Robbie Trevino

Episode 26: Show Notes.

Today’s guest is the multi-passionate, multi-talented, Robbie Trevino. Despite what many people from his hometown believe about the art industry, Robbie makes a living as a conceptual artist and illustrator. He works in a wide range of fields, and is always open to whatever new opportunities present themselves to him; right now he’s working on designs for a skateboard deck, shoes, and a car wrap! He has also immersed himself in the world of NFT’s (after a lot of initial skepticism towards the idea), which has opened up so many doors for him. In today’s episode, Robbie shares his journey from sci-fi obsessed school boy in a town full of factory workers and sports fanatics, to the interesting experiences he had as a blue collar worker in numerous industries, to the successful artist he is today, and what he plans on doing if his career takes a turn for the worse. Cars and food are also a major feature covered in this conversation, and Robbie has some advice to share which may sound simple, but is probably one of the most profound and inspiring things you’ll ever hear! 

Key Points From This Episode:

•   An introduction to today’s guest, conceptual artist and illustrator Robbie Trevino. 

•   The two hardware wallets that Robbie has, and why he has two.

•   Robbie’s first thoughts about NFTs, and the collection drop that made him change his mind.

•   How society’s relationship with art and design has evolved over time.

•   The wide range of quality of NFT artworks, and the wide range of opinions on the concept as a whole.

•   Robbie shares what his childhood years were like, and where he found his escape.

•   The transition that Robbie made after his first year at the College for Creative Studies.

•   An overview of what Robbie’s career has consisted of to date.

•   How getting into the world of NFTs has benefited Robbie.

•   Why Robbie doesn’t put himself into any particular artistic box.

•   Experiences that Robbie had and lessons he learned at the jobs he held prior to becoming a professional artist.

•   The animal Robbie would choose to be if he could, and why.

•   Another passion area of Robbie’s, and his plan B if his art career doesn’t work out!

•   Types of cars that Robbie loves.

•   Valuable advice from Robbie about making decisions about your career as an artist.

•   Why trends should be approached with caution.

•   I share a bit about my art investing strategy, and a piece that I would love to have in my collection.

•   Robbie’s memorable culinary experience at Papi’s Steakhouse, and why you should never skimp on food.


Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:

Robbie Trevino on Twitter

Robbie Trevino on Instagram

Robbie Trevino on SuperRare

Numinous

NorCal and Shill on Twitter

Transcript

EPISODE 26

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:31] NorCal: Hey everyone. Welcome to the next episode of NorCal and Shill. Today's guest is Robbie Trevino. You can find him on Twitter @RobbieSTrevino spelled R-O-B-B-I-E S T-R-E-V-I-N-O, His Instagram is @robbietrevinoart. About Robbie, he is a conceptual artist and illustrator based in Seattle, Washington specializing in surreal and sci-fi illustration and design. Following a childhood love of all things mechanically and biologically designed, he studied at a traditional art school and has worked professionally in triple A games, TV and film for the past 10 years. Some of his clients include Lucasfilm, Star Wars, Tool, Dead Mouse, Magic, The Gathering, Netflix, Love, Death and Robots, Thou, X Box, Mondo, 3D Total, Art Station, Pixel Vault, The Crypto PUNKS Comic Issue number one and many more. He is also the creator of the multimedia project, Numinous. You can find his work on SuperRare. Everyone, please welcome Robbie Trevino.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:58] NorCal: Hey, Robbie, welcome to the podcast. How you doing today?

[00:02:02] RT: I’m doing great. How about yourself?

[00:02:03] NorCal: I cannot complain. Things are going well. It's a lovely Thursday.

[00:02:08] RT: Yeah, it's almost Friday. Although, I feel like the last four or five years of my life don't – I don't really know what day it is anymore. It doesn't really matter. I don't really have a weekend, I’ll put it that way.

[00:02:25] NorCal: I guess we have weekends, because my wife still works three days a week. But that's always like, “Oh, shoot. Tomorrow you got to go back to work.”

[00:02:33] RT: I mean, it's nice and it's also kind of crazy to like, not have like a set schedule. I guess I do have weekends, but sometimes a weekend can be like a Tuesday/Wednesday. And sometimes it's like a Friday or a Saturday, if that makes sense. I still take breaks, but it's not the standard 9 to 5 situation, I guess.

[00:02:52] NorCal: Yeah. But then you mean you can go on vacation in the middle of the week when it's cheaper.

[00:02:58] RT: It's awesome. Although, recently I went back to my home state after two years of being away per COVID. And leaving that state with like the current like pandemic situation and like, traveling like via airplane was a complete mess. Vacation was awesome, until, was getting stranded, like in like layovers and different states and stuff. I mean, for the most part, yeah, it's pretty chill. Do what you do at your own pace. It's pretty awesome.

[00:03:32] NorCal: Yeah, it's not a bad way to go. So, do you have a hardware wallet?

[00:03:36] RT: Every time I see – every time I watch this podcast, and this question comes up, and I'm like, “They better say yes,” every time. And like, I'm pretty sure the answer isn't always yes. In this case, it is yes, though. I pretty much early on, I started doing the whole NFT thing, specifically, in February of last year. So, let's see, it's almost February now. So, we'll say, NFT time doing this for 10 years. Okay, so in the last decade, I have learned the pros and cons of a hardware wallet.

Yes, I have two, actually. I have a Ledger and a Trezor. I was like, I didn't know which one would be better. So, I just bought both, because I’m crazy. And then it turns out, I don't know, with like plugins and browsers and whatnot, I feel like Ledger cooperates a little bit better than a Trezor, mostly just retrieving your NFT's specifically not just your currencies. I mean, yeah, it's I don't know, it's like we were saying before recording, like $150 investment to like, save potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars is not a bad trade off in my mind.

[00:04:47] NorCal: Yeah, it's not a big deal when your ape was worth, one ETH, but now that it's worth like 80 or 90, whatever the floor is now, it's like, shoot.

[00:04:58] RT: But just like I don't know, pennies make dollars right? I don't come from money. So, like even one Ethereum is still one Ethereum and it's your Ethereum, not someone else's. So, you should hold onto that.

[00:05:14] NorCal: So, you’d be a good guest to ask this. Just the user interface between the two, it sounds like you like the Ledger better, at least for interacting online. How was the setup of one versus the other?

[00:05:25] RT: Honestly, I think Trezor was easier to set up than a Ledger. Ledger required, and maybe it's because I'm – I jumped between Chrome and Brave for browsers, you know, to kind of like see, because some things would show up and you'd have to get certain plugins, like to make something show up in your wallet. So, there's all this weird – it’s kind of like trading like unlisted currency, like between funky wallets, where you’re like, this feels like a weird hat or something. And I'm like, what I'm doing is like illegal or whatever. But because it's just so convoluted and bizarre.

But I think Trezor is easier to set up than a Ledger, I guess. But perhaps that's because I think, I don't know if one's more capable than the other. I think they're both supposed to do what the other does. It's just, I seem to have better luck with the actual user experience of the Ledger, but the Trezor was easier to set up, if that makes sense.

[00:06:31] NorCal: Okay. I mean, I've messed around with both. I have both. It's interesting to hear people's thoughts on two, because most people just have one or the other.

[00:06:42] RT: I don't know. There are certainly purists on both sides, right? I'm kind of in the middle. So, when you get an earful of opinions from both sides, you kind of don't really know who to go with. So, if you can just go with both. I mean, that was me back in like, my childhood, right? Or, like, you had the kids who swore by PlayStation, and then the kids who swore by Nintendo, and I was like, obviously, have both. But I couldn't actually afford both. So, I think I went with Nintendo, initially. But I would have done both if I could. And then every once in a while, you had, like, the one kid whose parents had a lot of money, who like just had everything, like I got the Dreamcast and the Sega and the PlayStation. That's like a rare outlier. But usually, I don't know, people are one or the other. But they're both adequate. People use them for a reason.

[00:07:41] NorCal: Yeah, they're fairly simple. They're fairly similar. Yeah, just got to get it. So, what were your first thoughts when you heard about NFTs?

[00:07:50] RT: I was, I think I had seen it distantly, and not really known what it was called at the time. And I kind of thought, “This is like one of those –” I think it was Beeple, like Beeple’s early nifty gateway days, I believe. I don't know if it was his first drop. Was Everyday, was that Nifty Gateway or is it a different website?

[00:08:12] NorCal: I don't – I wasn't on Nifty Gateway when that potentially happened. I think it wasn’t on Nifty Gateway though.

[00:08:20] RT: I just saw that he had the Everyday collection, and I had watched him make that over like six or seven years. Because as an artist, like, I just had followed Beeple. So, I was aware of Beeple, and I had seen some stuff, and I thought it was called NFT. I was like, “Oh, that's Beeple. He's like, a special case. He’s a bit of an art celebrity. Whatever happens to Beeple, it never happened to me or someone like me. So, I don't really care, whatever.”

And then around February, like, mid-February, a couple of weeks in. People are, my friends, they’re telling me like, “Hey, have you heard of this NFT thing?” And I'm like, “Oh, is that the Beeple thing? I don't know.” And then like more people are like, “Listen, like this stuff's really starting to pop up. You could probably be successful at this, I'm sure you could sell some artwork this way.” And I was like, “I'm busy making real money in the real world, fuck off with this NFT dreck,” and they were just like, “No, no like for real.” And then I think it was the Mad Dog Jones drop that really solidified me. I think it was – oh, man I'm going to mess up the name. I really should know. Crash and Burn, I think was the collection. It had a lot of like mechanics to it and was like his first bigger collection. I think he had done like a thing with Dead Mouse prior to that, also in Nifty Gateway. But this was like, it was a really fun mechanics and it was really successful. It did really well at Nifty Gateway. But I saw that, I was like, “Man, I’ve followed Mad Dog Jones for years. And he's not Beeple. I guess this is happening to like more and more artists.”

And I started looking into it and realized, “Wow, there's actually a lot of people I follow who are doing this, and have been doing this since like last year.” For whatever reason, it wasn't even on my radar. Yes, obviously, I saw the money like everybody else did, like, initially and I was like, “I cannot believe what is happening.” And then when I started looking into the concept of what a non-fungible token was, and that began to – I was aware of cryptocurrencies, but only the really big ones. I think most people have at least heard of Bitcoin. But I didn't really like think of the two as one and the same and I don't now, because they're not. I don't know. I really like compartmentalized ideas of what these things were, and I didn't realize that they all were sort of beginning to grow this like entire, like ecosystem of collectors and artists and enthusiasts and projects and products.

I’ve just seen some activity from a distance, and I was like, “I don't know, it doesn't seem like that would be a real thing.” And then as I saw people I followed and then eventually, friends, I can talk to you directly and ask about getting involved, and realizing, like, “Oh, this is actually a thing.” I was like, “Well, there's a lot of opportunity here, potentially.” And then that kind of became an interest in NFT's.

[00:11:40] NorCal: Nice. I mean, I remember hearing about them, too.

[00:11:43] RT: I mean, that too. I was mostly, like, “I’m making real money. This is some bullshit, whatever. Who would pay for a JPEG? Why?” I said the same thing that a lot of people do, which is like, “This just sounds like total bullshit,” basically.

[00:12:05] NorCal: Right. I was there with you. Exactly. It wasn't until like November of 2020, that I started to actually look at it. Because before that, I was just like, “Man, these guys are just trading. I don't even know what they're doing. They're playing some game. There's no money over there. It's just these things.”

[00:12:28] RT: Well, you know, what's interesting about that, I think just the concept on its face, right? Because it kind of began with JPEGs, and I don't mean NFT's. An NFT could be literally anything, but like the sort of mass adopted idea or popularization, the sort of going mainstream thing that happened last year. Kind of at the forefront because it was so palatable, and digestible was JPEGs, like static JPEGs. It kind of began there.

Now, again, you could, like the registration to a car or title to a car or like, the deed to a house, these things could all be NFT's, potentially. But like, yeah, a JPEG is like pretty digestible, it's pretty easily understood. I think, because we're inundated with so much visual information nowadays, anyway, whether it's like something animated and rigged, and it's literally full of life and movement on screen, or something as simple as, yeah, just like a print of artwork, plastered on the side of a wall or something. We see and digest visual and digital information so much so that like, we don't even consider it. We don't notice it for like what it is anymore.

Someone did have to consciously design, pretty much all the architecture, all the furniture, all the clothing, like everything that you see that functions in society, including this visual information. Someone in some artistic sort of sense, created it, and brought it to fruition and we don't really think of those things. People don't even notice any of this. We're surrounded by thoughtful design and art all the time.

And so, I think the sort of reality of like – it’s kind of forgotten that it's like, there was a time where if you wanted to see anything visually stimulating like that, you had to travel to a place, pay admission, see a gallery of some sort or an exhibit, right? And then outside of that, it’s just Earth and dirt. I think we've kind of forgotten what art even is, in a way. So, the concept of – now, you have to pay for it, even though you can see it anyway, online. It's like people are like, “That is just crazy. Why would anyone do that?” Well, maybe it shouldn't be like that. Maybe people shouldn't be allowed to just see literally anything they want to.

I mean, that's one way to look at it. But then the question of like, is art meant to be sold or experienced? That's another discussion. I'm just saying, I think the concept of just the whole right click, save, like, why would you pay for this? That whole argument, a lot of it does come from just the fact that we have access to so much of this information already for free, that it just seems kind of crazy that anyone should put a price tag on it in just the digital form. 

[00:15:30] NorCal: Right. It is kind of crazy to think about. I mean, technology, at least, as we go further along, it gets cheaper and better and cheaper and better. And then we're paying for this digital art now, which is kind of interesting too – you think it'd be getting cheaper and better. 

[00:15:49] RT: It's so speculative too. What holds its value now might not later. I don't know. People are essentially like, keeping bets right now, in a lot of ways. I don't know, I've always thought of this stuff, mostly as art. That's just my brain, though. I'm definitely the guy that will be playing a video game, and then like, instead of being on a quest, I'll just be looking at the ground, admiring the craftsmanship of the textures. People are like, “What are you doing?” And I’m like, “Looking at this pile of rocks, it’s so sick.” And people are like, “Dude, that's not even like the game.” And I'm like, “I know, but like, I'm admiring the thought put into something.”

So, for me, I don't know, I am sure I've forgotten too, or I've looked at things a certain way. But to some people, none of this, it's all just, “What do you mean? That's just a thing that exists.” And it's like, but you don't look at it and see objective thought or critical thinking or like the design or the intent behind it? You kind of just use it and it exists and it's always there. And then I don't know. So, maybe that's why the concept of NFT's to me is more understandable, I guess, than some people. Some people who just say, “Hell no”, right off the bat without like a second thought.

[00:17:14] NorCal: Yeah, well, I mean, I feel – well, I say that, from the inside that I feel like it's easier for, potentially, for artists to look at this and be like, “Hey, this is awesome thing.” But you still got a bunch of people out there like, “No.”

[00:17:33] RT: I mean, it's certainly, to be fair to the people on the outside, as someone who was also on the outset, at one point. I mean, the low effort, like garbage that you see that does generate crazy amounts of money, that definitely doesn't help their opinions, right? Unfortunately, so much of that is what makes the news outside of the space rather than the actual quality. The amount of amazing art I've seen that will get its attention, its due attention, maybe is so much smaller than the bad stuff that is just part of like some scam that has a bunch of people and tons of money. And there's so much quality and work that is overlooked for these reasons, and it's just frustrating because it's like we – if someone could just do the tabloid, or like the paparazzi story, but of the good shit, I think people might have a different opinion. I don't know if they'd still completely shake their head or not. But I think it would at least help the argument to show the quality that does exist in the space instead of just the garbage.

[00:18:45] NorCal: Yeah. I mean, a lot of people these days are seeing like, “Oh, I bought this ape JPEG for who knows how much.” I think, just recently you saw Fallon, that clip with Paris Hilton, “Oh, we both have apes. That cost as much as a house for everyone that's watched this.”

[00:19:04] RT: I wonder how that makes them feel. The people that can barely even like pay rent. I guess, it's not any more ridiculous than when someone flashes a Rolex, and they're like, “This is five years of pay for you or something.” And it's just like, “I wear it on my wrist. I don't care about it.”

[00:19:31] NorCal: I mean, it is technically no different than a Rolex or the Ferrari or whatever. It's just a digital flex. But same time people are like, “Wait, you paid how much for it?” Just because so many people are still on the outside of it. “You paid how much for that picture of a cartoon ape?”

[00:19:47] RT: It definitely does feel even more absurd when you factor in the idea that it's like the real-world utility of a car that can take you from point A to point B versus just the JPEG of like a monkey face. It is somewhat maddening, I'm sure, I literally can't believe like, what timeline are we in? This is crazy. We live in this society.

[00:20:21] NorCal: So, how did you choose art? What brought you to it?

[00:20:25] RT: I was definitely one of those kids. Have you seen those commercials where like, it's usually for art s”chool, and it’s like, “Did you draw in your notebook while you should have been taking notes? And then it just shows some kid like in math class, drawing like a centaur or something. And it's like, “Okay.” I was definitely that kid, 100%. Even now, I guess I am that kid. I'm not like stuck in a class. I can just draw whatever comes into my mind anyway. I mean, I can't remember starting doing art. There wasn't like a particular formative experience where it’s like, “And that is when the artist Robbie was born.” It didn't happen like that.

I just recall, as a kid, always trying. And if I wasn't drawing, I was building things out of like, Lincoln Logs, Legos, Mega Blocks. I was either building something with my hands, or I was drawing something with paper and pencil. I don't know. I come from the Detroit metropolitan area, Michigan, and so much of that Midwestern lifestyle is very – it’s very blue collar. It's very – so many of my friend’s parents were assembly line workers for like Ford or GM or Chrysler, whatever. It's kind of the only life I saw for myself, like if you weren't some athlete with a crazy good scholarship, you basically were going to be doing some form of manual labor. Unless you were really smart, maybe, you can like practice law or something.

I don't know, my escape from sort of – I’m not a huge sports guy at all. I don't know if that comes from witnessing the crazy, football dad, shirtless, drunk. That overly enthusiastic sports parents. I don't know what it was, but I never really gravitated towards sports a ton, despite it being like, mostly what was culturally relevant, where I was from. What I did see was like, I got a lot of my joy and my satisfaction in life through experiencing a lot of forms of science fiction illustration, or epic fantasy adventures. Whether it was like a trading card game, or it was a sci-fi trilogy, Star Wars or even Star Trek or Star Gate. Lots of sci-fi type stuff, even to like literature. Things like Dune. Some of the early like Halo books. I felt the world was bigger than what I was experiencing for most of my childhood. And the way I experienced it, a broader lens was through works of science fiction. And then all the digital, I guess, I should say visual information that came with it, lots of cross section books, like those old Star Wars books.

And then when I got into art school eventually, even more so, it was like the art of and then insert famous designer, whether it was H.R. Giger, Syd Mead or Mobius. The greats tend to have their own art books eventually. Initially, it was experiencing just those sorts of science fiction settings, those fantastical worlds that are just larger than life, whether it's an anime, or a live action movie. Things that don't exist in the real world and probably never could, and that’s how I would experience it. And then eventually there came a point where I wanted to do something along the lines of how those worlds were built. But at the time I wasn't sure, I was like, “You can't just be a filmmaker. What could you do to make money? How could you create entire worlds?”

What I did see that was a lot more tangible was in the Detroit area. It’s the Motor City, right? Car culture, what is another big thing in Detroit. I am a huge car person. I love cars. I feel like this is what we’ve talked about a lot, you and I privately. That's its own separate thing, right? I think in a perfect world, I'd have like a restoration garage with a new project every year, and I would just rebuild cars. And that would be a side hobby or something. But I knew that car design was an opportunity in the Michigan area. That was a very tangible thing to me. As cool as it would be to work on a world building or try to work on something Star Wars related at the time, I didn't think that would ever be in the grasp of reality.

But what was, was working for companies, industrial design, car design, product design, and since I love cars so much, I went to art school. And when I went to art school, I went to the College for Creative Studies, which is in Detroit, Michigan, and they focus primarily on – I mean, they've got photography, fine arts, interior design, illustration. But automotive design is a big one, and their placement is really high. So, the first year, I was just drawing cars, and at the time, I thought, when I started, “You're going to be drawing the next Viper and that's going to be sick.” And then when I found out that is the reality is, as a car designer, you're more likely just going to draw door handles or mirrors for a minivan. I was like, “Not really my jam.” And then when I started talking to faculty in various departments, I met up with the illustration faculty, and they basically brought up the same handful of IPs that I was discussing earlier, Star Wars, Dune, Star Trek, just all this stuff, or any of the token stuff, Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, all that. And they were like, “Listen, you could do illustration.” They showed me all these books, and one of the big ones that they showed me, I don't even know who he was at the time, but Syd Mead, the legendary designer, Syd Mead, who sent a lot of automotive type work historically, a lot of – I think it was the General Steel Company in the ‘70s.

Syd Mead is the guy that basically envisioned the Elysium, Mass Effect ring worlds that you see in today's sci-fi games and stuff. He thought of that back in the ‘70s. He also thought of a lot of hypothetical sci-fi futuristic situations that ended up are kind of happening now. Traffic jams in LA, stuff like that, with more sci-fi cars, and more of a sci-fi spin. But he essentially was this visual futurist that had these books full of his illustrations that he had done. He had designed basically the entire world visually of Blade Runner, the original Blade Runner. So, he kind of helped create the visual aesthetic that we kind of have come to know Cyberpunk as now.

I saw all this stuff in context with actual, like, “Here's the work.” It was concept art, essentially, is what I was seeing. I never heard that as a term before. I just knew about illustrators. I just knew about these major intellectual properties that I got to experience. And when I saw that you could essentially get paid to create the artwork that would realize those worlds, I was like, “Oh, that might be the next move. I have no idea how it's going to happen. But this sure beats the hell out of door handles.” So, I moved into illustration, and when I got out of art school after that, my first client ever was Wizards of the Coast. And they do Magic the Gathering, Dungeons and Dragons, pretty big intellectual properties. And I never gotten to Magic, the game, so much as I did the lore and writing. I'm definitely a PVE kind of guy.

So, I'd probably quest with friends in D&D on a campaign before I'd intellectually destroyed my opposition in Magic the Gathering which is a very PvP mindset in my mind. But I really like the art. I really liked the thought that was put into the worlds and I ended up just kind of right out of college, working for them, and I still work for them now. But yeah, tabletop RPG was the first sort of professional endeavor, and then a couple years after that, I moved into triple A game development, and ended up moving out to the West Coast, Seattle, where I live now. And games are huge here. We have Xbox, Valve, Bungie, just major developers out here.

I did a lot of work. I did a lot of a contract work for these big companies and I ended up sort of branching away from that a little bit. Spend a little bit of time in casino games and a little bit of time and TV and film. And then, ended up kind of here now in this sort of NFT ecosystem we have. But it's not to say that, I'm not done doing any one of these things. I don’t consider myself one specific type of artist. Whenever I hear the term NFT artist, I don’t cringe, but I kind of just feel I don't understand that. Because NFT's are just one facet of this technology that an artist could use to express themselves, to make money with their – or I guess, sell, create some sort of marketplace for their artwork that didn't exist before. But it's just another means of distribution, essentially. It shouldn't define you and it certainly doesn't define me. I'm just an artist who happens to also make NFT's. But I'm working with a skateboard company on a deck right now. I'm working on a shoe with a shoe company right now. And I'm working on a car wrap that's going to go around a celebrity’s car for the gumball run this year.

I'm talking about maybe doing a solo, physical show, in LA, later this year. None of those things are inherently one specific type of art or the other. It's just, I'm trying to just do as many different things as I can and see how I like them, see how the experience goes, see what doors it could open for me. But up until this point, before the whole NFT thing, I didn't really have any kind of financial runway to sort of go on these little creative endeavors and take a risk and see if something is going to – spend a year working on a thing, and if it fails, well, it fails, and that's that. Before the whole NFT thing, financially speaking, it was just almost literally paycheck to paycheck, despite having a really nice client list. This is the West Coast. America is kind of crazy, but taxes and debt and all that stuff, which is a whole other discussion.

But I don't know. I started out just loving the worlds that art has helped create, a lot of the fictional stuff, wanted to help create those worlds myself, and I have done a lot of that now. But there's a bunch of new things that I want to try, that I'm now trying this year. We’ll see where it goes, basically. But I haven't stopped doing one thing or the other. If an interesting opportunity presents itself, no matter what it is, if it somehow benefits my career and enriches my life, I'm interested. Why not? I think this is how you evolve. I think this is how you stay relevant. I think this is one of the most effective ways to help you create the best work you possibly can.

[00:33:14] NorCal: So, have you done any jobs besides art?

[00:33:19] RT: Yeah, dude. Dude, I grew up in Michigan, man. You want to talk about other jobs? My first job ever, I worked at a KFC, Kentucky Fried Chicken. My boss, right? I worked with a bunch of street racers. My boss was this hilarious Mexican guy named Gaston and he had the most Fast and the Furious looking Honda Civic ever. I mean, I look at it now, this is hilarious. But at the time, I was like 13, 14, and I was like, “This is the sickest thing ever. This is so cool. Cars can definitely not be cooler than this.” I remember working, it was my first job ever, and I remember the way we cleaned the kitchen was because there was so much grease from all the fried chicken. You'd have to flood the back with a hose, just like a garden hose, and we'd walk around in an inch of just water that was soaking up grease. And then they would open up the airtight hatch door in the back of where the alleys and all the grease water would just pour out into the back alley. Just so gross. And then it would just dry there. And the next day, you just see chunks of fat in the street, this is nasty.

After that, I worked at Taco Bell. My first jobs were like fast food type stuff. And then I worked for seven years at a mom and pop hardware store. And that was one of the funniest experiences of my life just because seven years of content, that's a long time to be. Literally, I started when I was like still in high school. And then I left just after art school. So, yeah, I was – yeah man, we're talking a good seven years of just – you ever see that movie Waiting?

[00:35:27] NorCal: Yeah, I think so.

[00:35:29] RT: Ryan Reynolds in a restaurant, it was a lot like that. There are all these different characters and he thought it was some different Hollywood script, but it was like, these are real people and none of this is made up. That's why when I saw Tiger King for the first time, people were like freaking out, “Do you believe Joe Exotic is a real person?” I grew up around like a hundred of these people. Yes, I can totally – literally, half the people I used to work with at this hardware store were all some kind of Joe Exotic. Maybe they weren't super narcissistic, or whatever. But this sort of, almost like an anime character, they were larger than life in so many ways.

A lot of really funny things happened at that hardware store. There was one guy who used to tell the craziest lies, and they weren't even good ones. You could lie and be like, “My girlfriend. I hung out with her last night.” If you could be like, “Alright, yeah, your girlfriend, okay.” But his lies were like, “The X Games called, and they want me to – but I can’t because I’ve gotta work at the hardware store.” And we're like, “Oh, okay.” If you would just lie, there was a guy who just lie about stuff, he would embellish a story to the nth degree, rather than – he had an operation on his ankle once. And he had a pin or something put into his ankle to help with its movement, and he spun the story as, “I can't take a shower, or my metal legs will rust.” And we were like, “What?” He’s taking a grain of truth and then just going big with it.

Yeah, I worked at this hardware store and I learned a lot of real-world skills, how to fix your sink, install caulking and plumbing, and electrical tape and working on gas grills, like handy stuff. But nothing that would actually advance my art career. To me, that's a whole different life. It's almost like I was a different person. And then I'm reminded of that when I go back home, and the people I talk to, it is the whole small-town vibe thing, where you'd go home, and it's the same exact people doing the same exact things. They’re almost like NPCs, “And that’s the town drunkard over there. That guy will sell you magical spells.” It’s very much that, where everyone kind of knows everyone's sort of thing. And I'm trying to think, just before I left, before I came here, to the Pacific Northwest to do the whole full-time art thing, and just before freelance had gotten so busy that it's all I could do back in Michigan, I actually – it was really slow in the beginning. So, I was getting some work from Magic, but it wasn't full time. I still had to subsidize my work.

And so, rather than – I left the hardware store, and I worked for maybe seven, eight months, at a hydroponic shop just before the art thing got really big. So yeah, I spent a little bit of time in the weed industry, which didn't have a huge impact on anything career wise, but it was really funny, spending time with the sort of cannabis community and learning how to essentially build entire growing facilities that will help grow marijuana. I learned a lot about marijuana at the time. It wasn't even medicinal legal in Michigan. There was the medical card situation and that was starting to get really new. I think, now, it is just recreational – I think it's totally fine now. It's still somewhat taboo to some people, but for the most part, it's just kind, “Oh, going to 7/11. I’ll take one marijuana please.” 

Yeah, my initial experience with that was, I met the pop community and it was one of the most competitive, cutthroat, dick measuring experiences ever, where it's just everyone's like, “My butt's thicker than your butt, bro. I can make more money than you can, bro.” I was like, “This is weird. This feels like I’m watching Biodome or something with Pauly Shore. This is so weird.” It was fun though. It was a cool experience. A lot of really nice people I got to meet. But yeah, I did a few different things that had nothing to do with art, and working for a big Fortune 500 company. It was just very blue-collar type of work. And then eventually, everything fell into line and I started doing the whole art thing. But I remember before that time came, if you mentioned art to – I guess we could just call the non-art people, like muggles, right? If you mentioned you're doing art to muggles, they're going to be, “What do you really do for money?” So, for the longest time, people were just, “Oh, that's rowdy. He does art. But he also has to work here because he doesn't actually make money.” 

So, for the longest time, art was just kind of – people stuck their noses up to it, especially where I grew up. That was really hard to sell people on the idea of art. Even now, my mom, a common conversation with her and her friends, “How's Robbie doing?” She’ll be, “He’s on the West Coast, doing his thing, doing art.” And they’re just like, “Okay, but for money? What does he do?” Even now, people have no idea what – “When he’s not smoking dope in your basement or whatever, what is he really doing?” Oh, my god, dude. It is fun, whatever. Fun times. Different life though, for sure.

[00:42:19] NorCal: For sure. So, if you were an animal, what would you be and why?

[00:42:23] RT: I should have thought more about this one. Some kind of apex predator might be cool. Maybe a big cat or something. I'm a big sucker for tasteful and elegant designs. And for me, I feel the lions, just a big cat, like a panther. Maybe a panther. A sex panther, like Anchorman, “90% of time works everytime,” or whatever. I don't know. I find just big cats that are just so aesthetically pleasing and they really are this sort of beautiful sight to behold and I would definitely be a predator versus prey. Cute and harmless and endearing as like adorable prey can be, I don't know. I don't think that's a survival thing either. I’ve always just found them interesting. This year, especially, this is the year of the tiger. Every time my feed is filled with some sort of tiger themed artwork, I just like stare at it because I just find them awesome. I think that'd be why initially I was interested in what was it, Tiger King, even though it's not really about tigers. It's about crazy people. I was like, “Oh, tigers. That’s cool.” And I watched it and I was like, “Oh, my god. These are people. These people are real.” I think probably panthers. 

[00:44:07] NorCal: It's a good one. Got it. What's your favorite food?

[00:44:09] RT: Dude, do don't do this to me, man. I've too many for you, foods, dude. I'm a huge food person. Actually, real quick, I just want to add that I actually do have a plan if the art thing completely goes tits up to just start a food truck business. And that's not a joke. It's not the most thought out plan, but I've already drawn out what the food truck would look. I just have to figure out the exact themed food for it. Probably like a huge thing because I'm a sampler type guy who will – if I’m going somewhere. I love the social aspect of eating food with people which is why when lock down got a little eased, I was immediately hitting people up, “We're going here, right?” Immediately, because I miss the social element, so much of like shared dishes, whether it's a cheese plate or an Ethiopian platter, whatever it can be. I love sampling different flavors and dipping things in other things.

Maybe that's the creative person inside of me, who just, as a concept artist, I've had to iterate on ideas so much and do very – just sheets and sheets of variations of designs and designs similar to spices and flavors. It's basically infinite combinations, almost like math, where these numbers could seemingly be endless. And in the same way with food, you combine this, combine that and then you top this under that, and that creates a different flavor or texture. So, I kind of think of – I guess, Culinary Arts, very much as art. Presentation is another aspect of that, that's really cool. But I don't know. I think if I had to choose an absolute favorite, that's tough man. Because the whole flavor of the week saying, it's like flavor of the hour for me, man. I tend to gravitate towards things that have more spice, though. So, it might be either Ethiopian or Indian food, honestly. But Mexican is really good for this reason.

[00:46:31] NorCal: What are you getting for lunch today?

[00:46:32] RT: Probably Mexican. We could just go with Mexican. I mean, I don't live in California. But whenever I visit, LA's food is so good. The Mexican food especially is just fantastic. I think, probably Mexican food, honestly. I think more so than Indian because I think about how many times I've had it and like in what context. It's not as communal per se, in some ways. The experience which, it doesn't get docked points for that. But in terms of flavor, the only downside is that Indian food can be so strong that it can punish you in ways, for me, it can punish my body in ways that Mexican food can't or has never done so. It's almost this love, hate thing where it's, you want to call Indian food the MVP, but Indian food will abuse you like a bad spouse or something. It's this like love, hate thing where it’s like, “I thought you loved me. I love you.” Whereas Mexican food, Mexican food has always been kind of like, “Yeah, it's a little hot, but whatever.” I've never been like, “I can't come into work today because of Mexican food.” But Indian food, not so much.

[00:47:57] NorCal: True. I can see that. I haven't had like, usually if you get something spicy Mexican, you’re like, “It’s spicy, but I can handle this.” 

[00:48:07] RT: Indian food can just straight up lay you out convincingly. The other thing is I have a huge sweet tooth. I don't know where you sit on this. Once that sugar gets up inside of me, I'm just useless basically. The sugar takes hold, like the demon that it is, and then I'm basically sacrificing children or whatever, just for that hit, that little rush of sugar. Do you have a favorite food?

[00:48:38] NorCal: Yeah, I love Mexican food. I grew up in Southern California and just yeah, I can do it every meal, every day.

[00:48:47] RT: It hits so much different. In California, it's just the real deal. I don't know. We don't really have good Italian food here. But I was just in New York City for the NFT thing, and I was definitely in little Italy, I was like, “This is Italian food.” And similarly, when you go to California and I imagine actually Mexico, this is Mexican food. Even if I've had some really good somewhere else, every time I go to LA, I’m like, “No, never mind. This is it, right here.” Very true.

[00:49:29] NorCal: Might throw you off with this one, maybe. Manual or dual clutch?

[00:49:33] RT: Manual, dude. All day, dude. All day. The car I have now, I told you, I had showed you pictures at this point, back C7 Corvette and it's not – the automatic has that, I think it's dual clutch. But the paddle shifting experience. Even if I had a mid-engine, wedge shaped, Italian supercar, I would still want it to be a gated transmission. I understand the whole appeal and the efficiency of a dual clutch, paddle shifting. The whole like F1 formula. It does perform better. But my initial experience, what stopped me from getting a Tesla and made me decide to go with a loud clunky American VA, with a manual stick, was like just the analog experience. I worry that the more refined a piece of technology gets, and if we go as refined as no transmission, no gearing, it's all just torque from a battery. I feel I would lose that initial tactile, that visceral analog experience, and they might end up feeling I'm driving an appliance, or a cell phone, or something, versus a car.

My Corvette, it's got this big old x pipe exhaust. It's got aftermarket headers. It's got a supercharger. I deleted the catalytic converters, so you're just left with this raw, almost right pipe experience, and it's just loud and it's verbally and it pops. Every time you accelerate, you can just feel the cabin shaking from the engine and the exhaust. It's just such a raw visceral experience, and you feel really connected with the car. You literally cannot ignore the car. It's yelling at you every time you try to drive it. I don't know, I like to feel connected. It’s almost kind of the Navi in Avatar when they plug into their space horses or whatever those things are called, or the Banshees. Whereas with a super refined, oh my god, you can't even tell the car is driving. Yeah, for me, part of the experience is hearing the exhaust and feeling the shifts. I have such a memory as a kid of growing up around, especially in Detroit, a lot of American muscle cars. And that's not even my favorite type of car. I prefer, Italian exotic. But I don't know, I want an analog experience, that's why I want the manual, even though I could have probably gotten a C8, and it would have been awesome. And I'm not saying I wouldn't own one. If someone presents me with a sick McLaren or something, and it's dual clutch. I'm not going to be like, “Uh, get away from me.” Amazing car that is awesome, no. I don't know. I had to make a decision. I got to have a proper analog sports car, old school, in a way.

[00:53:01] NorCal: I totally get it. There's something about being able to shift through the gears, take it up as high as you want. There's something to it. I'm not going to lie. I got a Volkswagen Golf that I love. It's a dual clutch though, because I drove the GTI, and I was, “I'm not a fan of this. I'm not a fan of this stick shift that they got in here.” I think I’m going to go with the dual clutch because I just don't feel good.

[00:53:27] RT: What year is it? 

[00:53:30] NorCal: I have a 2016 Golf R.

[00:53:32] RT: I'm googling this, because I want to see where that stick sits in the cabin. It's kind of tall looking, right?

[00:53:41] NorCal: Yeah, it's a little bit. I didn't like the clutch on it. I don't know, on the GTI. And that was going to be the same that was going to be in the R, and I was just like, “I'm just going to go with the dual clutch.”

[00:53:52] RT: I mean, if that's what you gotta do, it's the right call. I feel I've seen some really oddly located sticks before in cars that literally – I love the Porsche Carrera GT. I love that car, especially the exhaust note is insanely cool. That high revving instance of V10. But where they put that knob? If you just look up the images, I'm looking right now, that stick, does not look it would be in a good place. It's kind of upper middle of the dashboard. I think I would hate that. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's in a perfect spot, maybe you just get used to it. But I almost would go with a different car. As amazing as that car is just because of the stick shift, which sounds like was the case with you in the GTI.

[00:54:51] NorCal: Yeah, for me at least. But yeah, hey, I would love to get a Porsche stick. 

[00:55:03] RT: What your sort of running list? I mean, we can go crazy with it, or we could go realistic with it, too. If you want.

[00:55:16] NorCal: I always thought, you know, everyone hated those ’01 through ’05, ’06 Porsches with the cracked egg headlights. I was like, “You know what, you can pick up a turbo not too badly priced.” I mean they've started to go up in value recently, but one of those stick shifts would be kind of fun, because I mean, you get a lot of performance for your money there. I have a funny dream of having a Porsche Speedster, a new one with a six speed. That'd be fun.

[00:55:49] RT: Yeah. I think for me, the two cars that I would seriously look at, one of them has gone up a lot in value and that's the Viper ACR. I'm not a fan of cars that have giant planet size wings with their own gravitational poles. But something about it on the Viper ACR works. It's almost it doesn't exist in the ZR1 Corvette, has a really big wing on it. But it's not big enough that it's self-aware big. It's just kind of big and I don't like it personally. I prefer a more subtle spoiler or no spoiler, or an active arrow spoiler that will fall back into the car, right? This is the most comically oversized wing and a car that I'm like, it works. And the Viper ACR is its own weird niche. They were a limited production thing. Now, because they're more of a collectible, they've gone up so much in value. They're basically supercar prices.

I think a lot of them sit around the 180 to 200k range, which is basically an entry level supercar. I don't know, Viper is its own kind of unique platform. It's not really a sports car. It's not really a muscle car. It's not really a supercar. It's kind of its own thing and I've always said that about Viper. And then the other one is, recently McLaren’s have really grown on me. I used to not be a McLaren guy at all. I would just say, I just wanted events to work. Even though they drive like tractors, because they are tractors, basically. The McLaren's though, in the last year, I would say, I've really come to appreciate them, and what they can do. I think the McLaren 720S is a really – it packs so much of the track enthusiast performance, but it's tied up in a pleasant almost grand touring looking car. It doesn't quite rise to the line of luxury performance, where it's not stale, and understated. I don't know. It's not understated, but it isn't over the top either. It's just elegant, I guess, and it can be very aggressive. So, I don't know. I think yeah, McLaren 720S or an ACR, a Viper ACR, I think those were my two top picks for cars, if I could get anything right now. But I can't afford either one of those for now. So, maybe later, or maybe if something awesome happens this year, I don't know. We’ll see.

[00:58:38] NorCal: What's the best advice you've been given?

[00:58:40] RT: In general? I don't think this was the exact quote, but it's along the lines of this is basically just – it’s something along the lines of just do what you want to do, if you want to do it, otherwise, what's the point of doing it? Which basically means, you're weighing the pros and cons of let's say a new job or a life path and so many pros. But it won't actually make you happy. Just don't do it. It's so difficult. I think there's all kinds of moments where life will present itself with an opportunity, and you’ll pro and cons list-it with your friends. Or sometimes you'll just make a list of pros and you'll say them over and over and over again to yourself because really, what you're doing is trying to convince yourself. But then, all it takes is that one outsider perspective, where they go, “Do you actually want to do this?” And then when you just kind of have to say out loud, “No”, then the next response from the other person is like, “Then don't.”

It's not as hard as you might think. Yeah, it's crazy, the things that you might have to say no to sometimes, or the things you have to say yes to, but really, in the end, I see so many – I could distill it to more art advice, but I feel this falls into any category in life, is like, let's say you want to be – there’s a perceived hierarchy or I guess perceived stepping stone process of jobs within the artist career to a lot of artists, that will eventually lead to the place that will truly fulfill you. But there's this invisible sort of ladder that people think they need to climb or this path, they think they need to jump across.

A good example, I guess you could kind of lump it in there with paying your dues. But a good example is when I got started in tabletop RPGs, I was in Indianapolis at this thing called Gen Con, which is an RPG convention, and it was maybe a three-hour drive from Michigan. So, it wasn't a big trek for me. But I showed up there, I talked to a bunch of companies, including Wizards of the Coast. I talked to a bunch of people, and they all wanted to work with me.

Now, most people would assume, because sort of the “end goal” at the time, where you inevitably want to end up eventually, is Wizards of the Coast. But usually, the rumor is, before you can do that, you gotta do these other clients first, you gotta pay your dues. Stepping stone, right? But when I talked to them, because of a mixture of marketing, and interaction, and the portfolio itself, which is what most of this comes down to, all three options presented themselves. It wasn't one or the other, or one in front of the other. And immediately, I was like, “Oh, you don't have to do things one particular way. There isn't a linear path to anything per se.” Sometimes yes, there is a specific stepping stone process or an order of events that need to happen. But sometimes you can just go for the thing. If it makes sense, and it works, and it lines up, great. The stars have aligned. It's not always the case.

But I think a lot of people, they see that that “stepping stone” process and they think, “This is how it has to be. Even if I want to, eventually, be known as the artist that does character designs, I feel like what will make me marketable, and I feel like what will get me work, required work to get to that end goal, I'm going to have to fill up my portfolio with a bunch of stuff that doesn't actually interest me, but will get me work that will lead to that other thing.” So, what do people do? If you want to be a character designer, they'll put environments and weapons and props and things that aren't character focused in their portfolio. And a lot of times they'll just get hired to do the other thing that they don't actually care about.

It's kind of presenting a client with a sheet of ideas, and only one of them you're actually excited about but the other four you put in there, just to be like, “Look, I'm worth the money.” And then they're going to choose one of the other ones that you – if you had just stuck with the thing you wanted to do, chances are you would have been hired to do that one thing, even if it feels less likely of a possibility. That's a good example of doing a thing that doesn't actually enrich your life. It doesn't actually make you happy. It doesn't satisfy you in some way. Because you feel like you have to. It's like, really the answer is, just don't do it. If you want to do characters, just do characters. Don't load the portfolio up with a bunch of other stuff. Just do what you want to do, and you'll be happy. Success doesn't look the same for everyone. So, it might not unfold, and net you the exact returns that you thought in the same way you thought would happen. But rarely does life ever work out that way anyway, right? So yeah, if you want to do something, do it. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. It seems pretty obvious, right?

[01:04:25] NorCal: True. It seems, but so many people do think I need to do the dues. I need to do this, instead of just going for it. 

[01:04:33] RT: That’s not to say that you don't need to in some cases, but to think in just black and white terms, it's only this way and not the other way. It's no, that is so incorrect. There are so many ways to do one thing, or everything. I don't know, don't think so black and white. Expand the possibilities in your mind.

[01:05:00] NorCal: Do you have any advice for artists joining the NFT space?

[01:05:03] RT: I mean, this kind of falls along the lines of what we just talked about, and some really good advice I got from my buddy, his artwork, Victor Mascara, who I've known – he’s done well in the space, and he's done a lot of amazing work, I mean, in and outside of the space. Honestly, Victor's a brilliant artist, but – and I've known him for maybe 10 years now. And Victor, when I first started getting into this around February, he basically told me because at the time, it was mostly 3D people. At the time, it was just one on one sales, and there was maybe, definitely less than 100, maybe 50 artists, I would say, maybe, who were really known in the space and kind of it for the space. There wasn't this sea of people and projects and communities. It was literally just a few artists, and a lot of them were 3D focused. My work is never that. My work is very anime, manga, traditional comic book inspired stuff. Victor's is similar to that, too. Victor just said, “Dude, I'm really happy that you're here. Because we don't have a lot of people do your aesthetic, at all. We need more 2D illustration guys like yourself. If I can give you one piece of advice, don't change your style. Do not change for the trends. Just do you and you'll stand out, and you'll do just fine.”

That’s kind of what my brain is built on, anyway, aesthetically. My look, my portfolio very much does come from me, basically, sort of being dissatisfied with my body of work back in, more or so, 2015, almost 2016. I just kind of said, I'm not going to do work that will get me hired anymore. I'm just going to do work that I enjoy. And funnily enough, it ended up being the thing that did get me hired now. It’s all I get hired to do. But it took basically pushing back against the concept to remain marketable and relevant, you have to do things this specific way. And, yeah, that was what he told me, “Don't change, don't lose your voice and all of this. You can participate in trends, to a degree, but just don't become a different artist. Remain yourself, don't change.” He was right. Now, because of how different my work looks than most of what sells in the space, that is what creates my worth, essentially, is being my own artist. I haven't forgotten myself and all this, I guess. And that's what I would tell most people who are looking to jump into as well. You see what sells, you see what is considered popular, but trends usually have an expiration date. And your legacy, the thing that you're going to leave behind that has your name, forever tied to it, it should be something that you are proud of, not something you felt you had to do, because of some sort of pressure or expectation, and those trends change. The thing that you enjoy doing might not be popular now, but it could be popular later.

I mean, really, at the end of the day, it goes back to the thing that you were saying before, which is if you don't actually enjoy doing the thing, then what is the point in the first place? So, if you enjoy something, and that is who you are, as an artist, just remain true to that vision, don't change for anyone, and just enjoy the work you're doing. A lot of times, that will come off as genuine anyway. The stuff that is sort of curated to an audience or like is pandering, it doesn't really read as sincere most of the time, because it isn't. I don't think it'll resonate with people anyway. You're better off just doing your own thing. Even if it's not super successful, at least you get to say you did something that you're proud of. Yeah, so there you go. That's my advice. 

[01:09:22] NorCal: Do you have any questions for me?

[01:09:24] RT: Let's see, we talked about cars, we talked about food. I do have a question, and you kind of answered it, I think once, kind of briefly in a message. But I'm curious, what do you, as a collector, look for in terms of art? Is there a particular body of work or style that you enjoy? Is it all just speculative investing? Is it a bit of both? I don't know. I've seen your portfolio is varied. So, it seems you do have somewhat broad tastes of art, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.

[01:09:59] NorCal: Man, specific artwork, yes, I do like to have a diversified portfolio, I guess you could call it that. Because I do like the 2D illustration. I enjoy the 3D. I like the photography. I don't want to limit myself, even though I feel I currently have the name for a photography collector. But I still have all that other work in there. I mean, I started –

[01:10:29] RT: Wait. What do you mean you have a name for the photography collection?

[01:10:34] NorCal: I get hit up a lot by photographers. I think it's because I mean, I have a lot of genesis from different photographers in the space, and I feel they're the ones that I interact with the most currently. So, I feel that's where people assume I collect the most. But I started off collecting illustration work. Some of my first work is from James White, or Griff Crypto. Matt Griffin. So that's initially, where I started, was with those guys. Oh, and Chris Skinner. And then I also did some Pixel Art. I love Pixel Art, too.

[01:11:14] RT: Pixel Art is special, I think. That's its own special sort of thing.

[01:11:18] NorCal: Yeah, like with Genuine Human, Jay, he has some good work that I picked up a few pieces. I don't know specifically. Initially, I was kind of doing, I was going with colors ‘80s, ‘90s, that bright kind of aesthetic.

[01:11:35] RT: Yeah, like your avatar. That whole synth wave, sort of thing.

[01:11:41] NorCal: That was from Signal Noise. I bought that one of one. I was like, “You know what, I'm going to use this as my profile picture, because it's cool. It's unique. It's a Lambo going towards the sun.”

[01:11:52] RT: Hell, yeah, dude.

[01:11:54] NorCal: I guess for me, it's just what will hit me. I see so much art that it has to stand out to me, I guess. It has to pop. And then if it pops in, I can go look at it and I’m like, “Okay, this is cool.” Other than that, I want to make sure the artist is around long term, has a decent portfolio.

[01:12:17] RT: I mean, this is something that we were talking about, I guess behind the stage. It's just investing in people, rather than just a product or a project. It's not to say things have to be, you know, like, “I can’t buy if they're not fully doxxed,” or whatever. That's not what that means. Just understand who you're backing basically. And yeah, like you were saying, is the artist going to be around for a while? What have they done maybe outside of the space or prior? These things would affect my – if I was a collector. I think I’d definitely weigh that out in my head a lot, too. 

[01:12:54] NorCal: Yeah. I mean, it makes me nervous. I've seen it on, even on SuperRare, someone was asking me, “Hey, what do you think about this?” And I'm like, “Well, I can't find a portfolio on there on them. So, it makes me a little nervous.” That makes me nervous. And I guess, if the pricing is lower than I'm willing to maybe take a risk, but when it starts getting higher, and you're like, “Wait, I can't find a portfolio.” I'm probably just going to pass even though I the work.

[01:13:28] RT: Do you have any particular – okay, here's a two-part question. What is the grail piece that you want to have that you don't? And then is there a particular piece that you do currently possess that you're like, “This is my most prized one, like I love this one. This is my favorite.”?

[01:13:50] NorCal: That's a hard one. That’s way too hard.

[01:13:54] RT: Maybe top three years or something. I mean, if you can't decide completely, just like, “I really this one.” The bangers, I guess.

[01:14:01] NorCal: I don't know, because I guess the investing kind of comes into play when I think about a grail piece. Those grail pieces that people would consider top, those are going for several 100 ETH, or up there. And personally, myself, I'm I don't have that kind of ETH to buy something that, and how much can that appreciate in value anyways. And I guess it can go up a lot more than you realize. So, it's hard for me to say grail piece because l like to, I guess, go with smaller artists, in that sense. Not necessarily smaller, but not considered grail.

[01:14:47] RT: Well, maybe are there any – maybe not, when I say grail, maybe I should reword this. There are ones that maybe the space would consider, but I guess is there something out there from someone that you really want, that you just don't have yet? But you could see yourself getting, like in a realist fashion? Not like, “If only I was a billionaire.”

[01:15:13] NorCal: Man, nothing right now off the top of my head stands out. Shoot, nothing stands out. But I can go on to the second part of this question. It's funny. So, this whole space kind of makes me – because we're looking at the metaverse. We're looking at doing things virtually, less human interaction. And there's a piece from Brendan North, photography piece, artist that has these ladies on the side of the pool with their VR headsets on and then this couple that is falling into the pool and kissing, like, enjoying life. So, that is a piece I really like because it makes me at least like, okay, we are – enjoy the people you have, enjoy the people around you. Don't get caught up in the metaverse type thing is what I get out of it. That's a piece that I really like.

[01:16:20] RT: Yeah, that's cool. I think people should – it's really interesting when I talk to people about what they experience and what interests them about art. It's always different. There might be similarities, but art really is the sort of interpretive, unique experience for each person in their own way. And even if you paint the most obvious, straightforward thing that can still be interpreted in a different way from a different person. It almost always is every time. I mean, that's an interesting explanation and it makes total sense. Art in the end, just like music, it's subjective and it just either, I guess stimulates your neurology or it doesn't.

Yeah, that's cool. I'm always curious. I don't really – unlike early, early days, last year, I haven’t been able to have a lot of these conversations with collectors to kind of see – not that I even really considered you a collector, but you do collect. I don't want to put people in bottles or like categories. It's a thing you happen to do. I mean, I guess I was just curious to see where your brain was at when it comes to that kind of thing. It's different for everyone, it seems like. And there are some people where I’m like, “This has to be money laundering,” or, “This has to be just speculative investment and nothing else.” I think we've all seen a few things in the space where you’re like, “I'm not sure what's going on there. But I have theories. And none of them have to do with the art.” Put it that way.

[01:18:16] NorCal: Yes, I can see that on some things as well, for sure.

[01:18:19] RT: That's cool, though. Right on, man. I have more food questions, but I don't really – I feel it’s just going to end the same way where it’s like I just like Mexican food. 

[01:18:34] NorCal: Dude, I love good food. I’m going to lie. I love some good food. I will put out some money for good food.

[01:18:41] RT: Dude, same. I was working with Dead Mouse in Miami before – this is not Basel. This is a week before NFT New York City. I’ve never been to Miami. And I spent so much goddamn money on food, and it was amazing. But it was really expensive. But I was also like, “You know what, if you're not going to cheap out on something, it should be food.” Because literally, you're putting it into your body. Yeah, don't skimp out on food. I think as an adult, especially, you appreciate food because I know when I was a kid, I would just inhale stuff. I didn’t even give it a second thought. I would just eat it and that was that.

Now, I don't know how I became such a snob, but every time a food comes up, I want it to be this culinary experience with textures and flavors and then ambience. It's a whole thing and I mean, yeah, you do end up paying a little bit more, but good food is good food and it's pretty much every time you finish it, you and everybody else, you kind of feel awful and you're all slouched over. But you're like, “It was so worth it.”

[01:20:02] NorCal: There's something to that. I mean, the good food experiences I've had I remember them.

[01:20:09] RT: Yeah, dude. In Miami there was this place called Papi’s Steakhouse, and it was like, everyone there looked like a GTA character. First of all, it's basically Miami, I guess. It was like a Cuban Steakhouse, almost, but it wasn't just a steakhouse. All the waiters were super well-dressed, every presentation, every plate was amazing. And they never just brought your food out. They would dance for you and cut it in front of you, and all this stuff. And Papi would come out with his over the top extravagant suit looking a game character from GTA or something. And he's like, “Oh, you're beautiful. Welcome to my club.” And we're just like, “Oh, my God.” It is kind of like you were eating at a club. You're having steak dinner in the middle of a strip club or something. It was absurd, very Miami.

There was one dish that they bring out to you, it’s like pastrami, and it's cut and placed onto this wooden board, a round board, like a platter. And they cover the platter in a glass dome, and then they pump the dome full of smoke. So, it's this like hidden smoke glass apparatus, and they bring it out and they lift the apparatus, and then all this smoke, flows out and you get blinded for a second, and then when the smoke clears, there's a beautifully cut pieces of caramelized buttery, super rare pastrami meat, with this fancy sauce. They bring it out to you, and the music plays and they bring it out to you and people are clapping. Everyone gets into it, too. And you're just this is an experience. This isn't just food. This is like, I'm going to remember this. And then you look at the bill and you're, “I'm definitely going to remember this.” But you know what, if I ate that every day, I would be broke at this point. It's definitely a treat. It's just the thing you do, and you do it only when you're with friends. And yeah, it's memorable and it's usually just food. I don't really splurge on anything else. I'll go hard on food, for sure.

[01:22:35] NorCal: Cool.

[01:22:39] RT: I think that about wraps it up, for me, man.

[01:22:41] NorCal: I think that's it. That was a great show. Thank you so much, Robbie.

[01:22:45] RT: Yeah, thanks for bringing me on. We kind of just got connected not too long ago, but I've enjoyed our conversations so far. I'm definitely going to keep my eye on the show and see who else you got on here, and it's been really fun, thanks for having me on.

[01:23:00] NorCal: Thanks. Yeah. You have a good day.

[01:23:02] RT: Yeah, likewise. See you.

[01:23:05] NorCal: Bye.

[END]