep is so important. Making sure that you start figuring out how to connect to and love your body again is so important. Exercise, even if it's just a couple walks around the block looking for flowers that are your favorite color or signs that are your favorite color. Whatever you see If you're in a city there might not be many flowers. I'm a huge fan of trauma-informed massage. Massage therapy is so healing and important and helpful, getting back into your body and getting strong again and you know learning how to say no to people touching you is so important. And yes, and what healthy touch is? You learn so much from trauma-informed massage. I think it's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was actually going to ask is it someone that knows it and touches you a certain way, or how is it called trauma-informed?
Speaker 1:Well you, would ask the massage therapist if they are a trauma-informed massage therapist, and usually how that would differ from a normal massage is they will be more mindful that you've experienced trauma, so they'll have an awareness that they will start slower when they press on muscles and that they'll ask permission and that if you flinch or twitch they'll be paying more attention and they'll say are you okay with this, are you okay with that?
Speaker 2:A massage, but they're more in tune to how you are reacting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think there's an actual. There may be some certifications for that. I've never asked a massage therapist if that's something they were certified before. But I always ask if they do trauma-informed massage and I do refer my clients to massage therapists that are trauma-informed massage and I do refer my clients to massage therapists that are trauma-informed.
Speaker 2:So if people can work with you I know you're based in Los Angeles Can you do online stuff with other people and how can they reach you and what programs?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I am a licensed marriage and family therapist in California. So if you have a diagnosis in California and you want to see me as your therapist, I can work with you online. If you do not have a diagnosis and you're in another state, I can work with you as a coach. But if you want to treat like PTSD or CPTSD, it might get into a position where you want to work with a therapist that's licensed in your state.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love to work with people online. The benefit to online is that you feel really empowered because you're kind of doing the brunt of the work. There's deficits to online You're not going out into the world and giving opportunity for fun experiences, interactions, like you never know who you're going to meet if you stop in the cafe on your way to therapy or what you're going to learn and if you do therapy in person, especially EMDR. I really like to do EMDR in person because I can watch the full body language of the person and I can kind of teach them a little bit of how to do it themselves online later.
Speaker 2:And then is there a website, or how do you, how do you reach? How can they work?
Speaker 1:Oh, if, someone wanted to work with me personally. I would love it. I would welcome that. Um, my first and last name is Sonnet Daymont, so it's just sonnetdaymontcom.
Speaker 2:And then, um, I know you mentioned your divert divorce program. Is that more for um, like people that are already your clients and then you kind of work with them as well in a group setting, or is that?
Speaker 1:something you offer online. So I have that online and what I do is I just put little posts on psychology today and I say, hey, do you want to do a divorce workshop or a divorce group? And then people will email me and they say when's your next one? And then I email them back and tell them. So if you wanted to do a divorce workshop with me or a divorce group, I would say, just get on my website and send me a message or an email and I'll put you on the wait list.
Speaker 2:All right, well, are there any kind of closing comments? You want to make sure people understand about dealing with toxic stuff?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think the most important thing would be that these relationships, you know, can be temporary. You don't have to keep doing this. Even if you wake up in your 60s or your 70s going through what they call a gray divorce, or you're in your 60s or your 70s and you're like man, my boss is awful, then you can still learn a lot and do a lot of work so that you can have more relief and fun. There's not like a too late mark I hear people say that at every age group and it's total BS that you can do this work really, really fast and you can get relief and you can go in there and have more fun and enjoy your life. Life is so short and if we tell ourselves that we don't have time to do this work, we're too old to do this work, we're missing out on a lot of relief and fun. My life is much better than it was when I was in my twenties. You know you can have a better life.
Speaker 2:For sure, yeah, I definitely agree. It gets better when as you age, because you care less about what people think, which is probably, I think, the most freeing thing about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah Right, Isn't it? That's a big part of why why it feels better. But, but also just like that, loving yourself piece and um and learning to say no and um, all of it. You give yourself the space to come up with an action plan for a strategy for life you love, and then you just do the best you can to trust yourself, to adapt to all these things the world's going to throw at you, while you keep moving towards enjoying your experience, making art, finding people that are kind to love. Those are things I like Connections, friendships, art, cooking. Find the things you love and figure out how to energize yourself so you can go do them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I said, and then take that six-month break to figure that out if you don't already. Yeah, yeah, thank you very much for being on. I think people can learn a lot from this, and especially how to navigate and learn about themselves from the books you mentioned. So thank you very much and if you like this episode, be sure to tell your friends about it and rate it as well. And thank you again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you very much.
Speaker 2:Alrighty Bye everyone, thank you.
