Coffee & Career Hour
A genuine & informative podcast on all things career - hosted by two career counselors and friends. From practical strategies to motivational & reflective content, this podcast is here to empower and guide you to find meaningful work, make informed career decisions, and reach your full potential. So, grab a cup of coffee and join in for some career talk.
Coffee & Career Hour
Exploring the Path to Graduate School: Benefits, Costs, and Beyond
Are you ready to venture into the world of graduate school but are unsure if it's the right path for you? In our latest Coffee and Career Hour episode, we discuss exploring graduate programs and how they may align with your career goals. We offer personal insights and share how graduate school can impact your career trajectory, lifestyle, relationships, and finances.
As we navigate this journey together, we'll uncover the benefits and costs of graduate programs - from the career advancement opportunities and potentially increased income to the focus of a master's degree versus bachelor's. Yet, we won't sugarcoat the importance of real-life work experience, which enhances your competitiveness in the candidate pool. We'll also delve into the nitty-gritty of funding your graduate journey and where to seek external funding opportunities. We discuss the impact on your lifestyle, underscoring the importance of self-care and maintaining a balanced life during this demanding period.
Within graduate school, we'll guide you through internships, job prospects, and changes in career development. We share our experiences comparing paid and unpaid internships and help you consider the overall impact a graduate program can have on you. Ultimately, we encourage you to make an informed decision in your career, armed with insights, personal experiences, and a hot cup of coffee.
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All righty.
Speaker 2:Welcome back everyone to Coffee and Career Hour.
Speaker 1:These are your hosts, as always. I'm MJ, I'm Arminay, and what are we talking about today?
Speaker 2:Sounds so dramatic. We are continuing our conversation from last week about graduate school.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness, that is such a huge topic to cover. I'm so glad we're doing two episodes on it.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's a big topic and it's funny enough we're talking about it here and it's also happening in our day jobs at UCLA's Career Center, because students are preparing to apply to grad programs in the fall October. November is going to be really heavy on graduate applications.
Speaker 1:It's an exciting time because new students are starting like the academic year right, like first years. But it's also exciting for those who are like juniors and seniors, who are thinking right not only juniors and seniors, but like primarily, they're the upper classmen who are thinking about like what to do after school, like after college and their undergrad degree and thinking about grad school. It's an interesting time really to see. It's both two sides of the coin kind of you see in our day to day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's fun. It's definitely fun times for us. The two of us are really excited to talk about grad school because we both loved our grad programs. We talked about it last week. If you haven't heard our episode last week, definitely check it out, because that's where we kind of share some of our personal experiences interviewing for graduate school and what that was like for us. But I know we both loved our programs so I think that's why we get excited when we talk about grad school.
Speaker 1:I love. I'm like the smile on my face, I'm just remembering, like the people in grad school who mentored me and who continue to mentor. It's just an amazing time where you really like find who you are. And I mean, everybody's experience is different, but for me I really found who MJ was and my calling and my passion and my why really in my life and what I want to do in my career. So it's just a very heartwarming time for me.
Speaker 2:It is and I love that. So we talked a lot about general graduate applications last time finding your why for going to graduate school, what kind of grad programs there are, as well as the application process. So today we want to talk a little bit more about things to consider when you're applying to grad school and beyond.
Speaker 1:Yeah, kind of like the decision making process of like, okay, great, now I kind of know like a little bit of the foundation of research, like what it is, what programs there are. What I kind of need Now it's more of the asking yourself do we want to pursue graduate, a graduate program? Right, and what that looks like for you and your career goals, your aspirations and where you want to be in a few years time.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So some things that we encourage you to think about if you're considering grad school is your individual timeline. So what that means is really kind of aligning that with your personal life. What does that look like if you're currently working and you're going to go back to school? Do you need to leave your job? Do you have other personal responsibilities? How long can you commit to graduate school? Some grad programs are one year, some are two years, some are longer, like if you're going into a PhD program or so. Absolutely so, depending on your timeline, that could also determine what type of graduate program you might want to attend. But really considering that and how your life might change in those few years.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I 100% agree, and I also will add it also looks like what do you want to do in your career, right?
Speaker 1:And how does this program add to that, whether that be for an opportunity at advancing in positions or moving up the leadership ladder, for example, or that's going into a completely different direction than what you're currently working in right now, right, how can this program, this advanced degree, in a way support you in all of your career aspirations and where you want to be and what that looks like? And these two things of what Arminay is really talking about and considering your current life and where you want to be and what I'm talking about and like, how will this program add to my why in my career really go hand in hand. But there's so many things to kind of consider into a graduate program because it's not like a. It's the consideration very similar to how you would take a job, right, but this has really like a long life lasting impact on you and there's so much heavier pros and cons that we kind of want to think about and we're going to kind of cover some of those today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. So let's start with the benefits of a grad program.
Speaker 1:There are so many. There are so many benefits. I'm like, oh, I love my program, you loved your program, there are so many benefits. The smile on our faces should really be an example of that. A graduate program can prepare you for exactly what it is that you want to do, right? So Arminay and I both were trained as counselors within higher education. Arminay has more of a specialization within higher and I have more of a general counseling, but we both were prepared the kind of the same right. So it allowed us to really align our academic background in our master's degrees with what we do on a daily basis, right? So that's a very concrete example of one benefit where, if you could see the passion that we really act on in our jobs, that is one of the most benefits, because we're so fulfilled within our careers in our current eight to five or office job right Within higher ed, but also outside of our lives, because we kind of carry that education beyond what we do on a day to day basis.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think for the two of us, the reason those are reasons why we loved our grad program, but also we going in also realized some of the other benefits, which are you're like. One of them is you're more competitive when you're applying to jobs once you graduate with a master's or doctorate degree, and so there might be positions that maybe say recommended master's degree, but you know it's okay if you have a bachelor's degree and so your many different applicants are going to be applying and there will be folks who will have a bachelor's that apply. You're going to stand out amongst those candidates if you have a master's degree.
Speaker 2:His bachelor's degrees are becoming more of a baseline for jobs these days, which is unfortunate, really right, because college education and access to education isn't always available to everyone. But back in the day a bachelor's degree did hold more weight and actually majority of folks had high school diplomas and were able to get some entry level positions and bachelor's degrees stood out more. Now it's actually bachelor's degrees are kind of more on that entry level and when you're applying for jobs and those with the master's degree, even when the job description doesn't require a master's degree, those with the master's degree definitely are holding more weight in those applications.
Speaker 1:Yes, your level of education does really give you a benefit into the candidacy and how competitive your application and your experiences among other candidates, depending on the role. I would say that that really does depend on what the requirements look like on the job, if a certain level of education is required or not required, to what that looks like. But Arminay tell us a little bit about education in the workforce, but specifically looking at jobs that require a master's degree, which is one of our graduate programs, or higher, which is more of a doctoral Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:So there's been some research done by Georgetown University at their Center for Education and Workforce and they found that this is back in 2020, so just about three years ago. They found that 65% of jobs at that time required some form of higher education, so that meant either some level of college, an associate's degree, bachelor's degree or a graduate degree. But then, from that 65%, 11% of jobs specifically required a graduate degree, so master's, or higher.
Speaker 1:That is insane. That is insane because I'm thinking about in 2020 and 2020. We're all in the pandemic and we did see this jump in education in 2020, and even now, post pandemic, a lot of individuals are deciding to go back to school more than before the pandemic. Yeah, that's crazy.
Speaker 2:I think the pandemic really shifted how we see work in the US and there was there was a great resignation that was happening right In many different industries. People were realizing they weren't fulfilled in their work. Their company values it in a line with their own. Spending more time at home with family shifted maybe people's perspective on what their work identity was. So I think that's where the great resignation came from. But yeah, and with that that led to more people enrolling in school, going back to school to either finish a degree they never finished or get a higher degree because they were pivoting in their careers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course. So Armini was talking about 11%. Right in 2020, 11% of jobs were requiring a graduate degree. So out of in 2020, that 11% we're looking at I'm sorry, the whole 65% we're looking there. So around in 2020. 165 million jobs, that's insane.
Speaker 2:It almost sounds unbelievable because you know what we were going through in 2020, but according to the data, there were 165 million jobs in 2020.
Speaker 1:That's bizarre. I'm sure they're like that number isn't as rounded as it sounds, but that concept alone is insane.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So from those 165 million jobs, 18,040,000 jobs required to master's degree or higher. Holy cow, just to put things into perspective, with that 11%, that's insane.
Speaker 1:That is insane. Wow, 18 million of 40,000.
Speaker 2:Yeah, See, we did the research before the podcast. But we're like hearing ourselves talk about these numbers and we're still shocked because it is a lot. It is a lot and if we think about how it used to be in the past, like with bachelor's degrees holding more weight, this is clear representation that master's degrees are just holding more and more weight these days.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I know, with talking about the research and things like that, there was an article posted in 2018 by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics and they were talking about how employment, especially with, like, a master's degree level right, the level of occupations is also expected to grow about 17%. And I mentioned in 2018, meaning they were doing this research, starting in 2016 and were projecting 10 years from then, so into 2026, which is in three years from now, right? So think about, within those 10 years, master's level of education and wanting that employment is growing about 17%. That's almost a quarter of the way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. There is so many more jobs wanting and that's the fastest of any education level compared to jobs who that require associate's degree, bachelor's degree, high school diploma or anything else. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well like and then taking it back a little bit into perspective, right, master's degrees and let's specifically just talk about a master's degree and we can generalize graduate programs as well. But remember that a bachelor's degree is focused on a specialized area, but you're also developing a broader level of skill sets. Right, you're exposed to much more than in a master's degree, because when you're doing a graduate level program, such as a master's or a doctorate degree, it's way more narrow in the area of studies. You're hyper focused on a specific topic in academia, where you're trained in that area. So, from what we're reading and hearing, it sounds like there's more specialized jobs out there. Right, requiring individuals who are qualified and specialized in these particular roles to and industries.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So those are some with that data supporting the idea that one of the benefits of a graduate program is that you become more competitive as a candidate for job applications. You have more of a diverse range of applications postings that you can apply to, because you could apply to those that require a master's degree or you could apply to those that don't require it, but that makes gives you more of an edge with the other applicants, right. So that's one benefit as you become more competitive with another benefit I'm Jay.
Speaker 1:So I briefly mentioned this, but you definitely have. So, with the competitiveness thinking about obtaining a graduate degree, let's think about, let's say, in our current roles right, and anybody's current role that they're in, let's say, you obtain a master's degree or doctorate degree in that certain area, you need to move up right. You have more opportunity and room for growth in career advancement in your current industry or in the industry in which you pursue that graduate degree right. So, for example, if MJ decided she wanted to go get a doctorate degree in psychology or she wanted to go get a doctorate degree in education or God knows what else I would think of, I have more of an opportunity to grow in my career development, right, and in my career advancement, meaning I'd be available and have the possibility of obtaining higher level of positions compared to the one that I currently have now.
Speaker 2:Definitely, and with that comes getting more pay.
Speaker 1:Oh, it doesn't love that oh all of us.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you could get more pay with an advanced degree by either having a higher position, like MJ was talking about, or it could be that, depending on how the company is structured and functioning at that time, it could be that maybe they're not able to offer you a higher position, but they are able to hire you with an increased salary than those in the same position who don't have an advanced degree.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah. Another thing to think about and we've talked about this is with that responsibility of getting a higher degree. Remember, you are now the specialized person in this area and in this field and in this role.
Speaker 1:So you definitely become the expert in this knowledge, with this too. So you want to think that an opportunity and a benefit here is that you become the person who people go to, who people come to and ask for support or ask for your expertise or some type of experience. And just you know, armin is the person to go to for a career counseling, because she has this certified degree, this higher education degree, in which we can come to. So you definitely expand your knowledge in that way within your studies, but then in the field and what that looks like, you're just the go-to person for that certain area.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it gives you that confidence because you have more in-depth knowledge and understanding. I mean, when I think about my undergrad education and my grad, I did learn a lot in my undergrad. I actually remember feeling the growth when it was happening, but I can't say that it compares to graduate school because grad school was a whole different ballgame, different level of knowledge and coming out of grad school definitely more confident in what I'm doing and what I can offer the world of work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and by the way, I was serious Armin. It is the person to go to for all things career education, career counseling.
Speaker 2:Not just me, also MJ.
Speaker 1:We're so sure.
Speaker 2:With that, and we're talking a lot about growing and gaining knowledge in graduate school, but also you do continue to grow and develop knowledge and the job later on as well. It's not like it ends there, but it does give you that your starting point. You're starting at a deeper level when you enter the workforce with the graduate degree, and so then everything else can be more accelerated as you learn on the job.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree with that for short, because I remember finishing my undergrad degree. I didn't feel as prepared as when I was finishing my grad degree and it could have been for a lot of identity related reasons. It could have also been that we were going into a pandemic. But I know that after my grad program I definitely knew who I was. I knew who I was, I know my value, or I knew and I know my value and what I bring to the table and I was so much more confident in my job search and what I was doing and focused on what I wanted to learn and grow and do in the world. So definitely, I think a grad program we think a grad program really can help you identify and feel more confident and that's what it's all about is for you to feel your best self and for you to feel fulfilled in your career. So graduate programs can definitely do that if you decide to go that route. But guess what? They're really expensive.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, so expensive, so expensive.
Speaker 1:I think my grad degree is the most expensive thing I own. Yeah, well, yeah, yes.
Speaker 2:Well, the good news is that that knowledge you gained can never be taken away from you. Very true, very true. But they are definitely very expensive and, of course, depending on what type of institution you're going from public to private that will have an impact. But just generally speaking, grad programs definitely are expensive. So what are some ways that we can help or people can find funding for a graduate school?
Speaker 1:So there is, I would say, the one that we all kind of hear about, right, and it's very popular in the news, and it's all about student loans and student debt. So loans is what I would say when going to grad school, so as an undergrad, you have much more room for opportunity for support, I would say internally and externally, for things like scholarships, which is another way you can achieve and obtain funding for your graduate studies. But as an undergrad, I feel like that's more accessible For grad students, it's a little more difficult to obtain funding for your program, and it really does depend on what type of program you choose and what type of field as well. There's so many different factors, but the one we hear most about is student loans, right, and there are very different types of loans. So it's important to really understand what type of loans you are agreeing to when saying yes to a graduate program and how to pay for it.
Speaker 1:Some schools I'm going to be talking about public, private research institutions, different things like that also provide financial aid, but it all depends on the financial aid counselor and what that looks like for the independent student, because every person looks very different, right? Not one applicant and candidate looks the same in their financials. So it's something you definitely want to think about and consider with the financial aid counselor and yourself, right? What does that look like for you and your finances before agreeing? But loans would be one of the largest ones, and I did mention scholarships too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and with loans too, think about there's public or federal loans and then private loans, and generally it's known that private loans tend to have higher interest rates and so it's a lot more difficult working with those private companies later on when you have to maybe change the amount you want to pay back Monthly if you want to go on like an income-driven repayment plan and stuff. Those private companies tend to be a lot more difficult to work with than the federal loans because the federal government has those kinds of things in place where you could be on an income-driven plan or something like that. So just things to keep in mind. But everybody's situation is different. So, depending on your own financial situation, we definitely encourage you to consider that when you're thinking about graduate school and what kind of institution you want to go to for grad.
Speaker 1:I would also say with this too no matter if you are a recent graduate from undergrad or a professional who's been in the field 10, 15 plus years, consider your options carefully, because when I went to grad school and this happens to everybody they offer you loans to cover your studies and then guess what?
Speaker 1:They offer you a real nice loan for like personal expenses, and people can get caught up in that and I've seen just from my own personal experience in my network sometimes that backfires very heavily and we don't.
Speaker 1:We don't want you to be stuck in something that you you regret and that looks pretty in the beginning but you pay heavy for at the end because something I didn't really. This is gonna sound a little strange, but as a first gen, I didn't really think about what life after grad school, in terms of paying it back, look like I knew I was had to pay it back and I am paying it back and all of these things to consider right after, after the matter of the fact, but I really wasn't thinking about that in the moment. So for everybody listening who who's like okay, I want to go to grad school, I want to go to grad school, I'll get loans if that's the option for you. I want you to really think about, like what does that look like after two? Because then you have to pay them back right after six months, right now that our student loans will go unfrozen and we're gonna have to start paying them back in October.
Speaker 1:You're gonna need a job, you're gonna need income, right? What does that look like? An income enough to survive, eat, sleep, drink water every day, be happy, right? So for me that looks like paying for the gym and also paying back my loan, car loan, different things like that. So there's so much more to consider than just like the big and pretty shiny things that happened in the beginning.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I definitely agree. I also didn't think about what it was gonna look like paying back my student loans after and I was like, oh great, you know, it's a couple years of grad school plus another six months.
Speaker 2:I'll be fine, right. But that time came by real quick, real quick. I remember when they started contacting me like it's time it's been six months since graduation and I was like already. But and then I had to work with the company. Mine were federal loans too, because what they were asking for was not really realistic with the income that I had. So I did have to work with them to go on an income-driven plan and things like that. But it's a lot of paperwork, it's a lot of making sure you're staying on top of it with the deadlines and communicating with them. But also in general and most of you listening may know this, even with other loans as well when you're paying off a loan, usually that you're paying off the interest rate more so than the principal amount, which is the most painful part, I think, for me in paying off any kind of loan, because it's like the amount you're putting in doesn't even really decrease the principal, it just kind of pays off the interest rate and maybe a little bit of the principal absolutely.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think that goes for like any home car loans, anything like that. We're always paying the interest versus the principal, which sucks. We get stuck for like how many years? And then we're old and you know life happens.
Speaker 2:Okay, this took a dark turn, but the reality is, yeah, it's painful because it's like, okay, I've been paying for how many years and it's like not decreasing, right, that's the annoying part. But you just you know, and then we don't want to discourage anyone from going to graduate school because you can then later. You know, there you find ways if you can, if you're an expert in your field, then you're able to find a solid job and then you can finance things. So there are ways to then pay back those students. But just know that it does, it is, it is a burden on your shoulders, it does go in your credit report and if you don't pay back, that hurts your credit score and things like that so you don't want to kind of you know, regret that graduate degree.
Speaker 2:You don't want it to be a burden on you. You want the graduate degree to be something that like propels you forward in life, not like holds you back because of these loans.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I think our money is absolutely correct. We definitely don't want to discourage you at all. Discourage you at all and you will right your, your graduate degree. That's why it makes you a more competitive candidate, because you're now able to obtain jobs at a higher salary, right, different kinds of opportunities that you weren't able to obtain beforehand, if not advancing your career as well.
Speaker 1:But this also I want to go back to the point of, like, different grad programs cost a different amount, and, whether it be the finance, on how to pay it back by yourself, right. So not every program you have to pay, right. So let's think about, like PhDs, for example. Right, a lot of PhDs are fully funded. Not every PhD is fully funded, and it's not, and maybe they're partially funded, but a lot of PhD programs are fully funded, which means that because they're fully funded, you get paid right, your tuition gets paid, your school gets paid, they give you a little bit more to do to live and survive and breathe and eat calmly, but guess what? You also have to make sure that you're staying on top of that to keep your fully funded PhD and you also have to show that you are a competitive candidate and does definitely deserve right to be fully funded.
Speaker 1:So different programs cost different amounts and every program, no matter if it's a master's degree, it's a pre-professional we're talking about law MBA. Things like that look very different for individuals as well, and all depends on the type of institution and what program you choose. So please don't think that loans are your only way through a graduate program yeah, definitely this.
Speaker 2:Take advantage of the scholarships and fellowship opportunity. So with scholarships, I know that there are, so many. There's like a plethora of scholarships out there you can. One resource I use is scholarshipscom. It has every every type of scholarship on there. You could filter by industry, you could filter by identity, you could filter by interest area, so there's so many different types of scholarships that you can apply to, and that's just one website.
Speaker 1:But usually also the financial aid website on your institution, at your institution, will have a list of scholarships as well, and then some programs individually, like within their department, also have scholarships that yeah the internal scholarships as well, and sometimes you're also granted a scholarship based on your competitiveness of as an applicant, right, which is why we encouraged you in the last and last and last time's episode in the previous episode, to have a higher GPA, right. Higher GPA, it all depends on your work ethic and things like that that qualify you for a scholarship and at a different amount right, and it's depends on how many times I know for sure I'm comfortable to share this with you all. My entire life I've been on the scholarship. So even in grad school, I was granted pretty large scholarships and, like from the department, but also by the, by the president of the university, I was granted scholarships based off of my service to the, to the community and the role that I had as a grad student. So scholarships and fellowships are definitely out there. Please go searching for them.
Speaker 1:Scholarshipscom is great. Guess where else you can search for them on social media. You know how many places post their scholarships or how many a counts there are on individuals promoting and helping other students get through grad school who are also going through grad school themselves. That celebrate, yes, the experience but also share different resources. Right, a resource that I follow on Instagram. Career confidence is a proud sponsor of this. I love sharing her stuff. The account is called Latina grad guide and she definitely posts different scholarship opportunities. I know like this week she posted a ton and she always does that like fellowships, scholarships, things like that. So on social media you can also find different things too yeah, that's amazing what you know.
Speaker 2:This is one one positive of social media. Use it to your advantage. But one other aspect. So we talked about loans, we talked about scholarships. One other way you can get funding is through fellowships. Mj, why don't you tell our audience about fellowships?
Speaker 1:yeah. So fellowships are more, I would say, when you are not really a master's program but more in a doctoral program. Fellowships are really considered when you are doing now your research part of the doctoral program and you're looking to study different certain things, depending on the fellowship that you're offered. And each fellowship is a different type of grant per se and you have to do some, you have to meet some type of requirement to obtain the fellowship itself as well.
Speaker 1:But fellowships, so they're, they're different types and I know that sounds really really complicated, but there are some that you're offered, I already said, in the doctoral programs, but some are just there for you to. They're kind of like a cushion to help you kind of get through your first couple of years and you can use it depending on what year you choose. A lot of fellowships are offered towards the end, in the beginning. The end more so for you to finish your dissertation and your dissertation in your defense, but also in the beginning to help you get acclimated to the doctoral program. But there are fellowships specifically towards like different parts of the research that you're doing, not necessarily on your topic but related, which also have to do with that as well. I hope that wasn't too complicated.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know, when the time comes that you know if any of you out there are applying to grad school or considering it. You can find out more details and clarify those things with your advisor in the grad program or the admissions advisor even before applying to the grad program. Most graduate programs do info sessions, so you can attend their info sessions and learn about not just the program but what funding opportunities there are, specifically like scholarships and fellowships that are offered within the department or within the institution. So these are things that you know.
Speaker 2:You don't have to know all things about scholarships, fellowships and loans before you apply to grad school. We just want you to be aware that these are options for you and to do your research when you're applying to grad program.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course, yeah. So with financing, you also want to think about if we're going with grad school where do you want?
Speaker 1:to go to grad school Right, and what that looks like. Because location has a lot to do with it, and if you're looking for programs that are more specialized in a certain area, you may only find them in a certain amount of institutions, right. That may not be where you're currently located or where you want to stay located. Right. A lot of the time, grad students move across the country or even internationally, based on the type of program they want to do and where they want to go to school as well. But with that, you have to consider location, right. Are you going to have to move for grad school? What is that going to look like? What is that going to do to your current life? If you have a job, if you have like ties to the community and different things like that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's a big change. I mean, a lot of the students and clients we work with are willingly applying to grad programs in different states or, like MJ said, internationally, and so sometimes it's because they're fueled by the actual program, the mission of the program and what they're going to gain from that program. Other times it's fueled by location, like they actually want to live in that, absolutely in that place, and so, or maybe they're going back home to where their family is right, like maybe they moved out for college and now they want to go back home to where their family is and do graduate school there.
Speaker 2:So you know it could be also just if there's a particular location that is going to suit you better right now in your lifetime, looking at what schools there are in that location and if there's an appropriate program based on your interests.
Speaker 1:Yeah, location is always kind of I think it's a topic that you got to consider, like different individuals in your life and what that kind of looks like, because sometimes grad programs you know they may disrupt what your current living situation, whatever that looks like for you, and with that comes huge life changes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, grad school, well, I think grad school certain people have a certain image of what that looks like, whether that's like a master's degree and it's a temporary two year type thing, or it's a PhD or a longer, different type of doctorate degree that you really do have to not give up your current lifestyle but make heavy changes that really do put you in a different track and in a different environment. Right, that disrupt what you're currently doing. So, with that, you really want to think about who's in your micro right, in your micro environments your friends, your family, your partners, the individuals who are important to you, and what does that look like? Right, not only then, but what are the things that are important to you? Right, if we're going into an extensive grad program, you might feel like your life needs to be consumed of that. Right? Let's say you enter a PhD program and now you're in it, you're taking your first two years of classes and there's so much heavy weight on top of your shoulders. But guess what?
Speaker 1:You're still human. You want to make sure that you're taking care of yourself and that you're still eating, you're sleeping, you're doing whatever self care that looks like, but you're also still communicating with those in your environment and your life is not fully revolving around that graduate program, because you're still you at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:You are still you but, on that note, you do grow a lot in a graduate program. So I know that something that I experienced, and some of my other cohort members have experienced too, is like some of the relationships before graduate school we grew out of while we were in grad school because, like friendships or maybe romantic relationships, whatever it is but people in our lives that suited us at that stage in our life or we were more similar, we had more similarities and interests and things like that that shifted as we started to evolve in our grad programs. So it's kind of it can be bittersweet. I actually did lose a friend in that process, but that's okay. Like I did process that already while I was in grad school and that's okay. But it did happen just because you know, we took on different like pathways in our lifetime and who I was becoming in graduate school was no longer aligned with that person.
Speaker 1:Oh, I resonate with that so much. Oh, as an undergrad, I had, I think, a lot of like I don't know that I can call them like lifetime friends, but you know, like how intense you are like as a friend at that age. Yeah, so I was in grad school, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, Okay, I really made like I don't want to call them friends but like life colleagues. Yeah, yeah, they're like life colleagues, people who you just know and you see they're going to be in your life for like the long term and the long run and in your career and you grow so much, you learn so much about you. You, just like you said, you outgrow certain people and certain relationships and that's absolutely okay. But it's also something you want to be able to process and just be aware of, because this program and we're making this program sound like any program, since so absolutely life changing your life.
Speaker 1:For some it really is, yeah, because you're well immersed in this field, but it's something you really want to think about and consider and what that may look like, like also to your work, right in your work environments. You're going to outgrow maybe some of the relationships you have at work. You're going to be in a different level of knowledge, of understanding, not saying you're going to be the smartest person in the room and that's what you consider yourself and you're higher than everybody else.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:It's just that you see things in a different sense and in a different light. You're just in a different place.
Speaker 2:It just impacts even relationships with like immediate family.
Speaker 1:Let's say that yes absolutely.
Speaker 2:Maybe they like, maybe they're still part of your life. It's not such an extreme like change in your relationships, but the dynamic shift because you, like MJ said, you're shifting your perspective, because you're growing as a person, so you start seeing things differently and that impacts the way you act or behave or the dynamics that you have with people who are still constant in your life throughout all this. But it's still going to be a different relationship.
Speaker 1:And I also want to say like, depending on what you study, individuals in your life may disagree or have a different stance on it and that's those are complicated conversations to kind of navigate.
Speaker 1:I remember being, when I was making this decision to be a counselor, a lot of, a lot of the people around me didn't really understand or had concerns with, like, the mental health field and what that looked like and the difference between a therapist and a counselor and my role in higher education versus, like me, working in a mental health institute and disagreeing with like mental health and not disagreeing with mental health but disagreeing with the thought of mental health and how it didn't exist. And there were so many different complications where I kind of felt like my identities, where I could be like a grad student and fully immersed in being a counselor at school but at home I had to really not be that person and I had to be like home MJ and that looked very different and it was like two identities fighting within each other in the same person and that was really really hard because I couldn't be my true self and I couldn't really just be me and be excited and want to share things.
Speaker 1:It just, you know, like I said, two identities of herself fighting within the same person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that does sound really tough. How did you navigate that?
Speaker 1:It was a lot of educating as a lot of educating and understanding like where my family was coming from and the people around me and saying, like you know they. Again, I'm not saying you're at a higher level of education than anyone or you're outsmarting anybody, but it's just really like having to understand where people are coming from, what is their understanding of the world around them and your current understanding and how that's growing and how you're.
Speaker 1:You know you're in grad school, you're researching, you're writing papers. You're understanding the world in a completely different sense. So for me it was a lot of educating my family on what mental health, my family and friends on like, what is mental health? What does that look like in the United States? What does that look like with the population I work?
Speaker 2:with.
Speaker 1:And college students in saying like depression is real right, yeah. Like it's a legitimate thing. There's a, you know, mental health, a Department of Mental Health here in the US, in California. This is what it says and you know, ptsd exists. Anxiety looks like this in a person and it was taking a lot of time to educate but also be patient because, it was a.
Speaker 1:it's a foreign language to my family, who is Central American and to understand these concepts right, being first gen, this was something they've never experienced. I've never encountered before, so it just had I had to learn right along the way, while teaching them and just being very patient. But it's always going with the mindset of like, having an open mindset and wanting to help others also educate themselves too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's a big, big responsibility. If, if, if we want to use that word, I mean it could look different for everybody, right you?
Speaker 1:know, does that mean that?
Speaker 2:everything you learn, you have to take back and like, take it upon yourself too. Yes, right, like, educate those around you because everyone's dynamics are different. But if, if you do have that relationship, I remember going back and sharing concepts learned with my family.
Speaker 1:I did that a lot in undergrad. I remember Me too. It was so much fun. I just liked being the teacher, I mean it makes a lot of sense now. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I think that's maybe more so in our nature and then maybe the relationships and dynamics we have within the within our family and friends. But that doesn't mean you have to like not everyone has to take that upon themselves to do that right. But it is just being aware that if you do go to a graduate program it can shift how you see the world, which then impacts the relationships that you have. So just being prepared for that and you navigate that however you see fit with within your immediate circle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of graduate programs put like put a little bit of pressure on the students and the candidates in this program, so like you're not going out there in the world and making change and you're responsible for a lot of different things and you're the new generation. It's just a lot of responsibility. So you really just awareness is honestly like the best strength and skill set I think you can have ever as a human being.
Speaker 1:Just being aware, yeah, and with graduate degrees remember I always say this you're a societal educator and it's definitely a role that people not a role because it's not an official title, but it's something that individuals look up to. So remember that. You know that's something that individuals see you as too, so you will again. The awareness piece.
Speaker 2:Exactly and with all this that we're taught. We talked a lot about, like navigating within our immediate circles, how that looks like, also considering your support system. So, knowing going into graduate school, do you do you feel like maybe the people around you are going to be supportive or not? And just so that you're prepared, for if you're not getting the support that you may need, you can actually be really challenging, because grad school alone itself is already a challenging time because you're being pushed and challenged to and to grow, not only in your field, but just as a person you're growing and developing. So it's already a challenging time. So, thinking about do you have a support system? And if you don't, what can you do within your grad program? Are there counseling services on campus? Are there advisors and mentors that you can connect with to kind of create that support system for yourself, if you're not getting that from the friends and the family that you already have in your life?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know I've been recently talking to a lot of grad students who are in different parts of their programs and in different programs and they they share a lot that you know. Sometimes it's not even like that external, it's the internal that sometimes can be really really tough to navigate as a support system. Because you walk into, you know this program knowing that like, hey, I'm going to have advisors, I'm going to have individuals around me who are going to support me. You may it may be cohort based, right. And sometimes, again, you're competing against the people in your cohort, the people in your classes, different people around you, right? So they may not be the most friendly and supportive and cheer you on, right.
Speaker 1:And sometimes your relationships with the advisors may not look like what you may anticipate. And how do you navigate that? And it's again like you said, it's understanding who is in your support system. How can you change your advisor, if that's an option, right? How can you work on your communication skills, both ways to develop and foster a different type of relationship. Who are the people you can go to? Or faculty you're resonating with peers you get along with. Maybe they're in a different program or disciplinary field.
Speaker 1:So it's it's thinking like, yes, externally, but also internally, that that situation may not look like what you anticipate. Again, we're not trying to scare you right away from grad school, but just that awareness piece that sometimes things may not always be what they seem. And this is where the growing really happens. And finding out like, okay, how do I navigate the situation? How do I find a different advisor? How, like, what faculty do I resonate with that I can go? Who are like my safe people, right, that I can really count on to have my back and just hear me out when I'm, when I'm a little down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so these are some of the many things to consider when applying to graduate programs or thinking about whether grad school is the right fit for you. One other aspect to consider is and this goes back to some of the financial pieces we were talking about is will your program allow time to work If you're already so? It depends on what your current situation is, but if you're already a working individual and you want to go back and get a graduate degree, are you going to be able to continue your job or would you need to leave it? Or, if you're a recent college grad going directly into graduate school, are you going to be able to work to take care of yourself plus get experience in the world of work while you're studying in grad school? Because I know that my grad program actually there was no time to work. Nobody was.
Speaker 2:There might have been a couple of folks over the years who have held a job while they were in my grad program, but overall we didn't work separate jobs. However, we did get paid for our internships. We had internships that we were, our department supported us and getting for both years. There were two different internships, so we could get two different experiences and each one was paid, so that did definitely help. However, not all grad programs are going to pay for an internship or are going to either place you in an internship or offer a paid internship, and if that's the case, are you going to have the time to work?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm smiling because I think I experienced every single thing except for being paid. Well, and I'll tell you a little bit more about that. But I quickly want to poke around Arminate what was your format? What did the format look like for your grad school? Because, as we talked about in the previous episode, every grad program looks a little bit different in your format. So tell me, did you go to school five days a week? Was it all the time? What did that really look like for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. We did not go five days a week in terms of class, but I was pretty much on campus five days a week because my internships, so normally classes were afternoon to evening. It was like a four to seven and then a seven to 10. And those would happen maybe like three times a week, but it was like each class was once a week but we were in like three or four different classes. So about three times a week or so we were in class.
Speaker 2:But then I just remember being on campus all the time, like I feel like I lived there just because I would go to my internship sites in the mornings, then go to go to class. So imagine my days were like 14 hour days going to my internship at 9am or so and then working until around four and then going to class four to 10, back to back classes. That's how it worked. I know it sounds really intense, but and it was. But I loved it because I loved what I was studying, but I was on campus all the time. But you know it was. It was a combination of different, different things classes and internship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. My program was very similar. And I asked because when we're talking about like individuals don't have time to work, we got, we got to know what that looks like. Right, and some people, you know, the weekend sometimes is only time they work. And then my grant program. I know a lot of people actually did hold full time jobs because they were parents, they were the co contributors and the financial responsibility people in their family, so they had to. My program, very similar to yours, armin a, was actually six to nine. So the graduate counseling sorry, the general counseling psychology program, my classes were six to 9pm on different days and I went year round, so even in the summer. So in the summer I went four times. Four times to school Monday through Thursday, never Fridays and Saturdays and Sundays, depending on what I, how I chose my classes, I would actually take a one unit course. But going back to internships and things like that, I just told you six to nine.
Speaker 1:I had one paid internship in graduate school and I took a second to just really kind of remember what that looked like for me. So my one paid internship was 20 hours a week and it was during the day, so I would start at 730. And then my schedule just depended on, like, the days I had class in the semester, so usually from 730 to four, and then I would break them up Monday through Friday, the 20 hours, and what that looked like. Some days five hours a week, some days four hours a week, sometimes a little bit more than 20 hours. That was my one paid internship. I had three other opportunities, three other internships, so I did a total of, I think, five or six. But while getting paid I was also doing a TA ship. But guess what? I wasn't paid because my TA ship counted as course credit. So we're talking about loans and how to pay for grad school. So I would use my course credit to be able to teach. And guess what? Mj technically, technically right, I had to take out a loan for graduate school was paying to do the TA ship.
Speaker 1:And another opportunity I was offered as a student success academic success coordinator coach I don't really remember the title, but I worked with students to help them in the academic affairs side, academic success advisor or something like that was my role.
Speaker 1:I was also using course credits, so I didn't get paid for that. I used course credits, so I used part of my loan, so I'm essentially paying for that internship. And then, lastly, I had an unpaid internship in grad school where, on my free time right when I wasn't in school or sleeping, or in the other internship I was working with the grad department themselves and establishing because I was their first ever intern They'd never had an intern before and I was the first one to kind of like figure out what that looked like and I was the graduate student advisor and peer mentor for my entire department. Wow yeah, so internships look very different in grad school and I made all the conscious decisions to know that I was going to pay for some of them, for course, credit, and in return I got the experience which has allowed me different opportunities in my career now. But it's something to be well aware of and to what that looks like for you too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know I have a family member who studied social work and in her social work program they required her to have an internship. But they didn't help place her, they didn't help her find it. So the reality was she had to make sure she found an internship. When you apply and you interview and you get hired, there was no guidance from the department as to maybe if they had a network or a connection of internship sites or anything like that.
Speaker 2:It was like you're on your own but you got to find it, otherwise she wouldn't be able to take the class that was associated with her internship on time and that would delay her graduation in the graduate program.
Speaker 1:I completely forgot to say that my program does not require an internship. They encourage an internship based on the program and what we're studying, and mine was not placement. I had to apply for the paid internship and obtain the opportunity right, be offered the internship opportunity, and for the other ones I was actually like nominated or asked to do those type of roles. So that looked a little bit different, just because of the network I had built for myself. But honestly, I didn't know really what I was doing as a first-gen grad student. I just thought I was like, oh, that's cool, like people keep asking me to do stuff.
Speaker 1:Honestly now I can be like oh wow, I did a really good job, not knowing really how to navigate the situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when I say placement, we did still have to interview with all the different sites, but it was structured in that the program had its network of sites that stay like every year with place interns at, and so we would go interview with all of them and then they would do like a matching based on our interests and our skill sets and what the internship practice.
Speaker 2:That was actually pretty legit. So that's where my love of career counseling started, because that my second year in graduate school was, when I had my internship at Seasons Career Center and this version of Arminay was born.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the pay-in internship that I'm talking about was at the Career and Professional Development Center, so I love that.
Speaker 2:That's amazing, yeah, so, with that said, we've talked a lot about graduate school today. Thanks for everyone to consider. As you're maybe considering embarking on this journey, we have a couple of FAQs that we normally get from our clients about graduate school. So one of them is can I go directly into a doctoral program from undergrad MJ? You're taking a deep breath.
Speaker 1:My short and quick answer is yes, but it's complicated, it's not impossible. So, yes, you can definitely go from an undergraduate program to a graduate program. However, again, you're going to as we talked about previously in the other episode you're growing up against a different set of candidates, right, you may go be up against individuals of a master's degree, different levels of work experience, different kind of just world experience really, and they do really look for academic and research experience and that is something they really pick for. So if you know in your undergrad program that you do want a doctoral program, whether that be right after or sometime in your future, start thinking about research and how you can get involved in undergrad and still carry that after too. So, yes, you can definitely go from undergrad to doctoral program. Really focus on academic field work and research experience. That's what they're really looking for and again, it all depends on the program you want to go to.
Speaker 2:Definitely. And the next FAQ that we normally hear is should I take a gap year? I can't tell you how many times I've had that. I probably every session when I'm talking to a student about graduate school, especially my law students, my pre-law students probably every single session.
Speaker 2:It comes up like what about gap year? Should I take one? What are your thoughts on it? So I will definitely say that, again, everybody's journey is different and you'll have to do what works for you. I know I didn't take a gap year going from undergrad to grad.
Speaker 1:There are pros and cons to that.
Speaker 2:A pros to gap year definitely include growing, gaining more experience as a professional, growing just as a person. Having more life experience before going into graduate school, maybe you know yourself better and know more of what you want. I always encourage my students, if you are considering a gap year, it gives you more time to even try out the field a little bit like as an entry level position or maybe job shadowing or unpaid internships, things like that to try out the industry to see if you actually like the work before you commit to a graduate program in that field.
Speaker 2:But besides the experience and exposure and growth as a person, it also gives you time to prepare your application materials, which we talked about how intense that can be in our last episode. What are your thoughts on gap year as MJ?
Speaker 1:Honestly, I shy away from this question because everybody always asks me what that looked like for me, and I took 21 days off, which is freaking intense.
Speaker 2:That's not a gap year, I know that's not even a month?
Speaker 1:That's not even a month.
Speaker 2:But gap years are extremely important.
Speaker 1:I know, armin and I, this term gap year we're trying to move away from, because a gap is a hole, right, it's like an empty space, and you don't have empty spaces in your life, right, the year itself. We like to call it and refer to it as growth years or growth time because, absolutely exactly what you were saying right you grow during this time. You discover who you are a little bit more, you gain more self-awareness and personal insight, you understand the world a little bit differently and guess what? Maybe your values have changed, your career aspirations have changed, your shifted or priorities look a little bit different in this time. So gap year and growth time growth years.
Speaker 1:Whatever that looks like looks different and, honestly, if it works and you're able to do it, I would encourage you to do so. It just is going to give you a greater sense of self-awareness and it'll help inform your decision a little bit more. And that's what we want you to do, right, we want you to make informed career decisions. Now, what we don't want you to do is use this time to kind of like freak out and think like grad school is your only option because you don't know anything else but school. Yeah, so really do take this time to. If you're in like the indecisiveness, maybe you do need a couple months. Right, it doesn't always have to be a year, it could be less, it could be more. Take that time to really again weigh out the decisions, weigh out what you're looking for and make the best informed career decision, because only you know what that looks like for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And it might sound scary to think, oh, if I take some gap time, I'm going to and my values change and my plans change and I'm not going to know what I want to do, and then right now I have this plan. But that's okay, that's how life is. Anyway, there's always going to be times where your values and your plans change. So if that does happen, that's okay. You'll figure it out along the way. But at the end of the day, the answer to this question is there's no formula. You've got to do what works for you. It worked for me to go from undergrad to grad. If I had taken some gap time, it still would have worked fine right.
Speaker 2:Because I would have gone in the experience and the growth that we're talking about here. So either way whatever works for you is the right answer.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and again, this will help you develop your professional experience in your portfolio in a way right, it helps you build a sounder sense of self. But remember that, no matter if you go to grad programs or not, you're going to start exploring different parts of the career, of the different careers in the career world and the world of work and different professions. So programs can definitely help you enhance what that search looks like. Narrow down your options is one as well, but it could also help you explore different fields that you maybe never even thought of or that are absolutely unrelated to your undergrad studies, which is 100,000% okay. So remember, with grad programs and anything you do, there's a lot of room for exploration.
Speaker 1:And that's one thing we're always going to encourage for you to explore, because life is filled with learning and we want you to keep learning, so keep exploring.