How Couples Can Stop Mother-In-Law Conflict Before It Starts #135

We talk with couples therapist Dr. Tracy Dagleish about why mother-in-law conflict escalates and how couples can stay connected while setting clear boundaries. We break down the patterns that pull partners apart, then share tools and scripts that keep the marriage first without cutting family off. 
• why couples crave a healthy extended family relationship yet struggle to act as a team 
• the Vault Method and why values come before boundary talk 
• the 35,000-foot view vs ground-level agreements in daily family life 
• how triangulation works and how to step out of the triangle 
• the deeper need under the fight such as autonomy or control 
• six mother-in-law behavior types and what tends to work with each 
• why denial and dismissing feelings fuels resentment 
• how gender socialization leaves many men unprepared to set family boundaries 
• planning for predictable family moments and pairing limits with reassurance 
• validating upset feelings without turning it into right vs wrong 
If you love this episode, be sure to tell your friends about it and rate it as well.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Intro 0:00

Welcome to the Straight From the Source's Mouth Podcast. Frank talk about sex and dating.

Tamara 0:05

Hello, Tamara here. Welcome to the show. Today's guest is Dr. Tracy Dalgish, Culpus Therapist and author of You, Your Husband, and His Mother. Thanks for joining me, Tracy. Thank you so much, Tamara, for having me here. Yes, when I saw the title of your book, it sounded very intriguing and I can see why people would need this information. So, how how did you come to know this information or how do you get started in your line of work wherever you want to start?

Why In-Law Tension Starts Early

Dr Tracy 0:32

Yes, absolutely. And you know, this really what motivated me to write this book as a psychologist and couples therapist is really almost 20 years of working with people, either through research, doing my PhD, or through the clinical work that I've done. And every couple comes into my office wanting to feel like they're on the same page, wanting to feel like a team and learn how to communicate and feel more connected. And one of the common desires that people want really is around having a healthy, extended family relationship. And yet, so many people struggle with this or they don't know how to get on the same team around it. And so this book really came out of my years of work with people wishing to have a resource specific for the mother-in-law and daughter-in-law dynamics. So this book is written for women. Hopefully, your partner is on board to do it with you. If not, that's okay. And I take people through my five-step bulk method so that you can learn to prioritize what's important to you, feel like a team, and to actually set those boundaries so that it's not just one moment, it's the lifetime of having positive family relationships.

Tamara 1:41

Yeah. Because once you get off started on the wrong foot, it's hard to heal potentially. So like I could see you doing this right in the beginning would be extra helpful. But it was yeah, good.

Dr Tracy 1:53

Yeah, and that that's the important piece is that oftentimes we don't know what we don't know. And in the second step, I go through all of these questions. And I remember when I was checking out the book with some of my key readers early on with the work that I've been doing. I had one of my uh readers say, Can I keep this list now so that I can take this to my husband and ask these questions? Because of course, you know, we don't ever sign up for relationship courses. We high school students don't get taught how to communicate, how to talk about boundaries. And so then you bring together two different people from two completely different family systems, and that's where we start to experience tension, whether it's around wedding planning, whether it's around a new baby joining the family, or even just navigating the day in and out of life. And that's tricky.

Tamara 2:40

Yeah, I've seen a few videos where the like I don't know. One in particular, the woman just they just announced that she was having a baby, you know, the balloons or something, I forget. And the mother like ran over there before the the wife could kiss him or something. I don't know. It's just kind of I saw that one. Yeah, I think everyone saw it. Yes, it was.

Dr Tracy 2:58

Oh goodness. So that one was, and I actually think I created a little clip on that on Instagram because here's this moment for the couple. I think they were blue balloons that were up in the back. And mom comes over once, and what the son does is kind of just hang on, mom, I'll get to you after, and like keeps hugging his wife for them to have their moment. And then the mother comes back again and he does it again. And it's this experience. So, so here's Tamara. What tends to happen in this dynamic is that mothers have a really special role with their sons. And I talk about this in the book because I I think it is important for us to acknowledge that we don't want to abandon our families. We want to find ways to bring them into our life in ways that work. But for that mother-in-law, daughter-in-law dynamic, what tends to happen is that mothers, some of them, start to feel insignificant. They question their role, they see their daughter-in-law and son doing something different, as we're parenting different today using conscious parenting, as couples are choosing maybe to elope or to not even get married at all, or how they're dividing the mental load and the emotional labor in the home. And so here's this mom who says, Oh, you're doing it differently. Does that mean that I did it wrong? And so it can easily stir up these insecurities. And that video, I think, is so important because what it shows, and this is what I teach people, and especially because many men need to hear this early on, is that it's you're not abandoning your family. You're actually choosing your partner and prioritizing the emotions in your marriage first, so then you can include your family in a way that works for you.

The Vault Method For Couples

Tamara 4:38

Yeah, I like that explanation. And not everyone does it, of course, but that I would say that's the ideal, in my opinion, too. Not that I have any legal or um you know official say on that, but yeah. So and you mentioned five steps to your book earlier. Do you want to talk about some of those?

Spotting The Relationship Triangle

Dr Tracy 4:56

Or yeah, absolutely. So when I wrote when I created this system, it's my vault method. So many times people come into my therapy room saying, We want to set boundaries. I want you to tell my husband how to go and set this boundary with his mother. Or the other thing, too, is a lot of people have been asking me, well, what if it's my mother? The system is going to work for you as well because this is really about how you get to be on the same team, how you identify what's important. So, in those early steps, I'm not teaching you how to set that boundary because guess what? People will get defensive when you're asked to go into step one of how to set a boundary. Instead, we're going to talk about what's really important to you. How did you find each other in terms of the values and what do you aspire for? So one is being at the 35,000-foot level and the other one is being in the ground. I think of this one couple I worked with, and their values were very much aligned when they first met each other. They appreciated family, they would spend meals together. But then every Sunday night after they had babies, that it was this question of you we have to go to my mom's house for an espresso or for an espresso and Piscotti. And now being a mom to two young children, she's saying, Well, being at your family's house every Sunday night at 7 p.m. doesn't work for me. And it was really this how do we get on the ground level in agreement to what's important to us? Not so that we're no longer showing up at your family's house, but so we can see what are both of our needs and how can we talk about this as a couple? And then my favorite part actually of the Vault method is helping couples to identify their triangle. And it's stated in the title of the book, what you know, there's you, there's your husband, and there's your mother, or his mother rather. And the key piece here is acknowledging that when there's tension between two people, what we do to alleviate that tension is to bring in the third. So if there's tension between mother-in-law and her son, she, or mother and son rather, she then sends a text to daughter-in-law and says, Hey, I haven't heard from my son. Can you tell him to text me? That's bringing in a third. Or sometimes mother-in-law, mothers-in-law will text daughters-in-law and go to them and not going to their son. And so there's lots of conflict that can show up in this triangle. And it's so important then because a lot of couples come to my therapy room saying, She's putting me in the middle. No, he's putting me in the middle. And actually, it's a triangle, nobody's in the middle. But when you as a couple can recognize what this dynamic is, you can then step out of it. And then, of course, this book would not be without going through boundaries. How do you actually set boundaries? How do you as a couple talk to each other about what your needs are? And the need isn't, I don't want to go to your mom's house on Sunday night for dinner anymore. The need might be about freedom and autonomy or power and control. There's often a deeper need inside of that that people are missing talking about. So I really help readers go through that in the book. And then finally, in the last step, you're going to learn how to take action. What does that look like at the next family event? What are you actually saying to your mother-in-law? Or what's your husband saying to your mother-in-law? But Tamara, my favorite part of the whole book is actually walking people through the sixth type of mothers-in-law so that the reader then can say, Oh, okay, I think this is my type of mother-in-law. And now I have scripts and strategies specific to that type of person.

Tamara 8:46

It's a complex dynamic. Yeah, for sure. Do you want to share some of the types of mother-in-laws?

Dr Tracy 8:51

Or yes, yes. And I I always caveat this conversation by saying, these are not a diagnosis. This is not us sitting on the hill and labeling people and then going to your husband and saying, or to your partner and saying, look, your mom is a narcissist. And actually, I don't use that word in the book intentionally because it can be a harmful word, and we would really need the diagnosis of a psychologist or an empty to do that. So we step away from that label. But when we look at these types, then we can use this grouping of behavior to know who is this person and what's going to work and what's not going to work in terms of communicating for them. So I outline them in the book in depth, but I'll go through them here. The first grouping is the internalizers. And the internalizers are when they make everything about themselves. So the first type of mother-in-law is the martyr. And the martyr gives, but there's always guilt attached. So she'll effortlessly give, but then she'll say something like, After all I've done for you. And she uses guilt trips. And this one's really tricky because for daughters-in-law, or even for their son, they feel pulled to then change their mind, give up their boundaries, and to then agree to do the thing. The second type is the victim mother-in-law type. And the victim feels like the world is happening to her. And that's a tricky position because then it can pull in other family members to solve her drama or her dilemma instead of her acknowledging she has her own sense of agency. The second group is the externalizers. And the externalizers use a lot of blame and criticism in their connection with others, very much looking outwards. And the third type then is the blamer type. And the blamer scapegoats the daughter-in-law. She says things like, We didn't have these problems before you showed up. And so daughters-in-law often end up feeling like they're the bad ones. They're put in that position of being an outsider. The fourth type is the controller mother-in-law. And again, as people are listening, they might think, well, there are some times when my mother-in-law kind of does this, but also this. And I would completely expect people to find that when you read through the different types. So that fourth type is the controller. And she'll say something like, This is just how we do it in the family. And she's more rigid and she expects things to be done her way. She might be someone that says, We always have Thanksgiving dinner on this day. So you have to come on this day. There's no exception. And then we have the third group. And the third group are more of what I call the balancers. They can balance the ins and outs of relationships rather than just leaning towards one or the other. So the fifth type is the distancer. And the distancer, oftentimes, daughters-in-law describe this mother-in-law as she lives down the street 20 minutes, but I only see her twice a year. She's not involved in her kids' life. She doesn't want to meet the kids or hang out with them until they're a certain age, or only wants to be when they're babies. But the distancer just keeps distance. And oftentimes people will share that this has been a pattern in the relationship for a long time. But then their needs change as couples go through having children or wanting to have more of that village support around them. And then the sixth type is the supporter type. And the supporter type, this is where one of my clients said, I just hit the jackpot with my mother-in-law. Like we we know we have to communicate, we have to work on our communication, but she's kind and caring. And she reaches out to me to say, How can I support you right now?

Tamara 12:23

Yeah.

Dr Tracy 12:24

Which one is the most common, would you say, or or what you've seen in practice? Or such a good question. I I see a lot of martyrs. I see a lot of daughters-in-law describing this martyr experience. Um, very much this, I don't know how to communicate my needs. I say yes to everything, and then I'm exhausted and I make passive-aggressive comments. And then I also see a lot of families get stuck in this system of the blamer, mother-in-law. And this is where, you know, they keep the daughter-in-law as an outsider and they put all the problems on her rather than seeing that there was a system that was already in place in this family. And that's something that I walk readers through in chapter two of the book. So I really take it through 10 difficult dynamics. I call I call I call them toxic family dynamics that come up because they really are patterns linked to unhealthy family dynamics. And oftentimes what happens is a daughter-in-law enters into a family. And because she's not desensitized to it, she notices these patterns and she goes, Oh, that's interesting. That like that, we don't, you know, different from my family, or maybe we don't do that at all in my family. But then because she's the one to name it and call it out, it's often why she becomes the scapegoat or quote unquote the bad one.

Tamara 13:44

Yeah, for highlighting the actual issue they are all trying to keep hidden or didn't know.

Why Men Get Stuck In Middle

Dr Tracy 13:50

Yes. Yeah. And it's so it's interesting too because I know, and here's the thing, and I want listeners to really understand this about dealing with our in-laws. This is not about lighting the torch and taking down mothers-in-law. This book is really about recognizing that we all want to coexist in relationships. And most daughters-in-law do not enter a union with a partner and say, I don't want to be with your mother in our life. Most people want to expand their family and connection and be with others. And it's just really that tension, misunderstandings, and expectations from everybody that starts to show up. And it's almost like everybody's pouring gasoline onto a fire. And that's when people start to struggle.

Tamara 14:36

Yeah, I could see that for sure. So, what else do you teach, or is that, or is it kind of that dynamic that you just work through with each couple as you do you work in? I'm guessing just groups or not groups, I should say, just couples.

Dr Tracy 14:51

Yeah, so it's really interesting because my practice has been filled with individuals, couples. I see both men and women. Um, and many people come to me knowing that I work with in-law challenges. And so sometimes men will show up in my office. And this is usually around a particular theme that shows up. And I again I talk about this in the book where I talk about how we don't tend to see this amount of conflict between a son-in-law, a son-in-law, and a mother-in-law. So her mother. We don't tend to see as high of a conflict rate because oftentimes women are setting boundaries from much earlier ages. We think of society's kind of knock on the angry girl teenager or the seven-year-old girl who slams her door and yells at her mother, I hate you. And so we we encourage emotional expression with women. Um, I think of even the generational differences. I remember with grandparents, when my daughter was born, everybody was very connected to her emotions. They would say things like, Oh, you felt down, are you okay? Let me give you a hug. Versus my son was very much, hey, pull up your socks, brush it off, get back on the bike. And so we know even as generations are changing, that men have been taught to avoid emotions, to push them away, and to not set boundaries with family. And so then again, here's this kind of big bang moment where a man comes to my therapy room and most often they're around, they're somewhere in their mid-30s, they've had their first or second child, and they're struggling because now he's he's feeling like he's in the middle. Mom wants to see baby all the time, and his wife says, You have to set boundaries with your mother. And so I do tend to see that in my practice. And it's tricky because, you know, here's here's the thing. We don't want to be angry. Uh, no, I don't want to say that. I want to say we don't want to a lot of times when we get to that place of estrangement, it's not because one thing happened, it's because it's a death by a thousand paper cuts. It's losing connection and misunderstanding and people not being able to take accountability and responsibility in their relationships. And it leads into all kinds of challenges. Yeah, I could definitely see that.

Tamara 17:23

Yeah. Do you want to share if people want to work with you, or is it more um you'd just like to offer your book to others?

Dr Tracy 17:30

Yeah, absolutely. I love the opportunity to connect with people. So you can find me on drtracyd.com. That's my website. And I support people all over the world. So if you're looking for support, reach out to me and then we can see if we're a good fit. And then you can also see the details of my book there, which comes out on November 4th. And I have a lot of other free resources available for people. So if you find that when you're communicating with your partner and you get defensive, I've got a guide there with 10 sample scripts to help you. I know how much we love scripts when we get in those sticky relationship moments. Um, but that that's the other piece too, Tamara, is that people will really learn how to communicate, not just through the book, but through my work, what it actually means to communicate with our partner, how we heal these old wounds that are repeated through generations, and then we're coming together as this couple. So people can find me at my website and all the book details are there as well.

Tamara 18:25

Okay. And then what you just said about just the dynamics of the wounds and stuff, how what are some of the prevalent ones that you see like are the ones that people make the most mistakes doing?

Dr Tracy 18:36

Or yeah, you know, the first one that comes to mind is denial. And we do this in such insidious ways. So when I think about the in-law dynamic, even your wife comes to you and says, Hey, um, it didn't feel good earlier when your mom criticized how we're handling baby right now, or when your mom told me, like, are you feeding my son? Like, look at him, he's withering away. Stories that I have heard from people. And the challenging piece then is her husband then looks at her and says, She didn't mean that. It's not that bad. Don't be so sensitive. It's just my mom, she means well. And it's in this moment where one partner is denying the other person's experience. And that denial is often part of a family system. And so when we go back and look at his family and what his parents did with his feelings, they likely denied his experience as well. And that this is the challenging piece in unhealthy family dynamics, is it's almost like we are um attached at the arm. So our limbs are attached together. And whatever a parent is feeling, then they want their adult child to feel the same, or when they were children to feel the same. Instead of what a healthy family system looks like is when adult child says, Okay, mom, we can't be there for Thanksgiving dinner on this day. She says, Okay, you know, oh, I feel a little bummed about that. I also understand that you're navigating your family and other commitments. And why don't we find another day for that? And you're not responsible for my feelings. And that's how we break out of those unhealthy family wounds that show up.

Tamara 20:21

Yeah, it sounds so easy.

Boundaries With Reassurance And Compassion

Dr Tracy 20:23

And doesn't it? It totally does. And yet it's just, it's so much work, right? Uh the the leaves are changing here in Ottawa right now, and I often look to trees as metaphors for the work that we do. And when a tree changes colors, the leaves don't change all at once. There's a patch that's getting the sun the most that starts to change, the outer patches of the leaves and then the lower ones first. And it's just this reminder of what change looks like. Change with the narratives we talk to ourselves with, change with how we then communicate that to somebody else. And then also how we then show up in all of the other areas of our life. And it's tricky. And I think having compassion for ourselves for just how hard change is is one of the most important things we can do.

Tamara 21:08

Is there anything I didn't ask that you feel like I should have, or like more like there's more to your either the book or your work?

Dr Tracy 21:16

One of the common challenges that show up in my therapy room and with people who I know who are going to benefit from this book is really around boundaries. And a lot of people will say, I don't want to upset my mom, or I don't want to upset family. Boundaries are so uncomfortable. So the question almost becomes, how do we do this? And I I often recommend to couples spend time reflecting on what that boundary really is for you. Because it can sometimes feel like whack-a-mole, especially if you have a more controller mother-in-law type or a blamer mother-in-law type, the comments are coming out at you and it doesn't feel good. But make a plan together with you and your partner. And I often say family is consistent and predictable. So if there were comments about bodies at the last family event, there's probably gonna be comments about bodies or politics again at the next family event. So you and your partner can make a plan. And then when you communicate that plan, remember that boundaries are not about asking others to change. When you ask someone to do something different, that's a request. But instead, boundaries are about what we are or are not willing to do. And I often remind people that when you set a boundary, also offer reassurance to other people because that really helps them to know. And this is, Tamara, this is at our core. We just want to know that we are still important, that we matter to someone. And that's also what a mother to an adult child wants to know. And so when we say something like, you know, mom, we really want to have a holiday with you. We enjoy spending time with you. And we can't wait until we get to do that again. And unfortunately, this time we're not able to do that. So a lot of reassurance helps other people feel seen and heard. And it's that reminder for us to have a lot of compassion and softness towards them and not this kind of rigidity that we often show up with in relationships.

Tamara 23:13

Yeah, I could definitely see what'd be helpful. Because that's like you said, down underneath, that's probably what they're they're fearing something or worrying about something. So the reassurance goes a long way.

Final Takeaways And Closing

Dr Tracy 23:23

It goes such a long way. And then also to remembering that if they're upset about you not being able to attend the holiday event, and I've got all the scripts in my book for people who are looking for this. It's okay if they're upset. You can still validate their upset feelings without saying you're right and I'm wrong. Because that's not what that is about, right? It's not a right or wrong argument. It's about, of course you're upset. It makes sense that you're upset. Yeah, but I still can't make it. But I'm still not able to make it. And we can't wait till we get to spend that time together next time.

Tamara 23:56

Yeah. All right. Well, are there any um final thoughts or comments that you want to make sure the listeners get from this?

Dr Tracy 24:05

Yeah. I I mean recognizing first that we aren't taught how to do relationships and that when you feel connected and secure in your partnership and with other important people in your life, you are more resilient. If you have children, you can manage the stress better. If you are in an early partnership, you can feel more connected and manage the work stress that's coming your way or any other family member stresses. And so, really, at the heart of the work that I do with people is helping couples get on the same team and feel solid and secure. So focus on that. Learn the skills and tools that are going to help you to do that. And then you'll really be able to weather any storm that comes your way.

Tamara 24:44

Awesome. Well, your book sounds like it's much needed and it sounds like it hasn't necessarily been there. So good to find good to find or good to create one that you needed for yourself.

Dr Tracy 24:54

Yes, yes, absolutely. Thank you so much, Tamara, for having me.

Tamara 24:58

Yes, thank you. And if you love this episode, be sure to tell your friends about it and rate it as well. All right, thanks again, Dr. Tracy. Bye everyone. Thanks.

Outro 25:06

Frank Talk! Frank Talk! Sex and dating educate