Rethink Monogamy, Pleasure, And The Stories We Carry #124

We explore single-parent dating, the realities of being a sex therapist on the apps, and what it really takes to talk about sex without shame. Keri Green shares tools for mismatched desire, sexual timelines, and opening tough conversations with care and consent.

• single mom dating constraints and filters
• clarifying what sex therapy is and is not
• handling disrespect and myths on dating apps
• mismatched desire and starting where comfort is
• using a sexual timeline for insight and healing
• orgasm intensity, letting go and aftershocks
• squirting basics and reducing stigma
• conversation tools and yes/no/maybe lists
• ethical non-monogamy foundations and boundaries
• recommended books and resources
• how to connect with KeriGreen

If you love this episode, be sure to tell your friends about it and follow it as well, read it as well, too

Transcript

Meet Carrie Green, Sex Therapist

Intro 0:00

Welcome to the Straight from the Source's Mouth Podcast, Frank talk about sex and dating.

Tamara 0:05

Hello, Tamara here. Welcome to the show. Today's guest is Keri Green, a licensed marriage and family therapist and asect certified sex therapist. Thanks for joining me, Keri

Keri 0:16

Thank you. Good to be here.

Tamara 0:18

Yes, I always like a topic on sex and dating. So since we can cover both with you, I figure let's start with the dating side. I know you're a single mom and dating. Are you newly single mom and dating? Or well, the single mom part is probably forever, but you know what I'm saying. Like newly divorced, newly dating, or just doing been doing it for a while.

Keri 0:41

So I have been single on and off and dating almost nine years. Um my children were young when I ended my marriage. I did not date right away. I just wanted to kind of wrap my head around being a single mom of two young children. And then once I gave myself the opportunity to date, I really, you know, was open-minded and had a lot of fun with it. I was at the time 38 years old, single, and really, to be honest, dating for the first time. I had only had two real relationships before that a college relationship and and my now ex-husband. So at 38 years old, um, it was very eye-opening and exciting to be dating.

Tamara 1:26

So yeah, was there anything you learned about yourself through dating? I know it's like what you did and didn't want and that kind of stuff, or yeah, absolutely.

Keri 1:35

I mean, I think I really learned a lot about how dating is very different as a single mother, as a single parent. Um obviously back in my 20s when I dated just a little bit, it was kind of fly by the seat of your pants. You want to meet for a happy hour and 20 minutes? Sure, I can be there. Now I've had some experiences over the years in dating where I haven't even been able to meet someone because our schedules don't align. The times we have our children are the same, and or I'm sorry, the opposite. And um a lot of us are busy between our professions and our kids and all of our other activities. So um I want to say, in some ways, I don't want to say being a single parent limits you. You've just got to be a little bit more, you know, creative and understanding, I guess, um, with people's schedules.

Dating As A Sex Therapist

Tamara 2:22

Yeah, for that reason, do you tend to date people with kids as well?

Keri 2:26

I do more so now. I think back when I was originally single years ago, I just wanted to go out, meet people. Didn't, you know, wasn't as much of a priority to me, how close or far they lived, if they had kids, what their ages were. I really have always just been a people person, part of being a therapist. And I more so just really wanted to meet people and get to know other people. Um now I'm taking dating a little bit more seriously. I've been in a few serious relationships over the years. And yes, typically I am dating men that are single dads. Um, some have been with children in similar age, others not. I also, though, would not rule out dating someone if they didn't have children as long as they were understanding of me, obviously having children.

Tamara 3:15

Yeah, and how does approaching sex while being a sex therapist while dating? Like, is that so you know all this stuff? Is it like easier, harder, especially when they know that you are one?

Keri 3:26

So it's it's funny. So back in, gosh, I don't even know, 2018, when I was first single and going onto the apps, I was not a sex therapist at the time. I've always been a licensed marriage and family therapist, but it's only in the last three to five years that I focused on sex therapy, gone and received that certification from Asect. So I always say round one of dating as a single person, I put on my profiles clinical therapist, and no one thought much about it. I really debated going back again after a long relationship I was in. And at that time, now being a sex therapist, if I wanted to put that specifically on my profile, because I wasn't sure how men would respond to it. And it's been so interesting. Um, I would say, gosh, I'm throwing this number out there, but I would say 25% of men don't believe me. They don't believe that a sex therapist is a real thing, or they go right to that and sometimes aren't the most respectful in things that they say off the bat. I've also learned that's helped me pick and choose who I want to continue conversations with and who I don't. Um, and for even people listening, a sex therapist is someone who's doing talk therapy, just like any other type of therapist. So I am not watching people have sex and giving feedback, which some people think I do. I am not having sex with my clients, which some people think is what a sex therapist does. I am a clinical talk therapist, no different than I have been for 20 years. It's just what men and women and couples come to speak to me about as a sex therapist, is specifically under the umbrella of sex therapy. So that's desire, mismatch desire, um, kinks, different types of relationships, gender, trauma, ethical non-monogamy, um lots of different things that people, you know, would go and see a sex therapist for.

Tamara 5:21

Yeah. Yeah, I've known that. But obviously I've been interviewing people like you. So I know all that. But yeah, that's that's crazy that some people don't even think it exists. Yeah. And I've definitely been there on the apps where they try to get sexual, you know, early on or see if like just see what you'll do about it or say. And they I guess they get away with it enough that sometimes it works for them.

Keri 5:44

Yeah, exactly. And I'm all about people being honest and going for it, whatever it is, yet it just doesn't land well with certain people. And I am definitely someone both in my personal life and in my professional life who values sex, who values the importance of talking about sex, enjoying our own pleasure, yet at the same time, when I'm talking to someone that I'm dating, it can sometimes be intimidating to the person because I don't know if they think I am an expert in all ways. I don't know if they think I've done everything under the sun and I'm gonna be too much for them. Um, but like I said, it's been an interesting journey dating as a sex therapist, yet I've met some incredible people over the years as well. So I'm grateful for that.

What Sex Therapy Really Is

Tamara 6:30

Yeah, that's awesome. And do you want to start talking about like um what you you did mention libido stuff. Wanted to go there, or just where what's the most common thing people come to you for?

Keri 6:41

Yeah, so that is typically the most common thing that a client would call, a couple would call and seek sex therapy for, what we would call mismatch desire. So one person in the relationship has a higher or lower libido level of interest in sex when they are having sex, maybe what they're willing or not willing, you know, to try to talk about. And so it's really, I'm no different as a sex therapist as I have been as a general marriage and family therapist for 20 years. I really am going to start with where that client is at and what they're comfortable with, especially if it's in a couple coming to me. I'm going to start where the less comfortable person is. Because if the whole goal is trying to more so match their desires to each other, and I always say there's a big difference if they're pretty close in their interests versus on total opposite, you know, pages, not even in the same chapter, so to speak, we have a little bit more. I never like to say the word work because that has a negative connotation. We have more conversations to be had. Um, because let's be honest, if there is enough of a discrepancy and one is not wanting to do a certain thing, try a certain thing, talk about a certain thing, that could be enough in a relationship for it not to work. It's also something where if a couple can learn ways or an individual can learn ways to be more comfortable talking about their bodies and pleasure and desire, boy, can that open up so many other avenues of connection and closeness in that relationship if the intimate, vulnerable conversations around sex and pleasure can be can be better talked about.

Tamara 8:22

Yeah. And what is a sexual timeline? And I know that's something you talk about and I've not heard it, I don't think.

Mismatched Desire And Communication

Keri 8:31

Yeah. So one, I like to give homework as a therapist. I always say to my clients, you're not going to get graded on it. You're not going to not be able to be my client if you don't do your homework. But I definitely want clients to think about things outside of the sessions. Our sessions, depending on whether it's insurance or not, are no more than 45 to 60 minutes. And just like a lot of things, we don't just, you know, work on our bodies when we're in the gym. We also are hopefully taking care of our bodies outside of the time that we're at the gym exercising. So I say to clients and couples all the time, I love you being involved in the conversation in the session. I also want you to go home and think about this thing, have this conversation, maybe even try out this thing. So the idea behind a sexual timeline is thinking back to your earliest experience, however you want to define that, whether that was something that was personally, personally affected you that you were involved in, or it was discovering porn at a young age, um, watching a movie and seeing two people kiss, having your own sexual experience, you know, with someone or by yourself. So there's no rules around what should or shouldn't be on your timeline, but really an idea in a sense of how was sex introduced to me? What were my feelings around sex even at a young age? How is it talked about? What was going on in the media that I was exposed to? And then once the person began their own sexual journey, whatever age that was at, maybe that was a trauma. Maybe that was the most loving experience they've ever had in their sexual life. Everyone's different. And where have they gone, you know, since then? And whether that person coming to see me is in their 20s or their 60s, where's their sexual timeline at now in the current day? And where do they want it to go? A lot of people feel because I haven't experienced blank, I'm never going to. I'm 40 years old, I'm 50 years old. There's plenty of time to still discover things, change things, stop doing things that you don't want to do anymore, regardless of what age you're at. But I always like the visual ability of a timeline to look at and kind of see where how far I've come and where I'm going.

Tamara 10:50

Do you have them kind of compare notes or is it just more for their own individual, like what they discovered about themselves?

Keri 10:57

Yeah. I mean, if it's an individual client, of course, we are just having that conversation. Some have written it out and show it to me, some share different key points in their lives. If it's a couple that are both willing to do it, then yes, of course, I would love for them to share those same experiences. What was the most, you know, life-changing sexual experience you've had so far? And with your partner, what has been the best, you know, sexual experience you've had so far? What have you maybe not healed from that you didn't even remember took place or didn't think it was as impactful as it was until you wrote it down? Um, so I always give lots of different options to clients, and of course, what they're most comfortable with, whether that's in the session or on their own to discuss. To me, that's more important than it being with me in the session. It's that they're willing and wanting to kind of peel the onion back, so to speak, and and learn a little bit more.

Tamara 11:53

Okay. And thinking of my own timeline, like one particular incident I was gonna ask. I I had the um, I was my first boyfriend, I was 18. I had the kind of orgasm where like it it's like rushes liquid throughout your body. I don't know what I don't even know how to describe it, but yeah, it was like very good. Yeah, it's kind of like Eddie Murphy way back in the day, where a woman, like once they have that kind of orgasm, like they're like obsessed almost, or I don't know, I've never been able to have it since. And interesting. I just don't know if it's like if there's something there. Like I'm curious your thoughts, if there's if you can, if not.

Sexual Timelines And Healing

Keri 12:29

Well, there's certainly more I would want to know. So whether we go into it right now or we talk offline, you know, what were the circumstances of that orgasm? Was that a first orgasm? Was that after years of experiencing it? How did that orgasm take place? What type of orgasm was it, you know, clitoral or other other types of orgasms? And I tend to talk about orgasms that they're all different. Women experience them differently. I'm guessing men do too. I wouldn't know. Um, and also kind of that feeling in your body afterwards. And then what I kind of call aftershocks. Like your body is so incredibly sensitive, depending on the type of orgasm. Sometimes your body just calms down and it goes away. Other times your body, gosh, it could be from your head to your toes, is still so incredibly tingly and sensitive that there's little, again, like I say, aftershocks that maybe wouldn't be considered full orgasms, but your body's still recovering in a sense of what amazing, you know, change just took place. Um so yeah, I mean, I'd I'd certainly want to know more about that because it sounds like an experience you would like to relive over and over again if you could.

Tamara 13:43

Yeah, I mean, I I can remember it like it was yesterday and it was not. And um, it was just it was through oral sex. And oh wow. I would stop him, like pushed his head, and then he finally like just tied my hand so I couldn't stop him.

Keri 13:57

Oh, okay. Well, that might be a part of it.

Tamara 14:00

I can never like get past that spot where I feel like it's gonna come. It just it's like so I just have to push them away. Like, I don't know if from ever since then, because they're they're not tying my hands, I guess, or similar, not this similar, but yeah, it was more about the it gets to a point, I don't know, for every woman where it like just it's so I don't know, I have to like push it away.

Keri 14:20

It's almost too much. Yeah. Well, it's almost too much and too intense that an actual reaction is to kind of push away from it. Um, not to say necessarily this would have been your experience, but I know that is why a lot of women, this isn't necessarily the topic we're going into today, maybe for another show, but this is why a lot of women do not squirt or feel that they can't, because it is that sense of if I even go one more, you know, step, it's gonna, I'm gonna explode, literally and figuratively. And they don't want to do that. So a huge part of sex to me, regardless of who's having sex with whom and what you're doing, if you can, is being so free and so relaxed and so willing to just let bodies take over, whatever comes of it is hopefully first and foremost, of course, consensual and comfortable. And on top of that, hopefully pleasurable because that is what we want sex to be if it's able to get there, which it's not every time. And that's okay too.

Tamara 15:21

Yeah. And yeah, and it was like internal, like I don't know, it was like just like a rush of I don't know, liquid is what how I always describe it, but internal. Like it was just like a went over my whole body. So I I've asked other people, and no one else seems to have felt something quite like this, or at least the people I asked, I'm sure there's people out there.

Keri 15:40

Well, that sounds pretty intense, and also not a lot of women are able to achieve an orgasm through um oral sex. They need, you know, a lot more direct stimulation. So that's wonderful.

Tamara 15:55

Yeah, yeah.

Keri 15:55

Hopefully that can happen again for you and again and again and again.

Tamara 15:59

Yeah. I've I've used to tell people like, oh, I had this thing, but I haven't had it since, so of course they try. So I've stopped like gathering to tell people, yes, I don't want to challenge them anymore. But anyway, so back to well, then you mentioned squirting. Like, I know I had an episode on it before. Okay. And some people think just since you brought it up, you know, some there was a man who told me that he thought the woman had peed on him, and he literally like freaked out and like left the house. And I was like, Oh my god, like that was not what that was. Like, you should go apologize. Like, he after you know, after I talked to him, he felt kind of bad and he was gonna go say something, but he literally was like convinced she peed on him.

Keri 16:38

So if you want to just say a little bit about squirting, yeah, and I understand why people would think that. There's women who even think that. Women have what would be called like a like female ejaculate, just like men do. Yet it doesn't happen sometimes ever when we have an orgasm. It's not a guarantee to be associated with an orgasm. So when women do squirt, when their G spot is obviously attached in a certain way, and that is able to happen, it can absolutely feel like and look like you are urinating because it is a liquid coming out of your body. There may be a very small percentage of it that legitimately is urine because it's almost impossible for it not to be with everything, bladder, urethra, everything all so close together in the female anatomy, but it is not peeing. I do recommend to women, um, regardless if they plan to squirt, want to squirt in a sexual experience or not, to go to the bathroom both before and after sex just to decrease the chances of having a full bladder. And then afterwards, we know also to use the restroom is is good for hygiene and you know, uh bladder infections, UTIs, all those kinds of things. But I think squirting is something that a lot of people have a stigma around simply because of lack of education.

Tamara 18:17

Yeah, yeah, we're definitely, yeah, I had a whole episode on it, so we don't have to talk more, but I was just wanted to, at least since we mentioned it in case people didn't hear that one. So yeah, like what are some what else about sex therapy? Is there to say?

Intensity, Orgasms, And Letting Go

Keri 18:31

Yeah, well, again, I mean, I the reason I chose in my profession from being a licensed marriage and family therapist to go directly into sex therapy for the rest of my career is because I want people to feel more comfortable talking about sex. It is and is going to continue to be an incredibly um vulnerable conversation, a lot of shame based around it for a lot of people, regardless of what religion they grew up in, regardless of how it was taught or not taught in their communities. It is very difficult and uncomfortable for a lot of people to talk about it. And so if I can be someone that they can talk to with their most, you know, descriptive sexual fantasy or whatever's gone on in their life that they want to try and better understand or not feel different because they've thought about something or they want to try something, I would love to have clients feel comfortable speaking to me and then through that, hopefully be able to speak to their partners or as they come to see me as couples, be able to again slowly open up that dialogue. And there are so many ways to have conversations around sex. Um it's just unfortunate that most people are not.

Tamara 19:41

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's funny because I'm sure people search for that kind of thing like online and everyone wants to hear about it and see it. But then when it comes to individually talking about it, especially like with a partner, a lot of times, like you said. It's definitely um, so what is the best way to start a conversation if you want to try something new with your partner? Like what's the approach you would suggest?

Keri 20:06

I really love couples to begin any conversation about sex or otherwise with some kind of common ground, something that they share together. So whether that is filling out a yes, no maybe list together that are offered, you know, one would be the yes no maybe list that Dr. Emily Morse provides, sexwithemily.com, um, lots of other resources, you can find that also. But starting with, oh, we both like this. We both agree that, you know, what we did last week was fun. We both agree that we're comfortable with this thing. Starting with something that you're both comfortable talking about and then slowly going from there. And just being honest. If it is too overwhelming to talk about it, if it's too embarrassing, if it's something that you don't want to talk about in that moment, that you can hopefully be honest with your partner about that because I guess depending on how long you've been with the person, but I've worked with couples who've been married for decades and they're just for the first time really starting to have conversations with each other about sex and pleasure. You can hopefully trust that the person's not gonna laugh at you, they're not gonna point at you, they're not gonna get up and walk out of the room because you bring something up. The person you're having these conversations with has hopefully proven to you that you can trust them, that they're going to, you know, want to, they may not understand, they may not feel the same, but they hopefully are going to want to better understand where you're coming from, ask questions and get to know, you know, what your kink is better or how come this experience was not as enjoyable to you as it was to them. But it always starts, like I said, with comfort, common ground, and hopefully being able to feel, you know, honest and vulnerable in doing so.

Tamara 21:46

Okay. And you mentioned earlier ethical non-mon, I can never say that, ethical non-monogamy. Correct. Yes. And are there are you seeing more and more couples getting into that kind of thing or are they doing the opposite nowadays?

Keri 21:58

Or I would say, at least in my field of seeing it, um, more are intrigued and interested in it. It will never never say never, but I don't think it'll ever be the mainstream way to date or be in a relationship. I think a lot of couples are open to being open. So when people hear of ethical ethical non-monogamy, some people think that that means they're swingers, that means that they're poly, that means that, you know, one has already been cheating and now they just want a past to be able to do it ongoing and their partner knows about it, so it's not bad anymore. There are so many different forms of ethical non-monogamy. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Um, a couple could be completely monogamous to each other and choose to go to a play party and watch others engage in things and, you know, still go home to each other that night. And so I like to look at the idea of being open and ethically non-monogamous as anything that that couple is in agreement to. And I've never seen two couples or multiple people in a relationship have it be the exact same as someone else. That is 100% catered to that couple. And the most important thing, like anything else, again, is honesty and comfort in doing so, and knowing that it is not something to bring into a relationship if that relationship is not already incredibly stable with very good communication, really good boundaries, a healthy sex life, however, that's being described. Um, because there are a lot of ways that trust can be broken, boundaries can be crossed if it's not done, you know, correctly, so to speak.

Tamara 23:46

Yeah. Yeah. I've had an episode about that as well. A coach who helps people get into that.

Squirting Facts And Myths

Keri 23:52

Yeah. So many resources out there, too, between books and podcasts and worksheets. And I always say, again, I want people to be in relationships where they're comfortable bringing up their questions, bringing up their curiosities. But it this could also be a topic if one partner in the relationship over dinner on a random Thursday night brings up, hey, have you ever thought about opening our marriage? What would that even look like? Even somewhat of an innocent question asking out of curiosity, that could incredibly upset the other partner. And now you've opened up, you know, you've opened up this, you know, Pandora's boxes, they say, and you can't go back. So a lot of the couples I work with is even again just forming that foundation and building that trust to be able to have certain conversations and not react necessarily in a way of, oh my gosh, well, if I don't say yes, they're gonna leave me and I don't want to do this, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Because that, of course, is not ever a reason to, you know, do anything, let alone sexually. Um, but yeah, I think there's definitely more talk of consensual non-monogamy, ethical non-monogamy these days than there ever has been.

Tamara 25:03

Okay. And do you want to share how people can work with you or where to find you online?

Keri 25:09

Yeah, absolutely. Um, best way would be just through my website, carrygreen lmft.com. Um that will have my, you know, information of how to get in touch with me. That'll have links to my social media, um, all about my practice and what I do as a sex therapist. So K-E-R-I, green, like the color, L M F T.com.

Tamara 25:32

All right, thank you. And do you I have books? I know you mentioned it a couple of times. So, what are your some of your go-to books that you recommend people?

Keri 25:40

Yeah, I actually was just on a podcast last week where I brought my three favorite books to the podcast and explained them. Um my two, I have two favorite Dr. Emilies that are sex therapists. The first is Dr. Emily Morse, as I mentioned earlier with her yes, no, maybe list. She's written an amazing book. Um I'm actually gonna grab them as we're talking, or maybe I won't if I can't get to them in time. Um she wrote an incredible book called Smart Sex. I'm gonna show it just in case this is video. So, Dr. Emily Morse, um, how to boost your sex IQ and own your pleasure. The other Dr. Emily, which is one of my favorites, is Dr. Emily Nagoski. She wrote a book called Come As You Are, which talks a lot about different types of desire. Um, can't reach that one. And then the other sex therapist that I really enjoy is Vanessa Marin. And she wrote a book called Sex Talks. And it's the five different types of conversations to have with your partner to be able to feel comfortable talking about sex and making it something, again, that isn't shameful, that isn't um one-sided, where both people can feel heard and be able to be vulnerable in those conversations.

Tamara 26:58

Okay. And then do you have any takeaways or final thoughts you want to leave?

Keri 27:03

I would just love every person, regardless of gender, sexuality, sexual history, sexual timeline, if they want to explore themselves sexually and be able to better understand themselves to have a more enjoyable sex life, again, whatever that looks like, to allow themselves the opportunity to do so, because we all deserve that.

Tamara 27:26

Yes, I agree. All right. Well, thank you very much. And if you love this episode, be sure to tell your friends about it and follow it as well, read it as well, too. All right. Thank you again, Keri.

Tamara 27:39

Thank you. All right, thanks everyone. Bye.

Outro 27:42

Frank Talk! FrankTalk ! Sex and Dating, Educate