#105 What if time doesn’t heal betrayal—and awareness does?

Your “stress” might have a name—betrayal—and a roadmap out. We sit down with Dr. Debi Silber, founder of The PBT Institute, to unpack why betrayal is unlike any other trauma and how a clear, five-stage process can move you from shock to a stronger, wiser self. Debi shares the research behind post-betrayal syndrome—those stubborn triggers, sleep issues, gut problems, and trust wounds that linger for years—and explains why time alone doesn’t close this chapter. You’ll hear the stats that stop you in your tracks and the mindset shifts that get you moving again.

We trace the journey from discovery day to survival mode, then through the crucial pivot into a “new normal” where you start setting boundaries, dropping what no longer fits, and choosing relationships that match your standards. Debi makes the trap of Stage Three unmistakable: it feels better than chaos, so you camp there, collecting sympathy and repeating your story. The way out is willingness. When you choose progress over familiarity, you turn down the stress response and open space for real change. By Stage Five, your body has energy for self-care, your mind runs on healthier rules, and trust in yourself becomes the foundation for trusting others wisely.

Debi also details support at The PBT Institute for betrayed partners, betrayers ready to change, and practitioners seeking certification to guide clients through predictable transformation. If you’ve wondered why you still feel stuck—why triggers hijack your day or why walls won’t drop—this conversation gives you language, structure, and hope you can use today. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review to help more people find their way from survival to renewal.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome & Guest Introduction
• 0:34 Why Betrayal Isn’t “Just Stress”
• 0:58 Debbie’s Story: Family and Marital Betrayal
• 2:03 Three Discoveries That Changed Everything
• 2:28 Discovery One: A Unique Trauma
• 2:54 Discovery Two: Post-Betrayal Syndrome
• 4:17 Discovery Three: Five Predictable Stages
• 5:09 The Stats Behind Betrayal Symptoms
• 8:28 Stage One to Three: Shock to Survival
• 11:04 The Trap of Stage Three
• 13:20 Moving to Stage Four: New Normal
• 15:21 Stage Five: Healing and Rebirth
• 16:11 Can Everyone Reach Stage Five?
• 16:37 Programs at The PBT Institute
• 18:12 Why Willingness Beats Time

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Welcome to the Straight from the Source's Mouth Podcast. Frank talk about sex and dating. Hello, it's Amber here. Welcome to the show. Today's guest is Dr. Debbie Silber. She's a best-selling author and speaker, and we'll be talking about betrayal. Thanks for joining me, Debbie.

SPEAKER_01: 0:15

Uh, thanks so much. Looking forward to our conversation.

SPEAKER_00: 0:18

I the one thing that caught my eye with your information was people think it's stress, but really it's potentially something that happened, like a betrayal that may have happened. Um, but yeah, we can talk about where start wherever you want to start. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 0:34

Okay. Yeah, I'm in business 34 years, health, mindset, personal development. And then I had a uh painful betrayal from my family. And I thought I did all I needed to do to heal from that. And then it happened a few years later. This time it was my husband. So that was the deal breaker. Got him out of the house and looked at the two experiences, thinking, like, what's what's going on here? And you know, I'm one of those people that believes if nothing changes, nothing changes. So usually I go to books or courses and there wasn't anything available to help me heal. So this was for me the biggest thing that I had ever experienced uh as far as this type of pain. So I decided to study it at the PhD level. So here he was, four kids, six dogs, a thriving business, and I enrolled in a PhD program just to help me heal and to help my clients. And um, that study led to three groundbreaking discoveries, which changed my health, my family, my work, my life.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28

What you said you discovered three breakthrough things. What do you want to start by talking about those? Or sure.

SPEAKER_01: 1:34

Okay. So the first was I had a feeling that betrayal was a different type of trauma. I'd been through Death of a Loved one, I'd been through disease, but betrayal felt different for me. I didn't want to assume it was the same for all my study participants, so I asked them, if you've been through other traumas besides betrayal, does it feel different for you? And unanimously, they said it's so different. And here's why: because it feels so intentional, we take it so personally. So the self gets shattered and has to be rebuilt. Rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust. Like when you lose someone you love, you grieve, you're sad, you know, you mourn the loss, but you don't question the relationship. You don't question your ability to trust. With betrayal, you do. So that betrayal is a different type of trauma that needs a different way to heal. That was the first discovery.

SPEAKER_00: 2:22

Okay. Yeah. And I assume you're ready to say the second, or do you want to say more about the first? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 2:27

Sure. So the second was that there's actually this collection of symptoms, physical, mental, and emotional, so common to betrayal. It's now known as post-betrayal syndrome. We've had over 100,000 people take our post-betrayal syndrome quiz on our site to see to what extent they're struggling. You know, the first thing is we've all been told and taught time heals all wounds. I have the proof that when it comes to betrayal, that's not true. There's a question on the quiz that says, is there anything else you'd like to share? And people write things like, My betrayal happened 35 years ago. I'm unwilling to trust. You know, so we know we can't count on time. We can't even count on a new relationship to heal it. Unless and until we deliberately and intentionally heal it, it will follow us around in our work, in our health, in our relationships.

SPEAKER_00: 3:16

Wow. Yeah, that doesn't sound good. So I'm hoping the third one is how you actually heal it.

SPEAKER_01: 3:22

Yeah, sure. So the third, and I'm happy to share the stats from the post-betrayal syndrome quiz if you want, but I'll go into the third. The third discovery was this was the most exciting. And what we learned was while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, and many people do, if we're going to fully heal, and by fully heal, I mean symptoms of post-betrayal syndrome, which I'm happy to share after, to this completely rebuilt place called post-betrayal transformation, where you rebuild your life and yourself. We will move through five proven predictable stages. And what's even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally, and emotionally at every stage. And we know what we need to do in order to move from one stage to the next. Healing's entirely predictable.

SPEAKER_00: 4:07

Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, and I think, like you said, maybe go back to stay the second step with the quiz to figure out like how bad it is, basically, I would think. Sure.

SPEAKER_01: 4:17

Okay, and then happy to go through the stages if you want to hear them. So um imagine a hundred thousand people, men and women, uh, just about every country is represented. And while you're gonna hear the symptoms, listen for the numbers. 78% constantly revisit their experience. 81% feel a loss of personal power. When you lose your personal power, think of the decisions you make, right? 94% deal with painful triggers, the most common physical symptoms. 71% have low energy, 68% have sleep issues, 63% have extreme fatigue. So you go to sleep, you wake up, you're exhausted. 47% have weight changes. So in the beginning, maybe you can't hold food down. Later on, you're emotionally eating. Very, very common. 45% have a digestive issue. And that could be anything. Crohn's, IBS, tiberticulitis, whatever. The most common mental symptoms. 78% are overwhelmed, uh, 64% are in shock, 62% can't concentrate. So imagine you can't concentrate, you're exhausted, you have a gut issue, you know, you still have to raise your kids, you still have to go to work, yes, you still have to take care of, you know, elderly parents. That's not even emotional. Emotionally, 88% experience extreme sadness. 82%, I'm sorry, 83% are very angry, and you're gonna be bouncing back and forth between those two all day long. Uh, 79% are stressed. I'll just read a few more. This is why I wrote my book, Trust Again. This one killed me. 84% have an inability to trust. Think about what that's gonna do as far as future relationships. 67% prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being hurt again. The big wall goes up, they keep everyone at a distance. 82% find it hard to move forward, 90% want to move forward, but they don't know how. Now, what's crazy about those stats is first of all, you didn't hear me say 20%, 30%. The numbers are super high. They're also not representative of a recent betrayal. This could be from the parent who did something awful when you were a kid. This could be from, you know, the partner who broke your heart in high school. So this person may not know, care, remember. I mean, they didn't may not even be alive. And here we are, years, decades later, with these symptoms, because it was left unhealed. The good news is you can heal from all of it, which I mentioned. That was a third discovery.

SPEAKER_00: 6:46

Yeah, I'm definitely ready to hear about that. It sounds that as soon as you mentioned something, I was like, oh, I think I might have one of these. So let me let me hear this.

SPEAKER_01: 6:54

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you want me to go through the five stages? Yeah. Okay. So this is all we do within the PBT Institute. It's what I certify all of our coaches and practitioners in. I'm gonna give you a super boiled-down version. Stage one is before it happens. And if you can imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. What I saw with everybody, me too, was a heavy lean on the physical and the mental thinking and doing, and kind of neglecting or ignoring the emotional and the spiritual feeling and being. Well, if a table only has two legs, it's going to be easy for that table to topple over. That's us. Stage two, shock, trauma, D-Day, discovery day. This is the scariest of all of the stages. And this is where the person just kind of takes a mask off and reveals who they've been. And it's the breakdown of the body, the mind, and the worldview. So, right here, you've ignited the stress response. You're headed for every single stress-related symptom, illness, condition, disease. Your mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm. You cannot wrap your mind and understand what just happened. Makes no sense. And your worldview has just been shattered. That's your mental model, the rules that govern you that prevent chaos. Trust this person, don't go there. These are the rules. And in one earth shattering moment or series of moments, every rule you've been following is no longer true. The bottom has bottomed out and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet. So it's terrifying, right? But think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do? You'd grab hold of anything or anyone in order to stay safe and stay alive. That's stage three. Survival instincts emerge. This is the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can't help me, get out of my way. How do I survive this? Where do I go? Who can I trust? Here's the trap, though. Stage three by far is the most common place we get stuck. And here's why. Once we've figured out how to survive our experience, because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma we just came from, we think it's good. And because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we don't know there's a stage four or a stage five. Transformation doesn't even begin until stage four. But because we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we plant roots here. We're not supposed to, but we don't know that. And four things start to happen. The first thing is we start getting all of these small self-benefits. We get our story, we get to be right, we get sympathy, you know, from everyone we share our story with. And on some level, we're so unhappy, we think this is good. So we take it. And now because we're here longer than we should be, now the mind starts doing things like, you know, maybe you're not that great. Maybe you deserved it. Maybe this, maybe that. So we plant deeper roots. And now, because these are the thoughts we're thinking, this is the energy we put out. Like energy attracts like energy. So now we start attracting new people and circumstances and relationships to confirm, yep, this is where we belong. Here's where we'll join some lame support group and everybody's complaining and commiserating, and we will sabotage our healing and our growth because we found our people. Here's where we go to therapy. And if that therapist is not highly skilled in betrayal, well-meaning, you're gonna feel heard, validated, understood. You're not an inch closer to stage four. And you're doing that over and over and over again, actually solidifying your spot in stage three. Here's where you may be healing, but your betrayer has no intention of changing. So you keep sabotaging yourself because you're afraid to outgrow your betrayer. It gets worse, but I'll get chatter. Because it feels so bad, but we don't know there's anywhere else to go, we have to get through our day. So right here, we start numbing, avoiding, distracting. We start using food, drugs, alcohol, whatever, you know, to numb avoid distress. So we do it for a day, a week, a month. Now it's a habit, a year, 10 years, 20 years. And I can see someone 20 years later and say, you know, that emotional eating you're doing, that drinking you're doing, do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? They'd look at me like I'm crazy. They'd say it happened 20 years ago. All they did was put themselves in stage three and stay there. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00: 11:09

Oh yeah. Yeah, I can see that.

SPEAKER_01: 11:11

Yeah, yeah. Uh anyway, if you're willing, uh willingness is a big word right here, to grieve more than the loss, bunch of things you need to do, you move to stage four. Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. So here's where you acknowledge I can't undo what happened, but I control what I do with it. Right there in that decision, you're starting to turn down the stress response. You're not healing just yet, but at least you stop the massive damage that was going on in stages two and stage three. Stage four feels like if you've ever moved, if you've ever moved to a new house office, whatever. Your stuff's not there, you know, it's not quite cozy yet, but it's this sort of hopeful excitement. Feels like that. But think about it. If you were planning on moving, you wouldn't take everything with you. You know, you don't take the things that don't represent who you're now ready to become. And what I found was there's this one spot as people go from stage three to stage four. If your friends weren't there for you, they're not coming along. That lame support group, you're done. That therapist who doesn't understand betrayal, you're done. That betrayer who's not changing, you're done. And people ask me all the time, you know, Dr. Debbie, what the heck is it me? Yes, it is. You're undergoing a transformation. And if they don't rise, they don't come along. Anyway, when we've settled into this space, we've made it mentally cozy, we've made it home, we move into the fifth most beautiful stage. And this is healing, rebirth, and a new worldview. The body starts to heal. Self-love, self-care, eating well, exercise. We we couldn't do that earlier. We weren't ready. Um, the mind is healing. We're making all kinds of new rules, new boundaries based on the road we just traveled. And we have a new worldview based on everything we see so clearly now. And the four legs of that table in the beginning, it was all about the physical and the mental. By this point, we're solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are the five stages.

SPEAKER_00: 13:03

Okay. Yeah, that's sounds awesome. Uh is it common to get all the way through five, or I guess with people you work with, that's how that's that's what we do.

SPEAKER_01: 13:11

I mean, that's our our coaches are certified in moving people through the five stages.

unknown: 13:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 13:17

And do you want to share about what your program is and how to reach you and that kind of information?

SPEAKER_01: 13:22

Sure. So everything is at the PBT as in post-betrayal transformation, the pbtinstitute.com. So our we have programs for the betrayer uh in a different community, ones who are ready to become someone they're proud of. We have uh our reclaim program for the betrayed, where they meet privately with our coaches, they go to daily live classes, they have our signature program, all of that, and we have our certification program where I certify coaches and practitioners to uh predictably move someone through the five stages. Because whether you're a therapist, a coach, a healer of some kind, it's very likely a lot of your clients are coming your way, and at the root of it is an unhealed betrayal. Like, think about it. Let's say you're the best gut expert. 45% of everyone betrayed has a digestive issue. You can be the best gut expert and suggest this great protocol. But if you know the five stages and you know that betrayal is likely at the root of it, think about how much bigger and greater of a transformation your clients and patients can have. So, yeah, all of it is it is is at the pbtinstitute.com.

SPEAKER_00: 14:29

Okay. Well, thank you for the information. And yeah, it's funny you said gut class, because I'm actually in a gut class, and it's I'm sure like she would be would like to know this information too. That because she she does know it's a full you know, whole person, like functional medicine, looking at the whole person stuff, but and I've heard this information before-ish, but not to this extent. So it's good that there is hope for people.

SPEAKER_01: 14:53

Oh, that hope, it's predictable. If someone's willing to do it, we gotcha.

SPEAKER_00: 14:57

Yeah. Okay. Do you have anything more to say or anything else you wanted to add about it? I mean, it's pretty cut, pretty cut and dry, but obviously you're not going through the steps. Yeah, yeah, sure. How long does it usually take someone to or situation dependent or yeah, I would say it has more to do with willingness than time.

SPEAKER_01: 15:19

That's really the truth. You could if you're willing, you will move through the stage stages way quicker than someone who just has their story and they're sticking with it. Or is numbing avoiding distracting, or you know, they just don't have any consequence like the if the betrayer has no consequences, you know. It's and and they they're just acting as if everything is fine. You know, these you're not gonna heal if that's the case. If you're willing to move through it, um, that's 90% of the battle.

SPEAKER_00: 15:49

Yeah. And if someone is if someone you know is in stage three or seems to be stuck in that stage, is there something you can offer them?

SPEAKER_01: 15:56

I mean, obviously tell them about your program, but is there like some words of wisdom to share to Yeah, you know I it's it's very common to stay stuck there because you don't know there's anywhere else to go. So when you know the stages, if you knew what stage four and five felt like for a minute, you'd never stay in stage three. It's just a stuck the the a familiar place. The only benefit is that it's what you know. But there were so many things in your life that you didn't know and then you did it, and now you know. So this is one of those things. Don't take familiarity as good. It's only familiar.

SPEAKER_00: 16:35

Yeah, yeah, I can see that. Is there anything else you want to share about any of those areas or have the short and sweet? Which one?

SPEAKER_01: 16:45

Yeah, you know, I would say really one of the most common things is that when you're betrayed, you take it personally. And and you know, if you have to say this a million times, it's worth it. Even though it happened to you, it's not about you. You know, I work with the betrayers as well. They have their own community within uh the PBT Institute, and they confirm it all day long. It had nothing to do with their partner, it had everything to do with their lack, their unhealed trauma, their sense of entitlement, their whatever. Never that it's an excuse, but it's not about it's not about the person they betrayed.

SPEAKER_00: 17:22

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that's helpful to hear. Or once you start believing it, I'm sure that's in one of the later phases of where you actually do. Yeah. All right. Well, like so we can leave it here if you're good with the information, or if there's anything else you wanted to like. I know you just kind of did a last moment thing, so, or a final thoughts. You have yet another final thought, or we'll call it good.

SPEAKER_01: 17:44

Uh, you know, I would say just there's staying stuck is a choice. Healing is predictable. So as long as you know there are five stages, you have access to them. There's nothing, there's nothing stopping you from moving through the stages except for a lack of awareness, and now you know.

SPEAKER_00: 18:01

Awesome. Yes, I mean, thank you so much for this information. I think short and sweet will help because, like you said, they can reach out to you and they can recognize that they might be stuck in stage three, since you said so many probably are. Yeah. So there is a better life and there's hope. So, all right. Well, thank you again. And if you love this episode and found it helpful, be sure to tell your friends about it and rate it as well. And thank you so much for listening and thank you for being on Dr. Debbie. Thank you. All right, thanks everyone.

SPEAKER_01: 18:30

Frank saw! Frank Sawk! Sex and dating and two kids.