Survive High-Conflict Divorce And Protect Your Kids #123

Some breakups end; others turn into a campaign of control fought through motions, money, and your children. We invited Lisa Johnson, co-founder of Been There Got Out and a certified domestic violence advocate, to walk us through the reality of legal abuse and how to regain power when an ex weaponizes the system. She shares how abandonment triggers can fuel rage, smear campaigns, and endless filings—and why the smartest response is a steady, documented, and strategic one.

If you’re navigating a high-conflict divorce, you’re not alone—and you don’t have to white-knuckle it. Listen, share with a friend who needs it, and subscribe for more candid, expert-backed conversations. If this helped, leave a review so others can find it too.

Transcript

Meet Lisa Johnson And Her Mission

Intro 0:00

Welcome to the Straight from the Source's Mouth podcast. Frank talk about sex and dating.

Tamara 0:06

Hello. Tamra here. Welcome to the show. Today's guest is Lisa Johnson. She's the co-founder of Ben There Got Out, a high conflict divorce strategist and certified domestic violence advocate. Thanks for joining me, Lisa. Thank you. Got started because of your own divorce.

Lisa 0:22

Do you want to talk about that first or um my own divorce with what I do? Um Yeah, well, I guess I should probably say what I do. So high conflict divorce strategist, um, my partner Chris and I are the co-founders of something called Been There Got Out. And um, we help people in only the worst uh separations, divorces, custody battles, and co-parenting hell. And we specialize in something called legal abuse, and that's where our clients' exes are basically using the legal system to wear them down and bleed them dry financially. And I spent 10 years in the legal system with my ex, seven and a half years representing myself through probably like a hundred court appearances in two states, and it took a long time for justice and karma to prevail, but it finally did. And so now Chris and I work with men and women all over the world dealing with um the same kinds of issues, which of course we say divorce is just part one, and then there's the the post-separation part two.

Tamara 1:26

And as far as the first part, why is it that abusive people won't just let it go and move on generally? Is it something about them particularly that Yeah?

Why Abusers Won’t Let Go

Lisa 1:36

So it's really weird because we live in a logical world and we think that everybody's angry when you break up. The anger subsides, and when you have children, you kind of realize how expensive divorce is, and you start realizing, okay, we're gonna start settling down and try to pay these bills and move forward and do what's fair and what's best for the kids. But when you're dealing with someone who has an active addiction or some kind of personality disorder, one of their greatest fears is abandonment. And so when a relationship ends, even if it's their fault mostly because of their own bad behavior, that triggers that sense of abandonment. And so instead of dealing with that really scary, uncomfortable emotion, it turns into rage. And they do something called splitting, which is seeing the world in black and white, and they they see themselves as the victim and you're the villain. And so then the goal becomes not to move on, but to punish you and prove to everyone that they're right, you're wrong, and they will do they will go to any lengths to do what's called smear campaigns to try to destroy your reputation and your community, with your friends, with you know, where your your religious organizations, anything, try to ruin your career because they wanna they want to punish you for what what's happened.

What Legal Abuse Looks Like

Tamara 3:01

Yeah, like I said, I did know someone in that um situation, and also like you said, turning the kids against them, like that's what happened to him, you know, just souring him on souring him to everyone around him, including his son. Yeah. And then you mentioned post-separation post-separation, legal abuse is like the second phase. Is that kind of what you're talking here? But how how far does it go usually?

Years In Court And Self-Representation

Lisa 3:24

Yeah, so um, so legal abuse is I I didn't know what that word meant till just a few years ago. I just knew that my divorce and post-divorce was so different than anyone else I knew because I was in court all the time. And when I hadn't seen my friends for a while, they'd be like, What you're still in court? Like, isn't it over yet? And it was like, no. So um I discovered that word, and then we, Chris and I with Been There Got Out, decided to start what's called the legal abuse support group because I thought I can't be the only one dealing with it. And supposedly at that time, there was about 60,000 people in America alone dealing with legal abuse. And so legal abuse is really there's there's other names for it. It's also called litigation abuse, paper abuse because of all the paper wasted in filing all these motions, uh, judicial terrorism, and my favorite is stalking through the courts because once your ex is not in the same household as you, they're limited to ways to still get to you. And the their favorite and the main ones are money, kids, and the court. So money and the court go hand in hand, and kids last the longest, and that's what maybe we'll talk about in a little while about alienating children. But with legal abuse, there's two types. So one is um what's called vexatious litigation, and that's where our clients' exes will file all kinds of motions without merit, usually to threaten and harass, like, I'm gonna take the kids from you, you're an unfit parent, I'm gonna take all the money away. And so we live in this constant state of fear of like, what's the next thing that's gonna happen? And I'll have to drop everything and pay a lawyer and take off work, and I can't focus on my life and parenting because of that kind of legal abuse. The other type of legal abuse is what I dealt with for all those years, and that's someone who does not comply with an agreement or a court order. So then the burden is on me to keep taking that person back to court to get enforcement on our orders. So we went through parts of our case during COVID. There were all kinds of delays, the case moved to a different state, part of the case moved to a different state. My ex is very wealthy and kept hiring lots of lawyers, and so it was a matter of like it dragging on and on. And my ex's lawyers were very good at uh creating confusion where none existed, so it ended up distracting from um their my ex's responsibilities to stick to the court order. And so finally it took a long time, but like I said, justice and karma were served beautifully. Um, and then we could finally move forward. But this is the kind of thing that goes on for years with people like not just me, but our our clients, where they're very successful in other areas of their lives and they're often looked at as role models. And when people hear that they're experiencing this, they sometimes say things that can end up being really hurting, like, well, why did you stay with someone like that? Or how could you not have known? I never thought someone like you would fall for someone like that. And so you end up feeling even more isolated and full of shame because people just don't understand and they think somehow it's your fault. But it's really that the system that you're turning to for relief ends up making things worse because it's so slow. And when justice isn't served swiftly and and um you know, like harshly for to someone that deserves it, that person becomes emboldened because they see, oh, I'm getting away with it. So it's really, really tough.

Tamara 6:52

Yeah, I can see that. And I know you said or you had to basically be your own lawyer and fight it that way. Do you want to talk about that at all?

Coercive Control And Jennifer’s Law

Lisa 7:01

Yeah, so um during my my divorce took a year and cost I thought it was gonna cost $10,000, and that kept me in the marriage because I thought I don't have $10,000. It cost 10 times that amount. And I always say I'm paying back those loans forever. But it also took that a full year, and at the end of that year, my wonderful, I'm not being sarcastic, I did have a wonderful divorce attorney. He said, Your ex is not gonna comply with this agreement, and you're gonna be back in court, and you can't use me because your ex is gonna continue to financially decimate you. So you're gonna have to start representing yourself. And three out of four people do represent themselves, and especially in our community, because they have to. There's just no more money left. And so my lawyer was wonderful, and he started um giving me some ideas on how to start establishing a paper trail before I went back to file, and then it was about a year and nine months before I went back on my own. And um, our courthouse, and many courthouses have something called like a volunteer attorney program where they have lawyers who will talk to you for between 20 to 40 minutes about your case. They won't represent you, but they can give basic legal advice. So when I went back before I filed, a lawyer looked at my papers and was like, you know what, you have a fraud case. This isn't just about a college thing, which is what I had planned to go back for. And so I ended up opening up two things called modifications on top of a college, it's what's called an educational support order. And then that became round two that lasted all of those years. And um, it was really hard, but I'm sure I saved well over a million dollars by representing myself. So um it ended up working out, but it was it was very painful to go through.

Tamara 8:45

Yeah, and then uh you said there's also a law that's that you helped create in Connecticut.

The Worst Cases And Custody Wars

Lisa 8:51

Yeah, so there's two things. So um I did give live testimony for something called Jennifer's Law, and in Connecticut, we became the third state next to Hawaii and California to pass what's called coercive control laws. So we expanded our legal definition of domestic violence to include all of those invisible abuses that people didn't used to take as seriously, such as verbal, psychological abuse, uh, sexual abuse, legal abuse, stalking um, stalking, isolation, uh cyberbullying, cyber stalking, I should say, revenge porn. So all of those things now have to be looked at when it comes to restraining orders in custody. In the past, it used to be imminent threat of physical harm or physical harm. So it really gives it a much broader picture and um it's it's really helpful. And I think Maine just maybe last month became, I think, the 10th or 11th state to pass coercive control laws. So that's one thing. But then my own case with my situation became case law. Um my ex appealed four times, and I argued for myself at the appellate, which is considered the higher court level. And um I won, and then the case was so notable that it got published in the Connecticut Law Journal, and so that became a law that other people can use to model their own cases on when they're quoting case law. So I'm super proud of that because everyone's told me they've never heard of a pro se or self-represented litigant um get published.

Tamara 10:24

That's awesome. Yeah, and I assume that law also will help other people, like you just said, and then as well as the there's now 10 or 11 states. So are you I assume the rest of the states are gonna follow suit, or that's the I think I hope so.

Lisa 10:38

I I say it feels like a like a slow wave that's happening.

Tamara 10:41

Yeah. Is that part of what you do at all advocate for that? Or are you just it just seems like common sense to other states kind of thing?

Lisa 10:48

Um, well, so you have to be in an individual state to really advocate for that state's laws, but also with been there got out, like we don't do advocacy as much. We do more like down in the trenches with our clients, helping them with each individual case.

Tamara 11:03

Okay. And what are some of the like typical cases or or how bad is it has it? Have you seen it? Because you said you deal with the worst.

Protecting Kids And Building Bonds

Lisa 11:11

So Yeah, we deal with the worst. So I mean, our ours are the cases that go on for years and years that cost hundreds of thousands, sometimes millions of dollars, sometimes not that much, but it's just this basically like a terror campaign. And so we work with our clients on teaching them the marathon mindset, not that it's just gonna take a long time and there's nothing you can do to finish quickly, but the training that's involved because you can't put your life on hold while this is still happening. So, really, what we see more than anything are awful custody battles where kids are really stuck in the middle and um, you know, an abusive parent is fighting for more time or more can everyone's, you know, it's always a situation where someone's fighting for more power and control because they've lost it with the end of the relationship. And so, really, the the the worst is with the kids trying to be turned against one of the parents. Often it's like the victim of domestic violence because we talked about that splitting thing, and people who see the world in black and white think what's, you know, you're either with me or against me, and that applies to their children as well. So children feel something called loyalty conflicts, where with that that one parent creates a scenario where they feel like um, you know, you can only love me or the other parent. And so if you don't love me, then I'm gonna reject or discard you. And kids generally love both their parents, and so they're put in a position where they they can't show affection or love because they'll be punished on some level, even if the other parent says nothing, just the body language or the silent treatments. It's basically the same kind of behavior that they treated their their ex in the relationship. They do things like that to the kids, where it's like, if you don't do what I want, I'm not gonna pay for this for you, or you know, all kinds of threats. Um, we had a client just the other day because we have a weekly legal abuse support group, and she was talking about how her 19-year-old daughter, who was turned against her for five years, has come back, but her daughter is going to college, and her father got really angry at her because she wasn't where she said she was with a friend and he had tracked her, even though this is a kid who's in college and has a certain amount of independence. Um, and then he said that he he wasn't gonna allow her to go back to college, and then he was supposed to drive her. So in the meantime, she's on the phone with her mom, like terrified and talking about if I don't do what he wants and he's not gonna do this, and why doesn't he just love me? And you know, that so we see like kids getting in those same unhealthy relationship dynamics with the abusive parents. So it's not just as a partner, they they do similar things to the kids, and it's awful.

Tamara 13:53

Yeah, and I was gonna say one of the questions can is there a way to protect your children from that, or just I guess before it even starts, maybe let them know that that could be something that happens, or what's the best way you see you've seen counter it.

Lisa 14:08

It's it's it's one of those long-term things that you have to kind of be aware of before, and even if you're not aware, it really comes down to establishing really strong bonds with your kids, whether you know you're gonna get divorced or not, but to make memories with them that they know you for who you are, and the the messages, we call them the poisonous messages that come from the other side don't take root in their heads. So there was a psychologist named Dr. Alina Boye that I interviewed for our podcast, and she told me that kids of all ages want two things more than anything control and attention. And so when you have an opportunity to spend time with your kids, if you can just take 10 minutes and do something that they want to do, even if you think it's stupid, even if it's a video game, but you want to say, like, I want you to teach me how to do this. So, you know, show me how this game works. I don't understand it. You're so good at it, I'm really interested, or like you're so good at baking. Can you show me how you make those amazing chocolate chip brownies? But whatever it is, it's something that your child leads with and that they see that you are completely focused on them and it's not about you, you're not distracted with other things because that's something that an unhealthy uh other parent is not capable of because everything's always about them. So if you can, whether alienation has occurred yet or not, if you can just keep focusing on making memories with your children, having rituals with them where they get to make decisions on even if it's like what we're gonna do for dinner, or having like one of our clients has like a hot chocolate night once a week when she gets her daughters back and they get everything ready and they have like the marshmallows and the whipped cream and sprinkles and stuff. So it's something that kids have to look forward to because everybody needs to have a routine. So there's a lot of a lot of things that you can do, but the main thing is your kids need to know who you are so that when the other person is telling them how bad you are, they have their own memories to be like, I know that's not true.

Resources, Courses, And How To Get Help

Tamara 16:14

Wow. Anything else about that? Or do you want to talk about if they can want to reach work with you or find out more about your organization?

Lisa 16:22

Yeah, so in terms of that, I mean, this is such a huge topic, but we actually have a book coming out um in early 2026. It's called uh, well, been there got out, when your ex turns the kids against you. And it's all about ways that you can protect your relationship with your child, both in the legal system and outside of the legal system. And a lot of it is outside of the legal system because when you're in the legal system, there's very limited things you can ask the court to do if this is going on, but there's so much you can do outside of the legal system, like I just talked about in terms of strengthening your relationship with your kids.

Tamara 17:00

Yeah. And then as you're, I assume they just find you online the get out, been out, get out. What is it? Say it again.

Lisa 17:08

Yeah, so um super easy to find. So our website is bin there got out.com. We're all over social media. Instagram's my home base. Just look up been there got out with little lines between the words. We have a podcast, we have a YouTube channel, we have um a series of courses. We released one and we have the alienation course coming out and one on parenting plans as well called From Fear to Fierce in Family Court. Um, and our original book um came out in 2023, and it's called Been There Got Out, Toxic Relationships, High Conflict, Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances. So we put out tons of free content. And if people feel like they're this is happening to them, then go to our website and we do like a free discovery Zoom meeting with people to find out if and how we can help.

Tamara 17:59

Okay. Yeah, that's awesome. Alex said, I definitely know several people in this situation. So or had had been, yeah, like dragging out stuff. And yeah, so and then um are there any final thoughts or anything you else you want to just leave the listeners with?

Lisa 18:14

Yeah, so I think that um being in these extreme cases is absolutely terrifying. And I know that the main emotions that I myself felt were a sense of rage over that the fact that this is happening. Like how how can the system be allowing this to happen? A feeling of injustice because it's not fair at all after everything that you've been through to now be dealing with this and not being able to really get away from your ex, and a sense of despair that it's never gonna end, that if they're getting away with it now, it's never gonna stop. But I I'm here to tell you after 10 years in the legal system with my own case and dealing with it, that life is so much better on the other side, even in the midst of it, if you have the right support and you need support. And many people going through this, like I said, are very successful in other areas. And so they often are the type who don't ask for help. Now is the time to ask for help because the better you are, the better your kids are gonna be. If your kids see that you have it together and they don't have to be emotionally responsible for you, meaning responsible for your emotional health, like your family is going to be better for it. So it's going to end. It hasn't ended yet, and you can still create a life in the midst of it, and you really deserve to have a good life, and so do your kids. So definitely reach out if if you feel like you're struggling with something like this.

Tamara 19:41

Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you very much. That's great information. And if you love this episode, be sure to tell your friends about it and rate it as well. So thank you again, Lisa, for being on.

Lisa 19:52

Thank you.

Tamara 19:52

All right, thanks everyone.

Outro 19:54

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