The Four Intimacies Framework with Roy and Dr. Amy Clark #148

Sex doesn’t usually fail in the bedroom first, it fails in the hours and days before it, when couples stop asking real questions and start running on assumptions. We sit down with Roy and Dr. Amy Clark, co founders of ARIA Luxury Brands and authors of The Four Intimacies, to map a clear path from “we feel disconnected” to “we know how to find each other again.”

We talk through their Four Intimacies framework in plain language: verbal intimacy that opens the door, emotional intimacy that creates safety, physical intimacy that deepens trust and pleasure, and spiritual intimacy that often emerges when the first three are working. Along the way, we get practical about communication skills that actually change relationships, like listening to understand, asking follow up questions, avoiding interruptions, and using “feelings before fixing” when someone is hurting instead of rushing into advice.

We also dig into what physical security really means, why many couples need connection long before sex starts, and how shame around sex, including shame rooted in religious messaging, can be unwound with curiosity, honesty, and support. If you want actionable relationship advice, marriage communication tools, and a healthier view of intimacy, you’ll leave with a better blueprint and a lot of hope.

Subscribe for more conversations like this, share the episode with a friend who’d appreciate it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introductions

Tamara 0:00

Hello, it's Tamara here. Welcome to the show. Today's guest is Roy and Dr. Amy Clark, the co-founder, co-founders of ARIA Luxury Brands, which are lubricants and authors of The Four Intimacies. Thanks for joining me.

Roy 0:12

Thanks for having me. Thanks for uh having us. It's good to be on.

Tamara 0:16

Yes, always good topics. I just I just um talked to someone who was in the sex industry and talked about some uh lubricants a little bit, but he was less knowledgeable about it. So that's a good like a good segue from that. Exactly. So yeah. So we can either talk about what what got you into it or just talk about your the programs in the company and wherever you want to start.

Roy 0:40

Well where would you like to start? What would you like to know?

Why They Study Intimacy In Couples

Tamara 0:46

Um, I mean that's uh usually I ask you know where you got how this became a thing for you guys.

Roy 0:52

Well, uh so we've we have a private practice where we help marriages and families and individuals, and uh most of the couples are struggling with a form of intimacy, either verbal, emotional, physical, or spiritual. And um, this is our second marriage, and so we wanted to uh make sure that we could pass on this incredible love that we have for each other to others and not make the mistakes that we made in our first marriages. So that's where the book came.

Dr. Amy Clark 1:21

Yeah, so um wrote the four intimacies, and we were really studying like through all of our years of experience, our first marriage, and then oh, somebody said the door.

unknown 1:32

Okay.

Dr. Amy Clark 1:32

Um, and then um, and then what makes our relationship work? And um, we were like, is this a formula? Is this something that we can teach? And so we um set forth to write the book, and then for the last six years, we had been teaching the principles out of this to marriages and just really seeing it transform relationships. So but the one area that um that I think it needed extra help was the physical intimacy, and so that's why we designed Aria Luxury Lubricant. It comes with a conversation card that enhance more connection before sex, because women are always saying, I just I want to make love to my husband, I just don't feel really emotionally connected. I feel like that's how the time he's physically present or emotionally present as rate, like five minutes before intimacy.

Tamara 2:21

Yeah. I I have lots of episodes about that. It starts before the bedroom. Yeah, exactly.

Roy 2:28

So I'm telling my guys, um, if you want to make love every day, which we understand isn't very realistic, but it's actually a question that we ask our clients what would it take to make love every day? It really kind of shows all the barriers that they're facing. Well, you know, we would I I'd want to talk to him a little bit more. Uh absolutely, you know, we'd have to do something with the kids, we'd have probably have to get up earlier. Yeah, all those things are just barriers that you can overcome to increase your intimacy. But what they didn't do is they didn't make it a priority. And so uh we we thought if we can create something that reminds people, so it's designed to be displayed, and we have these conversation cards that allow a conversation to start days in advance. I I tell guys, listen, today's what, Friday? Okay, so I am planning on making love for Monday right now. Um you know, I'm having conversations today, so making love on Monday. And guess what? Tomorrow is tomorrow's for Tuesday, pal. So this is a way of life. It's not like, hey, you know, I'm getting lucky tonight. No, this is these are conversations that we have on a regular basis. And so if we can have this in the bedroom, if we can have this in the bedroom, uh conversation and emotional connection, that is actually what you're bringing to physical intimacy.

Tamara 3:53

And so I was gonna say for the for the audio version, since you can't see it, it is a you know a beautiful bottle. And I I read in your in your literature that if you it's meant for display, obviously, so you're not hiding

Designing A Lubricant That Sparks Talk

Tamara 4:05

anything.

Roy 4:06

Yeah, it almost looks like a crystal bottle. It's the uh for the for the listeners, right? It's as if, and this is what the inspiration was. My dad gave me a decanter, this crystal decanter. It's gorgeous, it's got all this etching. My beautiful wife has these lamps that she picked out, and they have these kind of uh almost similar engravings, this diamond pattern on there. And so we wanted something that was absolutely stunning, beautiful, and um, I wanted it to reflect my wife uh because I designed it, and I designed it to reflect her and our our relationship. And so it has this combination of feminine and masculine quality to it, it's solid glass. The cap itself is glass, Pyrex. It's Pyrex and so chatterproof, right?

Dr. Amy Clark 4:56

It's our state.

Roy 4:58

Um, but yeah, it's it's to remind couples to make love and have it be as beautiful as possible. So yeah.

Tamara 5:05

Do you want to share an example of some of the cards or the types of stuff you would talk about or be asked?

Roy 5:12

Darling, what is something I say that makes you feel loved and adored? Um, I think it's just when he takes the time to ask me questions and so we went through verbal, emotional, physical, and spiritual questions on here.

Tamara 5:30

Okay. So each card will have one of each. Yep, yep.

Roy 5:33

Each card has four questions.

Tamara 5:35

So is the intent to do all four or just pick one before, or I guess one that's lacking, maybe.

Roy 5:42

Well, I I think if you start with the verbal, because we believe and we teach it in our book, that the verbal actually unlocks emotional, which then unlocks physical, and then all three unlock or create a spiritual experience. And so you really need to do them in order. And so we'd like you to start with the verbal intimacy question that will lead into an emotional connection, which then leads into a physical source.

Dr. Amy Clark 6:19

And by the time they I think physical intimacy is what chapter five. And so by the time they actually reach the physical intimacy chapter, they are really building their communication again. They're doing something together, they're learning and exploring about each other. And so um, the book has lots of questions. And so um the the physical or I'm sorry, the intimacy card in that box

The Conversation Cards And The Order

Dr. Amy Clark 6:45

is good. And hopefully it just shows people that like okay, if I put a little forethought and have some conversation, then it's going to increase my it's going to increase the pleasure and yes. You're gonna be making a lot more often. Yeah.

Tamara 7:01

So yeah, I was just um well, I just broke up with someone, so this is like but um we I used to say like we need to talk more, we need to talk more. Yeah, and that would have been helpful, yeah, prior to this. Uh to like have these kind of cards and stuff, yeah. Yeah, and and I know online you can get that kind of stuff too, but it's nice that you it's like a package deal.

Roy 7:21

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um we in that verbal intimacy, we teach clients. Uh, and if you're you know, if listeners are gonna write down anything, write down this sentence. We ask questions and listen with the intent to understand and a willingness to be influenced. That's the sentence. There's four parts to it. And so if you want to have a great relationship, and and we have the privilege of working with young couples, young people. I I had a client this morning, 16-year-old young man, and he's got a crush on a girl, and he says, How do I make this work? And I said, Oh, great question, great question. Learn to ask great questions, learn to ask follow-up questions, and if all else fails, just say what else? What else? Oh, yeah. And he's just sitting there smiling, going, Yeah, that's a great idea. Yeah, yeah.

Tamara 8:23

And it it sounds so simple, but not common, not common, yeah, and doable, but just not like yeah, I don't know where it gets lost in translation for a lot of people.

Dr. Amy Clark 8:33

But it gets lost on both sides because sometimes it's like you ask a question, hey, how's your day going? Fine. And it's like don't stop at a one-word answer and then ask a follow-up question. And then it's like, if you can explore the other person, then eventually they'll start talking. Like every day uh we have a 16-year-old daughter, she gets in the car after school. How's your day? Good, and then it's like okay, I could just end the conversation there. Oh, she doesn't want to talk, or I can ask some follow-up questions like, Do you have any tests today? Or what'd you have for lunch? And just those kind of generic questions get the conversation going. And five minutes into the drive, then I'm hearing all the good stuff.

Tamara 9:18

Yeah, because that's one thing uh I was gonna bring up too. Like, I have, and I think a lot of women potentially have this issue too, to interrupt because men tend to think before they speak, and it takes them longer to get something out. So

Questions That Create Real Connection

Tamara 9:30

we are waiting for the question, thinking they're not gonna answer. So we ask another one or just interrupt and start talking. And that that was a very much an issue with him. And he would say, like, you're interrupting me, and then eventually he would just stop talking. So yeah, that is also helpful to understand if you are already experiencing that. Do you have any thoughts on that or think see seeing that as well?

Roy 9:52

Oh, absolutely.

Dr. Amy Clark 9:53

Every day, every day at the office. We will actually say, ask the partner, because one of my pep pees in relationships is like, I think he thinks this. Like, don't ever say I think they think anything. Ask. Clarify. So we would say to a couple, ask your husband what he thinks. Do you get mad when I spend time with my sister? And then before he can even answer, then she's answering for him, and we're just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, yeah.

Roy 10:25

So we have a number of rules, right? One of the rules is no interrupting. Sorry, it's just not gonna happen. And I know it feels like a long time, and you can check in because I know that I had this habit uh in the beginning of our relationship where she'd be talking and I'm working just to pay attention and you know, listen, but I wasn't giving her cues like I was listening. It was just I was right there intent, and she'd go on and on and on and on and on, and she slapped my hand for the listeners out there. Um but she did not know that I was following, that I would there was no kind of engagement there on her part. I'm going, yeah, okay. So she said, Can you just acknowledge that you're with me, that you're understanding? Oh, absolutely sure. You I can do that. And so there's a lot of nodding, there's whatever. But I think couples they do need to learn a cadence with each other. We tell couples all the time, I think you'd be surprised at our cadence of communication at home. Because there's this very slow volley back and forth. We're it it's not that we're like super intentional about it, but I mean we're we are, we we think it through, and it's not like we need to give the perfect answer, but we've just learned to kind of yield some space between us to allow it to happen. And it's not we just check in, babe, you with me? What what are you thinking there? What's going on? Instead of getting frustrated, like, where'd you go? Come on, you know.

Tamara 12:07

Yeah, that's definitely helpful not to do that. And I I will say I was sometimes I'm like, Are you thinking of an answer or are you just taking you know, is it taking a while? Like sometimes it was like that long. And then, but I will say on the opposite side, when I try to interject, like ask like kind of he would be like, you know, kind of thinking I was interrupting him by doing that as well.

unknown 12:25

Yeah.

Tamara 12:26

Or even like commenting, like, oh, you mean her? Or like, you know, try like ask clarifying questions.

Roy 12:30

Yeah.

Tamara 12:32

Is that more of a man thing?

Roy 12:34

You know, we did work with a couple and we had them raise their hands. Because, you know, we also say that communication is like playing catch. It's no fun if just one person holds the ball. Okay, now it needs to go back and forth, all right, and work on that cadence as well. Take turns. There needs to be this back and forth because if it's lopsided or one-sided, the other person's just gonna get exhausted and say, I've had enough. But we have taught that those who can ask those inquiring questions, those inquisitive questions, explore each other, those are the ones with the best relationships.

Tamara 13:32

Yeah, yeah, I can see that because yeah, like I said, he would be would just want me to like not say a thing and just let him say all the things. And I I was fine with listening and I would make an extra effort to really listen, but but yeah, it's like I always assumed it should be a kind of a little bit of a back and forth, not necessarily the whole time, but a clarification question if needed.

Roy 13:49

Definitely, definitely, for sure. Did he ask questions?

Tamara 13:52

No, um, like as it as he was telling a story? Yeah, yeah. Um not necessarily, no. I guess he would just figure if I'm listening, I would get it. Yeah.

Roy 14:03

Okay, okay. So then did he give you the opportunity to speak back?

Tamara 14:09

Yeah. It was more like if it was more like if he was telling a story about something like in the past, like like giving a kind of telling a story about something that was happening. So yeah, there's no real no real reason to interject unless I was something was I wasn't following. Or or I don't know why. I usually don't talk about us, and I guess because we broke up now, I feel freer to do it. Yeah, but especially like if he's telling a story, and then I like I'm driving and I'm like, or he's driving and I'm like, oh, turn here, or and it interrupts the flow of it, and then you know, he'll then he'll stop after that because like I should be paying so much attention that I don't do anything.

Dr. Amy Clark 14:42

Um I'm sorry to hear that because that's but I think that it's really like per couple, like clarifying what feels good because Roy worked with somebody that Roy would try to track with him and say, uh-huh, yeah, and make little noises, letting him know that he was tracking with him. And the guy was like, Stop doing that, that's so frustrating. And like it's a Roy sits there like stoic. And for me, that didn't work at all. Yeah, I well, like non-verbal communication is very important, eye contact and like really paying attention not being distracted, fidgeting and stuff like that. But um, I said I actually want those little okay, makes sense, got it. Like a little laugh or whatever. Just let me know that you're with me in the conversation.

Roy 15:32

And if you're coming up on the exit, please let us know.

Dr. Amy Clark 15:35

Yeah.

Tamara 15:38

Yeah. I like I said, I usually don't discuss all of this, but no, I mean it it's it's good to hear that it's not necessarily the ideal either, because I was used to feel bad, like, oh my god, I'm interrupting him. Yeah, yeah, you should be able to speak a little bit too. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, not that he like stopped me stopping, he just didn't tell as many stories, like he just stopped really telling stories.

Roy 15:59

Yeah. Well, sometimes it's good though to re-engage with those because I know that there are times when I shut down a little bit or Amy will shut down a little bit, and there needs to be a couple more priming questions. Hey babe, where where are you where were you at with that story? Because I was listening, you know, we walk every morning and we love our neighborhood. We we we have neighbors that are walking, and so we are always saying hi to our neighbors, we're always stopping, you know, it's just one of those beautiful communities. But I don't know how many times we're in the middle of a story, and here comes John with his two dogs, hey John, how's it going? Blah, blah, blah. You know, and then we'll keep walking. And all right, so babe, you were saying that you know, this client was doing this, and you were asking this question. Where are you at with it? And so those re-engaging questions, or even, hey babe, stick with me. Like, don't I didn't mean to interrupt you, I apologize. Where are you at with that? Talk to me.

Tamara 16:57

Yeah, and and that did work a couple times where I was like, I'm like, I'm swearing I'm listening, I want to hear this. I just you know, and the other issue is you know, I'm all about efficiency and being quick and getting things done, and he's more laid back and chill. So we discovered that early on, and that's probably why that's really the foundation of why it doesn't work or didn't work. Yeah, because you know, I'm trying to do two things at once, and he is not about that. Yeah, yeah. I don't know

Empathy Skills And Feelings Before Fixing

Tamara 17:24

if you want to talk, um, like well, I mean, I we're doing it. You know, are there other issues that are very common that you would highly suggest not doing to make the couples work well? Absolutely.

Dr. Amy Clark 17:35

Well, I think the one intimacy that both sexes tend to not be profession proficient in is the emotional intimacy. Yeah, being able to identify and empathize with somebody. There are some really bad habits in that people have good intentions. Like if Roy's telling a story and then I'm trying to connect with him and say, Oh yeah, that happened to me too, and then I tell, like I interrupt his story trying to connect with him. And then it's like the person trying to tell the story is like, we just made it about you. I was trying to talk. And I think people are very well intentioned, but I have the that's one of the bad habits we see a lot. And then um men seem to want to fix everything very quickly. So if their wife is saying, I got in a fight with my best friend, I'll just break up with her, get a new friend, or just like a very quick, dismissive answer instead of just saying, Wow, that sucks. That must really hurt.

Tamara 18:38

Yeah. That is one thing we did well in the beginning. He's he started fixing, and I was like, I was like, Well, first can you like acknowledge like that what I said? Like, yeah, and then you know, and then then potentially do that, but don't just it's almost feeling like you're dismissing it if you don't say, Well, oh, that must be hard, then offer something.

Roy 18:57

Right. No, so you wanted him to verbally recognize what you had said, and then you wanted him to emotionally connect with you, which is the way it works or the way it needs to work, because that verbal will unlock the emotional. So when we're talking, we're always really listening for each other's emotions. Like you really need to be, you need to pay attention to the person that's speaking. This is not about me, it's about what Amy's going through. So not only am I listening to her words, but I'm also listening for her emotions because I know that when the time comes, I'm gonna say, babe, that was awful. You must feel awful. Or, hey, that's awesome, that's so cool. You gotta feel great about that, don't you bet? You know, I think people only want to empathize when it's sad, but that's that's not true. No, no, no. You sap you empathize with every emotion, and then you'll get to see how that actually fixes the situation on its own. Because when she feels safe, that's when the answers are gonna come to her.

Dr. Amy Clark 20:02

We have two phrases we use a lot hearing is healing, and then feelings before fixing, like we're like guys, tattoo that's on your arm or address the feelings before you fix it. And women sometimes do that too. And again, really good attention. You you can't stand seeing somebody that you love hurting, so that instinct is to just go in and give advice really quick, but it's it does sound dismissive. And then I think that parents make this error a lot when it comes to their kids. They're like, I have to parent, and so they just go in and give lectures or advice instead of really just exploring the emotions and then asking a question like what do you think you're gonna do next?

Tamara 20:47

Like, empower your children, don't just sit there and give them the answers, yeah, let them figure out and learn.

Roy 20:54

Yeah, give them options, right? I mean, we're still parents. You know, we want you to do A or B, unless you've got a better C, let me know. But uh robbing a bank is not an option, so keep the job, whatever.

Tamara 21:07

Yeah. Are

Physical Intimacy Needs Security First

Tamara 21:08

there I know we talked about verbal and emotional. Do you want to talk more about the physical? That's the next one, right?

Roy 21:14

Yeah, that's the next one. So we say when it comes to physical intimacy, you provide two things. One, you provide security. Um, we know that on average it takes a woman 20 minutes to orgasm. If she doesn't feel safe, she probably won't orgasm if she doesn't feel secure in that relationship. And and what we're talking about is not did you lock the door or you know, do you know you're not gonna hit me or cheat on me? No, no, no, no. There's there's so much more to physical, intimate security than locking the door. It's about emotional safety, emotional safety and verbal safety. Like she needs to know that she can say anything and that she can feel and experience anything. When she feels secure there, then she's gonna open up herself for more pleasure. And so that's the second thing that we provide: security and pleasure. And the pleasure for your listeners is ten times better when each person, not just the woman, but each person feels secure. So people are like, wow. How do I bring security? Oh great question. Through verbal and emotional. You can't just jump to number three. You need one and two to have three. Not just to get three. So are you perfect?

Dr. Amy Clark 22:45

Spirituality.

Tamara 22:47

Spiritual side.

Roy 22:48

Yeah.

Dr. Amy Clark 22:48

We spiritual intimacy means a couple different things because we

Spiritual Intimacy And Shared Meaning

Dr. Amy Clark 22:54

do work with clients who are not of a faith background or are a different religion than we are. And so we think that spiritual intimacy is a culmination of the first three. When you have verbal, emotional, and physical intimacy all working together beautifully, it does bring something spiritual. You can't put your finger on it. There is just a connection with your partner that is bigger than yourself. Yeah, it's hard to define. And so it can also mean like having a shared faith. And um again, we see people do that right and we see a lot of people do that wrong.

Roy 23:34

So if I background a lot of I was a pastor for 10 years, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, a long time ago. Uh Amy is a faith-based counselor. And so we get couples coming in like, we love God, we love Jesus, but the marriage sucks. Yeah. Well, that's because you didn't learn how to communicate and you didn't learn how to empathize. And you thought that the sex was good, but it dried up because you didn't have verbal or emotional. And then you just kind of ran to the church or thought Jesus was going to save it. And guess what? It doesn't work that way. And so we think that when couples experience verbal, emotional, and physical, they actually get to know a God who's bigger than themselves, but who's so good that he longs for his children to have this incredible verbal, emotional, and physical intimacy. We kind of say it tongue in cheek. God invented the orgasm. This was his idea. Like, don't go taking, you know, claiming that for yourselves. This was his idea. So maybe you want to incorporate that into your I into your ideologies as well. And so we encourage couples to seek a God that's bigger than them, that is good, and that is mysterious. And people are like, Why mysterious? Well, a mysterious God keeps you seeking, keeps you learning. We encourage couples to pursue spirituality together in this non-judgmental, non-condemning uh atmosphere where they seek a God that is bigger than themselves, that is good, and that is mysterious.

Dr. Amy Clark 25:10

Or even, you know, the Bible talks about how the um the marriage is supposed to reflect the way that Christ loves the church. And so if somebody does not have a faith background, then we say we we would like your relationship to have those three qualities. One, to believe that the relationship is good, to have a positive belief system about your partner and the relationship. Two, that the bigger than me, it's like that the we is greater than me. That together, like I'm good on my own, but together with Roy, we're very powerful. This is better. And then the mysterious part, we see couples that are together for like 20, 30 years, and they keep saying, But you weren't like that when I met you. Well, oh my gosh, I hope not. Like if I just shoot me if I'm the same person as like I was when I was 20 years old. Like we want to always be exploring each other and a faith, if that's your thing. Right.

Tamara 26:11

I was I was gonna ask about because I know like some religious people are taught, you know, growing up like sex is bad, sex is dirty, don't do it till you're married, and then they don't know what they're doing because they never had it till they got married, and or just you know, right. What are your thoughts on that part of it?

Unlearning Sex Shame And Rewiring Beliefs

Roy 26:29

Oh, we deal with that every day, yes. Yeah, that's why we we'd like to talk about this God that invented the orgasm. Uh, he is a a God that desires for his children to make love on a regular basis. The only reason for the orgasm is pleasure. And so obviously, he is this or the idea is that we are intended for pleasure. And so it is something that we pursue. It's also something that we protect, though. Uh, this isn't, you know, we're not out sleeping with everybody in the world. Okay, it's a very intimate experience. Physical intimacy is the only intimacy that you can provide for each other.

Dr. Amy Clark 27:09

That no, that you can't get other places.

Roy 27:12

Yeah, that you can't get other places that you only provide for each other.

Dr. Amy Clark 27:15

Yeah, like I can get verbal and emotional and spiritual from other people, but physical intimacy is only here. So um, but yeah, it does take time. Like we've seen um religion damage a lot of people and relationships, and so there is a way to unwind that though. Like to like have somebody really ask themselves like when I say the word sex, like, is there a recoil? Is there like do you feel yourself constrict and feel closed off, or does your heart feel open and comfortable with that? And there is a um, we study a lot about the brain and neuroplasticity and the ways that we can reprogram the brain. And so there is way there are ways around that, but people don't talk about sex even in therapy. It's really hard to get them to like communicate and to share, and it's such a safe place.

Tamara 28:11

So yeah, having a podcast about sex, I definitely am aware of that. But at least on this show, like everyone is pretty open, obviously. But yeah. And um, do you want to talk about how people can work with you or reach you or just more how to find your stuff?

Roy 28:28

Absolutely. Uh, you can find us at Aria Lux Life. That's A-R-I-A-L-U-XE

Where To Find Them And Final Takeaways

Roy 28:35

L I F E. ArieluxLife.com. And you can get our book there, our loop there, and you can even reach out and set up a consultation with us there.

unknown 28:45

Okay.

Tamara 28:45

And then do you have any like final thoughts or takeaways you want to leave? All right, wait, babe.

Dr. Amy Clark 28:51

No, I would I would just say that um it is possible to have a great relationship no matter where you're at right now. And so like we work with couples that think that they're too far gone, or like, I don't know if if we're capable of this. And I would say communicate with your partner, know that there's help out there, it's never too late, and don't settle, don't settle for good. Yeah, make it great.

Roy 29:21

Yeah, I would say that you were created for an extraordinary love. Absolutely. And uh, even though you've personally been through this breakup, I would say, let's do everything we can to find an extraordinary love for you and have that relationship. It is doable and you are worth it. Absolutely, you're worth it.

Dr. Amy Clark 29:42

We've had a lot of people post-breakup or divorce, and they read our book and they're like, Oh my gosh, I wish I would have read this before.

Roy 29:49

Yeah.

Dr. Amy Clark 29:49

And then so they read the book even though they're not in a relationship, and then they're like, All right, now I feel like I have my toolbox full so that when I go into my next relationship, I'm better prepared. So we tried to put everything that we knew into that book, and um so far it's working. It's working.

Tamara 30:08

Yeah, yeah, I could definitely see that. And I had a similar thing where I've I knew a lot of stuff, and I and I would just continue to do what I knew not to do to him. So, so yeah, it's helpful to keep it a reminder, then having the book on your nightstand would probably be a better reminder. So, all right. Well, thank you very much for being on. Absolutely. And if you love this episode, be sure to tell your friends about it and rate it as well. So, all right, thanks again. Bye bye, everyone.